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Dopamine Detox: How To Stop Overstimulation Ruining Your Life - Hector Hughes

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Hector HughesguestAli Abdaalhost

Jul 27, 20231h 35mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

110 min read · 21,666 words

0:00 – 1:16
Intro
1. HHHector Hughes
  It's interesting where we can go through these periods of feeling like we're fine and we don't have any issues, but actually deep within us, there are these traumas that are just waiting to come out at some other point in life.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  All right, so this episode is all about burnout, the society that we live in, the overstimulation that we get from the phones and from social media and from our work, and this constant desire to be constantly on and never really switching off. And so today's guest is very fun because his name is Hector Hughes, and he basically specializes in helping people do digital detoxes. He had his own experience with burnout, and now he built this company that helps people unplug and go off the grid.
3. HHHector Hughes
  The difference between people when they checked in and checked out was crazy. They looked 10 years younger. Not only do you kind of changeable section on that, but you also get all the benefits of the kind of deep sense of calm and relaxation.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  I went to one of their cabins in the woods about a year ago, and TBH, I didn't take it seriously, and I just sort of still had my phone and stuff. But now half of my team have done this cabin in the woods detox thing, and they all swear by it. And so one of my action points from this episode is to actually, you know, just try and go somewhere and turn my phone off for like three days and just see what happens.
5. HHHector Hughes
  You could ask yourself an unusual question, which is like, how, how am I really feeling? You know? Like, how am I doing? If the answer is not good, then, you know, perhaps it's time to change.
1:16 – 4:18
Book
1. AAAli Abdaal
  Hey, friends. So before we get into the episode, I've got some very exciting news that I'm finally able to share with you, and that is that I have written a book. Now, if you've been following the podcast for a while, you'll probably know from some of my conversations with authors in particular that it's been quite the journey over the last three years. This has been the single hardest thing that I've ever done in my life. But after three years, it's finally here, and I'm delighted to announce that my book, Feel-Good Productivity, is now available for pre-order. It's gonna be published later this year, and you can find a link down in the video description, or if you head over to feelgoodproductivity.com, all one word, uh, you can check out the website, and the website is absolutely sick. Now, the central idea for the book came from a realization that I had while I was working as a doctor a few years ago and trying to juggle everything with my YouTube channel and my business, and I kind of realized that the secret to productivity isn't discipline. It's in fact joy. And sure, hard work and grit and willpower and determination and all of those things are good in small doses. But for most of us, they tend not to be the sustainable route to consistent productivity. But I realized through a lot of experimentation and then diving into a bunch of research that actually the secret to productivity that feels enjoyable and meaningful and sustainable is to find a way to make your work feel good, to find a way to make it feel energizing and enjoyable. And if you do that, you'll be more productive in your work, but you'll also have way more energy to give to the other things in your life that matter to you. And this isn't just my own personal experience, but it's an idea that's been validated by a bunch of studies in the fields of psychology and neuroscience as well. And so the writing process of the book over the last three years has involved reading hundreds of research papers, interviewing academics and experts in the fields of, like, psychology and procrastination and motivation, and spending years trying to condense it into a format and cut out all the fluff and trying to do it in a way that's, like, engaging and actionable at the same time. So that's what the book is about. It is a science-backed guide on how to do more of what matters to you in a way that feels enjoyable and meaningful and sustainable. And if you enjoy this podcast, then I can basically guarantee that you will love the stuff that's in the book. Uh, there are nine chapters. Each chapter has six different experiments in it that you can try out in your own life. And so there are 54 different experiments, strategies that you can apply to your life starting from as soon as you read the book. And the idea is that you apply these, and you see if they work for you. And over time, you'll build your own feel-good productivity system. Now, if you do decide to pre-order the book, then that would be awesome because firstly, it helps me out, and secondly, I think the ideas in this book can be genuinely life-changing. And if you pre-order the book, it will be delivered straight to you on release date later this year, uh, to your Kindle or your Audible account, and I'm narrating the audiobook, by the way, uh, or to the hardback, hardback version of the book if you prefer to read physical copies of books. And if you do pre-order, then please do be sure to save your receipts because I'm gonna be announcing a bunch of really exciting pre-order bonuses exclusively and only for people who pre-order the book. And so final thing before we get into the episode is just wanna say a massive thank you to you guys. By watching the videos, by subscribing on social media, by listening to the podcast, you have made this book possible. Um, without you guys supporting the channel and everything that I do, there's no way Penguin would've come knocking and been like, "Hey, do you wanna write a book?" And so I'm like, this has been, like, such a rewarding experience, and I could not have, uh, come to this point without your support. So I just wanted to say massive thank you from the bottom of my heart for that. So that's it from me. Do check out the book if you like at feelgoodproductivity.com. It'll be linked down below in the podcast description and the show notes as well. But now let's get into the podcast episode itself.
4:18 – 7:01
Your experience with burnout
1. AAAli Abdaal
  All right, Hector, welcome to the podcast.
2. HHHector Hughes
  Ali, great to be here.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  So you have a personal experience with burnout. What's the, what's the story?
4. HHHector Hughes
  Well, after university, I joined a, a tech startup. Honestly, it was the only place, uh, I got a job, so applied to a whole bunch of places, didn't get any grad schemes, and then a friend of mine was like, "Oh, why don't you go try and... a startup?" So applied to some startups. One gave me a job and joined as employee number nine, and it was iPad till system, so if you go into a restaurant or a cafe and use an iPad for the till. And we spent the next three years doing the whole high growth, international expansion, did a whole bunch of roles during that time. Fantastic experience in many ways. Uh, but, you know, we also got a lot of the things wrong that startups tend to do. So the culture was a bit of a mess. Product was a bit of a mess. So I just started to get more and more worn down by that experience and found that in 2019, after three years of doing that, I just started to really lose my joy for life.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
6. HHHector Hughes
  So, you know, started to find I was laughing less, stressed more, all of that, all of that kind of thing. And, uh, I think there was just, like, a deep dissatisfaction 'cause, 'cause burnout can show itself in, in many different ways, right? You can have the complete, uh, you know, breakdown or, or actually there's just this kind of slow grinding down, which I think is maybe more people are experiencing and, and perhaps not recognizing that that also needs to change, right?
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
8. HHHector Hughes
  So for me personally, in 2019, really felt like I needed a change and didn't, didn't know what to do. And a friend of mine recommended a silent retreat in the Himalayas, and, uh, I, I, I laughed it off much like, much like you have. And, uh, I thought, you know... I just thought it was the kind of thing I couldn't do, you know? It's like, uh, what will the guys at work think? I think I... You know, in some ways I was self-assured about them, but in some ways I really wasn't, and I had this, like, not quite feeling comfortable in myself. So really In hindsight, a lot of what I did was dictated by, you know, what other people would think, and that was just something that didn't feel accessible to me. A couple of months went by and, you know, I, I just became more and more, uh, just, just dissatisfied, and eventually I was like, "Look, I may as well go and try it."
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
10. HHHector Hughes
  So September 2019, flew to the Himalayas, and it was this Buddhist temple on top of a mountain, and the best thing about it is when you get there, they take your phone off you. You spend 10 days cut off from the outside world. So came back from that, you know, completely transformed, and very cliche, but quit my job a, a week later and to start Unplugged, which I know we can go on to talk about later.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Damn. Okay. So, uh, what, what... I guess, what sort of symptoms were you experiencing, and what are the signs now that you've actually been working in the burnout industry, I guess? Like, what are the signs that someone watching or listening to this
7:01 – 18:05
What are the signs of burnout
1. AAAli Abdaal
  might look out for to test or to assess whether they are on the road to burnout or, like, burned out or... Yeah.
2. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. So, so after, you know, really kind of speaking to a lot of people and also reflecting on myself, I, I think what it is, you just stop feeling like yourself, you know? Like, th- there's... We, we can all think back to when we're, like, feeling at our best and kind of freest and all of that kind of thing, and obviously life gets in the way, but you just feel, like, out of sorts, you know? You feel... You wake up every day and you're not excited, you know? And I think that is, that is a big sign that, uh, that you're burnt out, and then that can go so much worse, and you can get people who are fully, you know, stressed and having a breakdown. But really it's when, you know, you are not yourself and you are not your best. And I think it's so normalized these days. We're obviously gonna go on and talk about phones, et cetera, but I think the, the state that we're now in is we are permanently out of sorts.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
4. HHHector Hughes
  And I think that's what's w- we're not recognizing. So I would say that, you know, low-key burnout is, is very widespread. I would say most people are a little bit burnt out. Some people are very burnt out.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
6. HHHector Hughes
  Most people are a little bit burnt out.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. But, like, I'm gonna push back on this a little bit. Su- surely w- waking up and not feeling excited, I imagine, like most people who have jobs don't wake up feeling excited. Does that mean that they are low-key burnt out or just that they don't really enjoy their job?
8. HHHector Hughes
  Well, the question is, is it do you not feel excited on Monday morning or is it do you not feel excited every day, you know? And I think most people are just not, you know... They're just not kind of the... excited by life, their life, and that is... goes on for months, you know? And I think people feel... You hear phrases like, "I'm stuck in a rut," you know?
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
10. HHHector Hughes
  And, like, w- what is that? Is, do you think that's a healthy way of being?
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Uh, absolutely not, but I wonder if it... Like, I've always been a bit confused about the word burnout because to, to an extent it's become a little bit medicalized. I think the WHO has called burnout, like... It's a, a burnout epidemic or some- some- something to that effect. And then the symptoms of burnout often overlap with the symptoms of depression and, like, low mood generally. But it's like, at what point is this a normal part of the human experience that like, "Ugh, you know, I just don't enjoy my job," versus, "Oh, this is something that I need to do something about"? And I've, I've never quite understood the, the distinction and at what point someone should, I guess, intervene, if that makes sense.
12. HHHector Hughes
  For sure. Well, I... One thing I would challenge there is, uh, the normal human experience.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
14. HHHector Hughes
  And I think that's changed, and that's perhaps not in a healthy place right now. Um, but the other thing I would say is, is what gets you to that point of just, like, not being excited and being, uh, just dissatisfied with your life-
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
16. HHHector Hughes
  ... is just a slow accumulation of stress, you know? It's an accumulation of, of things.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
18. HHHector Hughes
  It's not just like, hey, you're doing something you don't like. Because actually when we're functioning at our best and we do something that, like, we don't like, then, you know, it's, it's kind of obvious and we change it. But I think the... what's happening slowly over time is we're just being ground down by, you know, modern society really.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
20. HHHector Hughes
  And it's... A, a lot of people do jobs they hate for 40, 50 years.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
22. HHHector Hughes
  Uh, and maybe they... maybe it's not a super stressful job, so they don't completely flame out. I think even the phrase burnout, right?
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
24. HHHector Hughes
  Is, is very-
25. AAAli Abdaal
  It's quite, like, intense
26. HHHector Hughes
  ... it's very, it's very intense.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
28. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. And so, so you think it needs to be this, like, complete psychotic breakdown, which obviously does happen in the extreme cases. But I think, you know, like, what is a phrase, right? It, it's really as far as it's useful. So it's a tool. It's ha- it's, you know, allowing us to reflect on work-
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
30. HHHector Hughes
  ... and how we're doing with work. And so within that, I think it's perhaps more productive to have a wider definition or, or a wider interpretation of it, right?
18:05 – 25:07
3 types of burnout
1. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. So I've got like, um... In my, in my upcoming book we've got three chapters which are about overcoming burnout, and one of the, one of my theses is, for this is- But I, I, I think there are three, three kind of types of burnout when I did a bunch of reading of the literature and sort of thinking of, of personal experience and stuff. The first one is, um, overexertion burnout, where you're just sort of-
2. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
3. AAAli Abdaal
  ... constantly on the move and constantly on the grind, as it were, and just sort of exerting yourself too much. The second type is, uh, depletion burnout, where you've never... you haven't quite taken the time to recharge your energy. And I think that's the type where a holiday really helps 'cause, "Oh, I feel all, all of a sudden recharged and rejuvenated." But then the third type is, um, what I call misalignment burnout, where everything might be fine, but you're just sort of chronically, over time, working towards a future that is not actually particularly aligned with where you, you authentically want to be. And even if from the outside life looks good and it's like you should be living the dream and stuff, when you start feeling that chronic level of like, "Ah, I'm, I'm not really sure what the point is," that's a sign that maybe there's some sort of misalignment between your day-to-day right now, like your current actions, and the future that you actually want for yourself, but a future that you've authentically chosen intrinsically rather than one that's been foisted upon you from the outside. Um, does that vibe with your experience at all?
4. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah, 100%. I think the, you know, what we spoke a- about earlier, which is, you know, burnout maybe in two broader sense is when we're not ourselves, right? We're not our kind of happier selves. Read a couple of books on happiness. One was, um, Flow by Mihaly-
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
6. HHHector Hughes
  ... something or other.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. [laughs]
8. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs] The other one's called The Happiness Hypothesis. I read these about the same time.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
10. HHHector Hughes
  And they both made the point that h- happiness comes for them when everything in your life is aligned, you know? So what you're doing w- in your job, who you spend your time with, your values, et cetera. And so I guess it's that sense of when you are not happy, then by definition you're unhappy, right? And so I think misalignment really, you know, breeds unhappiness and th- you know, that causes the other types, right? Like-
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
12. HHHector Hughes
  ... either overstrained because you feel like you're trying too hard against something. You know, when you really love something, it doesn't feel like work at all, you know? It feels like play. And so I think those other types of burnout perhaps come from, you know, something being misaligned or something being wrong. Uh, so I think that, you know, it, it's really just about looking at the person and it's like, "Am I happy right now?" You know?
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Is, is, is that the right... Like I, I feel like happy h- often has like very like, "Oh, well, I'm, I'm happy when I'm drinking with the boys or when I'm playing video..." Like-
14. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. Well, I, I think, you know, every word is different to everyone, right? And so I think again, it's like what's useful?
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
16. HHHector Hughes
  And you're right. You're right. I think happy, you know, what is happiness is such a contentious issue, isn't it? [laughs]
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yes. And I, I don't think we're gonna solve it in this conversation.
18. HHHector Hughes
  So perhaps content is a better word.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
20. HHHector Hughes
  Right?
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, I like content and tranquil.
22. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Like yeah, serene. [laughs]
24. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. Or you could ask yourself a more unusual question, which is like-
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
26. HHHector Hughes
  ... how, how am I really feeling, you know? Like how am I doing? And if the answer is not good, then, you know, perhaps it's time to change.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm. How am I really doing? That's what like, that's what Steve Bartlett likes to ask his guests to be like-
28. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs]
29. AAAli Abdaal
  ... "How are you really?" And then they'll just start crying. It's like-
30. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
25:07 – 32:20
Struggling to have feelings
1. AAAli Abdaal
  I'm not particularly good at feeling my feelings.
2. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
3. AAAli Abdaal
  This is a, a, a thing that I'm working [laughs] yeah.
4. HHHector Hughes
  I had the same-
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, okay
6. HHHector Hughes
  ... I had the same feedback recently-
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, interesting
8. HHHector Hughes
  ... from my girlfriend. So [laughs]
9. AAAli Abdaal
  What was the, what, what was the story, if you don't mind sharing? [laughs]
10. HHHector Hughes
  Um, gosh, a couple of occasions. She's, she's brought it up a few times-
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
12. HHHector Hughes
  ... I think. A- as has, uh ... I started seeing a therapist recently, which has been transformational.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Cool.
14. HHHector Hughes
  She brought up the same, challenged me on the same thing.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
16. HHHector Hughes
  Uh, and one of my closest friends did as well, so I've heard it from a few different angles.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Nice.
18. HHHector Hughes
  Um, and I think people have, like, encouraged me to be more emotional in situations.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
20. HHHector Hughes
  And I've reflected on it and really kind of thought about it. So for example, just, just little things like, uh, my parents' cat died, who I spent a lot of time with in my childhood. And I, like, told my girlfriend. She was like, "Well, you're really not emotional, are you?" And, um, I don't know. Like, part of me like, feels a little bit like I should be, you know, crying. I, you know, loved the cat, great cat.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Of course.
22. HHHector Hughes
  And there are, there are times when, you know, I, I do cry as well. So I think ... But yeah, I think I, I have been reflecting about this. I'm like, "Gosh, is there something broken in me?"
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
24. HHHector Hughes
  And actually, I, I really like ... Again, I think stoics get a bit of a bad reputation in society, 'cause it's like, you know, just kinda get on with it-type thing. But I don't think it's about that. I think it's about reframing a situation. You know? There is good in every situation, and I think if I look at myself, when am I at my best, it's when I have that kind of, you know, glass-half-full mentality of like, "Yeah, sure, this is ... Something's going wrong, but like, we'll learn from this," you know?
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
26. HHHector Hughes
  There's a great Jocko Willink video where, uh, it's just a three-minute video about good. It's like, you know, one of his guys comes to him with an issue, and he's always just like, "Well, good." Well, and, and this guy's like, "I, I know what you're gonna say to me," and he's like, "You're, you're just gonna say, 'Good.'" And he's like, "Yeah. Well, it is good." Great video. Uh, but I think that really applies where, like, you can have this, this glass-half-full mentality, because there is good in every situation. I look at my own life and, like, where I've really, you know, got it wrong. Like, I had ... I'm 28 now and had a decade from 15 to 25 when didn't take my life too seriously. I drank a lot, done a lot of stupid stuff. And actually, it was really getting it wrong that is kind of fueling, you know, everything I'm doing now and, and the positive changes I've made in my life. And I think if I hadn't been ... if I'd been a bit less stupid in those days, then the reaction wouldn't have been as, uh, as kind of extreme, to some extent. Well, extreme in a positive way, you know? Like, I've really taken the time to, uh, like, learn myself, you know, give myself the tools to be happy, I think, or be content.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
28. HHHector Hughes
  Be content. So-
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
30. HHHector Hughes
  ... yeah. How about you? How does, how does it show up?
32:20 – 36:06
Trauma and psychosexual therapy
1. AAAli Abdaal
  of that land for you?
2. HHHector Hughes
  100%. I think, I think that's a really interesting point, uh, for a lot of entrepreneurs, myself included, because, you know, people ask me why am I doing this? And it's very much, you know, I, I really care about the mission we're, we're driving and, you know, I really want... I think society's a lot more malleable than we think, and we have a real opportunity to kinda change the direction of that. So I do care about all of that. But then if I'm really being honest with myself, there is that little bit of like, you know, needing to show I'm remarkable, you know? And I think that's a very human thing, uh, because-
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
4. HHHector Hughes
  ... I, I guess to, to some of your points there, like view count, et cetera, the question is like, what's your narrative if you're not doing so well on that, right?
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
6. HHHector Hughes
  So if you're feeling bad because, you know, the views didn't go up so much this month, or, or for me it might be, you know, our revenue numbers or whatever it is, um, or growth cabins, then like what is that narrative? There is this, this like, you know, I, I don't know, this kind of frustration that we're not, like, showing everyone how, like, amazing we are or, or whatever it is.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
8. HHHector Hughes
  How special we are. And there is something about being human where we just really wanna feel, um, feel special. So I think that, you know, that, that, that question is fantastic, and it does get to the point of, you know, perhaps these behaviors that we are normalizing aren't as, aren't as healthy as we think. And it's super interesting that you say that everyone around you would tell you that you need a holiday, but it's not something that you feel.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
10. HHHector Hughes
  Uh, and c- 'cause I think, what does it really come back to? Kinda like burnout. I think another loaded word that is, um, also at the root of pretty much everything is, is trauma, right? Trauma's a big one. And, uh, I think again, it's like where are our traumas and like how do they show up? Again, trauma, kinda like burnout, you, you picture this, like, car burning out and, like, very dramatic. And like-
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
12. HHHector Hughes
  ... trauma, you picture some terrible thing happening during your childhood. And I think trauma or, you know, where it's relevant here i- is broader than that, right? It's like anything that happened to us as a child.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
14. HHHector Hughes
  It might have just been just, like, one little offhand comment-
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep
16. HHHector Hughes
  ... that, you know, for some reason made a massive effect on us. Uh, and that shows up all through our life. And so I, I actually had, um, an experience about a year or two into running Unplugged k- kind of like this where I felt like I'd, I felt like I'd cracked life. Sounds stupid to say, but you know, I was, I was kind of, uh, had really built a strong meditation habit. I was reading a lot. I was, like, feeling super chilled. Unplugged was going well. And I was like, I, I, you know, I think I've figured out happiness. You know, I'm just, I'm just happy now. And, uh, and then, you know, life, life came and, and kind of got more complicated and got more difficult when we started growing and I got into a relationship still with, uh, with Kay now, who's wonderful and y- that's been... But, but that has been a challenge for me because, like, that's a particular area where I have trauma. So actually, uh, start of 2020, I think, I did four months of something called psychosexual therapy.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Ooh. Hello.
18. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. And that-
19. AAAli Abdaal
  What's that?
20. HHHector Hughes
  So it's basically sex and relationships therapy.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
22. HHHector Hughes
  And I had, up until that point, I'd never made it past two months in a relationship, so I'd always like... I, I'd feel this, like, deep sense of claustrophobia. Um, and like, you know, literally within a couple of weeks into a relationship and then I, I just like felt it building and building and building, and then I'd have to like cut and run. And so then around the time of starting Unplugged, I quit drinking around that time. It was the pandemic, so I was like, "I'm just not gonna worry about relationships for a year or something." So it must've been start of 2021. And, uh, and then I saw, listened to a podcast with a psychosexual therapist, which I'd never heard of before, and I was like, "That's probably something I could do with." So I did four months of psychosexual therapy and basically got to the bottom that it was all kinda stems from, like, teenage anxieties
36:06 – 46:06
What if you just turned down your fear
1. HHHector Hughes
  around sex and just, like, I think not having confidence of like how to fucking do any of it at, at the age of like 14, 15.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
3. HHHector Hughes
  Feeling like I was behind perhaps.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
5. HHHector Hughes
  Um, and, and that then in hindsight fueled the drinking, so I started drinking about the age of 15 and, like, that was almost a party trick for a decade. It was like, "Well, let's just see how drunk I can get," and it's funny and, you know, people seem to like me if I do that and that kind of thing. And so I think that, um, I really built a life on that kind of pretty shaky, insecure ground. So on the surface, uh, and if you'd asked me if I was happy then, I would've told you I was happy, yeah. And but it was built on this, like, escaping from my trauma, and it was only kind of really sitting down and, and it was, actually it was only going through a couple of relationships and realizing just how, and not in relationships, but two months of dating, realizing just how big an issue it was for me, um, did I kinda reflect there's an issue here. So I did the psychosexual therapy. A month later, I met, uh, Kay, my girlfriend, and, you know, straight off the bat that was fantastic, completely different, I think because I had that awareness and, like, awareness of myself and, and, like, the issues in myself. But then, you know, we, we have also been through difficult periods, so- Started living together pretty quickly. She runs a startup as well, so like there's that kind of tension at times. And, uh, and it is difficult, you know? It's... A- and so it was a very humbling experience for me 'cause I'd come from this place of like, "Life's so easy" to like, "Oh my gosh, yeah, life throws curve balls," and you know, we're not even talking about kids, all that kind of stuff. I could only imagine, uh, how complicated life gets once you go down that route. So I think the more, the more kind of, um, I guess strain or, or even stimulus or, you know, things going on in your life, th- the more likely you are to kind of trigger one of those traumas. So it's still something I'm working on. You know, she's... Kay's great and super open about it, so we, we chat about it a lot and, you know, both doing therapy. Um, so... And, and that has been, that has been really helpful. Like I was chatting to my therapist a couple of weeks ago and just v- voicing like, "Ah, gosh, you know, we, we'd kind of went through a tougher patch." And I said, "Yeah, it was just this like fear about am I making a mistake?" or this kind of thing, and she was like... A- and I was like looking for her to be like, "Well, you know, is this the right thing for you? Blah, blah, blah." But she was actually like, "It sounds like, you know, it's just your fear. Like what if you just turned down your fear and just stopped questioning everything?" And that was super empowering, and I stepped away from that and was like, "Ah." It just felt like 10 times lighter, you know? So it's interesting where we can go through these periods, to, to get back to the original point, of feeling like we're fine and we don't have any issues, but actually deep within us, there are these traumas that are just waiting to come out at some other point in life. So yeah, that's, that's been my own journey, I guess, with the trauma.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Thank you for being so open about this.
7. HHHector Hughes
  No problem.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  That's a powerful question. What if you just turned down your fear?
9. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah.
10. AAAli Abdaal
  What other insights did you have from the, from the therapist, psychosexual therapist?
11. HHHector Hughes
  Psychosexual therapist. Um, I mean, same thing. Like it's the same thing as, as the, the therapist I'm seeing now. He's a-
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
13. HHHector Hughes
  ... different therapist, and uh, it's the same thing, which is like maybe it's not the outside world, you know? Maybe it's you're worrying about the situation that is causing the issues, you know? So maybe if you just stop worrying, then there's no more issues. It's like overthinking, you know, kind of... It's all this questioning that then becomes like a self-fulfilling prophecy. So... A- and it's actually the same to the, the silent retreat I did post, post-burnout, starting Unplugged. Uh, it was a... It was called Intro to Buddhism, so it was half meditation, half Buddhist philosophy. And uh, it was the same thing, which is like, you know, the, the kind of core idea of Buddhism is that like all of the suffering, all of our suffering comes from ourself, right? But not the outside world. Like we think, you know, most people, most of us most of the time think that the issue is our boss or, you know, this person or this thing, and actually that is not the issue. The issue is how you react to it. And so, like again, that's a very empowering idea because if it's like, "Hey, maybe I'm the problem here," and you do that in a kind way, right? You're not like, "Damn you, Ali" you know? [laughs] "You're the problem here." It's like, uh, or Hector. Um, it's like, "The problem is me, but that's good. It means I, I can work on it, you know? I can sort it." But yeah, it's super helpful like, I think, having someone point that out to you because I think we are just... You know, we all have blind spots all of the time and, you know, you look back. I think it's so interesting to look back at yourself a few years ago and you're like, "Wow, I've learned so much." But then if we look forward a few years we're like, "Oh, no, but I'm probably not gonna learn. Like I probably know most of it now."
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
15. HHHector Hughes
  You know? But it'll be the same again for sure.
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. The end of history illusion.
17. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs]
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Where we think, "Oh, I've changed a lot in the last five years"-
19. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
20. AAAli Abdaal
  ... but like, like surely, surely I'm at my final evolution. Like there's no way I'm gonna change that much in the next five years. Like I'm kind of, I'm kind of where I, I need, I need to be. So was there a specific moment where, when you were a teenager that you can, that you sort of trace back to where kind of these insecurities and the fears stemmed from?
21. HHHector Hughes
  It's a very deep question. Um-
22. AAAli Abdaal
  It's Deep Dive.
23. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs] I think if I'm honest, it was just like a, like a, a feeling like... I'm sure there were lots of like little occasions, but it was just a, a real like lacking of self-confidence there and just like not feeling like I knew... So you know, when people started dating, all of that kind of thing, just like not even know where to start with that, you know? So I wasn't like a flirty kid or teenager and like just didn't know how to, uh, do that, to be honest and I think was kind of maybe like later going through puberty, et cetera, so I was like tiny until the age of about 15. And so I, I just think it all compounded in... But you know, on, on one hand I had this real self-confidence in myself in some areas, but then on the other hand I just had this real, uh, uh, yeah, just, just like not being comfortable in my own skin and just like not really knowing, you know, how to engage with dating and relationships, et cetera.
24. AAAli Abdaal
  And you felt like the people around you knew how to do that stuff?
25. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I felt like everyone else had it figured out and I was clueless.
26. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. Do you think that that was true?
27. HHHector Hughes
  I don't think that was true, in hindsight.
28. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
29. HHHector Hughes
  The only, the only time I haven't thought that was true is when you just asked me that, okay. I, I've never reflected back and been like, "Hey, that probably wasn't true."
30. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
46:06 – 50:40
Daily challenges to self-worth
1. AAAli Abdaal
  self-worth to certain things.
2. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  And I think ... I mean, for me growing up, I fully pegged my self-worth to my grades and my ranking in the year group.
4. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs]
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Obviously, you know, I, I-
6. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
7. AAAli Abdaal
  ... you know, I couldn't compete on the, uh, lad front or a sports teams front, so it's like, great, you know, I am the guy who comes top of the year academically, and my entire self-worth was sort of pegged to that. And then at university, I realized, oh, shit, like [laughs] it, it would be a lot of work to continue to peg my self-worth, my self-worth to that, and, uh, it's not really working anymore. And so of that insecurity of feeling probably, probably feeling, in fact, I can just dr- drop the probably, that insecurity of feeling not good enough, not worthy enough to be accepted is what prompted me to start my first business at university. I mean, I started it because I got scammed out of 1,000 pound and I ne- and needed to make-
8. HHHector Hughes
  Oh
9. AAAli Abdaal
  ... 1,000 pounds back. But once I made the 1,000 pounds back-
10. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
11. AAAli Abdaal
  ... then the next 10 and the next 100 and the next whatever, that was a sense of like, oh, I might not be the smartest person in the year group or the, or, or the one with the best grades, but I'm doing business on the side. Check me out.
12. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. [laughs]
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Then five years later, that morphs into the YouTube channel, where all of a sudden this is, like, a whole other game to play-
14. HHHector Hughes
  This is huge
15. AAAli Abdaal
  ... where it's sort of chasing, like-
16. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
17. AAAli Abdaal
  ... daily dopamine hits of self-worth and self-validation and self, like, affirmation almost, where it's like every new subscriber is a new boost to the ego. Every new view is a boost to the ego. Every comment being like, "Oh, my God, I love you, you've changed my life," is a boost to the ego. Every comment that's, "This is terrible. What, what are you talking about?" is, like, a massive, like ... So, and it's like there's a lot of ... You know, when thing- when things are going well and the numbers are going up and the line is going up, then it's very easy to think that, like, I'm a ch- I'm a chill guy. I've read all the Stoicism books. Life is good. [laughs]
18. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  But it's when the numbers start to go down that truly tests ... That, that, that thing that Peter, that Peter Crone would say, it reveals where you're not free.
20. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  And I found all my first business where, you know, I d- I used to run m- uh, courses for medical admissions. For the first three years, the numbers kept going up, and I felt like on top of the world. And then year four, the numbers plateaued, and then year five they went down a bit, and I was like, "Oh, my God."
22. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs]
23. AAAli Abdaal
  And that was, you know, led to a lot of journaling and reflection, and that's why I started my blog. And I think my very first po- post on that blog is, like, trying to come to terms with the fact that the numbers are going down and deciding what I wanna do about it, which was ultimately what prompted the YouTube channel to start. But I think, yeah, I think we all peg our ... I, I, I certainly do, and I, I wonder if people listening to this can relate. But pegging our self-worth to certain numbers and certain things.
24. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. And I think to bring it right back, that's probably one of the many, uh, issues, I would say, that, that phones cause, right? Is like it's that on steroids.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Ooh, yeah.
26. HHHector Hughes
  Because it is challenging your self-worth all day, every day, you know? Like, even the people-pleasing thing we mentioned earlier, like, I think you and I are probably quite similar where we have this narrative in our mind that, like, we're a nice guy.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
28. HHHector Hughes
  And so you feel like if you're not-
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Right
30. HHHector Hughes
  ... replying to this person, it's challenged your self-worth, you know?
50:40 – 53:54
Experiencing a silent retreat
1. AAAli Abdaal
  What... So you, so you said it was partly introduction to Buddhism, partly meditation. What was the... So like, uh, did you have any experience of this sort of stuff before or was that your first experience, and what was, what was, what was that experience like?
2. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah, for sure. So I guess to take it back further, uh, during my time... So again, used to kind of drink a lot, not take life too seriously. Got a job at this startup, and that was actually a very transformational experience, 'cause for the first time started to, like, engage with something. I was pretty rubbish at all the jobs I was doing. It was like did sales for a year, ran product for a year, ran growth for a year. And I was like, I was pretty bad at each job, but I think I was quite good in the startup environment. You know, I was, like, quite good at navigating the people, said something bright occasionally. So I think that was very engaging. And then it just started to become this, like, bigger and bigger conflict, this kind of on one, on one side living this, like, you know, kind of boozy lifestyle. Uh, and on the other side I was, like, actually starting to, like, enjoy something and engage with something.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
4. HHHector Hughes
  And just started to, you know, read a lot more, uh, started to listen to podcasts, all that kind of thing. And, and that introduced me to meditation, and it was like, well, it j- I just had it come up again and again and again. My, everyone's like... You know, all these people who seem to have it figured out, it was like, oh, they also meditate. So I was like, "Okay, this is probably something worth trying." Did Headspace for a while, um, which I think is a great intro to meditation, but I found it's quite hard work. Like, it's, uh, you know, the focus on the breath, I found, you know, for one month it would go well, and then I'd kind of be a bit lazier with the month. And for all of the people who talk about meditation, it's, it's actually quite rare to have as a daily practice, um, people that actually do it every day. And then then I came across something called transcendental meditation in summer 2019, and that was... It, it's, it's very big in, like, Hollywood, you know. So people like Hugh Jackman and Ellen and all these kind of people. And I was like, if the busiest people, if it works for them, then maybe it's worth trying. So I learned that. There's a four-day induction. Went to an unmarked house in Shepherd's Bush. You have to bring a flower, a white handkerchief, and a piece of fruit. So it's a lit- feels a little bit culty. But then you get given a, a mantra, basically, a meaningless mantra, and, uh, and that's it, and you just sit there for 20 minutes twice a day just repeating this mantra to yourself. And that was completely transformative. So-
5. AAAli Abdaal
  That's why.
6. HHHector Hughes
  Uh, I don't-
7. AAAli Abdaal
  That sounds-
8. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. Well, I mean-
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. And...
10. HHHector Hughes
  The, the main reason is because it was really easy to make it stick, and the reason behind that is just... So all of this Buddhist mindfulness meditation is designed for monastic living, so life in a monastery, right?
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Sure.
12. HHHector Hughes
  So it's quite hard work by, by its nature, whereas this is designed for, for laypeople.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
14. HHHector Hughes
  And so it's just much easier to, to make a habit of it. And if you do any kind of meditation 20 minutes twice a day. But then what this does is it, like, lulls you into this state of relaxation. So I don't know. It was just, like, really, I really vividly remember that first week just being like, "Oh my God, you know, 90% of the work I'm doing is absolutely nonsense basically." Like, so, so it just really gave me a lot of clarity on life and j-
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Wait, just by repeating this mantra to yourself for 20 minutes twice a day?
16. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah, by meditating tw- doing this mantra 20 minutes twice a day.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  So what does that look like? Like, if you were to sort of pseudo coach me, like, I've never done this before. Like, what-
18. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
19. AAAli Abdaal
  ... what would it look like if you were to talk me or whoever's listening through-
20. HHHector Hughes
  Through actually doing the meditation?
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, for, like, I don't know, two minutes or something like that.
22. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah, for
53:54 – 58:49
Meditation practice
1. HHHector Hughes
  sure. For sure. So the... Well, I, I can't give you my mantra because it's a secret.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, apparently you're not allowed to tell.
3. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. C- and the reason behind that is if I'm then meditating later, I'll remember this conversation-
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Sure
5. HHHector Hughes
  ... you know, when I'm saying the mantra.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
7. HHHector Hughes
  So, uh-
8. AAAli Abdaal
  So should we make one up?
9. HHHector Hughes
  Let's say om.
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Like, om.
11. HHHector Hughes
  Om.
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Om. Okay.
13. HHHector Hughes
  Om is my s-
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Om is, like, a stan- a classical one, isn't it?
15. HHHector Hughes
  It's a classic one. It's a classic one.
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
17. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah, yeah.
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
19. HHHector Hughes
  But it's something to do... The words they choose is something to do with, like, the vibrations, that you can feel the resonance, if that's the right word-
20. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
21. HHHector Hughes
  ... in your body.
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
23. HHHector Hughes
  So it's something about that.
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
25. HHHector Hughes
  And, uh, so yeah, what you're literally just doing is you're literally just sitting there-
26. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay
27. HHHector Hughes
  ... and literally just-
28. AAAli Abdaal
  And my close my eyes?
29. HHHector Hughes
  ... repeating. Yeah, close your eyes.
30. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay, I'm gonna close my eyes.
58:49 – 1:05:21
Overstimulation and developing self-awareness
1. AAAli Abdaal
  While I was saying the oms, there were some just thoughts coming up and some other instances where, you know, that conversation we were having about people pleasing where I realized, like, two very specific instances where in the last... Well, one, one of them was, like, yesterday, and the other one was, like, a year ago, that I just hadn't really thought about. This came to mind where I was like, "Yeah, in, in that situation, I was people pleasing and didn't operate doing what I authentically wanted to do," and instead what I thought a, quote, nice guy or a, quote, good man would do in that context, which is sacrifice my own preferences for the perceived preferences of someone else.
2. HHHector Hughes
  For sure. Yeah.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
4. HHHector Hughes
  'Cause I think that's it. It's about, like, also just developing our self-awareness, right? I think we are so unself-aware by default, and, you know, especially when we have this overstimulated mind, we're really not present, right? Like, when you're on your phone, you're thinking... You're not thinking about yourself. You're thinking about that person whose social media post you've just seen-
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
6. HHHector Hughes
  ... or that person who's messaged you. Um, so you're, you're very not tuned into yourself.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
8. HHHector Hughes
  And I think it's by tuning into yourself, which obviously meditation is a great way of doing, but really any time offline, that you can start to come up with these things, and you can start to better answer, you know, that question around, like, how are you really, how are you really doing?
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
10. HHHector Hughes
  You know? Like, things start to come up.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I guess th- this morning as well, like, I gener- I generally make it a point not to check my phone first thing in the morning 'cause it's just such, such good and standard advice. But this morning I was like... You know, last night I was listening to an Alex Hormozi talk-
12. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs]
13. AAAli Abdaal
  ... which is like an hour and a half long, and I was like, "You know what? That was really good. I'm gonna continue listening to it." And then a friend messaged me that link to that same talk saying, "Skip to timestamp 32 minutes 'cause this is so you." And I was like, "Cool. Let's go."
14. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs]
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Skipped to 32 minutes, listened to it double speed, realized, "Oh yeah, this is me in the business," and it's like-
16. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
17. AAAli Abdaal
  ... suddenly I'm like, "All right," you know, got the AirPods in, going to the toilet, brushing my teeth, and I'm like, yeah, l- listening at double speed and have all these thoughts coming to my mind around like, "All right, cool. Interesting things we can do in the business." And then I think, "You know what? I'm gonna go for a walk to g- you know, get the morning sunlight and to, you know, as Andrew Huberman would, would recommend."
18. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  You know, walk down to the local Pret a Manger, get some, you know... I, I get a cheeky coffee. But on the walk, I'm listening to an online course that I'm taking at double speed 'cause I'm like, "Oh, more stuff-"
20. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs]
21. AAAli Abdaal
  "... more stuff in the business." Like, yes.
22. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  And just, like, actually taking the space to... It, it, it feels so... Okay, people are gonna... It just feels so unproductive-
24. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
25. AAAli Abdaal
  ... to not, to not be doing that.
26. HHHector Hughes
  100%.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  It feels so unproductive just sit there-
28. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
29. AAAli Abdaal
  ... for 20 minutes.
30. HHHector Hughes
  SOMA, right? It's like-
1:05:21 – 1:13:22
Eye opening moments from the retreat
1. HHHector Hughes
  it was, yeah, as I mentioned, this Buddhist temple on top of a mountain. It was actually just outside Dharamshala, which is where the Dalai Lama live. So went down to see him one of the days. Not, not one-on-one though. It was a big event. But, uh, the, the retreat itself again was half Buddhist philosophy, half meditation. So it was about... It was silence. It was about four hours a day meditating and about four hours a day Buddhist teaching. But I think I went into it, I would say, uh, just like very like naive and skeptical of religion, like very much like, you know, obviously it's "wrong," quote unquote, and, uh, I think that was a real eye-opener. I, I, I, I, I mean, I, I wouldn't particularly identify with the religion now, but I'd say I appreciate the role it plays in society much more. So the, the Buddhist philosophy the first four or five days was like, yeah, you know, interesting, but not life-changing. And then halfway through the retreat we got into the Buddhist idea of attachment, which is like, "I need this to be happy," and that was just like mind-blowing. It explained all of the, you know, things that had led me there and all the things going on in my life at the moment. Like one of the big questions I was grappling with was like, "Should I go and try and do an MBA somewhere?" Which is a silly question in hindsight. And it was just like... And I spent the first four or five days just like journaling on that, like, "Ah, should I do it?" You know, pros and cons. I mean, enjoying the current place, but like, yeah, that would help me like step up a gear. And then I heard that, and it was just like, "It doesn't matter," you know? [laughs] "I don't need it either way," you know? Um, and so, so that was really, that was really empowering. Like that was exactly what I needed to hear. And then towards the end of the, the retreat, the last two days are like intense meditation. So you're spending like six or seven hours a day meditating, and it's a lot of visualizations. So like one of them, for example, is you spend 20 minutes focusing on your breath, and then 20 minutes you have this guided meditation where they're telling you to imagine yourself in the ground. So you're imagining yourself in your grave, and you're rotting and, you know, worms are crawling in and out of you. And that, that... You, you come out of that just feeling like, "I don't think I've ever felt so alive," is when you come out of that and you've just spent 20 minutes like properly meditating on your, on your death. So, so that was very eye-opening. And then there was a lot of compassion stuff as well, which I think is super. I think compassion is underrated. Like if you can turn up with unconditional compassion each day at, at work, with your family, then that just kind of transcends everything else. You know, if you... Like any other crap, if you can actually just operate from a place of full compassion, which obviously is hard in practice, easy in theory, then, you know, everything else is really, you know, just a detail. So that was... I think that was the big thing from that retreat. I've actually done another one since which was different, something called Vipassana, which is like eight or nine hours, actually 10 hours a day of meditating. I did that earlier this year- And that was a very intense experience, more about just like really s- so that's where you're like focusing on the sensations within yourself, right? And like, that retreat really felt like work. But, but this one, this initial one, I came out of that just like buzzing, just like feeling so much joy and compassion. Um, and that, that glow lasted for months or even a year afterwards. I, I think, you know, definitely some permanent changes off the back of that. Like it really changed my perspective about a lot of things.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. Like what?
3. HHHector Hughes
  Well, the I need this or that to be happy was the big one.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
5. HHHector Hughes
  Um, yeah, I think it was just that kind of empowering. Like I said, up until that point in my life, I just had this like I just wasn't comfortable in my own skin, and it was just this feeling of, um, really caring what people think, and that just completely disappeared. And, you know, obviously it's come back to some extent, which is what we spoke about, the people-pleasing earlier. But I think it was just like, I can just go and, and do whatever. So I mean, like I got back from that retreat, um, no intention to quit my job, but then so we were trying to raise a £10 million funding rounds. I had to come back for a leadership meeting, and two days into that, the money fell through. We're losing 300,000 a month. And that night we fired half the company, closed the US office, closed the Australian office. I was running marketing at the time, running growth, and we paused all growth spend. So I just had a week twiddling my thumbs. Uh, and then had been thinking a lot about like digital detoxing and my own phone use, had heard about this like cabin movement, and just sat there on a Friday night and just thought, "What about that cabin idea?" Um, spent three hours Googling cabins and was like, "This will probably work," and then quit on Monday. And I think a lot of that was just really feeling empowered of like, you can just go and do anything, you know? I had no idea how we were gonna do it, but it was like, yeah, why not, you know? Why not go and give this a try?
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. Quick question before we go into the cabins thing. Um, you said that one of the big life-changing realizations was this whole attachment thing. And people hear that all the time, like, "Oh, just don't be attached to things," and like, you know, the idea of non-attachment and like, you know, letting things go. There are even Disney songs about that.
7. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. [laughs]
8. AAAli Abdaal
  So what, what was it about the experience of doing it on a silent meditation retreat in the Himalayas in a Buddhist temple that made you feel the truth of that idea in a way that just hearing it on a podcast might not have done?
9. HHHector Hughes
  It's a great question. I mean, I think, you know, you- you're putting in the work there, so you're going, you're meditating. You know, you have hours and hours and hours to reflect on these things, right? Like it's a silent retreat. You know, there's nothing else you can do apart from reflect on these things. And I think you need that. You need to like be present with yourself, and like it's building that self-awareness in yourself so you can recognize it, right? Because if you just hear that, you think, "Ah, yeah, smart idea," but whatever. But if you're like really tuned into yourself, then when you hear that, it's like y- y- you're then kind of coupling that up with how you're feeling and what's been driving you the last few days. And you're, "Oh my God, that's exactly what has been happening to me these last few days when I've been like thinking about this MBA," or whatever it is. And so it's that kind of experience of really seeing it in yourself, like vividly in that moment and, and, you know, that requires the being offline and not being, not thinking about all these people who WhatsApp you. It requires really tuning in with yourself and like actually figuring out what your own experience is. You know? So it's learning by experience, and you need the whole retreat and the meditation and all that kind of thing to intuitively know. I think where I was in my life, I think people could go to that retreat and not come away with that realization and maybe come away with some different ones that I didn't have. So I think a lot of it was like, that was where I was in my life when like that was causing me a lot of, you know, grief and suffering. Um, and so the... 'Cause interesting, I did this other retreat earlier this year, much more intense experience. And I think, I, I, I'll be honest, I came out of that a little disappointed-
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
11. HHHector Hughes
  ... a little shaken as well, 'cause a lot of meditating and it's physically tough as well. Um, but I came out of that like a bit disappointed because I had this sky-high expectation because the last retreat I did was so life-changing. Um, so I d- I do think where you are in life has a huge... It's, it's like anything. It's like what we read, you know, what we listen to. Like you as a person and where you are in your life, you know, you could read one book and not really do anything, but then you could read the same book in a year and it-
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
13. HHHector Hughes
  ... completely change your life. Or, or, you know, likewise. It's, it's why giving book recommendations is sometimes difficult because it's like, I've given that book and I'm sure you're gonna love this book, and then the person's like, "No, that didn't do anything for me." So it's, uh, you know, it's very, uh, dependent on the situation and where you are. Um, but I think the... What's interesting is just exposing yourself to the right kind of things, you know? So a Buddhist retreat is a place where you're quite likely to have these realizations, getting offline, out into nature, reading books. Like these are the kind of things where you're like increasing the chances of that serendipity occurring.
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
15. HHHector Hughes
  If you're spending 10 hours a day scrolling through TikTok, you're probably not gonna have those realizations.
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
17. HHHector Hughes
  So it's about doing the right things. Like y- you're not sure where the, um, what's gonna come out when, but it's kinda like what, the trauma we spoke about earlier.
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
19. HHHector Hughes
  But it's like if you can do the right kind of work, then, you know, things will come off. And just be patient, trust the process, and yeah, do the work, I guess.
20. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm. Yeah,
1:13:22 – 1:21:18
Taking the space and time matters
1. AAAli Abdaal
  as you were, as you were describing that, it s- it sort of got me thinking around how... You know, just to, to use like a just a business example, uh, you know, taking a step back from the day-to-day running of the business and going on an offsite with the team, with the leadership team, and sort of mapping out the strategy and listing down all the issues and drawing the org chart and like doing all the, all the stuff, figuring out what's our annual goal and things like that. And that's stuff that you just don't have time and space to do normally, and it requires an active concerted effort to get, quote, "off the grid," like unplug from the day-to-day running of the business, being in the business, to think about zooming out and working on the business. And then in those contexts, whenever we've done that, A, we've always just had like loads of realizations that, "Oh wow, this is the thing we should be doing." But when those days have been facilitated by a coach, they've been like some of the best days of my life, because it's just like so thrilling and exhilarating actually thinking about this stuff, really unpacking it. And then the coach just says one little thing.
2. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs]
3. AAAli Abdaal
  One little thing like, "What's the 20% of actions that are driving 80% of the results?" And suddenly it's like, "Oh my God-
4. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs]
5. AAAli Abdaal
  ... my fucking mind is blown." But like obviously I know the Pareto Principle, like obviously. Like-
6. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
7. AAAli Abdaal
  ... uh, you know, as I read it a zillion times over, it's like I ask it, "What are 20% of input?" It's like, what's the 80/20 here? It's like, blah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's kind of like meaningless. But in, in the context on an offsite with a flip chart and like loads of papers thrown around, we've spent the last like 12 hours and, or two days thinking about this thing and unpacking everything in the business. That question from an experienced person who has been through the process before, just asks you, "What are the 20% of things that are driving all the results?" You're like, "Okay, I get it now. I understand." And you feel it, and then you cut 80% of the things in the business and the business grows.
8. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. [laughs]
9. AAAli Abdaal
  And it's like, but you needed that time and space-
10. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah
11. AAAli Abdaal
  ... to unpack in order to, in order for that realization to make sense.
12. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  And that was the sort of image that came to mind as you were describing that, like you ne- like you might have heard, you know, just don't worry about things.
14. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs]
15. AAAli Abdaal
  And it's like, what's that gonna do? But if you spend five days reflecting and unpacking stuff, you've got all the pa- all the papers out, and now you're here. But if you just don't worry about it so much.
16. HHHector Hughes
  Oh.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, all of a sudden it's like, I get it.
18. HHHector Hughes
  100%. Yeah, I think that's it. It's like, you know, it's getting to the truth of the situation, you know? Like, the work is understanding what's really gonna... going on here. Like, once you get to that place, then what you should do is like straightforward, but that's the hard place to get to, you know? Like, to see the forest for the trees, right? We spend all of our days just like in the weeds, and it's taking the time zooming out both, both for a company and ourselves, right? I, I do think, yeah, obviously you compare the two and, and they are, they are comparable. You know, it's the same, it's the same stuff. Like we're all running our own little companies, uh, each day.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Exactly.
20. HHHector Hughes
  It's, uh, i- it's really understanding like what's actually going on, and that is much deeper than we think. Like we, we have no idea really what's happening in this most of the time. We, we know so little about the human body. We're learning about it. We know even less about the mind. Um, but you know, you can, you can kind of just tune into your experience and, and the more you understand what's actually going on... If, like, if you really knew... Let's, let's say someone has some, you know, very disturbing trauma and it shows up as just anger their whole life. It's until they know that this trauma caused that-
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
22. HHHector Hughes
  ... then, you know, it's not obvious what the path forward is, right? It's just like, I'm an angry person, you know? Shows up again, again, again, and again, and it, it's really not obvious. It's, it's like how would you know what to do? But then if suddenly one day they find out that actually it's linked to this one thing that happened to them when they're a teenager, then suddenly it's obvious. It's like, "All right, well, I need to cure that thing," and then the problem will go away. So it's really about spending the time, like, you know, ideas are cheap, wisdom is... Or yeah, there's a great phrase, "Beware of wisdom not earned." I think that's so applicable because like, you know, you, you can... All of the wisdom is, is there. All of the wisdom, other people's wisdom is there for us to, to do it. But what to implement and where to implement and how to implement, that requires us to, to really understand ourself or our company.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm. Beware of wisdom not earned. Yeah, that's really nice. That also reminds me of something I've been, been, been thinking about recently, which when it comes to just somewhat tangentially reading, some people will say like, "Oh, books are pointless because you can just read a summary or you can just watch a video," or, "Oh, this could have been a blog post." But a blog post that summarizes the top 10 insights from, I don't know, Atomic Habits or, you know, s- from Siddhartha or from the, well, like whatever spiritual text you want.
24. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  It's not, it's just not gonna do anything. That's unearned wisdom and you kind of need, even just in reading, you need the fluff, you need the stories, the stuff that doesn't actually seemingly add value to the main pithy, highlightable, tweetable takeaway.
26. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  You need it to understand the, the, the takeaway. And if you don't have that, you just get a list of, a list of pithy quotes that like sound nice on the surface. You're like, yeah, and you just don't take any action on that.
28. HHHector Hughes
  100%. I think, I think biographies are a great example of that-
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
30. HHHector Hughes
  ... 'cause you can learn so much by reading about, you know, people who have gone on to do impactful things or whatever. And you know, it, it's, if you read a long biography, it might take, I don't know, 15, 20 hours, and it's that time you're spending sitting with that person and really understanding them through every situation.
1:21:18 – 1:35:11
How Unplugged cabins work
1. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  You, you said you got back from the silent retreat, quit the job, and you were thinking about cabins. Like, what was the, what's the-
3. HHHector Hughes
  For sure
4. AAAli Abdaal
  ... story?
5. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah. So I, I'd, I'd been thinking a lot about, like, digital detoxing. Read a great book called, um, Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport earlier that year. Interestingly, I, uh, he talks a lot about unplugged and unplugging, and I was like, oh, unplugged would be a great name for a business. This is before I was thinking about cabins. So tried to buy unplugged.com just in case I ever set up a business. C- costs like 100 grand, so-
6. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
7. HHHector Hughes
  ... didn't buy it.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  One day.
9. HHHector Hughes
  One day, yeah. And, uh, s- so that had been on my mind, and then obviously went to the silent retreat, which, which further reinforced it. Um, and had heard about this, like, cabin movement, and I think-
10. AAAli Abdaal
  What's a cabin?
11. HHHector Hughes
  So there's, like, a kinda tiny house movement and, you know-
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, yeah
13. HHHector Hughes
  ... there's lots of, like, cabin concepts in other countries. And what's interesting about cabins is they have, let's call it sex appeal, you know? Especially in this, like, Instagram world we live in. You know, it's sexy, it's aspirational. And I think digital detoxing, even the phrase, it sounds a bit fad-y.
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
15. HHHector Hughes
  So when we were sitting down, we can talk a bit about the business in a second, but when we were sitting down, uh, to create Unplugged, we made a list of phrases we weren't gonna use, and one of them was digital detoxing 'cause it, like, sounds a bit fad-y, you know?
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
17. HHHector Hughes
  And then after a while we're like, well, actually, this kind of is the thing.
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, I was gonna say, the w- on the website [laughs]
19. HHHector Hughes
  It's everywhere
20. AAAli Abdaal
  ... see the phrase, we're like, yeah.
21. HHHector Hughes
  Yeah.
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
23. HHHector Hughes
  So it's like, rather than worrying too much about it, why don't we just try and make it cool, you know? And I think to affect change in this day and age, you kinda see it with Tesla and electric cars-
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
25. HHHector Hughes
  ... you have to make it sexy. And so I think that's what, that's what we thought cabins could bring to the space.
26. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
27. HHHector Hughes
  So the concept behind Unplugged, put cabins an hour or two from city life, people go for three days, literally lock their phone in a box. We give them a Mac or a Nokia and leave them to it. So it's really, what we are is effective an experience company, where we want people to experience three nights offline in a cabin in nature.
28. AAAli Abdaal
  What sort of effect does this have? So I did, I did, you know, for context, I did one of these last year, and didn't actually take it seriously because like... And, and, and this was one of the areas where I think my people p- pleasing tendencies came up because as, as I was doing the Om shit like a couple of months ago, I was thinking, "You know, it would be cool to do a, a proper unplugged kind of cabin in the woods retreat thing. Why didn't I do it last time? Oh, last time it's because, you know, my... There was something happening at home, and something happening with friends, and, like, something happening with my girlfriend where I was like, 'Uh, you know, uh, I don't really... I, I can always do the cabin another time. It's like, it doesn't need to be this weekend. It's like, my grandma's visiting this weekend."
29. HHHector Hughes
  [laughs]
30. AAAli Abdaal
  "And it's like, oh, I should just..." You know, and then my brother was like, "Mate, you can do the unplugged thing any time. Like, you know the guys. Like, come on."