Join The Top 1%: The Mindset Behind The World's Top Performers - Professor Steve Peters

1. 0:00 – 6:53

   Intro

   1. SPSteve Peters0:00

      Whatever life's throwing at you, I ask people, look in the mirror and say, "Did I live by my values today? Am I proud of the person that's sat in front of me?" At the end of the day, go out and just look at the sky and be happy. You know, don't get so heavy that you're so analytical, you strangle yourself. That's counterproductive.

   2. AAAli Abdaal0:18

      In this episode of Deep Dive, I'm joined by Professor Steve Peters. Steve is a world-renowned psychiatrist who's dedicated himself to understanding how the human mind works. He's worked with elite athletes like the Olympic cyclists Sir Chris Hoy and Victoria Pendleton, five times snooker world champion Ronnie O'Sullivan, as well as the England football team, to help them overcome mental barriers and optimize their performance.

   3. SPSteve Peters0:38

      My job is to help you to understand how your mind is functioning, what will work best for you, but it's your job to try it out and do the work and get the emotional skills. My job is to mentor you with that.

   4. AAAli Abdaal0:49

      And he's perhaps best known for his first book, The Chimp Paradox, which has sold millions of copies all around the world. Now, in case you're unfamiliar with the book, The Chimp Paradox presents this mind management model that's based around three fundamental forces that are in our brains. Firstly, we've got the chimp, which is sort of the emotion- more emotional, more primal part of our brain that acts subconsciously and without our explicit consent. Secondly, we've got our inner human, which represents our more rational, more compassionate, more humane self. And thirdly, we've got the computer, which is sort of the memory bank that stores our memories and our experiences.

   5. SPSteve Peters1:19

      Life's about fun as well as learning. You know, it's not all about being very therapeutic and analytical. Get a sense of humor. Don't spend your life and then end up, you know, at the end of your life looking back, thinking why or why or why. Whatever stage you're at in life, it's always good to stop and think, hang on, let me look at the bigger picture.

   6. AAAli Abdaal1:38

      Now, this season is once again being sponsored very kindly by Trading 212. Now, people ask me all the time for investment advice, uh, because they see that I've made money and I've made videos talking about where I'm investing that money. The thing that Warren Buffett and basically everyone who's sensible in the space recommends, which is to invest in broad stock market index funds, which you can do completely for free using Trading 212. Trading 212 is a fantastic app that lets you invest in stocks and shares and funds in a commission-free fashion, and they've got a bunch of features which are really helpful, which is why I personally use Trading 212 to manage a portion of my portfolio. So firstly, they've got this great pies and auto invest feature. So if you're interested in potentially getting into investing, what you can do is you can browse the different pies that different people have created on the platform. 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Now, this is really helpful because, for example, if you invest in the S&P 500, which is a US-based index fund, then you won't get hit with all the various foreign exchange fees if, for example, you're investing from the UK like I do. And if you have an invest or an ISA account, then Trading 212 also gives you daily interest on your uninvested cash in pounds or euros or US dollars. So if any of that sounds up your street, then do please hit the link in the video description or in the show notes, and that will let you sign up to Trading 212. And if you use that link, you will also get a completely free share up to the value of £100, so it's literally free money, so you might as well. So thank you so much, Trading 212, for sponsoring this episode. This episode is very excitingly brought to you by Huel. 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2. 6:53 – 12:01

   Steve’s work

   1. AAAli Abdaal6:53

      So Steve, welcome to the podcast.

   2. SPSteve Peters6:55

      Thank you.

   3. AAAli Abdaal6:55

      Um, you've been a psychiatrist for the last 30 years, and you've worked with all sorts of people from all walks of life through your work in the NHS, people with personality disorders, all the way through to s- kind of h- high performers in all, in all areas of life.

   4. SPSteve Peters7:08

      Yeah.

   5. AAAli Abdaal7:08

      So I, I guess one question that I'd like to start with is what are the biggest misconceptions that distinguish the top performers from, I guess, the average performers?

   6. SPSteve Peters7:17

      I think people think there's a magic formula. There may be. I haven't seen it. There are certain personality types or certain behaviors that lead to success, and I haven't found that. I think I've met all types of personalities and all types of approaches. So for me, and I ... These are just personal opinions. Um, I think that what works is when the person resonates with whatever approach or method they're doing. In other words, they get themselve into the right place, the right environment, and approach things the way they want to. That leads to success. So I-- But I don't think it's the other way around, saying, "Here's a process. Follow that process, and it'll lead to success."

   7. AAAli Abdaal7:55

      Ah, okay. So when it comes to the work that you do with top performers-

   8. SPSteve Peters7:58

      Mm

   9. AAAli Abdaal7:58

      ... how do you go about ... Because I guess you've worked with, like, the England football team and, like-

   10. SPSteve Peters8:02

       Yeah

   11. AAAli Abdaal8:02

       ... you know, professional cyclists-

   12. SPSteve Peters8:04

       Yeah

   13. AAAli Abdaal8:04

       ... and things like that. How, how do you go about, I guess, improving someone's performance who's already performing at a really high level?

   14. SPSteve Peters8:10

       Okay. So I know I'm being sort of like a typical psychiatrist. I won't improve their performance, they will. So it's very important that we keep the terminology. Otherwise, if somebody came to me and said, "I want you to get me to get a gold medal at the Olympics," then we stop and say, "That's not what's gonna happen. Uh, that's not my job. Uh, my job is to help you to understand how your mind is functioning, uh, what will work best for you, but it's your job to try it out and do the work and get the emotional skills. My job is to mentor you with that."

   15. AAAli Abdaal8:39

       Mm.

   16. SPSteve Peters8:39

       So when you say, what would I do? What's my approach? My approach is to talk to the person and ask them what it is they're trying to achieve, what they think will make it happen, what's stopping them. So, you know, if th- they said, "Right, procrastination stops," then we would look at procrastination. If they said, "Self-confidence stops me," we'd look at that. If it's worrying too much. So it's very specific to the individual. So I feel my job when I meet someone for the first time is to get a background feel for them, get a feel for where they're at, what they're trying to achieve, what's happened in their life previously.

   17. AAAli Abdaal9:13

       Yeah.

   18. SPSteve Peters9:13

       So I like to get what we'd call in the trade a functional analysis. You know, what's all the influences, and how are they managing them? What's their approach? So I always try and simplify things so people can follow it, and I say, "What's your behaviors? What's your thinking? What are your emotions doing?" That's my triad. So thinking, behaviors, emotions. And then I look at things that affect. So again, I, I'm taking extremes to drive the point, but you look at your childhood. You might say, you know, "What were your parents like? What was, uh, imprinted upon you, you know, about how you approach life? Uh, what are the values? What's your culture?" You know, because I meet people from different backgrounds, so I need to know their cultural background.

   19. AAAli Abdaal9:52

       Mm.

   20. SPSteve Peters9:53

       Uh, lots of impact things. So it is, like, really delving in to pick out the, the really important factors and then get that person to explore that and say, "Now, in that setting, what is your mind gonna do, and what are you gonna do?" A- and I make an emphasis there that your mind and you are different.

   21. AAAli Abdaal10:12

       [laughs]

   22. SPSteve Peters10:13

       I always keep saying, "Please remember, neuroscientifically," that's what I felt hit me, like an epiphany, in the 1990s, uh, working with patients. I thought, "I'm talking to a mind, and I'm talking to a patient." They were different.

   23. AAAli Abdaal10:27

       Mm.

   24. SPSteve Peters10:28

       And that's where, I think, for me, the way I practice medicine, it changed.

   25. AAAli Abdaal10:34

       The mind and you are different.

   26. SPSteve Peters10:36

       Yes.

   27. AAAli Abdaal10:36

       Interesting. Okay, so this triad, so thoughts, behaviors, and emotions.

   28. SPSteve Peters10:40

       Yeah.

   29. AAAli Abdaal10:41

       I imagine when you're, like, if, for example, you get introduced to the England football team and, you know, like, and then you start asking them about this sort of the, the functional analysis stuff-

   30. SPSteve Peters10:52

       Yeah
3. 12:01 – 27:42

   The Chimp Paradox

   1. AAAli Abdaal12:01

      Nice. So your, um, your book, The Chimp Paradox, uh, is absolutely, like, world famous. Um, uh, w- I wonder if we can, if I can ask you what's the, what's the mind model that you introduce in the book, and then we'll kind of segue from there.

   2. SPSteve Peters12:17

      Going back, yeah, to the 1990s, what happened is, um, there was an epiphany moment, and it was with a particular patient. So I won't go into the great detail, but just to say that I was able by just asking the right questions to talk to what I thought was a very sensible person, and then suddenly someone who didn't seem sensible at all and was very emotional and pretty catastrophic in thinking. So I started looking at what do, 'cause we'd now got functional MRI scanners, what does the, the research show us on this? Uh, and I started realizing that if we scan somebody's brain and they were talking as what I'd call a human being- They were rational, they were logical. So I'm gonna simplify the neuroscience, uh, 'cause I realize a lot of listeners are not neuroscientists. We looked at the top part of your head, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, seem to be leading on this, and this we know is where executive functioning takes place. So in essence, if you put your oxygen supply in that part of your brain, you're gonna think and work in a certain way. Yep. You'll look for facts, logic, but there's more to it that hit me. That part of the brain works with acceptance and starts saying, "It is what it is." That part of the brain looks for solutions, as opposed to when I started moving the patient by asking emotive questions, so things that would make them upset or more emotional. If you look at functional scanners, what'll happen, they'll go to the orbitofrontal cortex just above your eyes, and now they start acting in a very strange way. They wouldn't work with facts at all. In fact, they'd have great difficulty accepting them. Mm. So what they'd do is go on feelings, I'm not saying they're wrong, and intuition, and they'll work with those, and they won't understand facts. It's almost like facts are not part of the vocabulary. So what you've got to... I started to see is I've got two people in the room or two brains in the room. So then I start looking and thinking, "Well, how can I understand this better?" And it became two systems. So then I looked and I thought, y- you see classic connections in the brain, so when the orbitofrontal works, it pulls on things like the amygdala heavily. Um, all of the brain to me is like an orchestra, so both of these systems pull on the brain, but they select certain of the instruments. Mm. And the orbitofrontal selects feelings, past experience, emotion. It works on trigger points. It works on behaviors. Yep. So this is behavioral therapies coming in. Mm. And then I looked at the dorsolateral areas, and they don't work with behaviors. They work with rationality and thinking. So your cognitive therapies are coming in. Mm, nice. And that, I thought, "Oh, this is really good," but there's more to the brain than that. So in the center, uh, you've got all this other sort of instruments playing away. They're not the lead instruments. They're not the orchestral conductors, which is what these two other parts are. They're the thinkers. Uh, but they actually contribute heavily. So I started seeing that as being a computer. So what I'd got is the center of the brain was a computer advising, but it does more than advise, and we may get to this. Uh, it actually takes over. So there was a paradox that when you imprint a belief in that computer, the two thinkers are gonna be the decision-makers- Yep ... have to listen to that. They can't go against it. Mm, okay. So for example, if you had a belief that this building was unsound and the roof is about to collapse, then whether you think emotionally or rationally, you have to get out of the building. Yep. You know? So the center of your brain, it was crucial, and it seemed blank at birth. Apart from instincts and drives, it's blank. Belief systems start coming in, and we work them out from being taught or experience. Mm. So I started thinking we can alter that, and that would alter whether you left the building or not on your belief. Yep. So this all got complicated as it's doing, and I thought, "This has got to be made simple." Now, I teach at Sheffield Medical School. Yep. And teaching medical students, um, they like things simple and practical as I do, and I'm thinking, these are doctors to be, and they're not gonna be neuroscientists. They're gonna be, many of them, GPs and other, uh, careers in medicine, but they want an understanding of what the patients are thinking and how they, they act and how they can work with that. And so I then had another epiphany. Mm-hmm. I started looking at people and thinking when they're irrational, they looked just like chimpanzees. I looked at chimpanzees and thought they have a society which is very similar. Not everything f- to, is, is in line. But I started speaking to the hominid specialists, people who knew the apes, but more important, the ones who were the neuroscientists looking at the apes. And at that point I was told, and I believed them, the chimpanzee and the human have the same system in their brain- Mm ... when we're reacting emotionally. So, but the other apes don't. So we think in a certain way. Now, this has been published 20 years on. In 2018, they published this to say the other great apes, the gorilla, orangutan, bonobo, they don't think like humans and chimpanzees, but we are so close that we say this only is relative- Yep ... because we think the way they think. Genetically, when it's not our nearest relative. The bonobo's got more genes. Um, so I just coined the phrase, I said to the students, "If I said you had a little chimp in your head, and when you're in this part of your brain, that's the chimp brain." They loved it. It was simple. So when you b- become irrational, your mind takes over. That part of your brain works with trigger points, behaviors, is impulsive, catastrophic. It's a defense system. Yep. Whereas when you move to the dorsolateral areas, you're in human mode. Mm. Now it's you. But what was intriguing, as I was getting this with patients, and then there was this moment for, again, for me, an epiphany, probably around just n- the late '90s. There was no control over the orbitofrontal. It was very fast-moving, and it's a reactive system, and it's inbuilt, and you're given it. And when you look at the development of the brain, it has a head start in the fetus, so it's already operating in fetal life, and it keeps going right through- Yep ... our whole of our life. Uh, whereas the human part, as I'm calling it, didn't operate. So we come late to the party. Yep. So I started then looking at child development, and I found that it's obvious, it became blatant that children around two or three start saying why. Mm. And the dorsolateral areas are coming in with reasoning. Yeah. Before that, they don't ask. Mm. It's behavioral. Yep. So for example, if you want to help a child that's distressed, distract it. Yep. You know? And we know that works best. Don't reason with it because it can't reason. [laughs] Yeah. So, so this all started coming together- And I thought, "I've got to keep it simple." So the students helped me. They wouldn't let me go complex. So they said, "Right, you've got a human brain, which is you ha- you are in control of that, and that's logic, rational, calm, and solution finding. You've got a chimp brain which you've been given at birth."

   3. AAAli Abdaal19:16

      Yep.

   4. SPSteve Peters19:17

      And that's why at the beginning of this, I said, "That's your mind. It's a machine." You don't have a say in it. Research shows that for most of us, we're on the neurotic-type spectrum. Our chimp system is highly strong-

   5. AAAli Abdaal19:30

      Yeah

   6. SPSteve Peters19:30

      ... and it's quite reactive and impulsive. But there's a spectrum. Some people have very quiescent, calm chimps.

   7. AAAli Abdaal19:37

      Yeah.

   8. SPSteve Peters19:37

      Uh, and I always say to people, "If you're, got a calm chimp, it may seem an advantage, but actually in the long run it's a negative."

   9. AAAli Abdaal19:43

      Hmm.

   10. SPSteve Peters19:44

       Because it's meant to be highly reactive. It's meant to give you warning of danger.

   11. AAAli Abdaal19:48

       Yeah.

   12. SPSteve Peters19:49

       Uh, and that, going back to your point about, um, sports people or, or anybody-

   13. AAAli Abdaal19:54

       Yeah

   14. SPSteve Peters19:54

       ... it can be your best friend because that thinks outside the box and reacts quick and warns you of danger, and we know our intuitive skills, research shows, are far more accurate than when we have to try and find logic and facts initially.

   15. AAAli Abdaal20:08

       Hmm.

   16. SPSteve Peters20:09

       So working with intuition, as long as it's functioning well, is actually a massive plus.

   17. AAAli Abdaal20:14

       Hmm.

   18. SPSteve Peters20:14

       So you have to start joining forces of two thinking brains and start working together, and again, the research shows the people who work with both the logic and the intuition and learn how to manage them-

   19. AAAli Abdaal20:26

       Yeah

   20. SPSteve Peters20:26

       ... and the emotional warning signals from the chimp system do the best.

   21. AAAli Abdaal20:30

       Nice.

   22. SPSteve Peters20:31

       This is really complex, I'm rambling. [laughs]

   23. AAAli Abdaal20:32

       No, the, this, this is a great explanation. Um, I'm just sort of... O- okay, so the, the human brain is the dorsi- the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

   24. SPSteve Peters20:40

       Yeah.

   25. AAAli Abdaal20:40

       The-

   26. SPSteve Peters20:41

       Well, it's, that's the lead.

   27. AAAli Abdaal20:42

       Yeah.

   28. SPSteve Peters20:42

       And then it has all the system in the computer helping it.

   29. AAAli Abdaal20:45

       Okay, right, so that's, that's the conductor.

   30. SPSteve Peters20:46

       But the chimp has its system-
4. 27:42 – 37:00

   Dealing with imposter syndrome

   1. AAAli Abdaal27:42

      Yeah. I love the thing around, um... You know, this is the, the thesis behind my book as well, which is coming out in a few months, Feel-Good Productivity, where we just dove a lot into the evidence that does show that, like, when you feel good, when you've got the positive emotions-

   2. SPSteve Peters27:55

      Yeah

   3. AAAli Abdaal27:55

      ... you're more creative, you're more productive, you're less stressed. Um, the broaden-and-build theory and all this, all this sort of stuff. Um, and so I feel like that's how I've been... You know, I've been making YouTube videos for the last six years, some, like, partly med- in medical school, partly while, while working as a doctor. And people kept on asking, "How are you so productive? How do you, how do you do all this stuff?"

   4. SPSteve Peters28:14

      Mm.

   5. AAAli Abdaal28:14

      And a lot of it was around making sure the thing felt enjoyable and f- I felt comfortable doing it and I felt at peace.

   6. SPSteve Peters28:20

      Yeah.

   7. AAAli Abdaal28:20

      Which involved combating, you know, initially imposter syndrome and procrastination and-

   8. SPSteve Peters28:24

      True, true. Get it

   9. AAAli Abdaal28:25

      ... fear of judgment and like, "Oh, well, I had this negative comment," and it's like there's 100 positive comments, but the one negative comment, I'm gonna fixate on that. And then learning strategies to kind of cope with that over time.

   10. SPSteve Peters28:34

       And again, you know, if I'd met you at that point and you said, "This is what I've got, and I've got imposter syndrome."

   11. AAAli Abdaal28:39

       Yeah.

   12. SPSteve Peters28:39

       And I say, "Well, the first thing is see it as a very positive thing. It's very positive-

   13. AAAli Abdaal28:44

       Mm

   14. SPSteve Peters28:44

       ... imposter syndrome. It's not negative." Um, if you see what the brain's doing, all it's saying is, "Can you check for me?" So I said, "This is, this is the chimp at its best to me." So if you get imposter syndrome, the chimp brain is sending you a message to say, "Look, my job isn't to find solutions. That's your job."

   15. AAAli Abdaal28:59

       Yeah.

   16. SPSteve Peters28:59

       "All right? As the human, you find me the solution."

   17. AAAli Abdaal29:01

       Yeah.

   18. SPSteve Peters29:02

       "I'll give you the, the warning. I'm doing my job. Are you an imposter?" So your job is to say, "Thanks for the warning. Let's have a look at what I'm trying to do." And now, depending on the person, you might wanna look at things like, "Am I articulate? Am I doing the job well? Do I get out of my guests on the podcast? Do I get the information the public want?"

   19. AAAli Abdaal29:21

       Yeah.

   20. SPSteve Peters29:21

       You could go down that route, or you could say, "I'm not gonna go down that route, because I don't know what the public will say." And let's be honest, the, the most vocal people are the negative ones.

   21. AAAli Abdaal29:31

       Yeah.

   22. SPSteve Peters29:31

       So you will get a distorted, um, statistic. You might go down a different route and say, "Let me look at my values."

   23. AAAli Abdaal29:38

       Yeah.

   24. SPSteve Peters29:38

       "Am I doing what I think is genuine? And if I reach 10 people doing this, is that more important to me than reaching a million who actually don't move anywhere?" So again, I would work with you to say, "Let's look at the imposter syndrome."

   25. AAAli Abdaal29:52

       Yeah.

   26. SPSteve Peters29:52

       "Let's pick it up as a positive. Let's give it an answer. Let's give it a solution, and then let's work with it." So then it becomes a positive, productive thing-

   27. AAAli Abdaal30:00

       Mm

   28. SPSteve Peters30:00

       ... not a negative.

   29. AAAli Abdaal30:03

       I was interviewing a clinical psychologist yesterday, um, and we were talking about the idea of, uh, holding thoughts at arm's length and, like, not, like, over-identifying with them.

   30. SPSteve Peters30:14

       Mm.
5. 37:00 – 46:00

   Dealing with mental goblins and gremlins

   1. AAAli Abdaal37:00

      like, um, what is the goblin and gremlin, and how did you arrive at those kind of like quite like high, h- high imagery kind of?

   2. SPSteve Peters37:09

      Yeah. So the commonest one which I've, I, I mentioned is- First of all, the gremlins. The gremlins are just beliefs or behaviors that are really unhelpful, and we've just got into a routine pattern. So you've formed these pathways in your brain, and they keep repeating and repeating, and they drive you crazy 'cause you don't want them. Uh, so can we turn them over? Yes, but y- there are rules about how you turn them over. So often the- one of the rules is we have... A belief is usually underpinned by five, six, seven other beliefs. [laughs] So I always say, "These are the gremlins. These beliefs don't dance alone."

   3. AAAli Abdaal37:38

      Mm.

   4. SPSteve Peters37:38

      They, they're a gang.

   5. AAAli Abdaal37:39

      Yeah.

   6. SPSteve Peters37:39

      And you've got to pin all of them. So I go around and find all the supporting gremlins, and then we knock them all on the head one by one.

   7. AAAli Abdaal37:45

      Yeah.

   8. SPSteve Peters37:45

      If you do that and then you must replace them with what I call the autopilot, that's a really truthful, not a false belief, a truthful belief based on fash- facts and logic, and that will form a new pathway. And we keep reinforcing that till eventually... And it's not brainwashing, it's reality.

   9. AAAli Abdaal38:01

      Yeah.

   10. SPSteve Peters38:01

       Bringing you to reality. Y- the gremlins go, and you think over time, "Yeah, they've gone."

   11. AAAli Abdaal38:06

       Okay.

   12. SPSteve Peters38:06

       And it can be instant, or it can be over weeks. The goblin is different. The one I usually use is the fridge door syndrome, which a lot of us relate to. Uh, when children first go to school, they're asked to paint a picture.

   13. AAAli Abdaal38:20

       Yep.

   14. SPSteve Peters38:20

       And take it home, and Mum or Dad approves and sticks it on the fridge door. What Mum and Dad often do then is say, "Aren't you clever?" And they're pointing to the picture saying, you know, "You're so clever. Clever girl, clever boy. I love you. I want the world to see. We'll put it on the fridge door." And that's damage. That's a goblin p- g- running... Yeah, that's really bad news.

   15. AAAli Abdaal38:40

       Why, why, why is that bad news? [laughs]

   16. SPSteve Peters38:41

       Right. It's really bad news. Yeah, you have to step back and see how a child thinks at this point 'cause they're not fully rational. They're mainly in chimp mode.

   17. AAAli Abdaal38:49

       Yeah.

   18. SPSteve Peters38:49

       And what you've really said to the child is, "If you bring something to me that you've done, that I approve of"-

   19. AAAli Abdaal38:57

       Ooh, yep

   20. SPSteve Peters38:58

       ... yeah, "then I love you, and the world knows"-

   21. AAAli Abdaal39:01

       Mm

   22. SPSteve Peters39:01

       ... "and I'm gonna make sure the world knows. I'm gonna really emphasize it on the fridge door." Now, I'm saying it dramatically-

   23. AAAli Abdaal39:07

       Sure

   24. SPSteve Peters39:07

       ... to drive the point, but if you did it differently and you said or put the picture down when the child came home, and say, "I want to see it. Not yet." And you sat them on your knee and said, "I love you as you are. I think you're great. I want the world to know you're great." And then you say to the child, "What's this?"

   25. AAAli Abdaal39:24

       Mm.

   26. SPSteve Peters39:25

       You can still approve of the picture, but you can also say, "Ooh, well, the sun isn't green, is it?" And with the child doing that, what you find is the child begins to form resilience because it learns that I am valued as me as a person. I don't need to prove myself-

   27. AAAli Abdaal39:40

       Yeah

   28. SPSteve Peters39:40

       ... to me or anybody else. What I can do is I can paint a picture, and I can self-criticize. So the child can laugh at something. If you think it's very subtle, the question is, does it work? And the answer is yes. Research shows that if you start building resilience in children by giving them the power of, uh, self-criticism, both good and bad, uh, they'll learn to do that as teenagers-

   29. AAAli Abdaal40:03

       Mm

   30. SPSteve Peters40:03

       ... and it gives them resilience against peer pressure-
6. 46:00 – 51:53

   Motivation and commitment

   1. AAAli Abdaal46:00

      one of the things, though, when, when we emailed you before this podcast and we asked, like, "What would be a good result for you?" You said a line that really resonated with me. It was, it was, it was to the effect of, "As long as this helps one person who's in a bad place, then, then that's the goal."

   2. SPSteve Peters46:15

      Yeah.

   3. AAAli Abdaal46:16

      And that reminded me of, like, uh, you know, after three years of making YouTube videos, I, I think my chimp was very, uh, fixated on, like, the performance of the video-

   4. SPSteve Peters46:25

      Yeah

   5. AAAli Abdaal46:25

      ... like the view count and all that kind of stuff.

   6. SPSteve Peters46:27

      Yeah.

   7. AAAli Abdaal46:27

      And I realized that actually my model for making YouTube videos now is as long as this helps at least one person or has the potential to help at least one person-

   8. SPSteve Peters46:35

      Yeah

   9. AAAli Abdaal46:35

      ... then I'm happy.

   10. SPSteve Peters46:35

       Yeah.

   11. AAAli Abdaal46:36

       And that's like takes all the pressure off. It means that even though the mind still is like, "Oh, you know, I can't say this-"

   12. SPSteve Peters46:42

       Yeah

   13. AAAli Abdaal46:42

       ... "because it's not quite right," and like, "Ugh," it's still, "I know, helping one person." And just that kind of thing helps me at least just get over all of the-

   14. SPSteve Peters46:51

       Yeah

   15. AAAli Abdaal46:51

       ... inherent emotional baggage associated with, like, making a video, putting myself out there.

   16. SPSteve Peters46:56

       That's well done.

   17. AAAli Abdaal46:58

       Yeah. [laughs]

   18. SPSteve Peters46:58

       So and I think, um, again, if you're looking at the model I'm using, uh, which is not for everyone, but if people resonate, great.

   19. AAAli Abdaal47:05

       Mm.

   20. SPSteve Peters47:05

       Um, if you're in chimp mode, I promote that. So I would be saying to you if I'm working with you, "I want you to look at your figures. I want you to use the chimp system-"

   21. AAAli Abdaal47:15

       Yeah

   22. SPSteve Peters47:15

       ... to say, "Right," because that's gonna prod you into thinking, make sure this is quality. But once you've done the podcast, now turn, move systems into human and say, "It's one person." So there is a place for the chimp in our-

   23. AAAli Abdaal47:28

       Mm

   24. SPSteve Peters47:28

       ... our lives. It isn't that I'm saying don't use it. I'm saying I use it in sport. I want the chimp to say, "I'm gonna get the gold medal and the world record." I want that because that will drive you and give you some commitment.

   25. AAAli Abdaal47:40

       Yeah.

   26. SPSteve Peters47:41

       I don't need it. I, I can use the human system, which is commitment. The chimp is motivation. So I don't work with motivation-

   27. AAAli Abdaal47:48

       Yeah

   28. SPSteve Peters47:48

       ... but if people push me, because it's just an emotion. I work with commitment 'cause successful people work with commitment. So and I would then say, "But by all means, when you're in training, use the chimp to say that this has to be a brilliant session." All I'm saying is when you've finished, switch to human and be proud of the fact you gave it everything. Didn't work perfectly or it did.

   29. AAAli Abdaal48:08

       Mm.

   30. SPSteve Peters48:08

       That's great. There's another day. Get some perspective. Then you leave your training session in a good place because you've flicked into a reasonable state of mind now.
7. 51:53 – 1:00:54

   Goblins vs. gremlins

   1. AAAli Abdaal51:53

      Um, we used the fridge door as an example of a goblin.

   2. SPSteve Peters51:56

      Yeah.

   3. AAAli Abdaal51:56

      Um, what are some examples of gremlins and, like, what's the distinction between the two?

   4. SPSteve Peters52:00

      Okay. Goblins, uh, can't be removed. So the fridge door tends to stick with us all the time. It's so ingrained. It's like a pathway in the brain that's so fixed.

   5. AAAli Abdaal52:10

      Mm.

   6. SPSteve Peters52:10

      We have to work with it and say, "Okay." So again, I'm taking that, the, the fridge door as an example, but you can imagine, i- in the world of psychiatry, uh, there's a lot of terrible life stories you hear. And some children f- particularly might have been neglected or abused. And we know that children who are really thrown around for the first seven, eight years of their life often find they're unstable as adults emotionally and quite clingy. Not all. Not all. And, and that's not the child or the person, that's the machine.

   7. AAAli Abdaal52:40

      Yeah.

   8. SPSteve Peters52:41

      So the machine is... A- and we, we struggle to get them to be calm, and collected, and form good relationships. And I'm saying rather than try and change the machine, let's work with the machine. However, when we're going through life, let's say we have a bad experience. We form a relationship. It's an intimate one, and it's the first relationship we have, and the person is dishonest with us and, um, betrays us. Uh, then we have a belief that we can form a belief that all relationships are gonna be like this. All people are not trustworthy. And it's based on that one really severe emotional experience. That can be turned round. That's a belief you've got which is false. You've just picked the wrong person, you know? So you look at phrases throughout the years that tell us this is common experience. You kiss a lot of, uh, frogs before you find your prince.

   9. AAAli Abdaal53:30

      Yeah.

   10. SPSteve Peters53:31

       So they're telling us that you will have some false starts, and they'll be painful, you know? But that doesn't mean there isn't somebody out there that's like you that's gonna say, "This means something to me, and I'm gonna work on a, a valued relationship." So that's a, a belief you form which is false, but you're working with it, and we have to turn false beliefs into reality and the truth.

   11. AAAli Abdaal53:52

       Okay. So the false beliefs that we form as, like, adults are the gremlins?

   12. SPSteve Peters53:56

       And children.

   13. AAAli Abdaal53:56

       And children. Yeah.

   14. SPSteve Peters53:57

       We can form them as children.

   15. AAAli Abdaal53:58

       Yeah.

   16. SPSteve Peters53:58

       But a goblin is something which is, um, something which is so ingrained it's hard to shift 'cause the circuits have altered.

   17. AAAli Abdaal54:07

       Mm.

   18. SPSteve Peters54:07

       So we know that as we're developing, uh, there are windows for some parts of the brain to develop, and if they don't develop in the time we expect, then we find it a struggle to change them. So they've not developed properly. So we know certain areas of the brain don't reach their full potential.

   19. AAAli Abdaal54:21

       Yeah.

   20. SPSteve Peters54:22

       And children that are abused, we find certain areas of the brain don't actually grow to the extent they're meant to and form the connections they're meant to, and that window is lost. So we know their brain will always have a struggle, and one of them for, for children, for example, is the ability for one part of the brain to dampen down emotion is lost. So we know they're far more reactive to emotional situations, and that's the machine not being able to dampen down.

   21. AAAli Abdaal54:49

       Yep.

   22. SPSteve Peters54:50

       That's all I'm saying. So if we recognize that in neuroscience terms, I give it the name goblin. So you're always gonna have that bit of overreaction, so we're gonna have to program it to manage it, but it may never go.

   23. AAAli Abdaal55:01

       Yeah.

   24. SPSteve Peters55:01

       So don't beat yourself up if it happens. You think, "That's... My machine's a bit damaged."

   25. AAAli Abdaal55:06

       Got it. And so goblins and gremlins are part of the computer-

   26. SPSteve Peters55:09

       Yeah

   27. AAAli Abdaal55:09

       ... which is that sort of blank slate-

   28. SPSteve Peters55:11

       Yeah

   29. AAAli Abdaal55:11

       ... kind of computer model which the human and also the chimp draw from.

   30. SPSteve Peters55:15

       Refer to-
8. 1:00:54 – 1:06:17

   How to cope when things go wrong

   1. SPSteve Peters1:00:54

      the book I've written, A Path Through the Jungle, is trying to be very practical manual, and I go through this in detail. And one of the things I've done there, which a lot of people have got back to me, [laughs] so I'm glad I put it in, was whenever something goes wrong, it's not what you want or it's not what you expect, the chimp kicks and you get emotional reaction. I say immediately program yourself to say, "Okay, I've now got an emotional message. What's the plan?" Because that, "What's the plan?" from the computer flicks you into human mode.

   2. AAAli Abdaal1:01:23

      Nice.

   3. SPSteve Peters1:01:23

      And everybody says, "That's so powerful."

   4. AAAli Abdaal1:01:26

      That's good.

   5. SPSteve Peters1:01:26

      Something happens, they go, "Okay, what's the plan?" And immediately I know because you've shifted system, there's a calmness starts coming-

   6. AAAli Abdaal1:01:33

      Hmm

   7. SPSteve Peters1:01:33

      ... because the chimp's going, "Okay, I don't have to worry now. I've, I've alerted, and you're on the ball now."

   8. AAAli Abdaal1:01:37

      Yeah.

   9. SPSteve Peters1:01:37

      "You're coming up with a plan." So it's something as simple as that, that you have to learn. Every time I get emotional, stop and say, "Okay, what's the plan?" Being emotional isn't gonna help. So that's the kind of stuff which it may not resonate with everyone, and I've tried to put a lot in the book that people in the past when I've worked said, "That resonates with me."

   10. AAAli Abdaal1:01:56

       Yeah.

   11. SPSteve Peters1:01:57

       You know?

   12. AAAli Abdaal1:01:59

       That's very good. What's the plan? 'Cause I guess the chimp is the, well, the warning system, but it's not the planning system.

   13. SPSteve Peters1:02:04

       Exactly.

   14. AAAli Abdaal1:02:04

       The human is the planning system.

   15. SPSteve Peters1:02:05

       Exactly, and people engage with the emotion. I keep saying, "That's not what it's there for."

   16. AAAli Abdaal1:02:09

       Yeah.

   17. SPSteve Peters1:02:09

       So if you get anxious, go, "Thank you. Thank the chimp. You've got me anxious. Let me work the plan out. Let's get a solution. Let's see what it is." And sometimes the plan may not solve the solution. So let's... So I'll go back to relationships-

   18. AAAli Abdaal1:02:22

       Yeah

   19. SPSteve Peters1:02:22

       ... 'cause it's a big one in most people's lives, and let's say that the relationship's going wrong, and it's something you don't want to go wrong.

   20. AAAli Abdaal1:02:27

       Mm.

   21. SPSteve Peters1:02:28

       And you get very emotional as this person says, "Look, I'm sorry, but I think this is the end of the line." Um, and your emotions go up, and you say, "What's the plan?" And you think, "Well, there isn't a plan because it is the end of the line." Well, there is a plan. The plan is to say, for example, it may not resonate with everyone, "This happens to lots of people. We do get over it. Yes, we could even be emotionally scarred, but life will go on."

   22. AAAli Abdaal1:02:49

       Mm.

   23. SPSteve Peters1:02:50

       "Nearly everybody finds somebody else if that's what you want, yeah? And life will continue." If you have that in your head and say, "It will take around three months on average. You'll go through a lot of emotions, but you will come out the other side. So take a deep breath. You've got three months of a rotten tumble coming."

   24. AAAli Abdaal1:03:07

       Yeah.

   25. SPSteve Peters1:03:07

       For th- someone to have that as the plan-

   26. AAAli Abdaal1:03:10

       Yeah

   27. SPSteve Peters1:03:10

       ... is a good plan because you're saying, "I'm accepting it's got- I've gotta go through it."

   28. AAAli Abdaal1:03:15

       Mm.

   29. SPSteve Peters1:03:16

       So taking a much more dramatic example, which... And everyone's different in what, how they approach it. My approach, uh, uh, as I say, psychiatry's not a happy world.

   30. AAAli Abdaal1:03:24

       Mm.
9. 1:06:17 – 1:13:54

   Understanding and describing our emotions

   1. AAAli Abdaal1:06:17

      We mentioned how, um, the chimp is the sort of warning system, makes us feel anxious or disturbed. I wonder what's your view on how, how granular should we go in trying to understand the emotions in the sense of is I feel disturbed enough, or is it important to go deeper to be like, "Okay, I'm think- I think I'm feeling frustration or irritation, which is a subset of anger. Okay, I... Like, I'm really-

   2. SPSteve Peters1:06:43

      Okay

   3. AAAli Abdaal1:06:43

      ... nailing the, the specific emotion," versus just, "I'm feeling a bit, like, off about the situation"?

   4. SPSteve Peters1:06:48

      I think it depends on the person again, um, because some people don't wanna go heavy. They just keep it simple and really simple. Um, whereas someone says to me, "I'd like to understand more," then we go to the depth they wanna understand. But there is a point you have to say, "Don't overanalyze," because you can, you know, it's death by analysis, and-

   5. AAAli Abdaal1:07:06

      Yeah

   6. SPSteve Peters1:07:06

      ... at the end of the day, you've gotta have some element of spontaneity. But I think that's up to the person. Uh, what I do say is, like you gave some words there, frustration, anger, you know, and I say, "Well, let's look at the most appropriate word." And, and often the chimp's vocabulary is quite limited in a lot of people, so they end up calling themself, "And I'm, I'm an angry person."

   7. AAAli Abdaal1:07:28

      Mm.

   8. SPSteve Peters1:07:28

      'Cause what they say is, "If something goes wrong, I get angry," and they don't have an alternative word.

   9. AAAli Abdaal1:07:33

      Yeah.

   10. SPSteve Peters1:07:33

       So I work with people say, "What do you wanna use as an alternative? Could despondent be a better word?" So they start learning to train their chimp to use different vocabulary.

   11. AAAli Abdaal1:07:42

       Yeah.

   12. SPSteve Peters1:07:42

       And clearly the way the brain works, if I say I'm angry, then it alerts systems to be angry.

   13. AAAli Abdaal1:07:47

       Yeah.

   14. SPSteve Peters1:07:48

       I'm telling my brain this is what you need to be. Uh, so I actually start behaving it, whereas if I say I'm despondent- It's changed my mindset instantly. So I like to do vocabulary training for the chimp.

   15. AAAli Abdaal1:07:59

       Ooh, nice.

   16. SPSteve Peters1:08:00

       Yeah, I do. And then I, I've done some fun sessions with people saying, "Give me, uh, you know, 20 different words describing what you say is anger but isn't."

   17. AAAli Abdaal1:08:09

       Yeah.

   18. SPSteve Peters1:08:09

       'Cause there's a big difference between anger and frustration. There's a big difference between anger and disappointment or being let down.

   19. AAAli Abdaal1:08:14

       Yeah.

   20. SPSteve Peters1:08:15

       You know? Or w- whatever it would be. Uh, so we have a lot of words, and then we try and use the vocabulary to say, "Right, what's the word I'm really experiencing?" And that's almost like programming an autopilot-

   21. AAAli Abdaal1:08:26

       Yeah

   22. SPSteve Peters1:08:26

       ... that when I experience something, don't call it anger. Your computer goes, "What's another word?"

   23. AAAli Abdaal1:08:31

       Right.

   24. SPSteve Peters1:08:31

       And if you start using them, you think, "I've got other words." So y- you can see what I tend to do with people is emotional skills training, a way you, you're really using your intelligence, your brain, to say, "How can I manage this machine to get the best out of me?"

   25. AAAli Abdaal1:08:47

       Mm. There's an app that I, that a, a previous podcast guest actually recommended to me. Uh, it's, uh, it's very interesting. It's called... In fact, I'll, I'll do a screen recording, so we'll, we'll show this on screen for anyone who is watching this on YouTube. Um, it's a free app. It's called How We Feel, which is-

   26. SPSteve Peters1:09:05

       Okay

   27. AAAli Abdaal1:09:05

       ... is, is interesting. So you click on the app. You do, like, a, a check-in, and then so have a look. So it gives you these four options.

   28. SPSteve Peters1:09:12

       Okay.

   29. AAAli Abdaal1:09:13

       How am I feeling? So it's like high energy, pleasant, high energy, unpleasant, low energy, pleasant. And if you click on one of them-

   30. SPSteve Peters1:09:19

       Yeah
10. 1:13:54 – 1:23:21

    Can we really control our emotions?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:13:54

       one, one distinction that you make is the difference between control and manage.

    2. SPSteve Peters1:13:58

       Massive.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:13:59

       I wonder if you can expand on that.

    4. SPSteve Peters1:14:01

       Yeah. Again- I mean, again, I'd be happy to criticize on the fact that it's semantics, but, uh-

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:14:06

       I think semantics are really important

    6. SPSteve Peters1:14:07

       ... yeah, I think so.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:14:08

       Yeah.

    8. SPSteve Peters1:14:08

       But I think if someone says, for example, "Look, come on, control your emotions," the implication is the word control means you can if you want to, whereas that's unkind because you can't.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:14:18

       Mm.

    10. SPSteve Peters1:14:19

        Manage your emotions is different. Manage means you hope you can do it, but management is a skill. Control is an option.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:14:27

        Ooh, nice.

    12. SPSteve Peters1:14:28

        And that's why I see the difference. So I think when I hear people saying, "Control your emotions," I think that's quite abusive almost to the person, 'cause you're asking them to do something they can't do.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:14:37

        Yeah.

    14. SPSteve Peters1:14:38

        It's like saying, "Jump out the window and fly." You wouldn't do that, and yet to say, "Control your emotions," we can't, otherwise we would. You know, nobody wants to lose it emotionally. So but manage means you've got an option here, and it's a skill. So that's why I'm really pushy to say nobody controls their mind. We manage it, and some days we don't do it well.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:15:01

        Mm.

    16. SPSteve Peters1:15:01

        It's a skill. So... And I get this a lot, have I got a chimp? And I always say, "I've got a gorilla," you know?

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:15:06

        [laughs]

    18. SPSteve Peters1:15:06

        Uh, and I have a chimp, and does it get out? Absolutely. Can I manage it? Usually, usually, 'cause my chimp s- sort of knows the rules.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:15:15

        Mm.

    20. SPSteve Peters1:15:16

        So I work with it. But does that mean it doesn't ever get out? No, it gets out, and I don't want my chimp to be in a box. Again, sometimes it's good for it to come out. I may have to stop it and say, "Stop, stop," but I don't want people to be... I don't want to be a robot.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:15:33

        Yeah.

    22. SPSteve Peters1:15:34

        I don't want to be this person who shows no emotion.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:15:36

        Mm.

    24. SPSteve Peters1:15:36

        You know? But on the other hand, I have to recognize when it's damaging. So if my chimp has a rant, then that could be really helpful for my chimp to just have a rant. As long as the people around me know I'm in chimp mode and I'm ranting and they all ignore me-

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:15:50

        Yeah

    26. SPSteve Peters1:15:50

        ... then I'm happy, and I'll say, "Okay, I've finished ranting." And then I say, "Now, as a human." So I'm not saying we should be in human mode. I'm not saying that.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:15:59

        Yeah.

    28. SPSteve Peters1:15:59

        People keep saying this, and they also keep saying human is logic, chimp is emotion. That's not true either. Both use y- emotion, both use logic. I've always said this. It's just the human starts with logic and bases their emotion on the logic. So I still experience a lot of emotion as a human.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:16:14

        Yeah.

    30. SPSteve Peters1:16:15

        My chimp uses emotion and bases logic on it-
11. 1:23:21 – 1:27:00

    Managing anxiety

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:23:21

       that... So we, we've got like a, a Telegram community around the podcast, and we always ask questions to be like, "Hey, what would you like us to, to talk about?" One topic that always comes about is anxiety.

    2. SPSteve Peters1:23:30

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:23:31

       Um, I think especially increasingly it seems young people experiencing a lot of anxiety, the whole social media comparison that we, we all get into. How do you... I mean, it's a big question, but how do you think about anxiety as it relates to the Chimp Model?

    4. SPSteve Peters1:23:44

       Mm-hmm. Anxiety is a message from the chimp to say, "All is not well." And your job, uh, I say, is to, as a human, is to say, "Right, what is it that's causing the anxiety?" So if you look at where anxiety comes from neuroscientifically-

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:24:01

       Yep

    6. SPSteve Peters1:24:01

       ... uh, it isn't the amygdala. People-

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:24:03

       Oh, it's not? No?

    8. SPSteve Peters1:24:04

       No.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:24:04

       Okay. [laughs]

    10. SPSteve Peters1:24:04

        No, it's not the amygdala. Uh, the amygdala works with fear-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:24:08

        Yeah

    12. SPSteve Peters1:24:08

        ... and it's working with fight, flight, freeze.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:24:10

        Okay.

    14. SPSteve Peters1:24:11

        So if you look close by, there is another nucleus, which it's probably 'cause it's got a bigger name. Uh, so the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis works with fe- with, with anxiety.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:24:21

        Oh.

    16. SPSteve Peters1:24:21

        So this is the area that looks at... Uh, and, and it's interesting that in an emergency situation, it doesn't appear. It doesn't work for about 10 minutes. The amygdala works-

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:24:31

        Mm-hmm

    18. SPSteve Peters1:24:31

        ... to give you fight, flight, freeze.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:24:33

        Yeah.

    20. SPSteve Peters1:24:33

        After about 10 minutes, give or take, it seems to wake up. Now it brings beliefs in.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:24:37

        Yeah.

    22. SPSteve Peters1:24:38

        Now anxiety can be created.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:24:40

        Okay.

    24. SPSteve Peters1:24:40

        So anxiety is based usually around beliefs.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:24:42

        Yep.

    26. SPSteve Peters1:24:43

        It can be based around trigger points and behaviors.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:24:46

        Yep.

    28. SPSteve Peters1:24:47

        So for example, if you see a snake appear in the room, for a lot of people that would create an anxiety. But if you think the reason it's a trigger point, and it's almost inbuilt, um... I think children need to read that 'cause we're told that it's inbuilt from birth. But my experience is, having got rescue animals, children are more keen on touching the snake than they are the rabbit.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:25:07

        [laughs]

    30. SPSteve Peters1:25:07

        So the, so the, but the snake would create anxiety because your belief is it's dangerous.
12. 1:27:00 – 1:31:06

    ADHD and depression

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:27:00

       good. Um, things like ADHD, does that work with the, with, with the model?

    2. SPSteve Peters1:27:08

       Yeah. So again, ADHD is a medical condition. Um, again, there's always debates about is it well diagnosed. Uh, so I'm not gonna go there. I'll say let's assume we've got someone with ADHD. Uh, the easiest way I try and explain this is if you imagine the brain is an orchestra-

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:27:26

       Yep

    4. SPSteve Peters1:27:27

       ... and the conductor is asleep, then it's really noisy. [laughs] Um-

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:27:31

       Yep

    6. SPSteve Peters1:27:31

       ... so we need to wake the conductor up 'cause people always say, "Well, why would you give someone with ADHD amphetamines, which are alerting drugs, when they're already hyperactive?"

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:27:39

       Mm.

    8. SPSteve Peters1:27:39

       And what you're doing is waking up the conductor in the brain, so the parts of the brain that are not active become active, and then they tap the baton, and the orchestra settles down.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:27:48

       Yeah. As in executive function-

    10. SPSteve Peters1:27:50

        Executive function

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:27:50

        ... prefrontal cortex kind of-

    12. SPSteve Peters1:27:51

        Exactly.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:27:52

        Okay.

    14. SPSteve Peters1:27:52

        So and that can be life-changing for people with ADHD. Um, obviously, we'd-- I don't dive in. I'm sure most doctors wouldn't. We try and do it behaviorally 'cause you can-

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:28:02

        Mm

    16. SPSteve Peters1:28:02

        ... with children and adults. But it would be unkind if somebody's brain isn't functioning in the way they want it to, uh, to leave them with that, so you do medicate then.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:28:12

        Mm.

    18. SPSteve Peters1:28:12

        So it's not taken on lightly, but sometimes medication can bring a person to, to life, and they'll say, "It's just a godsend because now I can function."

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:28:21

        Yeah.

    20. SPSteve Peters1:28:21

        "I can form relationships. I can study. I can do a job. You know, I can social-- social settings." So all this I've heard having done these, but my first port of call would be to try and train the mind into the computer system, learning how to behave so the computer starts taking over-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:28:38

        Mm

    22. SPSteve Peters1:28:39

        ... which is what we do with children, not dive into drugs.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:28:42

        Yeah.

    24. SPSteve Peters1:28:42

        But they still work with the Chimp Model.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:28:44

        Mm.

    26. SPSteve Peters1:28:45

        They still work with it. I worked with a very young lad, um, who was suspic- uh, suspected of having ADHD. He didn't have it. Uh, and I decided we'd do this, and he actually pulled his parents in line with the Chimp Model. He did warn them when they were in chimp mode. [laughs]

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:28:59

        [laughs]

    28. SPSteve Peters1:28:59

        So I always say to parents, "If you're gonna use this model with your kids, get ready"

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:29:03

        Yeah. [laughs]

    30. SPSteve Peters1:29:03

        "... 'cause they'll definitely, definitely pull on it."
13. 1:31:06 – 1:37:30

    Being an elite performance coach

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:31:06

       Totally. So, like, my mom's a psychiatrist, for example.

    2. SPSteve Peters1:31:09

       Yeah.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:31:09

       But she's not been called on to consult with the England football team.

    4. SPSteve Peters1:31:12

       Right.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:31:12

       How did, how did the cool stuff happen where, where you ended up working with, like, Ronnie O'Sullivan and, like-

    6. SPSteve Peters1:31:16

       Yeah

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:31:16

       ... Steven Gerrard and, like, these-

    8. SPSteve Peters1:31:17

       Yeah

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:31:18

       ... elite performers?

    10. SPSteve Peters1:31:19

        By accident. Uh, again, I mean, it's-- I've had a very interesting life, and people say to me, "Oh, you've done so many things." It's never been planned. I al- I'm a leaf in the wind.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:31:28

        Mm.

    12. SPSteve Peters1:31:29

        I see where the wind takes me, um, with a little bit of direction. But I was w- working at Sheffield Medical School at the time when one of my previous students took a job, uh, with a cycling team and said, "Look, we've got a guy who's got mental health problems. Can you do me a favor and see him?" And so I went along, saw this guy, and, um, I can only name people that have, you know, gone public, uh, and worked with him, and he did exceptionally well. And so the head of cycling said, "What did you do?" And quite frankly, I didn't know. Uh, I was-

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:31:57

        Yeah

    14. SPSteve Peters1:31:57

        ... I'm a doctor, and I said, "I'm just trying to get it to explain how his mind works." Um, and he gave me, uh, Chris Hoy-

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:32:04

        Mm

    16. SPSteve Peters1:32:04

        ... and said, "We'd like to meet this young man." Uh, and Chris is-- it was a dream to work with. I'm still in touch with Chris, a lovely guy, absolute gentleman. Um, got a very nice chimp as well. [laughs]

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:32:15

        [laughs]

    18. SPSteve Peters1:32:15

        Uh, which is really well-behaved. But Chris knew what he wanted from me, and that set it off. And, and we worked really well as a team. Um, and he worked hard. And he was already in a good place. It, it wasn't about emotions with Chris, it was about performance-

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:32:31

        Yeah

    20. SPSteve Peters1:32:31

        ... and focus and so on. And then he said, "I want you to come to Athens Olympics." So I went undercover, um, and got offered a job with them and refused it-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:32:40

        Oh

    22. SPSteve Peters1:32:40

        ... 'cause I said, you know, "I'm a doctor and I've trained to help people." But there was a moment I thought, you know... I say I'm not a sports fan, but most of Britain are, and, uh, and I realized actually helping people wherever they are-

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:32:52

        Yeah

    24. SPSteve Peters1:32:53

        ... was what I wanna do. And if I can help sports people in whatever areas they want, performance or their life or lifestyle, whatever, then maybe I'm helping the public, too. So it took me a year to jump. So I was at Rampton doing forensic psych, and, uh, I jumped and started working in elite sport, and it just exploded and I got offered jobs everywhere.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:33:15

        Yeah.

    26. SPSteve Peters1:33:15

        And then obviously I had to learn the sports and, uh, been great to get support from, um, other people in the sports who would s- guide me on the, you know, each sport as I came to it.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:33:27

        Yeah.

    28. SPSteve Peters1:33:27

        So I worked very closely with coaches as well as athletes, 'cause I have to learn each environment.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:33:32

        Mm.

    30. SPSteve Peters1:33:32

        So working with Ronnie, uh, obviously he's a friend and I've worked with him over 10 years, and he's a great guy. Um, have to learn the rules of snooker, which again is weird, where you have total silence during play [laughs] as opposed to England football where it's-
14. 1:37:30 – 1:42:33

    Do you need to work out your life plan?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:37:30

       When, when we were in medical school, like there was a real sense of pressure that everyone needs to have figured out their life plan, 'cause there would be like-

    2. SPSteve Peters1:37:38

       Yeah

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:37:38

       ... the handful of kids in the year who'd be already gunning for their ST3 applications in neurosurgery-

    4. SPSteve Peters1:37:43

       Yeah

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:37:43

       ... and already doing all this stuff and publishing-

    6. SPSteve Peters1:37:45

       Yeah

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:37:45

       ... 10 papers, and the rest of us are like, "Ugh."

    8. SPSteve Peters1:37:47

       Yeah.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:37:47

       Can barely get one like letter to editor published, and doesn't even have a PubMed ID so it doesn't count. It's like there's a lot of the mind [laughs] potentially-

    10. SPSteve Peters1:37:54

        Yeah

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:37:54

        ... try- thinking that it has to have a very clear like life plan-

    12. SPSteve Peters1:37:58

        Yeah

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:37:58

        ... I think especially amongst medics who are used to having a-

    14. SPSteve Peters1:38:00

        Yeah

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:38:00

        ... you know, long-term career trajectory. What advice would you give to people who are maybe like finally a medical student thinking like they need to have everything, everything sorted?

    16. SPSteve Peters1:38:10

        Okay. I mean, there is pressure, and I think the trouble is let's say that, I don't know, just make a figure up, 10% of students know exactly what they wanna do. They wanna be, you know, a cardiac surgeon, and that's ... So they're gonna do a PhD and whatever. Don't compare yourself to them. I was in the 10% that thought, at the time I thought GP, so I did do GP training, but, um, then I realized that it probably wasn't for me. Um, so I think the answer is I would suggest they step back, don't compare, and just say, "Why have I come into this profession, and what pathway do I wanna follow?" Because, you know, it, getting through the exams, you just work hard and you get through, and then you find your feet. It's become a little more difficult now because, uh, I'm a dinosaur, and we could form our own rotations. We could jump around, so I could do six months pediatrics, six months obs and gynae. You can't do that now. It's not possible. You have to go down a certain route.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:39:04

        Yeah.

    18. SPSteve Peters1:39:05

        And, and I think that's probably not a good thing with doctors, if I'm honest. Um, because I think my feeling was I did... Like I said, GP taught me a lot, you know, which I wouldn't have got in psyche, I don't think.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:39:17

        Yeah.

    20. SPSteve Peters1:39:17

        Um, and I think jumping around you, you get a lot more of a basis of general medicine, which in, which goes across anything when you're treating people holistically. So I think at the end of the day we are doctors and not super specialists. But I also accept there will be doctors who wanna be super specialists-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:39:32

        Mm

    22. SPSteve Peters1:39:32

        ... who just say, "All I wanna do is this discipline and have an awareness of the rest." So I'd say to medical students, um, first of all, step back and get a bigger picture. Life is gonna go on whatever you do, [laughs] and you'll get through whatever you do. And, like, from my example, I know I'm extreme, uh, you've no idea what opportunities are coming. And when you get out there, suddenly opportunities will unfold. And the NHS is shifting ground, and hopefully we can get it together properly.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:39:57

        Yeah.

    24. SPSteve Peters1:39:57

        Uh, and it will be more doctor-friendly. I don't think it is at the moment. Um, but it's probably not friendly for everybody. Uh, so if we get that, it's gonna change the landscape again. So just live in the moment and just-

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:40:09

        Mm

    26. SPSteve Peters1:40:09

        ... do what you do.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:40:11

        And what's your, like, when it comes to, like let's say you're going through your career and you've got, like, opportunity A or B or C, and it's like each, each will take you down a different path that's-

    28. SPSteve Peters1:40:20

        Yeah

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:40:20

        ... sort of hard to imagine. What sort of frameworks or systems do you use for making decisions in that context of which path you, you wanna go down?

    30. SPSteve Peters1:40:27

        It's almost difficult because, um, if you inspire people, say I get medicals students and I inspire them, and they say, "I wanna be a psychiatrist," you, you've inspired them, and maybe anyone could. I could've been an, you know, obstetrician, and they'd say, "Oh, I wanna be an obstetrician"-
15. 1:42:33 – 1:47:44

    Does success lead to happiness?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:42:33

       one thing I'm curious about, so you've, um, I guess, coached or spoken to a lot of people who by external metrics are rich and famous and successful and have won the medals and-

    2. SPSteve Peters1:42:42

       Yeah

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:42:42

       ... all that stuff. To what extent is there a relationship between those external markers of success and, like, happiness, fulfillment, that-

    4. SPSteve Peters1:42:52

       Yeah

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:42:52

       ... those, those things?

    6. SPSteve Peters1:42:54

       I mean, it's common sense that if you s- sat there with someone who's a multi-billionaire or, you know, the chance of them being happy is a bit higher than someone who's really worrying where their next meal's coming from.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:43:05

       Sure.

    8. SPSteve Peters1:43:06

       It's blatantly obvious. So when people say money doesn't make you happy, that's true, but blimey, it goes a long way.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:43:12

       [laughs]

    10. SPSteve Peters1:43:12

        So, so, you know, the real world is we have to make money to just survive, and then it, it does give us the extra things. Um, however, however, yeah, I mean, I've worked with the whole spectrum. So I've worked with people who are, you know, at one point worked with down-and-outs years back, uh, and who were struggling and just on the street. And, you know, I will work with anyone who comes to the door and say, "Let's work within what your life's offering you and what you can do." You know? Uh, but do I get people who are really rich, uh, and unhappy? Absolutely. You know? Uh, because again, the chimp may be happy with what they've got, but the human's looking for something much more meaningful. So if they're all chimp, then that person's probably gonna always be happy, 'cause some people stay in chimp mode.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:43:58

        Mm.

    12. SPSteve Peters1:43:58

        If they're someone who's much more human than they are chimp, then this achievement can disillusion them.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:44:04

        Yeah.

    14. SPSteve Peters1:44:04

        You know? And then they'll be, they come to me and say, "I just feel unfulfilled. I just feel life's empty." And it often is the case they're in chimp mode and trying to get into human, and there's nothing there. And we have to look at then at what their values are, what are they doing it for? A bit like we said a minute ago with the medical students, you've got to ask, why did you come into medicine?

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:44:23

        Mm.

    16. SPSteve Peters1:44:24

        You know, and if it was to help people, then- Why are you worrying about whether you got on a rotation or... You'll get to help people.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:44:32

        Yeah.

    18. SPSteve Peters1:44:32

        You know? So step back and get the bigger picture. So the answer to your question about the richness, of course it helps 'cause people don't have to worry about certain things. Uh, but I still get rich businessmen who come in worrying and worrying, and they're doing so well in terms of their method of success.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:44:49

        Yep.

    20. SPSteve Peters1:44:50

        But then they'll talk about, "I don't relate to my daughter." And they'll say, "How do I get her to love me? I can't communicate. How-"

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:44:57

        Mm.

    22. SPSteve Peters1:44:58

        And you think, "This is so sad." And then you see, you know, money doesn't buy that. So sometimes people do come in and it's not what you think.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:45:07

        Yeah.

    24. SPSteve Peters1:45:07

        But I get why people who are struggling with money might look and be resentful, and think, "Well, it's easy for them to come in and say that because, you know-

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:45:16

        Sure

    26. SPSteve Peters1:45:16

        ... they have no money problems." Tough one.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:45:20

        One, well, one thing I read about recently is, m- yeah, they w- they called it, they called it gold medal syndrome, which is once you've, once you've won the gold medal, at that point you're like, "Oh, well-

    28. SPSteve Peters1:45:29

        Yeah

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:45:29

        ... I've kind of won the game now."

    30. SPSteve Peters1:45:31

        Yeah.
16. 1:47:44 – 1:52:39

    Figuring out your values

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:47:44

       what your values are?

    2. SPSteve Peters1:47:45

       That's really difficult because whenever I say this to people, because I, I, I push this point and I try to keep things very black and white just to make it accessible.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:47:53

       Yeah.

    4. SPSteve Peters1:47:54

       That if we look at peace of mind, that's the, the only thing that gives people peace of mind, not happiness, peace of mind, so your rest, is your values and living them out.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:48:03

       Mm.

    6. SPSteve Peters1:48:03

       So defining your values is never easy, and there's so many different ways people say what is a value. So I go through this a bit, uh, when I'm working with people, is I say to them, "A value is a moral stance that you're taking. It's what the right thing is in your eyes. It's doing the right thing, but it's an action attached to it."

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:48:22

       Mm.

    8. SPSteve Peters1:48:22

       So for example, when people say, "One of my values is respecting other people, and if I respect them, I feel good. If I disrespect somebody, I feel bad." So there's your peace of mind lost.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:48:32

       Yeah.

    10. SPSteve Peters1:48:32

        Right? And you can gain it back. Apologies never go wrong.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:48:35

        Mm.

    12. SPSteve Peters1:48:35

        Um, so I say to them, "Well, how do you demonstrate respect?" And what they don't know is how to demonstrate it.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:48:42

        Yeah.

    14. SPSteve Peters1:48:42

        So I try and help them to clarify it and say, "Let's give you some ideas." So one of the ones is, is, is listening to someone. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but it does mean you have to understand them. So you give them space. You don't have to agree, but you have to make sure they, they get that you understand and respect that opinion. Now, that, if they say, "Yeah, that would be respect," they learn to do it. So I ask people when I'm working with them to actually count how many times in the week, say I would see them in a week's time, how many times you demonstrate respect by stopping the, "No, stop. I need to listen to you first, but I need to listen, and I need to check I've understood, right? Then I'll discuss it." That's an example of a value in action.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:49:26

        Mm.

    16. SPSteve Peters1:49:26

        So, uh, for me, I like values in action because at the end of the day, whatever life's throwing at you, I ask people, "Look in the mirror and say, 'Did I live by my values today? Am I proud of the person that's sat in front of me?'" Because that can override, once you start doing that, things like, uh, "Did I do well in an exam?" Or, "What do people think of me?" It can override all of that.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:49:49

        Mm. And to what extent do you find... Like, there are some values that are, I guess, more selfish values, and some that are more-

    18. SPSteve Peters1:49:58

        Yeah

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:49:58

        ... like service oriented.

    20. SPSteve Peters1:50:00

        Yeah.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:50:01

        Like for me, I find, like when whenever I do a values finding exercise or anything, like freedom and autonomy often come fairly high on the list.

    22. SPSteve Peters1:50:08

        Yeah.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:50:08

        And that's a very selfish value. It's like, I want the freedom to do whatever I want, and like to be able to not do things I don't wanna do and stuff. And it's, you know, I've... I know, I know a few people who are older than me who are, who are like, "Yeah, when I was in my 20s, I also had freedom as a value, and then I got a family and I realized there were more important things." How do you... W- what do you see as the, as the balance between kind of, I guess, yeah, these self-oriented values-

    24. SPSteve Peters1:50:30

        Yeah

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:50:30

        ... versus other-oriented values?

    26. SPSteve Peters1:50:31

        On the individual, you, you, you hit a number of points there. One is that we have a hierarchy of values. Um, and you have to work out what your hierarchy is, but that can shift, and your values can shift

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:50:42

        Mm

    28. SPSteve Peters1:50:42

        ... you know? Uh, and because they may shift on your beliefs

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:50:46

        Mm.

    30. SPSteve Peters1:50:47

        You know? So if your value is I will always help someone who asks for help, that is a value I hold.
17. 1:52:39 – 1:55:43

    Final words of wisdom

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:52:39

       Steve, I think that's a, that's a great place to end this. Thank you so much. Um, any final, uh, words of wisdom or recommendations for anyone who's listened to the last two hours of this and has gotten all the way through? [laughs]

    2. SPSteve Peters1:52:48

       Yeah. Um, I think at the beginning I said it was self-evident if you get in a good place, then obviously you're better with yourself and everyone around you. Everyone benefits. It's how you get in that good place. I came in as someone a bit left field into this, uh, and saying, "This is the way I feel I can work with people."

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:53:07

       Yeah.

    4. SPSteve Peters1:53:07

       It's not for everyone. But I would say if people agree that are listening, find a model or therapy or something that works for you, and then work on it. All I'm saying, everyone in the field's saying the same. Get yourself in a good place. How you do it is up to you. Just make sure it's something that resonates with you and is constructive. But, uh, that's all I'm asking people. Stop in their tracks and think, "Hang on. Step back." Don't spend your life and then end up, you know, at the end of your life looking back thinking why or why or why.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:53:37

       Yeah.

    6. SPSteve Peters1:53:37

       Whatever stage you're at in life, it's always good to stop and think, "Hang on. Let me look at the bigger picture."

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:53:43

       Fantastic. And then if someone's gone through this and they want to find out more about your work, um, what's... Like who would you recommend go through A Path through the Jungle?

    8. SPSteve Peters1:53:51

       If someone resonates, they can have a look at it. Um, A Path through the Jungle is, um, a course. It's what I wrote because I thought people wanted something that was, um, something they can follow, chew over, and take time on, so it's a-

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:54:06

       Yeah

    10. SPSteve Peters1:54:06

        ... quite a big book.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:54:07

        Yeah.

    12. SPSteve Peters1:54:08

        Um, but I was expecting, like I said earlier, to be over a year, uh, roughly, but people sometimes go quick. But I would recommend if you resonate with this, do the exercises and take your time.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:54:18

        Yeah.

    14. SPSteve Peters1:54:18

        Don't rush. Um, if you want to work with people and you resonate, then we do, as I'm not trying to promote, [laughs] we really need to help people, but we do do a, uh, an eight workshop series online. So you can do it online and join about 20 other or 30 people with a mentor who'll take you through this and highlight the points and give you work to do and discussion, 'cause some people like to reflect with others.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:54:41

        Yeah.

    16. SPSteve Peters1:54:41

        So, but a- as I said, there's, there's a lot of stuff online that people could do individually, and there's a lot of stuff. We run like conferences and fun stuff. Uh, we have fun away days. We've got one coming up, uh, a Dracula hunt.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:54:53

        Oh. [laughs]

    18. SPSteve Peters1:54:53

        Say no more. Go online if you're interested. Uh, it's on our website. But it was just to show people life's about fun as well as learning. You know? Um, it's not all about being very therapeutic and analytical.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:55:05

        Yeah.

    20. SPSteve Peters1:55:05

        Get a sense of humor.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:55:07

        Brilliant.

    22. SPSteve Peters1:55:07

        Okay.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:55:08

        So we'll, we'll put links to everything down in the video description or in the show notes, wherever you're watching this. Steve, thank you so much.

    24. SPSteve Peters1:55:11

        Thank you.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:55:13

        All right. So that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode. So thanks for watching. Uh, do hit the subscribe button if you aren't already, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.

Episode duration: 1:55:43