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The Happiness Expert Making 1 Billion People Happier - Mo Gawdat

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Mo GawdatguestAli Abdaalhost

Jun 23, 20221h 31mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

95 min read · 18,829 words

0:00 – 2:16
Intro
1. MGMo Gawdat
  Your brain is capable of anything, but if you leave it uncontrolled, its tendency, its instinct is to look for what's wrong. Before he went into the operating room, I promise you, the highest point of my life. And then, four hours later, Ali's gone. My new baseline of happiness in life has gone from here to here. And you can make a choice to stay here, or you can make a choice to make it slightly better, and that incremental bit is within the hands of every one of us. Happiness is mixed up in our modern world with so many weapons of mass distraction, as I call them. Joy, pleasure, fun, entertainment, elation, excitement, and a lot of ego. But that's not happiness. That's not genuine happiness. And my answer, my only answer, and I, I actually ask our listeners and you to tell me I'm wrong, is I-
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Hi friends, and welcome back to Deep Dive. My name is Ali, and each week, I have the immense pleasure to sit down with authors, creators, entrepreneurs, and other inspiring people, and we talk about how they got to where they are and some of the principles, strategies, and tools that can help us along our shared journey of trying to live our best lives. Now, Mo's had a pretty interesting background in that he used to be the chief business officer of Google X, which is like the moonshot division of Google where they do like weird and wacky and wonderful projects. And he got there after spending 30 years of his career in tech working at Microsoft and other such big companies. But then in 2014, a tragic event happened that really shook everything about Mo's life to its core, and that was that his son Ali, who was just 21 at the time, ended up getting appendicitis and then because of various medical errors during the appendectomy, the removal of the appendix, uh, Ali tragically and sadly lost his life. Now it's hard to imagine the impact that losing a son has on a family, but that incident caused Mo to basically reevaluate his life and transfer, transition his mission from kind of getting involved in bit, big tech and making all this money towards trying to help one billion people become happier, which sort of became his mission, um, because that was what his son Ali was all about. For me, this was one of my favorite episodes of the podcast. I feel like I learned so much, and I got a masterclass in happiness, in control of the ego, in emotions. And we talked a lot about how to play the infinite game of life and what is really the point of all of this stuff. We kind of touched a little bit on Mo's new book, That Little Voice in Your Head, which kind of talks about the subroutines that we have running in our mind that cause us to be distressed or sad or unhappy. Anyway, I really hope you enjoy this conversation with Mo Gawdat.
2:16 – 7:37
Writing a book about happiness after losing your son
1. AAAli Abdaal
  All right, well, thank you so much for coming on here.
2. MGMo Gawdat
  I am very, very, very happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  This is gonna be so fun. And it's, it's, it's nice hearing, hearing your voice in person because I've been hearing your voice on the audiobook of-
4. MGMo Gawdat
  Yeah, yeah, yeah
5. AAAli Abdaal
  ... your first book, Solve for Happy.
6. MGMo Gawdat
  So the thing about that audiobook is that most people will say, "I know you."
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
8. MGMo Gawdat
  Like, "I've ha- I've had you in my ear [laughs]
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
10. MGMo Gawdat
  ... I have had you in my ears for like 11 hours."
11. AAAli Abdaal
  It's a very intimate experience.
12. MGMo Gawdat
  Really is.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Having someone in just in your AirPods in your, in your-
14. MGMo Gawdat
  I agree
15. AAAli Abdaal
  ... headphones for a long time.
16. MGMo Gawdat
  Yeah, yeah.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Um-
18. MGMo Gawdat
  I think that b- audiobook, when it's was recorded, uh, it was literally the first time ... So, so I, I wrote the book two and a half years before it came out.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, okay.
20. MGMo Gawdat
  And, yeah, and, and then editors wanted to change it, and it was very precious for me because it was Ali's story.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
22. MGMo Gawdat
  And anyway, so eventually when it came out and I as, as I was reading the audiobook, it was the very first time that I read any of the paragraphs I wrote about Ali-
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
24. MGMo Gawdat
  ... because these were never edited. Every, every editor, I worked with-
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
26. MGMo Gawdat
  ... five editors. Every editor was like, "Yeah, I'm happy with that." Right? And so it was very emotional when I read them-
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
28. MGMo Gawdat
  ... because I didn't know about them for two and a half years.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
30. MGMo Gawdat
  And yeah, and so it made my, made the book, um, v- very personal I think.
7:37 – 10:42
Battling the negativity bias instinct
1. MGMo Gawdat
  is capable of anything. I mean, my new book is exactly about that. It's exactly about your brain being able to, uh, to do anything, what e- what you tell it to do, right? But if you leave it uncontrolled, mm, its tendency, its instinct is to look for what's wrong. Why? Because it's a, it's a survival machine.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
3. MGMo Gawdat
  It's, it is there for the simple reason of detecting if there is a tiger so it can protect you, okay? And yes, if there are no tigers, it can go on and, and invent iPhones. But, but you know, if... But it's still, even as it's inventing iPhones, trying to detect everything. Is my boss annoying? Is my, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend, uh, uh, um, you know, trying to leave me? Uh, you know, am I going to starve? Whatever.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
5. MGMo Gawdat
  Right? But that's until you take charge. If you take charge, you know, that little voice in your head, I basically say it's like your computer. It's like your device. You can tell it what to do, and it will do it. And once you start to take charge, mm, that machine can be instructed to look for what's right. And when you look for what's right, m- my, my claim, I have no scientific evidence behind it, that 99.9% of your life is right, okay? Whoever you are, huh. I, you know, I ha- you know, I have a tiny bit of a, a sore throat today, but that happens to me twice a year.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
7. MGMo Gawdat
  Most of the year my, my voice is okay, right? Uh, you know, um, uh, uh, um, you, you, you... Most of us live our entire life on solid ground. Most of us never, ever see an earthquake, right? Ever, unless it's in the news, mm? And even if you do, it's, like, once or twice in your lifetime, mm? It, the baseline of life is okay.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
9. MGMo Gawdat
  And then, and then the negatives just happen. You know, there are dips out of okay and then back to the baseline, right?
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
11. MGMo Gawdat
  And, and when you see that, then it's only fair to instruct your brain, if you wanna see the truth, if you wanna acknowledge the truth of your life, it's only fair to instruct your brain to look for 99%, 99.9% as I say-
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
13. MGMo Gawdat
  ... of good things. So I have, I have this very simple exercise when my brain tells me something wrong about anything.
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
15. MGMo Gawdat
  Okay? I ask for nine other good things about the situation.
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, nice.
17. MGMo Gawdat
  So, so, you know, when I, when I s- uh, uh, um, you know, arrived downstairs, and because you were so generous to send a car to bring me here, I didn't actually have the address, so I didn't know where to go, right? The first thing that my brain tells me is, "Whoops. Oh, but they were so kind to give... to send me a car. But there is... You know, it's sunny, and I... It's not raining. But, you know, there's this beautiful cafe that, downstairs that I need to try later. But I have your number, so I can text you and say, 'Hey, Ali. Hey, I'm downstairs.' " And, and, and, and, and. If I focus on all of these, then it's amazing. Thank you so much for not putting the address in the, in, in the calendar, right?
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
19. MGMo Gawdat
  And, and, and if you focus on, "Ah, but things need to be perfect. How come, how come, you know, my team didn't, uh, you know, find that point?" I can make my, myself miserable. The event is exactly the same, but it's my choice, mm, to look at it as a wonderful event or as an, as a negative event.
10:42 – 19:59
Is happiness a choice?
1. AAAli Abdaal
  O- one of the things that I, I found interesting, um, is that you often say that happiness is a choice.
2. MGMo Gawdat
  Totally a choice.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  And you also often say that saying that is very controversial, and it loses you wh- whatever percentage of podcast listeners who don't want to believe that happiness is a choice.
4. MGMo Gawdat
  It loses me exactly 8% if my statistics are correct.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Eight?
6. MGMo Gawdat
  Yeah.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, nice. [laughs] Excellent.
8. MGMo Gawdat
  I'll tell you why.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, yeah. Why's that?
10. MGMo Gawdat
  You know, when I wrote, when I wrote Solve For Happy the first time, I, uh, I basically wrote it like we write software. I, I created a beta version-
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
12. MGMo Gawdat
  ... put it online.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
14. MGMo Gawdat
  Invited people to come and read it. Literally on Google Docs I would invite them to walk in and edit-
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh
16. MGMo Gawdat
  ... my, my words.
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
18. MGMo Gawdat
  Which was an amazing experience.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Interesting.
20. MGMo Gawdat
  270 people to be exact. And, you know, I asked them to do a little survey to tell me a little bit about themselves before that. And because it's on Docs, you can actually follow how the readers are progressing. And I lost 8% of my readers on page 11, okay? And page 11 was the page where I said happiness is a choice. And, and it's obvious, because for so many people, being the victim, mm, is a very interesting place to be.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Interesting?
22. MGMo Gawdat
  Yeah. It's because of course there is a va- there is value to being the victim.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
24. MGMo Gawdat
  So remember, a lot of what we are as humans comes from when you were younger. So as a two-year-old-
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
26. MGMo Gawdat
  ... you, you know how you sometime... I know you did. Sometimes you would go like, "Mommy," and you pretend to cry.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, yeah. [laughs]
28. MGMo Gawdat
  Right? Why would you pretend to cry? Because crying allowed your mom to go like, "Okay, baby. Something's wrong." Either, you know, tap you on the back or remove whatever was annoying you or whatever.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
30. MGMo Gawdat
  Just give you attention.
19:59 – 31:07
The difference between happiness and fun
1. MGMo Gawdat
  What am I talking about?
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
3. MGMo Gawdat
  Right? Because, because happiness is mixed up in our modern world with so many weapons of mass distraction, as I call them, right?
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay. Yeah. [laughs]
5. MGMo Gawdat
  Ba- ba- basically, the idea is I can't sell you happiness. Why can I not sell you happiness? Because you're born happy. Hmm. The, the, the, the... every child you've ever seen, if they have their basic needs, they're happy. You just make a s- a child safe and, and loved and, you know, make the warm, the f- the room warm enough, and don't shout next to the child, and the child is giggling and playing with its toes, right? It's our innate state. It's our default setting. Hmm. So I can't sell you that.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  No.
7. MGMo Gawdat
  Hmm. The, the, the, the... what the modern world tries to sell you is, uh, uh, uh, joy, pleasure, fun, entertainment, elation, excitement. Th- this is what they're s- s- selling you, and a lot of ego. Hmm. This is what they're selling you, but, but that's not happiness. That's not genuine happiness. Genuine happiness is that calm and peaceful contentment you feel when you're okay with life as it is.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
9. MGMo Gawdat
  Doesn't matter what life is, but when you're okay with it. Hmm. Uh, that, that's, that's the feeling we look for. This is the feeling you feel when you're sitting on a little river somewhere in the middle of nature. Hmm. And, uh, and you're, you know, you don't have access to, to your phone or to data network, so no bosses' emails, and no bosses' phone c- uh, calls, and no, no Instagram posts to annoy you, and... right?
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
11. MGMo Gawdat
  And what's your state then? You have that calm and peace, and you tell yourself, "I wish I can stay here longer." Now, that, in my definition, that calm and peaceful contentment, that's what happiness is. You can add to it excitement. You can add to it pleasure. You can add to it fun. You can add to it elation, right?
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
13. MGMo Gawdat
  You can, you can go and play a video game with your friends, and on top of that calmness, you're ha- you have fun too, right?
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
15. MGMo Gawdat
  But then if you start from fun-
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
17. MGMo Gawdat
  ... the problem is it becomes very, uh, uh, transient.
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Yes.
19. MGMo Gawdat
  The minute you stop playing video games, you start to go back to think about what your partner said on Friday.
20. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
21. MGMo Gawdat
  Hmm. And you end up in a place where you're unhappy again. Your brain just goes through it. And, and ac- and this is reflected very, very clearly in our biology, right? So in our biology, that state of calm and peaceful contentment is when your, uh, sympathetic ne- parasympathetic nervous system is engaged, right? So you're, you're, you're supposed to have two modes of operation as a machine, as a human machine for survival. One of them is in a, in a state of stress, fight or flight or freeze, and that's you're flooded with hormones, stress hormones, and you're trying to become superhuman to escape a threat or to deal with a challenge. That, that state, hmm, has, uh, is important for your survival. It's also complemented with another state when the tiger has run away, or you managed to escape it, or you beat it in the nose and the tiger fell down-
22. AAAli Abdaal
  [laughs]
23. MGMo Gawdat
  ... or whatever you did heroically. Hmm. You're, you're in a, you're in a state now where all of the adrenaline rushes out of your body, all of your corti- cortisol flushes away, and you sit back to do what? To d- to, to, to do the opposite of that state. In that state, hmm, your stomach stops to digest food. Hmm. Your, all of your blood is, is directed to your muscles and your brain and to your eyesight. You no longer have the ability to do other important critical functions properly. So when you're in calm and peace, hmm, what is happening really is you're, you're being told, "I need that other time to digest my food, to rest my body, to replenish my muscles, to reflect, to sleep," and so on. Now, when we define happiness as that calm and peaceful contentment-
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep
25. MGMo Gawdat
  ... when you're in that state, your body is actually flooded with serotonin.
26. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
27. MGMo Gawdat
  And serotonin, uh, uh, even though the, uh, the internet will tell you that there are four happiness hormones-
28. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
29. MGMo Gawdat
  ... no. My view is that the only happiness hormone is serotonin.
30. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
31:07 – 39:23
Understanding the happiness equation and unhappiness
1. AAAli Abdaal
  uh, picking me up on the, on the video games thing.
2. MGMo Gawdat
  [laughs]
3. AAAli Abdaal
  Because I... So the w- the way I think of it, or I thought of it previously in my mind, was, you know, my, my mom occasionally asks me if I'm happy. Like-
4. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  You know, and then I'm like, "Yeah, I feel like life is a 10 out of 10." And she's like, "But you don't look very happy."
6. MGMo Gawdat
  [laughs]
7. AAAli Abdaal
  And I'm like, "I'm, I'm just..." You know, I have, I have a resting bored face. I always seem to look tired, bags under the eyes and all that stuff. But the way I was previously defining it was that kind of contentment was this sort of baseline level of peace and acceptance and calm. But then happiness was a... I, I was always unsure. Is, is happiness more like a kind of hour-by-hour, minute-by-minute fluctuation? Or, or when we say happiness, are we referring more to this sort of climate rather than weather, this idea of, like, long-term, long-term-ish contentment, I'm happy with how life is going?
8. MGMo Gawdat
  The, the, the target is definitely to be happy. So, so happiness is binary. Uh, so, like, if you don't mind me-
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, interesting. Yeah, please
10. MGMo Gawdat
  ... ta- ta- talk about... Let me talk about the happiness equation for a minute.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
12. MGMo Gawdat
  So, so when I, when I struggled with my u- unhappiness as a young man, having been given everything. I was so fortunate. I had the most beautiful wife, two amazing kids, you know, fortune and power, if you want. I, I had so much money, the big villa and so on. I was miserable, right? And, and the idea for me was, like, so what is happening? Why, why is that n- why is it not working for me? And I attempted in a very crazy scientific way, believe it or not, as an engineer, I said, "Okay, so we're gonna have to look for that happiness thing, and what do engineers do?" The first thing they, we do is we define the problem. Okay? So what is that happiness thing? You need to know what it is before you look for it. And interestingly, there was no definition anywhere. And so I went out and I said, "Okay, let's write down moments where we felt that thing called happy." And I wrote down, if I remember correctly, 92 bullet points at the time. I feel happy when my daughter smiles. I feel happy when I have a good cup of coffee. I feel happy when I have an enri- enriching conversation, and so on. And I started to look for, uh, common, commonalities between those points. In a, in a, in an engineer's way, I was literally looking for a fitting line.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
14. MGMo Gawdat
  Okay? It's like, you know, you take a few random readings from a machine, and you just put them on a graph, and if there is a line, that line is the equation of how that machine performs. I was looking for that line. I plotted those moments against everything, you know. My height, my weight, my, you know, age, my hair on my head, whatever that is, right? And seriously, I, I, I was very open to the idea of those moments when I felt happy, were they because I lost my hair in my late 20s that I started to feel unhappy? So it's a, it's a worthwhile experiment. Hmm? But no, there was no relationship at all. The only relationship was this. Happiness was not triggered by any single event. As a matter of fact, the same event, I said I feel happy when my daughter smiles, hmm. That same event made me happy most of my life. It made me very unhappy when she once failed a class in school and came back to, from, from school smiling, right?
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
16. MGMo Gawdat
  When... You know, why is that? When, you know, I'm, I... Generally, I feel happy when my daughter smiles, but when she was smiling after failing a class, I sort of had a feeling in my head that she maybe not, does not realize the weight of the issue or that she's not responsible or whatever. But even the same event does not always trigger happiness. And when you start to, to see that, you say, "So what is happiness then?" It's not just the events of our life. There is something else in the equation at play. And the other thing is your expectation. I expect that my daughter will smile all the time, other than the times where she needs to be more responsible. Okay? So my expectation is when someone fails an exam, they should not be very happy. Okay? Interesting. Now, you put that in an equation and suddenly it becomes very clear. Happiness is events minus expectations, right? If you want to complicate the equation a little bit, it's great- equal to or greater than, because if events beat expectations-
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm
18. MGMo Gawdat
  ... so it's equal to or greater than the perception of events minus your, your expectations of how life should be.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
20. MGMo Gawdat
  Okay? And, and the joke I always tell, and maybe people have heard that before, is rain never makes you happy or unhappy.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
22. MGMo Gawdat
  Right? Rain makes you happy when, uh, it's your ex-boyfriend's, uh, wedding.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
24. MGMo Gawdat
  Right? It makes you very unhappy when it's your wedding.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
26. MGMo Gawdat
  It's the same rain, right? But you don't want it in your wedding. That's your expectation is that life is going to bless your wedding and it's going to pour on his.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
28. MGMo Gawdat
  Okay? And, and so when you realize that, hmm, you suddenly see that, uh, happiness is a lot more manageable. Hmm? And when we talk about that, then you have the interesting definitions I gave you. Events minus expectations means I'm okay with life. Hmm? Events less than expectations-
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm
30. MGMo Gawdat
  ... which is events missing expectations, gives you a very interesting definition of unhappiness, which I think probably in my mind was the turning point for me. Which was not the definition of happiness. It was the definition of unhappiness for two reasons. One is, remember I told you we are born happy. Our, our childlike nature is happy. Hmm?
39:23 – 43:01
Do lower expectations make us happier?
1. AAAli Abdaal
  in inverted commas, that I've never quite been able to square is the response of does that therefore mean that we should just have low expectations for everything in life and, you know, always think of life with a slightly pessimistic outlook so that whatever happens, then life, it's a surprise and it's a good thing?
2. MGMo Gawdat
  Great question.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  And when people say that to me, I kind of think y- yes.
4. MGMo Gawdat
  Yeah.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Uh, yes, asterisk. Well, I don't know what the asterisk is. [laughs]
6. MGMo Gawdat
  If, if, if your, if, if your, if your target in life is to be happy-
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
8. MGMo Gawdat
  ... okay, honestly, then yeah, lower expectations will make you happier.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
10. MGMo Gawdat
  So, you know, if, uh, you know, if you, if you basically tell yourself... I know, I know many friends in my life that decided that they've had enough of life.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
12. MGMo Gawdat
  Uh, you know, the fast-paced lives. They went and lived in the Dominican Republic, and the only thing that would make them unhappy on a day is that there is not enough wind to kitesurf.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Right. [laughs]
14. MGMo Gawdat
  Okay? And they make enough money to live a very simple life, and they wanna kitesurf. That's it. Their expectations are very low. Mm. They don't expect a Ferrari, they don't expect to be able to live in a big city, they don't wanna go to museums. The expectative, expectations are low. And apply that to anything. I go to India, and if, you know, many, many people, hundreds of millions of people, don't expect to eat today, give them a bowl of rice and they're very happy.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
16. MGMo Gawdat
  So if your target is happiness, yeah, that's the way to go. Okay? If your target is success and impact on life, however-
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
18. MGMo Gawdat
  ... you need to go to the opp- you go, you need to go the opposite way.
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
20. MGMo Gawdat
  And, and the opposite way is I need ambition. So, so, you know, when I wrote Solve for Happy at the beginning, I wrote it with the mission of 10 million happy.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
22. MGMo Gawdat
  And then 10 million happy happened very quickly.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
24. MGMo Gawdat
  And my team got together and said, "Maybe we should set a bigger target." So we didn't set 11, we didn't set 100 million, we set a billion happy. Now, a billion happy is a crazy target to have.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
26. MGMo Gawdat
  How many people in the world have reached a billion people?
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
28. MGMo Gawdat
  Right? But, uh, but it's a nice, ambitious, uh, target to aspire to.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
30. MGMo Gawdat
  So when I wake up in the morning, uh, year one, when we've, you know, we've achieved another 10 million or so, mm, I don't tell myself, "That's it, we've achieved, we're done."
43:01 – 57:00
How should we manage ambitions?
1. AAAli Abdaal
  working on-
2. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm
3. AAAli Abdaal
  ... um, which is the dilemma of, uh, what is, what should b- what should be my ambition for the book.
4. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Uh, when it comes to writing, one of the classic accolades is hitting the New York Times bestseller list.
6. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  And so I have this as a very clear thing, like, okay, if I was being, quote, "ambitious" about this, I would be like, "Hey, I want the book to be a New York Times bestseller." But there's something about that, that like when I sit down to write, it, in a way it doesn't, it doesn't feel good, it doesn't feel ... It, it feels like almost demotivating.
8. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm.
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Because that's a thing that's outside of my control.
10. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Whereas when I think of it as the objective of this book is I wanna write a book I'm proud of, and I wanna enjoy the journey along the way.
12. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm.
13. AAAli Abdaal
  That's a very kind of contentment-y type goal rather than an ambitious type goal-
14. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm
15. AAAli Abdaal
  ... I think. And when I lean towards that, then I feel, "Ah, it's all good." I, I feel the parasympathetic r- uh, kind of-
16. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm
17. AAAli Abdaal
  ... activation rather than the sympathetic activation-
18. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm
19. AAAli Abdaal
  ... which is what I feel for the more ambitious goal.
20. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Now I think is great because then I can optimize for happiness and just write the book that I want. But then part of me wonders that like, "Uh, is am, am I missing something by not going for a more ambitious goal, by not putting a number on saying, 'I wanna get a million sales, I wanna get three million sales'"? Because sales translates to impact on the one hand, but also more money and all of the other selfish desires on the other hand. Any, any thoughts about that particular conundrum?
22. MGMo Gawdat
  Lots of thoughts. Okay, so I, I wanna cover this in, if you'll allow me, in two layers.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Fantastic. [laughs]
24. MGMo Gawdat
  So l- layer one is a, a, a very, very important definition. Okay? Uh, you know, we're video gamers, so I, I always say life is like a video game, and we can come back to that conversation in a minute. But if life is a game-
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
26. MGMo Gawdat
  ... there are two types of games that are defined.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep.
28. MGMo Gawdat
  One is an infinite game-
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep
30. MGMo Gawdat
  ... and the other is a finite game. A finite game is a game where there is a target, a destination, and a win. Okay? An infinite game is like Pac-Man. Have you ever checked your score when you were playing Pac-Man? You don't.
57:00 – 1:01:31
You are born a millionaire
1. MGMo Gawdat
  I, I say you are born a millionaire. Okay? Each and every one of us is born with somewhere around 500,000 hours of life-
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
3. MGMo Gawdat
  ... of active life. Okay? Each one of those hours, mm, if you multiply them by 60 minutes, each one of those minutes, mm, you have now 30 million minutes, right? You're a millionaire already. Every minute that you, that you use, you're exchanging that minute for something else.
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
5. MGMo Gawdat
  So your asset, your only asset is 30 million minutes.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
7. MGMo Gawdat
  If I were to spend 2,000 of those minutes with you to create this podcast, mm, what return to my wellbeing, to my life, to my feelings, uh, to my happiness, to my connection to the world, to my value set that those two mi- 2,000 minutes are worth.
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
9. MGMo Gawdat
  Right? If I use them swiping on Instagram, if I use them to make 100 pounds more. And the question is, 100 pounds is worth it. It's a good thing. But if it's exchanged for 2,000 minutes and I can do, uh, something else with the 2,000 minutes, maybe it's not.
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
11. MGMo Gawdat
  And, and the point is within context, when do you stop and say, "No more of my minutes are needed," mm-
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
13. MGMo Gawdat
  ... "to create more and more and more ambition."
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
15. MGMo Gawdat
  Okay?
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, nice.
17. MGMo Gawdat
  Right? That, so that's number one.
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
19. MGMo Gawdat
  Number two is the stoics have always taught you, and most, most religious and spiritual teachings have always taught you to simulate suffering.
20. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep.
21. MGMo Gawdat
  Okay? If you simulate suffering, suddenly you realize, mm, what it is that you actually have, so that you, instead of looking for what you don't and continuing to be ambitious, you start to look at what you have and go like, "This is amazing."
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
23. MGMo Gawdat
  So, you know, I, I, I am m- multi-faith spiritual, if you want to-
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
25. MGMo Gawdat
  ... if you want to describe how I look at life. And I practice a lot of things, you know, meditation from certain reli- you know, prac- uh, spiritual pr- practices. I fast in Ramadan in Islam, and so on and so forth. And I will tell you, we, we... Ramadan was just a month ago, and an incredible experience because you're supposed to not eat and drink and, you know, have sex between sunrise and sunset. Mm. And, and you know, the first day you go like, "Whoa, there are people that live like that, you know, who are somewhere in a desert or who don't have enough to eat. There are people that feel like that." By day 20, Ali, you're like, "I'm the most blessed person on the planet." There are people that live that way 20 days in a row, and I promise you, by day 20, you're like, "This is... I'm so blessed to even have a, a, a glass of water-"
26. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
27. MGMo Gawdat
  ... "at any point." And, and then the next time I sip a cup of tea, I'm like, "Man, that tea really tastes good."
28. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
29. MGMo Gawdat
  And, and by simulating suffering, whe- whether in your head or in practice-
30. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
1:01:31 – 1:09:00
Is solve for happy the domain of the privileged?
1. AAAli Abdaal
  seems like a lot of people achieve a bunch of success first and then realize, "Oh, I'm gonna become a bit of a monk," and become a bit of a spiritual, like, "Oh, it's all about the journey." You know, literally we've released n- notebooks that say [laughs]
2. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm.
3. AAAli Abdaal
  A quote from Brandon Sanderson, "Journey before destination." And I sometimes think that like Is this sort of this whole thing about, you know, Solve For Happy and stuff, the domain of the privileged, where you've already solved for safety and food and shelter, and now you've got the luxury-
4. MGMo Gawdat
  Yes
5. AAAli Abdaal
  ... of solving for happy.
6. MGMo Gawdat
  Yeah.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  And then I often wonder, like, when I'm giving advice in videos, am I talking to the audience that's already solved the basic thingies, or... And, and, and I know there, there will be people in my audience, like sometimes we get comments. I- I- I made a video called Eight Habits That Made Me a Millionaire. It's like, whatever. And one of the comments was, "Bro, I live in like some village in Yemen. I have... I, I struggle to get food and water. Like, easy for you to say all of this." And I think that's a, that's a very good point. Like, I, I, I have no response to that. Um, what do you, what do you, what do you reckon?
8. MGMo Gawdat
  Yeah. Solving for Happy is, uh, the, the... Did you call it the domain of the privileged?
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
10. MGMo Gawdat
  Yeah. We're all privileged. If you're... You know, maybe the, the, the, that gentleman in Yemen is not.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
12. MGMo Gawdat
  But between what you're talking about and where that gentleman in Yemen is, mm, uh, there are seventy-seven hundred million people-
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
14. MGMo Gawdat
  ... that are unhappy while privileged.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Right.
16. MGMo Gawdat
  Okay?
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
18. MGMo Gawdat
  That's number one. Number two, if that gentleman in Yemen had a device, an electronic device connected to the internet-
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
20. MGMo Gawdat
  ... so that he can write that, and he had an hour-
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
22. MGMo Gawdat
  ... of safety to watch your video-
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
24. MGMo Gawdat
  ... or ten minutes of safety to watch your video, then there are seven million others in Yemen that are less privileged than him.
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
26. MGMo Gawdat
  Okay? And, and yes, of course, life for each of us has challenges. But interestingly, life for each of us has lots of blessings. Mm. And, and gratitude, the ability to actually look at life and say, "Yes, I am not going to be a millionaire like Ali, but I am at least not captive as a sex trafficked woman like s- three million women a- in the world." Mm. That ability to look at that actually is what, uh, Viktor Frankl, Frankl teaches us in Man's Search For Reason, is that there is always someone that is less privileged than you. And we go back to that topic of relativity.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm.
28. MGMo Gawdat
  Mm. That, you know, I broke up with my, uh, my, with my boyfriend, someone would say, "I'm brokenhearted." Yes, but you're still privileged compared to the one that didn't.
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
30. MGMo Gawdat
  And her boyfriend's abusing her, for example.
1:09:00 – 1:15:22
Relationships: life is a question of context
1. AAAli Abdaal
  going on in your dating life these days?
2. MGMo Gawdat
  [laughs]
3. AAAli Abdaal
  What's, what's that experience been?
4. MGMo Gawdat
  Why are, why is everyone talking to me about this? I was with Steven yesterday, a couple of days ago, and spoke about the ne- same topic. What's going on in my dating life? Lots. So I, I married, uh, my college sweetheart. Amazing woman, still my best friend. Uh, enriched my life in every possible way. We spent 27 years together, raised a couple of kids together, and then we separated seven years ago, and I tried different models, uh, and realized eventually, which I think actually is not, does not only apply to me, that interestingly, life is a question of context. Hmm.
5. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
6. MGMo Gawdat
  So, so even your dating life is a question of context, that within context, you could want different things in life. And, and for most of us, we have been sold that traditional, uh, uh, way of relationships should look that way. And in Finding Love, my, my, uh, my book about the economics of love and romance, uh, one of my favorite chapters, which is already written, is all the different models.
7. AAAli Abdaal
  Okay.
8. MGMo Gawdat
  And if you look at life in the last 10, 15, 20 years since, you know, dating apps started and since we finally, finally, finally accepted that everyone is free to, to, to live the way they want to live in their sexuality-
9. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm-hmm
10. MGMo Gawdat
  ... and gender identity and so on. Finally, we started to realize that there isn't one model.
11. AAAli Abdaal
  Yep.
12. MGMo Gawdat
  The one model of, "I'm gonna live that life with one person, and there is a contract between us, and it's gonna be a lifetime."
13. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
14. MGMo Gawdat
  There are endless models, endless models today. I am in a place where I finally s- realized around a year ago that I have to say I appreciate my mission and the importance of my mission in my life more than I appreciate a traditional relationship.
15. AAAli Abdaal
  Sorry, you appreciate your mission more than your relationship.
16. MGMo Gawdat
  So I'm much more committed-
17. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
18. MGMo Gawdat
  ... and I'm much more, uh, interested in the success of my One Billion Happy mission-
19. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
20. MGMo Gawdat
  ... than I am in having another traditional relationship.
21. AAAli Abdaal
  Oh, okay. Got it.
22. MGMo Gawdat
  Okay? So, so my life follows very unusual seasons, if you want, and those seasons are not the seasons of a normal person at all.
23. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
24. MGMo Gawdat
  And I, a- a- and I think the, the one thing that drove it home for me is I interviewed Matthieu Ricard, and Matthieu was, um, he's the, he's probably the world most renowned, uh, monk and a, and a good friend. And Matthieu was a, a cellular biology PhD, very, very, very sophisticated-
25. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
26. MGMo Gawdat
  ... uh, person. And then by age 29, if I remember correctly, he left, left the whole world behind and became a monk.
27. AAAli Abdaal
  Hmm.
28. MGMo Gawdat
  And he was well known for his dedication. I mean, sometimes he would go into his hermitage for years at a time alone, in, in isolation. And I asked him, and I said, "Matthieu, why? Why does a monk has to be celibate? Why does a monk have to s- you know, to, to leave the world behind?"
29. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
30. MGMo Gawdat
  And he simply said, "Well, Mo, understand. If I had a woman in my life and children, and I dedicated that, uh, you know, a- and I had, uh, my responsibility for them, it would be so unfair for them when I go following my teachers or when I go in reflection or when I go..." right? "Would be so unfair to them, so you had to make a choice." Now, I'm not a monk for sure, okay? But my choice, hmm, does not allow me to stay in one place where my relationship takes 30% of my day and effort.
1:15:22 – 1:31:51
Feminine vs masculine energy
1. MGMo Gawdat
  one of the very, very controversial topics that I discuss briefly in That Little Voice In Your Head in one chapter, but I discuss deeply in Her, the, the book about the feminine, and in Finding Love- Hmm ... is that we have differences between, uh, us that are not dependent on our body parts, but they are dependent on our, uh, um, uh, you know, um, the way we live our life in the feminine or in the masculine. Each and every one of us has masculine and feminine in them. Okay. But some of us tend to go through life more in their masculine. Hmm. Man or woman, straight or gay, doesn't matter. You- Hmm ... some of us would behave in qualities that are more masculine. Okay. And some of us will behave in qualities that are more feminine. Hmm. Man or woman, straight or gay. What's the difference? If you're a linear thinker, for example, hmm, you're living in your masculine. Could be man or woman, but you're a linear thinker. You, that's the way you analyze your problem. Hmm. Then you are- Hmm ... in your masculine. If you're intuitive, hmm, then you're in your feminine. In every relationship, there is attraction and tension. Hmm. The attraction is what gives the comfort and harmony and beautiful hugs. Hmm. The tension is what creates playfulness, uh, silliness, and sexuality. Hmm. If, if you don't have a little bit of both- Hmm ... the relationship is not complete. Hmm. And the challenge is the tension happens because of those differences. Okay. Because you're a linear thinker and she's intuitive, or the other way around. So those differences, believe it or not, between, between the two partners are like Chinese, hmm, and Czech or, uh, Slovakian- Right ... Slovakian or whatever that is, right? Yeah. I- I ... They're s- totally different languages. Yeah. To the point that when she behaves in a certain way, or your partner, he or she, it doesn't matter, uh, you completely don't get it. And most of the, of the questions I get on the topic, hmm, would be like, "Why is she like that?" Hmm. Like, "What happened?" Right? The only way to find out why she's like that is two steps. Step one is for you to listen, and step two is for her to talk. Hmm. Okay? And for most of us, when we do those things, it's almost in a foreign language. Mm-hmm. It's like she starts to say A, B, C, and you go like, "Why is she saying four, five, six?" Yeah. Right? And the only way to actually start to translate is to pause and say, "I didn't get it. I didn't get it. I didn't get it." I mean, one of, one of the, uh, uh, of the examples of that is I had a person in my life where we were dating, and then we broke up, and then, uh, you know, I love her dearly. She's a wonderful woman. And, you know, last time I was here in London, I couldn't give her enough time, and this ... And she, she was very upset- Hmm ... and she said, you know, "I want you to give me more time." And so this time around, I texted her. Uh, well, I saw her several times. Hmm. And then one of them, I said, uh, I ... And then I texted her and said, "Am I doing better than last time?" Hmm. Okay? Her answer was silence. Total silence. In, in a masculine brain, this is my engineer measuring performance. Yep. Okay? In her feminine side, she was like, "Is this a task on him?" Yeah. "Does he feel that this is a burden on him?" Mm-hmm. Okay? So I waited, because that's what communication is all about. Communication is not just about talking all the time. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Communication is about also silence sometimes. Yeah. Give her some times to think about it, to give me some time to read it again. I waited. Hmm. And then when she answered back and said, "I felt from your answer..." Now, look at what she's done. What she's done here is she allowed herself to talk. Hmm. "I felt from your answer that you feel that it's a burden to spend time with me." Hmm. Okay? What did I do? I waited. Yeah. Because if I responded immediately, it would be an argument. Yeah. Okay? And then a couple of hours later, I responded and I said, "But it could also be understood that I care so much for you to be happy." Yeah. Hmm. "And I was asking if I'm doing the right thing, just in case I wasn't, to be able to do better." Communication. That's great. [laughs] Done. Yeah. Right? And by the way, this, hmm, is so enriching because the minute you get it- Hmm ... hmm, you suddenly look at her and she looks at you, and you go like, "Oh my God, she's so wonderful." She felt that way. This is why it was silence. It's not a fight.
2. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
3. MGMo Gawdat
  She felt that way, it was silence. It's either because I did something shitty-
4. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
5. MGMo Gawdat
  ... or she misunderstood what I, what I did.
6. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
7. MGMo Gawdat
  Okay? Which basically means I need to correct what I did-
8. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm
9. MGMo Gawdat
  ... or maybe I need to explain what I did. And most of the time-
10. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
11. MGMo Gawdat
  ... challenges between couples are, you know ... Honestly, when there is a challenge between a couple-
12. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
13. MGMo Gawdat
  ... I, I basically always say, "That's because you care about each other. If you didn't, you would have walked away."
14. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.
15. MGMo Gawdat
  Right? And, and I think a lot of that really comes to that feminine and masculine.
16. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
17. MGMo Gawdat
  A lot of that comes to the fact that you really are talking Chinese-
18. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah
19. MGMo Gawdat
  ... mm, and she's talking Slovakian or whatever that is.
20. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. Yeah. I recently reread Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.
21. MGMo Gawdat
  Yeah.
22. AAAli Abdaal
  Which talks-
23. MGMo Gawdat
  Great.
24. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah. Actually-
25. MGMo Gawdat
  Great, great illustration of that
26. AAAli Abdaal
  ... I mean, it's, it's quite, it's quite controversial these days. Um, but I mean, hon- honestly, it's, it really helped me ex- pl- understand lots of things.
27. MGMo Gawdat
  It's not if you don't look at men and women.
28. AAAli Abdaal
  Mm.
29. MGMo Gawdat
  Okay? So, so let, let me talk about this concept for a bit, huh?
30. AAAli Abdaal
  Yeah.