How To Build A Multi-Million Dollar Empire In Your 20s - Grace Beverley

1. 0:00 – 2:20

   Intro

   1. GBGrace Beverley0:00

      We all have an obligation to make money. The large majority of us have an obligation to make money. And whenever you attach obligation to anything you love, there's always going to be an element of it feeling like a chore.

   2. AAAli Abdaal0:11

      Mm.

   3. GBGrace Beverley0:11

      I think probably what's been slightly missold is this idea that you're going to have a big passion, something you love, it's going to be monetizable, and you're never going to hate it or burn out. Like, we need to preserve the fact that, and we need to understand the fact that you can love what you do and feel incredibly privileged to do what you do and still not wake up every morning and be like-

   4. AAAli Abdaal0:34

      [laughs]

   5. GBGrace Beverley0:35

      ... skipping out the door.

   6. AAAli Abdaal0:37

      Hello, and welcome back to Deep Dive, the ongoing podcast where every week I get the chance to speak to entrepreneurs, authors, creators, and other inspiring people, and we find out how they got to where they are and the strategies and tools that we can learn from them to apply to help live our best lives. And today what you're about to hear is a conversation between me and Grace Beverley. Grace is an entrepreneur and author of this excellent book, uh, Working Hard, Hardly Working. Grace is interesting because she's like an OG influencer from like back in the day. And for, I think, three years she grew a fitness, fitness account on Instagram and on YouTube to like stupidly high proportions. But then she actually decided to kind of scrap the being an influencer lifestyle in favor of starting two businesses while she was studying full-time at Oxford University. One of them is called TALA, which is a sustainable active wear brand, and the other one is called Shreddy, which is like this workout app for working out and fitness and like sells physical products. And these two are like incredibly interesting businesses which Grace has managed to create in her early 20s, and I think she's now just 25 years old, having written a book, it's a bestseller, just crushing it across all these different fields of life. And so we talk a lot about the idea of entrepreneurship. We talk a lot about productivity and the balance between productivity and self-care. And we kind of dig into a little bit of Grace's history as to how she started doing the influencer thing and posting fitness videos on Instagram, and why she ultimately decided that that was not the life for her. So incredibly enjoyable conversation. Uh, super nice of Grace to hop on the podcast and for us to have a conversation in person. And yeah, the book is sick. Uh, I've read it recently and I'm just like blown away by how many interesting ideas she's got in the book. You know, this idea of productivity and the idea of self-care and how we can kind of balance this theoretical fine line between the two. So I hope you enjoy this conversation between me and Grace

2. 2:20 – 7:25

   Being a music scholar

   1. AAAli Abdaal2:20

      Beverley. It seems like you're just doing a ton of stuff. I kind of wanted to talk about all of the things that you're doing. But I thought the place we could start was your background as a chorister.

   2. GBGrace Beverley2:29

      Ooh, he's gone way back.

   3. AAAli Abdaal2:30

      Yeah, 'cause like-

   4. GBGrace Beverley2:31

      You've done your research

   5. AAAli Abdaal2:32

      ... so, uh, well, when I was year seven to nine I was in the South End Boys Choir in my school.

   6. GBGrace Beverley2:36

      Were you?

   7. AAAli Abdaal2:36

      And then my voice broke and then suddenly I was a bass.

   8. GBGrace Beverley2:38

      Yeah, then they kick you out.

   9. AAAli Abdaal2:39

      And I didn't really like singing the bass lines, and I couldn't really read the music. And it's not, it's not the tune, and so it's not... It's, it's, it's a lot harder. But my understanding is that you and all of your sisters as well were like big into choir stuff, and I wanted to ask what is that like being in that kind of world?

   10. GBGrace Beverley2:52

       Well, I actually think that if you traced like my almost manic obsession with being busy all the time-

   11. AAAli Abdaal2:59

       Mm.

   12. GBGrace Beverley3:00

       Not intentionally. I know it's a bad thing. I know I don't actually want it, but like I will shamelessly say that my like self-worth is entirely like kind of probably like related to my like productivity/how busy I am.

   13. AAAli Abdaal3:12

       Mm.

   14. GBGrace Beverley3:12

       I know it's wrong. It's still the case. We're working on it. But I would say, actually, I went to Salisbury, which is where I was a chorister when I was... I auditioned when I was eight. I went when I was nine. And so you're doing that alongside school, which means you're rehearsing for two hours in the morning and every other day about... it's about four to five hours in the evening-

   15. AAAli Abdaal3:35

       Oh, wow

   16. GBGrace Beverley3:35

       ... 'cause it's rehearsal and service.

   17. AAAli Abdaal3:37

       This was Salisbury Cathedral?

   18. GBGrace Beverley3:38

       This is Salisbury Cathedral.

   19. AAAli Abdaal3:39

       Nice. That's cool.

   20. GBGrace Beverley3:40

       So every day, and then on the weekends you do either Saturday night and Sunday night, or you do Friday night and Sunday morning.

   21. AAAli Abdaal3:49

       That's pretty intense.

   22. GBGrace Beverley3:50

       So yeah. So it's about 20 hours on top of your schoolwork. So I th- so from the age of nine, I was doing... Yeah. You, you get up early, you do your two hours before school, your four to five hours after school, and then your weekends, and you also don't have school holidays. [laughs]

   23. AAAli Abdaal4:09

       You don't have school holidays?

   24. GBGrace Beverley4:10

       It's starting to sound a bit illegal.

   25. AAAli Abdaal4:12

       Yeah, it does. [laughs]

   26. GBGrace Beverley4:13

       Um, but-

   27. AAAli Abdaal4:13

       Almost like child labor or something.

   28. GBGrace Beverley4:15

       Yeah. [laughs] Well, it was, um, by choice, and also you go to the private school for, um, hugely discounted.

   29. AAAli Abdaal4:22

       Mm.

   30. GBGrace Beverley4:22

       So because you have to go to that school to be part of the choir.
3. 7:25 – 14:17

   Do you monetise something you love?

   1. GBGrace Beverley7:25

      do it more.

   2. AAAli Abdaal7:25

      S- so the reason I ask about the music stuff is that in your book, and I was listening to your interview with Steven as well, you kinda talk about the idea of purpose and, like, passion. And those are, like, difficult things to find that sort of intersection of the Venn diagram for.

   3. GBGrace Beverley7:39

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AAAli Abdaal7:40

      And I remember you saying something that, like, you found that your kind of passion, purpose wasn't in the influencer Gracefit UK life-

   5. GBGrace Beverley7:46

      Yeah

   6. AAAli Abdaal7:46

      ... it was more in the branding, marketing side.

   7. GBGrace Beverley7:48

      Yeah.

   8. AAAli Abdaal7:48

      And I was kinda thinking, but, like, if you... L- like, where, where, where does music come into this, if at all, amongst the sort of Grace Beverley entrepreneur, podcaster, author scene?

   9. GBGrace Beverley7:57

      So I don't think that I necessarily do many things for fun now that don't make me money.

   10. AAAli Abdaal8:02

       Hmm.

   11. GBGrace Beverley8:02

       And I feel like-

   12. AAAli Abdaal8:03

       Okay

   13. GBGrace Beverley8:03

       ... that's inherently problematic and not something I agree with. And I feel like music to me was always something that actually, I mean, it kind of made money from when I was-

   14. AAAli Abdaal8:15

       Yeah

   15. GBGrace Beverley8:15

       ... what? Like, nine.

   16. AAAli Abdaal8:15

       Yeah.

   17. GBGrace Beverley8:16

       But it was so part of my life and ne- it, it never made... It was never kind of, like, what was making me-

   18. AAAli Abdaal8:23

       Mm-hmm

   19. GBGrace Beverley8:23

       ... money, if that makes sense. And it never evolved into something that was my career in that way, and I think that's what maintains my love of it so much.

   20. AAAli Abdaal8:33

       Yeah.

   21. GBGrace Beverley8:33

       And I don't know if that's slightly strange, because obviously we do encourage, like... I, I dunno, I feel like, and I talk about this in the book too, I feel like we talk a lot about this idea of some big passion and big purpose that you... that almost if you're coming into the workforce and you don't have something like that, you feel in s- someway inferior. And I actually think that my big passion, which probably was music, I love more as being a big passion rather than being something, something to monetize. And the thing that I'm passionate about that I do monetize is all of the kind of, like, branding, marketing-

   22. AAAli Abdaal9:07

       Hmm

   23. GBGrace Beverley9:07

       ... that type of stuff. I guess they're, they're separate, and for some reason in my head that's always really made sense to me, and that's kept the joy of it. I also think I probably burnt out in it quite a lot for, you know, when I was younger-

   24. AAAli Abdaal9:19

       Yeah

   25. GBGrace Beverley9:19

       ... because I was doing so much of it, and then just thought, "This is probably not gonna be-

   26. AAAli Abdaal9:23

       Yes

   27. GBGrace Beverley9:23

       ... the rest of my life."

   28. AAAli Abdaal9:24

       No, absolutely. Definitely wanna put, put a bookmark on the burnout conversation. I've been doing a bunch of research into, for my book, in- into intrinsic, extrinsic motivation and stuff.

   29. GBGrace Beverley9:32

       Mm.

   30. AAAli Abdaal9:32

       And there seems to be a lot of scientific and anecdotal evidence from everyone that when you have something that's fun and you add money to it, even if you really enjoy the thing, there's some aspect of it of, like, now doing it for money, which sort of takes a little bit or a lot of the joy out of it. What's been your experience with that with the sort of entrepreneurship, podcasty? 'Cause as you said, like, every- everything you do is for money. I think it's kind of the same for me. Almost everything I do is monetized in some way or another.
4. 14:17 – 20:08

   Are side hustles toxic?

   1. AAAli Abdaal14:17

      The whole side hustle thing. So from when I was 17, and I read The 4-Hour Workweek, I was like, "All right, cool."

   2. GBGrace Beverley14:22

      Yeah, yeah.

   3. AAAli Abdaal14:22

      Side hustle's the way forward, passive income, blah, blah, blah. I spoke to a bunch of doctors who I knew, and I was like, "You know, how much do you really enjoy your job? If you won the lottery, would you, would you, would you still do medicine?" And half of them were like, "I would quit immediately." And the other half were like, "I'd go part-time." And I was like, "Why don't you go part-time?" And they were like, "Well, 'cause I, I need to pay the bills, mortgage, kids, kids," et cetera, et cetera. And so in my mind, I was like, "Cool. Cl- clearly the answer here is that, like, I wanna be able to do medicine for fun, and I wanna have enough streams of passive income on the side to be able to, be able to kind of clothe myself, feed myself, and buy a house, and do all those things," because it seems like medicine in the UK is not necessarily the path to that right now.

   4. GBGrace Beverley14:58

      Right, yeah.

   5. AAAli Abdaal14:59

      But then there's some... It's, it is somewhat unfashionable to suggest the whole side hustle thing these days. And given that you were... I g- I guess, I guess when I was at university, you were like one of the OG influencer, side hustler-type-

   6. GBGrace Beverley15:12

      Thanks

   7. AAAli Abdaal15:12

      ... people. And certainly in the book you kinda talk about that a little bit. How do you think about this balance between people should have side hu- oh, people could have side hustles if they want to make streams of income to become financially free, et cetera, et cetera, versus the kind of backlash to that of like, oh, but now you're telling people to work a second job in the evenings, and that's bad.

   8. GBGrace Beverley15:29

      Yeah. So I think that it's exactly that. It's not black and white.

   9. AAAli Abdaal15:32

      Mm.

   10. GBGrace Beverley15:32

       And I think that when we present it online as black and white, and actually if you're using any hours in the evening to relax rather than using those three hours to be building your own Shopify page and making-

   11. AAAli Abdaal15:41

       Yeah

   12. GBGrace Beverley15:41

       ... this much money, then you're, you know, you don't like time, you just like discipline. Like, all of these things. I think that it can both be true that you can make lots through that and create a great life for yourself through that, and that also be really [laughs] kind of this kind of toxic tie that I admit very much myself that I kind of have in my own, like, head between your productivity and your self-worth and your ability to monetize every single moment of your time. I think that I will be the first to say that side hustles will be, are an incredible way to m- make money outside of your main job. Or for me it was when I was a student or even before that I was babysitting every night or doing music tutoring. Like, all of these things, I kind of... When I got into making money, it was actually because I became obsessed with the fact that, you know, if I get 20 pounds a month from my parents, I can make 25 pounds a month, a, a night from babysitting. So I've already doubled my technical income for the month-

   13. AAAli Abdaal16:38

       Yeah

   14. GBGrace Beverley16:38

       ... and just got completely obsessed with that idea. And then when I worked at IBM, I was doing the kind of Instagram stuff on the side and selling stuff, and that kind of just snowballed. And so I can't sit here and say like, "Oh no, side hustle's really toxic." I think that it's marketed very toxically, and I think this, we do need to kind of question the idea that actually the amount of money we can make is capped only by our time.

   15. AAAli Abdaal17:02

       Hm.

   16. GBGrace Beverley17:03

       Or, yeah. And I also think that we can acknowledge that actually creating separate passive streams of income is a really important and really effective way to make more money. And I also think that now we're in an era where that, you know, privilege is more important to talk about than ever. But also at the same time, the online space is, has hugely democratized slart- starting a business in the way that the barriers to entry to starting a business are way, way, way lower.

   17. AAAli Abdaal17:32

       Yeah.

   18. GBGrace Beverley17:32

       And so it's kind of... I just think that as long as we talk about it with the nuance of the whole conversation-

   19. AAAli Abdaal17:37

       Yeah

   20. GBGrace Beverley17:37

       ... then great. I think when we sell it as this kind of like, "You're relaxing in the evening? Well, that's why you don't have a house and that's why you're not driving a Lamborghini," I think that's kind of... I mean, it just, it sells on Instagram, doesn't it?

   21. AAAli Abdaal17:48

       Yeah. No, absolutely. Like, there's always a middle way with this, with these sorts of things.

   22. GBGrace Beverley17:52

       Mm.

   23. AAAli Abdaal17:52

       You mentioned that your ability to monetize your free time is not really capped by time, uh, necessarily these days. What, like, what are the other factors do you think that kind of go into this? And I guess I'm asking because I often come at this, 'cause I teach a course teaching people how to be part-time YouTubers.

   24. GBGrace Beverley18:07

       Mm.

   25. AAAli Abdaal18:07

       And there's always this tension between wanting to be encouraging, that, hey, anyone can succeed on YouTube-

   26. GBGrace Beverley18:10

       Yeah, yeah, yeah

   27. AAAli Abdaal18:10

       ... because technically they can, but also this recognition that like I succeeded on YouTube because I had Cambridge Medical School like as my-

   28. GBGrace Beverley18:16

       Yeah, yeah, yeah

   29. AAAli Abdaal18:16

       ... brand, brand hashtag for like three freaking years, and there's loads of unfair advantages and privileges that p- that play into it. And at the same time, yes, theoretically someone in any position could succeed. And-

   30. GBGrace Beverley18:26

       Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't think I've ever cracked that.
5. 20:08 – 28:43

   Becomming an influencer

   1. AAAli Abdaal20:09

      Yeah. I'd love to talk a little bit about the, the sort of GracefitUK saga.

   2. GBGrace Beverley20:13

      Ah, yes.

   3. AAAli Abdaal20:13

      If you're open to talking about that. 'Cause yeah, you... But like at, at university everyone, like when I was at university, everyone knew who you were. And when I started on YouTube, they're like, "Oh, so you're trying to be like GracefitUK?" I was like, "No." [laughs] Because [laughs] I am a, a com- com- complete the opposite of kind of fit-

   4. GBGrace Beverley20:29

      Oof

   5. AAAli Abdaal20:29

      ... fitness influencer kind of vibes. What was it that made you decide to start? And like, I guess, what was the story of the, the original, the early days of, of your kind of influencer career? And then I'd love to talk about why that seems to have taken a pause and you deleted the channel and, and so like-

   6. GBGrace Beverley20:44

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

   7. AAAli Abdaal20:45

      ... the, the arc of, of GracefitUK.

   8. GBGrace Beverley20:47

      So let's sketch a timeline.

   9. AAAli Abdaal20:48

      Yep.

   10. GBGrace Beverley20:50

       February 22nd, 2015, my Instagram account starts.

   11. AAAli Abdaal20:54

       Okay.

   12. GBGrace Beverley20:54

       At this stage it's a jumble of letters is the name. I don't post my face.

   13. AAAli Abdaal20:59

       Yeah.

   14. GBGrace Beverley20:59

       I didn't post my face until I had 10,000 followers I think it was.

   15. AAAli Abdaal21:02

       Oh, how old were you at the time?

   16. GBGrace Beverley21:04

       Just turned 18.

   17. AAAli Abdaal21:04

       Okay, got it.

   18. GBGrace Beverley21:05

       And the whole concept of that was that I consistently tried to start a fitness journey and consistently failed.

   19. AAAli Abdaal21:12

       Okay.

   20. GBGrace Beverley21:12

       And so the whole idea was that, was that I would be tracking my journey online and just like, as you see now, accounts of people being like, "This is what I had for lunch today. This is how I went to the gym," like, "This is what I did at the gym." Like all of these various different things. So that was how the account started, and continued that way probably about, for about two years, a year and a half.

   21. AAAli Abdaal21:31

       Oh, okay. So it was just a purely a personal thing.

   22. GBGrace Beverley21:32

       Yeah.

   23. AAAli Abdaal21:33

       Okay.

   24. GBGrace Beverley21:33

       I, I actually changed my name to my name about seven months, eight months in, and started showing my face. It was a terribly kept secret at school. I got a lot of shit for that. [laughs]

   25. AAAli Abdaal21:42

       Oh, yeah. [laughs]

   26. GBGrace Beverley21:42

       Yeah, so I... That's when I started working at IBM. My first monetization of a- anything was that when in about November I believe it was, I was every single weekend when I was at IBM, I would, because I was posting content in the week, I would spend like the Saturday cooking up about 15 recipes, and I'd spend the Sunday filming a load of workout videos.

   27. AAAli Abdaal22:06

       Okay.

   28. GBGrace Beverley22:06

       Like that was... So I'd spend a huge amount of time creating content in the weekend, and then I'd post it throughout the week because that w- because I was going into work at what, like some stupid corporate hour, like 5:00 AM, and coming home after dark as well. In the winter in the UK it, it gets, you know, you can't take any content. That's kind of how I was doing it. And then so I realized that that kind of wasn't maintainable, so I turned some of those... I tu- I, the first product I ever made was a, a recipe PDF. So it was all of my recipes, so healthy versions of unhealthy recipes.

   29. AAAli Abdaal22:35

       Yeah.

   30. GBGrace Beverley22:35

       The ones that I'd kind of used, put them into two different PDFs, sold them £5 each on my Shopify store that I literally just built with a theme and made a logo on Canva.
6. 28:43 – 35:56

   Fear of posting

   1. AAAli Abdaal28:43

      of influencer culture is, like, way more of a thing than it was six, seven years ago-

   2. GBGrace Beverley28:48

      Yeah

   3. AAAli Abdaal28:49

      ... it would still be weird for someone in sixth form to be like, "You know what? I'm gonna start posting work- workout videos."

   4. GBGrace Beverley28:54

      Yeah.

   5. AAAli Abdaal28:54

      And they'd be like, or like one of my friend... Like, it's, it's weird enough for someone to make videos on YouTube teaching educational topics.

   6. GBGrace Beverley29:00

      Yeah, yeah.

   7. AAAli Abdaal29:01

      And yet posting-

   8. GBGrace Beverley29:01

      I had no purpose.

   9. AAAli Abdaal29:02

      Yeah. [laughs] So-

   10. GBGrace Beverley29:03

       There was... I was a- adding value to no one.

   11. AAAli Abdaal29:05

       Okay. But, like, how did you get over the fear, I guess?

   12. GBGrace Beverley29:08

       Um-

   13. AAAli Abdaal29:08

       'Cause it seems to be a thing that holds a lot of people back from, I guess, putting themselves out there.

   14. GBGrace Beverley29:12

       So probably worth noting that I had about a year of, on Instagram before I started on the YouTube.

   15. AAAli Abdaal29:17

       Yeah. That's what I... Yeah.

   16. GBGrace Beverley29:17

       So that was kind of like-

   17. AAAli Abdaal29:18

       Like with the Instagram stuff.

   18. GBGrace Beverley29:19

       Well, so even that, that wasn't... It was, I was basically using it as a diary.

   19. AAAli Abdaal29:24

       Okay.

   20. GBGrace Beverley29:24

       It was like I'm do- I've done this workout today. The, this is what I'm eating today. I went shopping today.

   21. AAAli Abdaal29:30

       Okay.

   22. GBGrace Beverley29:30

       Like, it was like a diary, so it wasn't necessarily... It was weird. Like, it l- it was definitely weird, and I got a lot of shit from it at school.

   23. AAAli Abdaal29:38

       Yeah. Like how did-

   24. GBGrace Beverley29:39

       Um-

   25. AAAli Abdaal29:39

       How did people at school react?

   26. GBGrace Beverley29:40

       D- not very well. [laughs] Not very well. I, yeah, I d- I, I mean, not necessarily to my face. I heard a lot about it. We laugh about it now.

   27. AAAli Abdaal29:50

       Okay. [laughs]

   28. GBGrace Beverley29:50

       It's a strange thing to do. And yeah, that's kind of how it start... But then I had like, I was kind of eased into it with that year of Instagram, and then YouTube was just not really even vlogs.

   29. AAAli Abdaal30:00

       Yeah.

   30. GBGrace Beverley30:00

       I would say two words and then move on to the next thing. And then by that stage, I probably had enough external validation from what I was doing-
7. 35:56 – 44:30

   The multiplier effect of making money

   1. AAAli Abdaal35:56

      you're... At th- at this point of the journey, you've started the YouTube channel. You're making... Like, I... How, how... What sort of ballpark of money were you making from those PDFs at the time beyond kinda day one, if you're open to sharing?

   2. GBGrace Beverley36:07

      Well, actually, to be fair, the reason I ever shared in the beginning-

   3. AAAli Abdaal36:10

      Yeah

   4. GBGrace Beverley36:10

      ... was because people would look at my house and be like, "Ah, must be nice having rich parents."

   5. AAAli Abdaal36:15

      Yeah.

   6. GBGrace Beverley36:16

      My... Like, I come from a very privileged background and have been open about that. But also at the same time, when I've publicly sold hundreds of thousands of PDFs for £35, like, do the maths. You know?

   7. AAAli Abdaal36:26

      Yes. [laughs]

   8. GBGrace Beverley36:26

      Like, as in, like, I was kind of just like- Like, you have a calculator for free on your phone.

   9. AAAli Abdaal36:32

      Yeah.

   10. GBGrace Beverley36:32

       It's re- like, it's not that hard to... Like, I will be the first to say that all of these other things helped me.

   11. AAAli Abdaal36:38

       Yeah.

   12. GBGrace Beverley36:38

       And being, like, white and, like, pretty privilege and all of the... Like, slim and able-bodied and all of these things, of course they're gonna help. And of course, like, my background as well will hugely help, and I will be the first to say that. But when you also add up literally what happened from when I wrote something, paid my friend 50 quid to put it into a PDF, built a Shopify site and put it on sale, you can also do that maths.

   13. AAAli Abdaal36:59

       Yeah.

   14. GBGrace Beverley36:59

       So ballpark figure, I think that we sold in total around 300,000. Uh, 300 to 350,000 of those PDFs.

   15. AAAli Abdaal37:14

       Bloody hell.

   16. GBGrace Beverley37:15

       Yes.

   17. AAAli Abdaal37:15

       Incredible. [laughs]

   18. GBGrace Beverley37:16

       So that was where the... That always has been where the, like, bulk of my income came from.

   19. AAAli Abdaal37:20

       Yeah.

   20. GBGrace Beverley37:20

       And then I invested that money into the businesses that I then started.

   21. AAAli Abdaal37:26

       Damn. Just a quick break from the podcast to introduce our sponsor, which is very excitingly Shortform. Now, Shortform is the single best service that summarizes books that I have ever used. I've used them all, and Shortform is by far the best one because it's not just a book summary service. What they have is that they have summaries of books where they have, like, a one-pager and then they have, like, a detailed chapter-by-chapter outline. But it's great because in particular if the author, like let's say Simon Sinek, Start with Why, they've got a six short from summary of that book, which is what I read when I was revisiting the ideas from the book, so it's great for that. Um, but if there's an idea that the author says which another author or another source disagrees with, they put a little Shortform note. And so they say, "Hey, this idea that Simon Sinek talks about is controversial because of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And it just helps you get a way more holistic understanding of what's actually going on with the book that you're reading so that you don't necessarily take the author's opinion at face value. For me personally, I use Shortform firstly if I'm thinking of reading a book but I don't want... I don't necessarily wanna read the whole book in its entirety in the first instance. I will often read the Shortform summary if they have it, and they usually do, and if I vibe with the summary then I think, "Okay, now it's worth reading the actual book." Or alternatively, if I've read a book in the past or whatever and I wanna revisit the ideas from that, firstly I look at my Kindle highlights and then I look at the Shortform summary and it really helps when I'm creating content around, like, book summaries and stuff on my website, for my YouTube channel. So Shortform is great. If you wanna check it out, then head over to shortform.com/deepdive or hit the link in the video description and that will give you 20% off the annual premium subscription. So thank you so much Shortform for sponsoring this episode. What was the best thing and what was the worst thing about suddenly making stupid amounts of money while you're at uni?

   22. GBGrace Beverley38:53

       Best thing was that I suddenly had a lot of freedom. I did not obviously worry about money at all. I was able to do amazing things with my friends. Just like these fun things. I, I... It's not like I was... Like, I've never been on a private jet.

   23. AAAli Abdaal39:14

       Mm.

   24. GBGrace Beverley39:14

       I've never... You know, like all of the... It's not like I was renting yachts and stuff.

   25. AAAli Abdaal39:17

       Sure.

   26. GBGrace Beverley39:17

       That freedom 100% one of the biggest benefits. I was able to, like, rent a flat in the holidays rather than moving home because where I was at home it wasn't an environment that I could, like, film in and all of these, all of these various different things. S- but I wouldn't... Yeah, that was kind of like the parameters, but at, at the same time I was still at uni, I was still doing the same things. It couldn't buy me good grades, you know, all of that. So I think that really f- for the three years that I, first three years that I was earning that I really... I was also the same as, uh... Other than the huge [laughs] amount-

   27. AAAli Abdaal39:48

       Yeah

   28. GBGrace Beverley39:48

       ... of money I was making. I was also kind of th- still doing the same things.

   29. AAAli Abdaal39:52

       Yeah, it's the same life as everyone else really.

   30. GBGrace Beverley39:53

       Um, yeah, it w-
8. 44:30 – 51:21

   Building long-term income

   1. GBGrace Beverley44:30

      conscious of that.

   2. AAAli Abdaal44:31

      It's interesting that, like, well, like, what your timeline was for this because... And I'm not sure how sort of plugged in you are to the sort of creator economy these days, but the conversations that I have with anyone sort of from 500K to, like, 10 million subscribers-

   3. GBGrace Beverley44:44

      Mm

   4. AAAli Abdaal44:44

      ... is this level of like, "Okay, cool. I'm succeeding as an individual, but I need to figure out how to diversify and try and build a business and a brand-

   5. GBGrace Beverley44:50

      Mm

   6. AAAli Abdaal44:50

      ... that's separate from me so that it doesn't rely on me showing up," being like, "What's up, guys?" every single day to the camera.

   7. GBGrace Beverley44:55

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

   8. AAAli Abdaal44:55

      'Cause that is an unsustainable way of living.

   9. GBGrace Beverley44:57

      Yeah. Of course.

   10. AAAli Abdaal44:58

       And, and, and in a way, it's like the... I, I think the arc is people start off with a job or being students where they basically have very little autonomy-

   11. GBGrace Beverley45:05

       Mm-hmm

   12. AAAli Abdaal45:05

       ... to then becoming creators where they're like, "Ooh, autonomy." But then you become a creator and you're like, "Oh, actually, I am kind of a slave to the algorithm. I have to ke- keep a, a slave to consistency." In a way, a slave to the audience, some might say. And therefore, then the, kind of the golden end bit is the thing that you did ages ago before it was cool-

   13. GBGrace Beverley45:19

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

   14. AAAli Abdaal45:20

       ... which is set up separate businesses which can then theoretically run without you, hire a team, and build those brands as their own thing. So I... Like, were there examples of people doing that? Or did you just kind of know that, okay, this, this is obviously the next step?

   15. GBGrace Beverley45:33

       I think I knew about a year into making... No, probably a year and a half to two years into making quite a lot of money. I think I knew that I [laughs] loved making the money, like, completely transparent. Of course I did. But it wasn't... With each marginal breakthrough in how much money I was making, it wasn't bringing me marginal happiness. In fact, I think it was a career that was entirely incompatible with my personality in some ways, or, like, the reward systems, like, in my head.

   16. AAAli Abdaal46:10

       Yeah.

   17. GBGrace Beverley46:10

       So although it was a career that was compatible in terms of my personality in the way that, you know, thankfully people seem to like my content, I... It was incompatible in the way that, as I've said, like, I'm a people pleaser. I don't want to have to care about what people think in order to make my money, and I think that was one of the really big things. And also, I have other passions, and this... Like, what I loved doing was the, like, really assessing the algorithm, strategically working out what types of content I should be doing, looking at what types of... You know, every time I'd work on a brand with a brand deal, I'd be like, "You should really make this." I was like, "People would absolutely love this." And I'd be trying to go above and beyond. Say, like, I was working with, say, now I'm... Obviously, I have an activewear company. Um, so I was working in, with an activewear company at the time. It'd be like, "You should really make these leggings 'cause, like, these ones just, like, fall down in this way, and, like, people really want it to be like this and feel like this. And you should try this type of marketing instead because, like, actually people in my audience, people who are my age really want to see, you know, more body types or more d- like, diverse models or, it, you know, any of these things." And I'd really be trying to kind of, like, backseat drive in that way, and that wasn't my role. My role was sitting there and, like, wearing the stuff and looking nice-

   18. AAAli Abdaal47:23

       Yeah

   19. GBGrace Beverley47:23

       ... and all of that. And I was like, "This doesn't bring me fulfillment on a daily basis." What does br- bring me fulfillment is, you know, doing the strategy and it working. But that, like, working on it was probably the happiest I felt versus, like, you know, I was doing really well and it wasn't necessarily that that was making me any happier. And so I think I noticed probably luckily quite early on because I think what I'm, we're seeing at the moment is this kind of like second phase of, like, creator economy where we're seeing people... We're seeing the ends of lots of people's careers, and we're seeing them pivot at that stage to creating a business. But actually, ultimately, you need more influence to have a business and to sell things than you do to do brand deals.

   20. AAAli Abdaal48:00

       Yeah.

   21. GBGrace Beverley48:01

       Like, you d- because you've got to put cash down, you've got to have staff, you've got to... Like, all of these things, you actually need more sway. And so it... I don't think it hugely works as an end of career thing unless you're starting it with some real business acumen that you're not using yourself as the marketing budget and you're going to do that all separately 'cause obviously anyone can start up a business. But I think that because... And because I had the freedom to do so because it wasn't the Well, I was making an obscene amount... I was kind of making an obscene amount of money and I didn't need to... You know, there was... I could, I could slow down at paces and it wouldn't slow down and all of that. And I just kind of realized that the most joy I ever got was talking to the bra- either, like, strongly collaborating with things in terms of their actual product, like, their actual marketing-

   22. AAAli Abdaal48:44

       Mm

   23. GBGrace Beverley48:44

       ... like, the strategy in terms of, like, my types of audience, exactly how to reach them, exactly what they care about, like, all of these things. That was what I enjoyed. And doing that for my first business, Shreddy, which was, uh, what? Started five and a half years ago now, and then setting up my second business, TALA, which was set up, it would've been, like, four and a half years ago now, but actually launched three and a half years ago, was, like, that was where I got, like, joy.

   24. AAAli Abdaal49:08

       Yeah.

   25. GBGrace Beverley49:08

       And now I'm sitting in an office five days a week making far less [laughs] money than I ever made before, because, as in, you know, because it's all for the long term.

   26. AAAli Abdaal49:18

       Yeah.

   27. GBGrace Beverley49:18

       Like, it's all in the businesses. It's all to hopefully, you know, create-

   28. AAAli Abdaal49:21

       Mm

   29. GBGrace Beverley49:21

       ... something amazing. Uh, and that makes me a lot less-

   30. AAAli Abdaal49:25

       Yep
9. 51:21 – 1:00:00

   Pivoting from being an influencer

   1. AAAli Abdaal51:21

      What was it that changed? And, like, what was the sort of the winding down of the influencer brand?

   2. GBGrace Beverley51:27

      So I think it all... I, I knew I'd wanted to do it for a while. Just, again, exact same thing. I knew I wanted to move more towards creating brands and working on, like, the, the back-end side rather than the creating content. I also think that... I, I think it's... I mean, I didn't know that this was gonna happen, but I think th- in part that what's been amazing for me as part of this is, like, the creator economy now is focused on amazing content, and I never made amazing content. Like, I never made content that was really high-end or that was really succinct or that was any of... Like, I would spend a lot of time on why I was... And I did that for a reason. I d- you know, I don't think my audience wanted polished content. But actually now on the algorithms, like, God knows how I would've fared. And I think that, you know, I, I'd got to that stage and I'd also started moving. I'd started setting up TALA kind of behind the scenes, and that was what I w- I was so, and still am, so, so, so passionate about that because to me that was what the industry needed, and I'd worked in this fitness activewear industry for a few years at that point, and that was, like, what was needed. And so I was so excited about that because the, like, concept, even if I was studying it completely unrelated to myself as an influencer or any of those things, was so exciting. And I think I just got so much more excited by that, that I was like, "Huh, maybe it's time to, like, say, you know, this has been amazing-

   3. AAAli Abdaal52:51

      Yeah

   4. GBGrace Beverley52:51

      ... and kind of, you know, cut myself off from that income in a way-

   5. AAAli Abdaal52:55

      Yeah

   6. GBGrace Beverley52:55

      ... and just pivot into something else." I was also coming up to... When I launched TALA, it was the month before my finals. I was... I'd already said at that stage, like, "Guys, just FYI, I'm not gonna be creating as much content. I'm doing my finals." I did a bit of content. I still did probably, like, one YouTube video a week, which is insane. But usually I'd been doing three a week, and then I just never really went back. I never really went back. I moved back to... I moved to London, and I was so in love with growing TALA and Shreddy that I was just like... N- no one expects anyone to make their full career choice and stick to it at 18, which is when I made mine. No one would be surprised if someone worked towards something throughout their time at uni and worked to something else from when they graduated.

   7. AAAli Abdaal53:42

      Mm.

   8. GBGrace Beverley53:43

      That's literally exactly what I did. It just happened that mine was relatively more high profile. Obviously, that comes with a pivot that, you know, obviously some people aren't gonna understand. But ultimately, at the end of the day, I think I really prioritized that for a long time because of online opinion and also because of how much money it was making me.

   9. AAAli Abdaal54:00

      Mm.

   10. GBGrace Beverley54:01

       And got to a point where I was like, "Well, [laughs] is the end goal money, or is the end goal happiness and fulfillment?" And ultimately, ideally, I'd have both. [laughs] But ultimately, if you're getting... If you're in that point of privilege that you're getting more money, that you'd assume would lead to more happiness rather than just getting a roof over your head, then if that is not getting you happiness, then, then pivoted, pivoting seemed the right thing to do. So I kind of did it quite abruptly. And- Never really went back. I mean, I tried to put so- I tried to do some consistent things that put out good content that are almost to thank the l- really loyal people who've stuck around and watched my journey and supported my journey for a long time. I assume that most of my following is actually from back then.

   11. AAAli Abdaal54:49

       Mm-hmm.

   12. GBGrace Beverley54:49

       And actually, the large majority of people I meet now are like, "Oh, I didn't know you did YouTube."

   13. AAAli Abdaal54:53

       Yeah.

   14. GBGrace Beverley54:53

       And I'm like, "Really?" [laughs]

   15. AAAli Abdaal54:54

       Yeah.

   16. GBGrace Beverley54:54

       So I think it's more just, like, crossed over in the past three and a half years really, or three years probably since I've created a lot of content. That following has just, like, lots of people will have left and lots of people will have joined. Lots of people from the fitness side and uni side would have left, and lots of people from the, like, business and work and, like, all of that will have joined. And so it's been quite a nice pivot.

   17. AAAli Abdaal55:16

       Hey, friends. Hope you're enjoying the podcast so far. Uh, just interrupting the podcast episode to give you a little message from our sponsor, which happens to be Shopify. Shopify is freaking incredible. It is the world's best all-in-one platform for managing any kind of e-commerce store, and it's just fantastic for anyone who wants to start and grow and manage an online business. Shopify is great because it lets you sell in person and also online, and also across all the major social platforms. And actually, we've been personally using Shopify for over a year to sell our merch line, the Part-Time Productivity line of Essentially, which is the stationery brand that I've kind of built up over the last year. And Shopify is amazing in integrating with, like, basically every service provider we could want, and really taking all of the hassle out of managing logistics and customer support and accepting online payments and all of that stuff. Very excitingly, Shopify has just partnered with YouTube, so now you can connect your Shopify store to your YouTube channel. And so what we are in the process of doing is connecting our Shopify store on shop.aliabdaal.com, uh, over to the YouTube channel so that people will be able to buy products directly from the YouTube channel for Ali Abdaal and for the Ali Abdaal Vlogs channel and for the Deep Dive podcast YouTube channel. That's gonna be sick, and we're super excited about that. If any of that sounds good and you also wanna start or grow or manage your online business with Shopify, then head over to shopify.com/aliabdaal, and that link will take you to a page that has all the information you need to know about Shopify and how you can use it to potentially start and grow your own online business. So thank you so much, Shopify, for sponsoring this episode. It's not unusual for people to make career changes.

   18. GBGrace Beverley56:33

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AAAli Abdaal56:34

       You know, I went out of medicine and-

   20. GBGrace Beverley56:35

       Yeah

   21. AAAli Abdaal56:35

       ... to become a, a, a YouTuber. But if I was making 10 times as much money during med- doing medicine as I would've-

   22. GBGrace Beverley56:40

       Mm-hmm

   23. AAAli Abdaal56:40

       ... done through YouTube, that, at that point, people stop would, uh... And, and, and especially to the, like, externally it sort of looks like, "My God, you're living the dream. You can literally post-"

   24. GBGrace Beverley56:50

       Yeah

   25. AAAli Abdaal56:50

       ... "whatever you want. You're making a stupid amount of money." Like-

   26. GBGrace Beverley56:52

       But-

   27. AAAli Abdaal56:52

       ... why would you w- w- want to take a hit on all those fronts, basically?

   28. GBGrace Beverley56:56

       So you can post whatever you want, yes.

   29. AAAli Abdaal56:58

       Mm-hmm.

   30. GBGrace Beverley56:58

       But if you don't want to post, no.
10. 1:00:00 – 1:18:08

    Optimising business potential

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:00:00

       I definitely wanna dig into the logistics of running a, a physical goods business.

    2. GBGrace Beverley1:00:05

       Yes.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:00:05

       But, like, I wonder if we can start with Shreddy.

    4. GBGrace Beverley1:00:08

       Yes.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:00:08

       What was the kinda origin story for Shreddy, and why not just keep selling PDFs? Yeah.

    6. GBGrace Beverley1:00:14

       So why not keep selling PDFs? We continued selling PDFs for a good bit of time after we pivoted to an app and pivoted to physical products. So timeline was PDFs, nine months later, first physic- physical products, a year and a half later, app

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:00:33

       Okay

    8. GBGrace Beverley1:00:33

       So, uh, th- and the PDFs only went a few months after the app was launched.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:00:41

       Right

    10. GBGrace Beverley1:00:41

        So they're still, like, keeping security. It's not good to jump ship all the time.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:00:44

        Mm.

    12. GBGrace Beverley1:00:44

        But I think what's really, really, really important is evolution, and I think that what's very, very true is the industry and things like PDFs aren't, you know, the industry's moved on.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:00:55

        Mm.

    14. GBGrace Beverley1:00:56

        Like, in the s- it doesn't work as a business model in the way that people can AirDrop them now. They can screenshot them and send them, like, all of these things. Whereas with an app, you're getting a service. Um, and so it's a subscription service, and a subscription business model as well is a lot easier to run. So the pivot for that was slow. I think that people think with businesses, you know, they'll be the way th- you come up with some big concept and it works. The concept, you know, came about after the business even existed and grew based on-

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:01:26

        Sorry, the concept came about after the business existed?

    16. GBGrace Beverley1:01:27

        Well, because the business started as p- these PDFs, so like just-

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:01:31

        Oh, got it. Yeah

    18. GBGrace Beverley1:01:31

        ... workout guides, essentially-

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:01:33

        Yeah

    20. GBGrace Beverley1:01:33

        ... that people would all do together. I guess that's the loose concept, but it's not like a big, you know, find your why-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:01:38

        Mm

    22. GBGrace Beverley1:01:38

        ... type golden circle idea that's-

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:01:40

        Yeah

    24. GBGrace Beverley1:01:40

        ... like, gonna change the world, right? It's talking to these, the same audience you're gonna go for. It's essentially a minimum viable product. It helps you learn a lot of things. Um, we tried, we've tried products that don't work. We've tried, you know... And it, all it, all it's about is trying things and doing more of what does work and less of what doesn't work.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:01:58

        Yeah.

    26. GBGrace Beverley1:01:58

        But so the concept then came about that was the, when people would talk about the guides, the PDF guides, they'd say like, "Ugh, I just love this because I've never trained this way, and I-

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:02:12

        Mm

    28. GBGrace Beverley1:02:12

        ... thought that I had to hate working out."

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:02:14

        Okay.

    30. GBGrace Beverley1:02:15

        "And I really like this." And it was, you know, it was probably the beginning of the time that lifting was even, lifting weights was even kind of con- encour- started to be encouraged for women. It was right at the beginning of that. And so it was lifting weights, but it was in quite a high intensity way. So women who were used to wanting to sweat during their workouts quite a lot were doing that through lifting.
11. 1:18:08 – 1:35:32

    Sustainable fashion

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:18:08

       So you're in your third year of uni. You're dealing with all this faff of trying to start an activewear brand-

    2. GBGrace Beverley1:18:13

       Mm-hmm

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:18:13

       ... while also doing the influency stuff on the side.

    4. GBGrace Beverley1:18:16

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:18:16

       A, how did you manage your time? That classic question. And B, why did you not, like, what made you just not give up with the whole faff of, you know, "Oh, screw it, I'll just sell PDFs and continue to make millions"? [laughs]

    6. GBGrace Beverley1:18:28

       So I was continuing to sell PDFs-

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:18:29

       Yeah. [laughs]

    8. GBGrace Beverley1:18:29

       ... still at this stage. But I would think, I was really look- I was like, there's a maximum amount of time more that I'm gonna really wanna be doing what I'm doing now.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:18:35

       Okay. So you-

    10. GBGrace Beverley1:18:36

        So it was an investment in my future.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:18:37

        Got it.

    12. GBGrace Beverley1:18:37

        It was respecting kind of, like, my future self and my... I could have stayed in that. I could have still been doing that now and there would've been a lot of merit in it, and I'm sure I would've made a lot of money and, like, all of that, but it wasn't what I wanted to do. So all of this was, like, this long-term, in the same way as you, like, you'll make a f- Maybe like a five-year plan now and be like, "By the time I'm 27, I wanna live by myself," or like, "I wanna..." You know, like all of these are various different things. So that was kind of like part of my plan. The reason [laughs] I started this, even had the original idea for TALA, was that I'd been working with activewear companies for years at this point. And as I said before, there would be some really clear things that I'd be like, "This is... We should really do this. Like, trust me, people will love this." Mm. And obviously, it doesn't w- it doesn't work that way. I was the influencer. I was there to be, you know, to look nice and try things on and make content entertaining. And I had personally moved away from, you know, back in the day, I very embarrassingly did like PLT hauls. I did like lots of stuff with fast fashion. It was- Right. Why is that embarrassing? Because PLT's- Or- Like PrettyLittleThing. Yeah Like their ethics are trash. Oh. Like as in- Are they? Oh, yes. Like- I saw some of that in the Mollymauk scandal- Oh, yeah, yeah. But, but like- ... stuff that PLT's a bad company. I'd, I'd never heard of them before. [laughs] That's kind of cool. But fast fashion in general. Yeah. Like their, their ethics are awful, like the amount they're paying their suppliers, the amount... You know, just like all of it. It's, it's killing everything. Anyway, that was like, you know, back when I was doing that. That was how I made a lot of my money. I was, you know, promoting a lot of fast fashion. I think, you know, from affiliate links I'd be making tens of thousands a month and from literally just linking my outfits and like all of these things. And I decided to... I, I cut my... I remember I cut my, one of my big fast fashion contracts and was like, "I actually... It, it just doesn't work in my head. It's... I, I don't, I don't want to be doing this anymore." Mm-hmm. And I'd moved away kind of mostly, and I still wouldn't say that I've fully moved away in terms of like doing exactly what's in line with what I... You know, you know, that kind of cognitive dissonance- Yeah ... of being like, "Oh, I really shouldn't buy this, but like, eh." Yeah. You know, I wouldn't say I'm perfect in any way, but I generally moved away from shopping fast fashion for sure, and just to more things that I... were kind of more transparent. And I realized about six months after doing that and cutting all my fast fashion contracts and any fast fashion brand deals that I had just completely left activewear out of that. Because it was fitness and you kind of see it as necessary, like you can't work out in your jeans. Mm. So you're like, "Well, I need some leggings," and it needs to have certain performance qualities and all of these things. And so I'd actually just like not looked at it in the same way. And then so I started, while still partnered with, you know, with activewear companies and all of this, I started like googling sustainable activewear companies. There literally was nothing in the UK, first of all. But if you think of sustainable fashion as a whole, it's rental, pre-owned, sustainable fabrics. That's like- Okay ... I'd say the three ways that... And, and small business, I'd say of the probably the four ways you get s- more sustainable fashion. I think sustainable fashion is an oxymoron, but more sustainable. Um- Sorry, why is sustainable fashion an oxymoron? [laughs] Because fashion as a whole is one of the most polluting industries in the world. Okay. And, you know, we're not talking about people who are putting clothes on their back. We're talking about hauls of tens of y- pieces that you d- we don't need. We have a huge consumerism problem in terms of like how much fashion we consume. So fashion as a whole based on trends- Mm ... is always gonna be slightly oxymoronic in the fact that actually you can... I believe that we can do it more sustainably and we can do it better with the fabrics we choose, our entire production process, the factories we partner with, like all of these different things. But I don't think you can have fully sustainable fashion. Okay. And I think that's very important to acknowledge. But I... Those are like the four pillars- Yeah ... of sustainable fashion. But like rental and pre-owned you don't really wanna do with activewear, because you don't wanna rent someone's sweaty activewear. You don't really want to... There is pre, a pre-owned market for activewear. But like personally, I don't think it's a f- full alternative. If people are happy with it, great, do it. But it... I would happily buy a pre-owned bag or some trainers or some, a blazer or whatever, but I wouldn't happily have a pre-owned sports bra. Um, and then sustainable fabrics and small business. So there weren't... I'd say in general, there aren't as many small businesses within the activewear space. It's not like kind of like homeware or any of these things. Yeah. There still are, are there, but in terms of like the bigger activewear industry, sustainable fabrics. So looking at businesses that were doing sustainable fabrics and activewear, first of all, there was almost nothing in the UK, and genuinely there is still so little. There are people who use sustainable fabrics, but they don't talk about the rest of their production process, their packaging, their dyeing processes, their sampling processes, all of these things that actually come into sustainability that's not just using recycled fabric. Otherwise, Boohoo using a recycled fabric would be fine or like s- considered sustainable. I looked into those and I remember because my, the way I made money, or one of the ways I made money, was partnering with brands- Yeah ... I was looking for sustainable activewear brands that I could partner with. And when I looked them up, I was like, "Oh, I can't partner with these guys." The ones who've done amazing things, and we were by no means the first, and they've done incredible things, were like 100 pounds for a pair of leggings, which I had a student audience. I would never partner with brands where the, you know, RRP of, you know, and things were that expensive. It wouldn't work for me. I don't think it would convert for my audience. That's not who I was speaking to. So I remember thinking like, "Oh sh- like I can't partner with those people." So there was either double the price- Yeah ... sustainable activewear or non-sustainably made activewear that was at an, a price point that my audience would like. And then I was like, "Well, why isn't there a middle ground?" Like, why is there not sustainable activewear at a price point that's competitive to this? Is it because it can't be done? Is it because people think because some people will pay double for sustainability because it's, you know, people expect it. They expect to have to pay more. They expect to, you know, take that cost somewhere. Is it because there's not enough interest? Like all of these various different things. It seemed insane though that the generation that cared so much about sustainability and, you know, conscious production, all of these things, were also... Say if there's like sustainability and like conscious shopping, there's activewear. Yep. The thing that joins these two together, the people who care most about both of these categories Are millennial Gen Z-

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:25:03

        Yeah

    14. GBGrace Beverley1:25:03

        ... I'd say.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:25:04

        Yeah.

    16. GBGrace Beverley1:25:04

        Like, they were the ones who pioneered active wear as like a thing that you wear outside of the gym. Like, they were the ones who really cared about sustainability, all of these things. It was like a sweet spot in the middle-

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:25:13

        Yeah

    18. GBGrace Beverley1:25:13

        ... but no one was doing it. And still no one is really creating sustainable. I would love to find more brands doing sustainable active wear at a price point that's competitive.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:25:22

        Mm.

    20. GBGrace Beverley1:25:22

        And so that was the whole concept, and I got obsessed with the idea that this would be possible, especially because I had money to put into it, and I also had an audience that I could... If I would persuade a factory to make me something for a certain amount-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:25:35

        Yeah

    22. GBGrace Beverley1:25:35

        ... and be like, "I will... We will get this much money from it," because I know it will... I know people want this.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:25:41

        Yeah.

    24. GBGrace Beverley1:25:41

        Like, I really know people want this. So kind of took the two and a half years probably that I'd had working with active wear brands, being really clear with exactly what product people liked, why they liked them, all of that. So entirely, like, casual expertise. It wasn't, you know, traditional training at all. And then a passion for probably, like, selfishly wanting to have, be able to have active wear and promote active wear, which was so inherent to my brand, but wanting to do that a- at a point that was both accessible-

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:26:07

        Yeah

    26. GBGrace Beverley1:26:08

        ... and made better.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:26:09

        So it sounds like for this you had that, you know, the whole start with why thing.

    28. GBGrace Beverley1:26:12

        Mm-hmm.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:26:12

        There was a purpose behind this that you genuinely cared about-

    30. GBGrace Beverley1:26:14

        Big old why, yeah
12. 1:35:32 – 1:46:22

    Working hard, Hardly working

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:35:32

       about some book stuff. Working Hard, Hardly Working. Uh, there's a few, a few things in here which I found super interesting that I'd love to get your take on. And the, the first one was kind of very early on in, in a, in a way. When a, when I saw the title, my editor at Penguin actually sent me an advance copy of it. I th- I think I did a thing for it or something, and I kind of... I saw, I saw the title. I, I thought it was gonna be like a, oh, here's how you can work hard while also being chill about the thing.

    2. GBGrace Beverley1:35:55

       Oh, like a four-hour work week.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:35:56

       Yeah, that kind of vibe. And then I, I, I read the book. I was, oh, okay, it's like this contrast but also not this contrast between productivity and self-care kind of. So I would love to hear your take on, on that. I know you've kind of lit- really written a whole book about it, but-

    4. GBGrace Beverley1:36:10

       Yeah, we do. [laughs]

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:36:10

       What are your- [laughs]

    6. GBGrace Beverley1:36:12

       No

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:36:12

       ... what are your current thoughts on productivity versus self-care and that theoretical dividing line between the two?

    8. GBGrace Beverley1:36:18

       So I began to write the book right at the beginning of the pandemic because there was kind of a stage where there were these two big different kind of parties online.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:36:28

       Yeah.

    10. GBGrace Beverley1:36:28

        One was, like, team productivity-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:36:30

        Mm

    12. GBGrace Beverley1:36:30

        ... and one was, like, team self-care.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:36:32

        Yeah.

    14. GBGrace Beverley1:36:33

        And the pro- team productivity one was, like, hustle 24 hours, like sleep when you're dead. Like, all of these things, like big lions in the background of, like, a big graphic being like, yeah, that kind of like sleep while you're dead-

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:36:46

        Yeah

    16. GBGrace Beverley1:36:46

        ... all of those types of things. And, and it was just like hustle, hustle, hustle, like s- side hustle culture, like forex traders.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:36:52

        Yeah. [laughs]

    18. GBGrace Beverley1:36:52

        Like, you can make all of this money. But also like a more subtle version of that, which was like very like girl boss culture. Like, a lot of this stuff, which I will have benefited huge from, hugely from. And then there was this other side which was like- ... self-care, and that was like, "No. Like, do what you need to do. Cancel that job that you've got for your wellbeing. Like, quit your job. Go into something you love. Like, take a bath, put on a candle. Like, wellbeing." And then it was like there was, like, nothing in between. So like if I'd post something being like, "Oh, one of my big productivity tips is X"-

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:37:25

        Mm

    20. GBGrace Beverley1:37:25

        ... I'd get like an influx of like, "It's a, like, pandemic. Not a productivity contest"

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:37:30

        [laughs]

    22. GBGrace Beverley1:37:30

        ... and like, "How dare you say I should watch a Ted Talk at lunch? Like, I should be out in the park." And it's like, yeah, great, like, if that works for you. At the same time, I'd post something being like, "I decided not to work late today and to do this instead," and, like, the productivity people would be like, "Well, like, you can do that because of X, Y, and Z-

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:37:48

        Yeah

    24. GBGrace Beverley1:37:48

        ... and actually we all need to do this," and, like, all of that. And there was, like, there's no, like, middle ground, and actually there was this no acknowledgement of the fact that actually we all need productivity and we all need self-care. And that was the kind of like working hard, hardly working thing. The book's split into working hard, which is filled with productivity tips, a lot of talk about the, you know, generational kind of like passion paradoxes and, like, all of these things, managing your time, defining success, goal setting, like, all of these things. A lot very much, like, within this kind of like social media world. And then the, the hardly working side is, is kind of essentially the complete opposite. But the whole idea is to create a productivity blueprint that doesn't completely negate the idea that we actually need rest or relaxation or sleep. And I think that a lot of productivity books and a lot of books that have done really well in the kind of like self-help but business-y, work-y, improve your life way are types of books that you can, like, stick to for... You get really inspired by and stick to for about two weeks after, and then you're like, you completely burn out because it's not sustainable-

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:38:56

        Mm

    26. GBGrace Beverley1:38:56

        ... because it's not based on the fact that actually we're all human as well. And then on the opposite side, there's like all of these wellbeing books that are like, "Do this and do this-

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:39:04

        Yeah

    28. GBGrace Beverley1:39:04

        ... and do this," and then after two weeks you're like, "Well, now I've lost my job."

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:39:07

        [laughs]

    30. GBGrace Beverley1:39:08

        So it's like there was, there was none of this middle ground, and the whole idea was to create a productivity blueprint for this generation that actually acknowledged the reality of social media, the 24-hour news cycle, the... Even things like house prices, the fact that we actually have to work for X amount of time to be able to do X, the fact that we can do whatever online, the fact that we are bombarded with all types of success, whether it's, like, a friend from school's marriage or someone's promotion or, you know, like-
13. 1:46:22 – 1:54:57

    Setting goals

    1. GBGrace Beverley1:46:22

       your self-care. What's your process for setting goals? I feel like this is a test on my book material. I'm, I'm not sure if it's in the book. Um- It is. Oh, is it? It's in chapter four. Damn. Defining success. Shit. [laughs] It's proof that I did write the book. Excellent. People are always like, "You had a ghostwriter." I'm like, "The problem with a ghostwriter [laughs] is the fact that..." And I, there's nothing against having a ghostwriter. Mm. For so many people, it doesn't make sense for them to write something. But if it's really bad, I don't want to take credit for writing it- Yeah. [laughs] ... 'cause I don't want you to think it's really bad. And if it's really good, I don't wanna take credit for writing it because I didn't do it. So I was like, instantly they were like, "Ghostwriter." And I was like, "I spent my uni doing 10,000 words a week. This is my bag." Mm. I'm like, "I can do this. I can sit down and write," and half of it will be shit, but at least, like, the bit that will end up in the end will hopefully be good. And hopefully that's been proved by the fact that, you know, it's still, still selling well and all of this- Yeah ... and I'm not posting about it and all that. Anyway, the defining success thing, I think that goal setting again, really, really, really important. It's kind of like long-term time management. Okay. It's like setting... We probably have in our head these destinations that we want to get to, and somewhere along the way that destination will change. But if we don't acknowledge its change, we're probably, like, autopiloting towards that and we're actually like, "Huh, that's actually not what I wanna do anymore." And I think goal setting as much as it, like, comes across quite woo woo and wishy-washy, it's literally like the steer- steering wheel to make sure you're going in the right direction. Yeah. Yeah, I think it c- it can come across woo woo and wishy-washy, but there's also another side of it which is very much smart goal, like- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like- ... 4% body fat percentage by, like, two weeks from now- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... and all that shit. Exactly. And so, yeah. So I like mine to be somewhere in between. Mm. I like to have my SMART goals, which... Do we need to go through them? What a SMART goal is? You can Google what a SMART goal is. Yeah, we can Google it. Yeah. [laughs] Um, so, so, like a SMART goal, I like to have those because I think it's really important. So I'll say, "I want to, you know, have X amount more revenue based on, like, last year from this-" Mm ... "or whatever by this time." But actually a lot of my things, because I'm, because, you know, we're reporting every week and I do so much stuff that is, like, measurable, I try and do more floaty goals too, which I think is important weirdly. So what's a floaty goal? Well, it just, you know, like- Explain ... I want to, by this time I want to feel like I've made more progress towards this. Okay. Yeah. Or I want to feel more fulfilled in my every day because I am including more hobbies. Nice. Or any of these things. Goal setting wise, I usually do, I'll do key points in the year. Um, I'll do year go- uh, yearly goal setting, quarterly goal setting, monthly goal setting, and weekly goal setting- Cool ... and daily goal setting. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. [laughs] Which sounds like I probably sit there for like five hours a day being like, "What do I want my goals to be?" and never actually doing the work. And I think that if we thought we spent half as much time worrying about how, like, woo woo doing that much goal setting- ... is, and we'd be getting to our goals a lot quicker. I think that, you know, goal setting can be as small as writing down three non-negotiables that you're gonna do that day. That's, like, that's-

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:49:19

       Right

    3. GBGrace Beverley1:49:19

       ... you're setting those three goals for your day. So I think that we don't need to think of it as doing a scrap work, like vision board every day.

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:49:25

       Like a vision board or whatever, yeah.

    5. GBGrace Beverley1:49:25

       But I think some direction is really, really, really important. So yearly goals that will be split into kind of work goals, personal goals, and I'll have some smart goals in there, and I'll also have some like, "I just wanna feel generally more like this."

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:49:38

       Mm.

    7. GBGrace Beverley1:49:38

       Where- whereas, like, down to daily goals, every single day I will write three non-negotiable things I'll do that day. Like, a year is literally just 365 days, and I know that's so, it's obvious, but it's also that accumulation. Say if you're setting monthly goals, you need to do things in that month that's gonna get towards those goals. And the, I mean, it's all the atomic habit stuff, like the, the first thing that you can do to do to the... to get to those are the small minute changes make the biggest result. So every single day I'll have three non-negotiable things that I am doing that day without fail. And at the same time, you know, in my weeks it'll be a bit broader, in my months it'll be a bit broader. But again, I don't spend more than, you know, probably 20 minutes on a monthly. Yearly I might spend an hour and have a bit of a think about it and all of that, but daily, two minutes writing down my non-negotiable goals.

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:50:31

       Mm.

    9. GBGrace Beverley1:50:31

       But I think it's really, really, really important. I think an example of that f- uh, would be, you know, when we were talking about my career, my big goal when I was probably in second year at university would be to have, like, a big collaboration with a fast fashion brand. So that was what was happening. Like, the most successful kind of YouTubers and all of that were having these collaborations with Pretty Little Thing, Boohoo, all of that. And that was my, like, big goal. I was kind of just, like, aimlessly working, doing as much as I could, like all of these things. And I kind of realized, like, about nine months into the year before goal setting for the next year, I was like, "Not only is that not a goal anymore, I also actually wouldn't take it if I was offered that." Like, it's, it's so out of line. And for those changes to happen that, you know, there'll be years where we have bigger shifts in mindset than others, like I don't have that every year. But I think actually acknowledging and writing those things down is, it takes two seconds and it's so, so, so important. And I think a lot of the time, especially as we grow up, our priorities shift and we realize that actually we don't want to make 10 grand extra. We want to spend three more days a week with our friends.

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:51:38

        Mm.

    11. GBGrace Beverley1:51:38

        You know, all of those different things. So I think that my goal setting's quite, like, granular. I don't think it always looks like goal setting.

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:51:44

        Mm.

    13. GBGrace Beverley1:51:45

        Often it will just be about, you know, good planning. [laughs]

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:51:48

        Yeah. Yeah, I think that's... I think my approach to goal setting is similar, where sometimes I'll benefit from a smart goal and sometimes I won't.

    15. GBGrace Beverley1:51:54

        Yeah.

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:51:54

        I'll just be like... You know, I got a, a full body DEXA scan the other day, where it's like for the first time I'm seeing, like, my body fat percentage and muscle mass. And I found that, like, ridiculously, like, liberating and empowering and like, yes, motivating to take gym more seriously.

    17. GBGrace Beverley1:52:07

        Mm.

    18. AAAli Abdaal1:52:07

        But I know so many people who would, like, that would be the last thing on earth that they would want because they don't want, like, working out to be a numerical thing.

    19. GBGrace Beverley1:52:12

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    20. AAAli Abdaal1:52:13

        But for me it's like, "Oh, that, that's kind of fun."

    21. GBGrace Beverley1:52:14

        Oh, no, I do-

    22. AAAli Abdaal1:52:15

        Yeah

    23. GBGrace Beverley1:52:15

        ... 'cause I judge myself entirely based on, like, I need to be able to attribute progress to some sort of measurable way.

    24. AAAli Abdaal1:52:22

        Okay.

    25. GBGrace Beverley1:52:23

        In terms of, like, rather than, you know, the, the healthy thing to do would probably be say, "I'm going to make sure I go to the gym four days a week."

    26. AAAli Abdaal1:52:31

        Mm.

    27. GBGrace Beverley1:52:31

        Whereas if the aim of going to the gym four days a week is to lose weight, for example, it's like not a current goal of mine, but, like, say if that was the thing, I'd rather judge it based on that.

    28. AAAli Abdaal1:52:41

        Yeah.

    29. GBGrace Beverley1:52:42

        So it will be, I'm really probably, like, and I think a lot of type A people are, are really concentrated on numbers.

    30. AAAli Abdaal1:52:49

        Mm.
14. 1:54:57 – 2:00:20

    Burnout

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:54:57

       I guess final question on this productivity front, and we'll put links to the book in, in all the things. People can check it out. It's genuinely very good. Um-

    2. GBGrace Beverley1:55:03

       Thank you

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:55:03

       ... uh, w- w- what are your personal sym- signs and symptoms of burnout?

    4. GBGrace Beverley1:55:08

       Ooh.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:55:08

       Like, how do you know when you're, like, encroaching burnout territory or you're in burnout territory? And, and I guess, like, what does the word even mean to you?

    6. GBGrace Beverley1:55:14

       Yeah.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:55:14

       Because people seem to have different- ... definitions of it.

    8. GBGrace Beverley1:55:16

       So I talk about it a lot in the book, and I do think that there's this difference between clinical burnout, which is a really serious thing that you get signed off work for, that is a medical term, that is hugely debilitating, all of this. And I also think that there is this kind of idea of mini burnout, and I would say that a lot of people now have mini burnout because wo- you don't leave work at the office if you have an office. You definitely don't leave work at the office if you work from home. You also, even if you then think you do, going on social media, say every time I go on social media, I'll probably see five different active wear competitors. I'll probably see 50 different influencers who are doing better content than I do. I will probably see 10 different friends who have more successful relationships, fashion senses. Like, w- all of these things. We are working in some way all the time, and I think that it's like that's why these older [laughs] generations look at us and they're like, "Oh, fucking boo-hoo." Like, "You've got access to social media, and it's burning you out because you're looking at other people's clothes." But I do think it's really, it's the same as talking about the 24-hour news cycle. It is our brains are never fully relaxed, and therefore they never get full resp- respite in order to reset and, you know, go again. Like, if you're swiping through TikTok every night before bed, your brain is not going to rest in the same way and you're fatiguing yourself. And I do think that a lot of... And that's not to say that, you know, I don't do that sometimes. And I, I will be the first to say that I have so much advice, and I take absolutely none of it. But I also think that we as a generation are increasingly burnt out based on the fact that work doesn't l- just look like work, emails just aren't, aren't just on a computer, your office isn't just on an office, your phone isn't just a phone. Like, all of these things. And I think that, you know, the aim of the book was to give also a certain amount of tools to deal with that. I think my signs in particular of burnout are, I think I've been slightly burnt out for a very long time now. I think I've probably been slightly burnt out as soon as I even started slowing down the, the social media stuff.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:57:23

       Mm.

    10. GBGrace Beverley1:57:24

        Which was a- originally, I think I only realized that when I did slow it down and I was like, "Oh my God, this time it's not like feeling like I've got a lot of time back. It's just feeling like a bit of a breath of fresh air."

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:57:33

        Yeah.

    12. GBGrace Beverley1:57:33

        Just because I was also doing the degree at the same time and-

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:57:36

        Yeah

    14. GBGrace Beverley1:57:36

        ... also bombarded with so many opinions, positive, negative, all the same, like. And I think that I've never actually fully recovered from that, and I think that it's also part of the fact that we don't talk about one of the downfalls of passions is that if you're working on your passion, you're probably not gonna realize when you're burnt out because there's this, like, necessity, whether internal or external, because it's a business that you put into a lot of money into or internal because you believe in it so much and you love it and you really want it to succeed. It's like when you're working for ages and you don't realize until you look up how long you've been working for and you're really, like, your whole brain's just zapped. And I think that we don't talk about how exhausting working on something you're passionate about can be because you exert yourself that much more. Now, that's not to say that it's as, like I've mentioned, it's not to say that it's not a hugely privileged position because it is. But I also think that when we're encouraging like work on your passion, like all of this, also remembering the fact that if you're there every day so trying to make this idea into a business and so trying to make this work and so trying to get your side hustle off the ground and all of these things, you're also allowed to feel burnt out and like it's a lot. And I think giving myself permission to do that has been a big learning curve. Uh, I don't think I'm quite there yet. But actually acknowledging that especially because my, a lot of my job is online, burnout is not necessarily just going to be mitigated by working less.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:59:01

        Mm.

    16. GBGrace Beverley1:59:01

        First of all, I often can't do that because first of all, you know, we have VC investors. I'm contracted to things. I want to make things happen, like all of these different things. But also I, I think that the even if I w- worked less, you know, at any one time for a week, I'm still gonna probably be in some way on social media or consuming people's opinions or seeing people's like active wear in the street, whatever it might be.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:59:27

        Yeah.

    18. GBGrace Beverley1:59:27

        One of the most valuable things I've implemented for myself is just really, really understanding where my boundaries are and understanding where they shift as well because my boundaries from one year to the next aren't gonna be the same. My boundaries from winter to summer aren't gonna be the same. I'm gonna be able to lot, work a lot harder and not feel like I'm missing out in winter than I am in summer. And just giving myself the respect to know that of course I need to work hard, and I do work incredibly hard, and I don't think I need pushing in that direction. I think that anyone who knows me [laughs] knows that.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:59:54

        Yeah.

    20. GBGrace Beverley1:59:54

        And actually knowing that I, the probably more the way I need to mother myself is just be like, "No, get in the bath."

    21. AAAli Abdaal2:00:01

        Mm.

    22. GBGrace Beverley2:00:01

        You won't... And also not on your phone. Like, reading is one of the biggest ways I relax, and not nonfiction books. Don't buy my book. It, uh, fiction books and, you know, reading novels because you can't concentrate on anything else.

    23. AAAli Abdaal2:00:11

        Mm-hmm.

    24. GBGrace Beverley2:00:12

        And finding those things that take you completely away from the reality of like work and life and everything I think is so important.

    25. AAAli Abdaal2:00:19

        Grace,

15. 2:00:20 – 2:04:54

    Grace’s favourite books

    1. AAAli Abdaal2:00:20

       thank you so much. This has been a fantastic conversation. I'd love to get some fiction book recommendations. What's something-

    2. GBGrace Beverley2:00:24

       Or-

    3. AAAli Abdaal2:00:24

       What's a, a book or two-

    4. GBGrace Beverley2:00:25

       Can I actually get out my lip-

    5. AAAli Abdaal2:00:26

       Please, yes

    6. GBGrace Beverley2:00:26

       ... list?

    7. AAAli Abdaal2:00:26

       I would, I would love that.

    8. GBGrace Beverley2:00:27

       Okay.

    9. AAAli Abdaal2:00:27

       I'm, I'm huge on, uh, fantasy these days, but I'm keen to explore other genres as well.

    10. GBGrace Beverley2:00:32

        Okay. So for anyone watching, this is my succinct novel list for the best summer of your life.

    11. AAAli Abdaal2:00:40

        Sick. [laughs]

    12. GBGrace Beverley2:00:41

        Um, these are the gripping or life-changing ones. Educated by Tarar Westover.

    13. AAAli Abdaal2:00:46

        Yeah.

    14. GBGrace Beverley2:00:46

        The Nightingale by Kristin Hannah.

    15. AAAli Abdaal2:00:48

        Mm.

    16. GBGrace Beverley2:00:49

        Small Great Things by Jodi Picoult. The Storyteller, also by Jodi Picoult. I Am Pilgrim by Terry Hayes. And Eleph- Eleanor Oliphant is Completely Fine by Gail Honeyman. I think those are really good books that none of them are a chore to read. Okay. Girly and fun. I assume you're very much into this genre.

    17. AAAli Abdaal2:01:07

        Very much so. They've got Twilight over there somewhere.

    18. GBGrace Beverley2:01:10

        Great.

    19. AAAli Abdaal2:01:10

        One Direction's autobiography.

    20. GBGrace Beverley2:01:12

        These are all fantastic.

    21. AAAli Abdaal2:01:13

        [laughs] Okay.

    22. GBGrace Beverley2:01:14

        The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, Daisy Jones and The Six, Grown Ups, Malibu Rising, The Flat Share, The Break- And Seven Days in June

    23. AAAli Abdaal2:01:23

        I've read The Flat Share.

    24. GBGrace Beverley2:01:24

        Have you?

    25. AAAli Abdaal2:01:24

        I really, I really enjoyed that.

    26. GBGrace Beverley2:01:25

        So good.

    27. AAAli Abdaal2:01:25

        I don't know how I came across it, but it was re- I read it in one sitting. It was so good. [laughs]

    28. GBGrace Beverley2:01:27

        Really good. All of those ones are like that. They're kind of like if the sensation you have is similar to watching a really good TV series.

    29. AAAli Abdaal2:01:34

        Mm.

    30. GBGrace Beverley2:01:35

        It's fun, it's funny, it's not a chore, and it just makes sense. Really important. And then I'd say thrillers, Sharp Objects, Behind Closed Doors, and The Night She Disappeared. That was just the summer reading list I wrote for my Instagram. [laughs]

Episode duration: 2:04:54