Eric Siu: Building a $10m+ Marketing Agency

Ali Abdaal 0:00 Hello and welcome back to Deep Dive, the weekly-ish [laughs] podcast where it's my immense pleasure to sit down with entrepreneurs, creators, authors, academics, and other inspiring people, and we find out how they got to where they are and the strategies and tools we can learn from them to help build a life that we love. What you're about to hear is a conversation between me and my friend Eric Siu. Now, Eric is an investor, founder, and advisor to multiple companies. He's the chairman of digital marketing agency Single Grain, which has worked with absolutely enormous companies like Amazon, Uber, and Salesforce. He also hosts two podcasts. Firstly is the Marketing School podcast with Neil Patel, which is one of the biggest, if not the biggest podcast in the world of marketing, and secondly, the Leveling Up podcast, which I've actually been a guest on. In this conversation, we talk about Eric's entrepreneurial journey, how he got started with his business, and how he ultimately grew his marketing agency to multi-million dollars in revenue, and we touch on all of the other different businesses and ventures that Eric started all the way through to his various successes. So I hope you enjoy this conversation between me and Eric Siu. Eric, how's it going?

Eric Siu 0:56 It's going, man.

Ali Abdaal 0:57 [laughs]

Eric Siu 0:57 It's good to hang out with you.

Ali Abdaal 0:58 Likewise. Um, w- I would love to start by asking about your, your backstory. How did you get into being this guy who runs this, like, super successful marketing agency?

Eric Siu 1:09 Yeah. Uh, so I was first working a dead-end job doing data entry, and then my friend said, "Hey, you should check out this internet marketing thing." Picked up internship. Long story short, um, got a job and then, like, a year later I was leading marketing at an online education startup, right? Had no idea how to manage people. I had no idea how to run a marketing team. Basically eight months after that, um, we had some success with that. I bet the entire company on YouTube ads. Long story with that. And, um, we raised our Series B and that company, you know, started to take off. And then, um, Neil, who's now my podcast co-host, was an advisor to that company, and he's like, "Hey, you should come help, you know, save this failing company," which it was a failing SEO agency, right? And, um, I was like, "Why would I do that? I, I'm in tech. I'm... Like, that's not scalable. The valuation, the multiples aren't that good. Like, you know, um, why would I do that?" And then before I said no, I was like, "Wait a minute. I think if I can help this company turn it around, I think I can do a lot more, and this is like, this is a nice test. It's, it's a nice real MBA."

Ali Abdaal 2:17 So you turned the SEO company around, and then what happened next?

Eric Siu 2:21 Yeah. So I mean, you know, with that one actually when I took it over, I... So I took it over. Neil was actually one of the partners, so I bought out his shares and then his partner's shares, right? Um, and we were able to, um, we-- I actually, I made it go from bad to worse. So I was 27 years old, had no idea how to run a company, right? And, uh, it actually got so bad to the point where my outside accounting firm called and, um, they said, "Hey, it might be time to shut this thing down." And I actually accepted a job at another company. I was looking at, um, apartments in Dallas, Texas, right? Um, and it would have been, would have been a great paying job, and, um, it was at that moment I was like, "You know what? No. I'd rather make, like, nothing a year and, like, still be doing entrepreneurship," right?

Ali Abdaal 3:01 Mm.

Eric Siu 3:01 Like, this is the thing I'd be doing for free, um, because it's fun. And so then I, I pulled back on it. I was like, "Hey, I can't do it." And then, um, luckily, b- I, I don't think I've told this part before, but the reason we were really able to turn it around was 'cause our SEO started to kick in. So we ranked number one for the keyword digital marketing agency in the United States for like two or three years.

Ali Abdaal 3:23 Oh, wow.

Eric Siu 3:23 And we're getting all the leads for it, like, you know, Uber, Amazon, everything, right?

Ali Abdaal 3:27 Yeah.

Eric Siu 3:27 And, um, because we, we're down, all the way down to one employee because of my screw-ups, um, we were able to refer the leads out to other agencies and were collecting like 30% commissions, right? So at that point we were making, like, maybe six, seven, $800,000 a year in profit,

Eric Siu 3:40 and that was because of all the SEO work that we were doing. And, um, that kept us afloat and that allowed us to bridge the gap, um, or that was the nice bridge to allow us to hire the people that we needed to hire-

Ali Abdaal 3:51 Right

Eric Siu 3:51 ... to start to really turn the thing around.

Ali Abdaal 3:53 So starting a marketing agency is, feel, feels like one of the modern-day equivalents of, I don't know, doing paid sur- paid surveys or something.

Eric Siu 4:02 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 4:02 It's like when you, when you start researching how to make money on the internet-

Eric Siu 4:05 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 4:05 ... start a marketing agency is weirdly high on the list.

Eric Siu 4:08 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 4:08 Why is starting a marketing agency such a seemingly common thing that-

Eric Siu 4:12 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 4:12 ... people tell other people to do to make money?

Eric Siu 4:14 Yeah. Well, it's, it's a great business, right? So, like, one, your CapEx, your capital expenditures are really low. It's not gonna cost you much money to start it up. Two, you're getting paid... Y- it's a cash flow business out the gate, right? You're not raising money for anything and then expecting, you know, to, to, to go negative for quite a while. And in today's environment you, you can't do that anymore, right? Um, you gotta be profitable. That, that's cool again. You gotta be efficient. Um, what most people don't know as well is that down the road you can, pre-2022, you can actually sell the agency with a 15 to 20X multiple. So let's say you're doing, like, $10 million a year, you might be able to sell it for $150, $200 million.

Ali Abdaal 4:48 Really?

Eric Siu 4:49 Most people don't know that.

Ali Abdaal 4:49 Oh, wow.

Eric Siu 4:50 Most people are like, "Oh, you can't sell the agency for much." That's true, only if your agency's doing less than five million in profit, you can maybe sell it for 3 to 4X. You start to go beyond that, you actually are building scale, and the large holding companies will be looking at you. So most people don't know that.

Ali Abdaal 5:04 Oh, wow. Interesting.

Eric Siu 5:05 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 5:05 Yeah, I, I had another entrepreneur on the pod, um, a while ago called Tim Armoo who sold his social media marketing agency-

Eric Siu 5:10 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 5:10 ... for like tens of million.

Eric Siu 5:12 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 5:12 And I think they were doing about 10 million revenue, so-

Eric Siu 5:15 Yep

Ali Abdaal 5:15 ... yeah. So wait, is, is this like multiple of revenue or multiple of profit?

Eric Siu 5:17 It's multiple... M- it's a multiple of profit, yeah.

Ali Abdaal 5:20 Okay.

Eric Siu 5:20 And so I, I think the problem is it's, um, you know, maybe we can get to the, the whole, like, me getting punched in the face and learning to focus, but if you wanna build something generational, I'm not saying everyone has to do this, but if you wanna build to, like, 100 million or, like, you know, multiple, eight figures or whatever, it takes 10, 20, 30 years to do that. And what ends up happening is the agency people, 'cause it's, it seems tough in the moment, right? It's like there's so many fires you're putting out. It's a people business. There's, people are complex, blah, blah, blah. Um, but you know, if you end up hiring good people to r- to help you manage the business, you're not necessarily stressed all the time, and then you're able to continue to scale the thing. I think what happens is most pe- most people are just like, "Oh, uh, I, I just wanna- I just wanna sell the thing and move on, 'cause they get burnt out too quickly.

Ali Abdaal 6:05 Mm-hmm.

Eric Siu 6:05 But the, the move to not get burnt out is to be really good with your marketing on, on, on the agency side so you drive leads, and then after you do that, then you just make sure you innovate, and then you hire really good people. Easier said than done, right? But if you hire really good people, especially in the agency world, they usually come with a book of business, and they usually come with people that they know. You recruit those people, and you keep doing it. You j- We, we talk- You want a, like a real-life pyramid scheme or multilevel marketing? Like, here it is, right? That's

Eric Siu 6:32 what it is.

Ali Abdaal 6:32 Nice. Okay, so let's say you h- you have a 23-year-old cousin who has just graduated university, and they've done a job for two years, but they hate it, and they're like, "Cool. Eric, you've got a big marketing agency. I wanna build my own marketing agency."

Eric Siu 6:48 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 6:49 And this person's like, "You know what? If I could get to 10K a month profit, I'll be really happy, because that means I can quit my job."

Eric Siu 6:54 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 6:54 What are the sorts of things that, let's say me as this 23-year-old student or, like, recent grad-

Eric Siu 6:59 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 6:59 ... would have to do to set up a marketing agency? Like, what's-

Eric Siu 7:02 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 7:02 ... what's involved in the process?

Eric Siu 7:03 Yeah, so I think, one, you have to get really good at just one thing first. So let's say you're really good at make, at, at clipping videos, right, for, for shorts and TikTok. So-

Ali Abdaal 7:10 Okay, yeah

Eric Siu 7:11 ... let's say, uh, let's say I'm Ali, right, and I do these long-form, uh, podcast interviews.

Ali Abdaal 7:14 Sure.

Eric Siu 7:15 Two hours. So if you were to say, "Hey, like, I will..." We're, we're literally paying this, this person to do this right now. Um, this guy used, they used to work for Gary Vee. And so he will clip videos, and every single day we get one, and then he just, like, he does it, right? Like, "Here's the caption. Here's everything." Um, and s- he's like, "Oh, this one I think you should cut, you should collab with Ali." So it's just like, it's all done for you, right?

Ali Abdaal 7:37 Hmm.

Eric Siu 7:38 And so if you're s- if you're stacking, like, 10 of these clients, you're already making 20 grand a month, right?

Ali Abdaal 7:41 Okay. Wait, sorry. So, so I have to get really good at one speci- So w- what are my options of skills? One of them is clip picking. Like, what-

Eric Siu 7:47 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 7:47 ... other sorts of things-

Eric Siu 7:48 Yeah, so like-

Ali Abdaal 7:48 ... could I get really good at?

Eric Siu 7:49 So one is clip making, okay? One could be, like, web design.

Ali Abdaal 7:52 Okay.

Eric Siu 7:52 The other one could be copywriting, for example.

Ali Abdaal 7:54 Yep.

Eric Siu 7:54 And we can go into, like, a sub-niche of copywriting might be, like, writing for you on LinkedIn or writing for you on Twitter. So everyone needs help with marketing or design at the end of the day, right?

Ali Abdaal 8:03 Oh, okay.

Eric Siu 8:03 So-

Ali Abdaal 8:03 So that's interesting, because my initial conception of marketing agency would've been, I don't know, I'll help you run Facebook ads, or I'll help you get a billboard out.

Eric Siu 8:10 Yeah. It's just services-

Ali Abdaal 8:10 But it sounds like these examples are things that wouldn't have come to... Like, helping people with their LinkedIn, helping people with Twitter.

Eric Siu 8:16 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 8:16 I guess that's what marketing is in the modern world.

Eric Siu 8:18 Well, yeah. I mean, th- that's what works, right? That's where the, the gorg- good organic reach is. And even the stuff that you have with, um, with Hey Friends, I believe, like, that's kind of a, that's a service as well, right? So it's whatever people need. I think, uh, paid, to your point, SEO, CRO, all that stuff is great.

Ali Abdaal 8:32 What's CRO? What's CRO?

Eric Siu 8:33 S- CRO is conversion rate optimization.

Ali Abdaal 8:35 Okay.

Eric Siu 8:35 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 8:35 So you take, look at a landing page, and you tweak it so that the conversion rate improves?

Eric Siu 8:39 Correct.

Ali Abdaal 8:40 Okay, nice. So I'm-

Eric Siu 8:41 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 8:41 ... I'm a 23-year-old, and I'm thinking, "Okay"-

Eric Siu 8:43 That's the first thing, yeah.

Ali Abdaal 8:44 Wait. Okay, so l- let's pick one of these. So let's say I'm, let's say I'm really into, I don't know, I'm really into social media, and I love the idea of taking someone's podcast and turning it into bite-sized clips-

Eric Siu 8:56 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 8:57 ... and editing them in, like, CapCut or something-

Eric Siu 8:59 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 8:59 ... so that they can post them on TikTok.

Eric Siu 9:01 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 9:02 Is that a reasonable thing that I can make a business out of?

Eric Siu 9:04 Yeah. If you're 23 years old, I think this is a great solo business. You don't need much CapEx, right? You reach out to a couple of people, and people have done this with me. It's like, um, "Hey." They'll send me the edited video already, and it's like, "Hey, this is what our work looks like. And, uh, do you want more of this?" It's like, "Oh, you've already done the work, and you, and it's good work. And it's... Yeah, I would love more, 'cause you just made my life easier."

Ali Abdaal 9:25 Mm-hmm.

Eric Siu 9:25 In fact, Brad over here, he reached out to me on Instagram, right? Um, and so it's like he reached out with a very clear call to action. It was very simple to understand. There's a lot of these people reaching out to me. I'm sure they're reaching out to you also on YouTube, right? Or YouTube, on Instagram right now too.

Ali Abdaal 9:37 Hmm. Yeah, yeah. I, I feel like half my Instagram feed has become s- these sorts of cold pitches and stuff.

Eric Siu 9:42 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 9:42 And we're increasingly getting more and more emails, 'cause I do talk about this in, in podcasts.

Eric Siu 9:46 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 9:46 I say that, "Oh, man, I wish someone would email me, email me with hav- having done the work and saying, 'Hey, you know, take it or leave it, but, like, I can do more of this.'"

Eric Siu 9:53 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 9:53 And so loads of people are like, "Hey, you know, I saw that thing you said on the podcast with Nicholas Cohen. Here is a PDF that you requested and stuff."

Eric Siu 9:58 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 9:58 But now there's too many of them to keep on top of. [laughs]

Eric Siu 10:00 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 10:00 So I guess-

Eric Siu 10:01 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 10:01 ... people have to-

Eric Siu 10:01 Then you have to stand out even more.

Ali Abdaal 10:02 Yeah.

Eric Siu 10:03 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 10:03 Or I guess people go to, go to people who are maybe, I don't know, a scale below where our ch- or where our YouTube channel is.

Eric Siu 10:10 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 10:10 And therefore, those are the people probably not getting pitched a good time today.

Eric Siu 10:12 That's a good call out. They should aim lower. They shouldn't aim for the best of the best when you're reaching out to people. They sh- they should aim for someone that's maybe, like, you know, maybe a level or two below. And also, maybe they can send it to the CEO, but also send it to people that are working on the team too.

Ali Abdaal 10:26 Yeah, that's right.

Eric Siu 10:26 The people that are maybe less busy.

Ali Abdaal 10:28 Yeah. I think this is a place where people get it wrong when they email me-

Eric Siu 10:32 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 10:32 ... in that they email me directly.

Eric Siu 10:33 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 10:33 And, like, there's very little chance I'm gonna see the email and be able to take, take action on it.

Eric Siu 10:37 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 10:37 But the ones who have done well have, have, have also said, "BTW, I've also sent this email to Amber, your podcast producer," 'cause they-

Eric Siu 10:43 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 10:43 ... figured out that her email address is fairly easy to guess.

Eric Siu 10:45 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 10:46 And- [laughs]

Eric Siu 10:46 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 10:46 ... those are the conversations that get taken forward because-

Eric Siu 10:48 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 10:48 ... Amber gets way fewer emails than I do.

Eric Siu 10:50 They're being proactive.

Ali Abdaal 10:51 Yeah.

Eric Siu 10:51 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 10:51 So let's say I'm 23-year-old Johnny, and I've decided, "Cool, I'm gonna reach out to, I'm gonna turn podcast clips into TikTok and Instagram content." Now do I just have to send cold emails? Like, what, how, how do I get my-

Eric Siu 11:05 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 11:05 ... how do I get my clients?

Eric Siu 11:06 In the beginning, you're the janitor. You're doing everything. So you are, you're coming up with the creative, like the, the creative and the, the outbound sales email, right? Or sales DM, whatever you wanna call it. Um, you're coming up with, you're doing the work as well, and you're also, you, you're doing a little bit of marketing as well. Like, maybe you're going to events and things like that.

Ali Abdaal 11:24 Hmm.

Eric Siu 11:24 But eventually it starts to pick up, 'cause your work is so good that peop- other people are referring you. Like, that, like, most people think the marketing agency is all about, oh, you know, you getting more leads, but what's the best way for you to get more leads? It's to do good work. And then when you sign a client, for example, don't just do the kickoff call, say, "Hey, Ali, um, is there anybody else you can introduce to me?"

Ali Abdaal 11:45 Hmm.

Eric Siu 11:46 And not, not, "Give me a referral." It's like, "Is there anybody I can intr- introduce?" And that will usually give you a good chunk of additional revenue.

Ali Abdaal 11:53 Oh, yeah, because I guess if you're a podcaster, you know other podcasters-

Eric Siu 11:56 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 11:56 ... and you'll be like, "Oh, actually, yeah, like, my mate Sam Parr needs clips created from his podcast."

Eric Siu 12:00 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 12:00 "Or my mate Sahil needs clips from his podcast."

Eric Siu 12:02 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 12:03 All that kind of thing.

Eric Siu 12:04 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 12:04 Nice. And how, how much can I be charging for my clip-picking service?

Eric Siu 12:09 You can be ch- so let's go with the $2,000 a month, right? So you only, what, you $2,000 a month times 10 clients, you're already making 20 grand a month.

Ali Abdaal 12:16 Hmm.

Eric Siu 12:17 That 240 grand, that's, you're already in the top, you're close to the top 1% in the United States.

Ali Abdaal 12:23 And you can charge 2K a month for podcast clip picking?

Eric Siu 12:25 Yeah. I mean, let, let's say you even come down a little bit, right?

Ali Abdaal 12:28 Yeah.

Eric Siu 12:28 1,500 a month or whatever.

Ali Abdaal 12:29 Yeah.

Eric Siu 12:30 Go get 20 clients, right? You're at 30K, so.

Ali Abdaal 12:34 Yeah, I think what's interesting about the agency stuff is that you're starting off with such a high ticket number, whereas I think initially when I was thinking about making money, I was thinking-

Eric Siu 12:43 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 12:43 ... okay, what can I sell for $3?

Eric Siu 12:45 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 12:45 And now can I sell 200,000 copies of those things every year? [laughs]

Eric Siu 12:47 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 12:48 And it's pretty hard to do that. But if you think, what can I sell for $2,000 or $3,000-

Eric Siu 12:52 Yep

Ali Abdaal 12:52 ... it, you need very, a, a very tiny number of clients to make decent amounts of money.

Eric Siu 12:55 Yeah. You could argue this, right? Like, I have a friend right now, he makes a million and a half a year. Um, and literally he just has a couple of 10, 15K clients, and all he does is consult for them. And it's because he did pretty good with leading marketing teams before at startups, and people know who he is.

Ali Abdaal 13:12 Hmm.

Eric Siu 13:13 So yeah. And his life is chill. Like, you wanna talk about feel good? Like-

Ali Abdaal 13:16 [laughs]

Eric Siu 13:17 ... maybe he spends like four hours, five hours a week working.

Ali Abdaal 13:19 Nice.

Eric Siu 13:19 So yeah.

Ali Abdaal 13:20 Okay, that's pretty solid. So okay, so I'm doing this clip picking. I've been sending cold emails and DMs, and I've got, and, and I've got a handful of clients. I'm probably gonna run into the, uh, the issue that I no longer have enough hours in the day. What do I do then?

Eric Siu 13:34 That's when you start to hire. And so I would say one of the first hires that is worthy of making with a services or agency model is actually your, your assistant. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 13:45 Hmm.

Eric Siu 13:45 'Cause that person can take a lot off your plate, right? So this person, like, 'cause look, you're gonna be, you're gonna be doing the work. That means you're going to be collecting all the assets. You need to be, um, coming up with the captions and all that type of stuff. There's a lot of logistical maneuvering to be done. There's a lot of calendars. Like, you're gonna have to get on client calls. Who, who's gonna manage all that? So I think the best move to do is come up with your bucket of $10 an hour tasks, $100 an hour tasks, $1,000 an hour tasks, and all the way up to like $100,000 an hour tasks, right? You should be thinking about every single quarter what are the 15% of things you could be eliminating and hiring out. 'Cause a, a job at the end of the day is just responsibility. So make that list of responsibilities and go hire out for that.

Ali Abdaal 14:23 Hmm. That makes it sound very simple. I think a lot of people feel like, you know, I certainly felt this with my first hire, like, oh my God, it's such a big deal.

Eric Siu 14:30 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 14:30 I need to get it right. I need to make sure I have everything. But you're just like, I mean, a job is just a list of, a list of responsibilities.

Eric Siu 14:35 Yeah. It's simple, not easy.

Ali Abdaal 14:36 Yeah.

Eric Siu 14:36 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 14:37 So how would I, let's say I'm Johnny, I'm 23. I've got, let's say, I don't know, 4K a month coming in from clients.

Eric Siu 14:42 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 14:43 How would I find my first person?

Eric Siu 14:45 Well, I mean-

Ali Abdaal 14:45 I'm just a nobody. Like, no one knows who I am

Eric Siu 14:46 ... if, if Johnny, 4K and he has, like, no burn, you know, 3K is great, right? But, uh, so he's gonna have to continue to grind. At 4K it's, it's not a lot of money, right? Um, you're asking how he gets the next clients, right?

Ali Abdaal 14:58 Mm-hmm.

Eric Siu 14:58 So there's the referral piece or asking for introductions. There is the potential-

Ali Abdaal 15:02 Oh, sorry, I mean, so is, uh, uh, at what point would Johnny be thinking about hiring?

Eric Siu 15:06 Got it. Yeah, so as soon as he can afford it. So if his burn's really low, let's say he's making, uh, you know, 10 grand a month, right? And his burn's like 2,000 a month.

Ali Abdaal 15:13 Okay.

Eric Siu 15:14 He's got 8,000 to, to play with. That's when you can s- you have some margin of safety there, right?

Ali Abdaal 15:18 Hmm.

Eric Siu 15:18 The thing you should be considering with, with most service businesses is you wanna have a gross profit margin of at least 50%, if not a little higher, maybe 60% or so.

Ali Abdaal 15:27 Okay.

Eric Siu 15:28 So-

Ali Abdaal 15:28 Meaning that I charge a client, let's say 2K, but it only costs me 1K to deliver the service.

Eric Siu 15:32 Right.

Ali Abdaal 15:33 Okay. So I'm making 1K gross profit, and then there's taxes and all that kind of crap.

Eric Siu 15:36 Mm-hmm. Yep.

Ali Abdaal 15:37 But that's a reasonable amount for an agency.

Eric Siu 15:39 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 15:39 Okay, nice. So Johnny's getting to 10K a month by cold emailing and doing referrals and stuff-

Eric Siu 15:45 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 15:45 ... and doing, doing good work-

Eric Siu 15:46 Yep

Ali Abdaal 15:46 ... for the people. Um, yeah, I see a lot of people who cold email me with work like, "Hey, you know, I, I saw in a video you mentioned that you're looking for a thumbnail designer. Here are some thumbnails." And they're just bad.

Eric Siu 15:57 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 15:57 Like, we look at all of them because we're always looking for thumbnail designers.

Eric Siu 15:59 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 15:59 And it's just so hard to find someone who's actually good.

Eric Siu 16:01 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 16:02 Um, so I guess a big part of the agency game is to actually be good at the thing.

Eric Siu 16:05 You have to go the extra mile. Like, it's like most people just aren't willing to go the extra mile, right? It's like, I'm trying to think. Okay, here, here's a good example. One guy that used to work for me, he now works for Gary Vee as his senior brand strategist, like he works side by side with him, right? And what he did when he first applied was he applied for an internship, but everyone else did just the normal stuff, right? The, they followed the job posting. He wrote a 4,000-word blog post, put it on Medium, and said all the things that he would do. And like, that is a way to stand out.

Ali Abdaal 16:37 Yeah.

Eric Siu 16:37 And then l- there's no, it's no wonder why he's working side by side with Gary Vee now.

Ali Abdaal 16:41 Yeah, I think there's a lot of, uh, when it comes to jobs, there's, there, there's a lot of entitlement that I sometimes get, get the impression of where people are like, "Well, I shouldn't have to go the extra mile."

Eric Siu 16:52 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 16:52 "I should be able to follow the instructions on the job"-

Eric Siu 16:55 Sounds like, sounds like America

Ali Abdaal 16:56 ... and tick the boxes and like, you know, do the requirements. It's like, oh, it's so unfair that like-

Eric Siu 17:00 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 17:00 ... they, they didn't even reply to my email-

Eric Siu 17:02 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 17:02 ... kind of thing.

Eric Siu 17:03 Yeah. Please give me a $1 million raise too.

Ali Abdaal 17:04 [laughs]

Eric Siu 17:05 Yeah. Yeah. It's, so okay, the entitlement thing, you know what's interesting, what I've observed is, um, entitlement is not really an issue in Latin America. It's not really an issue in Europe, not really an issue in Asian countries either. In fact, I talked to our lead developer, I was like, "Hey, what do you think about career pathing?" And then he just like scoffed at me and says, "Let's talk about something else," right? And it's just like, but, but in America it's like, oh no. It's like, you know, uh, we need like three days off a week. I would never like to come into the office. I would also like a raise every quarter or so. And it's like, the, I, I think we've just gotten very soft as a society.

Ali Abdaal 17:41 Hmm.

Eric Siu 17:41 And all, so this was, this isn't said usually. Like, I don't usually say this on a podcast, right? But it's like, um, when I'm at founder's retreats with my other friends, it's like it's becoming more and more difficult, and more and more of my founder friends, they don't wanna hire from America anymore because it's like the d- the work isn't getting done, and also America's a very litigious place, right? And so m- one of my friends has a rule. He will not hire people from California, Colorado, or New York. I'm like, "Why?" He's like, "Because all they know how to do is sue," right?

Ali Abdaal 18:09 [laughs]

Eric Siu 18:09 Um, it's like, I'd rather just not deal with that. It's like, that's the state's fault, right? And I'm like, "Oh, very interesting." He's like, "Yeah, I just hire more from Uruguay. I'm hiring more from like, you know, other countries, and it's working out perfectly 'cause people are grateful to have a job there."

Ali Abdaal 18:20 Hmm. Interesting.

Eric Siu 18:22 Yeah, that's, that was my little digression.

Ali Abdaal 18:23 Nice. I like it.

Eric Siu 18:24 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 18:24 Other, other than this Medium post, can you think of any other examples of people that you know/have known who have stood out? Through, like, something interesting

Eric Siu 18:31 You mean, like, uh, when they're applying for a job?

Ali Abdaal 18:33 Yeah, when they're applying for jobs or, or anything else.

Eric Siu 18:35 Yeah. So let's see. So there's, there's Raghav. That's, that's his name. Um, let's see who else. Who's-

Ali Abdaal 18:42 Like, wh- while you're thinking, we, we had a guy who applied for a videography position in our team.

Eric Siu 18:46 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 18:46 And we had, like, 400 applicants. This was the only guy who made a video.

Eric Siu 18:50 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 18:50 He just made a video and uploaded it as unlisted to YouTube being like, "Hey, Ali and team," and he just sort of did it in the style of an Ali Abdaal video.

Eric Siu 18:56 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 18:57 And, you know, in the end we didn't end up hiring him, but we gave him a trial task immediately because it's like, oh, he's gone the extra mile.

Eric Siu 19:01 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 19:02 Out of 400 people, he's the only one who's actually made a video. [laughs]

Eric Siu 19:03 Yeah. So we, we had a developer.

Ali Abdaal 19:05 Mm.

Eric Siu 19:05 He actually, um, made a video saying, "Hey," he, he was demonstrating his marketing prowess as well as his technical prowess, right? He's like, "Here are all the things I'd change on your website."

Ali Abdaal 19:14 Mm.

Eric Siu 19:14 "It's too slow over here. This is an issue over here," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's articulating himself. He even wrote something out afterwards. Um, so that's like, he not only made a video, he also had a write-up, and, um, he really demonstrated his, his level of sophistication.

Ali Abdaal 19:28 Mm. Nice. Is running a marketing agency fun for you?

Eric Siu 19:34 It feels good.

Ali Abdaal 19:35 Okay.

Eric Siu 19:35 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 19:35 How so?

Eric Siu 19:36 So right now, like I, I don't know, I can't speak for most people, but I enjoy how much there is to do, and I understand all the levers I need to pull. The game is very simple to me. It's, like I mentioned earlier, it, for marketing agencies, gotta have good marketing, which drives leads, right? And you gotta innovate. As long as you're innovating, innovating also means that you're pushing the limits, which means you're usually gonna get good results for your clients if you're constantly pushing the limits.

Ali Abdaal 20:03 Mm.

Eric Siu 20:04 Um, and so at a certain point it's just like, okay, if our marketing's really strong, we're getting, you know, hundreds of leads a month, then we just need to continue to hire really good people, and then we need to have a really good culture and then hold people accountable to that culture. And that's no different than building any great business.

Ali Abdaal 20:20 Mm.

Eric Siu 20:20 And so it's just, like, the reason why I like it now, I used to hate it, but I like it now 'cause it's like, it's what I understand most, and I spent the most amount of time in it, right? If I just continue to do that, it's gonna continue to compound, like anything else.

Ali Abdaal 20:32 Mm. Nice. So you spend a lot of time with the kind of, with other founders and stuff at all these, these events and, and the masterminds that you host. Have you seen, like, what are the patterns that you've seen amongst the people who are rich and happy compared to the people who are rich and unhappy?

Eric Siu 20:50 Yeah. Okay. So the rich and happy people, I was first gonna say kids, but no, that's not... The kids are certainly a big piece of it.

Ali Abdaal 20:56 Oh, okay. Interesting.

Eric Siu 20:56 Right? So, like, you know, it's-

Ali Abdaal 20:57 And the people with kids tend to be happier? Or-

Eric Siu 20:59 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 20:59 Yeah.

Eric Siu 20:59 I mean, some people I know that used to be all in, like, "Go, go, go, go, go," the kids have taken the edge off, and now they even bug me about having kids, right?

Ali Abdaal 21:07 Yeah.

Eric Siu 21:07 It's like, it's such a joy for them, right?

Ali Abdaal 21:09 Mm.

Eric Siu 21:09 Um, now that being said, I do have friends, and like, when I go on these founders retreats, some of them, some of them don't have kids yet, right? And, um, but the, everyone has like, you know, tens of millions or not- if not, like, hundreds of millions of dollars. And I think so, so why do you keep playing?

Ali Abdaal 21:27 Mm.

Eric Siu 21:27 It's like, well, because the game is fun. And it's no different than the answers that you usually get when you ask this. And so what's so, what's so fun about the game? It's like all the dynamic things. It's like the people problems, the, the, the sales challenge, the product challenges, the, you know, how the macroeconomic environment is changing, all the different creative financing options you can do, or different, like, tax things that you can do. There's, like, games within games you can play. This in itself is a game, right? Um, you know, there's the content game, right? Oh, wait, the channel's changing, the algorithm's changing. Okay, how do we adapt? And so I think it's, it gives you a chance to really flex your mind, and it keeps you sharp, and that's why it's fun.

Ali Abdaal 22:01 Mm. Okay. So it sounds like the people who are wealthy and also happy are the ones who continue to find the game of entrepreneurship actually genuinely feel good. [laughs]

Eric Siu 22:10 Yeah, I mean, look at Warren Buffett, right? He's 99 years old. Charlie Munger's 97 years old. I mean, is there any other incentive to play other than that it feels good?

Ali Abdaal 22:19 Mm. Interesting. Um, do you-- So is, is there any correlation that you've seen between people, sort of the enjoyment levels of people who have a more sort of lifestyle business compared to the enjoyment levels of people who are more full on with, with their work?

Eric Siu 22:34 So I used to think, like, all I would want was, like, a lifestyle business, right? Um, and then I would see people cap their businesses, say, "Hey, we're not grow beyond this." Um, and that, that's fine. It's, it's, that's what works for them. I think how, the way I'm wired is

Eric Siu 22:49 I just wanna see how far I can push this. And, um, you know, some people enjoy that. So I used to think like, "No, this is, this should be the way. Lifestyle is the way."

Ali Abdaal 22:57 Mm.

Eric Siu 22:57 Or, "No," like, you know, going all in and building a billion-dollar company is the way. It's like, no. It's like, whatever feels right to you, just go ahead and do that. And it's a boring answer, but it's like, it's true.

Ali Abdaal 23:06 Mm.

Eric Siu 23:06 Yeah. I'll give you another example. So when we did the founders retreat this year, one of the guys in the group, he was like, "You know, I, I don't know what to do now because, um, you know, we have over 1,000 employees, and,

Eric Siu 23:19 you know, there's this challenge with remote work." And, you know, another guy in the group was like, "Well, like, what have you always done with your businesses?" He's built some eight, nine-figure businesses, right? Um, he's like, "We've always worked in the office." And then the guy that was asking the question, he's always built his companies remotely. And then the conclusion we all came across was like, "Wait, then why don't you just continue doing that?" It's like, that's what you're used to doing. Like, that guy's used to doing, like, fully in the office. That guy's used to fully doing remote. I'm actually used to doing hybrid, 'cause I was already doing that three years before the pandemic. It's like, that is what feels right to you, so go ahead and do that. Who cares about what anybody else thinks? Like, there's no right or wrong. It's, like, what works for you.

Ali Abdaal 23:54 Mm. That's nice.

Eric Siu 23:56 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 23:56 Yeah. The, the thing that feels right to you. Um, oh, so what are your motivations at the moment for continuing to, I guess, grow the business? Is it that, that piece that is, is just fun?

Eric Siu 24:07 I love the aspect of learning and teaching. And so, like, if you were to ask me, it, it's kinda the same thing as you. Like, I've thought about this a lot before.

Ali Abdaal 24:16 Mm.

Eric Siu 24:16 It's like, what-- If you give me, you know, a billion dollars or whatever, like- Would I, what would I be doing? Like, I'd be learning and teaching still, 'cause I don't want my brain to rot.

Ali Abdaal 24:25 Mm.

Eric Siu 24:25 Um, and so what I really like about the business, and just doing business in general is, one, being able to go to USC sometimes and teach the kids, right? And some of the kids, by the way, in th- these classes are doing like $2 million a year, $1 million a year in business. They're like 19 years old, by the way. Um, I digress. But I like the coaching aspect of like when you hire amazing people and they're motivated, they, they share the same values as you, and they're down to listen, and I see the light bulb moments happen. Like we have a guy right now, he's, um, on the sales side. He's gonna go run his, um, parents, or parents, his family's airline company in like three, four months, and I'm just giving him everything right now on leadership. "Hey, you need to watch out for this. Hey, when you do this, the, the, people are, people are gonna react this way," right? So it feels good to mentor, and um, you know, I think that's why I really enjoy it. It's like a, it's a, it's a puzzle to continue to solve.

Ali Abdaal 25:14 Mm.

Eric Siu 25:14 As long as I want to continue to solve it.

Ali Abdaal 25:17 Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's the, uh, you know, when I was, when I was in medical school, I definitely... You know, a lot of our tutors were retired doctors, but they retired from medicine, but they continued-

Eric Siu 25:27 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 25:27 ... to teach. I think there's something about mentorship and teaching and giving back that-

Eric Siu 25:30 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 25:31 ... fills a lot of people's cup.

Eric Siu 25:32 Paying it forward.

Ali Abdaal 25:34 You, uh, mentioned earlier this thing around getting punched in the face and recognizing the value of focus.

Eric Siu 25:38 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 25:39 What's, what's the story there?

Eric Siu 25:40 Yeah, so you know, you read a lot of books. I've read a lot of books. Um, you know, a lot of entrepreneurship books, right? And um, you know, you hear stories like, you know, Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger. Sorry, Warren Buffett and Bill Gates, it's like, you know, they were asked what is the secret to their success, and they both wrote down one word on separate pieces of paper, and then when they revealed the word, the word was focus. It's like, okay, great. That sounds really good, right? Um, but when you're a younger entrepreneur, I'm speaking about myself, it's like, I think I can do everything. It's like, I think I can do this SaaS thing. I can do this entrepreneurship thing. Here, let's recap what

Eric Siu 26:13 I had. Let's see. I had a senior living business, okay? I had a quiz SaaS company. Um, what else? I was... Oh, wait. There was also a, there's education stuff going on, and like multiple courses as well in addition to the agency, right? There's just too... Oh, wait. My high school friends also wanted to do a vape flavor company as well. It's like thing after thing after thing, right? Shiny object after shiny object. And what I've learned is that you can do anything, just not everything. And I, I don't care how smart you are, right? Like there's just no way you can compete with someone that's all in on one thing.

Ali Abdaal 26:51 Hmm.

Eric Siu 26:51 And um, everyone's had to learn the hard way, like everyone's been punched in the face. And for me, the moment I, I really learned that was when we acquired these two agencies, right? That was the moment where it's like there's just too many things going on, and it's like, no, we really need to focus. We need to get back to basics, and we're just gonna do one thing. At the time, we're doing the agencies plus other things, right? And it's just like, no, like the agency, like there are agencies out there that do like $4 billion a year, right?

Ali Abdaal 27:17 4 billion?

Eric Siu 27:18 4 billion.

Ali Abdaal 27:18 Wow.

Eric Siu 27:18 Correct.

Ali Abdaal 27:19 Okay.

Eric Siu 27:19 In revenue, yeah. And um, any type of business can become really big if you want it to.

Ali Abdaal 27:24 Mm.

Eric Siu 27:25 And yeah, I think that's what I've learned. And it just feels right to be able to work on one thing. It, it feels very like when I had like five or six different projects going at once, it felt very frantic.

Ali Abdaal 27:40 Mm.

Eric Siu 27:40 And it felt like I was making pr- It's like I was starting from scratch on all of them.

Ali Abdaal 27:44 Mm-hmm.

Eric Siu 27:44 But when you just keep compounding on what you know already, it's gonna continue to snowball.

Ali Abdaal 27:50 I very much vibe with that. Um, what do you, what about the counterargument of diversification is good?

Eric Siu 27:56 So I, and I keep going back to Warren Buffett. So Uncle Warren Buffett said this. He's like, you know, divers- So Mark Cuban, the billionaire, has said, "Uh, diversification is for idiots."

Ali Abdaal 28:06 [laughs]

Eric Siu 28:06 And um, Warren Buffett has said, "Look, you know, instead of having, um, you know, multiple baskets," right? "You should diversify into different baskets." Like, no, no, no. You should have one basket and look at it, just watch it like a hawk, right? And when you think about Warren Buffett, like back in the day, most people don't know this, but um, they only focused on having like eight to 10 investments in, at any given time. Now Berkshire Hathaway's a lot bigger. They have to di- diversify even more, and you know, they have so much money to, to, to deploy, right? Um, but the, the, the lesson here is that there's only so much you can do at once.

Ali Abdaal 28:40 Yeah, so for me, focusing on the YouTube channel was like the main thing that I did for many years.

Eric Siu 28:44 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 28:44 And then I was like, "Oh, but we should probably... You know, what if the YouTube thing doesn't work? So we should probably get an email list. We should probably just start doing SEO on the website."

Eric Siu 28:52 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 28:52 "We should probably start a podcast because-"

Eric Siu 28:53 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 28:53 "... like Tim Ferriss diversified away from his personal brand and-"

Eric Siu 28:55 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 28:55 "... did a podcast," and it's like, okay, we should probably do this course. And I was, "Okay, cool. Now we've got this product. Let's diversify to do this other product."

Eric Siu 29:01 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 29:01 "And this other product, and this other product."

Eric Siu 29:02 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 29:02 And this seems to-

Eric Siu 29:03 And how did that feel?

Ali Abdaal 29:05 Uh, not, so not great when, when we had a lot. But I, I wonder in, in your view, uh, I'm, and I'm, I'm, I'm trying to figure, figure this out right now, like should I go back to just doing the YouTube channel?

Eric Siu 29:16 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 29:17 Or should I continue doing the podcast-

Eric Siu 29:18 Mm

Ali Abdaal 29:19 ... is like a question as well that's in my mind. Should I think about just writing more books and making videos, 'cause that's already two things.

Eric Siu 29:25 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 29:25 Or should I also write my weekly email newsletter, which seems sensible?

Eric Siu 29:27 Yeah. Got it.

Ali Abdaal 29:27 Should I also be active on Instagram, which seems sensible?

Eric Siu 29:29 Got it.

Ali Abdaal 29:29 Should I also blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?

Eric Siu 29:29 Okay.

Ali Abdaal 29:30 Yeah.

Eric Siu 29:30 So for you, when I'm looking at you, it's like you're still focused on one business, though. If you're doing your business right now, which is larger around the feel-good stuff, right? But then all of a sudden you're doing like a senior living business-

Ali Abdaal 29:42 That makes sense

Eric Siu 29:42 ... that wouldn't make sense.

Ali Abdaal 29:43 Yeah.

Eric Siu 29:43 Right? Like you're starting from scratch there.

Ali Abdaal 29:45 Sure.

Eric Siu 29:45 But you're still compounding within the current vehicle that you have.

Ali Abdaal 29:48 Right.

Eric Siu 29:48 And so that's okay, 'cause you're, you're experimenting inside of it, right?

Ali Abdaal 29:51 Mm-hmm.

Eric Siu 29:51 My, I think the challenge is when people are experimenting outside too much, that's when the, the resources start to all fall apart, 'cause your job as a leader is resource allocation. And then at a, at a certain point, as the company gets bigger, it's just capital allocation, right? And capital allocating in the wrong spots will lead you to go into very dark areas.

Ali Abdaal 30:10 Yeah.

Eric Siu 30:11 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 30:11 Ooh, okay. That's interesting.

Eric Siu 30:11 So like I think you're, you're doing, you're doing the right thing here. Like you're diversifying marketing channels.

Ali Abdaal 30:15 Yeah.

Eric Siu 30:16 Like that's fine. You're not diversifying businesses.

Ali Abdaal 30:18 Hmm. Yeah, 'cause fundamentally we're doing the same thing-

Eric Siu 30:20 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 30:20 ... which is content, sales, courses. [laughs]

Eric Siu 30:22 This, this is a channel. Like yeah-

Ali Abdaal 30:23 Yeah

Eric Siu 30:23 ... this is content, right?

Ali Abdaal 30:24 Yeah.

Eric Siu 30:24 And it's a channel.

Ali Abdaal 30:25 It's a product, and it's also a marketing channel.

Eric Siu 30:27 Okay, that's interesting

Ali Abdaal 30:28 Um, any other advice for what you know of our content business? [laughs]

Eric Siu 30:32 Yeah, I mean, I think you can definitely, you could... W- I, I think, I just think the best model is, and I think more c- more people are gonna copy it, it's just the Hormozi model where you take equity. Um, you know, maybe you have some up-and-comers in your YouTube Academy, um, I don't know, it's not YouTube Academy. What's it called again?

Ali Abdaal 30:47 Uh, Part-Time YouTuber Academy.

Eric Siu 30:48 Part-Time YouTuber Academy.

Ali Abdaal 30:49 Mm-hmm.

Eric Siu 30:49 Okay. So there's gonna be some people in there that become superstars, and maybe you're able to track these superstars.

Ali Abdaal 30:55 Mm.

Eric Siu 30:55 And maybe you can throw them, like, 50K here and then take, like, 10 or 20% equity in what they're doing, and you coach them up.

Ali Abdaal 31:01 Mm.

Eric Siu 31:01 And then y- maybe one of them becomes the next Bes- MrBeast.

Ali Abdaal 31:04 Mm.

Eric Siu 31:04 Like, who knows? Um, I just think, you know, e- everyone says, I, I tell, I tell, um, my, my chief of staff this. I'm like, "You ain't gonna get rich off a salary. Like, the best move for you is to own equity in something," right? And I don't mind telling her that, 'cause she's very smart, and she'll figure it out eventually. And so it's like, yeah, I think, um, courses are great. I think there's nothing wrong with courses. Courses are great to get the cash flow. But I think once you get to your size and you're starting to scale, maybe in a couple years, you're just taking equity mostly-

Ali Abdaal 31:30 Mm

Eric Siu 31:30 ... and you're investing in other people.

Ali Abdaal 31:32 Mm.

Eric Siu 31:32 And that's how, like, some of the, some of the richest people in the world are either investors or, like, they're just, like, straight business owners, right?

Ali Abdaal 31:40 Mm.

Eric Siu 31:41 Um, I don't know how big... And maybe your move is not to have, like, a really big course business. Um, but, like, courses can only, they'll cap out at a certain point-

Ali Abdaal 31:48 Yeah

Eric Siu 31:48 ... which is what Neil's point was, right? But there's nothing wrong with that.

Ali Abdaal 31:52 What's it like having an assistant/chief of staff/what's the difference between those two things?

Eric Siu 31:56 Yeah, well, I, I... So I have EA and chief of staff. So EA mostly focuses on the scheduling piece of things, like the logistics, um, if I need to book, like, travel or things like that. Um, like for example, when I arrive at a hotel, I'll have, like, an Instacart, um, you know, groceries arrive, right? Um, like, I really like liquid soap. Um-

Ali Abdaal 32:16 Yeah

Eric Siu 32:16 ... so, like, I don't like to, um, you know, use the hand soap, right? And so, like, there's fruit and all, like, healthy snacks. So it's, like, those logistics, right? And then, um, the chief of staff is, like, helping me with my day-to-day. So, like, "Hey, I need help with, like, um, pod- podcast sponsorships over here," or, "Hey, maybe I wanna look at this, um, maybe I wanna buy this website over here." I think the thinking is higher level, I would say. Um, and it's someone I know that can tr- I can trust with all my information.

Ali Abdaal 32:41 Hmm.

Eric Siu 32:42 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 32:42 It-

Eric Siu 32:42 They're a smoke jumper, so meaning they can jump into any situation.

Ali Abdaal 32:45 Yeah. So is your EA a full-time position, or is it part-time EA?

Eric Siu 32:49 Mm-hmm. Full-time.

Ali Abdaal 32:49 Well, other than... But, like, arranging In- Instacart, Instacart to a hotel doesn't feel like a full-time job. Like, what, what other stuff-

Eric Siu 32:54 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 32:54 ... does your EA do?

Eric Siu 32:55 Yeah. Well, there's a lot. I mean, it's-

Ali Abdaal 32:57 Yeah

Eric Siu 32:57 ... um, so... Okay, for example, we had a issue with a American Express fraud, right? Where s- someone was like, someone used up, like 700,000 points. Um, and I didn't catch that until, like, you know, um, a couple months ago, and so she had to deal with all that.

Ali Abdaal 33:12 Mm.

Eric Siu 33:12 And so that's, like, a lot of getting on the phone. Um, she handles, like, invoicing for podcasts or, like, booking guests and scheduling this stuff, um, like sending invites. Like, all the logistics around this-

Ali Abdaal 33:22 Mm

Eric Siu 33:22 ... she handled, so yeah.

Ali Abdaal 33:24 Okay. Nice. So it frees up head space for you to focus on the thing that grows your business.

Eric Siu 33:28 Correct. Yeah. And I don't like dealing with logistics or details. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 33:32 Nice.

Eric Siu 33:32 So yeah.

Ali Abdaal 33:32 You strike me as quite a sort of systems-y kind of guy.

Eric Siu 33:36 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 33:36 Have you found any useful systems for your personal health as well? 'Cause you seem also in pretty good shape.

Eric Siu 33:41 Oh, I'm in okay shape.

Ali Abdaal 33:42 [laughs]

Eric Siu 33:42 Uh, thank you. Um, yeah, I mean, I... Okay, one, I have a, I have a chef that delivers food, so it's... And delivers twice a week, and it's, like, 10 meals or so. So that's, that's a big piece of it. And it's like, it's very specific to what my nutritionist wanted before.

Ali Abdaal 34:00 Mm.

Eric Siu 34:00 It's, like, no gluten, no dairy, no soy, right? Uh, 'cause I have sensitivities to that, so I had run some blood tests, and so I can see all the stuff I'm sensitive to. Um, and then I go to, I lift, like four or five times a week.

Ali Abdaal 34:12 Hmm.

Eric Siu 34:12 And then right after that I'll do, like, zone two running for, like, you know, 20 minutes or so. And then I have my Peloton bike too, so I'll hop on that.

Ali Abdaal 34:18 Oh, wow.

Eric Siu 34:19 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 34:19 That's a lot of stuff that you're doing.

Eric Siu 34:20 Yeah. Oh, that, that's high level. And then, like, I'm a... I'll leave it off with this. I, I can keep going on, but the sleep stuff is what I obsess over.

Ali Abdaal 34:26 Hmm.

Eric Siu 34:26 So I have, like, this silk sleep mask. I buy it for $20 on Amazon. And then I wear the Oura.

Ali Abdaal 34:31 Mm.

Eric Siu 34:31 But I also, um, I invested in this company called Eight Sleep.

Ali Abdaal 34:34 Oh, yeah.

Eric Siu 34:34 And so I, I, I have that, and that's super helpful 'cause it cools my bed, right?

Ali Abdaal 34:38 Mm-hmm.

Eric Siu 34:38 And then I wear sleep tape on my mouth.

Ali Abdaal 34:40 Oh, nice. Yeah.

Eric Siu 34:40 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 34:41 Me too.

Eric Siu 34:41 I, I, I did, I started doing that, like seven years ago. Um, and then I used to have to, like, wake up to pee, like three times, four times a night, and now, like, I never get up at all.

Ali Abdaal 34:51 Hmm.

Eric Siu 34:51 So it's the best. Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 34:52 Okay. So it sounds like your health is pretty dialed in.

Eric Siu 34:54 It... Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 34:55 When you-

Eric Siu 34:55 It's good

Ali Abdaal 34:55 ... so what's, what's your system for lifting? Do you have a personal trainer, or do you follow a workout plan, and what, how does it work?

Eric Siu 35:00 No, I just, I just do it to, like, stay, stay in shape. So it's, like, squat... So it's, like, two squats. Um, two times per week I'll do s- like, leg exercises, right?

Ali Abdaal 35:10 Hmm.

Eric Siu 35:10 And then two times per week I'll do b- be, like, chest, upper body, and then one time will be, like, you know, um, back and, like, other stuff. So that's what I do.

Ali Abdaal 35:18 Hmm.

Eric Siu 35:18 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 35:18 Nice.

Eric Siu 35:19 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 35:19 Sick.

Eric Siu 35:20 Well-

Ali Abdaal 35:20 Um-

Eric Siu 35:21 What about you?

Ali Abdaal 35:22 I don't, I don't really have a system for health stuff. I'm, I'm trying to figure it out. Um, I'm trying to find a way to make going to the gym actually feel good-

Eric Siu 35:29 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 35:29 ... 'cause I've yet to find-

Eric Siu 35:30 Ah

Ali Abdaal 35:30 ... something around that that feels good.

Eric Siu 35:32 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 35:32 I really enjoy playing tennis, squash, uh, uh, uh, badminton, that sort of thing.

Eric Siu 35:36 Oh.

Ali Abdaal 35:37 But-

Eric Siu 35:38 We should play tennis tomorrow morning.

Ali Abdaal 35:39 Oh, nice.

Eric Siu 35:40 I, I have a court. Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 35:40 Nice. I'm down.

Eric Siu 35:41 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 35:41 Uh, but I'd, I'd, I'd love to find a way to, yeah, make, make muscle building feel good. Any, any tips?

Eric Siu 35:46 Yeah. Okay. Well, so what do you... Why doesn't it feel good right now?

Ali Abdaal 35:50 Ooh, okay. That's a really good question. It doesn't feel good right now because at the moment I'm traveling. I never know where the, where, where the local gym is. If I do know where the local gym is, there's some, like, logistical faff to get a day pass to get to the local gym.

Eric Siu 36:02 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 36:02 Making time for it in the calendar is al- it's always one of those things that I'm like, "Ugh, I don't feel like it right now. Maybe I'll go later." And then later-

Eric Siu 36:08 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 36:08 ... never comes.

Eric Siu 36:08 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 36:09 And then once I'm there, then, um, one, once I'm at the gym, I c- at that point it starts to feel good because I can just listen to an audiobook and-

Eric Siu 36:17 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 36:18 ... um, you know, I've got a, I've got a health coach, Dan, who programs my workouts.

Eric Siu 36:21 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 36:22 So from that point on it works, but it's just, I haven't really thought about this before, just the logistical piece of actually getting to the gym Feels like too much friction.

Eric Siu 36:30 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 36:30 But I also have an assistant, so I could just offload that.

Eric Siu 36:32 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 36:33 As I, as I'm saying this-

Eric Siu 36:33 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 36:33 ... I'm just like-

Eric Siu 36:34 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 36:34 ... "No, I should just..." Yeah. [laughs]

Eric Siu 36:35 It's, maybe you don't wanna solve it. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 36:36 [laughs]

Eric Siu 36:37 Yeah. I, I mean, look, I, when I, when I'm traveling, it's like I just, I just, I usually just work out at the, the gym at the hotel.

Ali Abdaal 36:44 Mm.

Eric Siu 36:45 And sometimes it sucks. Um, and then I'm just doing body workouts. It just depends on how long I'm traveling. If I'm traveling for, like, seven to 14 days, I'll definitely find, like, a local gym-

Ali Abdaal 36:52 Okay

Eric Siu 36:52 ... and then figure out, like, the, the whole, like, loc- the, the pass thing-

Ali Abdaal 36:55 Mm

Eric Siu 36:55 ... um, and just solve it because it's like I don't wanna... I just know that if I, if I'm feeling better, then, like, I'm gonna do a better job for people around me.

Ali Abdaal 37:03 Mm.

Eric Siu 37:04 So yeah.

Ali Abdaal 37:04 Nice. Um, do you have any hobbies outside of work and health? Or what are, like, what are the things that you like doing?

Eric Siu 37:12 Yeah. I mean, I like, I like doing Brazilian jujitsu.

Ali Abdaal 37:14 Oh, really?

Eric Siu 37:14 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 37:14 Nice.

Eric Siu 37:14 But I, I got, like... I thought I, like, you know, um, slipped a disc.

Ali Abdaal 37:18 Yeah.

Eric Siu 37:18 But then I didn't. But it's like, it's, it's, like, it's, it's a chess match, right? It's like you're constantly figuring it out.

Ali Abdaal 37:23 Mm.

Eric Siu 37:23 Um, I'm not saying I'm really pro or anything, but I'm like, "Oh, this is fun." And like, "Oh, I guess I'm learning how to defend myself."

Ali Abdaal 37:29 Mm.

Eric Siu 37:29 Um, the tennis I find enjoyable as well, and then, uh, I think other than that, man, I watch anime.

Ali Abdaal 37:36 Oh, nice. So yeah, solid. [laughs]

Eric Siu 37:38 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 37:38 Yeah, for me it's playing video games and reading fiction are my, my two things.

Eric Siu 37:42 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 37:42 Um, I, I attended a retreat last week where-

Eric Siu 37:45 Mm

Ali Abdaal 37:45 ... I saw, like, the most incredible guitarist I've ever seen in my life.

Eric Siu 37:47 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 37:47 And so that's inspired me to take up the guitar a bit more and try and get better at that.

Eric Siu 37:50 Interesting. Well, actually, that's another one. I really enjoy, like, going to, like, going to these founder retreats or, like, going to founder events.

Ali Abdaal 37:58 Mm.

Eric Siu 37:58 Um, or just anybody that, that's like-minded-

Ali Abdaal 38:00 Yeah

Eric Siu 38:00 ... because I get inspiration from it, and, um, I'm, I always get new ideas. And, like, I'm, I'm naturally introverted. People think I'm extroverted-

Ali Abdaal 38:07 Mm

Eric Siu 38:07 ... but it's like, no. Like, this is my hack-

Ali Abdaal 38:09 Mm

Eric Siu 38:09 ... of getting, being able to hang out with cool people.

Ali Abdaal 38:11 Yeah. [laughs]

Eric Siu 38:12 Right? This is one of the hacks.

Ali Abdaal 38:12 Having a chat on the podcast.

Eric Siu 38:13 Yeah, yeah.

Ali Abdaal 38:14 Yeah, same. [laughs] Um, you're one of the most well-connected people that I know in that it seems like you know everyone and everyone knows you. How did you do that?

Eric Siu 38:22 Yeah, that's a good question. So I'll tell you how I started if that's helpful at all.

Ali Abdaal 38:26 Mm.

Eric Siu 38:26 So, um, by the way, j- just for everyone's context here, it's, like, basically 12:00 AM Ali's time right now.

Ali Abdaal 38:32 [laughs]

Eric Siu 38:32 Right? Five. So I will, I, I'll try to, um... I'll try to be... I'll give a good answer here. So okay, so at, when I was 26 or 27 years old, I stumbled upon this PDF called Mastermind Talks, and it's this guy that throws these masterminds, Jason Gaignard. And you can find it. If you just type in, like, Mastermind Talks agenda or whatever, you can find a PDF of this. And I was like, "You know, I really wanna get people together, but I can't afford $25,000 to pay for a mastermind." And also, like, what idiot would pay $25,000 for a mastermind? Like-

Ali Abdaal 39:04 Yeah. [laughs]

Eric Siu 39:04 Like, and then, like, a year or two later, like, I did that. Um, but point is, I was like, "I wanna get people together. I don't know how to do it. I'm super nervous. Um, you know what? I'm gonna gather a group of marketers." So I gathered a group of marketing leaders, and they came over to my house when I was, like, 27, 28 years old. And I had a half-eaten bag of chips in the middle, and so that was the only food that we had, right? Um, but you know, it was good conversation. It's like, you know, people would go around the room. It's like, "Hey, tell us who you are, what you do, what's, what's one challenge you're facing right now? But also, what's really crushing it for you with marketing," right? And people would share these things, and we put someone on the hot seat too. It's like, "Oh, like, tell us one big issue you're facing right now. You're gonna get 20 minutes." And we all, like, you know, chime in with our experience. And I think after just getting over the first one, that gave me a lot of confidence to continue. And so I continued to do those, and I started speaking at smaller, smaller events, and that, that started to compound as well. And I started creating content too. That started to compound. Um, what I would say is with my, with my network... I, I think I've always just... Who, who'd I learn this from? I think it might've been from Brad Feld, who's an investor. Like, it's free to make introductions, and I'm always trying to make introductions, and I'm always trying to figure out how I can connect the dots. Like, if you were to ask me what my superpower is, it is connecting different people, concepts, and ideas. Like, that is what it is, full stop. And so for you it's like, oh, hey, maybe you're looking to, to market the book. It's like, in my mind right now it's like, okay, who else can help Ali with this podcast tour where it's not gonna be a drag for him?

Ali Abdaal 40:34 Mm.

Eric Siu 40:34 Right? Like, that's an immediate thing in my mind. It's like, okay,

Eric Siu 40:37 uh, Ali wants to do this, this, this, um, you know, where he wants to take equity in things. Like, okay, what's, like, a productivity software that might be helpful for him to take equity in where it's a win-win for both sides?

Ali Abdaal 40:45 Mm.

Eric Siu 40:45 So that's how I'm constantly thinking of it. And then because my default mode is that, it's just gonna compound.

Ali Abdaal 40:51 Mm.

Eric Siu 40:51 And that's how it's always been. And the other thing too is, like, people say I'm, like, really kind or nice or whatever.

Ali Abdaal 40:55 Mm.

Eric Siu 40:56 Um, I try to be, but, um, I think because my default mode is like, "How can I be helpful?" That is how it, it's, it's grown over the years, so.

Ali Abdaal 41:06 Nice.

Eric Siu 41:07 And the dinners too. So in the beginning, I used to host these dinners, and it was just a mess. Like, you know, everyone would have to, like, take out their credit card and pay for it. So, um, what I do now is when I host dinners, like, if you can afford to do this, even if you go to, like, f- Chipotle or something, right? Just pick up the tab. "Hey guys, I'm gonna get a group of great marketers together. Um, we're gonna have Chipotle. I'm gonna cover the bill. All you have to do is show up." You just made it easy for everyone-

Ali Abdaal 41:32 Mm

Eric Siu 41:32 ... 'cause they're gonna come, free meal, and they're gonna be able to connect with amazing people.

Ali Abdaal 41:36 Mm.

Eric Siu 41:36 And they're all gonna, like, love you more for it 'cause you're the connector.

Ali Abdaal 41:39 Yeah. I think that's one, one way in which anyone can add value by being, being the connector.

Eric Siu 41:45 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 41:46 Um, who was I... I was, was he... I, I heard this story about someone who he, he didn't really have any skills or anything. He just knew how to connect people, and he just got 10 different people to agree to hang out, and they were all paying, like, a million a year-

Eric Siu 41:58 Yep

Ali Abdaal 41:58 ... or 100K a year or something to, to hang out with each other.

Eric Siu 42:00 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 42:01 And the guy was a nobody, but the fact that he brought them all together and did the groundwork of-

Eric Siu 42:04 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 42:04 ... being like, "Hey, this person's coming. Will you come?"

Eric Siu 42:06 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 42:07 Means that now this whole thing is happening by virtue-

Eric Siu 42:09 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 42:09 ... of this one person being the organizer.

Eric Siu 42:11 Yeah. Dude, I'll, I'll give you an example here. So, so the, in, in 2018, so I, I put together this group, and we went to Cabo, and so I picked out this, like, this mansion. It was like, it looks like it's, like, Tony Stark's mansion, right? Um, and we got, like, 10 people together. And, you know, we, we did ATVs. We went around, like, you know, um, people got massages and stuff. We, we, like, shared, like, you know, the, the best business tactics and all that type of stuff, right? What's going on with our business.

Ali Abdaal 42:35 Mm-hmm.

Eric Siu 42:35 People were super transparent with each other. And that was a situation where I didn't try to make a profit. Everyone just paid cost to go. And I, I call these founders retreats, right? Um, and we went, and everyone loved it, and w- From that group eventually we established like a core group of six, and then every year when we go to one of these we'll add like four other, like other peop- b- four other people that, that are interesting. Um, and so I'll- on one of these trips, like maybe a year or two later, we, um, we were on like a boat ride, right? And we had two separate boats. We were looking at turtles, manatees, dolphins. We were like in a tropical area.

Ali Abdaal 43:06 Mm.

Eric Siu 43:07 And one of the guys was like, "Hey, um, Ali, you're doing really well with your business. What keyword would you like to rank number one for in Google?" And you're like, "I would like to rank number one for this keyword."

Ali Abdaal 43:18 Yeah.

Eric Siu 43:18 "It w- it's very valuable to me." And then the original person, let's call him Bob, Bob was like, "Okay, no problem. Um, we'll work out a deal."

Eric Siu 43:26 Three months later, Bob was ranking number one for that keyword on Google, and Bob pulls in $1 million a year in profit from that very specific conversation. Just from that conversation. So $4 million a year basically from that little conversation. Like, that's the magic that happens from these things. And who, who's he gonna remember for putting the event together?

Ali Abdaal 43:45 Mm-hmm.

Eric Siu 43:46 Right?

Ali Abdaal 43:47 Yeah.

Eric Siu 43:47 And so it's like it's worth it to do these things.

Ali Abdaal 43:50 Yeah. I, I was very inspired by that, um, like the, the, the mastermind that you ran a few... Was it y- was it last year? No, it was a few months ago.

Eric Siu 43:57 It was this year, yeah.

Ali Abdaal 43:57 It was this year in Miami.

Eric Siu 43:58 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 43:58 So I ran a sort of creator retreat in the UK-

Eric Siu 44:01 Nice

Ali Abdaal 44:02 ... uh, and invited like 10, 12 people.

Eric Siu 44:04 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 44:04 And it was great. We just got some random-ass Airbnb in the middle of nowhere.

Eric Siu 44:07 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 44:07 And I did it this sort of mastermind format where we split up into group-

Eric Siu 44:10 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 44:10 ... and people had the hot seat for a few minutes-

Eric Siu 44:11 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 44:12 ... or like 20 minutes. And people got so much value out of that, and it was so fun.

Eric Siu 44:15 Mm-hmm.

Ali Abdaal 44:15 And Bob, my assistant, took care of all of the sort of admin and-

Eric Siu 44:18 Nice

Ali Abdaal 44:19 ... logist- uh, logistics for that, which was, which was amazing.

Eric Siu 44:21 Yep.

Ali Abdaal 44:22 And it was great. And so I really wanna do more of these things. Um-

Eric Siu 44:24 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 44:24 ... but yeah. I like-

Eric Siu 44:25 It, 'cause-

Ali Abdaal 44:25 I like that you do this very consciously

Eric Siu 44:27 ... you do it, and like if you do it, you also have the power to define the content-

Ali Abdaal 44:30 Mm

Eric Siu 44:31 ... the people, where you're gonna do it as well. And I'm like I'm pretty picky with stuff.

Ali Abdaal 44:35 Mm-hmm.

Eric Siu 44:35 So I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm happy to take it on, so yeah.

Ali Abdaal 44:39 Nice. Eric, thank you so much. This has been great.

Eric Siu 44:41 Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Ali Abdaal 44:41 Uh, where can people find out more about you and the work that you do?

Eric Siu 44:43 Yeah. Uh, you can just go to @ericosiu on the Twitters or Instagram, and that's the easiest way.

Ali Abdaal 44:49 Brilliant. Thank you very much.

Eric Siu 44:50 Thank you.

Ali Abdaal 44:51 Good stuff.

Eric Siu 44:51 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 44:52 All right, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode. So thanks for watching. Uh, do hit the subscribe button if you aren't already, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.