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How To Build Career Success - Behavioural Scientist Dr Grace Lordan

In the conversation Ali takes a deep dive into Grace's book covering tonnes of behavioural science concepts including how our emotions influence decision making, the relationship between gender and risk aversion and why we procrastinate…

Dr. Grace LordanguestAli Abdaalhost

Nov 1, 20211h 27mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

105 min read · 20,967 words

0:00 – 2:13
Intro
1. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  If I was to think about leaders of the future actually, their ability to stand up and say, "I don't know. I got it wrong," or, "I've changed my mind," those three things are really in the forefront of my mind. Because when you're navigating through uncertainty, you're gonna get it wrong sometimes, and that's okay. But it's the deliberate part. Have you sat down and deliberately now changed your mind?
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Hello and welcome to Deep Dive, the podcast that delves into the minds of entrepreneurs, creators, and other inspiring people to uncover their journeys towards finding joy and fulfillment at work and in life. My name is Ali, and in each episode, I chat to my guests about the philosophies, strategies, and tools that have helped them along the path to living a life of happiness and meaning. In this week's episode of Deep Dive, I sit down with Dr. Grace Lordan. Grace is an Associate Professor in Behavioral Science at the London School of Economics, an expert advisor to the UK government as a member of the Skills and Productivity Board, and her academic writings have been published in international academic journals. Earlier this year, Grace published her book, Think Big, Take Small Steps and Build the Future You Want.
3. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  If I were to be a doctor, if I were to be a trader, what would be the tasks that I would be doing on a day-to-day basis, and would I ultimately end up enjoying those tasks?
4. AAAli Abdaal
  In the conversation, we deep dive into Grace's book and tons of behavioral science concepts, including how our emotions influence decision-making, the relationship between gender and risk aversion, why we procrastinate, and our fear of failure.
5. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  The one thing about human beings is that we're really good actually at rebounding. So when we go through negative experience and, and we allow ourselves to go through negative experiences, we realize actually it's not as bad as I thought. There are other options later, and we tend to be very, very resilient. And when we're anticipating failure or anticipating losses, we underestimate that resilience.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  So please feel free to grab a cup of tea and enjoy the conversation. Dr. Lordan, thank you very much for coming on the show. You've have written this book, Think Big, um, which is extremely good. Uh, I finished it on Audible this morning, and we were talking about, yeah, your kind of woes with recording the audiobook. Uh, which is very good. Like, I, I, I thought the, the way you were narrating it, it was very, like, expressive. Um, a lot of the audiobooks that I listen to are usually fantasy fiction. It's a very, like, non-expressive narrator. But so I, I could really hear the passion that was coming, coming through in your voice as you were, as you were narrating it.
7. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  I did some drama classes as a kid, so I think that-
8. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
9. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... they came into good use for the first time ever-
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Nice
11. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... since I've left school. [laughs]
12. AAAli Abdaal
  That's very handy. Um, yeah, so lots of stuff I wanna talk about in the book.
2:13 – 5:41
Government Advisory for Productivity
1. AAAli Abdaal
  Before we get started, you are apparently on the Government Advisory Body for Productivity and Skills, which is very cool. Um, what does, what does, what does that mean, and how did... How, how does one get into the Government Advisory Body for Productivity?
2. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  It's a great question, actually. So it sits under the, um, Secretary of State, um, reporting into Boris, um, and it's part of the leveling up strategy, and the idea is really to think about skills of the future and how they will be delivered, um, in the UK. So, um, Boris has, um, come out and basically said that he doesn't think education should just be about secondary school and should just be about young people going to university anymore. It should be that you get to go to university when you're 25, 35, 45. Um, and I guess part of our job is really thinking about how those skills could actually be delivered and looking to see actually, given what we have already, whether or not there's some people who are doing better than others in delivering skills.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. Like, so how, how did you, how did you get this job? Do they, like... Does the government email you? Does someone knock on your door? How did, how did, how did that work?
4. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  This was an open competition.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
6. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So they basically advertise. They ask for things like, you know, backgrounds in economics, backgrounds in labor. Um, and I think from their perspective, my backgrounds in economics coupled with the behavioral, um, science stuff and actually having written the book on kind of, um, thinking about careers from an individual perspective was quite appealing. So we've ended up being, um... We're six people, six experts on the committee. One person's an education specialist, four traditional economists, and then there's kinda me, who fits be- between the kind of behavioral economics mold.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. Yeah, so you're an Associate Professor of Behavioral Sciences at LSE, is that right?
8. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, w- well, one thing that intrigued me as I was reading about, uh, in, in reading about your background, like I, I wouldn't have thought that behavioral sciences in terms of, like, you know, time management and productivity and procrastination, some of the stuff you talk about in the book, that feels to me as, like, a layperson that knows nothing, to not quite fit within economics. So, like, how, how does, how does behavioral science fit into economics as a field?
10. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So I mean, if you think about the simple, um, lesson that you might learn if you, if you've taken an economics class, we learn that when people are making decisions, they weigh up the cost, the benefits, and the risk. Um, and I know you have a medical background, so you can appreciate that if someone is choosing to have a Big Mac today, that you might necessarily believe that they're weighing up the cost in 10 years' time, and the second Big Mac the next day, and this, and the third Big Mac. And that's really where I kinda come from, is thinking, how do people actually make decisions, but how can we tweak that model to really understand human decision-making, um, in a much better way than economists do, and in a way that's actually useful for policymakers, which I think that a lot of psychologists fail. So I kinda put myself-
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
12. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... in the center where we want to be able to advise government. I wanna be able to advise firms on what they should actually do to make people happier, more productive, whatever is their goal in a particular moment. And to do that, we fundamentally need to understand, um, decision-making. And the second thing that's really important to understand is the intent-to-action gap. So why is it that I, as Grace, would say I will do things today-
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
14. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... but very often don't end up doing them? And, you know, whether we talk about education, you know, people who enter education often don't study as much as they should. Um, people often choose courses that are particularly bad for them even though they say that they might actually, um, go another path. So again, it's really getting down to the nitty-gritty of, how can we alter decision-making in a way that's not paternalistic but is giving people information to help them go in the right direction?
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm. Okay. Yeah, the intent-to-action gap, I th- I think, like, we've all felt that in our lives, like, multiple times a day. As I was reading this, I started listening to your book about four or five days ago, and the very first chapter talks about
5:41 – 12:13
Finding your Me+
1. AAAli Abdaal
  this idea of Me+.
2. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, I wonder if you can, like, elaborate. Like, what does, what does Me+ mean? [laughs]
4. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So if you... I mean, if you go back to the economics, we're really good I think at making... at, at helping ourselves in, in the present day. So we know what makes us happy in the moment, but very often the things that we have to invest in to give our future selves a better future, we don't often do. So what I like people to do is to think about where would they like to be if it all worked out. So if they threw out, you know, loss aversion, if they threw out fear of failure, where will they actually end up being? And have that be their Me+. But before they commit to that being their Me+, really think about, what will that Me+ actually do? Because I've noticed a lot of times when I talk to people about careers, they're attached to a label.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
6. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So they wanna be a trader or an investment banker or they wanna be a doctor. Or they're attached to a lifestyle, so they wanna be able to go on a particular vacation or buy a particular car. And the kind of Think Big journey is really thinking about If I were to be a doctor, if I were to be a trader, what would be the tasks that I would be doing on a day-to-day basis, and would I ultimately end up enjoying those tasks, so the activities that I'm gonna spend the time in? And there's two reasons for that. So one, it makes you happier to actually do tasks that you like, which feels like a no-brainer. But secondly, if you're engaged in tasks that you like, you tend to be more successful. And it's the second that I'm really interested in, in kinda getting people into jobs where they feel that they've reached the success that they want.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. Interesting. And do you think when it comes to being engaged in tasks that, that you like, some people say it's a case of find the thing that fits within your values, your personality, and when, once you find that thing, then you'll find it fun, and then there's another school of thought that says, well, you know, the whole finding something that you're passionate about is actually k- kinda hard to do, so think about the stuff that you're actually doing and find ways to make it more interesting for yourself. Uh, how, how do you, how do you feel about those two different, different camps? [laughs]
8. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  I don't really feel that, that, that they're different. So, you know, so, so people are claiming now that they choose companies based on the values the companies might have.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
10. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And I think that's true in the same way that we choose a company based on a salary. But when you're actually in the job, what tends to matter with respect to productivity and happiness is how you feel in those tasks in that moment. And if I'm working for a company that's saving the environment, but I'm being treated really badly in a microculture in order to save that environment, and there's a couple of companies come to mind when I think about that, um, then I'm not going to be productive, and I'm not going to be happy, and I'm actually likely to leave that, that, that job. So it's more about going beyond thinking what is the company's mission, what is my personality, and what is the microculture of the team that I'm going to be working in, and will that make me happy? Will I be connected to the mission because my team is connected to the mission?
11. AAAli Abdaal
  That's very hard to assess in advance when you're applying for a job.
12. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  It's really hard. It is, it's really-
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
14. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... really hard. And I think then if you bring it down to the tasks and a- asking at an interview, "What will I be doing on a day-to-day basis? Um, so when I come to work for you, Ali, what would I be doing on a day-to-day basis as part of your team?"
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
16. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Um, so, "If you could imagine me on a Monday, how will I spend my time?" The fact that you as a manager have thought about that firstly will tell me that you're a good manager-
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
18. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... because you'll know actually what you want the person to do, um, and you're not just hiring blindly. But the second is having that information allows me make my mind up because if the, if I like the tasks, I'm probably going to like the team.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. Yeah, that's very interesting. So the, uh, that was a big part of the message that I took away from the Me+ stuff. And the way it, it manifested in my life when I read it, I was, I was thinking, "Okay, you know, let's engage with this. Like, what's, what's kind of, what does Me+ look like?" And initially, I was thinking, "Oh, you know, I'd really like to have six-pack abs." And then I came across the bit where you were like, "No, no, forget about that. Focus on, like, what do, what, what do the tasks look like?" And then I was like, "Okay, you know what? What I want Me+ to do is to be able to exercise every day and to have fun doing it."
20. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yep.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, and so for the last four days, I've actually been to the gym. I went to a yoga class yesterday morning. I did a, a workout at, like, 8:00 AM this morning.
22. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Oops.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  And I, I've never really done this sort of thing, but I was, like, excited about that... I, I, I was excited that the end goal was not six pl- six-pack abs. I was excited that the end goal was, that in a way, there wasn't an end goal, and it was a case of just, I wanna be able to enjoy this. Um, is that the sort of thing that you get a lot when you're doing this sort of research, that-
24. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yes
25. AAAli Abdaal
  ... process rather than outcome kinda thing?
26. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So I kind of write a lot for kind of people who mightn't have made it yet or people who have plateaued. So if you, if you take the exercising analogy from somebody who's contemplating doing the kind of a 5K run rather than somebody who is contemplating doing the London Marathon and is really well placed for that.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
28. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And I think for the person who hasn't done exercise for a while or the person who hasn't really invested in their career for a while, the worst thing they can do is do too much.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
30. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So if you haven't invested for a while, the worst thing you could do is go to the gym for three hours. You might get through it today-
12:13 – 20:00
Setting goals
1. AAAli Abdaal
  one, one bit that I was gonna ask you about that I, I, I thought maybe I disagreed with was you talk, like, the title of the book is Think Big.
2. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  And the vibe I got from the chapter around goals is that you're keen on people setting, or, uh, uh, uh, perhaps not, but, like, s- one, one camp of people in this sphere is encouraging people to set these big, hairy, audacious goals, and then figuring out the small steps taken, you can, you can take to get there. But then there's another camp, and this is sort of where, where, where, where I think I am, whereby- I think in a way I feel maybe setting goals is a bit overrated because if you're setting a goal, then you're es- essentially to me that feels like a contract to be unhappy until you hit the goal, and then you hit the goal and then you have this like fleeting sense of like, "Oh, I hit a million subscribers. Cool."
4. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yep.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  You know, my day-to-day hasn't really changed, et cetera, et cetera. So the way I kind of think about goals is I try, I try and throw goals out of the window and instead just focus on those, like what do I actually want to do. But I dunno if I'm just like BS'ing myself and like [laughs]
6. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs] Well it looks like, I mean, you're doing okay.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
8. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So I mean, it, it, that seems to be working for you. I mean, I think it's... So, so for people who read the book, the goal is really there to serve two purposes.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
10. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So one, so that you start investing in your career, so it helps define the tasks this week.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
12. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And two, so that you actually bring your future self forward so you're not always investing in activities that just serve you in the present day. But in the book I do talk about the idea that every, um, Sunday, so every kind of... Well, I, I pick Sunday 'cause it's the start of my week, that you reflect on how the week previous went and you look to see whether or not there are new opportunities that you should be pivoting your goal for. So I see the think big part of the book as really giving people a direction so they can set off on a journey-
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
14. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... and they start walking.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep.
16. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And more interesting things might actually come along, but they make a conscious decision to, to follow those interesting things, so then they go off on a, a slightly different journey. So if you take your own career, for example, it was probably a great idea that you studied medicine in Cambridge, right? And now you have an entirely different career-
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep [laughs]
18. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... but you are using some of the skills that you actually learnt in the university. So in that particular case you would've sat back and said, "Actually, do I really wanna pivot and do a large pivot?" And the answer would've been yes. But had you never gone into medi- med- medical school, maybe you would never have started walking in this direction and come to the destination. So it's really about movement.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, okay. That's very interesting. Um, I was having these thoughts, uh... It was, it was a few weeks ago and I was on a date [laughs] and we went, uh, we were kind of driving around afterwards just like chatting. And I was kind of thinking that like driving around without a destination is just... Like if, it felt a bit wrong. And so I just put the set destination of the like, the McDonald's drive-thru in the sat nav. And it wa- it wasn't really about the destination, it was about the, "Okay, I've got a destination. Now, now I know what the, what, what the journey is." And when we got to the McDonald's drive-thru I was like, "What, what else? It's a McDonald's drive-thru." Like the, the destination is actually not that important. But the point is I was thinking, "Huh, maybe having the destination lets you kind of set the direction for your journey, and then you can always change your mind as you, as you go further down the line."
20. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And as humans we love certainty. So even if we've created for ourselves this is the goal that we're moving towards, then we change our mind.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
22. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  For the period of time that we're moving, there is certainty. One of the biggest things that hampers people's growth and, you know, f- stops them kind of getting to the place of, where they probably deserve to be is that they feel that the, the journey is actually uncertain. So by kind of having that destination allows you to kind of tr- to move towards it.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, okay. Yeah. This reminds me of advice I got when I was in, in med school where, like once you've, once you've done your, once you start your clinical years, the question everyone asks is, "Oh, what specialty do you want to do?" And the honest answer for the vast majority of people is, "I don't freaking know. I have no idea." [laughs]
24. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah. [laughs]
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Like you know. There are those odd like weirdos that have decided on the age of, at the age of three they wanna be a neurosurgeon.
26. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, but for most of us it's like, "Honestly, I don't know. I just wanna kind of get a feel of different specialties and kind of..." Um, and the advice that one of, one of the consultants who I really respected gave me was that, "Look, honestly, just pick something and start moving towards it, because then you will start doing things that will build up your CV and you'll start actually finding opportunities your way."
28. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  And then if you wanna change your mind, it, it's much easier to change direction when you're moving forward rather than when you're, when you're stationary.
30. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And you learn about yourself as well, what do I like and what do I, what do I dislike, which you won't do if you're just, if you're s- kind of standing still. So kind of, you know, the... I write about what should you do if you have no idea what you wanna do in the future-
20:00 – 29:48
Figuring out what you want
1. AAAli Abdaal
  in that position go about figuring this out? And I kinda ask 'cause I, I feel like I'm kind of in that position right now, where it's like I have all these options in front of me, and I don't really know which one to pick, but, like, yeah.
2. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So I think for somebody who has no idea what they wanna do and who doesn't necessarily have options, it really is about bringing it back to what are the activities that I would like to do, and how can I get the skills to actually do those activities? And then going about spending time engaged in those activities. So maybe you wanna do some more public speaking, you know, trying to get on panels, um, trying to spend some time with people who might be actually able to get you into the room where you can do some public speaking in the future, going to talks and studying what makes a good speaker and what doesn't make a good speaker if you really, really have, really have no experience. And then maybe there are some skills that you have to pay for. And I do say in, in Think Big, for people who do not know what they want to do, I would avoid committing to a four-year degree or an expensive master's program and really use the resources that are out there that are either cheap or free. Because there's so many things that we can actually learn now without having to set foot in, in, into a traditional classroom. Even though I work in a university and we have wonderful degrees-
3. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
4. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... I think you need to be certain to spend, uh, spend that amount of money. And then I think for someone like you, I think doing time audits can really help. So during the week, writing down what you're, you're actually doing, which you probably do already, but writing down whether or not you actually enjoy doing them. Did you feel, firstly, a sense of purpose, that it was kind of leading you to a better place in five years' time, or did you feel fun in the moment?
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
6. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And then if there are activities that aren't kind of investing in you in five years' time and they're not giving you fun in the moment, consider job crafting, which I think you're in a good position to do, where you remove those activities and do more of the things that are giving you purpose and more of the things that are giving you fun today.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. Interesting. So time audit and thinking about was this thing fun, and if not, was it at least purposeful?
8. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yes.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  And if not, why the hell am I doing it? [laughs]
10. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yes. And I don't journal at all.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
12. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And I really just put these marks next to my diary. So after the event, I'll edit the calendar, and I'll say, "Yeah, I enjoyed that. That was good. That's gonna pay me forward in the future as well," uh, or, "Actually, that was really a drain of my energy, um, and, and let's avoid things like that in the future."
13. AAAli Abdaal
  One thing that I often kind of clash with my mom about is the idea of changing one's mind and making m- making plans and then changing, and then changing them a few weeks to months later. Um, so for example, uh, last year I had decided that, you know what, at the stage my career's currently at, I'm, I'm considering moving to America to continue to practice medicine, and started gearing myself up to take those exams, and, you know, uh, uh, made the mistake, may- well, maybe not, it had a good clickbait title, uh, of making a video called I'm Moving to America-
14. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs]
15. AAAli Abdaal
  ... uh, where I announced my plans for, like, moving to America. And then as I started preparing for this exam and realized how much work it was gonna be, and then as the YouTube channel started to explode, and I thought, hang on, maybe this, you know, moving to America, you know, I, it'll be four years of residency, b- is a reasonable amount of, a reasonable amount of hard work. Maybe it'll be fun, and at the end of it, you become a doctor who makes 400K a year or so- or something like that. But I saw, I could see the trajectory of the YouTube channel being more interesting than that point, and so I kinda pivoted and thought, "Screw this America thing." But now anytime, almost anytime I speak to someone, they will have seen that video, and they're like, "Hey, I thought you were moving to America." Especially my mom, she alw- often says that, "Hey, you know-
16. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs]
17. AAAli Abdaal
  ... you said you were moving to America, and then you changed your mind." Um, yeah. Well, d- do you think there's much, uh, or to what extent is there value in picking a goal and then sticking to it rather than just, like, willy-nilly changing one's mind?
18. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  I don't think you wanna change your mind willy-nilly. So I, I, I come in between, kind of in between you and your mom in some way.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
20. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So, so I think the first thing is, you know, maybe you should do a YouTube video on sunk cost fallacy, right?
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
22. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And talk to people about the fact that, you know, you have put yourself out there, you have this commitment device-
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
24. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... but actually, that's a cost that you'd have to sink, the embarrassment of actually changing your mind, because when you reviewed your options, and you review, reviewed them deliberately, it looked like sticking to YouTube was right for you. And I think that second part is really important to ask yourself, did you review your options and review them deliberately, kind of thinking about what are the costs and benefits?
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
26. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Or was it something else? Was it kind of the length of the residency? Was it a fear of failure? Was it loss aversion that drove you to that decision? And I think if it's deliberate, you absolutely should change your mind. Uh, you know, I think one of the big powerful kind of, um, influences on our decision-making is our emotions- Um, and when we think about the future, so if you think about doing a residency in America, it does actually sound quite scary to be, to, to be honest. Kinda going now, you know, doing four years when you clearly have a really good career at the moment. Um, were you anticipating kind of a loss that might not necessarily be realized, and not seeing gains that that trip would actually give you? And I think if, if you sit down and say, "Actually, I was deliberate," then you should change your mind. And I think one of the problems in society today is that we think that good citizens, good leaders, should never change their mind.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
28. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And I think in COVID, that was to the detriment of many countries because it took a lot for some leaders to come out and say, "Look, actually, this isn't the right strategy. I'm going to now change, I'm now going to change my mind." So if I was to think about leaders of the future actually, their ability to stand up and say, "I don't know, I got it wrong," or, "I've changed my mind," those three things are really in the forefront of my mind. Because when you're navigating through uncertainty, you're gonna get it wrong sometimes, and that's okay. But it's the deliberate part. Have you sat down and deliberately now changed your mind, or is it something, you used the word willy-nilly-
29. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
30. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... is it a willy-nilly kinda reflex action? And then it might be worth revisiting.
29:48 – 38:12
Behavioural Science Research
1. AAAli Abdaal
  do we know that that's actually legit? Like, what, what does the primary material look like?
2. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  It's a great question. So I mean, behavioral science isn't a discipline, so the research can come from economics, psychology, anthropology. And I think the big banner that I would put on it is that it's describing why people behave the way that they actually do. Um, so why do people procrastinate?
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
4. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Um, what's the reason that people work more productively together as teams? These are questions that behavioral scientists- And we'll look at. I think the, the big fascination with behavioral science- scientists is causality. So if you were to think about the, um, the COVID vaccine, a lot of the debates about it are, was, did, do we really have enough time to put it through field trials in the same way that other medicines have actually gone through these RCTs? And that's what behavioral science tries to mimic in the real world. So psychologists will do lab experiments with students. So if you look at the behavioral science literature, a lot of the kind of early ideas would be from bringing students into the lab. It's not scary like in the '70s, I promise. So, it, you know, really easy stuff, and looking to see whether or not we can change their behavior, uh, with a particular insight. And then somebody like me brings those insights into companies, into policy, and asks, "Is the stuff that's coming out of the students in the lab actually replicating in companies?" And a lot of times it doesn't, I will be very honest with you. Because obviously when we have students in the lab, we have them for a very short period of time.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
6. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  When I'm working with workers, I wanna know, did the change I make work in the moment, one week later, one month later, 12 months later? And because of that, methods are really important. So if you, if someone is listening and wants to pivot towards-
7. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
8. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... a career in behavioral science, you know, data science is absolutely your friend in this regards. And then I think at the top level we look at macro trends. So at the moment I'm building, um, an index, um, with Citibank that's going to look to see whether or not we can actually predict for profit and loss based on the culture that organizations actually have. Um, and again, what we're really gonna have an eye on is, is that useful for institutional investors so we can change their behavior, and can we change customer behavior? So it, it, there's kind of two things that I would c- want, want the listeners to kind of take away. One is about explaining behavior, whether it's at the lab level, individual level out in the real world, or the macro level. And secondly, it's really can we talk about causal effects? Are we sure that the change that we made, or are we sure that the analysis that we've run is really talking about, um, a direct effect?
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. Yeah, I, I thought the way that you handled some of these in, in, in the book was, was really, like, uh, like often you s- you see a, I dunno, a, a lifehacker.com article about-
10. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
11. AAAli Abdaal
  ... F- there's a study that shows that if you wear red, that then you'll perform better in this thing. Oh, amazing, so you should start wearing red. And the way you de- you describe this in the book, it's like, "Well, actually, um, it's, it's, it's fairly correlation-y and not very causation-y, but hey, maybe there's something there. Who knows? The evidence isn't quite there, but-
12. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
13. AAAli Abdaal
  ... you could maybe consider wearing red." And I thought, I, I kind of chuckled when I was, I was listening to that, 'cause I was like, that's a, a very nice way of describing the uncertainty that we often have in this sort of research.
14. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs] I am the worst person to actually get to write a magazine article 'cause I tend to kind of go, "Well, yes, the evidence says this, but maybe it mightn't work for you."
15. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
16. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  But I think that's honest, because the populations that are studied by behavioral scientists, including me, might be different from you. So there's two companies I'm working with at the moment down in Canary Wharf, they're right across the road from each other, and one experiment worked incredibly well in one company, and it did not necessar- it didn't work at all, actually, in the other company. We got zero, like a flat line zero effect. Um, and that's because context matters, and both of those companies have very different contexts, very different populations. They have their own subcultures and they have their own pressures, and it's the same for anything that you read in a magazine. So I, I encourage people to be experimental. So they might hear me say something, but they should say, "Actually, you know, I, m- maybe Grace knows something about what she's talking about-
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
18. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... but she doesn't know me. The only person who knows me is me, so I'm gonna experiment with her idea, and if it doesn't work, I'm going to throw it out." And that, for me, is a practice that I think we should do as individuals for our health and careers, as managers when we're leading teams, and a- and also in the government, you know? A, a leadership tactic that might work for Boris Johnson might not necessarily work for another leader. And unless you're mindful of that, you're gonna be taking on practices that somebody has given you that's actually based on evidence that can't be universal.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  We were, uh, brainstorming what we were gonna have as, like, the kind of, uh, intro music spiel for this podcast.
20. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Oh, what did you pick?
21. AAAli Abdaal
  And, uh, we haven't quite figured it out yet, but, like, one thing that I was, um, I, I, I wanted to say at the end of the intro is, you know, it, it, it, int- int- introduce the guest, explain what their credentials are and what we talk about in the episode, and something to the effect of, "So, um, s- sit back, grab a cup of tea, and remember to take everything you hear with a sprinkle of salt." Because I think, like, in these sorts of podcasts of web- that, you know-
22. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
23. AAAli Abdaal
  ... you've been on, I've been on, where a lot, pe- people are really giving life advice, you know?
24. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yep. [laughs]
25. AAAli Abdaal
  However you dress it up.
26. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs]
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, giving life advice, uh, we can only really speak to either our own personal experiences or, in your case, uh, evidence from, uh, fairly, like, not, uh, s- s- soft skill type stuff that is very hard to, like, you know, directly measure.
28. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Like a blood, a blood test increasing.
30. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
38:12 – 40:54
Pleasure vs Purpose
1. AAAli Abdaal
  dream job would be one where they've got pleasure plus purpose in the same thing.
2. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  And that would be great. Um, but if not, then some things are pleasurable and some things are purposeful, and just balancing those. Is that, is that fair to say?
4. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think as well the kind of adaptation that we feel as humans, they call it, it's called hedonic adaptation. Everything that you get, you'll adapt to it really quickly. So whether you get the nicest car, or whether you get a pay rise, you know, the happiness moments are really fleeting. So if you really are kind of in a place and you feel that things aren't going your way, trying to draw attention to things that are going right, kind of the small wins, so that you can kinda elongate the happiness that you'll actually get from the car, from the pay rise. Um, but also look at those kind of small moments. You know, if you have an interaction today with somebody and they insult you, it would probably weigh really heavy on you, whereas if somebody gives you a huge compliment, how long do you hold onto that? Which is a really interesting thing for us as humans, right? That we really are focused on the negative, we're focused on the losses, we're focused on our slice of ego. But we go through our day, and most of us actually have some, like, you know, really wonderful exchanges with people. We have some nice things happening to us. So drawing attention to those-
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
6. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... if you're feeling that you're striving and you're starting to burn out.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm. Yeah, it's like with YouTube comments. Like, 99.99% of them-
8. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
9. AAAli Abdaal
  ... are really nice, and you don't think about them. And then when there's one mean one that hits a bit too close to the bone-
10. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
11. AAAli Abdaal
  ... you think about that for the rest of the day. [laughs]
12. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Do you read them?
13. AAAli Abdaal
  I do, yeah.
14. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  You read all the comments?
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Uh, probably not all the comments-
16. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
17. AAAli Abdaal
  ... but certainly, certainly most of them. [laughs]
18. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Wow. That is good.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. Do you... You don't seem to have much of a social media presence, but you've done a lot of, like, writing in, in, in publications and things. Do you get, like, haters? Is, is, is that a thing?
20. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So recently I wrote, um, I wrote something for the FT.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh.
22. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And it polarized people. Um, and they usually turn off the comment box for kind of articles like the one that I wrote. So it was, it was about managers and about mediocre managers kind of holding back people's careers. Um, but it was really interesting to read those comments because people either really loved it in, in a five-star way, or they really hated it. And that polarization I think comes through a lot on social media, but I think it's imprinted in our society around kind of political values, um, around even what people like to watch on TV, that we're much more yes or no or all or nothing than we were in the past. And I think Think Big is really about kinda getting people to kinda come into the center a little bit and kind of say, actually, you know, you can have kind of more balance, and you can actually think both in your opinions if, if you think about polarization, but also in the choices that you make on a day-to-day basis.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs] Um, so in, in chapter two, chapter two, or ch- chapter three rather, um, you talk about internal, the internal things that are, like, either holding us back or help, can, can help us move forward to achieve our, our think big goals. Um, one of the concepts which is, is interesting is the idea of locus of control. Um, what is that?
40:54 – 44:16
Locus of control
1. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So locus of the control is the idea that there are two types of people in, in, in, in a way of kind of binarizing it. There are people who believe that everything is within their own control, so when negative events happen to them, they take control of the situation and they try to move forward in a way. So try to find a side door or try to find another entrance. And then there's people with an external locus of control who believe that everything happens to them.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
3. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So it's at the hands of other people. Um, it's at the hands of the universe in the extreme. Um, most of us will have both internal and external locus control depending on our, our domain. So maybe in family life, some people will have internal locus of control. They believe that they can control everything. They feel quite safe in their family life. In the work life, they think their career is happening to them. And I think, again, it isn't all or nothing. So getting people to think about what is it that I can actually control in this particular moment, and taking the choice to take that control. So I think even for people who are having a really terrible time in toxic workplaces, who are being bullied, there is something that they can, can actually control in that moment, and really encouraging them to take that control to allow them to move forward rather than just seeing the negative and just seeing the bad things that are happening to them with the idea that they can get out of that situation.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm. Okay. How do, how do people end up with internal/external- Loci, loci, loci
5. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  We don't know. So this, the, and this would come down in the same way, uh, like genetics. So you would have people who would believe in nature-
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
7. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... and people who would believe in nurture. And I think the reality is that it's probably a combination of both. So our genetics probably give us some proportion of our locus con- of control, uh, when we're born, um, depending on the kind of experiences that our ancestors have had. But I think the biggest thing is going to be the environment that you actually grow up in. So I think if you're put in an environment where you're encouraged to make decisions when you're really young, you're encouraged to kind of choose your own path, choose your own toys in the play box, for example, that's going to allow you think that you are, are then more in control of your, your own destiny as somebody who has these kind of really, really structured lives and thinks that everything is coming for them. And I saw a researcher, and I can't think of his name, but he's working on the changes of the generation from generations where kids were just left to play, so they were kind of pushed out in the road, towards this kind of structured education where people go to different sessions at particular times, but their whole day is stacked by their parents. It does seem to have some influence on whether or not you think you can actually control your own destiny, those kind of early moments.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm. That's interesting. I guess, like, so I feel like I'm, I'm quite an internal locus of controlly type person, but I, I wonder if that can also go too far. Like, if, for example, I don't know, I get rejected by a girl, and I, you know, there's an, an extent to which it is useful for me to internalize that as, okay, I could have controlled that situation. I did badly, therefore, what can I learn from this, et cetera.
9. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
10. AAAli Abdaal
  But there's also a part of it that's like, well, actually, there are a, a thousand reasons why I've been rejected by this girl that have nothing to do with me in the slightest.
11. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, and I guess it is about balancing the two that sometimes it is actually external factors that have led to something-
13. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
14. AAAli Abdaal
  ... that are completely outside of your control, but let's think about what are the things we can control and what can we do differently next time potentially.
15. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And I think this is a really good attitude in decision-making. So if you think about how most people determine whether or not an outcome is successful, they will look to see did they succeed or fail.
44:16 – 46:22
Anticipating failure
1. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So do they get a checkbox or do they get an X? And in, in that case, for people with the internal locus of control, as you pointed out, being rejected f- by a, a, a, a girl could be, could be this really negative experience that's hard to rebound from. If you take the behavioral science perspective or you take kind of good decision-making, kind of 101 if you come to one of my classes, you should be focusing on if you have an outcome that other people would label success and fail, sitting down and thinking, what did, what did I control in that particular situation? What could I have done differently? What was my input, and what was down to luck?
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
3. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And in luck, I would put anything that's determined out- outside yourself by other, by other people. And then it's really about identifying those things that you can control and taking hold of them and not over-obsessing on the stuff that is outside your con- outside your control. So in some ways, it's kind of taking the best of the internal lo- of locus of control, recognizing that luck does play a role in determining these outcomes of success and failure. And, and people who do these postmortems really do see learning in failure, but they don't dwell on failure.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
5. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Um, so if they have a fa- if, if, if, if they fail on a particular moment, they're sitting down saying, "What could I have done differently?" And then for the future, they're taking those lessons on board.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah, speak- speaking of failure, so you, you talk in that chapter about anticipating failure-
7. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
8. AAAli Abdaal
  ... and how often that hold, holds people back. I wonder if you can talk, like, what, what does that mean to anticipate failure?
9. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah, so I mean, so anticipation of an event brings on anxieties that can be worse than actually experiencing an event itself. So very often if you talk to people who report having anxieties or who report having worries, they're talking about something that might actually happen in the future more than something that they're going through in a particular moment. And anticipated loss aversion is exactly that. You know, it's been shown that when I think about what it's like to not get a promotion, to fluff up if I'm doing some public speaking, um, to do something badly, that the kind of how I imagine myself feeling that sadness is, is felt in my body-
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
11. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... in, in, in the way this manifests, but it's much worse than actually going through it. And I think the one thing about human beings is that we're really good actually at rebounding. So when we go through negative experience and we allow ourselves to go through negative experiences, we realize actually it's not as bad as I thought. There are other options later,
46:22 – 52:40
Gender and risk aversion
1. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  and we tend to be very, very resilient. And when we're anticipating failure or anticipating losses, we underestimate that resilience. Um, so some of the kind of most successful people in our society are people who have failed a lot because firstly, they're learning from their failure, but secondly, you're probably not gonna get very far in life without experiencing failure, right? You're gonna have to get rejected. So you know, uh, uh, on the dating market, it's exactly the same. You're not gonna meet probably the exact person for you with all the people out in the world if you don't go and meet some people who are wrong for you in the beginning. It's the same with jobs.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
3. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So really kind of taking that on board that actually you're gonna do some things, people aren't gonna like you, you're gonna get negative feedback, it's gonna be unfair, you're gonna have bad luck. But there's learning in that, and you're still on that journey.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Nice. Um, one, one bit of the book that I, I liked was when you referenced the dating market in terms of... I, I, I think it was around differences in genders between-
5. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah. [laughs]
6. AAAli Abdaal
  ... like, risk-taking and risk aversion. I wonder if you can kind of just talk about that briefly.
7. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  I would love to test this. So one thing that we know for sure at the average level is that women do tend to be, um, more risk-averse as compared to men. So men are risk-averse, but just less so than women. And I have this theory that men were able to be rejected much more in early years, kind of when they were learning about whether failure is acceptable or not because they have to ask, you know, women on dates in most cultures. So when you're asking a girl, you know, at 12, 13 years of age, and they say no to you if you're at, at a disco, that's going to be terrible, but actually you're learning that it's not that bad. So the second time you ask, the third time you ask, the fourth time that you ask, you know, there will be people who are actually so resilient to this that by the time they're 15, 16, 17, they're not feeling that failure, and we carry that into other domains in our lives, is that there are these positive spillovers. So I think by having women not necessarily, um, represented in competitive sports to the same degree as men, so they're not, you know, feeling that they can lose in, in, in the same way from early life, and also not being the ones to ask. I'm hoping that's changing though. I, I, I'm hearing that it is. But not being the ones to ask as often as men, that does set the parameter for risk aversion that economists care a lot about.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. And I guess when it comes to even things like, uh, asking for a promotion or asking for a raise- If, if at the average level there's even a 1% difference in risk aversion between men and women, that at the, at the extremes is gonna translate to a significant disparity between people who get promoted and people who don't.
9. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Absolutely.
10. AAAli Abdaal
  And obviously they're, it's all multifactorial, but yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting how that, that, you know, yeah, theoretically could, could, could be down to that. Um, I have a bunch of, uh, female friends who are currently on the dating market, and I, you know, they're always like, "Oh, you know, I don't like these out. Yeah, I, I, I could never ask a guy out because I'll get rejected." And I'm like, "Come on." [laughs] Like-
11. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Are they on the da- are they on dating, like on technology, or are they out there, like asking people out on the, on, on the street in the, in the way in the US?
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, no, everyone's in the, everyone's on the apps.
13. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
14. AAAli Abdaal
  No one ever asks people out on the str- well, other than a subset of guys that are into that sort of thing. [laughs]
15. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs] It still happens in the US though-
16. AAAli Abdaal
  It does
17. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... which always amazed me. Yeah.
18. AAAli Abdaal
  But people go up to each other in real life and-
19. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  In real life, yeah.
20. AAAli Abdaal
  No way.
21. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Have always done it. So the technology is just as big as it is here, but that part of the culture hasn't gone away, which I find, which I find fascinating.
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, okay. Um, have you noticed any other like, uh, in, in, in terms of like risk aversion, does the data say anything on like kinda ethnic minorities versus like white people around like risk taking, risk aversion, that kind of stuff?
23. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yes. So, um, for countries like the US and the UK, um, people of color do tend to be less risk averse than white men. Um, and there we see-
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Less risk averse?
25. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Um, less... Sorry, more risk averse.
26. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, okay. Yeah.
27. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Thank you for the correction. More risk averse as compared to white men. Um, but the male female divide still stands there.
28. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
29. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So for example, if you were to compare white women to Black men-
30. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
52:40 – 57:49
Why do we procrastinate?
1. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  about the same size as yours. Um, and I, and that, and if, if somebody asks for a raise and they're successful-
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
3. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... I think about who are the people who are very like them in the group-
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
5. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... who deserve a raise as well, and I just give it to them.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh.
7. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So instead of, you know-
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Transparency. [laughs]
9. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah. Because I, I-
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
11. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... and I also review, so I-
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
13. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... and I'm only doing it annually, and I think annually is probably enough to kind of really think about, uh, performance. So doing it quarterly is, is even better, I guess.
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
15. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Um, but I think by doing it annually you give everybody the same door to come to you. Um, they can ask for what they want, but then just being mindful who didn't ask.
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
17. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Because again, you know, there's kind of two things that w- it, it's not about necessarily you being kind of fair or being seen to be open. People might have had bad experiences in previ- previous jobs where they don't necessarily feel will- willing to speak up. And just by saying, "I'm doing this every year, and then I'm gonna review what I've decided to give, and I might come to people and, and, and give them raises," I think builds trust in a team at, at, at, at the smaller level, which will pay dividends, which when you scale, which I, and I use the word when 'cause I'm sure you will now that you're not going to-
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Forget about that
19. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... America. [laughs]
20. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. [laughs] Um, so chapter four of the book is all about time, and, um, you mentioned something earlier in the conversation that I wanted to ask you about. Um, you said behavioral science looks at things like why do we procrastinate.
21. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Uh, which is a question that I get like from every, every direction. Um, why, why do we procrastinate?
23. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  It's a really good question, and I think in some ways by writing about procrastination I make a rod for my own back 'cause I am a terrible, terrible, terrible procrastinator.
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
25. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  I think there's evidence that procrastination is good up to a certain point. So Adam Grant has, has written about this. He has an excellent Ted Talk for anyone who's interested, um, and kind of the idea of pre-crastination. So if we think about our thinking styles, we have two thinking styles. Very, very fast, impulsive. It's where your habits are built, where you're trying to get your small steps embedded, and then very, very slow and very, very deliberate. And those classifications are owned to a mi- are owed to a man called Danny Kahneman. And everyone really then came to believe that actually when you're in the slow mode of thinking, that you are at your best. So you get to be in flow, you get to concentrate on something. But there's an emerging evidence that when you're in your fast mode of thinking you have this unconscious that could be worming away at a problem that you're trying to solve. So let's imagine that you're trying to think about what you wanna do-
26. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
27. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... in five years' time. Maybe one of the best things that you can do is to take your focus off it and kinda put it to the back of your mind, and some t- thoughts will actually come out. And I think procrastination is good in that respect if you're saying, "Actually, I've a really big challenge at the moment. I'm- I'm not feeling creative. I'm gonna go for a walk."
28. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
29. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  That feels like a procrastination activity, but you take the challenge with you.
30. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
57:49 – 1:00:00
To-do lists & weekly reviews
1. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  option. So as human beings, we don't like to take the extremes when it comes to kinda making choices. Um, so I use this for my workload. So kind of in the morning, if I'm planning on doing something like writing where there's a particular output, I'll define what a low output looks like, define what a medium output looks like, and define what a high output looks like. And regardless of which one I'll hit-
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
3. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... I'll mark it off on my to-do list, so I give myself that kind of satisfaction. Um, and most of the time, and I often say this, maybe I'm just an average person, most of the time I hit medium, and I've tried it on some friends now, and they hit this medium output as well. So I think if you're somebody who has this mammoth task, and this really aligns with chunking, right? Think about what the outputs would look like beyond I need to do X. Dividing X down and giving yourself a treat at the end of it, so whatever it is for you, whether it's- it's, you know, Netflix, having a massage, going for a walk, going out for dinner with friends. Bundling it with something that's really attractive is another way to actually get you to, get you to the desk again. So really w- our decision-making is determined by costs and benefits in the present moment. You wanna lower the costs in the present moment, and you wanna make the benefits as nice as possible, and bundling with good activities helps as well.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Nice. How- how do you manage your to-do list? Like, yeah.
5. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  It's a great question. I mean, again, I- I make it off my own back by talking about this, but it's my struggles that has made me write about actually-
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
7. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... writing to-do lists. So every day I have, um, a period of time in the morning where I do deep work, where I do writing, where I do kind of tasks that really, really need to be done. Um, so this morning I was actually preparing something for the skills committee that you mentioned, um, in the beginning. Um, and then I go about my day f- do... having engagements with people like you, you know, h- kind of having kind of enjoyable engagements. So I really do the horrible part first, and then I have the nicer part of my day that actually comes later. So it's hard for me, it's hard to get an appointment with me before 10:00-
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
9. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... and that's because my mornings is for my, is for my deep work. At the end of the evening, I do, um... I look back on w- on how I spent my day. I think about what went right because I'm- I'm really bad for seeing kind of small wins during the day. Um, and I reflect on each activity and think about, actually, did this activity, did I enjoy it in the moment, and was it something that would pay off in the future? And if it's something that's neither,
1:00:00 – 1:03:06
Affect Heuristic
1. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  I try to avoid it or cut it all together. And- and I write about meetings in my, in my institution that I don't go to a lot of them now for that exact reason. So I just find myself showing up. People would talk in circles about issues. Nothing would be resolved. We would waste maybe two hours that could be used on something that's giving me purpose-
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
3. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... or someone else purpose, um, or giving me fun in the day.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. That's interesting. Do you do any sort of weekly review type stuff?
5. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yes. Um, every Sunday evening, I look back at how I actually spent my time during the week, um, and days where things went well and where- and days where things did not ne- necessarily go well, and then I think about the week ahead and how I can make it better for myself. So if I've had a particularly draining week and the activities are things that I need to show up for, that can include scheduling more free time in the week going forward. So it doesn't actually always mean about getting more work done the next week if- if I felt quite exhausted and I didn't feel that I was able to show up. Um, it also can mean that I think about what are the activities that I might wanna put out on my calendar given my experiences in the last week, um, that mightn't actually be adding value for anybody. Um, and it also allows me to think about what are the big things that I wanna ch- check off my list in- in the, in the week going forward.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. So I've, uh, so I first, uh, came across weekly review stuff like five years ago when I first read Getting Things Done by David Allen.
7. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yes.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  And in that time I've done about four weekly reviews. [laughs]
9. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs]
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, how, how... Any tips for sticking to this practice?
11. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  You need to make it easy. So I'm not a journaler.
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
13. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So I do all of this on my phone. So I basically have, my diary is set up and I have kinda two columns that say, "This was pleasurable. This was purposeful," that I just fill in. So my entire journaling on a Sunday evening is 15 to 20 minutes.
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
15. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And I think that the, the reason that we fall off the wagon with journaling is if we're carrying around notebooks, we're carrying around pens, it's not really how, how we kind of are set up as a society anymore, and we're th- thinking that it's gonna take one hour and two hours. So it's really about making it simple and doing it out of time. So I do a Sunday night. Uh, people w- who have read Think Big, um, who've reported back are using it on commutes-
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm
17. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... and using it on times that otherwise would, would not necessarily be used for anything useful.
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, okay. That's interesting. I spend a lot of time on the toilet scrolling Twitter, so maybe like-
19. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  That could be that
20. AAAli Abdaal
  ... a Sunday s-
21. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs]
22. AAAli Abdaal
  ... a Sunday toilet time equals weekly review-
23. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs]
24. AAAli Abdaal
  ... on my phone. Keep it simple.
25. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  That will go viral. [laughs]
26. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. [laughs]
27. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  You should.
28. AAAli Abdaal
  Something like that. Um-
29. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs]
30. AAAli Abdaal
  What is the effect affect heuristic?
1:03:06 – 1:05:45
Caring what other people think
1. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  if you think about yourself when we think and the affect heuristic, the kind of, the outcome is you should never make a decision when you're feeling emotional. So if somebody e- expresses anger towards you, if you're feeling angry towards them-
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm
3. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... if they're asking you for a decision, park it.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
5. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  You know, unless you're a surgeon, a firefighter, or somebody else who really needs to spring into action, there is always time for you to take a break. It could be a minute, it could be 10 minutes, it could be an hour, but taking that time out. And then on the other side, if you're facing people who are judging you, what can you think about their emotions in, in, in a, on a particular day that will tip the odds to your advantage? So making them laugh is, is a really good thing. Using narrative that actually, that they're likely to remember, so making them feel sad and empathetic towards what you're trying to sell them is really, really helpful. And again, avoiding being before lunch. So hunger-
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm
7. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... is absolutely the worst thing that you want in somebody [laughs] who's making a decision on your, on your future.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, okay.
9. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs]
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. So I'm, uh, I'm doing a, an interview with someone who's applied for a job with our team straight after this, uh, and I'm feeling kinda hungry now, so I should probably just take us out to lunch and, [laughs] and then we'll-
11. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yes, have a snack
12. AAAli Abdaal
  ... we'll do the interview over, over a snack or something.
13. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Brilliant.
14. AAAli Abdaal
  That's a good shout. Um, s- so in ch- chapter five, I think you talk about outside, uh... Well, in chapter four was inside, chapter five is, I think it's outside, like, um, getting feedback and judgment and stuff from other people.
15. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, one area in particular that I know a lot of people struggle with, like is the fear of being judged by others when doing things like putting themselves out there or writing a book or starting a YouTube channel. Does... What does behavioral science say about this thing of getting over this fear of what other people think about us/ is it good that we worry about what other people think about us?
17. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  I think, you know, it's good until it's not, which isn't, which isn't a very helpful expression.
18. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
19. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  But I think it's good in the beginning 'cause I think the kinda anxieties and the nerves that we feel set us up to do a great job, right? So, um, I think it was Mick Jagger before he was going on, on conscious use actually label his nerves, "Oh, this is the excitement about me seeing the crowd" rather than it actually feeling that the butterflies in his stomach-
20. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm
21. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... were anything negative. And reframing it that way can be, can be, can be really, really helpful. Um, I'm actually forgetting your question. My brain-
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Um, fear of getting, uh, getting over what other people think about us.
23. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Oh, yes. So I, as individuals, we tend to think people are looking at us much more often than they actually are. Um, and there's, uh, Thomas Gilovich was the first to write about this idea of the spotlight effect.
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
25. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And the spotlight effect basically says that if I fluff up, if I fall down in the street, if I do a bad public speaking, even if I do a negative YouTube and I have lots and lots of followers, the chances of people remembering are actually really, really low because we're information overloaded
1:05:45 – 1:12:13
Environment
1. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  all the time, and we're also much more caught up in ourselves than we are with other people. But even the people who do remember tend to be much more sympathetic or neutral than we actually give them credit for. So embracing the spotlight effect and actually taking action kind of safe in the knowledge that, you know, if you do mess up, people probably aren't watching, and if they do, they're likely to be sympathetic, is a really, really good way forward. And I think next to that, for people who are really hampered by, you know, kind of the saving face effects that we, I recorded from, from an Irish perspective, that, you know, the idea that it's much worse for me to mess up when other people are looking, I think start doing things where people who you don't know won't see you in the beginning, and then you'll get some confidence and be able to go a bit more global. So taking those small steps rather than staying stuck is really, really important.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm. Yeah. Both of these like tie in really nicely with like, you know, when it comes to starting a YouTube channel, which is quite a, a terrifying thing for a lot of people. I think like when I, when I did it, I made like 20 videos before I posted it on Facebook because that was the audience, people that knew me. And before then, like no one was gonna see it 'cause I had like three subscribers and like no one's ever gonna find the videos. Um, but then, you know, the advice I, I often, I often give to people when they're really worried that, "Oh, what, what, what will my friends and family think?" Is that, A, they probably won't care. They'll look at it for 30 seconds and move on with their day because they-
3. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
4. AAAli Abdaal
  ... they've got things to do. But B, like, you know, if, if your friends and family are like nice people, they'd be like, "Oh, this is, this is kinda cool."
5. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  They'll love you anyway. Yeah.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. Like [laughs] it's-
7. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs]
8. AAAli Abdaal
  ... the, the fear is so much more in our heads, in our imagination than it is, than it is in reality. Um, your, one of your final chapters is all about environment-
9. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
10. AAAli Abdaal
  ... and things that we can do in our environment to nudge ourselves towards kind of making progress on our, on our, I think, big goals. I wonder what tips have you found personally useful in terms of the way you set up your environment to help do things like write a book or, like, do your research and things like that?
11. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Well, I see you have the green, which is really good.
12. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
13. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So one of the kind of-
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
15. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... you know, if you're, if you're in a place where you don't have, uh, you know, kind of easy access to kind of green spaces, bringing green indoors is really, really helpful. It's, it's, it's really good for o-
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
17. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... it's really good. It's good for oxygen. So yeah, so there's a big, a a big tick in, in, in, in, in the environment today. But, you know, for me, I think the biggest thing is, is, is digital-
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
19. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... and really thinking about what's your relationship like with technology, and is that the biggest time sinker that you have? And then setting up your environment to make it much easier for you to switch off from technology when you need it. So, you know, I, my job, it would be much harder to do my job if I didn't have access to technology, so I'm a big proponent of it. I can get information really, really quickly. It's very easy for me to digest lots of academic papers now-
20. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
21. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  ... as well as a lot of, uh, kind of, uh, thought leaders. But that said, if that's all I do, then I never put any output into the world. Um, and my worst habit is checking email. For other people it would be Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, whatever it is. But thinking about, is there a way that you can change your environment to make it harder for you? Because it's all about cost benefits. It can make it harder for you to check your email, to check Twitter, to check Snapchat.
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
23. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Um, and for me, it was actually removing it from my phone, um, and from moving it from my laptop and putting it on an old iPad, allowing myself to check my emails on an old iPad that was in a different part of the house. So every time I wanted to check my emails, I had to physically go to that part of the house. And I also set up pledges that I would only check my emails twice a day, and then move to once a day. Um, and I will tell you, I failed a lot. So, you know, there would be lunchtime where I would be itching to see, oh, is anyone emailing me? What's exciting in my inbox? Um, and I would go and check, but it was much less, and I've never been more productive in the periods of my life when I've managed to switch off my email entirely.
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. That's a good chat. I should [laughs] ... I'll just delete my email app from my phone.
25. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs]
26. AAAli Abdaal
  I'm just thinking about how much time I would save.
27. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  [laughs]
28. AAAli Abdaal
  'Cause often, like, the stuff, like, it doesn't really need, need a response-
29. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  It doesn't
30. AAAli Abdaal
  ... here and now. And one thing you often say in the book is, you know, unless you're a heart surgeon or the president of some country-
1:12:13 – 1:27:08
Quick fire questions
1. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  increases.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm. Yeah. I think with the bedroom thing as well, I think, uh, in, in Why We Sleep, uh, Matthew Walker talks about this, that-
3. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  That's a great book
4. AAAli Abdaal
  ... when, when your bedroom is just for sleeping, it is easier to sleep and you get better sleep. [laughs]
5. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Whereas if your bedroom is also where you chill on your laptop and where you work-
7. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
8. AAAli Abdaal
  ... and it might be nice to take a Zoom call from your bedroom, but, like, you're kind of shafting yourself-
9. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
10. AAAli Abdaal
  ... in terms of sleep.
11. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  And again, it's really hard. You know, you can imagine there might be people who are listening, who are, their bedroom is their space.
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
13. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So they're living in, in, in, in a, in a city where their bedroom is just their space. But again, in the corner of that, there can be a chair where you physically go to sit, you open your laptop, and that's the trigger for your brain, actually, now I check emails. But when you're in your bed, that's just for sleeping. So even that small separation is enough to build really good habits to make you more productive and happier.
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Amazing. Um, I have a bunch of random quick-fire questions. Well, q- quick i-
15. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Oh, wow, I love those
16. AAAli Abdaal
  ... in that, in that the questions are quick, but the answers don't, don't, don't have to be. Um, so I wonder if we can just kind of blitz through those. I guess q- question one is what, what advice would you give for your younger self?
17. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  I think it would be to, to think big, um, to take small steps. [laughs]
18. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
19. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Build the future you want. I like that. I'll leave it at that. [laughs]
20. AAAli Abdaal
  That's good [laughs] Um, who's had the biggest influence on your career?
21. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Uh, my mom actually.
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
23. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So when I think back, I wasn't particularly good at school, and I wasn't a student that was actually meant to go to university, and she was really adamant that I go to education. Um, and I studied computer science, and I've pivoted a lot from there, but I still use some of the skills, so I still work, I still work in, in, in data science. But without her, I wouldn't have gotten anywhere.
24. AAAli Abdaal
  What's your top tip for someone looking for success?
25. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Really embed good habits today that will serve your version of success in the future. So the small actions that you're taking today, what are you, what are the, what, what are you doing today?
26. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
27. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  So, you know, how are you spending your time, and does that point you in the direction of success? And if the answer is no, change how you spend your time.
28. AAAli Abdaal
  Just on that note, um, your own definition of success. Um, I think often when we think of, like, I don't really like the word success because it's, it, it's so tied up in societal expectations-
29. GLDr. Grace Lordan
  Yeah
30. AAAli Abdaal
  ... where, like, you know, if I really enjoy gardening and I'm gardening in my backyard, society doesn't consider that successful unless I enter a gardening competition and win it.