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How Oliur Made $600,000 with Tumblr Themes - Deep Dive with Ali Abdaal

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Ali AbdaalhostOliurguest

Oct 18, 20211h 20mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

95 min read · 19,040 words

0:00 – 1:19
Intro
1. AAAli Abdaal
  Hello, and welcome to Deep Dive, the podcast that delves into the minds of entrepreneurs, creators, and other inspiring people to uncover their journeys towards finding joy and fulfillment at work and in life. My name is Ali, and in each episode, I chat to my guests about the philosophies, strategies, and tools that have helped them along the path to living a life of happiness and meaning. This week, I sit down with web designer, content creator, and entrepreneur Oliur. Known for his polished, minimalist aesthetic online and premium tech blog UltraLinx, Oliur has built a following of over 100,000 to which he shares his tips on tech, lifestyle, and financial independence. In our conversation, we talk about everything from dropping out of school and making $600,000 from selling Tumblr themes-
2. OLOliur
  I, I'm in a very fortunate position where I get to do stuff that I enjoy already for work.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
4. OLOliur
  And I just happen to also make money with it
5. AAAli Abdaal
  ... to the art of dropshipping and the lessons he learned from beating cancer. All right. Oliur, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?
6. OLOliur
  I'm doing okay.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  We st- we still don't have a name for the podcast. We were brainstorming podcast names-
8. OLOliur
  Yeah
9. AAAli Abdaal
  ... earlier this morning.
10. OLOliur
  I liked Unplugged.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Unplugged. Okay.
12. OLOliur
  I liked Unplugged. But, but, but it's not my podcast.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  I mean, Unplugged could work, Afternoon Tea, Deep Dive. I'm, I'm sure-
14. OLOliur
  No, Afternoon Tea please no
15. AAAli Abdaal
  ... I'm sure by the time this goes out, we actually will have a name for the podcast.
16. OLOliur
  Yeah.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  And so when, when I do my intro about you, I'll, I'll say, "Hey, friends. Welcome back to the mm podcast."
18. OLOliur
  [laughs] Yeah.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  And [laughs] people won't know that this is a... Um, anyway, first thing I wanted to ask you,
1:19 – 4:06
Making $600,000 from Tumblr Themes
1. AAAli Abdaal
  how the hell have you made over $600,000 from selling-
2. OLOliur
  [laughs]
3. AAAli Abdaal
  ... Tumblr themes? Like, what, what's going on there? What was the story?
4. OLOliur
  Okay, so this is a good story. So I, I've, I've done a video on it before, but I'll just go through it. I can't remember exactly what I said. But, um, obviously I, I was into, I was into Tumblr. I was into using Tumblr. I had my own Tumblr blog, um, where I used to post images and stuff. It was literally like having a mood board. That's what, that's how I used Tumblr. I used it as a mood board. I liked posting images on there, and I thought, "Hey, I wanna modify my Tumblr website. I wanna, I wanna, I wanna make it look more like what I want it to look like. You know, I want it to be more me." So I started messing around with the code and stuff, messing around with the design and stuff. I thought, "Hey, you know, let's, let's see what I can do," and I sort of just fell into messing around and, and making Tumblr themes. It was literally by chance. And then I could see, you know, hey, Tumblr had a Tumblr Theme Garden. They were selling themes on there. I had no idea how much people were making on there, to be honest. I thought it was maybe, like, $1,000, $2,000 a month. Um, so then I started just making themes, going into it not really having high expectations. Went into it, and then here I was one or two months where I made, like, $30,000 a month, and I was, I was just like, "What?" I was, like, 21 at the time. So you can imagine a 21-year-old having that sort of money. It's just like, holy crap, like, what am I gonna do now? I feel like that was actually a very big turning point in my life, because before that I was earning quite little money. Um, but the Tumblr themes definitely transformed my life. Tumblr probably don't know that.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
6. OLOliur
  They probably don't know that. They actually literally changed my life in terms of what I could do and the possibilities that came along from that.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  So you had a Tumblr blog, and you decided you wanted to modify your own page to make it look more like you, and then you thought, "Let's sell, sell"... How much, how much were you selling these themes for?
8. OLOliur
  So Tumblr has three different pricing models. Well, three pricing, pricing tiers: $9, $19, and $49. I was trying to make themes on the higher end, $49. There were some s- more simpler themes that were n- $19, but most of them were $49 each.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. And so you make the theme once, and then you can sell it multiple times for $49.
10. OLOliur
  Exactly.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Whoever wants to use that theme to make their Tumblr page look like yours can use it.
12. OLOliur
  Exactly, yeah. Exactly.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  How, how did you know how to make Tumblr themes? Like, yeah.
14. OLOliur
  Well, Tumblr luckily have a very easy documentation that you can follow, and it's nowhere near as complicated as some of the other sort of platforms out there, like WordPress you could say. Tumblr is very, very simple. I think anyone who learns HTML and CSS can learn to make a Tumblr theme. It is very, very simple.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Fair play. So how, how old were you when you stumbled onto this goldmine of Tumblr themes?
16. OLOliur
  I, well, t- um, I knew of Tumblr since I was, like, 18, 19. But making actual Tumblr themes and making money, I was around, like, 20, 21 at the time.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, fair play. Okay. So I wonder if we can rewind back to sort of-
18. OLOliur
  Okay. [laughs]
19. AAAli Abdaal
  ... early life.
20. OLOliur
  Yeah.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  So let's say, y- you know, what were you like in, in secondary school, sort of age, age 11 to 18? How did you spend your time?
4:06 – 13:34
Early Life & Turning a Hobby into a Business
1. AAAli Abdaal
  Were you, like, a massive nerd back then as well? Like, what, what was the vibe?
2. OLOliur
  Ugh. I feel like I was one of those kids that sort of sat in the background at school, and I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I was a nerd, but I also wouldn't say I was like, oh, a really popular kid, you know? I was just passively going through school. Mainly because I didn't enjoy school. Um, but yeah, like, my school life, I, I didn't really enjoy school that much, if I'm honest. I'm not a very academic person.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. And then you didn't go to university.
4. OLOliur
  No.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  So what did, what did you do instead?
6. OLOliur
  So I went to college, because I didn't even do A levels. I, I went to college and I did, like, a level three course, level four course, something like that, um, on accounting and business. Because I thought, oh, I was going to become an accountant.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
8. OLOliur
  I'm really glad that didn't happen. But whilst I was doing that, that's when I started getting into computers and stuff. That's when I started getting into websites and stuff like that. Because I started my blog, the ultralinx.com ... D- I don't really post on it anymore. It's kind of dead now. But I started posting on that 2010, 2010. And what sparked that was an Android phone that I bought at the time. Bought an Android phone. I wanted to customize it. You know, changing your icons and wallpapers was, like, a really big thing. It was quite a nerdy thing to do. And I would share it on the blog, and I guess that's where I started when it comes to building any sort of online presence.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  So you were, you would've been around 17-ish at the time.
10. OLOliur
  Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Or thereabouts.
12. OLOliur
  17, 18, yeah.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. Uh, so it's a, it's a pretty random thought process to have at the age of 17. "You know what? I want to-
14. OLOliur
  [laughs]
15. AAAli Abdaal
  ... customize my Android phone, therefore I'm gonna start a blog." Like-
16. OLOliur
  Yeah
17. AAAli Abdaal
  ... what was the, w- what was the link there?
18. OLOliur
  So the first place that I actually started finding people customizing their phones was a forum. It was just a forum online, and people were posting their, their screens on the forum. They were posting their customizations on the forum. And I just thought to myself, "Hey, you know, why... I can post it on the forum, but I can also post it on a blog, my own sort of little corner of the internet," you could say. Um, so I'd post it there, and then I'd get people to come to my blog as well, and that's how I sort of built it and that's what sort of sparked me to make the blog.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. And this was a Tumblr blog?
20. OLOliur
  No, this was actually just a normal, like-
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Like WordPress or-
22. OLOliur
  No, it wasn't even WordPress. It was Google Blogspot.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, wow.
24. OLOliur
  So [laughs] really old school.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
26. OLOliur
  Really, really old school. But I moved it over to WordPress, I think in 2012.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. So two years later.
28. OLOliur
  Yeah.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  So what sort of stuff were you posting on the blog for that two-year period?
30. OLOliur
  Two-year period, I was just posting... I was posting anything I found interesting.
13:34 – 17:33
Finding Enjoyment Despite Struggles
1. AAAli Abdaal
  for the money, you're doing it because you enjoy it.
2. OLOliur
  Mm.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, I wanted to ask, did you enjoy, like, 100% of it or, like, 80% of it? Like, what were the-
4. OLOliur
  Yeah
5. AAAli Abdaal
  ... big, because, because everything has bits that are, like, less fun.
6. OLOliur
  Sure.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Like, how do you, how did you think about those back in the day?
8. OLOliur
  Yeah, sure. So the way I see it is sometimes you gotta go through a little bit of struggle here and there to have, like, that delayed gratification you could say, where, you know, going through a struggle for a little or just doing something you don't like means that it can, you can do something that you do like almost in a way.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
10. OLOliur
  It's like, it's like a vice versa sort of exchange almost in a way. That's how I see it. Um, and I still, I still sort of stand by that. I still sort of think to myself, "Hey, you know, if I work hard now, if I do this now, if I just get it done now, I don't have to think about it later." Even for example, you know, [laughs] I don't know, you probably don't know what this is like, but I hate having my kitchen dirty, for example. I hate having the dishes out and stuff. I just think to myself, "It only takes me five minutes to put my dishes away. I'll just do it now because once it's done I don't have to think about it later on."
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
12. OLOliur
  It's that sort of thing for me.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. So what was the... What, what, what were the areas of struggle that, that were, were the equivalent to the putting the dishes away-
14. OLOliur
  Sure
15. AAAli Abdaal
  ... in this sort of business?
16. OLOliur
  So when I, when I was doing the Tumblr themes, for example, the hardest part was doing the more complex coding. So I wasn't very good with Java- JavaScript, for example. So something like that, I really didn't enjoy doing it. I didn't wanna learn it. So with the themes that I had made, the simpler themes, I used the money that I made from those themes to hire an external developer to make and do the more complex stuff for me.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
18. OLOliur
  And you, you can hire someone to do that quite cheaply if, if you find someone online, you know. Doesn't have to be someone in the UK. It can e- be, it can be someone in the UK or someone in the US. But finding a JavaScript developer just to make a few changes here and there to add some-
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
20. OLOliur
  ... things to a theme that you've already made is quite affordable.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. No, fair play. And, and just on this note of, like, having, having fun with stuff-
22. OLOliur
  Mm
23. AAAli Abdaal
  ... do you think for you, you... Do you think y- for, for you it was more that you found something that you happened to find fun, or alternatively that you found ways to make this thing fun for yourself? Like, what, what... Yeah.
24. OLOliur
  I think I found something that was just fun. Like, I, I wasn't looking for it. I just, I literally just stumbled across it. Like, I was into customizing my phone at the time anyway, like, you know, when I, when I... When we talk about the blog, starting the blog and stuff. I just enjoy customizing my phone. The side benefit was, hey, I can share this with other people.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
26. OLOliur
  And then obviously it just sort of spiraled into doing all these different things, and now here I am doing this with you [laughs] I guess.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
28. OLOliur
  Which is just so hilarious when you, when I think back, like, all these little things have led me here.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. And do you think... W- would it be fair to say that you were, like, w- kind of just ch- chasing the things that you found fun at each junction and it happened to lead you here, or was there more of a sort of strategic vision behind any of this stuff?
30. OLOliur
  There is some strategic sort of, strategic sort of vision. Um, but I, I, I don't think it's, it's, like, very... I don't, like I said, I don't really have, like, a proper structure. Um, I sort of just think to myself, "Hey, okay, what is it I enjoy doing now?" Like, a- as an adult now, as a, as a 28-year-old, I think to myself, "What is it I enjoy doing now?" And, you know, "Can I, can I make money from it? Is it something I can enj- I can see myself doing in, say, two years, five years, 10 years or whatever?" Um, that's how I see things now. But I wasn't like that when I was, like, 20 years old, 21 years old. I kinda just thought, "Hey, let's just see what happens. Let's see how things go," because you just don't know. You don't have the life experience, right? So you just don't know.
17:33 – 19:56
Building a team
1. OLOliur
  I got my first office and made my first hire.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
3. OLOliur
  So 2015, June 2015, I got my own office space, and that's actually where I started making YouTube videos as well. My first YouTube video is a tour of my office space-
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay
5. OLOliur
  ... that I made with my iPhone. You don't even see my face on it.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep.
7. OLOliur
  It's literally just me going around showing my office space.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Why did you get an office space?
9. OLOliur
  Um, just because I was still at home, living at home with my parents.
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
11. OLOliur
  Um, working from a room which was, like, three by three. It was absolutely-
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
13. OLOliur
  ... tiny. I couldn't even fit a wardrobe in it. I had, like, a bed and a desk. That's it.
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. So you're making 30K a month and you're thinking, "You know what? Let's like- [laughs]
15. OLOliur
  [laughs] Yeah
16. AAAli Abdaal
  ... let's, like, upgrade-
17. OLOliur
  Let's start spending some money, yeah
18. AAAli Abdaal
  ... the life setup." Okay.
19. OLOliur
  So I ended up getting an office for quite cheap. It was only, like, 9,000 pounds a year, so very, very cheap rate-
20. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
21. OLOliur
  ... for an office space. Um, but it was, like, the size of my parents' house. So I just thought, "Hey, this is good-
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
23. OLOliur
  ... money to invest in." And it means I don't have my parents always sort of like coming in and being like, "Hey, Oli, you-
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
25. OLOliur
  ... need to do this, you need to do that."
26. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
27. OLOliur
  You know, I don't have people walking in randomly, you know, whatever. So have a proper office space where I can actually work from-
28. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
29. OLOliur
  ... and where I can have employees-
30. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
19:56 – 27:28
Growing Online
1. OLOliur
  I was like any person. Start looking for inspiration-
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep
3. OLOliur
  ... for office space setups and stuff like that, right? [laughs]
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Of course.
5. OLOliur
  The bulk of my channels are like-
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
7. OLOliur
  ... our office workspace setups are some of the most popular videos on the channels, right?
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
9. OLOliur
  So I saw all these little setups on, on, on YouTube and stuff, and I thought to myself, "Hey, I can just share my one." Because I was also posting on Instagram at the time, and I would share pictures of my workspace on Instagram. And I used to get a lot of comments of people asking me, "Hey, can you post a video of it on YouTube? Have you ever considered-
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, okay
11. OLOliur
  ... posting a video?" Um, and that's where I sort of fell into just doing YouTube.
12. AAAli Abdaal
  We're gonna take a very quick break to introduce our sponsor for this episode, and that is Brilliant. I've been using Brilliant for the last two plus years. They're a fantastic platform for learning maths, science, and computer science with engaging and interactive online courses. And the great thing about Brilliant is that they really teach stuff from a very first principles based approach. It's almost like the way that we were taught in places like Oxford and Cambridge, where you learn a concept, and then you apply the concept to an interesting problem, rather than just being spoon-fed stuff like we initially learnt in school. My favorite courses on Brilliant are the computer science ones. Uh, as some of you guys might know, I was torn between applying to medicine and computer science. I went for medicine in the end, but I always had an affinity to computer science. And taking the courses on Brilliant, like their introduction to algorithms and their introduction to Python, really helped me get more of a grasp of computer science than I've ever had before. It's also great for learning how to code, which is an incredibly useful skill to have, especially if you wanna start a business. And I attribute, like, 98% of my business success to the fact that I learned how to code when I was in secondary school. So if you wanna check out the courses on math, science, and computer science, then head over to brilliant.org/deepdive, and the first 200 people to sign up with that link will get 20% off the annual premium subscription. So thank you, Brilliant, for sponsoring this episode. Okay, so your first video was the office tour. At, at what point did you decide, "Hey, I'm, I'm going to become a YouTuber and start actually making-
13. OLOliur
  [laughs]
14. AAAli Abdaal
  ... YouTube videos?"
15. OLOliur
  Well, it's funny because I still don't see myself as a YouTuber.
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
17. OLOliur
  Because I don't do YouTube full time. I still do YouTube probably two, two days a week, two and a half days a week.
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. Oh, you're a part-time YouTuber. [laughs]
19. OLOliur
  Yeah, I am usually a part-time YouTuber. Um, I don't know when I decided, "Hey, you know, I can just start doing YouTube videos." I think it is just because, uh, uh, I know the thing that you like to always say is you need to be consistent if you wanna build-
20. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
21. OLOliur
  ... a YouTube channel. You need to consistently post.
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep.
23. OLOliur
  But for me, it wasn't like that. For me, I was posting whenever I just wanted to post. I didn't have a schedule.
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
25. OLOliur
  I maybe post two videos a week, some, and then I might not post for like a month, because I was still running other parts of my business. But as YouTube started growing and as, as the income started growing from YouTube, I realized, "Hey, I'm onto something here." And I started dedicating more time to it, and that's why now I dedicate two days a week to it.
26. AAAli Abdaal
  Sure.
27. OLOliur
  But I don't ever see YouTube becoming a full-time thing for me. Ideally, I don't actually want it to be.
28. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
29. OLOliur
  Mainly because I like doing other stuff. I like starting other businesses. I like running other businesses. Um, I, I, I just can't see myself doing YouTube full time.
30. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. How, how did you get your first, let's say, 1,000 to 10,000 subscribers?
27:28 – 43:34
Getting into Dropshipping
1. OLOliur
  dropshipping was a big thing at the time.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
3. OLOliur
  And I started doing dropshipping just to see what it's like, and I realized dropshipping, it, it... At the time, it was a bit of a... I feel like it got a bad rep.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. So for, for, for people who might be listening who don't know what Shopify or dropshipping are, or what... how would you describe those things?
5. OLOliur
  So Shopify is just a, the platform. So you use Shopify to sell products online, physical products online. And then dropshipping is when you have products on your store, but then you don't actually have the product in stock with you. You have someone else send the products, maybe a factory in China or a factory in the UK or a manufacturer. Or it could just be old Jim who lives down the road and makes, makes leather wallets in his little shed or whatever.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
7. OLOliur
  You know, he... You would just send the order to, to that person, to the dropshipper, and they would send the order directly to the customer. So there's no... You don't have to get involved with the actual product management and shipping the product. You're sort of just making the sale, getting the customer.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. So customer buys from your site, but what the customer probably doesn't realize is that behind the scenes, Jim has got his collection of leather goods.
9. OLOliur
  Yeah.
10. AAAli Abdaal
  And Jim is the one sending him the thing.
11. OLOliur
  Yes.
12. AAAli Abdaal
  But it's as if you're the one sending him the thing.
13. OLOliur
  Exactly.
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
15. OLOliur
  Which, which is actually-
16. AAAli Abdaal
  How does, how does that work? Like, why, why does that work?
17. OLOliur
  So it's funny, because I feel like dropshipping gets a bad rep-
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
19. OLOliur
  ... because of long shipping times and things like that. But what I think a lot of people don't realize is that every single major company in the world, apart from Amazon, does dropshipping. Even Apple does dropshipping.
20. AAAli Abdaal
  Wait, how, how so? [laughs]
21. OLOliur
  Because Apple obviously have a f- f- fulfillment center in Ireland, for example, um, for the UK, and that's where all the products are shipped from. And that fulfillment center might not actually be run by Apple.
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
23. OLOliur
  It might be run by completely third party.
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, when I get Apple products, they're from, like, Synctron or some-
25. OLOliur
  Exactly
26. AAAli Abdaal
  ... some company like that. I'm like, "What the hell is Synctron?" [laughs]
27. OLOliur
  Exactly.
28. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
29. OLOliur
  It's just a, it's just a third party handling all the logistics and the, and the shipping and everything for Apple. And that's a very common thing-
30. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay
43:34 – 45:22
What's Oliur's Empire like?
1. OLOliur
  got, I guess, digital products on my website, things like, um, Lightroom presets and, um, wallpapers-
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
3. OLOliur
  ... and icons and stuff. You know, they, they don't make an absolute ton of money. When I say they don't make a ton of money-
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
5. OLOliur
  ... they still make quite good money. Around, you know, it can be ... Well, it can vary. Some ... When I was doing the icons, for example, remember when i- iOS 14 icons-
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
7. OLOliur
  ... really blew up. Um, you know, I was making tens of thousands a month. Um, so yeah, it can vary so much. But icons and digital products. I sometimes take on client work, so consulting. You know, someone might hire me for even just half an hour.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
9. OLOliur
  And, 'cause they want feedback on a product, or they want feedback on their business or whatever.
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
11. OLOliur
  Um, and I can hopefully provide some value to them. Um, and that's it right now, I think. Yeah.
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. What's next for you? Like how do you, how do you, how do you think about what you want to do next? 'Cause you've got like a pretty comfortable sort of suite of products.
13. OLOliur
  Yeah.
14. AAAli Abdaal
  You could sit back and essentially live off this for-
15. OLOliur
  Sure
16. AAAli Abdaal
  ... the foreseeable future.
17. OLOliur
  Sure.
18. AAAli Abdaal
  How do, how do you think about what, what, what to do next?
19. OLOliur
  So I think at some point I would like to sell ulxstore.com. I'd like to sell it. Um, mainly because I think my interest in doing physical products has, has sort of shifted quite a bit. I realize that I want to do, um, more ... I, I feel like I want to sta- start a software as a service business. I don't know what yet. Trying to dabble in some ideas. Um, I think that's my next step, doing software as a service and of course growing the YouTube-
20. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
21. OLOliur
  ... posting on YouTube and stuff. Um, because I think it's always nice to have an audience that you can speak to, that you can share things with.
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. Awesome. So we've talked a lot about kinda the business side of life. I wonder if we can talk about some personal stuff.
23. OLOliur
  Sure. [laughs]
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, and so was it a year ago that, or w- longer than that, that you
45:22 – 51:38
Testicular Cancer Diagnosis
1. AAAli Abdaal
  got di- first, first diagnosed with, with cancer?
2. OLOliur
  Oh, yeah. [laughs]
3. AAAli Abdaal
  W- what was the-
4. OLOliur
  So-
5. AAAli Abdaal
  What was the story there?
6. OLOliur
  It's August 3rd now.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
8. OLOliur
  So I was diagnosed July 7th last ... Yeah, 2020.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. Sort of-
10. OLOliur
  That's when I was diagnosed
11. AAAli Abdaal
  ... peak, peak lockdown.
12. OLOliur
  Yeah. And-
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
14. OLOliur
  ... so it's funny because I had ... I, I, I think I've spoken to you, to you about this before. I had symptoms since like April.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
16. OLOliur
  And it was since I came back from LA, when I came back from being in LA. Um, and I think the first symptom was just lower back pain. I had a lot of lower back pain. I thought at first it was sitting at a computer all day.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
18. OLOliur
  You know, we both sit at a computer all day, just having a bad back, not sitting properly.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep.
20. OLOliur
  That's what I thought it was at first. [laughs]
21. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs] Yeah.
22. OLOliur
  Something very basic.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  And just positions. Yep. [laughs]
24. OLOliur
  Just our position-
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
26. OLOliur
  ... not slouching. Um, but it, it just didn't get better, and it was a very weird sort of aching pain. Went to my doctors and stuff, went to A&E and stuff, and they thought it was like kidney stones or whatever. They didn't find anything. And then it went. It went for a little while. And then, um, July, I woke up one morning and I just found it very difficult to breathe, and I was like, "What's going on here?" I thought, hey, you know, why am I out of breath? It's like, it's like, you know, when you go for a very intense sprint.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
28. OLOliur
  Like a run, a sprint.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep.
30. OLOliur
  And then you suddenly stop and you have to like bend over-
51:38 – 54:43
Dealing With Chemotherapy
1. AAAli Abdaal
  chemo like?
2. OLOliur
  Oh, chemo's the worst thing I can e- Oh. [laughs] It's the worst thing to describe. I feel like... Oh, I d- I don't really know how to explain it. It's like being a zombie.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
4. OLOliur
  It is like being a zombie. It's like, it's like you, you have this body and you have this brain that you can't control. But you still, you can still understand what's going on, but you can't control anything. Like, I couldn't, I couldn't even look at a TV. I couldn't look at my phone. I couldn't look, I couldn't focus. I couldn't drive. I couldn't do anything when I was on chemo. It, it was just nice, it is literally just walking like you're half dead. That's the, that's the only way I can explain it. People obviously say chemo is hell, but it honestly, like, it's, it's, it's worse than, like, you can even think it is.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh. [laughs]
6. OLOliur
  Like, it's, it's awful.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. [laughs]
8. OLOliur
  It's awful.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  So it's fair to say you won't wanna do it again. [laughs]
10. OLOliur
  No, no, 100%.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. [laughs]
12. OLOliur
  100%. Not unless obviously I have to.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. So how long, how long, how long were you in zombie mode for?
14. OLOliur
  So I had t- I had 10 weeks of chemo, um, and it was in three cycles. Four c- yeah, three, three and a half cycles sort of. So I'd go in for the first week, and I'd go in for three days, eight hours a day.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Oof.
16. OLOliur
  So I would be sitting there with a drip in me, um, IV or whatever you call, I dunno what the technical term is. All my, all of my arms were just ruined from all of it, but I'd have the machine just pumping the fluids through me eight hours of the, eight hours of the day. The second and the third week, I would just go in once, um, once a week for around two to three hours. Um, and then I would repeat the cycle again, you know, eight hours a day for three days-
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
18. OLOliur
  ... for the, for the next cycle, and then two weeks.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  What were the conversations with the other patients like?
20. OLOliur
  So I was by far the youngest patient there.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
22. OLOliur
  I was by far... Everyone there was much older than I was, but obviously, uh, the people who took care of me, they were amazing.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
24. OLOliur
  Because I dunno how they do it day in, day out.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
26. OLOliur
  But they're the happiest people ever. They, they literally keep you happy. They literally-
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
28. OLOliur
  ... keep you, keep you positive. And all the people there as well, like the, 'cause obviously everyone's a lot older than me, 60s, 70s, 80s sort of people, and everyone, it's almost like a big family.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
30. OLOliur
  Everyone, 'cause everyone's going through the same thing. Everyone, e- obviously everyone's got different types of cancer.
54:43 – 1:04:04
Life lessons From Cancer
1. AAAli Abdaal
  social etiquette around someone sits next to you in the chemo chair? Is it like a bus where you, or a, a bit on the, on the underground where you're not gonna make eye contact?
2. OLOliur
  No.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Is it like an airplane? Like, what, how-
4. OLOliur
  [laughs]
5. AAAli Abdaal
  What does, what does it look like?
6. OLOliur
  Everyone says hello.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
8. OLOliur
  Everyone's like, "Hey, how's it going?" And everyone, the first question they ask each other is, um, "What, what are you here for?"
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
10. OLOliur
  "What's your cancer?"
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
12. OLOliur
  "What's your chemo like?" You know, "What's your treatment like?"
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
14. OLOliur
  And there are, obviously the co- the most common question I got was, "How old are you?"
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
16. OLOliur
  Because I was just, I just looked like a young person-
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
18. OLOliur
  ... to be there.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  So you would say 27/28.
20. OLOliur
  I was 27 at the time.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  How, how would people respond to that?
22. OLOliur
  People just feel sorry [laughs]
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
24. OLOliur
  People just feel sorry for me. They're like, "Oh, you poor thing."
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
26. OLOliur
  "Oh, you don't deserve this"
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
28. OLOliur
  ... or this or that.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
30. OLOliur
  And I was like, uh, obviously like it's really nice.
1:04:04 – 1:11:31
Making Your Own Luck
1. AAAli Abdaal
  ask you specifically about. So you, you say quite a lot in your YouTube videos, uh, words to the effect of, "Damn, I'm a lucky dude. I'm so grateful for the life I'm living."
2. OLOliur
  [laughs]
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Um-
4. OLOliur
  I am honestly very, very grateful f- to be in the position I'm in.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. How, how much would you feel, uh, luck has played a role in your success?
6. OLOliur
  So this is a weird thing-
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
8. OLOliur
  ... with luck, because it's not a thing that you can measure.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  No.
10. OLOliur
  But I like the idea and the phrase that pe- a lot of people say where you make your own luck. You put yourself in positions. You, you, you sort of, um, try, try to make all these different things align to work together, and I, I think, I think that's where maybe I've gotten a bit lucky. For example, I feel like I'm being- I'm lucky here to be on the podca- podcast with you.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
12. OLOliur
  To be on this video with you, because inevitably, obviously, you have a lot more subscribers than I do. You have 2 million subscribers.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
14. OLOliur
  I have, like, 200,000. I have a 10th that you do.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
16. OLOliur
  But, you know, here I am, because we get along, because we're good friends. Here I am, and hopefully some of the people who are gonna wa- be watching this are gonna also come over to my channel.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, everyone subscribe to Oliur. Link below. [laughs]
18. OLOliur
  Yeah, definitely subscribe.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
20. OLOliur
  Otherwise, I don't want
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
22. OLOliur
  ...
23. AAAli Abdaal
  But that's also not really luck, though. That's, like, sort of-
24. OLOliur
  You see? This is what I mean.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, it-
26. OLOliur
  Everyone has their own interpretation, right?
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. I guess the way that I, that I think of it, it's, it's that luck is sort of two things. Number one is, like, how often do lucky events happen to you?
28. OLOliur
  Mm.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  And then secondly, what is your ability to capitalize on those lucky events?
30. OLOliur
  Sure.
1:11:31 – 1:12:40
Do you have any gratitude practices?
1. AAAli Abdaal
  any kind of gratitude, meditation, journaling type practice for this sort of stuff?
2. OLOliur
  I don't have any sort of, um... Like, I don't write anything down. Like, I, I won't... Journaling I feel like is something I should really do, because journaling is such a good way to see what you did on a specific day-
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
4. OLOliur
  ... instead of all the days becoming a blur.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
6. OLOliur
  But there are moments, like, where I'll just sit at my computer or I'll sit in bed, it can be anywhere, I'm just like, "Man." Like, I'll just reflect. I'll just be like-
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
8. OLOliur
  ... "God, I'm just so lucky."
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
10. OLOliur
  I'm just so lucky to, to do the things I do-
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
12. OLOliur
  ... to really not have many complaints. Especially when I see, like, other people, other friends, when I see, you know, when you see news stories, I feel like reading news online is probably not a good way, good mental health thing.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
14. OLOliur
  But, you know, even like for example with the Black Lives Matter thing, all that sort of stuff, I think to myself, "Man, like, there are some people going through some really hard stuff."
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
16. OLOliur
  And here I am, like, you know, pretty easy.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. [laughs]
18. OLOliur
  Like, you know, I'm just living quite comfortably.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Like, having a good time making YouTube videos.
20. OLOliur
  Yeah. And like I, I wish everyone could experience the same thing. I really, I really wish everyone could.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  If someone was in your position as a teenager who didn't want to go to university, and they're struggling to find what to do,
1:12:40 – 1:16:39
Advice for Finding Your Path
1. AAAli Abdaal
  what would be your advice to them? For whatever that's worth.
2. OLOliur
  I get the, I get-
3. AAAli Abdaal
  I'm sure you get this question
4. OLOliur
  ... I get this question. And it's a really, really difficult question to answer because it varies from person to person. If I could actually go back and do computer science at university, I would, because it's what I enjoy doing.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
6. OLOliur
  So finding that thing you enjoy I think is the tough part. Because a lot of people, I don't think they, they really know what they enjoy.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep.
8. OLOliur
  Um, in our sort of day and age, you could say I sound like an old man saying that.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
10. OLOliur
  But, you know, you can, you can literally find a career in playing computer games-
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
12. OLOliur
  ... which is just absurd. Um, when I was... I'm sure when you were a kid-
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
14. OLOliur
  ... when I was a kid, playing computer games and making money, that's the most craziest thing ever.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
16. OLOliur
  Like, who? What? So it's hard. I, I think it, it, it is a really hard question to answer. I don't have an answer-
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
18. OLOliur
  ... if I'm honest. Um, but I think it really is just a matter of finding what you love to do and seeing how you can monetize that thing.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, the way I kinda think of this is that if you- If, if you can do that, then that's fantastic. Like, if you genuinely find something that you love to do and can also monetize it, then you're, you're kind of winning-
20. OLOliur
  Oh
21. AAAli Abdaal
  ... winning already. The thing I often think about is what if, like, like for the people who, A, don't really know what they love to do/the thing they love to do, i.e., I don't know, baking or playing the guitar-
22. OLOliur
  [laughs] Yeah
23. AAAli Abdaal
  ... is a probabilistically unlikely thing to actually be able to make money from.
24. OLOliur
  Mm.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, like, people are unlikely to become the next John Mayer or to become the next insert baker name here. [laughs] Um, and so in that, in that context, often, like, yeah, do you... How, like how, how would you think about, like, if, if you knew someone who was in that position?
26. OLOliur
  Someone in that position-
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
28. OLOliur
  ... I, I think I, I would tell them to try everything.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
30. OLOliur
  Like try and-
1:16:39 – 1:19:37
Would your life change if you had millions in the bank?
1. AAAli Abdaal
  and you never had to worry about money ever again, what would you do?
2. OLOliur
  If I had 20 million in the bank, I'd still play games.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
4. OLOliur
  I'd still play computer games.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
6. OLOliur
  Do you mean work-wise?
7. AAAli Abdaal
  I mean, what would... I, okay, I... Let me be more specific. Like, what would your day, an, an ordinary day in your life look like that is different to what it... And, and to what extent is that different from what it is now?
8. OLOliur
  It's, it's a good question because-
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
10. OLOliur
  ... I think when you hear a lot of people who have made that sort of money, their lives don't really change that much in terms-
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
12. OLOliur
  ... of what they do, because they still keep doing what they were doing before. But if I think of it from my position-
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
14. OLOliur
  ... where I am right now, I think to myself, I would probably still do, still be doing YouTube.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
16. OLOliur
  I'd probably do more photography.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep.
18. OLOliur
  I prob- I would probably travel a bit more, because I could afford to go first class everywhere. [laughs]
19. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
20. OLOliur
  And I would spend a lot more time with friends and family. Because, for example, David Dobrik, great example. He just goes out and buys cars for friends. I would absolutely love to just ask a friend and be like, "Hey, what do you need? Here's the money," and instantly make their life better just because I could.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
22. OLOliur
  Like, something like that would be so gratifying for me. And I feel like that, that is literally what I'd try to do.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. And so, I mean, apo- apart from that last bit around kind of buying fancy-ass cars for your friends-
24. OLOliur
  [laughs]
25. AAAli Abdaal
  ... and the bit about flying first class everywhere-
26. OLOliur
  Yeah
27. AAAli Abdaal
  ... what's stopping you from doing the rest of it, like, right now?
28. OLOliur
  I think I do do quite, quite a bit of it already.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
30. OLOliur
  Like gaming, for example. Investing, well, investing, it's not investing. Just, like, playing 1,500 hours of Apex-
1:19:37 – 1:20:38
Final Thoughts
1. AAAli Abdaal
  anyone listening?
2. OLOliur
  Yeah, subscribe to my channel. [laughs]
3. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
4. OLOliur
  No, honestly, like, um, I think, like, like, if we go back to the cancer thing, I think it is just a matter of... I think the biggest thing I've learned is not caring about what other people think and just, just doing whatever you want.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
6. OLOliur
  Doing whatever is healthy, but doing whatever you want, and really just not caring about what other people think.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Good place to leave things. Yeah, I feel like I, I often have this where with regards to the medicine stuff-
8. OLOliur
  Mm
9. AAAli Abdaal
  ... where my mum has a very strong preference that I do medicine.
10. OLOliur
  [laughs]
11. AAAli Abdaal
  And-
12. OLOliur
  Typical Asian mum.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Typical Asian mum. [laughs]
14. OLOliur
  [laughs]
15. AAAli Abdaal
  And I have a strong preference of, like, medicine is fun, but it's just not as fun as the stuff I'm doing right now.
16. OLOliur
  Sure.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  And given that I feel like I'm in this very, very privileged position where I can do what I want, um, you know, full-time medicine certainly wouldn't be on that list of, of things.
18. OLOliur
  Mm.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, but yeah. Anyway, good chat. Thank you for coming on the podcast.
20. OLOliur
  Thank you for having me.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Everyone subscribe to Oliur.
22. OLOliur
  Yes, appreciate it.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  And, um, we'll see you on the next episode of whatever we end up calling this podcast.