Navigating Quarter-Life Crisis: Unpacking the Psychology of Your 20s - Jemma Sbeghen

1. 0:00 – 1:34

   Intro

   1. JSJemma Sbeghen0:00

      It's really easy to see that that life that you want will still be possible if you start at 30. [laughs] Your 20s are about being able to feel lost and be comfortable with that feeling and try out a couple of different things. It's all right to feel lost

   2. AAAli Abdaal0:14

      Hello, and welcome back to Deep Dive, the weekly podcast where every week it's my immense privilege to sit down with authors, academics, entrepreneurs, and creators, and other inspiring people, and we talk about how they got to where they are and the strategies and tools we can learn from them to help build a life that we love. Today I'm joined by Jemma Sbeghen. Jemma is the podcast host of The Psychology Of Your 20s, the podcast that talks through some of the big life challenges and changes of your 20s and what they mean for our psychology.

   3. JSJemma Sbeghen0:37

      The thing that also links to this quarter-life crisis is the, is this idea that the decisions that we make now are going to be the sole reason for our happiness in the future, and that is not the case because your life is going to go a million different directions in a blink of an eye.

   4. AAAli Abdaal0:53

      Now, when I let our podcast community know that Jemma was coming on the pod and asked them to send in the challenges they're facing during their 20s, the thing that really stood out is this feeling that as we transition into adulthood, it can feel like you're on a bit of a hamster wheel of trying to balance all these different aspects of your life.

   5. JSJemma Sbeghen1:05

      One of my good friends said this to me the other day. I have no idea where I'm gonna be in like five years' time or 10 years or when I'm 50. And if I continue to work in my nine-to-five, I would know. I would know that, you know, you move up between... You move up the ranks, your pay increases, you have a family, all those things, right? And what she said to me, and it really stuck with me, was

   6. AAAli Abdaal1:27

      Jemma, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?

   7. JSJemma Sbeghen1:29

      I'm doing so well, thank you so much for having me on. I'm very excited to chat with you today.

2. 1:34 – 6:30

   What is a quarter life crisis?

   1. AAAli Abdaal1:34

      Okay. So you are the expert on the psychology of your 20s. Um-

   2. JSJemma Sbeghen1:38

      [laughs]

   3. AAAli Abdaal1:38

      ... and one thing that often comes up when people talk about that is this idea of a quarter-life crisis.

   4. JSJemma Sbeghen1:42

      Oh, yeah.

   5. AAAli Abdaal1:43

      So what is a quarter-life crisis, and yeah, how do we, how do we think about that term?

   6. JSJemma Sbeghen1:46

      Yeah. So the term quarter-life crisis, I think we need to think about it in the context of a midlife crisis, right? That was the first idea that kind of came before the quarter-life crisis, and we think about it a lot in terms of a lot of men reach... You know, they, they reach middle age and they go and buy like a red convertible or they get like a younger girlfriend. That's a very outdated idea. We're seeing that earlier and earlier people are having these kinds of crises or forks in the road where they have to make these massive decisions or they feel like they do, and what that creates is a sense of anxiety, a sense of dread, a sense of stress, and then sometimes a sense of needing to be spontaneous and to take a risk. So essentially, the quarter-life crisis occurs between the ages of around 20 to 30, and it involves someone experiencing this sense of, "What am I doing with my life, and where to next?" So that's essentially the idea that we're talking about today.

   7. AAAli Abdaal2:51

      And this seems to be a relatively modern phenomenon. Like, what do you think is, is driving it so prevalent? Like, I, I guess in the last sort of 5 to 10 years I've been hearing about this, but I guess feel like in the early 2000s it, it probably wasn't really a thing.

   8. JSJemma Sbeghen3:04

      Yeah. That's actually such an interesting question, 'cause I've been thinking about this a lot as well. And I think if we take it back even further to like the 1950s, the 1960s, there was this very almost narrow blueprint of what our lives would look like. We went to high school, we graduated, went to university, picked up our life partner, got a great job, nine-to-five, bought a house, had children, retirement, death.

   9. AAAli Abdaal3:31

      [laughs]

   10. JSJemma Sbeghen3:32

       And that's really depressing, right? But it was very narrow, and I think as we entered into the early 2000s a few things happened, and the first was of course the accessibility of the internet and social media. And suddenly not only did all these new career pathways become available, a lot more opportunities for entrepreneurship, but then we also had this element of being able to look at what everyone else was doing with their lives and compare to that. So we see people now who are traveling the world, people like you and I who are doing this for a living. It's very unconventional, I would say. Uh, or we see people who are working the, the traditional nine-to-fives. We have this very amazing spectrum of things that we can compare ourselves to, and I think that kind of flips this switch where we're like, "Oh my goodness, what am I doing?" And then to further that, we're also seeing things like a lot of environmental factors, right? Like, or external factors, like we have a recession coming up. We're not gonna deny that. There's all this uncertainty around the climate, around our f- financial situation, around financial security, and what that creates is a lot of anxiety around, "Okay, I need to be future prepared, but then I also wanna have fun because this is my 20s and everyone tells me this narrative of you should take risks, you should make mistakes." So that's kind of this friction point where it's... I almost imagine it kind of like a tree and all throughout like our teens and, and our young years it's going the same direction, and then suddenly we're like, "Oh, there's actually... I'm in charge now. I'm this... I get to make these decisions. [laughs] There are all these people that I can compare myself to, and there's all these new careers and all these new options, but then also this, these like, these little thoughts in my brain and these external factors that are challenging that" and it's kind of like the tree just goes like boof-

   11. AAAli Abdaal5:25

       Mm

   12. JSJemma Sbeghen5:25

       ... and we can't really see where everything's going and where that will take us.

   13. AAAli Abdaal5:28

       Yeah.

   14. JSJemma Sbeghen5:28

       Sorry, that was a, a bit of a ramble, but I hope that makes it clear.

   15. AAAli Abdaal5:31

       Absolutely. Yeah. So, um, o- one thing I've heard from a lot of people is... And I think when we polled our, um, podcast community about this, one thing that really came up was people feeling lost.

   16. JSJemma Sbeghen5:41

       Yeah. Yeah. And maybe I should have said that earlier, but that's essentially I think all of those feelings wrapped up in one title, in one word would be the feel- like would, being lost, would be the feeling of being lost, right? And I think that all comes down to this expectation that you need to be on the right path right now, you need to have everything figured out right now, and that is not the case. And I think in our 20s we are bombarded by all of these life choices that we need to make. We were talking about some before, right? Should I move to a new country? Should I go and do my doctorate degree? Should I just quit my job and go traveling? And all of those things paralyze us because we're overcome by this thing called the paradox of choice. And I also think this is something that's come up

3. 6:30 – 12:57

   The paradox of choice

   1. JSJemma Sbeghen6:30

      a lot more in, in the last, like, 20, 30 years. We're presented with so many options, which is a good thing, that it paralyzes us and we're, we can't even make one. And there was this really interesting experiment they did on this. A little bit of a tangent, but these, uh, psychologists from Stanford, they went to the farmers market and they set up a stall for jam. And on day one, they had 27 jams for sale, and on day two they only had five. And y- we think... And they wanted to see how many, how many times people purchased the jam. And on the second day, when people only had five options, their sales were, like, up 300%. And it shows us that we actually don't want as many choices as we think that we do, and when we do have more choices, we're less likely to act on those, and we feel lost because we're unsure of whether we're gonna make the right decision. So that's another kind of psychological element behind this experience.

   2. AAAli Abdaal7:27

      I guess part of this, this feeling of feeling lost or directionless is this idea of needing to have sorted out, like, your ideal life.

   3. JSJemma Sbeghen7:36

      Yeah.

   4. AAAli Abdaal7:36

      Like, I've, I've heard a lot of people say that, like, "Oh, I don't know what to do with my life." And, and, and the implication there is that that is a really bad thing.

   5. JSJemma Sbeghen7:44

      Yeah.

   6. AAAli Abdaal7:44

      Um, and sometimes even, like, when I talk to my mum, she will say that... She'll look at my career and say that, like, I don't have any direction in my career or something like that.

   7. JSJemma Sbeghen7:52

      That's so funny. [laughs]

   8. AAAli Abdaal7:53

      And I'll kind of be like, "That is true, but it's also not necessarily a bad thing." But at the same time, the phrase, "You have no direction in your career," is definitely a negative rather than-

   9. JSJemma Sbeghen8:00

      Mm

   10. AAAli Abdaal8:00

       ... "Oh, you don't have any direction in your career. Well done, you."

   11. JSJemma Sbeghen8:03

       Yeah.

   12. AAAli Abdaal8:03

       Yeah. How do you, how d- Yeah. What's, what are your, what are your thoughts on that?

   13. JSJemma Sbeghen8:07

       I really, I really like this, this train of thought here-

   14. AAAli Abdaal8:10

       Mm

   15. JSJemma Sbeghen8:10

       ... because I think about this a lot. Uh, I think that a lack of direction is, comes off very negative, but it also means an abundance of opportunity, and that's something that we need to realize. And one of my good friends said this to me the other day, because I recently started doing my own show full time. It was a massive risk for me. I took a massive, like, step away from the financial security that my nine-to-five offered me. I did something a little bit against the grain. And the thing that really, like, struck me was because this path is unconventional, I have no idea... Like, podcasting hasn't really existed for that long, right? I have no idea where I'm gonna be in, like, 5 years' time or 10 years or when I'm 50.

   16. AAAli Abdaal8:53

       Yeah.

   17. JSJemma Sbeghen8:53

       And if I continue to work in my nine-to-five, I would know. I would know that, you know, you move up between... You move up the ranks, your pay increases, you have a family, all those things, right? And what she said to me, and it really stuck with me, was, "Stop trying to imagine what your life looks like down to the detail and just imagine how you want your life to feel like on an average Monday afternoon." And I was like, "Wow, that is so profound." She was like, "Picture yourself at 50, and what are you doing on a Monday night? And what does that entail?" Because you're not going to be thinking about all the, all the milestones that you hit. You're not gonna be thinking about all the successful things that you've done. You're not going to be putting the pressure on yourself to meet all these certain, you know, goals. Instead, when you think about it that way, you just think about, "What kind of life do I want to be living? What emotions do I want to be feeling?" And you acknowledge that there will be multiple paths to get there, and I think that that's very liberating, right?

   18. AAAli Abdaal9:51

       Mm.

   19. JSJemma Sbeghen9:51

       So I said to her, like, "I would want to be living in a big city, and I'd want to be having people over for dinner that I'd met, you know, in various places. Maybe I'd have a few people living with me who I'd picked up along the way, friends, family, random acquaintances. And I want to be able to come back and talk to my friends or talk to my partner about an amazing day that I had, and I want to feel loved and I want to feel happy. And it doesn't matter what happened before that, as long as I'm in that spot." And I think that is a much better frame of mind to be in rather than to look at your life as a series of milestones that you need to hit or a series of decisions that you need to make and a correct way of going about your 20s and then also your broader life. Does that make sense?

   20. AAAli Abdaal10:36

       Oh my God, that's such a good way of thinking about it. Like, I-

   21. JSJemma Sbeghen10:38

       Can you... What's yours? Can you picture what you want when you're 50? Monday night at 50.

   22. AAAli Abdaal10:42

       Yeah. I think mine is broadly similar, um, in that the feelings that I would want is a feeling that I've spent the day, you know, still working, uh-

   23. JSJemma Sbeghen10:54

       Mm

   24. AAAli Abdaal10:54

       ... 'cause I, I enjoyed, I enjoy working. But feeling like the work was interesting. I had autonomy and independence. I could kind of do what I wanted. Maybe I learnt something interesting.

   25. JSJemma Sbeghen11:02

       Yeah.

   26. AAAli Abdaal11:02

       Maybe I shared something interesting, because for me, teaching and sharing is, like, a big part of what brings me fulfillment. And then, yeah, go home or stay home, uh, in the evening, have friends over for dinner. Um, living in a place where it's very easy for friends to hang out and maybe have a family-

   27. JSJemma Sbeghen11:16

       Yeah

   28. AAAli Abdaal11:16

       ... and kids and all that kind of stuff. That's the sort of feeling that I would want. If I imagine people I know at 50 who have, who are, like, working in medicine, for example, and the feelings that that seems to invoke in them around, like, the day job-

   29. JSJemma Sbeghen11:30

       Mm

   30. AAAli Abdaal11:30

       ... that feels like the opposite to what I would, I would want.
4. 12:57 – 16:20

   Life is a picture but you live in a pixel

   1. AAAli Abdaal12:57

      this reminds me, um, have you come across Tim Urban's blog post on Wait-

   2. JSJemma Sbeghen13:00

      No

   3. AAAli Abdaal13:00

      ... or w- he's, he's got an amazing blog, uh, Wait But Why. Uh, and there's a blog post in that that it's titled something like, Life is a picture, but you live in a pixel.

   4. JSJemma Sbeghen13:09

      [gasps] Whoa.

   5. AAAli Abdaal13:11

      And the way he describes it is like-

   6. JSJemma Sbeghen13:12

      That's so good

   7. AAAli Abdaal13:12

      ... you know, you imagine, like, Mark Zuckerberg, and you think about the picture of his life. Like, oh, he must be really happy. He's, like, rich, and he's, like, powerful and stuff, and-

   8. JSJemma Sbeghen13:20

      Yeah

   9. AAAli Abdaal13:20

      ... you think of it in those broad brushstrokes. But if... But, like, Mark Zuckerberg and everyone else is living in a single pixel.

   10. JSJemma Sbeghen13:26

       Yeah.

   11. AAAli Abdaal13:26

       They wake up. They, like, have breakfast, like, go to the gym, do some work, come home, hang out with the kids, maybe see some friends. Like, that is the day-to-day.

   12. JSJemma Sbeghen13:34

       Yeah.

   13. AAAli Abdaal13:35

       And it's very easy for us to imagine that happiness is found in the, in the, in the whole picture.

   14. JSJemma Sbeghen13:40

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AAAli Abdaal13:40

       In, like, like, oh, I'll be this successful, and I'll be doing this kind of job. But actually, every single day, day to day, we're gonna be living in the pixels.

   16. JSJemma Sbeghen13:47

       Yeah.

   17. AAAli Abdaal13:47

       And so we shouldn't over-index on what the broader picture looks like, but actually try and think about what, a, a... You know, he says exactly this thing. What, what are the feelings we wanna have in the pixel?

   18. JSJemma Sbeghen13:56

       Yeah, I love that, and it's so interesting 'cause when we think about the pixel as well, I think it also links to this broader idea of almost the pressure to be successful as well and thinking that that's going to make us happy.

   19. AAAli Abdaal14:10

       Hmm.

   20. JSJemma Sbeghen14:10

       And I think it's really worthwhile to have big goals, and, like, having something that you're good at is amazing, but when you think about people like Mark Zuckerberg or whoever you wanna have in mind, um, they're not going through life thinking every second of their waking life, "I'm so successful. I'm so successful. My life is perfect." Mark Zuckerberg, like, you talk about that day, and all I could think about was like, oh yeah, and then he probably got a parking fine, or he burned his eggs in the morning, or-

   21. AAAli Abdaal14:36

       Yeah

   22. JSJemma Sbeghen14:36

       ... the person who makes them for him did, [laughs] or, like, or you know, his kids were really, were screaming, and he had an argument with his wife. Like, I think that the thing that also links to this quarter-life crisis is the, is this idea that the decisions that we make now are going to be the sole reason for our happiness in the future and the sole determinant of our happiness, the, like, the sole determinant of our happiness in the future. And that is not the case because your life is going to go a million different directions in a blink of an eye. So many things are going to happen, and I think it's this huge myth that I don't know where it came from, that, that we need to know what we're doing in our 20s and the life we create in this decade is somehow going to contribute to, you know, our overall happiness in, in the rest of our lives. Like, I, I think that you're allowed to treat your life as if it's a discrete moment. Every moment is a discrete moment. Every decade is a discrete decade. The decisions you make in your 20s, yes, some of them will bleed on. If you decide to go to medical school, you're in debt. You've... That's a lot of hours spent, right? But also, you can change at any point. You can change your life. You can change what you wanna be doing and what the meaning of happiness kind of means for you as well.

   23. AAAli Abdaal15:45

       Hmm. So just on that note, it sound like we, we, we, we talked earlier about the... There's almost these two different narratives that we have about our 20s. One narrative is it's, it's your 20s. It's for exploration. Like, you know, it's all good.

   24. JSJemma Sbeghen16:01

       Yeah.

   25. AAAli Abdaal16:01

       And the other narrative is actually your 20s is for building up some kind of structure and for getting ahead in your career and for-

   26. JSJemma Sbeghen16:06

       Mm

   27. AAAli Abdaal16:06

       ... starting to grow your income because by the time you're in your 30s and you settle down and start having kids, you'll be really glad that you actually grinded in your 20s, which unlocks more freedom and more autonomy and more, like, ability-

   28. JSJemma Sbeghen16:18

       Yeah

   29. AAAli Abdaal16:18

       ... to spend time with your kids, whereas if you screwed

5. 16:20 – 29:00

   The different narratives of your 20s

   1. AAAli Abdaal16:20

      around in your 20s, now you're 30 and working in an entry-level job and getting-

   2. JSJemma Sbeghen16:24

      Mm

   3. AAAli Abdaal16:24

      ... home at 8:00 PM and unable to spend time with your kids 'cause you haven't got enough money kind of stuff.

   4. JSJemma Sbeghen16:27

      Yeah.

   5. AAAli Abdaal16:28

      And both of those seem fairly compelling to me, like-

   6. JSJemma Sbeghen16:31

      I know. It's hard-

   7. AAAli Abdaal16:32

      Yeah

   8. JSJemma Sbeghen16:32

      ... right?

   9. AAAli Abdaal16:32

      How do you, how do you think about this?

   10. JSJemma Sbeghen16:33

       So I think that you can have both, and I know it's really hard to say that, but you know, I, I had a 9:00 to 5:00 job up until very recently, and I, I think that we have this very... I, 'cause I get both, right? 'Cause I get the idea of being like, "I want to ensure my future is one that is secure," and all of those things, but then I also wanna have fun. And it's such a self-limiting belief to think that it's an either... It's a, it's, it's kind of black and white, right?

   11. AAAli Abdaal17:03

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JSJemma Sbeghen17:03

       Like, either you choose this path or you choose the other. There are so many moments in the day that are yours to create and yours to make good and f- for you to create memories in those. And you can pursue financial security. You can pursue the beginnings of a very fruitful career while still allowing yourself time to take risks, still allowing yourself time to go and explore and to travel, and I think it's all about this balance and also consistency. So I'm gonna give a personal anecdote here because I really can only speak to my experience, but I finished uni. I went straight into consulting, which I feel like a lot of people do, right? Consulting was this very broad stroke career idea. It was very structured. I was like, "I can do this." And for a while there, I was like, "All right. This is the path that we've chosen. I'm gonna start saving money. I want a house by the time I'm 27 so that I can set up for my future." And I did that for a while, but at the same time, I was doing my podcast, right, on the side, and I was using some of those extra hours that we get in a day to feed into my creativity and to take a bit of a risks and do something that I enjoyed. And slowly but surely, that actually begun to- ... overtake [laughs] the nine to five. So it's about achieving balance by allowing yourself time to pursue the other things. If you've decided that your nine to five or your career is your main focus, um, where does, where does your life fit in with that? And when I say life, I mean, like, the important things about life. I mean, where do your friends fit in? Where do your memories fit in? Where does your family fit in? Where does love fit in? Where does all those beautiful, joyful things fit into that equation? Or if you're someone who is like, "I'm gonna go and travel. I'm going to go and experience the world," I think it's... You gotta understand that at some point there will be some responsibilities that are going to come up that might jeopardize that.

   13. AAAli Abdaal19:01

       Hmm.

   14. JSJemma Sbeghen19:01

       You don't need to think about them now, but just have, like, a vague idea of what that is, and maybe do some things in that time around your traveling to set up for the future. Like, go and get a diploma or get some, uh, make a tangible investment in your future self. So maybe that's setting up, um, some kind of... I don't know. I don't do investing, so [laughs] I'm not gonna give financial advice. But maybe, like, set up a portfolio or something like that, um, or invest in your education, or invest in some kind of unique skill that you can bring to the table, that when you decide maybe it's time to settle down, you have that to fall back on, right? I think it's this balance. You don't have to, you don't have to choose one or the other, and that's it for the rest of your life.

   15. AAAli Abdaal19:47

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JSJemma Sbeghen19:48

       How does that sit with you? Because I know that you, you were a doctor, right?

   17. AAAli Abdaal19:51

       Yeah.

   18. JSJemma Sbeghen19:52

       And then you decided to do something else.

   19. AAAli Abdaal19:55

       Yeah. Yeah, I think I broadly vibe with the idea of balance.

   20. JSJemma Sbeghen19:59

       Mm-hmm.

   21. AAAli Abdaal20:00

       And I, I've, I've always regre- I've always rejected the kind of black or white thinking.

   22. JSJemma Sbeghen20:07

       Yeah.

   23. AAAli Abdaal20:07

       Like, even at m- at medical school, like, when I started diving into productivity and the psychology of, like, achievement and motivation and success and stuff-

   24. JSJemma Sbeghen20:14

       Mm

   25. AAAli Abdaal20:14

       ... I would come across things that were like, um, lionizing discipline and hard work and work ethic.

   26. JSJemma Sbeghen20:21

       Yeah.

   27. AAAli Abdaal20:21

       And there's a quote from Muhammad Ali where he says something like, um, you know, "I hated every minute of training, but I said, 'Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'"

   28. JSJemma Sbeghen20:30

       Yeah.

   29. AAAli Abdaal20:30

       And I thought, like, "That, that doesn't seem like a particularly fun way to spend my university years."

   30. JSJemma Sbeghen20:33

       No. [laughs]
6. 29:00 – 31:10

   Friendships are the most important relationships in our 20s

   1. AAAli Abdaal29:00

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7. 31:10 – 34:55

   Loneliness and alonement

   1. AAAli Abdaal31:10

      free share worth up to £100. It's available on iPhone and Android, and you can check it out by typing in Trading 212 into your respective app store. So thank you so much, Trading 212, for sponsoring this episode. I guess we're both kind of on the same page that-

   2. JSJemma Sbeghen31:22

      Mm

   3. AAAli Abdaal31:23

      ... really, you know, this, this question that we're trying to answer is, like, how do we navigate our 20s? It's like, it's, it's really all about balance.

   4. JSJemma Sbeghen31:28

      Yeah.

   5. AAAli Abdaal31:28

      Like, you don't wanna completely- ... screw up your career for the sake of chasing heroin or whatever.

   6. JSJemma Sbeghen31:33

      Yeah

   7. AAAli Abdaal31:34

      Uh, but also you don't wanna completely screw up your [laughs] your 20s by grinding all the hours at the investment bank and not actually-

   8. JSJemma Sbeghen31:40

      Yeah

   9. AAAli Abdaal31:40

      ... having the time for anything else in your life. Um, one thing I wanted to, wanted to ask you about is, um, habits that you think, kind of based on your research and the people you've talked to-

   10. JSJemma Sbeghen31:52

       Mm

   11. AAAli Abdaal31:52

       ... habits that are useful to develop in your 20s. So I guess when we're thinking about how to navigate our 20s, there's a few, like, broad categories. There is relationships, there is career, there's sort of work-life balance-

   12. JSJemma Sbeghen32:04

       Mm

   13. AAAli Abdaal32:04

       ... that kind of stuff. Um, there's, I guess, confidence, finding your true self, like understanding what, what you personally vibe with, and then I guess health is, is a fifth.

   14. JSJemma Sbeghen32:13

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AAAli Abdaal32:14

       So I wonder if we can just kind of blitz through these in turn, and I'd love to get your take on, on each of these-

   16. JSJemma Sbeghen32:17

       Yeah

   17. AAAli Abdaal32:17

       ... five categories. So starting with relationships, um, what do you think people struggle with most in their 20s when it comes to relationships?

   18. JSJemma Sbeghen32:25

       Oh my goodness. Um, I'm gonna take relationships to be relatively broad. I think we often think about romantic partners, but I think that our friendships are the most important relationships that we have in our 20s, more so than any other decade. You know, our early, early childhood years and our teens, it's family. Most of us meet a partner by, in our 30s and 40s, then it becomes the partner, then it becomes the kids, right? But our 20s are like friendships galore. But I think the thing that people struggle with is, have I found the right people in my life, and am I investing in the right people in my life? And, and part of that is also to do with loneliness, right? And, and feeling lonely and feeling like you don't have the right people around you. So I think, like, a massive habit around that is it links to understanding that you r- most people are never really truly alone, and that being lonely and feeling alone, being alone and feeling lonely are very different things. So the thing that I do is that you need to make plans with your friends or almost create a schedule for yourself to spend quality uninterrupted time with the people that you care about at least two to three times a week, and make that a non-negotiable. Not only is it going to really improve your mental health, but additionally, it's going to kind of circum- it's gonna kind of circumnavigate or avoid [laughs] that feeling that we are alone and that we're lonely, 'cause I know that's something that people really, really struggle with. So that's like my first relationship habit. Make time for your friends and make it tangible so that you can follow it. So two to three times a week, I want like two hours of your time devoted to something that feeds into your relationship needs.

   19. AAAli Abdaal34:17

       Mm. I'm glad you bring this up, 'cause when we asked in our podcast community-

   20. JSJemma Sbeghen34:22

       Mm

   21. AAAli Abdaal34:22

       ... we, we, you know, I said we were, we were interviewing you, and we had more responses to that than to anything else we've ever posted in the podcast community-

   22. JSJemma Sbeghen34:27

       Oh, that's so funny

   23. AAAli Abdaal34:27

       ... 'cause there were loads of people who were like, "Oh my God, like I'm struggling with all these things in my 20s."

   24. JSJemma Sbeghen34:31

       Oh.

   25. AAAli Abdaal34:31

       And one of the main themes that really came up was this feeling of loneliness.

   26. JSJemma Sbeghen34:35

       Oh, yeah. It's massive.

   27. AAAli Abdaal34:37

       Mm.

   28. JSJemma Sbeghen34:38

       It's massive. And actually, there was a study that they did recently that showed people between the ages of 16 to 30, I think, um, or maybe it was 25 to 35, basically this period right now, in our 20s, is when people experience the greatest, greatest amounts of loneliness. And we typically

8. 34:55 – 37:25

   Journalling

   1. JSJemma Sbeghen34:55

      think that it's around, you know, uh, uh, people who are elderly, and we have this very outdated idea of people sitting alone in their flats, um, partners have died, fr- kids have, have moved away, and they're the lonely ones. But actually, out, in our 20s it's such a weird time where we do feel this overwhelming sense of, A, feeling lost and, B, feeling really disconnected. So I think that kind of links to my second habit that I wanna talk about, which is feel comfortable being alone. And the way that you can build this habit is much like we devote time to our relationships, you need to create time in your week to experience solitude. So something I do, and this is a habit that I've had to build over time [laughs] , is to actually carve out like a day each week or a night each week where I do not talk to anyone, where I enjoy my own company, where I sit with myself in silence or I feel like the, you know, if I'm the urge to like put something on the TV or to like be on your phone, that's not solitude, that's not alone time. You're just distracting yourself. Find time to sit with yourself and be alone with your thoughts and engage in something that is helpful for understanding you. And that might be a hobby. That might be journaling. I'm a big proponent of journaling, and because that's like, that's just you on the page, right? That's just you on the page talking about what you wanna talk about and what's going on in your mind. Um, and I think that is really vital for accepting the fact that loneliness is not your enemy, and that solitude is actually quite sacred, and so much good stuff can come out of forcing yourself to be alone with your own thoughts and your feelings for even just a couple hours a week.

   2. AAAli Abdaal36:43

      Yeah. We did a, an interview last season, uh, with, uh, Francesca Specter, who is the author of a book called, uh, Alonement-

   3. JSJemma Sbeghen36:51

      Oh

   4. AAAli Abdaal36:51

      ... which is all about like actually taking alone time a bit more seriously than we do.

   5. JSJemma Sbeghen36:55

      Oh, I love that.

   6. AAAli Abdaal36:56

      And since doing that, um, I've, I've kind of lost the habit a little bit, but for, for, for several weeks I would occasionally do like solo dates with myself in a new restaurant.

   7. JSJemma Sbeghen37:05

      Oh, I love that.

   8. AAAli Abdaal37:05

      And I just, I just love going to restaurants and cinemas by myself. It's so nice.

   9. JSJemma Sbeghen37:08

      Yeah.

   10. AAAli Abdaal37:08

       I just take a little journal with me. You know, I just order whatever and just like journal and feel good. It's just-

   11. JSJemma Sbeghen37:13

       Yeah

   12. AAAli Abdaal37:13

       ... su- such great vibes to do like once a week, and I find it... If it's more often than that, it starts to get a bit much.

   13. JSJemma Sbeghen37:20

       Yeah.

   14. AAAli Abdaal37:20

       Um, but the, I f- I find that, I, I, I take that scheduling time with friends thing

9. 37:25 – 48:50

   How to maintain friendships

   1. AAAli Abdaal37:25

      like super seriously as well, where, um, every Tuesday night is like friends dinner- Um, Sunday mornings are brunch with my brother and my housemate, um-

   2. JSJemma Sbeghen37:34

      Mm

   3. AAAli Abdaal37:34

      ... and, and my brother's wife, and we invite friends over for there. So we have these two default slots in the calendar, and then inevitably, you know, like Monday and Thursday night is date night, and so Wednesdays and Fridays get, like often by default filled up with creators who are in London for the week or-

   4. JSJemma Sbeghen37:49

      Yeah

   5. AAAli Abdaal37:49

      ... things like that. And so with the craziness of the calendar, I of- I, I, I often don't make that time for alone time anymore-

   6. JSJemma Sbeghen37:56

      Mm

   7. AAAli Abdaal37:57

      ... 'cause it always feels like, oh, actually, you know, this person's in town, and of course I should prioritize that. And then-

   8. JSJemma Sbeghen38:01

      Feels selfish to do it, doesn't it?

   9. AAAli Abdaal38:02

      It... Yeah. And then eventually, like it, I just... After a few weeks of this, I'll, I'll get to a point where I, I feel like I've just been nonstop and I haven't really taken the time to reflect on, on how the week's gone or how the month has gone.

   10. JSJemma Sbeghen38:12

       Mm.

   11. AAAli Abdaal38:13

       So I find these sort of periods of alonement quite, quite helpful.

   12. JSJemma Sbeghen38:15

       Yeah, self-reflection, it's a habit. You've gotta, you've gotta build it as well.

   13. AAAli Abdaal38:19

       What sort of questions do you ask yourself when journaling?

   14. JSJemma Sbeghen38:22

       Um, so I actually have this amazing journal that someone sent me from, oh my gosh, I wanna say Scotland. And each week it has these... Uh, each day actually it poses a little question. So the journal structure is, what are my goals for tomorrow? Um, what's... List like 10 things that you're grateful for today, um, and that's another habit that we're gonna talk about in a second. And then it will be like, um, what, what is one song that represents how you're feeling right now?

   15. AAAli Abdaal38:49

       Oof.

   16. JSJemma Sbeghen38:50

       Or, um, what is one small thing in your life right now that you could change and you'd be happier for it? Or what is one, one goal that if someone said, "You could have this right now," you would want? It's like those little things that make you really think about, um, make you really think about where you sit with yourself and your values and, and all of those things. And then if I just like free journal, I'll just write about whatever's on my mind-

   17. AAAli Abdaal39:15

       Mm

   18. JSJemma Sbeghen39:15

       ... um, normally how I'm feeling, like if I've had a rough day or, um, you know, I went through a breakup like a year ago, and oh my goodness, reading back over that was also a lot. But it's all about processing your own emotions and not needing other people to validate or reinforce how you feel, because you are the most important relationship that you're ever going to have, and the others contribute to that. But if that relationship if it isn't steady, if you don't know yourself well enough, it... Everything else is going to be formed on a rocky foundation.

   19. AAAli Abdaal39:47

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. One, one thing I enjoy doing is collecting journaling prompts.

   20. JSJemma Sbeghen39:53

       Oh, cool.

   21. AAAli Abdaal39:53

       'Cause a bunch of people I follow on Twitter like just enjoy journaling as well, and when I see a prompt I'm like, "Oh, that's a great question."

   22. JSJemma Sbeghen39:58

       Oh, yeah.

   23. AAAli Abdaal39:58

       'Cause I think there's just something to the power of asking yourself and other people powerful questions.

   24. JSJemma Sbeghen40:02

       Yeah.

   25. AAAli Abdaal40:02

       'Cause sometimes if I ask myself what's on my mind, I'm just like, "Uh," I, I... It's, it's hard to really answer that properly. But if I ask myself something like, "What's one thing, what's one thing I did today that if I..." Or, or, or if I ask myself that, "If I repeated everything I did today, would I be closer to where I wanna be or further away from where I wanna be?"

   26. JSJemma Sbeghen40:20

       Oh my God.

   27. AAAli Abdaal40:21

       And then that reminds me, "Huh, that's interesting. I actually haven't... I actually didn't go to the gym today. And so if I repeated every single day, if I r- I repeated today for the n- the next year, I'd probably be in pretty bad shape. Cool. I didn't call my mom or, or my grandma today. F- that's something I should change."

   28. JSJemma Sbeghen40:36

       Mm.

   29. AAAli Abdaal40:36

       And it just like prompts those sorts of things, which otherwise if I just ask myself what's on my mind or open up a journal, those thoughts wouldn't have come out.

   30. JSJemma Sbeghen40:42

       Yeah. I really like that.
10. 48:50 – 53:12

    Setting boundaries

    1. AAAli Abdaal48:50

       So active constructive is where we kind of wanna be for the most energizing relationships, which is, you know, you s- you say you've just run a mar- half marathon or whatever, and an active constructive response might be, "Oh my God, that's incredible. Tell me more about it. How did it feel?" And it's like-

    2. JSJemma Sbeghen49:05

       Hmm

    3. AAAli Abdaal49:05

       ... I'm building on it and asking you to share more.

    4. JSJemma Sbeghen49:07

       That's so good.

    5. AAAli Abdaal49:08

       A, a passive constructive response would be, "Oh, that's cool."

    6. JSJemma Sbeghen49:11

       Yeah.

    7. AAAli Abdaal49:11

       Passive. I mean, it's constructive in that I haven't, like, torn you down for it, but-

    8. JSJemma Sbeghen49:14

       Yeah

    9. AAAli Abdaal49:15

       ... it's not that energizing. It's sort of neutral at best. A passive destructive response would be, um, kind of, "Oh, cool, but let me tell you about the thing that I did," where it's like-

    10. JSJemma Sbeghen49:25

        Yeah

    11. AAAli Abdaal49:25

        ... kind of the self-centered thing. And then an active destructive response is a total dick, where someone's like, "Well, that's not such a big deal. Like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

    12. JSJemma Sbeghen49:32

        Yeah.

    13. AAAli Abdaal49:32

        "Like, why would you think you should do that? You're gonna ruin your knees." That would just be a, a completely unhelpful response.

    14. JSJemma Sbeghen49:37

        Yeah.

    15. AAAli Abdaal49:37

        And shifting more towards energizing interactions, active constructive responses to things- There's like genuine evidence from like psychology studies that people who do that are seen as more energizing, more charismatic, more enjoyable to be around than people that respond in any of the other three ways.

    16. JSJemma Sbeghen49:51

        It's so powerful, isn't it? And it's, um, the one that you said, uh, uh, it's active, uh, no passive constructive. Is that it? Where someone's like, "Oh, that's cool."

    17. AAAli Abdaal50:00

        Yeah.

    18. JSJemma Sbeghen50:01

        Isn't that the worst?

    19. AAAli Abdaal50:02

        Hmm. [laughs]

    20. JSJemma Sbeghen50:03

        I honestly think that that's worse than someone being like, "Oh cool, but guess what I did?"

    21. AAAli Abdaal50:07

        Hmm.

    22. JSJemma Sbeghen50:08

        I like e- and especially when you share news with, with, um, friends or family and y- I think those are the people that we love the most and we trust the most, and we want them to be like really in our corner. But then you have to remember that the, the reaction that you want from someone else, you need to give them as well. So-

    23. AAAli Abdaal50:25

        Yeah

    24. JSJemma Sbeghen50:25

        ... anytime someone gives you really great news, like you need, like you should be genuinely excited for them if they're someone that you care about or someone that you like or someone that you know. I think that's so valuable, just reciprocating-

    25. AAAli Abdaal50:37

        Yeah

    26. JSJemma Sbeghen50:37

        ... good energy from the people that you want in your life is so powerful in our 20s.

    27. AAAli Abdaal50:43

        Yeah. Yeah, the oth- the other tip that, um, o- one of our team members actually shared with me, uh, was, you know, something he's found really helpful is just greeting someone very effusively.

    28. JSJemma Sbeghen50:53

        Mm-hmm.

    29. AAAli Abdaal50:53

        Because if like we hang out with a friend, like I think es- especially as dudes, um, I suspect it's like y- you're kind of trying to play it cool. Like you-

    30. JSJemma Sbeghen51:00

        Oh, really? Interesting
11. 53:12 – 1:12:54

    Stepping out of your comfort zone

    1. JSJemma Sbeghen53:12

       A, understanding what we want from our relationships and the behavior that we won't accept, and B, learning how to, uh, communicate that to people without being worried about hurting their feelings. And I don't think that there is one specific way that we can go about this. I think there are many ways that people arrive at this point, and often it comes from really horrible experiences. Like-

    2. AAAli Abdaal53:37

       Hmm

    3. JSJemma Sbeghen53:38

       ... have you had this experience where you haven't set a boundary until it's way too late?

    4. AAAli Abdaal53:43

       Yep.

    5. JSJemma Sbeghen53:43

       And then you're like, "Oh my God, I wish that I had done this sooner and I would have avoided myse- avoided so much pain."

    6. AAAli Abdaal53:49

       Hmm.

    7. JSJemma Sbeghen53:50

       And someone said this to me the other day, but the most compassionate people have the best boundaries, and I just think that is so, so spot on.

    8. AAAli Abdaal53:59

       Like w- what's an example in your life where you've set a boundary and it's been helpful?

    9. JSJemma Sbeghen54:03

       Um, I think a massive habit around that is getting used to being vulnerable and being honest with the people in your life. So I have this example from when I moved to Sydney. That really shook up a lot of my relationships. I went to university in Canberra, which is the capital of Australia, and I left all of my really good friends behind. That put our relationship, long distance friendships, that puts your relationship under a lot of strain. And I had this, I wouldn't say problem, this is one of my closest friends, it's never a problem that can't be solved. There really isn't any problems, but I think this friction and this confusion around how much time I was going to be able to devote to coming back to see this person or coming back to or, or to calling them all the time or always replying to their messages, right? Like I had this new life that I was trying to invest in. I really respected her, but there was this friction occurring where w- I couldn't maintain both.

    10. AAAli Abdaal55:00

        Yep.

    11. JSJemma Sbeghen55:01

        I couldn't come back every weekend. I was trying to create a new life. So what I started trying to do was to build up honesty with her, and it was honesty in the sense of just being honest about what was going on in my life and then slowly building up to being honest about the state of our relationship.

    12. AAAli Abdaal55:17

        Hmm.

    13. JSJemma Sbeghen55:17

        And honesty is itself a boundary, right? Because in honesty we communicate what we want. So what I ended up doing was the bound-- when I wanted to set a boundary I gave her an option. So I would say, for example it was her birthday actually recently, and I would say, "Okay, your birthday is, is on this weekend. You want me to come down for two nights. Um, I actually can't do that because I'm, I've got a lot going on with work. Which night would you like me to choose? Which night would you like me to come down?"

    14. AAAli Abdaal55:50

        Hmm.

    15. JSJemma Sbeghen55:51

        And it's about Being honest, yes, but also setting boundaries and, and being willing to compromise. Um, I think that's the healthiest version of a boundary that you can come to. You've got to remember that boundaries aren't just around making sure everything goes your way. Life is really, like, r- relationships and life are really complicated.

    16. AAAli Abdaal56:10

        Mm.

    17. JSJemma Sbeghen56:10

        You're gonna have to compromise sometimes.

    18. AAAli Abdaal56:12

        Yeah.

    19. JSJemma Sbeghen56:12

        Um, but if you have good boundaries that are respectful and that are, you're willing to be somewhat flexible on, I think that makes them a lot more robust.

    20. AAAli Abdaal56:21

        So we've talked a little bit about relationships. Let's talk about careers.

    21. JSJemma Sbeghen56:24

        Mm.

    22. AAAli Abdaal56:24

        Now, we talked about that whole navigating that, like, travel the world and find yourself versus grind and hustle in your 20s, and-

    23. JSJemma Sbeghen56:31

        Yeah

    24. AAAli Abdaal56:31

        ... just kind of said that it's important to get a bit of a, a, a little bit of a balance. But I guess with that, with that in mind, that balance is what we're trying to go for here. Um, what are some habits that you think are helpful to develop in your 20s?

    25. JSJemma Sbeghen56:43

        Yeah. I think career is a big thing on our minds, right? Um, especially in our 20s, as we talked about throughout all of this. But the first habit I think that you need to kind of cultivate is stepping out of your comfort zone. I think that there is this saying that I love when it comes to this, which is that you can either choose to be comfortable or you can choose to grow. And our 20s are an amazing point where we can, we can, we can grow, and we have the opportunities and we have the freedom to kind of push the limits of what we think is possible. So we don't nor- most of us wouldn't have kids in our early 20s. Most of us wouldn't have a mortgage, I would assume. Wouldn't be married. Um, those are, like, three massive responsibilities, and once those come into play, it's a lot harder to take a risk in your career or step out of your comfort zone, big or small. So using that, that time in, especially in our early 20s, to capitalize on that opportunity is so valuable. And what that could look like is going back to university if there's something that's really captivated your attention, going and getting a diploma. Um, I know that's easier said than done. In Australia, it's free. You get a loan from the government. So I'm sure there's people listening out there who don't have that financial opportunity and, and don't have the ability to do that. But also, um, stepping out of your comfort zone means applying for jobs that, like, are just a little bit above where you think you currently are. Asking for promotions. Those kinds of things really... Most of the time, if you apply for, like, if you apply for a job that's a little bit above where you currently sit, you'll probably get it, and yeah, there'll be a couple of months where you're kind of learning the ropes, but that's going to really put you in good stead for the future maybe at that company, but also in your career as well.

    26. AAAli Abdaal58:28

        Hm. Yeah, on that note, there was a, a good stat, I think it was from the book Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg.

    27. JSJemma Sbeghen58:34

        Oh, slay. Love Sheryl.

    28. AAAli Abdaal58:35

        Yeah.

    29. JSJemma Sbeghen58:35

        Sheryl Sandberg.

    30. AAAli Abdaal58:36

        So good. Um, uh, where, where she said something like, um, when women look at a job description, uh, they think they're suited if they match 100% of the requirements.
12. 1:12:54 – 1:21:05

    Habits for finding work life balance

    1. JSJemma Sbeghen1:12:54

       I hope he doesn't mind me sharing this. I'm sure he wouldn't mind. He does this a lot. Uh, not a lot, but he really taught me this power of leveraging other job opportunities to get promotions, and he is really good at it 'cause he'll, he's very self-aware of, like, "All right. I've learnt what I needed to learn at this level. I need more responsibility." And he's a, he's such a go-getter, and he's so motivated. Um, [lips smack] and sometimes the company he works at doesn't really allow him to grow. They're a very rigid company.

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:13:20

       Yeah.

    3. JSJemma Sbeghen1:13:21

       So he'll go out, and he's so talented and so good at his job that he'll be like, "Okay, I've got this offer from Qantas," or, "I've got this offer from some big company." He'll, and he'll leverage it and get a higher position. And so I think it's the same thing about, uh, what you said before. It's not about job hopping because that can be really stressful and around your finances and-

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:13:41

       Yeah

    5. JSJemma Sbeghen1:13:42

       ... all those things, but role hopping as well. Just take as many risks as possible. Just learn so much. Um, and also I feel like the worst, the worst feeling to have is to hit, like, 35 and be like, "Oh, fuck. Like, I'm still doing the same thing I was doing at 22, and now I wanna change, but I feel like I've aged out of the time that I had to, to switch, to switch around." And of course, there's, you can start at any age. You can change at any age. But in our 20s I think it's a lot easier To do that

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:14:13

       Yeah, no, agreed. And I think equally, like, uh, there's, uh, w- one of our team members, uh, Alison, has, like, a com- the, the complete opposite take on this. Um, so-

    7. JSJemma Sbeghen1:14:22

       Oh, really?

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:14:22

       ... she spent three years working her way up, uh, an accounting firm and got the tax qualifications and all that stuff-

    9. JSJemma Sbeghen1:14:27

       Mm

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:14:27

        ... in Ireland, and then decided to move to London for this job to work on our team. And her whole thing is, "You know, for the first time in my life, I am not gonna strive and I'm not gonna grind. I am in my 20s, I'm gonna enjoy my 20s. I'm gonna... You know, I'm doing this job because it's, it's fun and interesting, and it's just a job, but I'm not trying to side hustle-

    11. JSJemma Sbeghen1:14:43

        Mm

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:14:43

        ... on the weekends. I'm not trying to side hustle in the evenings. I wanna see every musical that London has to offer. I wanna hang out with my friends every day. I wanna play rugby. Like, I wanna live my best life and I, in this phase of life, I don't wanna strive."

    13. JSJemma Sbeghen1:14:54

        I love Alison.

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:14:55

        And Alison sh- says that she's the happiest person she knows, so, like [laughs] she's just-

    15. JSJemma Sbeghen1:14:58

        Yeah

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:14:58

        ... yeah, I think for some people they're, th- making the intentional and active decision to actually just be happy in a job that you, that you enjoy enough to get on with-

    17. JSJemma Sbeghen1:15:07

        Yeah

    18. AAAli Abdaal1:15:07

        ... and then quote, "Enjoy the rest of your life outside of that", is also a, a, a reasonable strategy that... And, and I think as long as you're not gonna regret it when you're older, then-

    19. JSJemma Sbeghen1:15:16

        Mm

    20. AAAli Abdaal1:15:16

        ... you, you do you. Yeah.

    21. JSJemma Sbeghen1:15:18

        My, uh, best friend Erin, um, she has the same philosophy, which she's like, "I'm ac-..." She's, she's very similar to Alison. She's like, "My career is actually not my life. I do not live to work."

    22. AAAli Abdaal1:15:29

        Yeah.

    23. JSJemma Sbeghen1:15:29

        "I just work to live. And the things that... And, and all that work does is give me a paycheck so I can go and do my hobbies."

    24. AAAli Abdaal1:15:35

        Mm.

    25. JSJemma Sbeghen1:15:35

        She's also one of, like, she's also one of the most well-balanced people that I know, and, like, she really doesn't dream of labor, and-

    26. AAAli Abdaal1:15:41

        [laughs]

    27. JSJemma Sbeghen1:15:42

        ... I love her for that. And sh- her and her partner, um, go... Like, Tasmania is this island off of Australia. It's, like, beautiful and, um, it's like, half of it is, like, basically nature. Like, it's a national park. Um, and they, like, go out and they do hikes, and they go and volunteer and plant native bulbs, and they save wildlife. And I'm like, "You guys have the best life," and it all comes from that philosophy of act your wage, be balanced, but also don't be afraid to take some risks if it's going to lead to greater balance and happiness in what you wanna do.

    28. AAAli Abdaal1:16:15

        Okay, so we kind of touched on the idea of work-life balance, but I wonder if you've got any specific habits that, um, you would recommend for people in their 20s to navigate the idea of work-life balance or work-life integration or however you wanna think about it.

    29. JSJemma Sbeghen1:16:26

        Yeah, I've got this really amazing activity kind of that I do, or I did when I worked 9:00 to 5:00, that I think is really valuable. So when we think about our life, I like to think about it in terms of five buckets, and each day you need to do something f- in each of those categories. So one of them is physical, so exercise, moving your body. One of them is mental, looking after your mental wellbeing and taking care of yourself there. One of the, one part of that is practical as well, so practical meaning there's just some shit you need to get done. You gotta do your laundry, you gotta do your groceries, you gotta do those things. Social, um, so you need to feel fulfilled socially and, and to get that connection. And then the final one is, uh, spiritual or emotional or, um, to do with your hobbies. So in your day, I want you... If you want, if you're really, you know, wanting to achieve work-life balance, try and find a way to hit every f- every one of these five categories. So physical, walk to work. Um, mental, check in with yourself at the end of the day. Maybe take your medication that you've been prescribed. Do a very short five-minute meditation when you get home from work. Um, in terms of practical, make yourself dinner. Just do something practical that's going to make your life better the next day.

    30. AAAli Abdaal1:17:46

        Mm.
13. 1:21:05 – 1:33:15

    Advice on finding your identity

    1. JSJemma Sbeghen1:21:05

       Yeah.

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:21:05

       And it, it's more manageable than a four-day week, which is quite a lot of faff. But-

    3. JSJemma Sbeghen1:21:09

       And also other people aren't on a four-day week

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:21:10

       ... yeah. Yeah, exactly, and so, like, actually, when you squeeze down the amount of days available, but nine-day fortnight, like anything that can be done in 10 days can also be done in nine days, realistically.

    5. JSJemma Sbeghen1:21:20

       Yeah. You've not got the buffer

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:21:20

       And the things that can't are the thing, the lowest priority things that shouldn't be done anyway. So it forces, in theory, forces prioritization. [laughs]

    7. JSJemma Sbeghen1:21:26

       Yeah.

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:21:27

       So we're trialing it out and seeing, and seeing how it works, and over time we might have to become more draconian about people actually taking that Friday off-

    9. JSJemma Sbeghen1:21:33

       Mm

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:21:33

        ... because it's just like a, a deep work day then rather than a day off, which is, which is fine, but-

    11. JSJemma Sbeghen1:21:38

        Yeah

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:21:38

        ... yeah.

    13. JSJemma Sbeghen1:21:39

        At my old company we had this thing called recharge days.

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:21:41

        Mm-hmm.

    15. JSJemma Sbeghen1:21:42

        So if you'd worked, um, two, two, two weeks or more where you'd worked in an excess of 10 hours overtime-

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:21:49

        Mm

    17. JSJemma Sbeghen1:21:49

        ... you had to take a recharge day.

    18. AAAli Abdaal1:21:51

        Oh.

    19. JSJemma Sbeghen1:21:51

        So you had to take, like, a Friday or a Monday off, and that was so lovely, and I think that was really what, like, encouraged me to go into doing my own thing-

    20. AAAli Abdaal1:22:00

        Mm

    21. JSJemma Sbeghen1:22:00

        ... 'cause I was like, I love this flexibility [laughs] of having a, an extra day to myself.

    22. AAAli Abdaal1:22:05

        One thing I find really helpful for work-life balance is, um, something, uh, called the ideal week method.

    23. JSJemma Sbeghen1:22:12

        Ooh.

    24. AAAli Abdaal1:22:13

        So basically what this is, is that you go on Google Calendar or whatever, you create a brand-new calendar so it's completely blank, and you call it your ideal week calendar. And you just block out in the week-long view what does your ideal week actually look like or your ideal practical week.

    25. JSJemma Sbeghen1:22:26

        Mm.

    26. AAAli Abdaal1:22:27

        So let's say you wanna wake up at 7:00. You would block wake up at 7:00, like, do morning routine. Let's say you go to work from 9:00 till 5:00. You block that out for work.

    27. JSJemma Sbeghen1:22:33

        Mm.

    28. AAAli Abdaal1:22:33

        And maybe you can subdivide that as, like, ideally, depending on how much control over you have over your schedule, this is when I'd like to do deep work. This is when I'd like to check Slack and email. This is when I'd like to have meetings, ideally. Obviously, people have different levels of control over their own schedules. And then the evenings, again, you block out, like, okay, every Tuesday, let's say in my ideal week, every Tuesday is, uh, I cook dinner for friends, and every Sunday dinner is also a dinner with friends. I'd say Thursday night is date night. Wednesday night is rock climbing. Monday night is my alonement time.

    29. JSJemma Sbeghen1:23:00

        Mm.

    30. AAAli Abdaal1:23:00

        Friday I'll just leave blank for any spontaneous thing that comes up, and Saturdays I'll leave empty for, again, spontaneous things that come up. And I wanna go gym three times a week, so let's say that's Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

Episode duration: 1:33:16