How To Start A Business In 48 Hours - Noah Kagan

Noah Kagan 0:00 Every rejection is just a test if you want something

Ali Abdaal 0:02 Ooh, every rejection is just a test if you want something

Noah Kagan 0:04 100%. And so when she rejected me, I was like, "Yeah, I want this book." There's nothing else out there like it that helps you overcome your fear and helps you get the business actually started and then growing. I wrote a blog post for Tim Ferriss's site in 2011

Ali Abdaal 0:15 Damn, old school. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 0:16 Super old school

Ali Abdaal 0:17 Yeah

Noah Kagan 0:17 ... and it was, like, how to start a million-dollar business in a weekend. And it went super viral. I've seen that literally so many people holds them back from success in business and in life is the fear of asking. If you don't start, you'll never get anywhere. And if you don't ask, you'll never get what you want. No ask, no get.

Ali Abdaal 0:30 Bloody hell, that's good shit.

Noah Kagan 0:31 Where most people are and where they can be is actually closer than they think. Where they are and where they actually wanna be is closer than they think. Who they are and who they think they could be is closer than they think, but they have to start.

Ali Abdaal 0:41 But wait, what do you mean everyone should be an entrepreneur? That's a pretty hot take.

Noah Kagan 0:43 It is the best investment you can ever make. That's part one. And part two is it's the best way to learn about yourself, and I don't know any other way to get that.

Ali Abdaal 0:50 Mate, I love this.

Noah Kagan 0:51 I believe money can buy happiness.

Ali Abdaal 0:52 Ooh, hot take.

Noah Kagan 0:53 Yeah, I know.

Ali Abdaal 0:53 Hot take coming. It's gonna get spicy.

Ali Abdaal 0:57 Noah, welcome to Deep Dive. How you doing?

Noah Kagan 1:00 Excellent.

Ali Abdaal 1:01 Fantastic. Um, for people who might not know who you are, can you give us a quick blitz intro, who is Noah Kagan-

Noah Kagan 1:06 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:06 ... and how did we end up getting to know each other?

Noah Kagan 1:08 How did we end up here, man? Um, grew up in the Bay Area, was... worked at a cubicle monkey over at Intel, and then I kept starting all these businesses, and I was number 30 at Facebook. So I was very fortunate to work directly for Zuckerberg. Got fired, which is a pretty f- popular story. Uh, and then I went to help start mint.com. I was number four there. They sold for 200 million. And then I basically tried and failed so many different times starting all these other businesses until 2010, I started AppSumo.com, uh, number one site online for software deals. We basically promote software deals for solopreneurs, so people with small businesses. Uh, today we're gonna do around $80 million in revenue-

Ali Abdaal 1:42 Wow

Noah Kagan 1:42 ... bootstrapped, and then, uh, have a YouTube channel, uh, where I help underdogs. It's the people we help to inspire them on their business journeys. And yeah, just wrote a book, Million Dollar Weekend, to help other people have their own business journeys and success.

Ali Abdaal 1:55 Okay. I have so much to talk to you about.

Noah Kagan 1:56 All right.

Ali Abdaal 1:56 Um, so we actually did... We first, I think, officially spoke in the pandemic three years ago when you were on a Deep Dive live stream on my channel.

Noah Kagan 2:03 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 2:04 And there were like a few hundred to a couple thousand people watching that, and we heard all about the Facebook firing story, all about the mint.com.

Noah Kagan 2:10 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 2:10 So I just wanna sort of... I kind of wanna assume people have already seen that because I wanna launch straight into some, some new stuff that you've been working on. How does that sound?

Noah Kagan 2:18 Yeah, I mean, it's, it, it is interesting 'cause I think we think everyone's heard these stories, and then sometimes you're like, "Oh, there, there's new people in these audiences."

Ali Abdaal 2:24 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 2:24 And it was, it was special 'cause I... Part of the, you know, The Million Dollar Weekend is, like, connecting with pre-fluencers. And I remember someone on my team was like, "There's this guy, Ali Abdaal. His, his show's, like, getting started, but he seems really interesting." And that was Mitchell on our team. He, he sent me-

Ali Abdaal 2:36 Yeah

Noah Kagan 2:37 ... your channel, and that's kinda how we started connecting.

Ali Abdaal 2:38 Yeah, 'cause he replied to one of my newsletters. He was like... It was like Mitchell at AppSumo, and I was like-

Noah Kagan 2:42 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 2:42 ... "Oh, man." Because I'd been following your podcast in, like, 2017, '18-

Noah Kagan 2:45 Yeah, a little while

Ali Abdaal 2:46 ... like that kind of era. And then I was like, "Oh, someone on Noah Kagan's team watch... read, reads my newsletter. That's pretty cool."

Noah Kagan 2:51 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 2:52 And that's how we got connected, and now we're mates.

Noah Kagan 2:53 We are mates. And I just remember meeting with you, and I was just blown away by, like... I was writing down all the things w- you were talking about. I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do that."

Ali Abdaal 2:59 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 3:00 Like, I still use Bear app.

Ali Abdaal 3:01 Oh, nice.

Noah Kagan 3:01 And I was just like, I don't know, I was just like this guy's impressive. There's something interesting happening with you. And what is it now, like five, three years later?

Ali Abdaal 3:07 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 3:07 Almost four years later.

Ali Abdaal 3:08 Yeah. So we've both gone-

Noah Kagan 3:09 Now we're here

Ali Abdaal 3:09 ... interesting places. Um,

Ali Abdaal 3:11 why is the title of your book Million Dollar Weekend? What's going on there?

Noah Kagan 3:14 The... Taking a step back, uh, I wrote a blog post for Tim Ferriss's site in 2011.

Ali Abdaal 3:20 Damn, old school. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 3:21 Super old school.

Ali Abdaal 3:22 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 3:22 And it was just how I started all these businesses and how other people can copy my formula, and it was, like, how to start a million-dollar business in a weekend. And it went super viral. And then, um, fast-forward today, you know, the title is just, like, Million Dollar Weekend. Anytime we mentioned to people, it's like, "Oh, that's good." Um, and so the idea was just, like, how do you get something started in a very short amount of time? Blog post worked, we validate it, and now the title is, uh, what people, people like.

Ali Abdaal 3:45 So broadly, kind of, pe- people can obviously read the book, and they should read the book to zoom in and find out all the details.

Noah Kagan 3:50 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 3:50 But what's, what's the big picture here? How, how would I start a million-dollar business in a weekend?

Noah Kagan 3:54 Clearly it would be in a-

Ali Abdaal 3:55 What, what do I have to do? [laughs]

Noah Kagan 3:56 It would be in a hotel room like we're in now.

Ali Abdaal 3:57 Exactly, yeah. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 3:58 [laughs] I mean, I think what's interesting is that there's so many... There's so much content about how to start a business.

Ali Abdaal 4:03 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 4:03 TikTok, social media, blogs, books. Like, if there's so much out there, how come people have not done it that wanna do it?

Ali Abdaal 4:11 That-

Noah Kagan 4:11 That's the question. And so 15 years ago, I had a dream to write this book. I was with my buddy Adam Gilbert from My Body Tutor, and we were biking New York, and I was like, there's just no book out there that if I wanted to get started without taking funding, without spending a lot of time, without spending any money, there's nothing out there. And so I wanted to be able to put that together and, and solve the actual hard problem, which is why aren't people being successful?

Ali Abdaal 4:30 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 4:30 And there's basically just two fears why most of the audiences that wanna start a business, which I think everyone should be an entrepreneur, have not done it yet. And then the business part is the other har- half of the book, which is, like, how do you validate your idea? How do you check the market size? How do you check your one-minute business model? That part I find a lot easier. It's just the fears that are holding people back from their success.

Ali Abdaal 4:48 Ooh, okay, this is interesting, 'cause I also encounter this problem a lot when I speak to people who wanna start a YouTube channel or wanna start a business, and I'm often surprised by how much of the conversation is, like, therapy/emotional support-

Noah Kagan 4:58 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 4:58 ... rather than like, "Okay, let's figure out the target market and the competitive analysis and all that stuff."

Noah Kagan 5:02 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 5:03 What are the fears? You, you said there were two big fears?

Noah Kagan 5:05 Yeah. And so in terms of the business, and we can definitely dive into, like, checking your business model, checking the market size, finding your first customers-

Ali Abdaal 5:12 Yeah

Noah Kagan 5:12 ... and then how do you scale that stuff to-

Ali Abdaal 5:13 Yeah, like, let's start with the emotional stuff.

Noah Kagan 5:14 Yeah, we'll come back to the, the-

Ali Abdaal 5:15 Yeah, we'll come back to the, the-

Noah Kagan 5:16 This stuff is-

Ali Abdaal 5:17 ... nuts and bolts

Noah Kagan 5:17 ... and it... This stuff no one recognizes how, how afraid they actually are, uh, of this. They won't admit it 'cause they don't realize it. They don't even recognize it. But the two ones, and they're gigantic, once you overcome them, and there's fun ways to actually overcome it, and a lot of people in the book have done it, then all the other business stuff is easy. And so the first one is the fear of starting.

Ali Abdaal 5:34 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 5:35 And so the idea that we need more money, I need to watch more videos, I need to take another course, I need to find out more things to then feel ready, and there's never a ready. The ri- the ready time is right now. Just like you talk actually in Feel-Good Productivity, it's like get going. Get, go get your confidence through your action. And then the second fear that I have, uh, you see a lot on my YouTube channel, but I've, I've seen that literally so many people holds them back from success in business and in life is the fear of asking

Ali Abdaal 6:01 Ooh

Noah Kagan 6:01 It's the fear of asking

Ali Abdaal 6:02 Yeah

Noah Kagan 6:02 And so if you don't start, you'll never get anywhere, and if you don't ask, you'll never get what you want. No ask, no get. You have to go figure out, how do I practice asking? 'Cause it's a skill, and it's a skill I, I've seen as a kid, it's a skill I've practiced at, you know, through all the millions of dollars we've done through AppSumo and through all the other businesses I've been a part of. And so how to do it in fun ways so that when you get to the business stuff you're like, "Yeah, I'm a starter. I'm a starter. I do things right now not how." That's like one of the big takeaways in the book.

Ali Abdaal 6:28 Right now not how.

Noah Kagan 6:28 And then moving in-

Ali Abdaal 6:29 Yeah. That's nice

Noah Kagan 6:29 ... yeah, and then moving into the asking so you can do challenges and things like that to make it fun, so that as you get into the business you're like, all right, I'm gonna s- you know, we can talk about different businesses that have been-

Ali Abdaal 6:36 Yeah

Noah Kagan 6:36 ... started from the book. Uh, it makes the, it starting the business a lot easier.

Ali Abdaal 6:41 One of the things that I remember talking about when we were doing a live stream three years ago, you said something about asking for discounts at Starbucks or something.

Noah Kagan 6:47 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 6:47 And I remember saying, "I'm literally sweating even just thinking about that." And after we had that conversation, I was... I think I was still working at the time.

Noah Kagan 6:54 You did it. You did it.

Ali Abdaal 6:54 And there was a Starbucks on the way home, on, on, on the way to work.

Noah Kagan 6:57 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 6:57 And I would, I would always say to myself, "You know, today's the day I'm gonna f- I'm gonna follow N- Noah's advice," which I think m- Tim Ferriss also talks about this at some point.

Noah Kagan 7:03 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 7:04 And I, I'd, I'd literally never done it before. I st- I still have to, to this day have not done it.

Noah Kagan 7:08 Oh, you didn't do it?

Ali Abdaal 7:08 No. I, I, I kept on chickening out. I'd go up to the counter, I'd be like, "Uh, mm, mm, uh, uh," and then, and then the fear, the fear of asking would get in the way.

Noah Kagan 7:16 What, what do you think you're afraid of?

Ali Abdaal 7:19 I don't know. Um, rejection. Uh, I'm afraid of like... I, I ca- I can tell myself that like, oh, you know, it's, it's, I don't wanna put them in an awkward position-

Noah Kagan 7:26 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 7:26 ... because it's like, you know, this poor barista, he's only getting paid $5 an hour or whatever the thing might be. I don't want him to feel awkward.

Noah Kagan 7:32 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 7:32 But really I think I'm just afraid of, afraid of the rejection.

Noah Kagan 7:35 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 7:35 And afraid of coming across as an inconvenience-

Noah Kagan 7:38 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 7:38 ... as a nuisance and stuff.

Noah Kagan 7:40 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 7:40 Does that vibe with what people told you?

Noah Kagan 7:42 That's m- that's why people have not had success in business yet, because they can't get comfortable asking, getting rejected, realizing it's okay. Maybe it was the offer. Maybe it's not the right person, and then moving forward to find someone you can help. And most of the time it's actually switching the context. So what you're thinking is it's a bad thing to ask.

Ali Abdaal 8:00 Mm.

Noah Kagan 8:00 But what if you ask for a sponsor for your show from Notion-

Ali Abdaal 8:03 Mm

Noah Kagan 8:03 ... and you help them promote?

Ali Abdaal 8:05 Mm.

Noah Kagan 8:05 You're just asking them for something. That's actually a good thing for them, and the more that you can actually switch that mentality, you're like, "Oh shit, I can start asking for a lot of different things." Maybe a raise, maybe a customer, maybe even ask a girlfriend. You know-

Ali Abdaal 8:15 Mm

Noah Kagan 8:15 ... there's all these other things you can start asking for, and the reason I love the coffee challenge is that it's a safe way to practice asking. They say no to you when you ask for... So when you go to a coffee place or anywhere you go next time... I did it at the hotel room this, uh, about an hour ago. Got to the hotel front desk and said, "Can I have an upgrade please for free?" And he looks at me like, "What are you doing?" I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "No, it costs money." It's like, "Okay, thanks."

Ali Abdaal 8:35 [laughs]

Noah Kagan 8:35 Right? It's, it's, it's, it... I'm still doing it to this day.

Ali Abdaal 8:38 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 8:38 And it's doing it in these small ways, you do it in business, but when you go and ask for the discount, it's just recognizing that once they say no, life goes forward, and you can learn and get better, and you get stronger. Will you, will you commit to doing it?

Ali Abdaal 8:50 Mate, I'm, I'm feeling, I'm feeling the shaking.

Noah Kagan 8:52 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 8:52 I'm like tearing up even just thinking, like hearing you, hearing, hearing you say this.

Noah Kagan 8:55 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 8:56 Like what you're saying is like touching a part of me that has this like primal fear of like rejection, I think.

Noah Kagan 9:01 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 9:01 Fear of rejection, fear of failure, all of those things.

Noah Kagan 9:03 We're all afraid of it. It doesn't go away. I'm still afraid, and if you look at my videos, it's like asking for private jets, knocking on people's doors, doing it on the streets, and I'm still afraid. One of the ways that may be helpful for you to think about it-

Ali Abdaal 9:14 Yeah

Noah Kagan 9:15 ... is doing like rejection goals.

Ali Abdaal 9:17 Mm.

Noah Kagan 9:17 So just changing the game to a game. So instead of making it this big ego hit-

Ali Abdaal 9:20 Yeah

Noah Kagan 9:21 ... 'cause like, yeah, I'm still afraid. I have anxiety doing these rejections and like-

Ali Abdaal 9:24 Yeah

Noah Kagan 9:24 ... going and doing it, but I'm like, all right, I'm gonna go and get rejected 10 times on the street.

Ali Abdaal 9:27 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 9:27 Or I'm gonna try to go and talk to like two people.

Ali Abdaal 9:29 Mm.

Noah Kagan 9:30 And then you do it and it's like, okay, I hit my goal. That's fine. And guess what? Throughout that you might actually get a yes. Throughout that you might get a discount. Throughout that you might get a customer. And so again, take, coming back to it's like how do I get, how do I practice starting? And then if I can get better at asking, now let me start moving forward on these different business ideas, whether it's creating content, maybe it's a service, maybe it's e-commerce, whatever that is.

Ali Abdaal 9:50 Bloody hell. That's good

Ali Abdaal 9:51 shit. I think one of the, one of the big areas in which I struggled, and to this day still do, is, uh, sales.

Noah Kagan 9:57 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 9:58 Because before j- just before launching my course three years ago, the YouTuber Academy, I had this real fear of selling thing. I was like, "No, I can't, I can't be seen to be selling-

Noah Kagan 10:05 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 10:05 ... something 'cause selling is bad." Like I guess that's-

Noah Kagan 10:08 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 10:08 ... another thing you've, you've dealt with. How do, how, how, how do people think about selling being bad and like how might we think about it instead?

Noah Kagan 10:14 Yeah. I... So with AppSumo.com, we have to go to a partner and say, "We're gonna promote your product for free, and we'll split the money with you." I think of selling as helping. You're, you have an association that selling is a bad experience.

Ali Abdaal 10:26 Mm.

Noah Kagan 10:27 I'm thinking like if I'm going to Ali and I say, "Hey, you have a product I can put you on AppSumo," I'm like, wow, I'm actually doing you a favor 'cause I believe it's good for you. Now, when you're doing selling, I think there's, there's a simple formula called LOT. It's listen, options, transition. And this is just a nice way that when you're talking to someone you could sell.

Ali Abdaal 10:41 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 10:41 So we'll do a, a practice thing.

Ali Abdaal 10:43 Sure.

Noah Kagan 10:43 If you were... What is something you sold? Your course?

Ali Abdaal 10:45 Uh, yeah, like our YouTuber course.

Noah Kagan 10:47 So first listen to your customer. Uh, are you interested in growing YouTube?

Ali Abdaal 10:50 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 10:50 How come you're interested in growing your YouTube?

Ali Abdaal 10:51 Oh, 'cause I've seen channels like Ali Abdaal and Noah Kagan succeed-

Noah Kagan 10:54 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 10:54 ... and I know it's the sort of thing that could change my life, and yeah, I just like the idea of doing it.

Noah Kagan 10:57 And then if I w- if you were to get my course, like what would you hope to get out of it?

Ali Abdaal 11:00 Um, I know that you've kind of grown on YouTube a lot over the last few years, and I'd be hoping to learning some... I'd, I'd be hoping to learn what are, what's the secret sauce here? Like, what do you know that other people don't?

Noah Kagan 11:10 And then what, what would be an outcome? So like if you were able to take my course, what would be success for you and, and why would that matter to you?

Ali Abdaal 11:15 Ooh. Um, I mean, if I could get to the point where I'm making enough money to quit my day job, then that would be amazing for my life.

Noah Kagan 11:22 Nice. And, and how much money would you want to quit your day job?

Ali Abdaal 11:24 Oh, I think if I was making like 3K a month I'd be able to quit my day job.

Noah Kagan 11:27 And we'll talk about the freedom number, by the way. That's a, a separate thing, uh, that's been critical in shifting people's lives to be able to get their own million dollar weekend. So if I hear you right, it sounds like if you want help on YouTube... And what's been holding you back from success on YouTube?

Ali Abdaal 11:40 Mm. I f- I honestly, I really struggle with consistency.

Noah Kagan 11:44 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 11:44 And I make a video, uh, and then I w- have all these perfectionistic tendencies-

Noah Kagan 11:49 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 11:49 ... and I don't wanna release it, and I feel this ick every time I see the video, and I'm like-

Noah Kagan 11:52 Got it

Ali Abdaal 11:52 ... uh, it's, it's not quite, it's not quite right, it's not quite perfect.

Noah Kagan 11:54 Got it.

Ali Abdaal 11:55 And that means I only release three videos even though I want, been wanting to start YouTube for five years.

Noah Kagan 11:59 Yeah. So you've been talking about it, and this is something that maybe you can do it in, in a month or in, in this week and change your life. So it sounds like if I hear you right- You wanna work on consistency and you wanna be able to make $3,000 a month. So if there's a course that can help you accomplish those things and it was only $500, how does that sound to you?

Ali Abdaal 12:17 I mean, that sounds pretty good, but, like, I'd wanna know... I mean, surely the course can't guarantee that I'm gonna get to that goal, right?

Noah Kagan 12:23 Yeah. So if you pay today, I will guarantee within six months you will get your $3,000 and you will be consistent, and if not, I'll give you your money back.

Ali Abdaal 12:30 Oh.

Noah Kagan 12:30 If that's something you wanna sign up for right now.

Ali Abdaal 12:32 Yeah, 100%, sign me up. [laughs] Okay, interesting.

Noah Kagan 12:35 So as... If we take a step back and, like, break down the scenarios, what I'm trying to really do is listen. The option that I think is solving... So when I'm listening, I'm trying to get what's, what's Ali's real problem?

Ali Abdaal 12:43 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 12:44 And then I also wanna understand what it's worth to you, right? Your freedom number, which is a number that I believe everyone needs to figure out, is what's the number you need to be able to do your own business, to, to be able to quit your job?

Ali Abdaal 12:54 Mm.

Noah Kagan 12:54 Mine was $3,000. So I'm trying to understand your, your, your pain of it. I'm trying to understand the, like, what's held you back and the value to it, and then options. Like, okay, so I understand your pain. Here's the option that will solve it. Does that solve it? You're like, "Yeah." Then I transition.

Ali Abdaal 13:06 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 13:07 "I'd like to get your money today [laughs] in a way that will get you the result, 'cause I'm solving the problem that you have."

Ali Abdaal 13:12 Okay.

Noah Kagan 13:13 And then what people will do, here's what... This is the, this is the, the big, like, red flag timeout. "Yeah, yeah, send me more info."

Ali Abdaal 13:19 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 13:19 "Oh, yeah, yeah. I'll... You know, why don't you, um... I'll sign up when the, when the course is ready. Yeah, yeah, I'll do that." And so that's a rejection. And the more that we remember came back practicing rejection, you're like, "Okay, so tell me what would make this a no-brainer for you today. Can you edu-" I just love... This is one of my favorite lines. "I love to learn. Can you just tell me why you're not signing up today?" "Oh, I'm not signing up because I don't have the money right now. I have this amount of money." Okay, so if we had a payment plan where you could do $10 a month, and every month you're able to pay it off, does that, does that work for you? Or only pay if you... Pay half now and half on success. So it's more how are you trying to understand the person to be able to transition them to success for themselves.

Ali Abdaal 13:56 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 13:56 And a lot of times not selling is powerful. Like, "Hey, I don't think this is right for you."

Ali Abdaal 14:00 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 14:00 "I don't think I can help you." That's just as powerful as making the sale.

Ali Abdaal 14:03 Hmm. Okay. So kind of reframing the way we think of selling rather than being a, a bad thing that I am making an ask-

Noah Kagan 14:10 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 14:10 ... or, like, making an offer, r- instead of it being a bad thing, as being like thinking of it in terms of I've got the option of helping this person out.

Noah Kagan 14:20 It's a great... You're helping.

Ali Abdaal 14:21 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 14:21 You're helping. I think it's awesome. Like, I truly w- like Million Dollar Weekend, my YouTube channel, AppSumo.com, I'm like, if you have a software company and you want customers, I, I truly believe it's my job to tell you about AppSumo.

Ali Abdaal 14:33 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 14:35 And if you don't, if it's not right for you, that's okay. But for someone who wants promotion, like, let me understand what your needs are, and if it aligns with what I can do, yeah, I'm gonna transition them to the next steps of the sale.

Ali Abdaal 14:43 What are some other ar- areas of life in which you have done or people that you know have done the asking thing and it's led to interesting outcomes?

Noah Kagan 14:50 Yeah, I mean, you look at some of my YouTube videos-

Ali Abdaal 14:53 Yeah

Noah Kagan 14:53 ... v- specifically, uh, I sat outside a private airport and I asked people if I could get on their private jet, and I got basically like a $100,000 flight to Boston.

Ali Abdaal 15:03 Okay.

Noah Kagan 15:03 That was a pretty good ask. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 15:04 That's cool. Yeah. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 15:05 You know? And that, what's crazy about that was that I only stood out there for about 10 minutes.

Ali Abdaal 15:08 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 15:09 I didn't, like, have anything flashy. It was just in- it's accessible for everyone. I think this is... There's a misconception that like, oh, because they have something or they did... No. I just stood outside with a piece of paper, normal clothes on, and just asked people like, "Hey, can I come see your plane? I'd love to see your plane." And the reality is that when you start asking for things, you realize that people are actually a lot friendlier than you think too.

Ali Abdaal 15:27 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 15:28 So a, a guy named Jake who wrote Million Dollar Weekend, he's, he's exactly what you said actually. He's been wanting to start his own business for two years, 24 months. He's done nothing.

Ali Abdaal 15:37 Mm.

Noah Kagan 15:37 Which is 99% of people.

Ali Abdaal 15:39 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 15:40 Right? It's the same thing in productivity, like they wanna do something, they wanna do something, but they don't do it.

Ali Abdaal 15:43 Mm.

Noah Kagan 15:43 And so I was like, "Jake, let's do something now not how. Let's just make sure we're going today. Let's just do it right now. Let's call someone with your business idea." I won't, I won't put out what his business idea is. It was around golf trips, and I'll leave it at that. "Let's call someone right now and see if they'll buy your, your golf trip." And he's, you know, it's like, he's like, "Oh, shit. Really?"

Ali Abdaal 16:02 Mm.

Noah Kagan 16:02 I'm like, "Yeah, let's do it right now." And he was shocked how friendly someone was and how excited they were to give him money.

Ali Abdaal 16:10 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 16:11 I know, b- but we have this fear like, oh, I'm bugging them-

Ali Abdaal 16:13 Yeah

Noah Kagan 16:14 ... I'm harassing them, and Jake was... That belief in him of what he's trying to offer was so exciting for these other people. And I have the same thing when I'm... I did another video where I asked first class passengers-

Ali Abdaal 16:26 Yeah. So that, that was gonna be-

Noah Kagan 16:27 Which, it's very uncomfortable because if you say no to me, you're sitting next to me for the next eight hours.

Ali Abdaal 16:31 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 16:31 [laughs] Which, uh, most of the people said no.

Ali Abdaal 16:33 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 16:35 But we create this script in our head when we're doing things at this, about the other person that's just not true. 'Cause a lot of people I did talk to were actually excited and happy to chat with me. Like, there was a, an optometrist, there was a yoga teacher. There was just a lot of different people that actually were happy to share how they got to first class and how others can do the same.

Ali Abdaal 16:52 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 16:52 And that was just 'cause asking. That was just 'cause of an ask. It wasn't anything that... Where most people are and where they can be is actually closer than they think. Where they are and where they actually wanna be is closer than they think. Who they are and who they think they could be is closer than they think, but they have to start. You can't sit back, you can't watch more, you can't learn. There's no s- more to learn a lot of times. It's about getting going so you can get to that place.

Ali Abdaal 17:15 So we've talked about, talked about fear of asking. Um,

Ali Abdaal 17:18 can you tell me more about this fear of starting? Like if... W- w- with asking-

Noah Kagan 17:21 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 17:21 ... like I, I feel the fear of asking.

Noah Kagan 17:23 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 17:23 But I don't think I feel the fear of starting, but I'm, I'm sure... I, I, I know when it comes to YouTube, loads of people have that fear of starting.

Noah Kagan 17:29 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 17:30 What's it like in, in the business thing? Like what stories are people telling, telling themselves?

Noah Kagan 17:34 Most people tell themselves they're not ready.

Ali Abdaal 17:36 Okay.

Noah Kagan 17:36 They say they need, they don't have the right business idea. Have you ever talked to people like-

Ali Abdaal 17:39 Oh, yeah

Noah Kagan 17:39 ... you, you have your YouTube account. How many people say, "I don't have anything to talk about on YouTube"?

Ali Abdaal 17:42 Yeah, like 80% of them.

Noah Kagan 17:44 Most of the people.

Ali Abdaal 17:44 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 17:45 If they just started the YouTube channel today, right now, like if their dream is to be a YouTuber like, like we are, or maybe have an e-commerce business, or maybe it's a service business, or maybe whatever it is, it doesn't, and it doesn't have to be a millionaire. It could be a grocery-naire-

Ali Abdaal 17:55 Yeah

Noah Kagan 17:55 ... to make grocery money. It could be to make $100 so you can have a nice meal once a month. The whole opportunity is just getting going. And so what are ways that people can just get going and stop being sideliners, what I call them?

Ali Abdaal 18:07 Mm.

Noah Kagan 18:07 So one way to get going is your freedom number. Your freedom number is what you said, which y- what, what is your, what was your number where you felt comfortable quitting your, your medical job?

Ali Abdaal 18:16 Hmm. I fe- I felt comfortable taking a break when that number was, like, 10K a month.

Noah Kagan 18:21 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 18:21 I s- I felt comfortable quitting when that number was 100K a month. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 18:24 [laughs] That, that's, that's, that's another episode.

Ali Abdaal 18:27 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 18:27 That's a following episode.

Ali Abdaal 18:28 [laughs]

Noah Kagan 18:28 But thinking about-

Ali Abdaal 18:29 Yeah

Noah Kagan 18:29 ... okay, it's actually probably a lot smaller of a number to be able to quit my job and have freedom than I realize.

Ali Abdaal 18:35 Yeah. I, I realized, like, a lot of the thing, like, in, in reality, if I had a job that I didn't like, and I was able to make, I don't know, two or three K a month to pay my expenses and my rent and stuff-

Noah Kagan 18:45 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 18:45 ... that would be the perfect, the perfect number to be like, "You know what? Screw this. I'm gonna do my own thing."

Noah Kagan 18:50 Yeah. I mean-

Ali Abdaal 18:51 Yeah

Noah Kagan 18:51 ... it seemed risky to me to have a day job. It seemed not risky to start my own business.

Ali Abdaal 18:56 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 18:56 And everyone should be an entrepreneur, 'cause being, having money and the ability to, to work in hotel rooms or stay at home with your kid, which I'm looking forward to doing, I want that opportunity, and that's available for everyone. It's not exclusive. But you have to get started.

Ali Abdaal 19:08 Yeah. What do, uh, what do you mean everyone should be an entrepreneur? That's a pretty hot take.

Noah Kagan 19:12 I think everyone should be an entrepreneur. Being rich is great. I, I don't know if that's a hot take anymore.

Ali Abdaal 19:17 [laughs]

Noah Kagan 19:17 I don't know if you're allowed to say people should be rich or not rich, but I've been poor for a long time, and I've lived poor for a long time. And the reality that everyone, it's accessible to everyone to be rich. And being an entrepreneur is the best return on getting rich. Let's take, just, like, zoom back for a second.

Ali Abdaal 19:32 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 19:32 What's a great stock market return annually?

Ali Abdaal 19:35 The 8%.

Noah Kagan 19:36 Whoa.

Ali Abdaal 19:37 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 19:37 Okay. Real estate.

Ali Abdaal 19:38 Uh, 10% if you're lucky.

Noah Kagan 19:40 7 to 15%.

Ali Abdaal 19:40 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 19:40 And you have to put money down and all this stuff.

Ali Abdaal 19:42 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 19:42 Uh, T-bills or interest bills, 5%. What else?

Ali Abdaal 19:46 Government bonds.

Noah Kagan 19:47 Yeah, government bonds. I don't know what you guys have in the UK.

Ali Abdaal 19:49 These days, like 7%, previously 0%. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 19:51 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 19:51 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 19:52 Okay. Entrepreneurship.

Ali Abdaal 19:53 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 19:53 Unlimited.

Ali Abdaal 19:54 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 19:55 Not, not even saying books. I'm saying if you start your own business, there is literally no upside to what you can create.

Ali Abdaal 20:00 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 20:00 It is the best investment you can ever make, is starting your own business. And that's part one, and part two is it's the best way to learn about yourself. Learning how to start and being come- overcoming some of the fear you have, like what happens when my friends say no to my business?

Ali Abdaal 20:12 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 20:13 What happens that I, I start, it doesn't work, but I keep going, and I find that I have courage and I can do these things.

Ali Abdaal 20:18 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 20:18 Exactly. And you start realizing, like ... And I've learned more th- through business by myself than anything else, and you realize, like, I have a lot more capable, am a lot more able to do things than I realized.

Ali Abdaal 20:28 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 20:28 And I don't know any other way to get that, that I've seen that's as effective as, one, as a return on investment, but secondly, just as a return on yourself.

Ali Abdaal 20:36 What about people who say, you know, there, there'll be some people s- listening to this and think, "Screw this guy. Like, not everyone should be an entrepreneur."

Noah Kagan 20:42 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 20:43 "What if I like my day job, and I don't-"

Noah Kagan 20:45 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 20:45 "... wanna deal with the stress of being an entrepreneur, and I just wanna go home, go to work-"

Noah Kagan 20:48 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 20:48 "... collect the paycheck, and come home, and then spend time with my family?"

Noah Kagan 20:51 Yeah. I think they can do that and be an entrepreneur.

Ali Abdaal 20:53 Okay.

Noah Kagan 20:54 And to be an entrepreneur, it does- I think where there's a misconception is to become a millionaire, you have to make a dollar, and that's where people get hung up. To become a millionaire, you have to start with making $1. And everyone, by the way, can right now on their phone message someone to get a dollar.

Ali Abdaal 21:08 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 21:08 Just right now. Right now. Right now they can message someone. But to start, you have to get, to become a millionaire, which is what people are like, "Oh, I wanna be a millionaire." No, just get a dollar and get going, and that's how you become a millionaire, a multimillionaire, a billionaire. Now, to be an entrepreneur, I think where people have the misconception is, "Well, I need to make a lot of money to be an entrepreneur. I need to make millions or anything." No. You can make 100 bucks a month-

Ali Abdaal 21:27 Hmm

Noah Kagan 21:28 ... doing cookies. Like, there's a woman, Jennifer, who was at Million Dollar Weekend out in Dallas. She's a schoolteacher, and she's like, "I just wanna make a few extra dollars a month for my family." And so the ability to have creative control, the ability to, to create things with your hobbies and your free time, I think that's what people all should be doing.

Ali Abdaal 21:44 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 21:44 And if they don't like it, fine. You don't have to. But I think, one, you have a lot of upside with the money if that's what you want. As well, I think you're gonna learn more doing that than anything else.

Ali Abdaal 21:51 Oh, interesting. Okay. So you're defining... How, how are you defining entrepreneur then?

Noah Kagan 21:55 How do you define productivity? [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 21:57 I define productivity in a very holistic way. [laughs] Almost too holistic, some, some might say.

Noah Kagan 22:02 I, I think entrepreneur, in the simplest form-

Ali Abdaal 22:04 Yeah

Noah Kagan 22:04 ... hmm. I, I believe it's just cr- it's someone who creates.

Ali Abdaal 22:09 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 22:10 Someone who creates. So that doesn't mean it has to be making so much money. I think that's a big misconception of the more mentality we live in.

Ali Abdaal 22:16 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 22:17 Like, how many subscribers you want? More. How much money you want? More. How much food you want? More. It's like, no. Like, I want a little bit, and I'm okay with that, and that's amazing, a power of entrepreneurship that, that's accessible to anyone anywhere.

Ali Abdaal 22:27 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 22:27 Especially now. Now it's easier than ever to start a business.

Ali Abdaal 22:30 So would you say, like, you know, back, back when I was in school, I was freelancing as a web developer-

Noah Kagan 22:35 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 22:35 ... on the side. Does that count as entrepreneurship, or is that, like, a different kind of thing? Is that not what we're talking about here?

Noah Kagan 22:41 That's exactly what we're talking about.

Ali Abdaal 22:43 Okay.

Noah Kagan 22:43 I think it's expressing yourself, finding out who you are through business.

Ali Abdaal 22:47 Hmm. That's nice. I like that.

Noah Kagan 22:49 Yeah, it's great. I mean, and it's accessible to anyone.

Ali Abdaal 22:51 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 22:51 And it doesn't have to be, there's not a set way of doing it. Like, on my YouTube channel, there's a guy, Larry Janeski, he does $600 million a year with basements. With base- I don't, I've barely ever been in a basement.

Ali Abdaal 23:01 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 23:01 I don't know if you guys have them in the UK, but in California we don't. Or there's a woman, Pam, uh, we knocked on her door. Just knocked on her door. She's doing strawberries. Strawberries and now wine. That's how they got rich. And it doesn't mean you have to get rich, even though being rich is great, and I would encourage everyone to do it.

Ali Abdaal 23:16 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 23:17 I really do.

Ali Abdaal 23:17 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 23:19 But just finding some activity and hobby that you're really interested in for yourself that gives you something creatively as well as an upside that's, that's unlimited.

Ali Abdaal 23:25 Okay. So it sounds like you're saying that, like, even if someone has a day job, then they can learn a lot about themselves, and they can get some extra pocket money by doing something on the side, whether it's baking cookies, selling strawberries, selling wine, or starting a YouTube channel, doing web development, and eventually the people who get going are the ones who then have the, the option of taking it forward if they want.

Noah Kagan 23:45 Have you ever been fired?

Ali Abdaal 23:47 Have I ever been fired? No, I've never been fired. [laughs] What's it like?

Noah Kagan 23:50 [laughs] That was good.

Ali Abdaal 23:52 Thank you.

Noah Kagan 23:52 That was, that was good. That was good. That was good. Um, you realize that everyone is replaceable, and you don't have as much control in your life as you think. And especially today, where interest rates are high, they might be coming down, mortgage rates all over the place.

Ali Abdaal 24:06 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 24:06 Companies are back, are cutting back. I think now more than ever, people need to figure out for themselves how to at least have that option available to them. Whether you work at AppSumo, we have a lot of people with their own business at AppSumo. We encourage it. But in other companies, like if you have a day job that you like, like they could still get rid of you at any moment.

Ali Abdaal 24:22 Mm.

Noah Kagan 24:22 Any moment.

Ali Abdaal 24:23 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 24:23 There's no obligation to them, and so having your own option that you've created that you have, one, it's fun, at least gives you that option so that if things don't go your way, you're in control of something.

Ali Abdaal 24:32 Nice. Mate, I love this. I'm fully f- fully on board with, with, with, with what you're saying. I think in the past I've been hesitant to say everyone should become an entrepreneur because I've always got the thing of like, well, what if I enjoy my job and all, and all this kind of stuff. And I've always said that like, well, okay, but wouldn't it be nice? You know, lots of people-

Noah Kagan 24:49 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 24:49 ... in the pandemic lost their, lost their jobs.

Noah Kagan 24:51 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 24:52 And wouldn't it be nice to just not be so reliant on a single employer?

Noah Kagan 24:56 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 24:56 Because when you have a job, you're reliant on a single person to pay your paycheck and to support your family.

Noah Kagan 25:01 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 25:01 And that person is not you. That person is your boss or your boss's boss or the p- HR person or the person doing the company, and you never know what might happen. Um, and so I've always been very bullish on people learning skills on the side and then tr- trying to find a way to monetize those skills.

Noah Kagan 25:15 Yeah, man.

Ali Abdaal 25:15 You just learn so much about yourself, you learn so much a-

Noah Kagan 25:17 It's fun

Ali Abdaal 25:17 Yeah, it's fun. It's cool.

Noah Kagan 25:18 I mean, if you-

Ali Abdaal 25:18 Yeah

Noah Kagan 25:18 ... the difference in, in, in what I believe Million Dollar Weekend processes should be fun. And I, I talked to, to someone who read the book and, and I asked them like, "W- what about Million Dollar Weekend? What is it that you wanted?" He's like, "I didn't wanna live a what if life. I didn't wanna leave... I didn't wanna live a what if life. I wanted to know that I have dreams that I... Of how I wanna spend my day," which is with his kids.

Ali Abdaal 25:38 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 25:39 "And I didn't wanna not be able to take that chance now," and sh- and lead by example, showing the kids how he is so that he has that opportunity one day in the future. But you'll never get there unless you start.

Ali Abdaal 25:47 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 25:48 And then sticking with it, which is law of 100, which is like doing these things and sticking with these things.

Ali Abdaal 25:52 What

Ali Abdaal 25:53 do you mean? What's law of 100?

Noah Kagan 25:54 So you've started YouTube, you've started a business. Most people quit too soon.

Ali Abdaal 26:00 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 26:00 You've seen it all the time. I see it all the time. And so as we start these things and we make a little bit of money-

Ali Abdaal 26:06 Yeah

Noah Kagan 26:06 ... how do I stick with it? So law of 100 is how do you apply to 100 days or 100 videos or 100 emails or 100 calls, whatever it is. For me, it was podcasts.

Ali Abdaal 26:15 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 26:15 I quit too soon. And I ha- I was basically getting tons of downloads per episode, but because it wasn't... It was 30,000 downloads and it wasn't 100,000 downloads.

Ali Abdaal 26:23 Mm.

Noah Kagan 26:23 I quit at around 40 down, uh, 40 podcasts. If I would've just stayed... And so I've noticed this trend where the people who are most successful start it, and then they need some framework to stick with it. So for me, it was this law of 100 to actually be able to stick with YouTube now three years and then continuing. I'm n- now on a 10-year plan for YouTube.

Ali Abdaal 26:40 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 26:40 And so just finding that people need a framework to be able, as they start something now, okay, let's call it one customer a day. Don't make it a big thing. Just first... If you have a day job and you got kids and you got a family, that's a lot going on. One call a day, one social post a day, one email a day. Whatever it is, just pick 100 of them and stick with it.

Ali Abdaal 26:55 This episode of Deep Dive is very kindly sponsored by Hostinger. Now, if you're looking to start a business or develop some kind of brand, then you're probably gonna need a website. And if you've ever wanted to set up a website but you're not sure where to start, then Hostinger has everything you need. Hostinger is a top global website hosting service with servers all around the world. It's fast and it's reliable, and it's got over two million users, and it's becoming one of the fastest growing web hosting services out there. Now, I personally really love Hostinger because it is so easy to use, and it's fantastic for me and fantastic for my team because we don't have to deal with too much faff and too much setup. And if you're new to website design, they've also got everything you need to build your website rather than just to host it. And recently they've added a really cool AI website builder, which lets you build a sort of professional looking website, or at least the first draft of it, in literally seconds. It is super easy to use. There is a drag and drop editor that lets you customize stuff, and you don't need to have any coding or like CSS HTML knowledge at all. Hostinger comes to less than $3 a month, and that includes a free domain name as well, so it's super affordable. And if you use the link in the video description, so hostinger.com/aliabdaal, and on the checkout page you type in Ali Abdaal in all caps, then that will give you 10% off your plan as well. So thank you so much again, Hostinger, for sponsoring this podcast. This episode of Deep Dive is very kindly sponsored by Snipd. Now, Snipd is an amazing app that's absolutely gonna revolutionize the way you listen to podcasts. I've been using it for the last two months, and it's become my absolute favorite way to listen to podcasts. Because the cool thing about Snipd is that it's not just a podcast player. What it does is allow you to create snips of each podcast that you listen to, where if you hear something that particularly vibes with you, all you need to do is tap your headphones and the app will save it. And then it's like r- this ridiculously fancy AI transcription type feature that will listen to the last like minute of the podcast. It will figure out what's being said, and it will create a little snippet or a little snip where it will summarize and it will give you like the notes from exactly what was said. And then you can click edit on it, and you can like set the start point and the end point. It's basically like being able to highlight a podcast as if you were reading a book. Now, this is really helpful if you wanna remember the kinds of things that you hear in podcasts, and it's also really helpful if, like me, you are some sort of content creator and you benefit from sharing your insights with other people, which even if you're not a content creator, is just a nice thing to do generally. And the other cool thing about the Snips feature is that you can see where other people have snipped a particular podcast. And so, you know, we all have way too many podcasts to listen to these days, but you can browse through and you can see, ooh, that episode of Deep Dive was snipped 4,000 times and that one was only snipped 2,000 times. So you know what? Let me prioritize listening to the one with 4,000 snips because more people have highlighted it. And then you can even browse through the highlights. So if you haven't got time to listen to the whole podcast, you can go through the various snips and you can decide, is this podcast worth you listening to? And because it's a powerful AI tool, it also generates transcripts and chapters for basically every podcast, which means even if the podcaster hasn't like created those chapters already, they'll automatically create them using the AI features. And so you can, again, skip around in podcasts to the various bits that might interest you the most. And actually, it turns out that Deep Dive listeners already love using Snipd because we are actually the fifth most popular podcast on the Snipd platform. So if you wanna give it a go and you wanna level up your ability to listen to podcasts and take notes at the same time, then head over to snipd.com/deepdive. That's S-N-I-P-D. S-N-I-P-D, like snip with a D on the end of it. Snipd.com/deepdive, and that link is gonna be in the show notes and also in the video description if it's easier for you to click on it. And if you sign up via that link or that URL in the next month, then you will get a completely free 30-day trial of Snipd, and then you can try it out for the entire 30 days and you can take all these notes and you can see if it vibes with you. So thank you so much, Snipd, for sponsoring this episode. When I started YouTube in 2017, I told myself my first 100 videos are gonna be crap.

Noah Kagan 30:13 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 30:14 So I'm just gonna get through the first 100 videos, and then I'll reassess.

Noah Kagan 30:16 And how'd that go?

Ali Abdaal 30:18 Make [laughs]

Noah Kagan 30:19 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 30:20 Vid- video number 52, I hit 1,000 subscribers. Video number 82 went viral, and video number 82 took me to, like, 10,000. Video number 93 went viral, took me to 50,000. And by the time I got to 100 videos, I was on, like, I don't know, t- 50, s- 58,000 subscribers, and I had no idea that, that, that's what was gonna happen. I just knew that I've got... I'm gonna do at least 100 videos.

Noah Kagan 30:39 Yeah. I, I think where, where most people are, are finding their mistakes is-

Ali Abdaal 30:43 Yeah

Noah Kagan 30:43 ... is that they're not starting it.

Ali Abdaal 30:44 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 30:44 Like, my first YouTube video, uh, you can go on the channel and see it. It's me shirtless, which is not impressive, I, I'll tell you that. It was just me shirtless in my room-

Ali Abdaal 30:51 Yeah

Noah Kagan 30:51 ... doing this with the same phone that everyone else has.

Ali Abdaal 30:53 Mm.

Noah Kagan 30:54 I just posted it very little, and I got a little bit of a response. I got 300 views.

Ali Abdaal 30:58 Oh, not bad.

Noah Kagan 30:59 And it was like, "Oh, I like doing this." And so it, it doesn't mean you should just do things you hate and stick with it forever, but find something you enjoy.

Ali Abdaal 31:06 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 31:06 And so that, I did that, and then I was like, "Oh, this is kind of fun and people like it." And so my point for everyone is it's accessible.

Ali Abdaal 31:12 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 31:12 You don't need thousands of dollars of camera or fancy microphones or lighting. You just need your phone and getting going, and then sticking with it. Now, you know, the le- I just bought, like, a, this a7S III. It's a $3,000 camera. You have lenses. These mics are hundreds of dollars, and that... But that's over time.

Ali Abdaal 31:26 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 31:27 Right? Same as your content, but you got started.

Ali Abdaal 31:29 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 31:29 Stuck with it, and a- as you stick with it, it keeps improving.

Ali Abdaal 31:31 And the first vlog that I made, I, I was watching Casey Neistat's vlogs and Peter McKinnon's vlogs in 2017. I was in Cambodia on my medical elective where I was doing, like, this plastic surgery type stuff.

Noah Kagan 31:40 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 31:41 And I remember thinking, "I should start a vlog." And I remember thinking, "I need to do it right now, otherwise it's not gonna happen."

Noah Kagan 31:46 Yes.

Ali Abdaal 31:46 So I, I took out my phone, I lay on the bed, and I said, "Guys, I'm starting a vlog." And I... The, the video's still on the channel. Pe- people watch it, people comment on it to this day-

Noah Kagan 31:54 That is awesome

Ali Abdaal 31:54 ... where I'm like, I know... I, I, I knew that if I, you know, I had to just get started like this. I, I had a camera, but I was like, "If I wait to set up the camera, it's just not... I, I need to take action as soon as I have the inspiration." And that video's on the channel-

Noah Kagan 32:06 Good player

Ali Abdaal 32:06 ... and that was the start of my vlog, which was the start of my YouTube channel being something about something other than how to get into medical school, which is, you know, now-

Noah Kagan 32:13 [laughs] I have seen your day in the life, a few years ago vlog, where you're at medical school walking around with your camera.

Ali Abdaal 32:16 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 32:16 I was like, "This is a pretty good video."

Ali Abdaal 32:18 Yeah. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 32:18 But we've had... We do, um, a lot of beta testing

Noah Kagan 32:21 with the book.

Ali Abdaal 32:21 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 32:22 And so we've had-- We have 1,200 people on our beta team, and every weekend I go, uh, with five people to do the book, and then we survey. And we survey, "Okay, what's, what's your biggest takeaway of the book?" And ev- b- by far, the number one thing is the now not how mindset, and it's this m- mindset of how do I just do this thing right now? You wanna post a video? Great. You wanna sell to someone? Great. You're interested in maybe selling cookies even? Post it on social media right now.

Ali Abdaal 32:45 Hmm. Now, not how.

Noah Kagan 32:47 Just message your mom, message your cousin, message whoever, some- maybe it's a colleague, whatever it is. And you start realizing you can apply this in kind of small ways. Like, I don't wanna take out the trash. Well, what's now not how? Just go and take your trash out right now. That's obviously, like, a silly way.

Ali Abdaal 33:00 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 33:00 But then you start thinking and, and wanting to start a business or wanting to start a content channel. Okay, I have to... I wanna put a video, but I don't know what I'm gonna talk about. Just talk about anything. Doesn't even matter.

Ali Abdaal 33:08 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 33:08 Just get it out. And so just-

Ali Abdaal 33:10 This is every... Yeah. This is exactly what we say in our, um, YouTuber Foundations course, which is a course for complete beginners getting started with YouTube.

Noah Kagan 33:16 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 33:17 And, like, the third or so lesson in that is me being like, "Okay, you're, you're now gonna take out your phone, you're gonna hit record, and you're gonna talk to it and say why you're starting a YouTube channel, and you're gonna upload it on the YouTube app that's on your phone, and you, and you're just gonna do that right now." And so many people, their first YouTube video has been just that one where they're like, "Yeah, I'm making..." And the, they always title it Ali Abdaal made me do this or some shit.

Noah Kagan 33:37 Great.

Ali Abdaal 33:37 And they're like, Ali Abdaal-

Noah Kagan 33:38 Great

Ali Abdaal 33:38 ... they're like, "Hi, I'm taking Ali Abdaal's course. He made me do this. I've been wanting to start a YouTube channel for 10 years and I haven't done it, but finally I'm gonna take action and I'm do- I'm doing the thing," and just reducing the friction, lowering the bar, and just making it happen.

Noah Kagan 33:49 I guess two questions for you. One, what would you tell yourself when you were first starting now to, to kind of be like the now not how, and then how, just frankly, how grateful are you that you got started?

Ali Abdaal 33:58 Mate, I think I, I didn't have the terminology for that, but I'd been absorbing the Tim Ferriss personal development world for so long that I knew that like-

Noah Kagan 34:05 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 34:06 Th- because I, I wanted to be a YouTuber since, like, 2010, and it took me until 2016 to make one video, and then onto 2017-

Noah Kagan 34:13 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 34:13 ... to actually start g- actually commit to the decision of making YouTube videos. Because I was thinking, "I wanna be a music YouTuber." And every summer, like, I had these friends who were good at singing, and I was like, "I wanna learn the piano and the guitar." And we were like, uh... I was like, "No, but we, we haven't got the right equipment."

Noah Kagan 34:28 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 34:28 This was, like, pre-phones. But actually my brother had a camera, we could have just filmed with that. It could... It, it, it would've been so easy. But I was like, "No, I n- I need, I need to have the perfect microphone. I need to have the perfect setup. And obviously I can't, I can't do any of this until I have the perfect setup." And I waited seven years to start ma- to make my first YouTube video. And the w- in that, in that time, I absorbed a lot of this personal development stuff and I realized this is a dumbass attitude. Let me just make the bloody video.

Noah Kagan 34:50 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 34:50 And I am so immensely grateful. Every single good thing has happened in my life as a result of starting the YouTube channel seven years ago. It's insane. Yeah. Like, half the friends I've got now are friends I've made through the internet, probably more than half. My relationship, I got in through the internet [laughs] in a roundabout way. All of the money that I've ever made has been through the internet. It's just fucking incredible, like, how much that one decision to start has just changed the trajectory of my life.

Noah Kagan 35:14 And that's what's holding people back. And then, you know, you have ideas, you validate, and then you grow it. The... If you can just get past yourself, then getting the business stuff is easy, but it's getting that stuff going. I think there's also this other comment of how can... Like, I'm so grateful. I wanna thank my 13 year, 13 years ago self. You're thanking your seven years ago self.

Ali Abdaal 35:32 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 35:32 I think for everyone out there, like, what five years from today self are you gonna thank for what you're doing right now? What are you gonna thank yourself today, in five years you're like, "Oh, I'm so glad. Okay, I just finally started the thing I've been talking to my friends about, I've been thinking about. I finally just got going." And in five years they'll be like, "Oh." Like, even now, I'm so grateful 13 years ago I just got going with AppSumo.

Ali Abdaal 35:53 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 35:53 So lucky, so grateful that I started it and stuck with it.

Ali Abdaal 35:57 Yeah. This thing-- I, I really like this framework of, like, what would you be grateful for for yourself now five years from now?

Noah Kagan 36:03 Oof.

Ali Abdaal 36:03 Um, I, I used it, uh, a few years ago. I, I, I had th- this, like, hole in my teeth and, uh, my smile wasn't very nice.

Noah Kagan 36:10 Where?

Ali Abdaal 36:10 And I was-- It was a decision to get Invisalign.

Noah Kagan 36:13 Okay.

Ali Abdaal 36:13 And it's, it was a process that was gonna take two years, and I kept on putting it off 'cause I was like, "Oh no, but, like, they say you can't drink coffee," and I was working at the time. And then the pandemic hit and I was like, "You know what?

Noah Kagan 36:24 Now [laughs] I have no excuses now. I need to get Invisalign like right now

36:27 I know

36:27 And two years later, my teeth look, look, look really nice. And now I look at my old videos-

36:31 [laughs]

36:31 ... I'm like, "What?" Similarly, I started taking some meds for my hair loss, like-

36:34 Very good

36:35 ... in like 2019 when I had almost no hair, and I was like, "Two years from now, I'm gonna be grateful for this decision."

36:40 Oof.

36:40 And that was the thing that got me to take those meds.

36:42 Yeah.

36:42 And so I think this, this idea of now not how applies in like so many areas of life, this thing of what can you start today that your future self will be grateful for?

36:49 100%.

36:50 Whether it's taking care of your health or like calling your mom more often, or like starting that business or starting that channel, whatever the thing might be.

36:56 I think we're, we, we're surprised about it's not as hard as we thought.

36:59 Yeah.

37:00 Like, oh, if I finally, you know, all these people are gonna say this, all these voices that we have in our head, which everyone has. Like you still have it, I still have it, we all have it. But you get going and then you actually realize through action you get confidence.

37:09 Mm.

37:10 Through practice you get confidence. And you kinda keep practicing and keep going, you're like, "Huh, I actually can do these things." But that, it's by getting into the game, into the arena, starting, that you can then get to these other places.

37:21 Yeah. I, I really like an idea, the i- the idea that confidence is domain specific. Like-

37:26 Mm

37:26 ... you can have a CEO who's super, super confident in the boardroom, but who's really unconfident when he goes to a nightclub.

37:31 [laughs]

37:31 Because he hasn't put in the reps. It's domain specific.

37:33 Yeah.

37:33 You can get someone who's like incredible on stage but sucks talking to a, a, a, a camera when making a YouTube video because confidence is domain specific.

37:41 Mm.

37:41 And that means if you're not, if you're not confident at something, that's okay. You just haven't put in the reps yet.

37:45 Yeah.

37:45 So you can just get started and start putting in the reps.

37:47 Yeah.

37:47 And you can think about something you are confident with and think, "Were you born confident at that thing?"

37:50 [laughs]

37:51 "Or did you just practice quite a lot?" [laughs] And usually it's like, oh, I practiced quite a lot to become confident-

37:55 Yeah

37:55 ... at the thing.

37:56 I think that's a great point.

37:56 Yeah. Mate, some good stuff. Um,

Noah Kagan 38:00 I wanna talk to you a little bit about the, again, it's, it's, it feels like a bit of a hot take to be like being, being rich is great because I think the narrative that we're told, and, and, you know, I, I speak to a bunch of people who are very rich, and they're always like, "Yeah, but like beyond a certain point, money doesn't really buy more happiness," and you know, all of that kind of stuff. Often the people I speak to are like high-flying entrepreneurs who have sacrificed their health and their relationships for the sake of making more money.

38:22 Yeah.

38:22 So how do you think about money and the acquisition of, of more wealth?

38:27 I believe...

38:29 No. I believe-

38:30 We have hot take-

38:30 Yeah, I know. I know

38:31 ... hot take coming.

38:31 It's coming.

38:31 It's gonna get spicy. [laughs]

38:32 I believe money can buy happiness.

38:34 Okay. I agree. D- tell me more. [laughs]

38:38 So my... Taking a step back, I, I, I do believe a lot of people when they're born in a certain class economically, b- and this is what I believe, are th- believing that they have to stay there. I grew up middle class, so I stay middle class.

38:52 Mm.

38:52 That's how I felt. I felt my parents had normal jobs. My dad was a engineer and my mom was a nurse, and I was like, "I guess that's just where you stay." And realizing there's all these levels to life, and realizing you can do any kind of life you want. There's no, there's no rule to how you live. It's however you want it. I remember as I'm dating this Venezuelan woman and she's in Spain, and I kept thinking, "I don't know, but that's not part of like the normal plan." I had this buddy Tynan, who you know Tynan.

39:15 Oh, yeah.

39:15 I love Tynan. He's like, "You make the rule. You create it." And money, which is available to everyone, sometimes it's harder depending on how you were born and how you're, were, certain situations, but it's available and you can create it. And I just lived so middle class and poor, uh, basically until COVID. I was a multi-mul- multi, multi-millionaire, and then when COVID happened, I was just realizing like, "Holy shit, like I have all this money and I've worked so hard to get it. I'm just not enjoying it."

39:42 Hmm.

39:43 And I started, uh, testing it.

39:46 Okay.

39:46 So one of the things about being an entrepreneur is that we make it so scary. We're like, "Oh, it's, oh my God, it's this big ass thing. You have to quit your day job." Don't quit your day job. That's risky.

39:53 Yeah.

39:54 Having a day job you hate, that's also risky.

39:56 Yeah.

39:56 But start testing things out. And so I started experimenting enjoying money. I started experimenting like can you, I buy happiness with money? 'Cause I was told that you can't. Like that's what they say. And I was like, "Let me, let me question this thing."

40:08 Hmm.

40:08 And um, I started renting, like I rented a Malibu beach house-

40:11 Mm

40:11 ... for 25K, and I was like, "Oh yeah, money can definitely buy happiness." [laughs]

40:15 Okay.

40:16 Then I rented another house in Austin on the lake that was 7,000. It was, everything was cheaper, by the way, during COVID. And you know, if you want million-dollar experiences, you could-- I rented a Lambo here in LA a few years ago during that, that experience for $250 on Turo.

40:30 Oh.

40:31 It was great.

40:31 That's not bad. [laughs]

40:32 And I was like, "I don't give two shits to have a Lambo."

40:34 Yeah. You tested it out-

40:34 [laughs]

40:35 ... and realized you didn't want it.

40:35 I didn't. Yeah, I experimented.

40:37 Yeah.

40:37 And I think if you can think of how to, how do I have an experiment or mindset in these different areas of life? Huh, maybe I can experiment being rich, see if I actually like being rich. Maybe I can experiment having a six-pack, which everyone has, and see if you actually want it. I've had a six-pack. I'm like, "It sucks."

40:49 [laughs]

40:50 I like drinking and eating. I don't wanna live that life.

40:52 Yeah.

40:52 And actually enjoying the money now, I'm like, "This is so great not worrying about which groceries I have to buy."

40:58 Yeah.

40:58 Going to a store, and it, it's, it's crazy 'cause right now it's a scary, hard time for a lot of people. Like you go to the grocery store, you're like, you wanna buy these things and you're like, "Ah, I don't know if I can get all that." You wanna fly somewhere. I was talking to someone recently and they're like, "Yeah, it's expensive to get flights." I was like, "Oh, really?" [laughs] And I, I don't mean that as an arrogant thing-

41:14 No

41:14 ... or that I'm totally disconnected from reality, but the idea of starting your own business, being an entrepreneur, having money-

41:20 Mm

41:20 ... and you have these choices that you can do anything you want. And if you wanna work all day, great. Or for me as I'm having a family, I now have the ability to spend money to have a lot of my free time.

41:31 Yeah.

41:31 Like I can be a... Everyone can be a time millionaire.

41:34 Mm.

41:34 And money makes that a lot easier. And so I can have staff, which I don't wanna have staff do everything for my child, but I can have do some things so I can do some hard parts and then enjoy the other parts that I want. So taking a step back, at least create your own business so you have this option. And if you're like, "I hate all these money things," and you did the experiment and you don't wanna do it, fine. Give the money away or just go do whatever thing you wanna do. But I have found like I, I can do just so many different cool things for myself that it's accessible to everyone. Like I can have two, two bikes that are very expensive here and in Spain, so I don't have to worry about which bike I'm riding.

42:05 Yeah.

42:06 And it's just so great. I'm so much happier having money. And it is, you know Chris Williamson, and you know Chris, he had this thing where it's, it's a bias, right? 'Cause I have money now. But I remember having no money and I was sleeping on floors for a year. I was sleeping on my parents' couch last night-

42:19 Mm

42:19 ... and it brought back memories of it, of just working so hard and not enjoying it.

42:24 Mm.

42:24 I was just on... I, I... There's a guy, Pranah, and then I was living on, uh, Shivani's, her couch, and it was just like these really tough times. And I was making okay money and it was

42:33 It's like, wow, having money so that I can hire coaches, hire... Having money so I can hire therapists and feel better about myself and all these things that open up to me is just what everyone should do.

Ali Abdaal 42:43 Mm.

Noah Kagan 42:44 And it's a, again, I have to say it's available. It's not some exclusive club.

Ali Abdaal 42:48 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 42:48 So many people get rich from doing stands, from bottle caps. It's not only making a YouTube channel or doing e-commerce. You can do a restaurant. You can do a lot of different things. It's just finding the thing you actually enjoy.

Ali Abdaal 42:59 Mm. Yeah. I think when it comes to this money thing, a lot of times, and a- as, as I'm saying this, I think, I think I do this to myself even now, which is I, I think people tell themselves a story that they feel becoming rich is, or l- let's say, I don't know, even getting an extra 5K a month, that to them feels unattainable, and therefore they tell themselves, "I don't want it anyway."

Noah Kagan 43:24 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 43:25 Whereas for most people, if you just gave people 60K, an extra 60K for the year, like a raise, they'd be over the moon if the boss just gave them a 60K raise. But if you say, "Would you like to build a business on the side that may, that makes you 5K a month?" And if they think it's un- unachievable, they'll say, "Oh, I don't want that anyway. Oh, people... Oh, who nee- who needs money? Money don't li- ha- you know, money doesn't buy happiness, and, like, the real things in life are, you, you know, relationships and health." And that is also true to an extent.

Noah Kagan 43:48 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 43:48 Like, I don't think I am that much happier, as it were, right now than I was when I had a lot less money. I'm happier in the sense that I'm not doing my day job, which was the thing that was bringing me unhappiness, and so money allowed me to have that option. And I'm quite a risk-averse guy, so I needed to-

Noah Kagan 44:04 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 44:04 ... I literally needed a million in the bank to feel comfortable quitting my 40K day job, uh-

Noah Kagan 44:08 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 44:08 ... to feel like, you know, that was a, you know, a risk worth taking. But I think there's this story that a lot of us have, and even, even now, like, you know, we'll do, I don't know, 5 million revenue this year with, like, 60% margins, and Sam Parr from My First Million was challenging me this morning. He was like, "What, what, what do you really want? Like, what's your goal for growing the business?" And I was like, "Uh, I don't really have one. I just wanna make content and, like, teach and stuff." And I think that's true to an extent, but I, I always wonder, am I ju- am I afraid of trying to go for 10 million revenue? Am, am I afraid of trying to go for, like, the bigger numbers?

Noah Kagan 44:40 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 44:41 Or is there something... Like, I, I also think there's something to the fact that I love what I'm doing and I don't wanna, I don't wanna do not fun things for the sake of more money. Does, does any of that make sense? Like, how do you-

Noah Kagan 44:51 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 44:51 ... how do you-

Noah Kagan 44:52 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 44:52 ... how do you square those things?

Noah Kagan 44:53 A few different things. So part one is once you have your freedom number, which yours was 10,000-

Ali Abdaal 44:57 Yeah

Noah Kagan 44:57 ... mine was $3,000, and everyone should figure out what's your freedom number. Do something you actually enjoy to get that freedom number.

Ali Abdaal 45:02 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 45:03 And if it's cookies, for me it was promoting stuff. I love promoting. That's what AppSumo is.

Ali Abdaal 45:07 Mm.

Noah Kagan 45:08 And then it was like, all right, well, I'm gonna do this thing and enjoy it, and then it turns out it can actually make millions of dollars, which we go through in Million Dollar Weekend, which is like, all right, what's your market?

Ali Abdaal 45:15 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 45:16 Making sure you have the right market, making sure you have the right business model, so you can actually using your freedom and do the things you enjoy. Now, in terms of your second question, I think that that's actually a problem. It's the Silicon Valley tech bros, which I, I come from, but I left. I went to the Midwest, uh, and now Europe. I spend a lot of time in Spain. It's the problem is that they're just having more for more's sake.

Ali Abdaal 45:35 Mm.

Noah Kagan 45:36 And they have not realized, like, when is it enough.

Ali Abdaal 45:39 Mm.

Noah Kagan 45:39 Like, this year, uh, AppSumo did around $7 million in profit-

Ali Abdaal 45:43 Nice

Noah Kagan 45:43 ... which is insane. It's insane. Like, I was happy with 36,000 a year.

Ali Abdaal 45:46 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 45:47 And that's profit. And I'll just be super candid. I can take all of it.

Ali Abdaal 45:52 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 45:53 I can just take that money and just, like, put it in my bank. Doesn't... Like, there's some amount at a few million dollars where it's enough for me.

Ali Abdaal 45:59 Mm.

Noah Kagan 46:00 So let me give it to the team, which we did. Let's take everyone to Mexico, which we did.

Ali Abdaal 46:04 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 46:04 Let's go invest in servers. Let's go invest in ads. Let me give it to my business partner. And it's recognizing when it's enough for what, how you actually wanna live.

Ali Abdaal 46:13 Mm.

Noah Kagan 46:14 And that's the power, right? You, you talk to certain people, I think that's what they think they're supposed to be sell- telling you.

Ali Abdaal 46:20 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 46:20 "Oh, you're supposed to grow super fast, and you're..." You know what? It's like I actually wanna spend... If I can spend my whole day making sure I'm t- a good parent-

Ali Abdaal 46:26 Yeah

Noah Kagan 46:26 ... and a good partner, and do my work, like, that to me is ideal. I'm not willing to sacrifice that just to make more money for more's sake. Like, we had-

Ali Abdaal 46:33 Yeah

Noah Kagan 46:33 ... we had a board meeting, and I love our board members 'cause they challenge me. It's like Andrew Chen, who's awesome, Rajat T. Mukherjee from Indeed. We got Moody from, uh, Glassdoor and Zapier. He's amazing. And they're like, "You're not growing fast enough." And I'm like, "We're actually trying to grow slower. We're trying to grow slower for longer."

Ali Abdaal 46:48 Mm.

Noah Kagan 46:50 And it's just... And, and all that is is coming back into yourself. But what I've noticed for me, and I think for everyone out there, set less, less ambitious goals.

Ali Abdaal 46:57 Mm. [laughs] That's something I talk about in the book as well.

Noah Kagan 46:59 Set less ambitious goals is what you talk about in your book.

Ali Abdaal 47:01 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 47:01 And if that you can sustain, you said in your book, LeBron James-

Ali Abdaal 47:05 Yeah

Noah Kagan 47:05 ... is the slowest walker, one of them, in the NBA bec- And he is literally, you know, what, 20 years in the NBA. And so with AppSumo, the... I love our board members and we, and there's things to take away from how they challenge us, and everyone should get a board or elite advisors, which we can talk about. But we're gonna grow at 7% next year. That's our goal. And people are like, "7%?" Like-

Ali Abdaal 47:25 That's, yeah, that's like the average

Noah Kagan 47:25 ... are you even, you gonna go, you gonna go to sleep?

Ali Abdaal 47:27 [laughs]

Noah Kagan 47:27 Why you gonna even try?

Ali Abdaal 47:29 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 47:29 But what we have noticed is that I, I don't wanna sell, I don't wanna go public 'cause I like, I like what I get to do. I don't have to have a job.

Ali Abdaal 47:34 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 47:35 And by having less ambitious goals, we can have more freedom. We're not stressing to make money, and that leads us to more creativity, which then ultimately leads to a more successful business from a money and frankly enjoyment perspective. And-

Ali Abdaal 47:47 Yeah

Noah Kagan 47:47 ... that has been a, a counterintuitive thing that I've learned over the years of running different companies, where I used to set like, "If we're not 10X-ing this year, then we failed," which is what our advisors say. And so I do think there's ways of doing that, which is doing it in smaller segments. But again, coming back to how you actually wanna live your life and operate your business.

Ali Abdaal 48:02 Mm.

Noah Kagan 48:03 And yes, make a million a year, 2 million a year, it's way more than enough for almost everyone. But at least get to that point that you can have that option. But then I think if you have to try to go super fast-

Ali Abdaal 48:11 Ah, okay

Noah Kagan 48:11 ... uh, it's way... It's unnecessary. It's not necessarily what you want.

Ali Abdaal 48:14 So it sounds like you also agree that at some point there is diminishing returns to more cap- to, to more money.

Noah Kagan 48:19 100%.

Ali Abdaal 48:20 It's just that the study from 20 years ago might say it's 70K, but-

Noah Kagan 48:23 Bullshit

Ali Abdaal 48:23 ... you and I probably-

Noah Kagan 48:24 It's bullshit

Ali Abdaal 48:24 ... would say it's in the, in the few million range [laughs] or something.

Noah Kagan 48:28 Yeah, and-

Ali Abdaal 48:28 Or

Noah Kagan 48:28 ... everyone who is like, "I wanna be a billionaire," bullshit.

Ali Abdaal 48:31 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 48:31 Like, who cares to be a billionaire? Like, what, what are you gonna do? You wanna donate it all? Go donate it all.

Ali Abdaal 48:36 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 48:36 Like, "Oh, if I help a million people," it's like, do you really wanna help a million? Why not help one? And start right now to help one. What I've recognized though is that 70,000 ... Today, people who make 100,000 I feel are, are poor.

Ali Abdaal 48:47 Mm.

Noah Kagan 48:47 And I don't mean to insult poor people or rich people or anything like that, but I find it just hard to live even as a millionaire. Like, I'm like, how do people live? I, I don't know how it is in London. It's super expensive in America.

Ali Abdaal 48:57 Mm.

Noah Kagan 48:57 Uh, and so the only way you can actually be able to have freedom to be able to make choices where you're not sweating this stuff, start a business.

Ali Abdaal 49:04 Mm.

Noah Kagan 49:05 And then yes, get to some point where it's enough, and then you can share it with other people. Like, one of my yearly goals, this has been a yearly goal every year, is to spend all the money on myself or others or donate it.

Ali Abdaal 49:14 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 49:15 And what it forced me to do was like, okay, I can't keep this. Like, there's the book Die With Zero, which I, I know you like. I have to spend it on others.

Ali Abdaal 49:22 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 49:23 I have to get someone a nice gift. Like, so I'm going and seeing ... Uh, oh, this will come out later. I'm going to give some Rolexes to people.

Ali Abdaal 49:29 Oh, nice.

Noah Kagan 49:29 That I'm like, yeah, that, that could be a very generous gift for them. They'll be like, "Holy shit." Or, um, I wore this Rolex because I got my girlfriend pregnant. And so I said once I finally get not someone pregnant like that-

Ali Abdaal 49:40 [laughs]

Noah Kagan 49:41 ... but I would ... Me and my two best friends would all have matching Rolexes.

Ali Abdaal 49:43 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 49:43 And this was our dream. So now all three of us have women, and we have, we're all have, uh, our women are pregnant or have kids, and it's just like a special thing for us, and that's just having that goal and that I ... You can ... Every year it's in my goal list, like spend all the money on myself or others or donate it. And so these are some examples of having the money makes it easier and exciting to go and do that stuff.

Ali Abdaal 50:02 What are the, um ... For you, what have been the, I guess, annual income step changes-

Noah Kagan 50:09 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 50:09 ... in like your ... Because sort of, sort of if you're earning 10K a mon- to 10K a year-

Noah Kagan 50:13 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 50:13 ... presumably you're pretty miserable. When you are earning 40K, you're sort of n- not living, living it up. 100K, 500K, a million, five, three million-

Noah Kagan 50:21 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 50:21 ... whatever. What ... W- Can, can you remember what like what were the meaningful numbers that changed your life circumstances-

Noah Kagan 50:28 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 50:28 ... in a way that actually made you happier?

Noah Kagan 50:29 I think I was miserable f- until I was about 40. Not miserable like super horrible, but just never not really appreciating how good life is, and not much has changed except my mentality.

Ali Abdaal 50:37 Okay.

Noah Kagan 50:38 And-

Ali Abdaal 50:38 So it's less about the money and more about the way you've approached life.

Noah Kagan 50:40 Well, and it's-

Ali Abdaal 50:40 Yeah

Noah Kagan 50:40 ... the thing that's crazy, and I keep saying this, is that it's not exclusive.

Ali Abdaal 50:43 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 50:43 It's available to everyone. And, uh, you know, one of my good buddies Tynan, he talks about it. He's like, "The person you are and the person you wanna be is a lot closer than you think."

Ali Abdaal 50:50 Mm.

Noah Kagan 50:51 Like, you're probably 99% there, and there's just like 1% of things you wanna change. And if you zoom out on this person you, you are today, you can just zoom out on where you are today, you, me, everyone-

Ali Abdaal 50:59 Yeah

Noah Kagan 50:59 ... frankly. Life's already pretty fucking great.

Ali Abdaal 51:01 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 51:01 We have running water.

Ali Abdaal 51:02 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 51:02 And so-

Ali Abdaal 51:03 If someone's, if someone's watching this, life is pretty fucking great

Noah Kagan 51:04 ... it comes out of a fucking faucet.

Ali Abdaal 51:06 Yeah. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 51:06 You literally do this and psht. Like, where does that water come from? No one knows.

Ali Abdaal 51:09 Yeah. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 51:10 And it's amazing. We have electricity. I, every day I plug in my laptop, I'm like, that, that whole electricity thing, whoever, that Thomas Edison guy-

Ali Abdaal 51:18 Yeah

Noah Kagan 51:18 ... or some woman who invented it, God bless them. So just taking a step back, life is already so dope if we can just accept that. And where we wanna be, whether it's money or life, we're much closer than we even realize if we get going. Now, in terms of my income, I'll tell you my salaries exactly. So I graduated 2004. Uh, Intel I made 55,000. Then Facebook I made 65,000. Then I went to Mint and I made 100,000. Then I started my own company, so I went down.

Ali Abdaal 51:42 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 51:43 Then [laughs] I started making 40,000.

Ali Abdaal 51:45 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 51:45 40,000, 75,000, 120,000, 300,000. Then I started my own company and went down to zero.

Ali Abdaal 51:52 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 51:52 [laughs] Uh, so AppSumo was zero, 40, 75, 120, and then about six years into AppSumo I noticed that I just didn't have anything to show for it. And meaning that a lot of ... If you're starting certain companies in, in tech space, you wanna sell your equity-

Ali Abdaal 52:07 Mm

Noah Kagan 52:07 ... go public, liquid. I was like, "I don't ever wanna do that. That's not my interest." But I don't really have that much in the bank that I'd feel comfortable.

Ali Abdaal 52:13 Mm.

Noah Kagan 52:14 And candidly, I felt a little ... I felt, I felt it was hard to f- to take the money when I'm like there's other people in the company who are doing the work.

Ali Abdaal 52:22 Mm.

Noah Kagan 52:23 And the only difference was I started.

Ali Abdaal 52:24 Mm.

Noah Kagan 52:25 And so how do I, how do I balance making sure they're taken care of and then I'm taken care of and what I, I feel is right? And so, uh, about six years into AppSumo, started paying myself half a million.

Ali Abdaal 52:35 Yep.

Noah Kagan 52:36 And then the past every year it's been seven figures, so like one to three million. And that ... But to be clear, that's only if we make money. So when COVID happened, we had about a 1.5% profit margin-

Ali Abdaal 52:46 Oof

Noah Kagan 52:46 ... so I made less than a million.

Ali Abdaal 52:48 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 52:48 Um, and that was about two years of that.

Ali Abdaal 52:49 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 52:50 And so this year, thank God, it's been an amazing year. It's gonna be a few million dollars.

Ali Abdaal 52:52 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 52:52 And so ... Which just blows my mind. And so this is not really relevant for everyone else necessarily, but when I ... I didn't actually feel that I had money until I had $3 million cash.

Ali Abdaal 53:02 Uh, in the bank or like-

Noah Kagan 53:03 In the bank

Ali Abdaal 53:04 ... in, in, coming in a year?

Noah Kagan 53:04 Liquid. Liquid.

Ali Abdaal 53:05 Okay. Yeah. Interesting.

Noah Kagan 53:06 Totally arbitrary.

Ali Abdaal 53:07 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 53:07 And my father started his own copier business. He sold copiers door to door.

Ali Abdaal 53:12 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 53:12 I don't even know if we have copiers anymore.

Ali Abdaal 53:13 Mm.

Noah Kagan 53:14 Have you seen? I haven't seen a copier in a while.

Ali Abdaal 53:15 Yeah. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 53:16 And he built a business, and through his own choices, like did a lot of drugs and did a lot of alcohol and lost his entire business. And I remember just as a kid, uh, feeling really scared of doing the same thing where, oh, I'm drinking or I'm doing drugs, like I'm definitely gonna ruin all these things I've created. And so at that point when I had just, just the cash, and I have like a disproportionate amount of cash in the bank-

Ali Abdaal 53:34 Mm

Noah Kagan 53:34 ... uh, 'cause I wanted, if everything ends, like I wanna be able to survive.

Ali Abdaal 53:38 Sure.

Noah Kagan 53:39 And so at $3 million cash, I felt like, okay, I can survive the rest of my life safely.

Ali Abdaal 53:42 Hmm. If I, if I think of myself like six years ago before I started the YouTube channel or before I started my business, actually would've been like 10 years ago. Damn, [laughs] I'm old.

Noah Kagan 53:50 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 53:51 Um, something like an extra 2K a month would've meant like the entire world, 'cause when you're making like zero or like 3K a month, an extra 2K is like, whoa, I'm practically doubling my salary.

Noah Kagan 54:01 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 54:01 And now I can like go on that vacation, or now I can buy a MacBook Pro instead of MacBook Air-

Noah Kagan 54:05 100%

Ali Abdaal 54:05 ... or whatever the thing might be. Um, but then as I grew the business more and more, that number obviously changed.

Noah Kagan 54:12 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 54:13 But now I'm sort of in the same ballpark as you are where like I'll probably take home maybe two and a bit million this year, and I feel like that's more than enough. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 54:23 That's more than enough.

Ali Abdaal 54:23 Like a million goes into the S&P. Like, uh, you know, I've got a, a bunch of r- uh, rental properties.

Noah Kagan 54:28 Oh, sorry to hear that.

Ali Abdaal 54:29 I know. It's awful.

Noah Kagan 54:30 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 54:30 It's actually, it's actually pretty annoying.

Noah Kagan 54:31 They're awful.

Ali Abdaal 54:32 Yeah. [laughs] I hate it. This is a real like first world problem. Um, but there's still part of me, like every, every now and then when, when I speak to someone like Sam and Sean who have such conviction that like, "Yeah, you gotta go for 10 million," I'm like Huh

Noah Kagan 54:46 No

Ali Abdaal 54:46 ... are they, are they... Am I missing something that these guys understand? Because for example, you and I are telling people that, like, you should make more money, uh, and, and, and get up to 3 million, and someone listening to this or watching this might, might be thinking, "Bruv, how could you... Uh, th- 3 million? I'd be happy-

Noah Kagan 55:01 It's something-

Ali Abdaal 55:01 ... with an extra 10K."

Noah Kagan 55:02 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 55:03 And so but we're like, "That person's missing something," 'cause they don't know how great it is to be at 3 million. [laughs] So are Simon Chan, like, just, like, not missing... Are, are, are we missing something by not being in the tens of millions a year in terms of income? Is, is, like, I, I guess-

Noah Kagan 55:15 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 55:15 ... something that I, I think about.

Noah Kagan 55:17 I think most of the people that are saying, "Bro, I'm not at, like, a G even," right? Their bigger problem is not that they're not at a million. They're wor- they're sweating the million or the 10 G, but they're not even getting a dollar.

Ali Abdaal 55:26 Mm.

Noah Kagan 55:27 That's the big hold-up, is that they gotta get going, is that 13 years ago I made zero-

Ali Abdaal 55:31 Yeah

Noah Kagan 55:31 ... and then I made 40, and then I made 75.

Ali Abdaal 55:34 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 55:34 And then it was, like, flat, and then eventually it's like, "Holy shit, like, I can actually make serious money." But it's realizing I gotta get started now, thinking about a freedom number-

Ali Abdaal 55:42 Yep

Noah Kagan 55:42 ... so that I can actually do the work I really wanna do, which was promoting software deals. It's... I love it. I can't believe this. I literally cannot believe my life. I get to hang out with you, get to write a book, get to do a YouTube channel. We promote software, and I am, like, in LA. Like, this is unbelievable, and it's not exclusive. There's not some club that I got access to that no one else can.

Ali Abdaal 55:56 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 55:57 I did have advantages that, like, some people do and some people don't. But it's like if you- people get going, have their freedom number, get there, and then it's like, "Huh, actually I, I've experimented having maybe a nicer bicycle or maybe a nicer guitar."

Ali Abdaal 56:08 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 56:08 Or maybe they go on nicer vacations.

Ali Abdaal 56:09 Yep.

Noah Kagan 56:10 They're like, "Yeah, I want this all the time."

Ali Abdaal 56:11 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 56:12 Not when you're 60. I'd rather be rich at 40 than rich at 60-

Ali Abdaal 56:14 Mm

Noah Kagan 56:14 ... which is when my parents are and which most people are. It's like, "All right. I'm gonna work hard, save a bunch of money, and then maybe I'll get one, like, economy plus seat when I'm 65."

Ali Abdaal 56:22 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 56:23 [laughs] It's like... And economy plus seat's pretty good.

Ali Abdaal 56:25 Yeah, like, yeah. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 56:26 But like, it's pretty... It's not bad. It's not bad. But, like, the lie-flat seats, you know, and you can spend a little bit more money and enjoy yourself-

Ali Abdaal 56:31 Yeah

Noah Kagan 56:31 ... I'd rather have that at 40.

Ali Abdaal 56:33 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 56:33 And so just getting going is that person's problem, not actually... I, I think at millions, if you're making a few million dollars a year, you don't have any problems.

Ali Abdaal 56:41 Mm.

Noah Kagan 56:41 Maybe you have some, like, mental stuff about happiness and contentment, but, like, you can go to therapy, do different other experiences and other ways of actually just recognizing how great life actually is.

Ali Abdaal 56:52 This episode of Deep Dive is being very kindly sponsored by Trading 212. Now, investment and trading can seem pretty complicated, especially if you're a beginner. I've made a bunch of videos about this, and the thing I always recommend is to just invest in low-cost, broad stock market index funds, which you can actually do completely for free with Trading 212. It's a great app that lets you invest in stocks and shares and funds completely for free. And what I love about Trading 212 is that it's also got a bunch of really helpful features that, especially if you're a beginner to the world of investing, it can help you kind of learn the ropes without actually putting money at risk. You can actually trade initially with fake money, and you can see how you would have performed without actually putting real money on the line. And then once you're ready to put real money in, you can always switch to the real trading interface. The other cool feature that I really like is Pies and Auto investing. So Pies are different, like, allocations of stocks and shares and funds that various people on the internet have come up with, and some of them are even, like, professional finance people. And then if you want, you can just copy and paste someone else's allocation of funds and stocks and shares into your own account. So you can benefit from other people's experience without actually having to do any research for yourself. Obviously, the thing I always recommend is to just invest in index funds. But if, like I do, you like to play around with, like, 5 to 10% of your portfolio with individual stock picking, the Pies and Auto invest feature is great for that. There is also support for multicurrency accounts, which is absolutely amazing. So if, like I do, you invest loads of money in the S&P 500, that is a US fund. And normally, when you invest in US funds, at least from here in the UK, you're hit with all sorts of foreign exchange fees and all that stuff. And so the fact that Trading 212 has multicurrency accounts means that you can trade without getting hit with all these various fees. If you have an Invest or an ISA account, then Trading 212 gives you a bonus as well, which is interest on uninvested money. The interest is paid out every day, and you have full flexibility. There are no minimums or ceilings, and you can withdraw the money literally whenever you want. They've also just launched a new offer of 5% yields on GDP, 4.2% on euros, and 5.1% on US dollars and many more currencies through qualifying money market funds. With over 24,000 reviews on Trustpilot, Trading 212 is an amazing platform to get started with investing. So if you click the link below in the video description or in the show notes, that will take you a page which will give you instructions on how to sign up. And when you sign up, you'll also get a free share, which is worth up to £100, so it's free money, and there's no reason not to do it. Thank you so much, Trading 2, for sponsoring this episode, and let's get back to it. By the way, in

Ali Abdaal 59:02 case you haven't heard, my brand-new book, Feel-Good Productivity, is now out. It is available everywhere books are sold, and it's actually hit the New York Times and also the Sunday Times bestseller list. So thank you to everyone who's already got a copy of the book. If you've read the book already, I would love a review on Amazon. And if you haven't yet checked it out, you may like to check it out. It's available in physical format and also e-book and also audiobook everywhere books are sold. I really like this, uh, th- this idea of thinking in experiments. Um-

Noah Kagan 59:26 Mm-hmm

Ali Abdaal 59:26 ... like in, in my book, the whole thing is they're like, "Hey, try this experiment in your life and-

Noah Kagan 59:29 Yeah. Yeah

Ali Abdaal 59:30 ... see what happens." And back in the day when I was kind of torn between do I s- do, do I do part-time medicine and part-time YouTube and, and stuff, I was like, "Oh, why don't I just run the experiment?" And so I ran the experiment. For a few weeks, I did part-time medicine, part-time YouTube.

Noah Kagan 59:42 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 59:42 And I realized I don't like doing part-time medicine. [laughs] Um, and then I had a... I was interviewed on, uh, Lewis Howes' podcast, and he talked me out of ever going back to medicine [laughs] 'cause I w-

Noah Kagan 59:52 Damn pretty sure.

Ali Abdaal 59:53 Yeah, because I sa- I wa... You know, we were talking about passive income and stuff, and then I said to him, uh, like, "Yeah. You know, I, I like the idea of being a doctor part-time." And he was like, "Why?" And I was like, "Oh, um, 'cause, like, security and stuff." And he was like, "Really?" Like, "How long would it take you to make 100K a year if you lost everything right now?" And I was like, "Oh, I don't know, a year or two." And he was like, "I'm sure you can do it in, like, six months." I was like, "Yeah, I probably could."

Noah Kagan 1:00:14 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:00:15 And it was like, he really challenged me on that and helped... It helped me realize that actually I'd been clinging onto this story that I needed to be a doctor part-time-

Noah Kagan 1:00:22 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:00:22 ... even though I had run the experiment, and even though I knew the results of the experiment were like, "Ugh, I actually don't enjoy this."

Noah Kagan 1:00:27 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:00:27 But now I take a more experimental approach to think, where, where I'm like, you know, what is... Like, ex- experimenting with... I don't know. This is gonna sound super out of touch, but, like, Airbnb versus hotel. What's actually nicer? Turns out I prefer hotels 'cause you get everything done for you, and that's cool. I realize I like convenience. But actually, Economy Delight on Virgin Atlantic is just as good as business class. There's no need to pay-

Noah Kagan 1:00:46 Yeah. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:00:46 ... 15 grand for upper class when you can get Economy Delight, which is, like, $300 extra compared to economy-

Noah Kagan 1:00:51 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:00:51 ... and it's just as good. And I'm like, "Oh, that's great. I've now saved 15K every time I fly Virgin Atlantic." So it's like I'm-

Noah Kagan 1:00:57 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:00:57 ... uh, running these sort of mini exper- this is... These are dumb examples, but-

Noah Kagan 1:01:00 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:01:00 ... these mini experiments in my life to be like, "Does spending more money on thing X actually improve my happiness with thing X, or can I just not do that and still be totally content?"

Noah Kagan 1:01:10 Exactly.

Ali Abdaal 1:01:10 And I'm getting more and more of this data over time.

Noah Kagan 1:01:13 Well, and I think this applies not just to... Uh, there's, there's two separate things if we take a step back.

Ali Abdaal 1:01:16 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:01:16 You're saying there's one about enjoying creating the money, and then the second part that we're talking about is enjoying your money.

Ali Abdaal 1:01:20 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:01:20 And this part no one talks about because most people are still trying to, to create it.

Ali Abdaal 1:01:23 Yeah. It's also very unfashionable to talk about how to enjoy money once you're already rich. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:01:26 And, and, and this is-

Ali Abdaal 1:01:26 It's like, yeah. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:01:28 And what the reality though, and I think what you're commenting on, is actually really interesting. This is super powerful. How do you-- When you do an experiment-

Ali Abdaal 1:01:34 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:01:34 ... and it fails, you don't say like, "Ah, I'm gonna give up and blow this whole thing up." You, what do you, what do you do?

Ali Abdaal 1:01:39 You learn from it and you're like, "Try another one."

Noah Kagan 1:01:41 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:01:41 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:01:41 And so if people start thinking, "All right, if I wanna start a business, I wanna be an entrepreneur, I wanna get this great investment, maybe I don't wanna make-- be a millionaire. Maybe I just want enough for groceries. Maybe I, I want enough for seat upgrades." Or maybe they wanna be able to go to a nice meal. When you think of it as an experiment, you're not putting so much pressure on yourself to succeed.

Ali Abdaal 1:01:58 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:01:58 When you experiment, you say, "I am gonna try to do a cookie business," or, "I'm gonna try to start lawn care business," or, "I'm gonna try to start an accounting business," whatever it is. A software business doing invoicing.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:07 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:02:07 Whatever. When you experiment and it fails, you're like, "All right, well that didn't work. Hmm, this..." Or, "This video didn't work. What, what can I learn from it?" You're not so pressured, "Oh, I'm a failure." Like, "No, it didn't work. Okay, let me go back and experiment," and again and again and again and again. And it's through this process, which we, I cover in the book as well, most of the most successful people have experimented the most.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:28 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:02:28 Think about that. Most of the most successful people have experimented the most. They've done these things, and a lot of the things did not work.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:34 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:02:35 I've done conferences. I've done discount cards. I've built a lot of software no one's ever seen.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:39 Yep.

Noah Kagan 1:02:39 [laughs] I've done so many things that no one's ever seen-

Ali Abdaal 1:02:43 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:02:43 ... because no one wanted it.

Ali Abdaal 1:02:44 Mate, same. Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:02:44 And so but I'm experimenting. I keep at it, and eventually that's led me to find something like AppSumo that, thank God, has worked and I've been able to help a lot of people, employ people and all these things. But it's through the act of going at it, starting it, and just again and again, like Sean, like Sam, these guys have done things and tried it. It didn't magically just happen overnight.

Ali Abdaal 1:03:03 Yeah. Yeah, like from age 13 to 19, every year I had one or two new business ideas. I did affiliate marketing sites. I did, um, pyramid scheme trade doubler kind of thi-... This was back in like the 2006, '7 era.

Noah Kagan 1:03:16 Oh.

Ali Abdaal 1:03:16 I tried starting my own web design studio. I tried making an online video game. I tried contacting Nintendo to be like, "Can I build an online version of Pokemon?" Because I was learning how to program at the time. I was like 14 years old.

Noah Kagan 1:03:26 Okay.

Ali Abdaal 1:03:27 Um, I-

Noah Kagan 1:03:27 Did they say yes?

Ali Abdaal 1:03:28 No. They were like-

Noah Kagan 1:03:29 Okay

Ali Abdaal 1:03:29 ... "Fuck off," [laughs] basically. Uh, I built a forum where I was like super into these books th- of these kids who are spies, and I built a forum that was like, "We're gonna teach you how to do lock picking and martial arts and stuff, so if you're a kid, you can learn these skills." And I did, I did all this shit when I, when I was in school, and then the first thing that it actually succeeded was when I was like 19 and was like, "Why don't I apply all my skills of web design to this idea, to, to, to the fact that I know how to teach and I can..." I got into med school to build this courses business around helping people get into med school, which then was making me like 40K a year in profit while I was at, while I was at university, which led to my YouTube channel. All of it sort of happened. And even then, like we had like a dozen acquisition channels for this courses business. All of them were t- were crap, except when I started making YouTube videos. That was the only acquisition channel we had, apart from spamming on forums, that actually got us sales.

Noah Kagan 1:04:15 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:04:15 I was like, "Oh, this YouTube thing is good. I should, I should stick at this YouTube thing."

Noah Kagan 1:04:18 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:04:19 So even like if someone looks at my stuff now, they're like, "Oh, he's a big YouTuber," whatever. But they don't see like the literally 15 years, 16 years now of experimenting and trying random shit and throwing stuff at the wall. And crucially, I think, and I, I really like your point about this. I was having so much fun along the way.

Noah Kagan 1:04:35 True.

Ali Abdaal 1:04:35 I could not get... I could not wait to get home from like a day of lectures in med school to like tinker away on the website of my, of my courses business. I couldn't wait to learn like PHP backend programming so I could s- sit up with my brother pair programming like this medical school question bank in like 2015

Ali Abdaal 1:04:49 in- when I was home for the holidays. That was so fun. It was so exhilarating.

Noah Kagan 1:04:52 That's awesome.

Ali Abdaal 1:04:52 And if, if you can find that thing and get started with it in a way that's actually fun, I think it's the fun and the enjoyment that, that sustains you on the journey.

Noah Kagan 1:05:00 100%.

Ali Abdaal 1:05:00 And eventually something will succeed. Like, of course it will. It's, it's not not gonna succeed. But as you say, way too many... Every- everyone either struggles to start or they just quit way too early.

Noah Kagan 1:05:08 Exactly.

Ali Abdaal 1:05:10 Hey, it's good stuff. So what else is in the book? I feel like we've, we've, we've just like vaguely scratched the surface. Um-

Noah Kagan 1:05:15 No, the, the, the-

Ali Abdaal 1:05:16 Yeah. [laughs] There's a lot in the book.

Noah Kagan 1:05:18 There's a lot. I mean-

Ali Abdaal 1:05:18 And you've gone full ham on like 1,200 beta testers, like beta testing every chapter and making sure it's only the good shit that's st- I'm so inspired hearing... I was intimidated hearing about your beta testing strategy. I was like, "Shit, we're not doing that for our book." [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:05:31 Yeah. I mean, taking a step back, I think one of the cheat codes for anyone out there is-

Ali Abdaal 1:05:34 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:05:34 ... how do you, how do you buy or copy or steal the 10,000 hours from other people?

Ali Abdaal 1:05:38 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:05:39 Everyone's heard it, right? But I don't have 10,000 hours to go be a doctor. I don't have 10,000 hours to be the greatest writer in the world.

Ali Abdaal 1:05:44 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:05:44 I don't have 10,000 hours to be the best YouTuber in the world. So how can I pay to get someone else, an affordable price, to be able to help me with these things? And so this is available. You know, you've had different business coaches on. So for this book, I wanted, you know... And let me tell you the, the origin story of the book, because I think this is applicable for everyone out there. 15 years ago, I th- said I wanted to write a book. And a few years ago, I was like, "All right, well, I'm gonna l- I'm just gonna write a book," because that's what you do.

Ali Abdaal 1:06:06 Mm.

Noah Kagan 1:06:07 I started, and I sent it to, uh, an agent named Lisa DiMono. She's, uh, Ramit's agent. She-

Ali Abdaal 1:06:11 And Tiago's agent. She has-

Noah Kagan 1:06:13 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:06:13 ... like nine now.

Noah Kagan 1:06:13 Uh, Ramit's, your ag- and, and Tiago's agent, James Clear's agent, I believe. And I sent her the proposal and she laughed at me. She's like, "This is not a real proposal. Like, come back when you're serious." And this is like, you know, top, top class agent. And everyone can relate to that. You know, you do this thing and you get rejected and, and it's like, how do we have courage to face fear? And that's what courage is. It's being afraid and doing it anyways. That's courage. And she rejected it, and, and all these rejections, whether, you know, we teach you through the book, every rejection is just a test if you want something.

Ali Abdaal 1:06:43 Ooh, every rejection is just a test if you want something.

Noah Kagan 1:06:46 100%.

Ali Abdaal 1:06:47 Hmm. Okay.

Noah Kagan 1:06:47 Do you really want it? And so when she rejected me, I was like, "Yeah, I want this book." There's nothing else out there like it that helps you overcome your fear and helps you get the business actually started and then growing.

Ali Abdaal 1:06:55 Mm.

Noah Kagan 1:06:56 And so then talking about cheat codes, I started hiring 10,000 hour people. So I found the guy who wrote James's Clear book proposal.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:03 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:07:03 David Moldawer.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:03 Oh, yeah, I worked with him on mine.

Noah Kagan 1:07:04 Yeah. And so I p-

Ali Abdaal 1:07:05 He ripped mine to thread, mine to shreds.

Noah Kagan 1:07:06 He took what I re- wrote and then laughed at it.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:09 [laughs] Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:07:09 Deleted everything. Redid it.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:11 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:07:11 And then I was able to sell the book for a ton of money.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:13 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:07:14 Because I paid a guy who's got 10,000 hours on it After David, I then said, "All right, I wanna... I, I'm a, I'm a pretty good writer. I like making content and all these things, but I'm not like a blogger, Twitterer. I'm not a real storyteller author. Let me find the best in the world." And so I went and looked through all the best business books in the past decade, and there's a guy who's written two of them.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:32 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:07:33 His name's Tal Roz.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:34 Here, so he wrote Never Split the Difference, and also what else did he write?

Noah Kagan 1:07:37 Uh, Never Eat Alone.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:38 Oh, I haven't read that. I've heard good things.

Noah Kagan 1:07:39 Phenomenal.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:40 Okay, nice.

Noah Kagan 1:07:40 This book was called Never Be Poor. That was the original-

Ali Abdaal 1:07:42 [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:07:42 'Cause he likes never.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:43 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:07:44 Or Never Be Poor on a Weekend. No, but, uh-

Ali Abdaal 1:07:46 Yeah, Never Be Poor. Why did you not call it Never Be Poor?

Noah Kagan 1:07:48 Well, 'cause he has like nevers in his title. Uh-

Ali Abdaal 1:07:50 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:07:50 ... and so it was basically trying to c- I, I cold emailed him.

Ali Abdaal 1:07:54 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:07:55 Just like anyone else can, and I said, "Hey, I wrote this proposal. I... took me a year to write the proposal." And again, these are just things that people can think about. All right, so I got going. It didn't work, but I still wanted it. I wanted it. I passed the rejection test.

Ali Abdaal 1:08:06 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:08:06 I had, you know... Then I was like, all right, I spent a year writing a proposal, and then with Tal I was like, "I, I want you to write this book with me, whatever it takes."

Ali Abdaal 1:08:13 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:08:14 And so I was able to work with him to then write this book, and then, uh, it's like, all right, how do I do this in other aspects of my life, whether it's a business coach-

Ali Abdaal 1:08:21 Hmm

Noah Kagan 1:08:21 ... or M- Moody for marketing or a CEO coach. Like go find someone, pay him $1,000 an hour or pay him whatever it takes, and the amount of value you get is insane out of it.

Ali Abdaal 1:08:28 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:08:29 Uh, and then through the book, I, candidly, and this probably will come across I'm not supposed to do this, I'm supposed to be like super confident. Like I've started all these businesses. I've got a lot of confidence. It's like, no, I'm insecure just like everyone else, everyone else out there. Everyone has some insecurities or lack of confidence.

Ali Abdaal 1:08:42 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:08:42 And with Tal in this book, I said, "All right, well, I've started a bunch of businesses, and a lot of them made millions of dollars, and I've worked for Zuckerberg. I've started Mint.com." I was scared of writing the book because I was like, I don't know if it can really help people, so let me give the book to Tal. We went out, we went, we went for a week in the woods, which is kind of weird, uh, two guys that didn't know each other, two bald Jewish dudes. He... And then I was like, he's just gonna write the book and do everything, and then hopefully it's good and it'll help people.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:06 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:09:06 And all of us have a hero's journey inside of us, and I was just so afraid of the book. Just like AppSumo, I was afraid that I'll ruin this company as well, and I thought he would just save me, which I think a lot of us do. Like, all right, I'm not gonna try this thing out. I'm not gonna try the business out. I'm not gonna try the, the job out. I'm not gonna try this relationship out because I'm afraid.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:24 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:09:25 Afraid of what actually can become, which is amazing. We realize that there's some level that you can be on that's fucking awesome.

Ali Abdaal 1:09:30 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:09:30 And as we were working on the book, I realized, like, I had to face my fear of can I actually help people or not? Even though I've done it myself, even though I've hired literally the best writers in the world, got the best publishing company and the best agent, I don't know if this is gonna work, and I'm really afraid. And that's what led me to then build the beta team, which is basically like thousands of people. So every chapter had 20 people go through every single page, 10 chapters, 20 people per chapter, and they're like, "Yeah, this is, this is crap. Here's what we like, now not how. We like that. We don't understand this. This doesn't make sense." Then I started beta... Every weekend we beta test with five people. So I just got off, there's a guy William, there's a guy LG, there's a guy Felipe. He's a re- he's a developer. He wanted to start developing business, and I was like, "Okay, let's go through the book. All right, you're afraid of, you're afraid of starting? Let's go do the coffee challenge."

Ali Abdaal 1:10:15 Wait, where you're like on Zoom calls with these guys?

Noah Kagan 1:10:17 We're doing, uh, WhatsApp groups.

Ali Abdaal 1:10:18 Oh, wow.

Noah Kagan 1:10:19 So every weekend, and there's you, but every weekend there's different people going through their own Million Dollar Weekend experience so I can understand-

Ali Abdaal 1:10:27 Wow

Noah Kagan 1:10:27 ... if it actually will help them or not.

Ali Abdaal 1:10:28 That's insane.

Noah Kagan 1:10:28 And so every weekend for six months now and then until the book launches and maybe afterwards we'll do it, I wanted to build the book around will this actually help people change their life and start a business, which literally you can change your life in 48 hours. That's pretty fucking nuts.

Ali Abdaal 1:10:40 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:10:41 And it's available for everyone.

Ali Abdaal 1:10:41 That's pretty nuts.

Noah Kagan 1:10:43 It is nuts, and so through all of us, it's realizing that we can face our fears and overcome hard things, and through doing this book, helping thousands of people now literally with just this book, not, not all the businesses I've started, which has been a lot, not through working for Zuckerberg, not through all this stuff, it's like, oh wow,

Noah Kagan 1:10:58 it actually works. And so that's been the part of building my own confidence then to come out here and be like, dude, this book, if people actually wanna change their life and start a business, I'm excited about Million Dollar Weekend. So I don't feel like I have to go sell it. I feel like it's my responsibility to tell people. Like we're talking coming back full circle, I'm like, yo, if you are trying to change your life in a weekend, if you don't like your job or you wanna create your own job, you actually can.

Ali Abdaal 1:11:19 Wow. So you're gonna be a dad fairly soon. Uh-

Noah Kagan 1:11:22 I'm gonna be a dad in July, which is insane.

Ali Abdaal 1:11:24 Yeah. How, how has that changed your approach to, I guess, work and life?

Noah Kagan 1:11:31 180.

Ali Abdaal 1:11:31 Okay.

Noah Kagan 1:11:33 First off, it's made me r- have a lot more admiration for moms.

Ali Abdaal 1:11:37 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:11:38 We have... At AppSumo when I started, we didn't have health insurance for five years.

Ali Abdaal 1:11:41 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:11:42 It was just like, stay inside, don't leave your house so you'll stay healthy. I mean, that was, that was our health insurance plan-

Ali Abdaal 1:11:46 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:11:46 ... because we couldn't afford it.

Ali Abdaal 1:11:47 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:11:49 We have moms at AppSumo, and I have so much respect for them. The fact they can c- they show up at work and they do amazing jobs-

Ali Abdaal 1:11:55 Hmm

Noah Kagan 1:11:55 ... and they're pregnant with it, as well as moms and families, I have a lot more respect for how hard it is. Uh, my, my girlfriend is going through like morning sickness and all these things, and she still has to go to her own day job.

Ali Abdaal 1:12:06 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:12:07 And so that, that's been a first part, just like, wow, a lot of admiration for families and especially the, the, the people who are birthing. I'm like, holy shit, this is tough.

Ali Abdaal 1:12:14 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:12:14 Secondly, I would say the 180 is how much time we waste. We fuck around so much.

Ali Abdaal 1:12:20 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:12:21 And being a parent, to me, and being, you know, with this book, being at a company, being whatever, it's like, are you showing up? Like you say this is your priority, but this is your behavior. Is your priority and behavior actually aligned?

Ali Abdaal 1:12:31 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:12:32 And I've been noticing with my girlfriend, she's been saying, "Hey, I need you finishing at 6:00," and I'm like, "Dude, I, I dick around at work till at least 7:00 or 8:00," you know? And it's been a great 180 and a great blessing that I wanna be available for my family. I wanna be able to show up on time. I wanna prioritize what I say is my priority, which is my girlfriend and our baby.

Ali Abdaal 1:12:49 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:12:50 And so how do I adjust my schedule and my, what I'm working on so that I do the most important things and really finish on time? I think everyone should think about the pregnancy hack.

Ali Abdaal 1:12:58 [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:12:59 Which is imagine your, your husband or wife and your family, you're about to have a family and you don't have a lot of time. I am much more selective what I'm gonna be doing-

Ali Abdaal 1:13:06 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:13:06 ... who I'm gonna be doing with, and making sure I finish on time, and as well, being an entrepreneur, I can have a lot more flexibility in that.

Ali Abdaal 1:13:12 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:13:12 I don't have to go to my day job. I don't have to worry about a three-month maternity plan. I can take a 12-month.

Ali Abdaal 1:13:15 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:13:16 If that's what I really wanna do with my family. But just changing my perspective on time, it's much more intentional.

Ali Abdaal 1:13:22 Mm.

Noah Kagan 1:13:22 Uh, 'cause I wanna show up.

Ali Abdaal 1:13:24 I really like that. Yeah, that's something I've been thinking about a lot. Like, um, um, one thing that I would, I would li- I would like to be the sort of person who prioritizes relationships over work. And so there have been a few occasions where my girlfriend has needed me for something, and in that moment I was, like, set up for filming a YouTube video, and that YouTube video would've made 20 grand in sponsorship revenue. And I was like, at that moment of crossroads decisions, my default is to do the work thing. But the sort of person I would like to be, the, the person I aspire to be is someone who values relationships over work.

Noah Kagan 1:13:59 Mm.

Ali Abdaal 1:13:59 And so recently, over the last few months, I've been making the decision to be like, "Screw the YouTube video. I'm an entrepreneur. I can do what I want." Like, the whole point of getting to this point where I have freedom is so that I can literally give it to the people who I love and to my family. Like, that's literally the point. Um, [laughs] and like-

Noah Kagan 1:14:13 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:14:13 ... you know, I was, uh, there was, uh, there was, there was this thing where, oh, I think s- f- I was, I was gonna, like... I was gonna go home for the-- go home to see my mom for dinner or something, and my car had broken down and, like, the public transport wasn't working, and then I was like, "Oh, you know, I can't, I can't go see my mom for dinner." Then I was like, "Wait a minute. Let me just Uber it." And I was like, "$200 to-

Noah Kagan 1:14:34 Yeah [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:14:34 ... get an Uber to see my mom." I was like, "Screw it. I've got... I mean, that, that's literally the point." The whole point of making money and doing all this stuff and getting all this freedom is to be able to then cash it in for the things that you actually care about.

Noah Kagan 1:14:43 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:14:44 And I l- I, I enjoy catching myself now in moments where the default conditioning of save money or, like, do work or, like, work harder or do this thing, and actually, no, I could film another YouTube video tonight or I could go to the gym. I always value my health more than work, so let's-

Noah Kagan 1:14:59 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:14:59 ... just do that.

Noah Kagan 1:15:00 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:15:00 Um, whereas in the past I definitely would've been like, "Oh, no, but, like, I need to build the business and, like, one more video."

Noah Kagan 1:15:05 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:15:05 Now I feel like I'm changing that and more, like, valuing health and relationships.

Noah Kagan 1:15:08 How old are you now?

Ali Abdaal 1:15:09 29.

Noah Kagan 1:15:11 You're going through, like, decades in years, man.

Ali Abdaal 1:15:12 [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:15:13 I feel like you're on your 40th year. Like-

Ali Abdaal 1:15:15 Those are the cool people that I interview. I always learn from people. That's why I'm asking you-

Noah Kagan 1:15:17 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:15:17 ... questions that are pr- possibly half this interview people can't relate to, but, like, I, I wanna know the answers to these questions.

Noah Kagan 1:15:22 I, I think a lot of them can relate to it.

Ali Abdaal 1:15:23 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:15:23 I think a lot of them can recognize, like, hey, if I wanna be at a place where I can do whatever it is that you wanna do in your life-

Ali Abdaal 1:15:27 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:15:27 ... that is starting now. So when you're 25 or 35 or 55, whatever that is, 45-

Ali Abdaal 1:15:31 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:15:31 ... you can be there.

Ali Abdaal 1:15:32 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:15:33 And I, I do think it's relatable.

Ali Abdaal 1:15:36 Mm. Hopefully. We'll see.

Noah Kagan 1:15:38 No, and, and, and what I say about that is there is a bi- there's a success bias. Like, I'm already so far removed from being, like, you know, having a 55,000 job, dollar job living at my mom's house-

Ali Abdaal 1:15:47 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:15:47 ... to now having my own crazy house, which I can't believe.

Ali Abdaal 1:15:50 Yeah. Your house is sick. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:15:51 It is, it's unbelievable.

Ali Abdaal 1:15:52 It's so cool. Yeah. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:15:53 But it was, it was getting going on these things and realizing, like, huh, in my 20s I definitely... I was just, I was working really hard, and I think that's great. I think you work... If I had to break these decades down, 'cause I'm in my 40s and I'm finally fucking happy-

Ali Abdaal 1:16:06 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:16:06 ... I would say. Like, actually content.

Ali Abdaal 1:16:08 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:16:08 I'd say 20s is just, like, you're suffering, you're grinding, you're uncertain, you're frustrated, you're angry at your parents. Maybe you're one of the chosen few people that- [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:16:19 [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:16:19 ... that have, like, actually, like, figured it out. But I, I'd say in my 20s I was just, like, I don't know, living on floors for a year, like I told you.

Ali Abdaal 1:16:26 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:16:26 Going to Argentina, going to Thailand for months at times. And in 30s I'm like, okay, I finally found work I, I like doing, which is promoting stuff on AppSumo.

Ali Abdaal 1:16:33 Mm.

Noah Kagan 1:16:34 But, like, I'm not figuring out this dating part.

Ali Abdaal 1:16:36 Mm.

Noah Kagan 1:16:36 I didn't realize how important partner selection is. I just dated whoever I got, not got who I want.

Ali Abdaal 1:16:41 Mm.

Noah Kagan 1:16:43 That's the same thing with asking. If you don't ask, you don't get. You just hope for something. Instead, ask and get what you want. And so 30s you kind of dial some of these things in. In 40s you're calm. You're calm. You're like, "Okay, do I like being with my partner? Yes, I love being with my partner. I love... She's awesome partner." But I finally took time to go to... I went to Stephanie Rigg, she's a relationship coach.

Ali Abdaal 1:17:02 Okay.

Noah Kagan 1:17:02 And I go to therapy, and then I've hired other dating coaches, and doing these, the work of understanding myself to be there. And then the same thing with my actual professional life.

Ali Abdaal 1:17:09 Mm.

Noah Kagan 1:17:10 It's like, okay, I don't like some of this stuff. How do we finally get more calm and clear on it? I think in the 20s it just feels more frantic. And I'd say overall for everyone out there, there's really two components of this whole journey that we're all on on a planet, which is bonkers. One is patience. We're so... I'm so impatient. I was impatient to get rich, I was impatient to have a kid, I was impatient... It's like, dude, just chill out. It'll all work out.

Ali Abdaal 1:17:32 Mm.

Noah Kagan 1:17:33 But we're, we're all rushing to somewhere, which is gonna be the death, which everyone ends up at.

Ali Abdaal 1:17:37 Mm.

Noah Kagan 1:17:37 So just be patient before you get there, and enjoy all these things. And I'd say the other part that I would, I would recommend as well is just be generous to yourself. Be generous to yourself, be generous to others, and if we can just do a little more of that, and you're just a little bit more generous, like, "Okay, Noah, you're doing okay today. Ali, you're doing okay today. You, you're doing okay today."

Ali Abdaal 1:17:55 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:17:55 Be patient. Guess what? It, it does work out. It really does. And I think in these moments where it's not, we're, we're feeling frustrated and cr- making it such a worse situation.

Ali Abdaal 1:18:03 Noah, mate, that was a great place to end this. Um, thank you so much. Thank you so much for the advice and all the inspiration and mentorship over the years. Um-

Noah Kagan 1:18:09 Pleasure

Ali Abdaal 1:18:10 ... last question. What would you... Like, I'm 29, I'm gonna turn 30 in about six months, hoping to get married maybe sometime next year-

Noah Kagan 1:18:17 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:18:17 ... hoping to have kids maybe soon-ish after that. Um, any advice?

Noah Kagan 1:18:22 Put on sunblock. That's my advice.

Ali Abdaal 1:18:25 Nice. That's good.

Noah Kagan 1:18:27 And so let me, let me unpack that a bit. I got to meet Surya, he was on The Apprentice. You remember the show The Apprentice?

Ali Abdaal 1:18:32 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:18:32 It was like a-

Ali Abdaal 1:18:32 We had a UK version of it as well.

Noah Kagan 1:18:33 Yeah, yeah, same thing.

Ali Abdaal 1:18:34 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:18:35 And, um, I was 25, we were at, like, a Denny's in the Bay Area, and he was on The Apprentice, and I was like, "Oh, you're on The Apprentice, so cool." And, uh, he worked for Neutrogena.

Ali Abdaal 1:18:44 Oh, yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:18:44 The skincare company.

Ali Abdaal 1:18:44 I think I remember that, yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:18:46 Yeah. And he was like, "Put on sunblock and, and try to lotion and wash your face every night."

Ali Abdaal 1:18:50 Oh, nice.

Noah Kagan 1:18:52 I was like, "Okay, I'll do that." And now I have a skincare routine, which actually was one of the most popular emails I've sent in the past two years.

Ali Abdaal 1:18:57 Oh, no way. Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:18:58 Yeah. [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:18:58 That was one of my most popular videos in the last few years. Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:19:00 Dude, I'm saying, skincare.

Ali Abdaal 1:19:01 Skincare, yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:19:02 I think what's interesting for you turning 30, and for everyone else out there, it, it's kind of the, what we're talking about, Million Dollar Weekend, which, you know, fall in the process. I started when I was 25. I got started right now. So when he told me that, I went home and I bought Neutrogena, the, the roller, I still have it in my bag-

Ali Abdaal 1:19:17 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:19:17 ... and I started putting it on. And at 41 it's like my skin actually looks pretty good

Ali Abdaal 1:19:20 It looks pretty good.

Noah Kagan 1:19:21 Pretty good, right?

Ali Abdaal 1:19:21 Yeah, I was gonna say it looks like you have a skin care routine.

Noah Kagan 1:19:23 Yeah. I mean, I, uh, you know, and I was out all day at the Niners game yesterday. It was a, it was a full day and... But the reality was is I, I, I'd started something and I stuck with it for a long period of time.

Ali Abdaal 1:19:32 Mm.

Noah Kagan 1:19:34 And it was something small like putting on some sunblock.

Ali Abdaal 1:19:36 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:19:36 And so for yourself, you know, what's the thing you're starting now that when you're 40 you're like, "Oh, I'm glad I put on some sunblock"?

Ali Abdaal 1:19:43 Hmm. I think it's working out. Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:19:46 Is that it, working out?

Ali Abdaal 1:19:47 Yeah, I think it is. I think it, it is that. It is that. I've been kind of doing it on and off, but not, but not consistently for years, like forever.

Noah Kagan 1:19:54 What do you think's holding you back or?

Ali Abdaal 1:19:55 I'd never quite taken it seriously in that when it was a choice between working out and work, I would choose work because I was building and I was like-

Noah Kagan 1:20:06 Mm

Ali Abdaal 1:20:06 ... work is more fun than working out. And when I was feeling lazy and low energy, I'd like, "Oh, I'll just work on a YouTube video or whatever," rather than go down, go to the gym-

Noah Kagan 1:20:16 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:20:16 ... put, put in that extra effort. Um, but I've decided after attending a To- a Tony Robbins event, um-

Noah Kagan 1:20:22 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:20:23 ... which I know that you're not a fan of. But, um, I decided that, like, my top goal for 2024 was to get into the best shape of my life, so that... N- not so that I can get into the best shape of my life, so that, A, I could experiment with what it's like being in super, super good shape to see if I want to.

Noah Kagan 1:20:36 Oh, that's a great idea.

Ali Abdaal 1:20:36 But more importantly, to build the habit of working out. 'Cause I also read Outlive by Peter Attia, and I was like, "Oh shit, I need to-

Noah Kagan 1:20:42 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:20:42 ... get started while I'm relatively young-

Noah Kagan 1:20:44 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:20:44 ... to build the foundation of muscle, and core strength, and stamina, and flexibility, and all that stuff. So now working out regularly.

Noah Kagan 1:20:51 What do you think that would give you if you were in shape and you were working out all the time?

Ali Abdaal 1:20:54 Just better health and longevity for the long term [laughs] which is kind of what I'm going for, and I'm trying to find a way to make it fun.

Noah Kagan 1:21:02 And then what do you-- what would be fun? Like, how could you make it, actually enjoy it? 'Cause this is true for all-- everything we talked about. We talked about being rich-

Ali Abdaal 1:21:07 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:21:07 ... all these things. It's just not fun because today they have to start and get going-

Ali Abdaal 1:21:10 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:21:10 ... and then five years or 10 years or one year they'll be millionaires or fit or whatever those things are. They have to create a fun environment, which is in the book. I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna make it fun-"

Ali Abdaal 1:21:17 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:21:18 "... so you do get going and get start, and keep with it." But, like, what would be fun for you in terms of exercise? What, what has been fun?

Ali Abdaal 1:21:24 Um, I quite enjoy going to the gym on my own, listening to an audiobook while I'm doing it. Not like trying to go... Yeah, I've just realized this. I j- I don't like it when I have to work super hard because then I'm, like, sweating and it's like hu- huffing and puffing and stuff. But you know, doing it at my own pace, still going to sort of failure or nearly failure on, on the sets that I'm doing, um, but just taking my time with it a bit more and treating it as more like an enjoyable, pleasant activity rather than, "Oh shit, I've got half an hour. I need to try and grind out-

Noah Kagan 1:21:53 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:21:53 ... the quickest workout I possibly can." And so I get th- I, I get through a lot of audiobooks and stuff, and sometimes I film myself and put, turn it into an Instagram reel-

Noah Kagan 1:22:00 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:22:00 ... of like working out and trying to get that Lululemon or Gymshark sponsorship or whatever the thing might be.

Noah Kagan 1:22:03 Have you not gotten a Gymshark thing yet?

Ali Abdaal 1:22:04 Not yet. But I-

Noah Kagan 1:22:05 That's weird

Ali Abdaal 1:22:05 ... wear all my clothing is Lululemon now, so I might reach out to them

Noah Kagan 1:22:08 Get, get them. I, I guess even taking a step back there-

Ali Abdaal 1:22:10 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:22:10 ... what would make it fun though? Like so what I mean by that is this is something I've learned in my, like-

Ali Abdaal 1:22:14 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:22:14 ... late 30s, 40s. Like, I don't enjoy-- I used to go to the gym, and it j- literally feels like a jail. It's like, okay, so I go to this place and I literally I'm picking up something and I just put it back down, like that's my workout. Like, that makes no sense to me.

Ali Abdaal 1:22:24 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:22:25 Like, that's not fun. Like, I don't wanna go to a room filled with other people and, and be trapped. And so I was like, "Okay, well, how do I do-- get the, the outcome I want, which is to be healthy, but I do it in an enjoyable way?"

Ali Abdaal 1:22:34 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:22:34 So what are other ways for you? I can, I can share mine. For me, it was like, okay, I like cycling-

Ali Abdaal 1:22:39 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:22:39 ... because I'm going somewhere, I'm seeing the world, I can do it everywhere in the world.

Ali Abdaal 1:22:42 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:22:42 You can do it on the cheap, you can do it expensive. Okay, that's cardio or something. Then I was like, I wanna kinda maybe be fit, so I started picking up boxing.

Ali Abdaal 1:22:50 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:22:50 'Cause then, you know, I'm, I'm-- I don't wanna get beat up. I was like, "I need to..." I'm like, "Oh, they're gonna beat me up-"

Ali Abdaal 1:22:54 Yeah. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:22:54 "... or something like that." I wanna... And it's a skill-

Ali Abdaal 1:22:56 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:22:56 ... as well as then you get exercise. So I was like, okay, that's kind of fun. That's, it's actually not kind, that's super fun.

Ali Abdaal 1:23:01 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:23:01 And then squash. And so-

Ali Abdaal 1:23:02 Oh, I love squash.

Noah Kagan 1:23:03 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:23:03 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:23:03 And so I, I think with exercising, what I've noticed, besides sticking with it, and, uh, okay, maybe you have audiobooks, how do you ones where you're like no one has to ask you to go do it?

Ali Abdaal 1:23:11 Oh.

Noah Kagan 1:23:11 No one has to convince you to go do it. You just actually wanna go do it. Maybe it's kickboxing, maybe it's core power yoga downstairs.

Ali Abdaal 1:23:18 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:23:18 Maybe it's stretching, maybe it's whatever.

Ali Abdaal 1:23:21 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:23:21 And so it's like how do I change... You know, same thing we talk about rejection being a, a bad thing, how do you make it a good thing?

Ali Abdaal 1:23:25 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:23:25 How do you find exercise that's actually fun, not you're convincing yourself? [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:23:28 You're convincing yourself it's fun. Yeah, no, I'm, I'm in the process of experimenting. So squash is one of those things-

Noah Kagan 1:23:32 Experiment

Ali Abdaal 1:23:32 ... for me where I would... I, I, I don't need discipline to play squash, but I still need discipline to go to the gym. And so I wanna try CrossFit 'cause I've heard good things about that.

Noah Kagan 1:23:39 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:23:40 I've done a few yoga classes. Like I tried kickboxing for a bit. I ne- I need to try boxing 'cause I've heard good things about boxing. But I'm trying to do some experimentation to find what is that thing. Um, but also I think, I think almost everything we can find a way to make it fun. And-

Noah Kagan 1:23:54 Right. Same here

Ali Abdaal 1:23:55 ... I would like... I, I think if, if I can find a way to make lifting weights at the gym, lifting a weight up and putting it back down again-

Noah Kagan 1:24:02 [laughs]

Ali Abdaal 1:24:02 ... if I can find a way to make that fun, I'm gonna be in shape for the rest of my life. Because I might not have ac- a- access to like a boxing gym or whatever the thing might be.

Noah Kagan 1:24:09 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:24:09 Um, I know I'll be fit for the rest of my life if, if that's the case. Um, so yeah, just trying to, trying to make it fun.

Noah Kagan 1:24:14 Have you tried any accountability partners?

Ali Abdaal 1:24:16 Yeah. Do you know Dan Go?

Noah Kagan 1:24:18 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I've heard of him.

Ali Abdaal 1:24:18 Yeah. He's my, he's my fitness coach. Um, so I send him my little workout every time I go.

Noah Kagan 1:24:21 Yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:24:22 And he's like, "Good job." [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:24:23 How has that helped?

Ali Abdaal 1:24:24 It's really useful. He, uh, we, we, we have a call every other week for 20 minutes. He answers my questions. He helps me out a bit. He's really good. I'm like, "Yeah, you know, I'm traveling, so I can't get enough protein." And he's like, "Okay, well, have you considered just getting some protein powder and putting it in your suitcase?" And I'm like, "Good idea." [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:24:38 That's-- yeah.

Ali Abdaal 1:24:38 "I'll just, I'll just do that." [laughs] Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:24:40 Yeah. It's interesting, like Adam Gilbert at mybodysuiter.com-

Ali Abdaal 1:24:42 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:24:42 ... is similar to Dan. Uh, Adam's been one of my best friends and my accountability partner for like a decade.

Ali Abdaal 1:24:48 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:24:48 And literally before I walked into the show, I was like, "Adam, I'm not drinking until Thursday." 'Cause that, that's definitely an outlet where it's like a hard day and you wanna go relax, you have a glass of wine-

Ali Abdaal 1:24:57 Yeah

Noah Kagan 1:24:57 ... and it was nice to have that support.

Ali Abdaal 1:24:58 Nice.

Noah Kagan 1:24:58 So for everyone out there, it's like whether honestly in business as well as in, you know, in health and relationships, it's finding coaching and elite people, uh, to support you in these different areas.

Ali Abdaal 1:25:07 Nice.

Noah Kagan 1:25:07 And it doesn't have to be expensive. It can also be a friend or someone else.

Ali Abdaal 1:25:09 Yeah. No, exactly. Yeah. Good stuff. Excellent.

Noah Kagan 1:25:13 Thank you for having me. We'll have... So we didn't talk about picking ideas, we didn't talk about scaling your ideas, we didn't talk about growing your business, any of these things. I'll have a... At milliondollarweekend.com/aliabdaal Anyone goes there, I'll have a free thing for them to get all these different templates, resources, step-by-step stuff, uh, from the second and third parts of the book

Ali Abdaal 1:25:29 Damn. That's, that's really clever and also really cool. [laughs]

Noah Kagan 1:25:33 It's pretty good. It's very-

Ali Abdaal 1:25:34 It's, it's just interesting 'cause you need a thing like, "Hey, if you want more, if you actually want templates or videos step-by-step-

Noah Kagan 1:25:38 Yeah

Ali Abdaal 1:25:38 ... and resources-

Noah Kagan 1:25:38 Nice

Ali Abdaal 1:25:39 ... then wwe.com/aliabdaal.

Noah Kagan 1:25:39 And we'll, we'll, we're gonna do a book club video about the book where we expl- break down some of the bits and bobs.

Ali Abdaal 1:25:43 Are you really?

Noah Kagan 1:25:43 Yeah. And so the idea is that we'll take the, some of the soundbites from this and use them as to, like, prop up the book club video. It's coming on the 30th of Jan?

Ali Abdaal 1:25:49 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:25:49 Cool. We will do our best to get that video out that week.

Ali Abdaal 1:25:52 Namaste. Thank you.

Noah Kagan 1:25:53 No, mate, you've been such an inspiration over the last few years. Wanna, wanna do whatever I can to help, help support the book. And the amount of beta readers you got, I haven't read it yet, but I'm sure it's gonna be fucking incredible.

Ali Abdaal 1:26:01 The beta readers have been amazing.

Noah Kagan 1:26:02 I'm sure I'll be highlighting the shit out of it, yeah. Yeah, I think that's... I, I was walking in here with, with Isaac, who I've been filming with for a few years, and I love this guy, and doing the book, and everyone can create whatever the hardest thing is for themselves.

Ali Abdaal 1:26:13 Hmm.

Noah Kagan 1:26:13 Like, I, I think that's something I've been trying to think about myself, like, what's the hard thing I'm avoiding?

Ali Abdaal 1:26:16 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:26:16 Like, doing the book I was... I wanted to avoid it, but I had to face some challenge in my life. We all do. And then when you face these things, you realize it's not as hard as I thought.

Ali Abdaal 1:26:23 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:26:24 Starting a business, doing a relationship, whatever it is. And, uh, going into the book, it's been amazing, and I'm sure you've, you've... you're experiencing this well, like how many people, whatever you're doing, but specifically with the book, how many people wanna help us.

Ali Abdaal 1:26:35 Hmm. Yeah. That's, that's weird.

Noah Kagan 1:26:36 Have you noticed that? Pretty-

Ali Abdaal 1:26:37 Yeah, so nice. I'm like, "Oh, man, that's cool."

Noah Kagan 1:26:39 Yeah. And that's been... You know, I was working with this guy Jake on his own business recently, and he was calling people and, and getting his business going using the Million Dollar Weekend process, and he's like, "Yeah, these people actually are buying."

Ali Abdaal 1:26:49 Yeah.

Noah Kagan 1:26:50 I'm like, "Yeah, dude, they... Well, they wouldn't if they didn't want to." And people wanna see you succeed, and I think people need a little bit more of that in their life, realizing, like, you can help others, and others wanna help you win too.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:00 Nice. Good stuff, man. Thanks a lot.

Noah Kagan 1:27:02 All right, buddy.

Ali Abdaal 1:27:03 All right. So that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode. So thanks for watching. Uh, do hit the subscribe button if you aren't already, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.