The Perfection Trap: Why Perfectionism Is Your Enemy - World Expert Professor Thomas Curran

1. 0:00 – 1:27

   Intro

   1. TCThomas Curran0:00

      Imposter phenomenon is quite strong among perfectionists. You look around and see people who are doing so much better than you or how you think are doing so much better than you, and you think inside, "I have to prove every day I'm good enough."

   2. AAAli Abdaal0:11

      Now, for some people, perfection or perfectionism is a trait to strive for. For most of us, if you listen to this podcast, you're probably vaguely familiar with the personal development world, and you probably know that perfectionism is actually not a very good thing and tends to hold us back in life more than it actually helps us. And so today's episode is very exciting because I'm joined by Thomas Curran, who's actually an assistant professor at the London School of Economics. And Thomas has recently written a book called The Perfection Trap: The Power of Good Enough in a World That Always Wants More.

   3. TCThomas Curran0:37

      Success is a bottomless pit. It depletes us in its pursuit, and just like the horizon, it keeps slipping away the further we get to it. This is how perfectionism operates within the mindset of people. And so of course, you know, when things don't go well, we're gonna turn on ourselves because we weren't perfect in that moment.

   4. AAAli Abdaal0:55

      He has written for the Harvard Business Review. He was featured in New Scientist, and his work has been covered in all sorts of publications, including The Guardian and The Telegraph and The Wall Street Journal. He kind of talks about what we as individuals can do once we know that perfectionism is kind of bad to resist the trappings of society that encourages us to constantly strive for more and strive to constantly be perfect.

   5. TCThomas Curran1:14

      You are a human being. You exist, so you are enough, and I think that's the most important lesson to take through life. Something to remember all the time when things go well or things don't go quite so well. It's okay. You're human. We fail. You are enough.

2. 1:27 – 4:07

   What is the definition of perfectionism?

   1. AAAli Abdaal1:27

      Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for coming on.

   2. TCThomas Curran1:29

      Thank you for having me.

   3. AAAli Abdaal1:29

      Um, you are the author of this fantastic book, The Perfection Trap, and in this episode, I thought we'd talk about all things perfectionism.

   4. TCThomas Curran1:37

      Great.

   5. AAAli Abdaal1:37

      So I wonder if we can get started with, uh, a definition. So what is perfectionism?

   6. TCThomas Curran1:42

      So perfectionism is really a, uh, worldview, I suppose, the, the way we see and interpret the world and our interactions with other people. Um, a lot of people think that it's a very active, optimistic, high-striving, uh, excessively, um, uh, high goals and standards that we hold for ourselves. But actually, that's only part of the story because perfectionists do have excessive standards, but it comes from a place of deficit. So it comes from this place where I'm not good enough, I'm not perfect enough, and therefore I must have these high standards for myself to prove to other people that I'm worth something, that I'm perfect, that I'm flawless. Um, and so really for me, if you want to get at the nub of perfectionism, it's really about that deficit thinking.

   7. AAAli Abdaal2:28

      Ooh, interesting. Um, and one of the things you say in the book is about how we've misunderstood the root cause of perfectionism. I wonder if you can, you can talk a little about that or what have we misunderstood about what causes perfectionism?

   8. TCThomas Curran2:41

      I think the main thing is around where it comes from, and I think a lot of us think that this is kind of a hardwired personality trait that we're kind of born with or that we just possess, um, and that there's very little that we could do about it. It's kind of part of our psychology. And what I tried to do in the book is, is kind of probe that a little bit and look at the data, and we know that about 30% to 40% of perfectionism is genetics. That's to say heritage, so very little we can do about it. We're kind of just born with it. But 30% to 40% leaves a lot for the environment to explain, and my, I guess, uh, exploration of perfectionism as a cultural trait and a, uh, something that's kind of socially learned has, has taught me that there are many factors outside of us that kind of weigh on our need to be perfect, weigh on that deficit thinking. The world around us radiates perfection. The world around us tell- tells us that there's always more to do. There's always bigger, better. We can be fitter, stronger, more attractive. And as a consequence, it isn't only a genetic psychology, psychological personality trait, but it also has, uh, a very strong cultural influence, and that's why in the book I've described it as a cultural phenomenon.

   9. AAAli Abdaal3:58

      Hmm. So how, how do we measure perfectionism? And I guess I, I'm kind of asking in two senses. Firstly, in the studies, how is perfectionism

3. 4:07 – 5:39

   How do you measure perfectionism?

   1. AAAli Abdaal4:07

      measured? And secondly, how would someone listening or watching this be like, "How, how might I identify whether I'm struggling with perfectionism?" for example.

   2. TCThomas Curran4:15

      So as academics, we like to measure things, and what we've done over many decades is listen to perfectionistic people tell us what perfectionism is. What are the main characteristics? What are the main thought processes? What are the main behaviors? And we kind of condensed all that information into a set of items that we can measure perfectionism, uh, on a scale. So you can say, "I strive to be perfect," for instance, and how much do you agree with that statement? Some people might agree a lot. Some people might disagree. Some people are kind of in the middle. And so in order to take a metric or a measure of perfectionism, we kind of ask a string of these kind of questions. We aggregate them, and we see where people sit on that spectrum, and that's kind of typical to most personality traits. So it isn't just perfectionism measured like that. Conscientiousness, extraversion, neuroticism, all of these big personality traits are all measured in the same way. And that's one of the reasons, again, why I talk about in the book perfectionism is not kind of a black or white. It's not, "I am a perfectionist," or, "You aren't a perfectionist," but it's really, you know, where we sit on the perfectionism spectrum, and some of us will be more perfectionistic on that spectrum. Some will be a little less. Most will be, uh, in the middle. And the big contribution, I think, of my work, and also I've updated this data for the book, is showing that that middle bit of the perfectionism spectrum where most of us sit is slowly creeping upwards, and we're seeing growing levels of perfectionism over time, particularly among young people. So that's how we measure it.

   3. AAAli Abdaal5:38

      Ooh,

4. 5:39 – 10:21

   Why is perfectionism bad?

   1. AAAli Abdaal5:39

      okay. Why is perfectionism bad or potentially bad? [chuckles]

   2. TCThomas Curran5:42

      [chuckles] Perfectionism is, is bad, uh, because of this, this idea that there's, there's very-- it k- it's rooted in deficit and a lot of the traits that it's confused with, things like meticulousness, conscientiousness, diligence, perseverance, all of these are great things. But they're not perfectionism. These things include high standards, and they include striving for really good results in what we do, but then don't come from a place of deficit, and that's what differentiates those things from perfectionism. Perfectionism very much comes from, "I'm not good enough, I'm not perfect enough, and I have to prove to myself and other people that I am." Um, and when you start there, you can begin to unpack why perfectionism can be really damaging. So think about it. It comes from a place of deficit. It's the sense that I must move through the world proving to other people that I'm good enough. So in order to do that, I must excel. I must be perfect. I must have high standards. Okay? But what we're doing is we're setting ourselves up for failure because those excessive standards are too high. So what we find ourselves in situations where we're not meeting those standards, we feel like we're failing, we feel like we're looking like a failure to other people, so we feel anxious, our self-esteem plummets, and in order to overcome those feelings and sort of overcompensate, we strive for even higher standards, which means we fail more, which means we feel more anxious, more lower self, self-esteem. And you can begin to see how perfectionism really starts to, uh, become a negative downward spiral that gets entrenched and s- and accelerates the more we overcompensate and the more we encounter setbacks and failures. So, so that's why perfectionism is particularly damaging, because it triggers this spiral of self-defeat, uh, that can be really difficult for people.

   3. AAAli Abdaal7:31

      Hmm. Okay. So, uh, um, so would I be right in saying that the difference between healthy striving and unhealthy perfectionism is what the root cause is?

   4. TCThomas Curran7:40

      Yes.

   5. AAAli Abdaal7:40

      And we're saying that the root cause is a sense of deficit, a sense of, "I am not enough, therefore I must strive for more"-

   6. TCThomas Curran7:45

      Absolutely

   7. AAAli Abdaal7:46

      ... in the unhealthy category.

   8. TCThomas Curran7:47

      Absolutely. And it-- and that's the, that's the difference between perfectionism and these other traits, right? Because these other traits come from a very active, optimistic sense of, "I want to improve, I want to get better, I w- I want to do the best I can do, but importantly, I can let things go. So if I don't quite make that high standard, I'm able to take what's there to be learned and move forward." Unfortunately, perfectionists have a real difficulty in accepting that sometimes we just don't improve, or sometimes we go sideways, or sometimes we even regress. And those things are really catastrophic for the perfectionist because it's really difficult for them to reconcile those feelings without overgeneralizing them to the self, right? "There must be something wrong with me. I haven't succeeded in this case, so therefore I'm flawed-

   9. AAAli Abdaal8:31

      Mm-hmm

   10. TCThomas Curran8:31

       ... and I'm irredeem-- you know, I'm, I'm kind of..." You know, there's kind of a very self-critical, self-loathing mindset that starts to creep in for the perfectionist. So that's the, that's the core difference.

   11. AAAli Abdaal8:40

       Hmm. Yeah, it re- it reminds me of, uh, a few friends I had at university who, you know, the way they would approach studying for exams is a constant striving to avoid failure because, you know, in medical school, the whole like, "Oh, if I fail, I, you know, you know, I was right about myself. I knew I d- I didn't belong in Cambridge Medical School. I knew that. I, I, you know, I, I knew I wasn't good enough to be a doctor, and this is proof. Therefore, I must strive to not fail." And then other, and then other of my friends, including me, we'd kind of t- treat it as a bit of a game, a bit of a competition. It's like, "Oh, you know, it's like, it's like playing a board game with friends." Like, "Oh, you know, what'd you, what'd you get on that exam?" But for those people who were, like, the anti-failure mode, asking, uh, um, asking that question of, "What did you get on, on that exam?" Was like, "Oh my God, like, you know, let's not talk about it. It's the worst thing ever." Like-

   12. TCThomas Curran9:26

       Yeah

   13. AAAli Abdaal9:26

       ... does that vibe with your experience of perfectionism?

   14. TCThomas Curran9:28

       [sighs] Absolutely, and I see it all the time in universities as so many students have a lot of trouble these days accepting that they might not get as good a grade as they thought they were gonna get. And they're really averse to even the slightest bit of critical feedback, so we have to be really careful. And I think that's really the indicative of this kind of perfectionism that's beginning to take over among young people, where they're really fearing the consequences of failures because they're told failure is, can be catastrophic, particularly, like, for your future life chances. So of course, they kind of develop this need to excel at all times and even, like, uh, even an objectively high grade can feel disappointing to the perfectionist, uh, because as I say, it's this kind of idea that it's never quite enough. The better I'm do, the be- the better I do, the better I'm expected to do. And there's always this kind of churning of high and excessive expectations that is really difficult to reconcile with reality.

   15. AAAli Abdaal10:20

       Yeah.

5. 10:21 – 20:28

   Is perfectionism genetic, cultural or gendered?

   1. AAAli Abdaal10:21

      So you said earlier that, um, perfectionism is about 30% to 40% genetic. Uh, what, what does that mean, and how do we know?

   2. TCThomas Curran10:30

      Okay, so about 30% to 40% of perfectionism is genetic, and we know that because classic twin studies where we compare identical and non-identical twins, uh, against adopted siblings, and we look at the similarities in their traits. About 30% to 40% of personality and self-oriented and socially prescribed perfectionism, these are aspects of perfectionism that are measured in these studies, uh, are genetically inherited. That's to say that they come from factors to do with genes. Um, but as I s- as I mentioned earlier, that still leaves a lot for the environment to explain. So perfectionism is very much, uh, n- uh, nature, but it's also, there's a lot of nurture in there too.

   3. AAAli Abdaal11:10

      Hmm. And what other personality traits does perfectionism tend to correlate with?

   4. TCThomas Curran11:15

      So it correlates very strongly with neuroticism. Uh, so perfectionists tend to be highly neurotic. There is a correlation-

   5. AAAli Abdaal11:21

      Oh, sorry. What is n- neuroticism, for people who might not be familiar with the term?

   6. TCThomas Curran11:24

      Neurot- neuroticism is a personality trait, uh, which essentially is rooted in anxiety. Uh, it's a sense of worry and rumination about how we, um, or how we're doing or how we're appearing relative to other people. And, and people who are, who are neurotic tend to be very, uh, unsettled, irritable, anxious. Uh, so we see very high correlation between perfectionism and neuroticism. But there's also interestingly a correlation between perfectionism and conscientiousness, which is a, which is a h- um, sort of rooted in very hard work, diligence, perseverance to tasks. Um, so there's this kind of really yin and yang, I suppose, with perfectionism when it comes to other personality traits. There's some really good things that it correlates with, but it can also correlate to some really negative things. And so this, this is why perfectionism's such a fascinating, uh, personality trait, because it has these kinda two sides, uh, which make it really interesting.

   7. AAAli Abdaal12:14

      And are there any group differences like gender or sex differences, race differences even, between how perfectionism plays out amongst, like, large groups of people?

   8. TCThomas Curran12:22

      Yeah, it's a really good question, and it's one I find really ch- challenging to answer because w- the research that I've done has looked at over 40,000 young people- And, um, let's take gender differences first because a lot of people would think, you know, this is something that's perhaps a little bit higher in, in, uh, women than it is in men. Um, but the data doesn't seem to bear that out, and that's really surprising for us, and it's surprising for other people that I talk to. So when we take these 40,000 people and we try to explain levels of perfectionism based on the number of females in the sample, we don't find anything. There's no difference. And so that's really fascinating that men and women tend to score relatively similar on, uh, aspects of perfectionism. Now, that's not to say that women aren't exposed to environments that trigger perfectionism into a greater degree. That's not to say that the society we live in still has, um, impossible expectations or puts high and excessive expectations on women more so than it does on men. I think we can have that discussion, and I think that would-- there would be a lot of validity to that claim. However, in terms of levels, we don't see a great deal of difference. To your, uh, ethnicity question, we just don't have the data, sadly. But I-- we do have some data that shows some interesting cross-cultural differences for perfectionism. So in individualistic cultures, we tend to see perfectionism and this kind of self perfectionism comes from within, this kind of sense that I need to be perfect, uh, tends to be quite high, a very dominant aspect to perfectionism. Where in more collectivistic cultures, we tend to see perfectionism, this kind of social element of perfection, a kind of sense that everybody around me expects me to be perfect, uh, tends to be quite dominant and quite high. So there's some interesting cultural differences in how perfectionism expresses. Um, but gender is the one that we were surprised by, and we don't really find anything there.

   9. AAAli Abdaal14:15

      Okay, interesting. Um, so two points on that. Firstly, on the gender one, that, that surprises me because, again, I, I could be wrong about this, but I thought that neuroticism and conscientiousness are both slightly skewed towards female and therefore if perfectionism correlates with those... At least-- And also anecdotally, like most of the people I know who would identify as perfectionists tend to, tend to be girls. [laughs] But like, yeah, I guess you guys have looked at 40,000 people worth of, worth of data.

   10. TCThomas Curran14:38

       Do you know what?

   11. AAAli Abdaal14:39

       Yeah.

   12. TCThomas Curran14:39

       We, we... It surprised us too. It's, it's one of those things where, you know, our data set is probably the biggest perfectionism data set th- uh, that we, we have. Um, and, you know, when we threw that variable into our regression model, we were expecting to see something, and it's, it's really striking that we didn't.

   13. AAAli Abdaal14:57

       Yeah.

   14. TCThomas Curran14:58

       You know, these aren't perfect correlations. They probably share about twenty-five to thirty percent of variance, which is quite strong for, you know, psychological variables, but it certainly by no means is there complete overlap between these personality traits. So it doesn't necessarily, uh, it doesn't necessarily correl- uh, suggest if one correlate with the other that there would also have higher, higher mean levels in the aggregate. But yeah, we were surprised by that, and it's one of those findings that we're still, we're still looking at trying to figure out, you know, what's happening there. But as I say, I think there are contextual factors that, that make, uh, women a, a little more vulnerable to the impacts of perfectionism, but mean levels not so much.

   15. AAAli Abdaal15:37

       Hmm. I w- w- I wanna put a quick bookmark in that, contextual factors. I think it would be, it would, it would be definitely good to talk about that.

   16. TCThomas Curran15:43

       Yeah.

   17. AAAli Abdaal15:43

       On, on the cultural fron- front, so you said kind of individualistic versus collectivist cultures, which generally means sort of like West versus East i- uh, in a sort of broad brushstroke.

   18. TCThomas Curran15:52

       Yeah.

   19. AAAli Abdaal15:53

       So like, like would it, would it be fair to say that, for example, like becau-- like for example, I know a lot of people who are perfectionistic who are from like India, Pakistan, kind of I'm from Pakistan.

   20. TCThomas Curran16:02

       Yeah.

   21. AAAli Abdaal16:02

       All my, you know, mates from like whose families are Chinese, there's this whole vibe of like kind of the Asian parent, uh, kind of phenotype of Asian parent, Asian families expects the, the child to be very, very good at the thing.

   22. TCThomas Curran16:16

       Mm.

   23. AAAli Abdaal16:16

       But then if I think of like my white friends, they tend not to have the family expectation, and yet they still struggle with perfectionism.

   24. TCThomas Curran16:22

       Yeah.

   25. AAAli Abdaal16:22

       So is that what you're g- you're kind of what you're getting at [laughs] with this sort of in a collectivist versus individualistic kind of vibe?

   26. TCThomas Curran16:28

       That's exactly what we're getting at there. There's a kind of an indepen- interdependency, uh, in collectivistic cultures whereby a lot of the community and people around individuals support, push maybe, uh, and that can impact on people's psychology. That's not quite as strong in individualistic cultures, but what is a bit stronger is this kind of sense that it's up to you and only you to make something of yourself.

   27. AAAli Abdaal16:54

       Yeah.

   28. TCThomas Curran16:54

       Anything of yourself, right? So there's this kind of w- this kind of self perfectionism really comes through a lot stronger in that kind of culture because it's really on the individual, and I think that's what's happening here with those differences.

   29. AAAli Abdaal17:06

       Got it. So we mentioned, um, you know, when it comes to the gender differences, there are cultural or societal factors that maybe affect some groups differently to others. Do you have a sense of what those, what those are?

   30. TCThomas Curran17:19

       Okay, that's a really big question to unpack. But f- in the book, I try to pinpoint several different areas of life, uh, where perfectionism is really- Uh, dominant or where perfectionism is accentuated, lionized, um, kind of amplified. Uh, and those, those k- those core factors are within consumer culture and this kind of idea that we're, we're, we're held perpetually in a sense of deficit because, you know, that's what helps us consume and work and keeps the economy spinning on its axis. Uh, social media, which kind of takes that kind of model and, and puts it into a social platform where we're the content creators that create this kind of aura of discontent where targeted ads can thrive. Uh, I talk about, uh, schools and colleges and how it's really, really, uh, t- tough right now for young people to excel in school and in college 'cause competition is so fierce and they need to be so much better, uh, than their contemporaries just to get into the elite colleges which a- allow them access to the elite jobs. Uh, and then of course the workplace itself. It's a really insecure workplace right now for young people. It's completely changed from when our parents were at work. It's all about the hustle, all about the grind, it's all about the individual, and that can also, uh, perpetuate a sense of perfectionism. Now, within those, those key things, of course there's gonna be certain subgroups that are much more exposed than others. That's not to say that, you know, that, uh, they have it easier because I think everybody in this world is exposed to a lot of pressure these days, so I have to be clear there. But certainly, uh, I would say that there is a lot of expectation on, on young women, particularly when we look at things like social media and the world of advertising, to kind of look and appear a certain way, to hold a certain, um, personality, beha- uh, uh, speak and behave in certain ways, which I think men sometimes get a bit of a pass on. So I think there is, uh, definitely expectations on women that are greater than th- in many cer- certain areas, particularly when it comes to image and appearance, and that still is the case. Um, and also some subgroups of people. You know, people from, um, lower down the social class, um, hierarchy, you know, they have to lift themselves much further than f- than other people, and they start from way back, and that can create a sense of and a need to excel and overachieve in order to clear those structural hurdles. Uh, and of course there's also, uh, still racial prejudices, discrimination that we see in society, and people from marginalized backgrounds and underrepresented backgrounds also have a really tough time kind of pushing through those structural boundaries. So it's not just about class, but it's also about ethnic background where, you know, that can also weigh on, uh, their sense that they need to do so much better than other people just to stay in the same place.
6. 20:28 – 21:58

   If their data around childhood and perfectionism?

   1. AAAli Abdaal20:28

      Uh, when you mentioned the perfectionism stuff, it reminded me of some stuff that I've read around, uh, kids who feel, uh, sort of abandoned by their parents when they were younger and as can often end up becoming perfectionistic and, like, they're, "Oh, okay. Cool. I guess Mommy doesn't love me unless I do well on my exam, therefore let me continue to do well on my exams." Is that, is that a, is that a thing that, that the data shows as well?

   2. TCThomas Curran20:52

      Yeah. So Ali, I've gotta be a bit careful here 'cause I'm not a clinical psychologist, um, so going into areas of sort of trauma and early life, uh, experiences is not my area. However, what I will say is I've studied a lot of clinical work in perfectionism, and we know that there is a strong correlation between early life trauma and, uh, later life perfectionism, and one of the big things there is this kind of sense of abandonment, this kind of sense that I wasn't, I wasn't enough to be approved of, to, to, to be loved essentially. And as a consequence, that's carried through into older, older adulthood where we never really feel like, um, we, uh, are good enough. We never really feel like we deserve other people's love and approval, and as a consequence we overcompensate. We tend to be very anxious, and this is why there can be some significant, you know, mental health problems that are associated with perfectionism that's rooted in that early life distress. But I would say that that's probably a discussion for a clinical psychologist rather than me as a social psychologist. Um, but the, but the point is definitely valid and there is a definite role for early life experiences in later life perfectionism.

   3. AAAli Abdaal21:57

      Nice. Um,

7. 21:58 – 28:02

   Healthy striving vs perfectionism

   1. AAAli Abdaal21:58

      we talked earlier about how perfectionism is kind of on a spectrum, um, or like a s- a scale and it's not, it's not black or white. Um, and in the book you talk about your grandfather as an example of potentially, like, healthy striving rather than perfectionism. I wonder if you can tell that story 'cause I think it, it's quite illustrative.

   2. TCThomas Curran22:13

      Yeah. So my grandfather of another era, and I think this also is an important factor in this conversation because, uh, I think my per- my grandfather would have a little bit of perfectionism if he came through today. But he came through in a, in an era where there wasn't such demands. There wasn't five-star reviews and everybody's providing feedback on your work. He was a carpenter, by the way. So now he would of course have a MyBuilder profile and everybody would be reviewing his work [laughs] and it would be really a lot more, uh, pressurized than I guess it was in his day. However, I used to love going to watch my grandfather build things. He was a master craftsman. He really had an eye for detail, and he created some just, you know, from the vantage point of a child, some amazing things. And I think what's really, what I remember most about my grandfather is that, you know, he didn't have this kind of hang-up that I have about, "Well, is it good enough? Can I send it out into the world?" He just made everyday things that people needed, and he delivered those things to their new homes, didn't loiter for validation or a five-star review or a fire emoji. He just kind of left them there. [laughs]

   3. AAAli Abdaal23:19

      Yeah.

   4. TCThomas Curran23:20

      And, and, and that was ... And it was his vocation, right? Like, that was his role. He just wanted to leave everyday things in the world for other people to use, and that is an extremely different way to move about life, to, to go about your working and professional life than the way that perfectionists like me go about it, which is essentially, "Oh, goodness. I hope people like it. I hope they give it a good review. I hope they're not gonna criticize me or find what I'm saying, um, you know, uh, uh, upsetting or whatever." You know, you... 'Cause these are the doubts that us perfectionists harbor all the time. My grandfather had no such hangups. He wanted to do well, and he wanted to prove to other people, of course, that he was a good craftsman. But if he didn't do things perfectly, if he left a bit of varnish or, you know, left a little screw just jutting imperceptibly above the wood, he'd let those mistakes wash through him.

   5. AAAli Abdaal24:15

      Mm.

   6. TCThomas Curran24:15

      As sure a sign of his fallibility as his wrinkles or scia- sciatica. And I think that's, for me, that's what differentiates a r- a conscientious, a, a ch- um, a, a striver or a conscientious person from a perfectionistic person.

   7. AAAli Abdaal24:30

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8. 28:02 – 36:42

   Your experience and strategies

   1. AAAli Abdaal28:02

      You mentioned you're, you're a perfectionist yourself.

   2. TCThomas Curran28:05

      Yes.

   3. AAAli Abdaal28:05

      What sort of perfectionist traits do you see in yourself?

   4. TCThomas Curran28:08

      Uh, worry about what other people think, worry about, uh, whether I'm doing enough, uh, worry about my place and whether I belong. Uh, imposter phenomenon is quite strong among perfectionists, particularly perfectionists that have come from, you know... Uh, I've come from a working class background into a middle class world, and you often doubt yourself. You wonder if you deserve to be there. You wonder if your work's of a certain standard. You look around and see people who are doing so much better than you or how you think are doing so much better than you, and you, and you think inside, "I have to prove every day that I'm good enough, that I deserve to be here, and that I'm trying to disguise this kind of flawed and inadequate person that I think I am inside." Now, I'm doing so much better now. This was something that consumed me in my 20s and led to s- quite significant mental health problems, which is pro- what prompted me to really take an interest in this topic. I'm able to let things go now. I'm able to try to strive a bit more like my grandfather did his striving and kind of let things go and accept that not everybody's gonna be happy with what you say and not everybody's gonna think that your work is amazing, and that's okay. That, you know, sometimes you're gonna slip up and do a really bad lecture or answer a question in a way that's suboptimal, and also that's okay. So I'm learning, I'm learning-

   5. AAAli Abdaal29:25

      Mm

   6. TCThomas Curran29:25

      ... uh, to get on top of my perfectionism. But nevertheless, it's certainly something that I, I definitely suffer with.

   7. AAAli Abdaal29:32

      So what strategies have you used to get better at this over the last, I'd say, like, say, 10 years?

   8. TCThomas Curran29:37

      The biggest one for me is to just let life happen. And I think there's a real impulse in this culture to happen in the world as if everything and all around us can be mastered, can be perfected, um, can in some way be overcome. Sometimes for no good reason we fail. Sometimes things happen to us that we have no control over. And accepting that fact is really the first big step in breaking through perfectionism, because then you are ready and prepared that for, for to have a sort of goal in your mind of where you want to go, that you're kind of aware that this is where I want to be. But you know that the journey to get there is not gonna be straightforward. It's gonna have, uh, lots of headwinds, lots of stumbling blocks, lots of setbacks, things that you can't control, that you have to be very agile in navigating, that you have to accept that sometimes you're gonna stand still and go nowhere for a few months. Sometimes you're even gonna regress. You know, you're gonna think you've mastered something and suddenly something comes along that teaches you actually you didn't know what you were doing [chuckles] in the first place and you have to relearn these things. And so life is a really jagged path, and instead of kind of trying to meet every setback by trying to force yourself forward and avoid, uh, encountering those difficulties, putting things off, procrastinating, worrying about what other people think, just allowing it, allowing the anxiety in, allowing the worry in, allow-- just sitting comfortably next to, next to situations when things aren't quite going to plan and keeping on going, keeping on towards that ultimate goal. I think that for me is the biggest, the biggest difference between how I used to think and how I think now, because it's so much more psychologically liberating when you can understand that things aren't gonna always go to plan.

   9. AAAli Abdaal31:30

      Mm.

   10. TCThomas Curran31:30

       And that's okay. We can sit with that.

   11. AAAli Abdaal31:33

       Hmm. Yeah, that seems to be a thing that, I mean, almost every spiritual teaching also goes towards that. Like, you know, if even if we think of the ancient philosophies like Stoicism, it seems like all of these different ways of tackling life, uh, end up on the conclusion of allow things to happen as they are, live in the present moment, don't live in the past or in the future, which causes essentially sadness and anxiety, worrying about the future. But if we can just focus on what's within our control-

   12. TCThomas Curran32:03

       Yes

   13. AAAli Abdaal32:03

       ... and just keep going, put one foot in front of the other. All, all of those cliches, but they-- I think those cliches are a cliche for a reason, 'cause there's like universal truth behind them.

   14. TCThomas Curran32:14

       Yeah.

   15. AAAli Abdaal32:14

       But also I think they're almost too easy to dismiss in the sense that if someone is struggling with perfectionism, they might hear about, I don't know, Epictetus' like dichotomy of control or whatever, and be like, "Oh yeah, of course I should, you know, just do the, you know, you know, God grant me the serenity to accept that which, that, that which I can-- I can't control." But it's a lot easier said than done.

   16. TCThomas Curran32:35

       Absolutely.

   17. AAAli Abdaal32:36

       Um, yeah.

   18. TCThomas Curran32:37

       And it's easier for some people than it is for others. And let's be honest about this. A lot of, uh, self-help is predicated on this notion that, you know, um, being more meditative, positive thinking, s- caring for yourself when things haven't gone well. These are all very noble things to advise. But some people are in situations where doing those things, being authentic, letting things happen, is a really difficult thing to do. Because if you're poor and you let things happen and things don't go well, the impact of that is-- can be catastrophic. It can mean losing your tenancy. It could mean surviving on minimum wage. So the-- So, you know, I think this is why I try to impress in the book that y- this, this idea of kind of letting things go isn't created equally. For some people, the consequences of that are far more severe than other people. And I think we have to be really, uh, cognizant as a, as a society that, yes, there are individual things that we can do that are important, but we also as a, as a collective have a responsibility to help people become more serene in the way that they live, allow things to happen and, and that the consequences of when things go wrong be not as catastrophic as sometimes they can be in today's society. So yes, it's an individual's, uh, uh, issue that I think a lot, you know, that we need to work on, but also as a collective, I think there's things we can do as a society too.

   19. AAAli Abdaal34:02

       Mm.

   20. TCThomas Curran34:02

       So I just-- I think one of the things I'm really keen to caveat in this book is not just go all in on this kind of authenticity, be vulnerable, show yourself, allow things to happen, without also acknowledging that that's easier for some people to do than it is for others.

   21. AAAli Abdaal34:15

       Yeah. No, that's a good point. There's that, there's that classic thing that people say around, you know, anxiety and things that like, oh, you know, it's, you know, fundamentally rooted in fear. The amygdala was designed to, you know, save us from getting mauled by a saber-toothed tiger and was also in caveman eras designed to help us combat social threats.

   22. TCThomas Curran34:33

       Yeah.

   23. AAAli Abdaal34:34

       And now it's gone haywire because actually those same survival mechanisms are no longer serving us.

   24. TCThomas Curran34:39

       Yeah.

   25. AAAli Abdaal34:39

       But I guess what we're saying is that actually for some people, they are genuinely survival mechanisms.

   26. TCThomas Curran34:43

       Yeah.

   27. AAAli Abdaal34:44

       If you can't make rent and you end up on the streets, that is a survival mechanism.

   28. TCThomas Curran34:47

       It is. It really is.

   29. AAAli Abdaal34:48

       Compared to if your book does not hit the New York Times bestseller list and only hits the Sunday Times, whatever the hell, whatever the hell they sell. [chuckles] There's like-- there are different levels of actually some things are threatening people's survival and others aren't-

   30. TCThomas Curran34:59

       Absolutely
9. 36:42 – 42:52

   The multidimensional model of perfectionism

   1. AAAli Abdaal36:42

      but before we do that, I thought we'd touch on the multidimensional model of perfectionism. So we kind of alluded to this a little bit when talking about Asians versus white people, but like, um, what is the munti- multidimensional model of perfectionism?

   2. TCThomas Curran36:54

      So the multidimensional model of perfectionism is really a, uh, an acknowledgement that perfectionism is more than just personal standards. So as I mentioned, perfectionism really starts with this kind of deficit thinking, but that can be expressed in so many different ways. And that over decades of talking to perfectionistic people, we've realized that perfectionism isn't just about, "I need to be perfect and, uh, if I'm not perfect, I'm highly self-critical of myself." This is called self-oriented perfectionism, right? Self-oriented perfectionism comes from the self. And yes, this is a very dominant aspect of perfectionism, particularly in individualistic cultures, but it's not the only one. Speaking to perfectionistic people, that we also find there's a particularly pernicious social root to perfectionism too. So the sen-sense that, uh, perfectionistic people tend to feel like the social environment, uh, around them is highly expectant of perfection and is very judgmental, and it's called socially prescribed perfectionism. So socially prescribed perfectionism, perfectionists kind of hear very snide remarks about them everywhere they go. They feel like people are judging them highly and they n- and they're expected to be perfect. And then there's a third aspect called other-oriented perfectionism, which is kind of perfectionism that's turned outwards onto other people. So I expect you to be perfect, and if you're not perfect, then I'm very judgmental and very harsh and very punitive. And these three aspects of perfectionism are really what we understand to be a multidimensional perf- uh, model of perfectionism that isn't just one thing like high standards, high self-set standards and striving, but also has social elements like social prescribed and also other-oriented. And together, these are the three aspects of perfectionism that I outline in the book.

   3. AAAli Abdaal38:29

      Hmm. Yeah, okay. So I'm just gonna read out a few, um, you know, for people in, um, who are, who are watching or listening, this is, I think, one of the s- the multidimensional perfectionism scales, just to give people a sense of-

   4. TCThomas Curran38:41

      Yeah

   5. AAAli Abdaal38:41

      ... these, these three different things. So self-oriented perfectionism, and I guess as you, as you're listening or watching to this, um, sort of have a think about, like to what extent do you kind of s- agree or disagree with these phrases as they relate to you? So self-oriented perfectionism, "I must be perfect at, at the things that matter to me. If I screw up or fall short, I'm hard on myself. I hold myself to an exceptionally high standard. If I do not appear or perform perfectly, I feel a lot of guilt and shame, and I strive to be perfect." And those are all the self-oriented perfectionism things. We've got five things for socially prescribed perfectionism. "When I slip up or fall short, people are right there waiting to criticize me. Everyone else is perfect, and they're judging me if I'm not perfect too. Those close to me will accept nothing less than perfection. People tend to get upset with me if I don't do things perfectly, and everybody expects me to be perfect." Then we have other-oriented perfectionism. "I find it difficult to tolerate substandard performances from those around me. If people aren't trying their absolute hardest, I let them know. Everyone should totally excel at things that are important to them. When someone close to me screws up or falls short, it's important to call them out, and I dislike being surrounded by people who've got low standards." Um, so we'll put this questionnaire in the show notes and the video description as well, if you fancy, whoever's listening to this, um, sort of, uh, rating yourself on these things. Um, the other-oriented perfectionism one I thought was interesting 'cause I would not have thought that that would come under the definition of perfectionism 'cause that's more like having high standards, I guess, or perfectionistic standards for the people around you.

   6. TCThomas Curran40:15

      Yes, but you have to, uh, remember where it comes from. So other-oriented perfectionists, uh, are, are doing what Freud would call projection. So this sense that, you know, I have a burning need to be perfect, and if I'm gonna haul myself over hot coals to get there, you are gonna do it too because that's only fair. And so you tend to find that people high in, high in perfectionistic tendencies can sometimes, uh, point those tendencies outwards. Not all the time, you know, not everyone is an other-oriented perfectionist. A lot of people like myself wouldn't dream of, of, of imposing the standards that I pl-place on myself, but you tend-- you can find that some people do. And a good example would be Steve Jobs is someone I write about in the book who's clearly a, an, you know, incredible, uh, entrepreneur, business person, is, you know, one of the most successful, if not the most successful, uh, in the, in the world. Um, but you know, he was a complicated man at the same time and, and, uh, uh, autobiographical accounts show that he was a perfectionistic person, uh, expected perfection in his own life, expected perfection of himself, but also importantly, expected perfection of other people. And when they weren't up to his standard, tell-- he let them know. And, and that is an e- an example of someone who has high standards for themselves but can sometimes turn them out onto other people. And that's why we f- we find sometimes, you know, when perfectionistic people talk to us, come into the, uh, you know, a clinical s- uh, uh, environment or even just come into a research environment and they tell us about their perfectionism, one of the things sometimes we see is this kind of other-oriented perfectionism.

   7. AAAli Abdaal41:53

      Hmm, okay. And do you find that those people are also like, uh, or tend to be perfectionistic in themselves? Or can you have pure other-oriented perfectionism without actually feeling the effects of it your own in-internally?

   8. TCThomas Curran42:05

      Really good question. Uh, I don't touch on this in the book actually, but it-- let's go into it 'cause it is, it is a, it is a ve- very interesting question. So the answer is, it depends. So what we tend to see is those who've got high levels of perfectionism, self-oriented perfectionism fused with or combined with high levels of other-oriented perfectionism, right? Can, can r- demonstrate what we would consider to be v- really highly perfectionistic tendencies that has an impact on them and those around them.

   9. AAAli Abdaal42:35

      Hmm.

   10. TCThomas Curran42:35

       And that can have negative consequences for their social relationships. It can also have n- negative, uh, consequences for their own mental health. Now, there is a case that we've looked at in the literature where you can see these high standards divorced from perfectionism, but fused with something called narcissism. And so w- we call

10. 42:52 – 45:08

    Perfectionism and narcissism

    1. TCThomas Curran42:52

       this kind of narcissistic perfectionism, which is something that I, I haven't touched on in the book because I think it's kind of quite, quite separate, um, to the issues that I wanted to tackle. But nevertheless, there's some really interesting studies on this that I've done myself, where you tend to find other-oriented perfectionism, uh, doesn't come with perfectionistic tendencies, but instead comes fused with narcissism. And so these people have a sort of grandiose, uh, view of themselves, and therefore they, they, uh, almost kind of channel that grandiosity into expectations that they th- they, they expect for other people. And, um, and that isn't necess- you know, it doesn't have the same, uh, interpersonal consequences, that is to say psychological consequences for the person themselves, but has significant, uh, implications for the people that these, these, uh, individuals interact with.

    2. AAAli Abdaal43:39

       Yeah.

    3. TCThomas Curran43:39

       Because, um, it's a very, very draining... Let's imagine you had a narcissistic perfectionist boss. That would be a very draining way to work. That would be an extremely difficult working environment, trying to navigate those tendencies. Um, and so you can have it without self-oriented perfectionism, um, and it can be fused with narcissism.

    4. AAAli Abdaal44:02

       I'm just thinking back to all my interactions with my team and thinking, "Uh-oh." [both laughing] Have I? But okay, so, so what are the... Again, w- what's the, what's the difference between having high standards and being a narcissistic perfectionist? Is it just a matter of degree?

    5. TCThomas Curran44:17

       Well, let's put it this way. The perfectionist doesn't believe the bulletproof narrative they're trying to construct for themselves deep down, right? They feel like they're inefficient, they're flawed, and they're not worth anything, and that's why they try to project perfection to prove to other people and gain the validation and approval of other people, so that as kind of props for their self-esteem, which is really low. Narcissists are very different. Their self-esteem is really high because they believe the narrative, the bulletproof narrative that they're constructing for themselves. They actually take on that image and think that they are, um, the perfect worker boss, that they, you know, that they're projecting outside onto other people. That's the critical difference between a perfectionist and a narcissist.

    6. AAAli Abdaal45:06

       Okay, got it. Um,

11. 45:08 – 50:02

    How does perfectionism contribute to lower productivity?

    1. AAAli Abdaal45:09

       in what way does perfectionism contribute to lower, I guess, productivity?

    2. TCThomas Curran45:15

       Okay, that's a-- I love this question because the answer is fascinating. So w- you would think, wouldn't you, that perfectionists would succeed, and that's kind of very, a common, uh, conventional wisdom I guess, in broader society, right? The perfectionist is these kind of really high over-strivers, and as a consequence, they succeed. We know that there's baggage. We know that there's kind of mental health problems that can coexist with perfectionism. But on the other hand, these, these people are really high achievers and, you know, you can point to high-profile perfectionists, Serena Williams, Victoria Pendleton, Steve Jobs, uh, Demi Lovato. You know, all these people are self-confessed perfectionists, made it to the top of their professions, clearly really talented and high-achieving, and therefore, it must be the perfectionism that, that propelled them there. When we look at the data, however, we find no relationship between perfectionism and performance. And this is really curious because they've worked so hard, they've put everything into their activities, and yet they don't seem to perform any better. Why is that? Well, there's two reasons. One reason is that they work hard, but they work too hard. So what you tend to see is this kind of declining and then diminishing returns to any un- extra unit of input. So they work to the max and then beyond. They sacrifice rejuvenating activities like diet, sleep, good, uh, healthy behaviors like exercise, for instance. We know they're rejuvenating. We know these things help with work performance. They don't do them. They burn out, and we know there's strong correlation with perfectionism and burnout. So this is kind of one of the reasons why perfectionists struggle to perform, perhaps to the, to the extent that their effort would, would suggest they should do. But the second reason is a really fascinating reason, and one that we've been really keen to look at in the lab. And the second reason is perfectionists find it really s- tough when things start to go wrong. So if you give perfectionists a task to do, you say, "Look, you should comfortably achieve this, uh, outcome, uh, on this task." And you say, "Go ahead and do it." So we put people in the lab, uh, s- and we use sport, 'cause sport's a really good microcosm of sort of more competitive, uh, society more generally. And we say, "Okay, you should comfortably complete this distance in this time on this cycling task, right? So go away and do it." We get them to do it. They work really, really hard, and then at the end, we tell them, "Unfortunately, you didn't quite make the target we set." And then we do something really naughty. We say, "Try again." Now, the perfectionistic people, when they are given that failure feedback, feel so sh- ashamed of that and embarrassed of that failure that they will do everything they possibly can to avoid feeling those things again. So on the second trial, what we see is the effort drops off a cliff, because you can't fail at something you didn't try. So as soon as they encounter situations of almost certain defeat, where they know putting everything of themselves into it is not gonna end well- They just withhold. Now, people who aren't particularly perfectionistic do the complete opposite. When we tell them to do it again, their effort doesn't change. If anything, it goes up slightly. And that is another reason why perfectionists really struggle to perform, because it's fine when things are going well. But as soon as things start to go wrong and there's a high chance of failure, they withdraw themselves. Now, that's in the lab. How does that look in real life? Well, in real life, they procrastinate. They find anxiety-provoking situations, things that are really tough, really hard to get going. They see the task ahead of them. They know it's gonna be too challenging. And so the mental energy and the anxiety that that's stirring up in them is so fierce that they'll just completely withhold the, withhold effort. So they'll stop doing things. They'll procrastinate. They'll watch the latest Netflix series. They'll go and cook up the latest TikTok recipe. Anything to avoid facing the anxiety of doing a task that needs to get done. Now, of course, that helps. It eases that anxiety for that moment. But in the end, they're just damaged by the passage of time, and as a consequence, the work goes in late, or it's substandard, or it's not as good as it could've been because we're under these time pressures, because of the withdrawal and the procrastination that we're engaging in, which again, is not conducive to high performance. So it's a really, really fascinating topic, this one, and I wanted to cover it in a s- in a s- a separate chapter in the book because I think it's really important that people understand that, yes, perfectionism has a kind of sense that it, it's this, you know, positive motivational force. But actually, when you dig deeper, when you look closer, you tend to find that perfectionists really struggle to perform.

    3. AAAli Abdaal49:51

       Hmm. It's almost like a self-sabotaging behavior, right?

    4. TCThomas Curran49:55

       Yeah, exactly. That is exactly what it is. Perfectionists are world-class self-sabotagers.

    5. AAAli Abdaal50:00

       [chuckles] Is this something

12. 50:02 – 53:00

    Self sabotage

    1. AAAli Abdaal50:02

       that you've struggled with?

    2. TCThomas Curran50:03

       Absolutely. I mean, you know, my book is two years overdue. [chuckles] My editor was ready to throttle me, I think, as I, you know, as I was still tinkering with it at the, you know, the day before it was to go to press. Uh, you know, we just can't help ourselves because we just want things to be perfect, and we find it really challenging psychologically for them not to be, so we tinker, we iterate, we work too hard, we put things off. Um, we, we kind of manage our anxiety in suboptimal ways. And, uh, obviously, a better way to handle that would just be to get things done, to get things on the page. You know, this idea that done is better than perfect. I know that, and I try as hard as I can to engage with that mantra, but it's tough, particularly when you're putting a book out into the world, you know, for everyone to read. I mean, that's really, that's a big thing.

    3. AAAli Abdaal50:53

       Yeah. No, I know the feeling. Um-

    4. TCThomas Curran50:55

       [chuckles]

    5. AAAli Abdaal50:56

       ... one of the things that, um, my writing coach helped me realize was I had a lot of perfectionistic tendencies when it came to writing a book.

    6. TCThomas Curran51:04

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AAAli Abdaal51:05

       And I don't really have those with making YouTube videos, even though a YouTube video might get a million views, which is more views than my book is ever gonna sell copies of. [chuckles]

    8. TCThomas Curran51:13

       [chuckles]

    9. AAAli Abdaal51:13

       So, like, for some reason, when it comes to a YouTube video, I feel more chill about putting myself out there in that sense, I guess because I've made, like, 700 of them at this point over the last six years. But the thought of a book, oh my God, a book is a big deal.

    10. TCThomas Curran51:25

        Yeah.

    11. AAAli Abdaal51:26

        And my writing coach was like, "Why are you thinking that a book is a big deal?" I was like, "I don't know, 'cause it's in bookshops." And he was like, "Why does that make it a big deal?" And we kind of, like, went on this l- line of questioning, and I kind of realized the reason a book is a big deal is because it is more open to criticism than a random video is. Because a random video will be seen by people who already like me, and that's fine. But a book might be bought by someone who doesn't know who I am, doesn't know anything about me.

    12. TCThomas Curran51:49

        Ah.

    13. AAAli Abdaal51:49

        And I can just imagine the Amazon reviews. "This guy thinks he knows anything about productivity. What a fricking twat."

    14. TCThomas Curran51:55

        [chuckles]

    15. AAAli Abdaal51:55

        "Like, how dare he suggest that?" Like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I c- I can just imagine reading those and knowing in my h- in my mind that, yeah, haters gonna hate, and, you know, this person's just expressing a preference, and, like, it's all good, water under the bridge. But in reality, the, the feeling of like, "Oh, no, my work is being criticized and judged." Yeah.

    16. TCThomas Curran52:12

        Oh, yeah, at some level it's gonna... It, you, you can try to brush it off, but at some level, it's always gonna impact you, right? And I think that's really interesting what you say in terms of, you know, you have a level of comfort with the, with the things that you know you do well, the things that you know, uh, uh, attract viewers, that gain a lot of, um, attention. Whereas with something that you're not quite sure about yet because it's the first time you've done it and you haven't really tested it with, with the outside world, that can be really, like... Psychologically, that can be a real challenge. So I think it's, it, you, what you're expressing there is, you know, what I feel, I think what most people feel, and it isn't just, you know, about writing books. It's whenever we push ourselves out of our comfort zone, there's always that trepidation. And if you're perfectionistic, that trepidation is gonna be amplified.

    17. AAAli Abdaal52:58

        Nice.

13. 53:00 – 1:11:06

    Action points to get over perfectionism

    1. AAAli Abdaal53:00

       So we spent, um, some time talking about, I guess, uh, the misconceptions and the causes and the kind of root causes of perfectionism, and we've hinted on one of the action points that you found helpful, which was this thing of letting life wash over you and being, being okay with how things turn out. I wonder if we can go over some more action points. So for someone listening and watching this far who might vibe with perfectionism in their own life-

    2. TCThomas Curran53:23

       Yeah

    3. AAAli Abdaal53:23

       ... what are some other things that we can do to get over perfectionism or at least reduce the impact that it might have on us?

    4. TCThomas Curran53:29

       Okay. So I think there's really... First of all, first and foremost, before we do anything else, I think it's really important to appreciate where perfectionism's coming from. And I want r- readers to, to pick up my book and come away with a sense that this isn't your fault. Like, there are a broader context to these feelings that actually your society and economy is designed, structured, organized to instill a sense of deficiency, because if you didn't feel deficient, if you felt content, you wouldn't consume, you wouldn't work, and our economy would s- quite quickly and abruptly spiral into a recession at that point, which is the worst kind of depres- uh, recession, a demand-driven, uh, a demand deficit-driven recession, which would create all sorts of, uh, havoc. So this feeling of being not enough is really fundamental- to the way in which your society is structured. I really want people to bear this in mind, because I think this takes a lot of power away from that deficit thinking to understand that, okay, this is the system working. This is a system working exceptionally well. Perfectionism is really-- why is perfectionism? It's evidence that the system works, that we have created, um, uh, uh, a s- a, a situation and a culture in which people feel compelled to consume and work as hard as they possibly can, uh, in order to prove themselves of worth in this society. And if we can understand that, if we can wrap our head around that, then that is the f- most important starting point. This is not your fault. These feelings have a broader context, and it's okay. Now, from there, what can we do? Well, I talk about in my book the fundamental role of self-acceptance, because I think self-acceptance is really like taking a sledgehammer to perfectionism. And underneath that broad philosophy are some actionable things we can do, and the first is self-compassion.

    5. AAAli Abdaal55:28

       Hmm.

    6. TCThomas Curran55:29

       Now, we have to at all times treat ourselves with kindness. If you screw up a presentation, kindness. If you didn't get the grade you wanted in your assessment, kindness. Okay? If you went to work and your annual review came back and it wasn't quite as good as you were expecting, don't go out of that room with your boss and berate yourself, "How could I be so stupid? What was I thinking? Why didn't I put in more effort? Why didn't I work on weekends or evenings or whatever to, to make sure that this didn't happen?" Kindness. It's okay. I did my best. I worked hard. Nobody's perfect. I made mistakes. We're human, and to be human is to be imperfect. If we can learn to treat ourselves with kindness at every, every time something goes wrong, w- we will instantly start to break down those self-critical features of perfectionism that make it such a difficult personality trait to carry around. Now, that's not easy, and it takes time and practice. You're not gonna do it straight away. I still come out of my lectures if I've done a bad job or I think I've done a bad job and ask myself, "What was I thinking?"

    7. AAAli Abdaal56:35

       Hmm.

    8. TCThomas Curran56:36

       But instantly I'm turning that around of saying, "Okay, you know, it's one bad lecture out of many, many that I give. It's not gonna impact my future career. [chuckles] It's not as catastrophic as you instantly think it is. It's just one bad day at the office."

    9. AAAli Abdaal56:49

       Hmm.

    10. TCThomas Curran56:49

        Right? The second thing is to challenge our perfectionism in, in, in important ways. So being self-critical after setbacks is crucial, but also putting ourselves in situations where we encounter setbacks is also crucial. Remember I talked about perfectionists can recoil from those situations? It's really, really important to try to push yourselves into them instead. So if you don't feel like one of your talents is speaking, for instance, push yourself at work to do a talk. Go through the anxiety that that engenders. Just sit with it. Let it wash over you for a little bit, and then go out there and do it. And you will almost always find at the end of that talk that the impact or the feedback or the consequence of it was not as catastrophic as you thought it was gonna be. Look, look, it might not be a, you know, a polished, erudite speech that maybe you see on a TED Talk. It might not be that, but at the same time, it also is likely to have been an experience where you've learned something, where you stood in front of people and conquered that fear and m- tried to push through and break through your perfectionism. Those are really important things to take away, because those things that you can learn that help you develop, that help you become more confident and as-- and importantly, help you break through your perfectionism, is by taking those small steps out of your comfort zone. So challenging your perfectionism is, is really important. Try to do that as much as you can. And thirdly, and this is really important, always remember that whatever you do, failure is not humiliating. It's humanizing. It's normal and natural to fail. In fact, we will fail way more than we will succeed. You have one success, it's followed by infinite amounts of failure, because failure is just regression to the mean. It's, it's a, it's an in- it's, it's an indication that we're moving in a direction, that we're learning, that we're developing. And r- it's really important to remember that failure's part and parcel of that process. It's not humiliating. It's not something shameful that needs to be, um, rehabilitated at all times. It is just what it is. It's a part and parcel of human growth, human development. Um, and I think that's so, so important. We need to change our relationship with failure and remember that it's a very humanizing part of the human condition. So those are, I think, um, the main three things that I think I would like readers to take away from the book.

    11. AAAli Abdaal59:14

        Right. We're gonna take a very quick break from the podcast to introduce our sponsor, which is Brilliant.org. Brilliant has been a supporter of my channel for the last several years. I've been using their product for the last several years, and it's the best app I've ever found for online courses in maths and science and computer science. The courses are really fun and interactive and engaging, and you learn stuff, and then you apply it with a practical puzzle, and you learn a bit more, and then you apply it a bit more. So it's generally a way more engaging and interesting way of learning stuff compared to how we might have been taught in school, for example. My favorite courses on Brilliant are the computer science courses. So back when I was applying to med school, I was actually torn between medicine and computer science, and I went for medicine in the end, which I don't regret. But there was always a part of me that really wanted to understand how computer science works. And so when I started taking the computer science courses on Brilliant, it really helped me understand, like at a deep level, what the deal is with the basics of, of computer science. Like, they've got a fantastic course, Introduction to Algorithms. They've got a whole course on cryptocurrencies, which is all about how cryptocurrencies actually work and how the kind of SHA-256 encryption works. And it teaches the topic of cryptography and security in a really fun and engaging way, which is way better than any other explanation I found on the internet. Anyway, if any of that's sounded up your street and you would like to level up your knowledge and your thinking in terms of maths or science or computer science, then do head over to Brilliant.org/DeepDive, and the first 200 people to use that link, which is also in the video description and in the show notes, will get 20% off the annual premium subscription. So thank you so much, Brilliant, for sponsoring this episode, and let's get right back to the podcast. To the point about self-compassion, uh- A book that I have recently reread, um, in the last week is called Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends On It by a guy called Kamal Ravikant. And I read it a few years ago, and I was like, "Eh. Eh, it's a bit woo. It's a bit, like, you know, hand-wavey." And then I read it again last week, and I was like, "Oh, okay. Like, this is actually, actually really solid." And one of the exercises-- You know, this guy talks about, you know, he was this successful, like, investor, startup guy, and had a lot of struggles with mental health and perfectionism and depression and things. And one very actionable strategy that he found really helpful is just, you know, throughout the day reminding himself to take a, to take a few breaths and when breathing in, just literally telling himself, "I love myself." And I've been trying this for the last few days, where I'm just like, you know, as I'm walking, walking down, walking towards the car while listening to an audiobook at 3X speed on my AirPods, just, like, looking up, [inhales] taking a breath, and just sort of saying to myself internally, "I love myself," and then breathing out. And the way he's, he describes it is, like, imagine taking a deep breath and imagine, like, light from above coming into your system, and then as you breathe out, that light is going into the areas of your body where it, it n- it most needs to go. And I was like, "Nah, come on. Come on, this is, this is bollocks." And then I tried it, and I was like, "Oh, I, I actually do just feel better." And there's something about that, um, that's profoundly, you know, like, you know, just, just that active act of self-compassion, 'cause the way, you know, as f- as, as you would know, if we-- The, the way that we operate in life is mostly sort of system one, mostly, uh, instinct based on-

    12. TCThomas Curran1:02:14

        Yeah

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:02:15

        ... ha- having a thought repeatedly, and then that thought gets, uh, solidified, and the grooves form in our mind, and so it becomes way easier to have that thought. And so if the thought going through our mind is, "I'm not worthy. I'm not good enough. I'm a failure," and we repeat those often enough, those become the default paths through the, through the forest of our mind. Whereas if we can just tell ourselves a couple of times a day, "I love myself," and that thought then becomes a default, that just changes the way that we approach almost every situation in life. So I've been finding that really powerful over the last few days.

    14. TCThomas Curran1:02:44

        I think it's so powerful. It's, it just-- As I said, it's like taking a sledgehammer to perfectionism. You kn- you know, you perfect- y- perfectionists will always find ways that they didn't succeed, or they didn't do something perfectly, or they, or there was always some chink in the armory that they will find, even if you've done something exceptionally well. In fact, you know, even objectively high levels of achievement to perfectionists aren't enough because success is a bottomless pit. It depletes us in its pursuit, and just like the horizon, it keeps slipping away the further we get to it. This is how perfectionism operates within the mindset of people. And so of course, you know, when things don't go well, we're gonna turn on ourselves because we weren't perfect in that moment. And exactly what you've just said, if we can turn that or reframe those thoughts from instantly turning on ourselves to instantly telling ourselves it's okay, that you are enough, that actually, you know, there's a sense of love and appreciation for ourselves in this moment, how we are right now, uh, it's-- that's so powerful.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:03:49

        One of the places I'm trying to get to, and I'm, I'm not here yet, uh, but it seems like a lot of more spiritually en-enlightened people are here, is instead-- Uh, so, like, o-o-one level is, like, you fail at something and you're like, "Oh, I'm a failure. I'm a terrible person." The next level is you fail at something and you're like, "That's fine. You know, it was just a bad day at the office." But then it feels like the next level up is almost not even registering it as, as a failure.

    16. TCThomas Curran1:04:12

        Mm.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:04:13

        'Cause a failure or even a success-

    18. TCThomas Curran1:04:14

        Mm-hmm

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:04:14

        ... is a value judgment.

    20. TCThomas Curran1:04:15

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:04:15

        It's a story that we tell ourselves about the flow of life.

    22. TCThomas Curran1:04:18

        Mm-hmm.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:04:19

        And if we can just surrender to the flow of life-

    24. TCThomas Curran1:04:21

        Mm

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:04:21

        ... and allow things to be as they are and not give it the value defin- the value judgment of this was good or this was bad.

    26. TCThomas Curran1:04:27

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:04:28

        Oh, that would be such a, a freeing way to live, right? [laughs]

    28. TCThomas Curran1:04:31

        [laughs]

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:04:31

        I'm not there yet, but it's like, you know, a path to work towards.

    30. TCThomas Curran1:04:34

        It, it would, but the way society is at the moment, uh, but, uh, you'll quickly be let know [laughs] if it-
14. 1:11:06 – 1:17:23

    What’s your take on social media?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:11:06

       what are your thoughts on social media?

    2. TCThomas Curran1:11:08

       Social media. I actually really think that social media has such power to be a incredibly useful tool, uh, in a, in a disconnected world. Uh, it can bring people together around shared interests. It can facilitate offline relations. That is to say, it can help with meeting up, uh, groups. It can help, uh, bring diverse people together. It can help really solidify community. All of these things were, by the way, what it was originally set up to do as a social network in the truest sense of the word. So when Facebook first came out, it was a university thing, so it was to, you know, kind of grease the wheels of university and campus life, and incredulous college students like me used to use it to kind of s- organize football, uh, socials or, you know, set up, uh, uh, drinking circles or go, you know, you know, uh, bring together different types of communities within the university around shared interests, and this is what it was used for. You know, it really helped university community and bring people together on campus. But unfortunately, it isn't that anymore, and what it is is an advertising device. Uh, it's really, that's where the, you know, profits are made and, and, and so the imperative of the social media algorithms now are not to facilitate offline relationships, but to keep people online, to keep them at, you know, engaged with the app, scrolling through, flicking through pictures. Again, w- um, instilling a sense that, you know, that you could be more- There's these images of other people's lives and lifestyles that appear very perfect, and you could have this if only, if only. Oh, and here's a targeted ad right when you're, you're, you kind of, you most need. Ah, and this is what I need to buy in order to have this life and lifestyle.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:12:56

       Mm.

    4. TCThomas Curran1:12:56

       So social media's become kind of an advertising device that follows the traditional route of analog advertising, but kind of puts it on steroids, uh, amplifies unrealistic ideals so that targeted ads can, can provide material solutions. And it h- and it's not a social network anymore, it's an advertising device, and I think that's where the damage can come. So social media per se is not a negative thing. Um, it can-- it's got tremendous power to be incredibly enlivening. But a- at the moment, it ha-- uh, in my opinion, this is, this is just my read of social media, but in my opinion, it, it's, it... gearing itself towards creating those kind of aspects of discontent that are very catnip for perfectionism, catnip for advertisers-

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:13:42

       Mm

    6. TCThomas Curran1:13:42

       ... keep us consuming, keep us working harder to attain this kind of life and lifestyles projected at us 24/7 in social media. So my opinion on social media is quite nuanced. I think it's got a lot of potential, it's got a lot of power, but at the moment, it's-- the algorithms are designed in a way that can create more discontent than purpose.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:14:00

       Hmm. So what are the strategies maybe around social media for people who struggle with perfectionism?

    8. TCThomas Curran1:14:06

       I think it's really about learning what p- what social media is first and foremost, understanding that it is an advertising device. You know, the, you know, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, they're not, uh, they don't disguise this. Uh, they talk about how ad revenues are really the revenue streams for their platforms. They're very open about it. Um, and it's just about understanding that. You know, if we can approach social media understanding that the way it makes money is through advertising, and the way advertising works is that we are, you know, kind of lured into a sense that we need a product.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:14:35

       Hmm.

    10. TCThomas Curran1:14:36

        And so social media works on this deficit model. We can understand that as a first step, and then the second step is just go back to what it was originally for. So engage with Instagram, but on interests that are, you know, are important to you.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:14:48

        Yeah.

    12. TCThomas Curran1:14:48

        Like sh- build a community around things that, you know, whether it be pets or cooking or cycling or whatever it might be, use Instagram to really facilitate those offline relationships to meet people and spend time in the world outside of social media with other people. Uh, I think going back to social media as its original purpose is really, really important. And for young people, I think education is so crucial. I think if you're a parent, it's really important to educate young people in what social media is about and how it can be used positively, um, in terms of build, you know, uh, facilitating offline relations. Um, so, so for me, it's just, it's really about engaging in it-- with it in the right way.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:15:29

        Hmm.

    14. TCThomas Curran1:15:29

        It's not about getting rid of it altogether.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:15:31

        Hmm. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. I think one thing that I like to do is, um, you know, I get a lot of value from Twitter, weirdly, and people always are surprised by that. And, you know, whenever I say to people, "Oh, yeah, you know, Twitter is a great source of information and insight and everything," they're like, "But wait, what? I thought Twitter was just for the news and for, like, dunking on Andrew Tate or whatever."

    16. TCThomas Curran1:15:50

        Yeah. [chuckles]

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:15:51

        Um, but I think a lot of it is about curating the people that you follow and curating your feed so that it does give you great book recommendations and stuff rather than kind of vitriol or hate or, like, lifestyle aspirationally type things.

    18. TCThomas Curran1:16:05

        Yeah.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:16:06

        And so I like to keep my feeds broadly educational adjacent, um, with the occasional, like, you know, male fitness model to inspire me to actually go to the gym.

    20. TCThomas Curran1:16:17

        [laughs]

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:16:17

        Uh, [laughs] I find that, like, that level of, um, kind of nudge toward from social media, it's like, oh, well, you know, if I see a, a, a photo of a gym shark athlete on the thing, I'll be like, "You know what? I'm gonna go gym today." And I think that's broadly a healthy thing, even though probably the reason behind it might be like, "My body's not good enough."

    22. TCThomas Curran1:16:34

        Yeah.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:16:34

        And like, you know, there are, there are, there, there are worse outcomes other than I'm gonna go gym today.

    24. TCThomas Curran1:16:38

        [laughs] I mean, look, you know, people use, um, social media in their own ways and I, I think, uh, I'm, I'm also a user of Twitter. I think, you know, the w- the world we live in right now is, is one where there's a lot of, uh, impetus to kind of, like you say, dunk on people to kind of, um, to... f- for views, for shares, for likes, for mentions. You know, kind of extreme views are amplified and, uh, views are polarized within those, uh, settings. But like you said, if you can use it in a way that's broadly positive, you can follow the right people, you make sure that your feed is, um, managed so that you don't see too much of this kind of scrap, screeching and noise, then it's obviously a very positive thing. You keep up with the

15. 1:17:23 – 1:22:24

    Why don’t you believe in the growth mindset?

    1. TCThomas Curran1:17:23

       news. You can, you know, you can, you can gain insight from influencers who you think, uh, have some really valuable stuff to share. It's a positive experience. But again, it's about managing that is, is the important part, um, and understanding that, you know, there's good things and bad things about the pr- about the platforms.

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:17:41

       Yeah. Um, okay. Something potentially controversial that you say in the book is that you don't believe in the growth mindset.

    3. TCThomas Curran1:17:48

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:17:48

       What, what do you mean you don't believe in the growth mindset? [laughs]

    5. TCThomas Curran1:17:51

       Okay, so I really love this 'cause y- you're the first person to really challenge me on this, and I'm, I really want to have this discussion 'cause I think it's so important and, and, and, uh, healthy debate on these issues is really crucial. I guess it is a provocative part of the book, and maybe there's a bit, uh, uh, deliberate pr- provocation here, but I do think we need to have a conversation. And the reason why I think we have to have a conversation is this: One of the things that, that troubles me a little bit about the growth mindset, and by the way, I'm not against growth. I think growth is absolutely fundamental to human development. But what I am against is the sense that we have to grow at all times. So you often hear, uh, quotes like, "You can't let your failures define you. You have to let your failures teach you," or, "Fail better," as you often hear sometimes in corporate speak. These, these mantras, uh, sound noble, but- When you actually dig into them, you find something that's quite unhuman. And I'm focusing on this first part of that quote, uh, this idea that you can't let your failures define you. Because what that tells us at some level is that there's something deeply shameful about dwelling in a state of failure. That, that somehow that sense of failure has to be immediately rehabilitated on the redemptive arc of growth or excellence or development, and that it can't be left alone to just sit for a moment, not touched, not rehabilitated, not changed, not suppressed, but just allowed to be, exist as it is, as a h- kind of humanizing, as I mentioned earlier, humanizing part of our existence. That that failure or setback or roadblock or thing that didn't turn out the way we expected it to turn out is just part and parcel of what it means to be a human. And so the reason why I wanted to push back a little bit on the growth mindset is that as a mindset, i.e. a mind that is set on one thing, that is growth, can be problematic when you string it out over time and only allow yourself to grow and not let in areas of life where you might stand still or you might regress and accept them as just kind of natural, normal parts of our existence. So that is why I'm pushing back a little bit on the growth mindset, because I think growth is fine, but sometimes we won't always grow, and that's also fine.

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:20:27

       Okay. That's very reasonable. I [chuckles] you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, uh, disagree with any of that. Um, so it sounds like you're... [sighs] Okay, so growth mindset as distinct from fixed mindset would be kind of how Carol Dweck would, would describe it. Growth mindset being like our abilities are not fixed and can grow. Fixed mindset, our abilities are fixed and therefore any failure is a, uh, reduction of myself because like, oh, it shows that I'm stupid, it shows that I have no self-worth.

    7. TCThomas Curran1:20:55

       Hmm.

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:20:55

       So in that sense, going kind of perfectionism falls into the, quote, "fixed mindset" thing. But I guess what, what you're saying is growth mindset, if taken too far, then could-- can also be problematic.

    9. TCThomas Curran1:21:06

       Exactly.

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:21:06

        Like any virtue taken to excess becomes a vice.

    11. TCThomas Curran1:21:08

        Exactly.

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:21:09

        And there's always a balance here between self-improvement and self-acceptance.

    13. TCThomas Curran1:21:13

        Exactly.

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:21:13

        And not everything needs to be converted into a kind of, "Here are eight lessons I learned, uh, on a Twitter thread," um, for [chuckles] from any kind of setback. Sometimes we can just be like accepting of a, quote, "failure," and we can choose to reframe it as growth if we want.

    15. TCThomas Curran1:21:28

        Yep.

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:21:28

        Or we can choose to be like, "Yep, that was a bad day at the office." Or if we're really enlightened, we can choose to not-- to accept it as part of the, you know, surrendering to the flow of life.

    17. TCThomas Curran1:21:36

        Yeah.

    18. AAAli Abdaal1:21:37

        Um, but we shouldn't-- It sounds like what you're saying is that we shouldn't feel as if we have to convert every single, quote, "failure" into some sort of lesson or some sort of growth opportunity.

    19. TCThomas Curran1:21:46

        Yeah. Karen H- uh, uh, Horney, who's a, uh, was a psychotherapist who was probably one of the first to really delve into perfectionism in any great detail in the '30s, '40s, and '50s, uh, talked about something called the tyranny of should.

    20. AAAli Abdaal1:22:00

        Oof. Nice.

    21. TCThomas Curran1:22:00

        And that, and that in this society, we feel like we should be X, Y, and Z. Should be fitter, stronger, happier, healthier, more productive. And these, and these tyrannical shoulds are what create divides within us from the imperfect person we really are, you know, the person that's flawed, that makes mistakes, that, um, will sometimes slip up, to the perfect person that society tells us we should be.

16. 1:22:24 – 1:27:28

    The tyranny of should

    1. TCThomas Curran1:22:24

       You know, strong, fit, healthy, attractive, intelligent, whatever it might be, productive, whatever it might be. And my worry with the growth mindset is, is that what we're doing is we're just kind of adding another should to a long list of other shoulds, that we should be continually growing, developing, improving. And none of those things are problems. But I think Carl Rogers put it really well when he said, "I am at my greatest, happiest when I strive towards goals to which I am dimly aware."

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:22:55

       [chuckles]

    3. TCThomas Curran1:22:57

       And I think that's a really interesting way to look at life, because yes, we will have goals. Yes, we will have this kind of ethereal vision in our minds about where we want to go. So we might wanna be, you know, an, uh, you know, a, uh, a VP in our company. We might want to be a professor. We might want to be a YouTube influencer that has, um, massive impact on vast waves of people. You know, we have this kind of idea and image where we want to go. And yes, you know, on the road there, it's important to have that kind of, that kind of endpoint, but at the same time, to know that not always you're going to be... Not always is it gonna be a case where you're gonna grow all the time. Like, you're gonna hit su- you're gonna hit roadblocks, you're gonna go sideways. You're gonna even regress sometimes because you, what you thought you knew, you didn't actually know. And all of these things are just as important as growth. You know? S- feeling like you're regressing isn't shameful. It isn't something to kind of quash or avoid or s- not talk about or not think about. It's actually just part and parcel of this kind of road to these goals that, you know, in the m- in your mind's eye, you have a sense that this is where you want to go. But it, but, you know, tying yourself and being fixed and having only kind of a sense that you, you, you can only grow on that journey, I think is, for me anyway, what's psychologically challenging and can turn itself into perfectionism if left unchecked. So, so this is what I'm-- I guess this is the point I'm trying to get across, is this idea that, you know, growth, growth, growth is fine, but too much can be perfectionism.

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:24:31

       I love that, yeah. The tyranny of should. I've been, I've, I've, I've been thinking a lot a- about this a lot over the last few months. Like, whenever I find myself, uh, sort of giving myself a should, I always kind of like, "Hmm, interesting." Like when, when I tell myself, "Oh, I should go to the gym," I sort of have- ... grown now to recognize the should and really think, "Hmm, what's, what's going on here?" And on one level, I should go to the gym because it is good to be healthy and I value health as, uh, you know, all that crap. But on another level, it's a should, and too many shoulds, uh, lead to a should-y life, as some people might say.

    5. TCThomas Curran1:25:08

       Yeah. [laughs]

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:25:09

       So do you-

    7. TCThomas Curran1:25:09

       That's really good.

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:25:10

       Thank you. Uh, it's, it's, it's not an original, I wish.

    9. TCThomas Curran1:25:12

       Okay. [laughs]

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:25:14

        Um, do you... I, I, I have been u- unable to figure out, like, I, you know, I like things to fit into neat buckets. And, like, I would love to be able to say telling yourself should is always a bad thing. Uh, but clearly it's not. Clearly there's, like, a middle way. Um, have you, have you got any thoughts on where is the middle ground between, uh, should versus, like, not should? [laughs] If that makes sense.

    11. TCThomas Curran1:25:36

        I'd add another tyranny in today's culture-

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:25:37

        Oh, yeah

    13. TCThomas Curran1:25:37

        ... the tyranny of could. Um, because I think there's a tyranny of should, how we should look, but then there's always a tyranny of where we could be and what we could have and who we... And, you know, uh, particularly in a meritocratic culture like ours, we're told all the time that you could be this highflyer.

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:25:52

        Or a supposedly meritoc- uh, uh, meritocratic culture.

    15. TCThomas Curran1:25:55

        Or a supposedly meritocratic culture.

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:25:56

        Yeah. [laughs]

    17. TCThomas Curran1:25:57

        Yeah. Uh, one that valorizes meritocracy-

    18. AAAli Abdaal1:25:59

        Yeah, right

    19. TCThomas Curran1:25:59

        ... but doesn't necessarily follow it through.

    20. AAAli Abdaal1:26:00

        Yeah.

    21. TCThomas Curran1:26:01

        Um, but of course, like s- but, you know, you're told y- you could be this if you just try hard enough.

    22. AAAli Abdaal1:26:06

        Mm.

    23. TCThomas Curran1:26:06

        So not only are we-- do we have these should c- shoulds coming at us from the bottom-

    24. AAAli Abdaal1:26:10

        Yeah

    25. TCThomas Curran1:26:10

        ... to say, "This is how you should be," we also have these coulds from the top going, "And you can also be this person." We're kind of pincered, um, in the middle. Uh, I think, you know, I don't think there's any coincidence that Karen Horney came to the conclusion at the end of her writing that kind of Zen Buddhism was the way forward. [laughs]

    26. AAAli Abdaal1:26:28

        Like all roads lead to Zen Buddhism. [laughs]

    27. TCThomas Curran1:26:29

        Exactly. She kind of ended there, and this is kind of a big in- influence on my thinking too, because this kind of idea of letting go, living in the moment, being present, and trying not to be overly impacted by the ways in which you're told you should behave and should look and all the rest of it and could be is the, is by far and away the most fail-safe path to a contented life.

    28. AAAli Abdaal1:26:53

        Yep.

    29. TCThomas Curran1:26:54

        Uh, but you know, it's not easy. There are practical things we can do. I t- I've talked about some of them, but it's not easy. I just think, uh, you know, even just being aware that these things are im- pressing on us is the first step.

    30. AAAli Abdaal1:27:08

        Yeah.
17. 1:27:28 – 1:32:01

    Your take on goals

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:27:28

       stuff? Um, specific goals show, uh, specific and challenging goals correlate with increased performance.

    2. TCThomas Curran1:27:33

       That's right, yeah.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:27:34

       And that's kind of annoying because I've always been anti specific and challenging goals in that I prefer my goals to be a bit more vague, pencil sketchy, and I prefer them not n- to, to not ideally be that challenging, and I prefer them to be within my control.

    4. TCThomas Curran1:27:46

       Yeah.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:27:46

       Like, oh, I vaguely wanna make one YouTube video a week for the next two years, and let's see what happens. And that was how I bec- stayed consistent on YouTube for two years. Whereas everyone I know who's like, "I'm going to make X videos which will hope..." Where, where, where the specific measurable challenging goal is 10,000 subscribers, those people realize that failure after failure after failure, you can't control that outcome, so, like, you end up just burning out and giving up.

    6. TCThomas Curran1:28:08

       Yeah.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:28:08

       Whereas if it's a pencil sketch goal that's not that challenging, that's fully within your control, that's a, that's a recipe for, yeah, c- contentment at least. [laughs]

    8. TCThomas Curran1:28:16

       Well, do you know what? You'll be pleased to learn that actually new research is coming forward right now, uh, to kind of challenge that idea of the specific goal framework. Um, and in particular champion, like you just said, more nebulous goals.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:28:32

       Really?

    10. TCThomas Curran1:28:32

        Goals... Yeah. Uh-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:28:33

        Incredible. Well, I can put some-

    12. TCThomas Curran1:28:35

        [laughs]

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:28:35

        ... of those into the book. Uh, do you... [laughs] Can you tell me more?

    14. TCThomas Curran1:28:37

        Um, so, so a researcher called Christian Swan, um, has done some work on goal setting. I can send you some papers, actually.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:28:45

        Nice.

    16. TCThomas Curran1:28:45

        It'd probably m- be faster for you that way. Um, and they're just showing that, you know, it's not always about setting specific hard line goals that creates the m- maximum impact. That actually-- And this is in a sports setting, 'cause my background is sports psychology. This is why I know this research. Um, but that actually, you know, if you set yourself less clear but nevertheless, you know, um, pointed goals. So you know, like you say, these goals where you have an idea of you can-- I want to, um, you know, win a race.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:29:16

        Yeah.

    18. TCThomas Curran1:29:16

        It doesn't have to be, like, this specific race on this specific day. But, like, over the course of a year, I w- I want to win X amount of races. It doesn't matter where or when or why. It just matters that, you know, you have this kind of, this goal that kind of is pushing you in this direction. But nevertheless, it's not a kind of imperative that I must do this on this time.

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:29:36

        Yeah.

    20. TCThomas Curran1:29:36

        Uh, and there's some really interesting, uh, data that's coming through to suggest actually, you know, those types of goals are a lot more, uh, psychologically freeing and actually contribute to higher performance, interestingly enough, than the more specific goals. So I'll send you that research-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:29:50

        Sick

    22. TCThomas Curran1:29:50

        ... for you, one. Uh, I can't speak in too much detail about it 'cause it's not my area, but I think you might find it interesting.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:29:56

        Yeah. Oh, that sounds great. Yeah. I think, I think of, like, the, the name actually rings a bell. I think I've come across some of this stuff in my Zotero library when I've been l- looking into this. The one, one phrase that, like, I really... And I h- I, I haven't heard anyone else phrase it, phrase it this way, but I'm sure someone will have done way before me, is that goals are a destina- oh, sorry. Goals are a direction, they're not a destination.

    24. TCThomas Curran1:30:16

        That's right.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:30:17

        And setting a goal of, like, pencil sketching a rough direction means, "Okay, cool. I'm gonna set out on this journey and try my best to enjoy every step of the, every step of the process." Because, you know, as Miley Cyrus would even say, it's, it's the climb. It's not about, it's not about how fast I get there. Ain't about what's waiting on the other side. It's the climb.

    26. TCThomas Curran1:30:34

        I think it's really important-

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:30:34

        Yeah

    28. TCThomas Curran1:30:34

        ... also to remember that it depends who's doing these things. So for some people, like, rigid goals are not, not a bad thing. Like, if you're conscientious- And you make a list of things that you want to achieve. Well, that is actually quite useful because it gives you a kind of roadmap that you can apply your energies towards.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:30:50

        Yep.

    30. TCThomas Curran1:30:50

        But if you're perfectionistic, you're not setting those strict and rigid goals because they're kind of a roadmap. You're setting them because they're managing your anxiety. They're like, "I need to set these goals because if I don't set them and I don't meet them, then my anxiety's gonna go through the roof." So this is kind of a way of managing anxiety that we're setting these goals. So I think, again, it goes back to where it comes from and the reason why we're setting these things in the first place. And if you're especially perfectionistic, having s- rigid, firm, and what are often lofty goals is gonna be really problematic because you may not meet them, and you may not meet them for, you know, no good reason. [laughs]
18. 1:32:01 – 1:35:08

    Helpful ways to break through procrastination

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:32:01

       keep the bar as low as is humanly possible. If you're struggling with consistency, keep the bar really, really low.

    2. TCThomas Curran1:32:05

       Yeah.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:32:06

       And by a low bar I mean a vaguely defined, uh, not particularly lofty, not particularly ambitious goal. But then as you clear that bar, you raise the bar slightly, and then you raise it slightly, and you raise it slightly.

    4. TCThomas Curran1:32:16

       Exactly right.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:32:16

       So for an Olympic gymnast, the bar of, "Oh, I'm just gonna show up to practice whenever I feel like it," is probably not that helpful. They wanna win, which is fair enough.

    6. TCThomas Curran1:32:24

       Yeah.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:32:24

       But for someone who struggles to go to the gym, you know, setting a, a lofty goal of becoming Mr. Olympia is probably actually going to cause you to procrastinate rather than help you avoid that. And so kind of adjusting, adjusting the height of the bar, lowering, lowering it to make it vague and, like, not that lofty really helps.

    8. TCThomas Curran1:32:42

       E- exactly right. And you te- I tell this to my students all the time, 'cause lots of them, like, really struggle to start essays, right? 'Cause this is like a... They see, "Oh, it's a 3,000-word essay. This is really, like... Oh my God, I'm not gonna do very well in this test. It's a really hard topic. I don't know anything about it. Ah."

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:32:54

       Yeah.

    10. TCThomas Curran1:32:54

        "So let's go on Netflix." Um, I just say just get wr- just, just write something. Write a letter to your mum. Like, just wr- get words on a, on a p- on a, on a computer screen and start the process. It doesn't even have to be related to the task at hand. Because if you can start writing, it's a nice note to your mum, but also it gets you in that kind of frame of mind where you're putting words on paper and then begin. And then, you know, like you say, it doesn't have to be, uh, you don't even have to consult the literature. Just put down your thoughts on this particular topic, right? And then begin to iterate. Work those thoughts into some kind of structure. Then bring in the literature and build it, like, build it, uh, fr- you know, piece by piece. Um, because that is a way better way of smashing through the procrastination than going, "Everything has to be perfect right now on the first draft, and if it isn't, I can't possibly do it."

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:33:46

        Yeah.

    12. TCThomas Curran1:33:46

        So what you're saying there is a really, really helpful way for people to break through that procrastination. 'Cause I know procrastination is something that a lot of people struggle with.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:33:53

        Yeah. Yeah. Um, there's a, a, a quote from, uh, Cal Newport that I, that I love for this, which is, you know, he says that when he's writ- when, when he's working on his books, he tells, he, he, he tells himself every time, "This one just needs to be reasonable. The next one is gonna be good."

    14. TCThomas Curran1:34:09

        Yeah.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:34:10

        And so I'm trying to take that attitude towards everything in my life, whether it's book writing or, like, a gym workout or a YouTube video. This one just needs to be reasonable. The next one's gonna be good. [laughs]

    16. TCThomas Curran1:34:18

        Exactly.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:34:18

        And then I get to that one, it's like, this one just needs to be reasonable. And I think reasonable or good enough is, I think, the, the solution to a lot of the perfectionism procrastination stuff that we deal with.

    18. TCThomas Curran1:34:27

        And would you say, like, that's how you've built up this channel, right? Like, do you feel like it started, you- there was a lot of mistakes made at the beginning and you can look back at it now and see the development? Is that, is that how you've approached building up this channel?

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:34:38

        Oh, absolutely. I wouldn't even consider them mistakes. I would just be like, "Yeah, it was good enough."

    20. TCThomas Curran1:34:41

        Yeah.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:34:41

        As long as... And, and my bar for a video is as long, or a podcast episode, is as long as this helps at least one person or has the potential to help at least one person-

    22. TCThomas Curran1:34:49

        Yeah

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:34:49

        ... it's worth putting out there.

    24. TCThomas Curran1:34:50

        Absolutely.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:34:50

        That's a very low bar, and it-

    26. TCThomas Curran1:34:51

        Yeah

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:34:51

        ... that's still the bar. So, [laughs] you know, it's, it's, it's nice to be able to have continued this for six years now.

    28. TCThomas Curran1:34:56

        Great. Well, I mean, it's really nice to see this. You've done really well. I mean, some of the numbers you get are incredible, so-

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:35:02

        And-

    30. TCThomas Curran1:35:02

        And it's growing, right?
19. 1:35:08 – 1:36:09

    Parting thoughts

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:35:08

       Well, Thomas, thank you so much for coming on.

    2. TCThomas Curran1:35:09

       Yeah.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:35:09

       This has been absolutely wonderful. Any final pieces of parting wisdom for those who might have gotten to the end of this episode who are still struggling with perfectionism?

    4. TCThomas Curran1:35:16

       Uh, okay. Well, three words I suppose. You are enough. And that is all... That is what it is to be a human being. You are a human being. You exist, so you are enough, and I think that's the most important lesson to take through life, something to remember all the time when things go well or things don't go quite so well. It's okay. You're human. We fail. You are enough.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:35:37

       Beautiful. Thank you so much.

    6. TCThomas Curran1:35:38

       No worries.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:35:39

       All right, so that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast are gonna be linked down in the video description or in the show notes, depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform, then do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast. Or if you're watching this in full HD or 4K on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That would be awesome. And if you enjoyed this episode, you might like to check out this episode here as well, which links in with some of the stuff that we talked about in the episode. So thanks for watching. Uh, do hit the subscribe button if you aren't already, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.

Episode duration: 1:36:10