Socialists Sweep NYC, China Catches Up in Coding, AI Memory Crunch, Micron's Blowout Quarter

Jason Calacanis 0:00 All right, everybody, welcome back. Welcome back to the number one podcast in the world, the All-In podcast, episode 278. And, uh, Friedberg, he took a mental health day today after the socialist sweep in New York City, so we invited two guests. They both said yes. Travis Kalanick is here from Adams. How you doing, brother?

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:20 I'm good. I'm good. Good to see you.

Jason Calacanis 0:22 Good to see you. Good to see you. And after a triumphant week at Starbase, the one, the only, everybody's favorite, Gavin Baker of Atreaties Management. How are you doing, Gavin?

Gavin Baker 0:35 Great, man. Thanks for having me.

Jason Calacanis 0:37 You still floating on cloud nine after the SpaceX IPO? Yeah?

Gavin Baker 0:41 That was a very special moment, and it was the culmination of, you know-

Jason Calacanis 0:45 Decades

Gavin Baker 0:45 ... decades of hard work. But man, to quote, uh, Bill Belichick, onto Cincinnati.

Jason Calacanis 0:52 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:52 Yeah. Exactly right.

Jason Calacanis 0:54 Yeah. Zero zero is, uh, the, how the Knicks talked about the next game in every series. They're like, "It's zero-zero." We come into this as if it's, like, the first game of the series, even if we're up two games or three games.

Jason Calacanis 1:05 The socialists have swept New York in the congressional Democratic primaries. On Tuesday, New York City Mayor Mamdani went three for three in the candidates which he endorsed, and they all won their primaries. 10th District Leader Brad Lander defeated two-term incumbent Dan Goldman. 10th is one of New York's richest districts, includes the West Village, all those townhouses, uh, Wall Street, Dumbo, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens, Park Slope. That's some weird geography put together there. In New York's 13th, Chevalier beat a five-term incumbent who was backed by House Speaker Hakeem Jeffries, and apparently the socialists are coming for him. 13 is one of the poorest districts, Harlem and the West Bronx, the Boogie Down Bronx. She's a 32-year-old Democrat socialist with a history of spicy remarks. New York's 7th District, Claire Valdez, won the open seat over the handpicked successor, the incumbent. 7 is a DSA stronghold, Bushwick, Williamsburg, Long Island City, Green Point, known as the Commie Corridor. A lot of hipsters and baristas with suspenders in that neighborhood. According to our partners, Poly Market, this was a pretty big upset. The Mamdani sweep chances were just 26 before election day. Yeah, that would be, like, the, uh, trifecta there if you were gambling. These candidates, just like Mamdani, did a lot better with younger, college-educated, and high-income folks, the folks who can afford to be socialists. And these are all safe Democratic seats the DSA will very likely win. So the DSA caucus-

Chamath Palihapitiya 2:44 That's the best way you just said, "People who can afford to be socialists."

Jason Calacanis 2:46 [laughs] I mean-

Chamath Palihapitiya 2:48 It's always, it's always the, the rich poors. You know? They're rich, but they pretend to be poor. It's perfect.

Jason Calacanis 2:52 I mean, this is the history of our country from the '30s to the '50s, Red Scare, Black Panthers. I mean, we'll get into it, Chamath. But basically, if you're intelligent and you get into business, you become a capitalist. If you're super intelligent and you go into academia, eventually you have the luxury belief that socialism is awesome. What's your take here, Chamath? And then I'll go to you, Saxo Pill, because I know I can see you're chomping on something over there. You're just ready to go.

Chamath Palihapitiya 3:17 Honestly, I think that we are losing the script, and part of it is because we've been our own worst enemy. I'll just keep saying this, that I think AI is a very good prism into this problem. I think AI is the greatest economic leveler we'll ever find in our lifetime. I think it's the thing that can create the greatest amount of equality. I think that it can even the starting line for every single person on Earth. But we've done such a poor job in representing it, in bringing it to market, in talking about it. We've let all of our own personal trials and tribulations and insecurities and fights spill out into the open. As a result, Silicon Valley has lost even more credibility with the people at large. And in that vacuum, what other people can paint is a picture of how anything other than what capitalism looks like today is a better version of what they see. And this is why you're seeing, I think, a lot of these people get a lot of momentum. I think if you look at some of the key congressional races, they were a referendum on AI. And the good news is we were able to hold the line in some of these key places, but just barely. In Utah and in New York, there was a couple of very important races where it was essentially Anthropic-funded anti-AI groups, which is, again, insane, against, in some ways, OpenAI-funded pro-AI groups, and the pro-AI groups won.

Jason Calacanis 4:48 You just explained that it's a, a great leveler. Can you give a couple of examples and just expand on that briefly? How is it a great leveler? I mean, I know, but, uh, uh, for the audience's sake, you've said this a couple of weeks now, so I think unpack it a bit.

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:01 Um, the best way to explain it is I think that the first real major unlock of economic productivity was when the internet, and specifically Google, went and harvested and collected all the world's knowledge and all the world's information, and they made it available via search. What we figure out, though, 25 years later, despite the fact that they built a great business, is what was missing was then being able to take that knowledge and information and transform it into expertise and intelligence, and that's effectively what AI does. It takes that world's knowledge, and it allows you to act upon it so that every single man, woman, and child has an equivalent Travis Kalanick in, you know, as his co-founder, a super founder, this brilliant person that can think through all your problems, can out-engineer people, can outthink people, and they sit beside you, and you have that, and there is no gatekeeping that can prevent you from having that. And so now you're only as good as your ability to direct that energy into something productive that you value. That is an incredibly powerful thing, and instead we've gotten caught up in doomerism and jobs being lost and, you know, water being consumed, all of which are lies, all of which are complete fabrications and misinformation, and these have been created in order to specifically help one small set of actors inside the AI race, and it's been fed and funded by those folks. So in, in this vacuum, Jason, we've allowed all these other people to paint the other version, and right now the other version looks way more compelling than the current version because the current version has very poor brand ambassadors. Sacks, what's your take on this? I guess some people are looking at this as the left's version of the populist takeover that Trump did over the last 10-plus years. What's your take on what we're seeing here with socialism and its amazing appeal and its winning at the, uh, election box?

David Sacks 7:09 I think there is some truth to that. I mean, I think the choices of the future are gonna be communism, or if you wanna call it socialism of the Democrat Party, or nationalism in the Republican Party. I mean, that is where we're headed. Those are the two populist directions. But let's look at what these DSA candidates stand for. So let's look at what their platform is. They actually say they want to abolish the Senate. They want to abolish the carceral state. That means basically police forces and prisons. They want to abolish ICE and grant amnesty for all. They do not support any deportations whatsoever. They want to replace the president and Supreme Court with an executive and judiciary that is chosen by and subordinate to Congress, which basically now I guess just means this House. And with respect to House elections, they want to abolish the Electoral College. They want to replace the two-party system with a multi-party democracy, and they want to expand the House of Representatives, implement proportionate representation, and rank choice voting in all elections. So this would be a total makeover of our constitutional system. They want to free Palestine. They want public ownership of major corporations. They want to defund the Department of War.

Chamath Palihapitiya 8:24 [laughs]

David Sacks 8:25 This is a very radical organization, and you would laugh at a lot of these types of proposals, but you can't really laugh at it anymore because these guys are taking over the Democratic Party, and y- you can see the Democratic establishment is in complete panic right now because they have lost control of the party, uh, to Zohram Mamdani and his, his allies. So Jason, like you said, I mean, let's take this one race here, New York 13. You've got this ally of Hakeem Jeffries, longtime incumbent congressman, Espaillat, I guess is, is his name. He is the chair of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, and he was defeated by an unemployed 32-year-old PhD candidate. She's never had a job. She's been in college for 10 years, I guess writing this PhD thesis.

Chamath Palihapitiya 9:13 Wow.

David Sacks 9:13 And I think even by DSA standards, she might be kind of a lunatic, so she has declared that she wants to end Western civilization. She wants to eradicate Western civilization.

Chamath Palihapitiya 9:24 Wait a second. What? [laughs]

David Sacks 9:27 Um, she-

Chamath Palihapitiya 9:27 We're soaking in it. [laughs]

David Sacks 9:28 Yeah. She actually said she used the American flag as a napkin to clean her hands.

Chamath Palihapitiya 9:34 Oh.

David Sacks 9:35 She attended a rally one day after October 7 celebrating the slaughter of Israeli civilians. I mean, she's very, um, pro-Palestine, but even to the point of celebrating Israeli civilian deaths. She calls white women ugly colonizers. She's called for the complete defunding of the police and abolishing all prisons and borders. Doesn't want a single deportation. Hates the police, openly calls them pigs, or has on social media before, calls US service members war criminals, and says the US is a disgrace of a country. She's written favorably about communism and seizing the means of production, and on and on and on. So this is basically the new Democratic Party. It's gonna be, even if the Democrats do take the House in November and Hakeem Jeffries becomes speaker, this is gonna prove to be a huge headache for him managing all these new DSA members.

Chamath Palihapitiya 10:27 Hmm.

David Sacks 10:27 Because they do not actually see the traditional establishment wing of the Democratic Party as an ally. They see it as an obstacle. This is the DSA co-chair Josh Block said, "We're using the Democratic Party as a ballot access vehicle-

Chamath Palihapitiya 10:42 Oh, my God

David Sacks 10:43 ... not because we share its goals. We build our own-

Chamath Palihapitiya 10:45 Oh, my God

David Sacks 10:45 ... organization, get elected under the Democratic label, caucus with Democrats when it's useful, and push our own agenda from the inside. We see the Democratic establishment as an obstacle, not a home." So the DSA is coming for the Democratic Party. It controls the base now. It's where all the energy is. I think this takeover will continue. I think the DSA will gradually take over more and more of the Democratic Party, and all I can say to these establishment Democrats is play stupid games, win stupid prizes. You supported this open border policy that brought in this wave of mass migration. That is a huge part of the base of this new DSA wing. Mamdani would not have won the mayoral election in New York if it had just been native-born New Yorkers voting. It was the mass migrant vote in New York that swung it to Mamdani. It's not exclusively the DSA base. It's the migrants plus these overeducated white progressives who, I say overeducated because they're more downwardly mobile. They end up going to work in academia or NGOs, that kind of thing.

Chamath Palihapitiya 11:53 Yeah.

David Sacks 11:53 They're hard left wing. They're kind of the vanguard, and it's this combination of these, you know, recent college graduates who are kind of the organizers and this migrant movement who are really taking over the Democratic Party. But again, this all goes back to Democratic Party policies. They may not have intended for this to happen, they may not have intended for them to lose control, but it was their open border policy. It was also the fact that they have cracked the melting pot and the policy we had for many years in America of assimilating migrants, right? Immigrants.

Jason Calacanis 12:26 Yep.

David Sacks 12:26 That all got cracked by multiculturalism and wokeism. We don't really do that anymore. So now you've got these candidates like Chevalier openly declaring they're not just anti-American, they're post-American. They don't have any respect for the American system, our constitutional order, our free enterprise system. They want to introduce something in much different, and it's gonna look a lot like the countries where these migrants are coming from.

Jason Calacanis 12:52 Yeah.

David Sacks 12:52 So again, you know, if you import massive numbers of migrants, don't assimilate them into our system, and then you have these Marxist leaders, you're gonna end up with the American system coming to resemble the countries from which-

Jason Calacanis 13:05 It's really interesting-

David Sacks 13:06 ... this mass migration came

Jason Calacanis 13:06 ... uh, you mentioned, like, how she wants to get rid of all of these... You know, delete all of these, uh, units. It's very similar to Trump's, you know... Uh, he wanted to delete a separate set of things, like the IRS and USAID, Department of Education, EPA. They each use that playbook as well, like, "Hey, we're gonna delete some of this stuff." Travis, you, uh, famously had, uh, the fountain head.

David Sacks 13:29 Trump didn't want to delete the US Constitution.

Jason Calacanis 13:31 No, [laughs] definitely not. Travis, you're used to-

David Sacks 13:34 Slight difference

Jason Calacanis 13:34 ... slight difference, I agree. [laughs] He did want to delete Western culture. [laughs]

David Sacks 13:38 I don't think he wants to delete Western culture.

Jason Calacanis 13:40 No. Uh, so come out there.

David Sacks 13:41 He might wanna, he might wanna delete USAID because it was a festering... It was basically a front for all these NGOs.

Jason Calacanis 13:48 CIA, [laughs] NCIA. Yeah.

David Sacks 13:49 By the way, you may, you may have noticed that in South America we've had seven elections where the countries have swung to the right, and I think a big part of the reason why might be you don't have-

Jason Calacanis 14:00 Hmm

David Sacks 14:00 ... the USAID there conducting all these, uh, left-wing regime change operations.

Jason Calacanis 14:06 Paola's, Paola disappeared.

David Sacks 14:08 Yeah, totally.

Jason Calacanis 14:09 Paola disappeared, and the incentives disappeared with it. Who would've thought? Travis, you, uh, famously had the fountain head, Ayn Rand's, uh, novel-

Travis Kalanick 14:16 Yeah

Jason Calacanis 14:16 ... as your Twitter avatar [laughs] for a decade or two. Uh, [laughs] what... I'd love to ask you your take on s-

Travis Kalanick 14:21 No, it was, it was literally th- No, they'd been writing about it for a decade or two. This is, like, a six-month thing where I would read a book-

Jason Calacanis 14:26 Ah

Travis Kalanick 14:26 ... and then rotate it my avatar.

Jason Calacanis 14:29 Okay. Yeah.

Travis Kalanick 14:29 Yeah, I had Hamilton for a while. I had Ender's Game for a while, but yeah, it became a thing.

Jason Calacanis 14:34 Well, I mean, you-

Travis Kalanick 14:35 Yeah

Jason Calacanis 14:35 ... having known you for a while, I think believe in the individual and their exceptionalism and, and trying to-

Travis Kalanick 14:43 Sure

Jason Calacanis 14:43 ... uh, have a little ruggedness there. This is obviously the, the exact opposite. What's your take on what's happening in these pockets? 'Cause it's not national yet, but it's definitely notable.

Travis Kalanick 14:56 All right. I've, um, I've got, I've got sort of two aphorisms for us, okay? First is truth and justice is the immune system for society. When the immune system is suppressed, all the social ills flare up, okay? So if you're seeing us losing truth, like social media, mainstream media, whatever you call it, like, that's an early indicator for bad things happening in society, okay? And it's not just, like, social media, mainstream media, it's just everything around us. Um, and the same on the justice side too. If people commit crimes and there's no consequences, it's a nice early indicator. So you can kind of watch, you can watch these things and say, "Is truth winning today or is it losing?"

Jason Calacanis 15:49 Hmm.

Travis Kalanick 15:49 "Is justice winning today or is it losing?" And what is the trajectory will tell you, are we gonna get worse or are we gonna get better?

Jason Calacanis 15:58 Right. COVID makes, uh, and, and the Fauci case, now we're seeing a lot more information come out. We have a really hard time getting the truth, and maybe we'll get justice eventually. It seems like we're getting a little more truth five years later, but it's, like, a perfect example-

Travis Kalanick 16:10 So there's, like, a lot-

Jason Calacanis 16:10 ... of what you're discussing. Yeah

Travis Kalanick 16:11 ... there's a lot packed into that, but you can unpack it. If we had a lot of time, we could unpack it, but those become the sort of atomic things that you look at. And then the other thing I'd say, and, and some people get a little surprised when I say this, which is communism is in, is in all of us. Communism is in, is in our blood as humans. And people go, "What the hell are you talking about? You're crazy. What do you mean?" Well, I'm like, "Well, have you, have you ever in your life been lazy?" And everybody's like, "Yes, I've been lazy in my life before." I said, "Have you ever in your life wanted something for nothing?" Yeah. The difference is, do you make that a way of life? And when you have ecosystems that essentially allow you to do both of those things without consequence, those ecosystems get a critical mass and start taking hold, and I think that's what we're seeing.

Jason Calacanis 17:10 Well said. Yeah, I think it's well said. Uh, Gavin, I, I know you, uh... I don't know you to talk too much about politics but talk about markets, but these two things do relate, I think. So give us the economic perspective here on why this is happening, because obviously different generations have had different economic experiences, so I don't want to lead the witness here, but I have had conversations with you about this before.

Gavin Baker 17:34 Yeah. Well, so I do think, um, Iris, it... Obviously AI is, I think, going to be the defining political issue of the midterms, and for sure the, the next presidential election. But I feel like what is going on with the DSA is really a fusion of two things. So the Democratic Party, I, I, I was a Democrat for most of my life, and it was the party of the working class people that was trying to create opportunities, you know, maybe level out, um, equality, you know, help Black Americans, help Hispanic Americans. And, you know, you can agree or disagree- With their methods. But I think those are all noble goals. And to a large extent, none of those are really present in the DSA. None of them. If you look at who voted for which candidate, the p- the voting base of the DSA are relatively wealthy white liberals who are downwardly mobile. They're losing votes with working class people, they're losing votes with poor people, they're losing votes with Black Americans, they're losing votes with Hispanic Americans. And those, you know, the, the, the people that the Democratic Party, I think for a long time tried, and whether they failed or succeeded is up to... Tried to represent and give a voice to, they are not of interest to the DSA. And I think the DSA is, is dangerous. It's tragic that we are electing profoundly anti-American candidates who in some cases have called for violence, uh, to eradicate America. And I just think there's, there's a whole class of people who went to an elite school, they grew up in really nice circumstances and, uh, instead of going into industry, they went into this kind of giant NGO non-profit machine, and their outcomes have been very different from people who did productive things for the world. You know, I've said on the show many times, Elon has done more to decarbonize the planet than every activist combined.

Jason Calacanis 19:58 Yeah. Times 10, [laughs] by the way.

Gavin Baker 19:59 Yeah, times 10. And I think these NGOs and the fact that the government is increasingly outsourcing a lot of funding to them is a really big part of this problem. And they are pursuing policies, you know, I think we ta- maybe we talked about it last time, but the Curley effect, a mayor of Boston. You pursue policies that you know are going to be disastrous for the s- your constituents, but they drive out your rivals. And then you can give jobs, $600,000 a year jobs running an NGO that does nothing productive to your friends and allies, and it's really organized corruption happening at a massive scale.

Jason Calacanis 20:47 Mm-hmm.

Gavin Baker 20:47 You know, the, the one thing, whatever, whatever you wanna say about the Trump administration, a lot of people are up in arms about this, you know, new plane he's getting from the Qataris. Well, well, one, sounds like we needed a new plane, but two, it's right there for you to see. I think there are tens of billions, pr- maybe hundreds of billions of these payments flowing to these NGOs. And if you look in California and New York, it's, um... Like, I think the per capita spending on homelessness has more than doubled, and it's all gone to NGOs, and outcomes have gotten worse. In California, it's like quadrupled, and outcomes have gotten worse. So I think this is, this is dangerous, and I hope that the mainstream Democrats can find a compelling candidate. Because I think the reason that the DSA is increasingly ascendant is not because of their ideas. I think their ideas appear to this, appeal to this very nar- narrow subset, downwardly mobile, rich white people who, you know, increasingly maybe live in, you know, quasi-genteel poverty, 'cause they, they're not doing productive things. They may be well-intentioned, but they're not doing productive things. And can find a compelling candidate, 'cause I think the reason they're ascendant is Zohra Mamdani. I think he is one of the most talented politicians I've ever seen in my lifetime. You know, he can give a great speech, he's good in an interview, he can tap into all of this. He's kind of a chameleon who can shift. But I think he is a singularly talented politician, and he is the reason that the DSA is ascendant. Not their ideas or not dissatisfaction with AI, but it's him, and there is no one else in the Democratic Party. I used to think AOC was by far the most talented Democratic politician.

Jason Calacanis 22:44 That was the warm-up, yeah.

Gavin Baker 22:45 She was talented.

Jason Calacanis 22:47 Yes. Clearly.

Gavin Baker 22:47 She's nothing like Zohran from a political perspective.

Jason Calacanis 22:49 Zohran is clearly talented,

Jason Calacanis 22:51 and if you combine his charisma and ability to communicate with generations, like we're now, like, at two of these lost generations that feel like they're gonna do worse than their parents. And if you look at housing and college debt, healthcare, they don't believe that they can participate in the system. They feel the system's rigged. And if somebody comes along who speaks to them, and they ha- have no conception of socialism and what happened, you know, in Germany or during the Red Scare. They have no idea of what socialism or communism is. They have this incredible wrapper they've put around this, which is, you know, they're democratic socialists. It's like s- it's, it's the Coke Light. It's, it's a Coke Zero of socialism. It's actually just communism. They want to literally seize people's assets. They wanna seize half of, you know, these companies' stock, they wanna seize their wealth. They, they just want to take from the people who have made stuff, as we talked about last week, and we've done nothing to change their mind. We haven't made more houses, [laughs] we haven't made college more affordable. Uh, healthcare is a disaster, inflation's a disaster. A- and starting pointless wars. Obviously, the support of Israel is somewhere in here as part of all this.

Chamath Palihapitiya 24:02 Can I say something?

Gavin Baker 24:02 Yeah, sure. Of course.

Chamath Palihapitiya 24:03 Can I say something?

Gavin Baker 24:04 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 24:04 I was on Megyn Kelly yesterday, and I had this theory that I've been kind of working through, and I'll just share it with you guys, 'cause I'd love your reaction. If you look at the scourge of socialism- If you take the rhetoric away and you actually look at the outcomes, there are three countries that I think have veered far towards socialism well before the United States. Canada, the UK, and Australia. And I think when you look at any sort of reasonable measure of their progress, it's been an unmitigated disaster. So all of the virtue signaling on social issues, all of the virtue signaling on immigration and open borders, all of the virtue signaling on climate change has left th- each of those three countries in some state of disrepair with enormous amounts of infighting, tremendous political instability. They are all sort of powder kegs. And there's an interesting thing that happened in each of those three countries that I think has the potential to turn the tide, and it speaks to what Gavin said. Each of those three countries now have banned social media when you're 16 and under. And I think it's sort of like making sure the kid doesn't get addicted to the drug too early. And when you look at somebody like Zoran Mamdani, I think Gavin is right. I'll go even further. He, AOC, the lady that just won-

Travis Kalanick 25:35 Chevalier

Chamath Palihapitiya 25:36 ... Chevalier. Let's just break it down. They're all good-looking. They're all charismatic. They have their pulse on the, the gestalt of the moment. They know how to use social media, and they are essentially curating an army. Now, if you cut the legs off by saying young people should actually age into social media, I suspect that the most important channel of information consumption being taken away from them actually starts to give them the opportunity, and the rest of us quite honestly 'cause we have to deal with kids who are just really [beep] stupid constantly asking for this stuff, um, the chance to actually show you how a balanced diet actually allows you to be much healthier in your later life. And I think as re- relates to information consumption, I think you are going to see, I suspect, a far less radicalized youth aging into the voting roles in those three countries. And I suspect if you start to see political stability and predictability in Canada, the UK, and Australia, you can put your finger right on this ban as the reason why, and Florida's already done it in the United States and I think we need to deeply consider it across the rest of the United States.

Travis Kalanick 26:49 Can I-

Chamath Palihapitiya 26:50 Social media ban is now starting at 16 and, uh-

Travis Kalanick 26:54 Guys

Chamath Palihapitiya 26:54 ... Canada has it. It may come to the US. Go ahead, Travis.

Travis Kalanick 26:56 I'm a full counter to Chamath on this one. The... I, I think we all agree social media is bad for the kids and for the adults. Like, too much of that stuff is very bad. It's brain rot for real, and it's gonna be worse than cigarettes. It's all the things. But the real point of banning under 16 is so that you can force adults to identify themselves and de-anonymize themselves so you can set up a full-scale censorship regime, which they're sort of contemplating in the UK. And what censorship is really about is not about harmful content. It's about content that the people in power don't want you to see that disagrees with them. If it agreed with them, it's not harmful. It's the stuff that doesn't agree with them. And so what they're doing is they're criminalizing disagreeing with them. And so th- there's a derivative of this age-based stuff-

Chamath Palihapitiya 27:53 A- age gating

Travis Kalanick 27:54 ... that, which is really about the adults, not the kids.

Chamath Palihapitiya 27:58 That is the downside to it. Gavin, you wanted to add.

Gavin Baker 28:00 No, I super agree that, uh, I think that a social media ban under 16 would be great, but I think it comes at a really high cost outlined by Travis, and that's what's really going on, is they want to restrict anonymous accounts on X who say things that particularly the powers that be in the EU do not like. And if there's a way to do that while preserving anonymity and free speech, I'm all for it. But I think if, if it were not for free speech and, and X, like, I think we'd be living in a very different world today that would be a lot worse. And just to riff on a few things that, that, that all of you have said, you know, on communism, it is communism, and the great tragedy of human experiences we can't learn from the experiences of others. And it may not matter that communism has failed utterly and ended in death and misery wherever it has been tried in a variety of different cultures with a variety of different mechanisms, and every generation may need to experiment with it. I think the, the saving grace and the importance of preserving free speech is that the DSA's policies, and I would say in particular super progressive democratic policies, are measurably bad. They lead to bad outcomes. If you care about Black lives, there's a study that is uncontested that when you elect a Republican DA, all-cause mortality for young Black men in that city drops by 7%. That's all it takes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 29:36 Yeah.

Gavin Baker 29:37 You care about the environment? Well, progressives, there's so many regulations that you can't build solar, which is really the only thing that matters and, like, the world is gonna run on sunlight. You care about education? Their approach to education of getting rid of these elite schools that allows low-income people to have a real chance, you know, getting rid of math in California-

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:00 Awful

Gavin Baker 30:01 ... it is profoundly disadvantageous to people. It leads to terrible outcomes, and we all know what happens with crime. It turns out that there's a certain percentage of people who, you know, are... Well, I think it's, like, 60, over 60% of the violence or 75% of the violence- ... comes from people who have, like, 10 or more convictions

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:24 Yeah, I, I think the specific stat is, like, .1% commits 70% of the crimes. And if you just dealt with the .1%, you'd have-

Gavin Baker 30:31 Yeah

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:32 ... effectively no crime.

Gavin Baker 30:33 And so I just think the scary thing is, and I do worry for the first time, like, as a student of history, the United States has been, like, a very stable political, economic entity, geographically stable for a long time. And that's to its credit, 'cause we could have literally taken over the world after World War II. But man, if they get total control of some of these cities and drive out everyone who is productive, I don't know how you come back. And so that's, that is a little worrisome to me in terms of the future of, of the United States.

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:11 Sure.

David Sacks 31:11 Well, and by the way, I, I, I don't think it's just New York. I mean, that race for mayor in LA, where, was it Raman somehow beat Spencer Pratt, thanks to ballot harvesting after voting day? Or I should say votes that were found and counted after election day. I mean, that will be a test to the DSA because they are highly organized, and they have learned how to take advantage of all these rules, these ballot harvesting rules, and all these types of things. The DSA, I think they've got something like half the city council seats now in LA, and they're growing. So especially in these low-turnout elections, and look, this was a Democratic primary in New York, which is a strongly blue state, so I think maybe 17% turned out, so I mean, it was very low, but this is where the DSA really thrives and excels because they care passionately, and they're highly organized, and they know how to take advantage. This is why they want all these, like, rank choice voting and all these types of things. They know how to manipulate and take advantage of those kinds of systems. So I think that you're gonna see this in lots of other jurisdictions, wherever they're organized. I think LA will be a really interesting test. So I don't think we can just chalk this up to Zoran's popularity, you know. This is a national movement, and we're gonna see it in a lot of places. But there's no question that Mamdani is now kind of the spiritual leader. I mean, a lot of these people don't... They think AOC is a sellout, you know, or Bernie is a sellout. You know, they are way more radical than even, even those types.

Chamath Palihapitiya 32:41 To add to that, Sacks-

David Sacks 32:42 Yeah

Chamath Palihapitiya 32:42 ... they did learn something from Trump, which is build a big tent. So you're seeing Bernie, Mamdani, Ro Khanna. They're all kinda like-

David Sacks 32:49 Mm-hmm

Chamath Palihapitiya 32:49 ... "Yeah, we're different, but there's enough room in this tent."

David Sacks 32:52 Well, what's happening is that these sort of more established progressive leaders, they wanna tap into this energy, and even the establishment wing of the Democratic Party is now bending the knee. And so what you're gonna see is, regardless of how many DSA candidates actually get elected, the rest of the party is now responding to this, and they're gonna bend, and they're gonna blow in this direction because they don't wanna get challenged in a primary. I mean, think about this. You had three major congressional races where the Mamdani candidate won two of them unseated, you know, really strong incumbents. These were big upsets. So you gotta think now that every congressional race in a pretty blue district, those members are now gonna have to take into account that they could get primaried, and they're gonna have to tilt their voting and their views and their rhetoric in this DSA direction 'cause they don't wanna have happen to them what just happened to Dan Goldman in the New York 10th District. And just to make one last point on that, so Jake, how... You mentioned the, the Israel issue, and I actually think that is a hugely important and salient issue now in the Democratic Party, in Democratic primaries. Obviously, you saw that as part of the DSA platform, one of the legs is free Palestine. This defeat of Dan Goldman, two-time congressman, he led the, the impeachment effort against Trump. He had all the right progressive credentials. He checked the box on all the left-wing policies. He was on the right cable news channels all the time. No one expected him to lose. He lost to Brad Lander really just over this issue of Israel. Dan Goldman is, is very pro-Israel. He basically defended Israel's actions over the past few years, whereas Lander, who, like Goldman, is also Jewish, so this was again, you know, white Jewish congressman against white Jewish longtime New York politician, so on paper they're very similar. It was just in this issue of Israel th- where they disagreed, and Lander went to a mosque in order to denounce what he called the genocide in Gaza. So this was really as close as you can get to a straight-up vote on that one issue in this primary, and Lander won pretty handily. Now, the reason for this is if you look at polling, 80% of Democrats now say they disapprove of Israel, so, you know, the approval, disapproval rating. Israel used to have high approval ratings pretty much across the board. I mean, it was sort of a consensus, both Democrats and Republicans. Now 80% of Democrats say they disapprove. You really can't underestimate how much of a motivator this is for young Democrats. They believe that-

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:30 Well, we saw it. They were all over campuses, Sacks. They-

David Sacks 35:32 Sure

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:33 ... we, we see it. I mean, it, it draws people out, and it has been quite polarizing, just to call balls and strikes here, inside the Republican Party as well. You have Tucker leaving the party over this.

David Sacks 35:41 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:41 You have Megyn Kelly going mental over this, and you have, you know, a lot of civil war inside this administration according to the reports. So this is the-

David Sacks 35:49 Well, let me, let me, let me, um...

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:51 Yeah

David Sacks 35:51 Look, I mean, uh, I'm not taking a side in this. I'm just trying to describe-

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:54 Sure

David Sacks 35:54 ... what's, what's going on, so.

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:55 Absolutely. Same as me.

David Sacks 35:56 I think the Republican Party is a little bit more mixed on this issue, and it really comes down to age. So if you're part of the older, more establishment Republicans, let's say you're a Fox News viewer, you still have high approval ratings for Israel. But if you're under 50, which means you're probably not watching Fox that much anymore, you're probably onto the podcast, I think the, the disapproval rating for Israel is now 57%.

Chamath Palihapitiya 36:20 Interesting.

David Sacks 36:20 So it really comes down to age. Young people across the board-

Gavin Baker 36:24 Have serious problems with what Israel is doing, and then, you know, as you get into older age groups, that's where you see a big difference between the Democrats and Republicans

Jason Calacanis 36:31 And to be clear, I think Chamath, you did a wonderful job of explaining this on Megyn Kelly. There's Jewish people, there's the state of Israel, there's Israelis who live in the state of Israel who are also Jewish, and then there's Bibi Netanyahu. And I think there's a lot of concern-

Chamath Palihapitiya 36:45 Yeah, I mean, look, I need to say this again

Jason Calacanis 36:46 ... on Bibi Netanyahu is just absolutely out of control is the consensus, I think, amongst many people across many religions and, and political parties.

Chamath Palihapitiya 36:55 Not to rehash this whole thing, but there are a lot of parallels from what happened in 10/7 and what happened in 9/11 in the following ways. When you invade a country and you slaughter their people, it creates an enormous injury, an enormous emotional, physical, psychological injury. And what that country typically does is respond by giving the authority to the leader at that time to set the table right. And you have to remember, there was a lot of things that happened post 9/11 that under any other circumstance would never have happened. At the top of the list would've been the Patriot Act, which, in any other world, would never have gotten passed and would've seen the light of day, but not for 9/11. So there are moments where leaders are put in a position and they essentially act on behalf of their country and their people to right a wrong. I understand that. I think everybody understands it. What's happened now, though, is that people cannot logically disambiguate Jews, Israelis, and Bibi, and I think that's very unfortunate because we're at a point in time where everything gets conflated, and this thing has become this third rail issue, and I find it absolutely shocking. It's completely reasonable for people to have a point of view on Bibi and say, "Hey, you know what? It's enough," or, "It's gotten too far," or whatever it is. And I think that there's a very reasonable claim to make that it's time to find different leadership, new leadership inside of-

Jason Calacanis 38:29 Yep

Chamath Palihapitiya 38:29 ... Israel and have an opportunity to reset their standing on the global stage. They deserve that. The Israeli people are incredible. Jews are incredible. But the idea that you fold it all together and you look at one person and then you apply it to an entire country and an entire religion is insane.

Gavin Baker 38:47 May I add one thing?

Jason Calacanis 38:49 Yeah.

Gavin Baker 38:49 May I add one thing?

Jason Calacanis 38:49 Please, Gavin. Yeah.

Gavin Baker 38:50 Is I think there's what, well, two things really, and I'll be quick. One, Israel has a giant PR problem. They need a young, sub-30 fe- or 35-year-old American Israeli who's super fluent in English, conversant in social media, and is their kind of spokesperson to America, and they need that in France, in Germany, in every country, and they do not have that. There was a young, I think his name... I forget his name, but there was a young Israeli who was doing a really good job, Israeli American, representing Israel after October 7th, and evidently Bibi Netanyahu's wife didn't like him, so they canned him, and they've never really found a r- replacement.

Jason Calacanis 39:28 Mm.

Gavin Baker 39:28 And I do think this is an urgent issue for Israel because it's like they are taking body blows every second, and they're not even responding. And what I think they do, what they tend to do is they'll sometimes roll out someone who's a great man or woman in Israel and is in their 60s and a hero of a war, but isn't that fluent in social media. Maybe the command of English is, you know, technically precise, but there, there's an accent. And those are great people, but they're not great spokespe- spokespersons, and this is an urgent issue. As far as the antidote, going back to Chamath's comment, I do think a big reason Trump got elected, every Democrat... uh, well, many of the Democrats I know who voted for Trump, a big part of it was that during COVID they heard what their children were being taught and it was-

Chamath Palihapitiya 40:25 For the first time [laughs]

Gavin Baker 40:26 ... and it was radicalizing for them.

Chamath Palihapitiya 40:28 Yeah.

Gavin Baker 40:28 And I think it's just really important that, like, as part of the American educational system, just there not be overtly anti-American things. Listen, we've made mistakes as a country. We're not perfect. We're about as good as it gets.

Jason Calacanis 40:43 Yeah.

Gavin Baker 40:43 And we need to tell that story in every grade consistently, and we can have a debate. We've done so many things wrong. Let's learn from them. But just, you know, slavery was endemic to the world apart from some countries in East Asia. Like, it's not a uniquely American problem, and we need to tell those stories 'cause I think a lot of kids, the reason they're so susceptible to this social media propaganda is they've been brought up being ashamed to be American, ashamed of various things in their identity, and being told that America is evil, and we need to unwind that because America is awesome, and we're the only vaguely successful multicultural s- society on planet Earth.

Jason Calacanis 41:29 Yeah, the melting pot.

Gavin Baker 41:30 Period.

Jason Calacanis 41:30 And if you say that, Gavin, if you say the melting pot is a beautiful thing, you're gonna get canceled because, oh my God, you're getting rid of people's culture. It's like, no, no, keep your culture-

Gavin Baker 41:40 Yeah [laughs]

Jason Calacanis 41:40 ... and then join this culture, and we can all have this great smorgasbord.

Gavin Baker 41:43 That's it.

Chamath Palihapitiya 41:43 Yeah. And you know what, and you know what my culture is? You know what my culture is?

Gavin Baker 41:46 Oh, no.

Jason Calacanis 41:47 It's no longer Loro Piana, I know that. I know you're off the train.

Chamath Palihapitiya 41:50 Winning.

Jason Calacanis 41:51 Winning. The culture of winning. I love it.

Chamath Palihapitiya 41:54 Learning.

Jason Calacanis 41:54 That's it. Learning.

Chamath Palihapitiya 41:55 Progress. Adventure.

Gavin Baker 41:57 Chamath, do you piss excellence, to quote, quote Ricky Bobby?

Chamath Palihapitiya 42:00 Oftentimes I piss excellence [laughs] .

Jason Calacanis 42:03 Just to wrap up here-

Chamath Palihapitiya 42:04 Sometimes it burns, but oftentimes

Jason Calacanis 42:06 ... um, just to warn-

Gavin Baker 42:07 [laughs] You're so funny, dude

Jason Calacanis 42:07 ... just to warn the dopey Democrats who have been unable to get anything done, the socialists are using your party, and, uh, this guy went viral. They're, they're just a host. Like, they literally want to infect the Dem- [laughs] oh, yeah, good image.

Gavin Baker 42:24 That's, that-

Jason Calacanis 42:24 Uh, they wanna infect the Democratic Party and then, like, just- ... literally get the voting base. And this guy, Gustavo Gordillo, I don't know if you guys saw this, he's a DSA co-chair in New York City, and he just said it outright. I'm just gonna read you the quote. "We're part of the Democratic Party caucus, but we don't agree with the way the Democratic Party runs its apparatus, so we're trying to build our own independence by focusing on volunteer-led movement. We think everyone should be able to be trained and become someone who can participate in the political process, and we don't think the Democratic Party is run that way. In terms of the agenda, there's a problem with the Democratic Party. They are funded by billionaire donors, and at the same time, they're trying to represent the working class. In our opinion, you have to choose between the billionaire class and the working class. They are just taking over the party." And again, back to the playbook, this worked really well for [laughs] Trump. He took the Republican Party over, and he owned them. And they tried to get him out, they tried to get him out, but his message and his communication style was just too on point. He knew exactly what people wanted to hear, and he knew exactly how to deliver it. He is a all-time comedic performer. Like, of non-c- of non-comedians, he's the number one comedian in the world, and of actual comedians, he's in the top 20. So he communicates perfectly, and that's exactly what Mamdani's done. He's taken the Trump playbook, and he has applied it here. He is taking over with this communication. You guys know I'm a diehard Knick fan my whole life. Cried and was at game five when they won the finals. And then Mamdani gave this speech that somebody wrote for him about the Knicks, and I was just absolutely flabbergasted and upset that it was so great. He's got that Obama/Trump charisma, and he is going to destroy your party from the inside out. Socialism is communism, and it is the road to suffering and pain, as Gavin said, so no good will come out of it.

David Sacks 44:08 Isn't it amazing?

Jason Calacanis 44:09 [laughs] Here we go.

David Sacks 44:09 Okay. You know, you know Mamdani is a communist, and what he represents-

Jason Calacanis 44:14 Of course

David Sacks 44:15 ... is basically evil. And yet, because he just gave a speech about the Knicks, you love him now.

Jason Calacanis 44:20 No, I loved the speech.

David Sacks 44:21 [laughs] That's all it takes.

Jason Calacanis 44:22 And I'm, like, watching the speech with cognitive dissonance.

David Sacks 44:23 That all, that's all it takes. We're screwed.

Gavin Baker 44:25 Man.

David Sacks 44:25 That's all it takes.

Jason Calacanis 44:26 It's true, though. If somebody said the sneaker-

David Sacks 44:28 By the way, I mean, this guy, he's a total phony. I mean, he doesn't stop smiling. He's got this, like, crocodile smile all the time. He's talking about, you know, eating you.

Jason Calacanis 44:36 Yeah.

David Sacks 44:37 And it's totally fake.

Jason Calacanis 44:38 Absolutely.

David Sacks 44:39 I mean, come on.

Jason Calacanis 44:40 He, he had me hypnotized.

David Sacks 44:40 You gotta be able to see through it.

Jason Calacanis 44:41 He was, he was making Knicks references, and it was the most get out of your seat, standing ovation cheer, you know, speech I've ever heard about the Knicks, and I was infuriated. This [beep] guy is such a good orator.

David Sacks 44:54 You got programmed.

Jason Calacanis 44:55 I hate him.

David Sacks 44:55 We're gonna have to deprogram you now.

Jason Calacanis 44:57 No, no, no. It was like getting, like, uh, hypnotized, and I just pulled myself out. I got, like, pulled in for a second.

Gavin Baker 45:03 Oh, I have a-

David Sacks 45:04 Next topic.

Jason Calacanis 45:05 Next topic, for sure. [laughs]

Gavin Baker 45:08 Yeah. [laughs]

Jason Calacanis 45:08 Oh, my God. Great, good str- strong first topic. I didn't know you guys were gonna go all in, so

Jason Calacanis 45:12 to speak. Topic two, Chinese open source models appear to be catching up with the US frontier models. Let's start with a GLM 5.2 released by China, Z.AI. This is a frontier class, open source, free to download anywhere model. 744 billion parameters, one million token context window, and it's under the MIT license. If you don't know what that is, open source, uh, licenses have very spec-

Gavin Baker 45:36 Super open source, you know?

Jason Calacanis 45:38 It's super open source. Thank you.

Gavin Baker 45:39 The most open source.

Jason Calacanis 45:40 The most open source of all open source. If you open it up, you can use it however you like. Uh, you can fork it. You can build your own company based on that. No regional restrictions, no API, fully self-hostable. No, uh, no Darien-

Gavin Baker 45:55 It's just yours. It's just yours

Jason Calacanis 45:56 ... yanking your chain. It's yours. Do what you want with it.

Gavin Baker 45:57 It's just yours.

Jason Calacanis 45:58 That's it.

Gavin Baker 45:59 And you just gotta, you just gotta reference the, you just gotta reference the license. That's it.

Jason Calacanis 46:03 Yeah. You shout out the license, and you're good. Scored 51 points on the Artificial Analysis Intelligence index. That's the highest score of any open weight model ever. Stacks up nicely next to the frontier models, beat GPT 5.5 on the frontier SWE coding benchmark. That's a software one. Trails Claude Opus 4.8 by less than one percentage point. API usage cost obviously much cheaper. 85% cheaper, in fact, than GPT 5.5 for comparable performance. Z.AI founder told Elon Musk open weight fable capabilities will be here sooner than Q1 2027. Gavin, in other words, all this hand-wringing, all of these legal restrictions, self-imposed restrictions, are now completely or close to completely moot if they're going to have a model in Q1. Does this six months even matter? Does six months in the grand arc of AI matter or not? And what does this mean for frontier models?

Gavin Baker 47:01 I do think how good GLM 5.2 is has challenged some of my beliefs. And there was a great p- post from a TPU engineer that for sure distillation has happened. There's been a, been an immense amount of distillation, no question. You know-

Jason Calacanis 47:16 Please explain to the audience what that means

Gavin Baker 47:18 ... distillation is when you have, you know, a, a... Like, you know, we all have seen videos of these Chinese iPhone farms. Just picture a farm like that, tens of thousands of phones, iPads, and computers that are asking the Claude API through masked accounts very specific questions, and then these, what's called reasoning traces, are being harvested. 'Cause if you're on the API, you know, you get to see every token. And those reasoning traces are then fed back into the model during the reinforcement learning process and probably during the pre-training process, and that is a way that you can get really, really close to the frontier at a fraction of the cost. And this is for sure going on, and has gone on for a long time. I do think-

Jason Calacanis 48:08 It's a cheat sheet. It's a cheat sheet for other models to catch up

Gavin Baker 48:12 ... it, it would be like, it would be like, it, it would be like asking Google every question you could ever imagine, every search imaginable, getting all the results, and then putting your own search engine together.

Jason Calacanis 48:20 All together.

Gavin Baker 48:20 To make it very simple. Yeah. Exactly. But now that this model is so good, it is good enough to do its own RL And, you know, the kind of cat may be out of the bag. Now, I don't think we really know how good Mythos is. We don't really know how good the no- next OpenAI model is. We haven't seen the next SpaceX model. So maybe that gap opens up again. But either way, I profoundly believe the future is composable models, and you're going to every enterprise. You're gonna have a- what Andrej Karpathy called a council of LLMs. You're gonna have, you know, you're gonna have Grok, you're gonna have Anthropic, you're gonna have OpenAI, Google. You're gonna have at least two of those. I would argue Grok should always be one of the two 'cause of its dedication to the truth, and it will tell you as a business owner a politically inconvenient truth that you need to know for your data. But you're also going to have your own open-weights model that you RL'd on your data, and you're gonna put those two together, the frontier models and your own model, and you are going to get, you know, real Pareto-dominant outcomes. And, you know, half the queries are gonna be go to the open-source model, maybe 85%, and only the hardest ones are then... Maybe they all go to open source first, and only the hardest ones are then checked by the frontier models. So I think this is the future. It's coming. And a misconception that a lot of people have is that open-source models are, you know, somehow bad for AI. They're awesome for the AI infrastructure providers. They just shift economic value from the margins of the frontier labs to the infrastructure, and that's not bad for AI.

David Sacks 49:59 That's great for them.

Gavin Baker 50:01 It's great for them. It's-

David Sacks 50:02 It's great for them

Gavin Baker 50:03 ... but I do think there's still a role for these frontier models, and it may be true. To date, frontier tokens are capturing 90% of the economic value, and open-source tokens are probably 80%-plus of tokens processed, and those ratios may be here to stay, but I just think composable models are the future.

David Sacks 50:23 What does that mean, composable model?

Gavin Baker 50:25 Well, a composable model where you have, if you're a corporation, if you're, um... Do, is there, is there a new name for your super-secret, um, startup, Travis? What's the new name?

David Sacks 50:37 No, no, the, the, the name is called Adams. It's not super secret. It's super awesome. [laughs]

Gavin Baker 50:42 Su- It's super awesome. Super awesome. Um, for your super awesome startup, Adams, which man, lo- loads of people have been calling me to say how, like, they've been in the, you know, they've, they've spoken to you and-

David Sacks 50:54 Yeah

Gavin Baker 50:54 ... investor, the, the, uh, your, your dog is hunting with investors, Travis.

David Sacks 50:59 All right. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Jason Calacanis 51:00 Hmm. Okay.

Gavin Baker 51:02 You're going to have a router, and every query that somebody comes in, every task that needs to be done at your company, that router is gonna send it to, you know, your-

David Sacks 51:12 Sure

Gavin Baker 51:12 ... RL SFT version of-

David Sacks 51:14 Of course

Gavin Baker 51:14 ... 5.2 or NeMo Tron.

David Sacks 51:16 Yes.

Gavin Baker 51:17 Then at some point in the workflow, a frontier model may or may not come in to kind of check it, add to it, and that's what I mean by a composable model, when you have kind of, um, you know, kind of a symphony of models working together with kind of the frontier models being, you know, maybe the conductors.

David Sacks 51:35 Sure.

Gavin Baker 51:35 But that's what I mean when I say composable.

David Sacks 51:37 Yeah. Understood. Thank you.

Jason Calacanis 51:39 Sachs, formerly AI tsar a- and now running pCast, what are your thoughts on China's ascension in open source? And we're still looking for our open-source champion, obviously, here in the US, but feels like-

Gavin Baker 51:53 No, no, let me, can I just say one thing?

Jason Calacanis 51:55 Sure.

Gavin Baker 51:55 NVIDIA is the American open-source champion.

Jason Calacanis 51:57 Thank you. Yeah.

Gavin Baker 51:58 They can release GLM 5.2 or better whenever they want.

Jason Calacanis 52:02 Okay. But why haven't they done that? They don't want to screw their customers? Too much of a conflict to be, like, pushing it out there too often?

Gavin Baker 52:11 All of the above. Who knows? We'll see.

Jason Calacanis 52:14 Okay. Yeah, and y- you gotta be delicate there. I see. Okay.

Gavin Baker 52:16 Yes.

Jason Calacanis 52:17 So I'll say it, not you. [laughs] Jensen doesn't... Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a ch- it's a classic channel conflict, right? You're s-

Gavin Baker 52:22 Well-

Jason Calacanis 52:22 You, you don't wanna compete with your customers, and he is competing with Elon on self-driving now, and Elon's making his own chips. So-

Gavin Baker 52:30 I think these, uh, frontier model companies should think very, very carefully about ASICs-

Jason Calacanis 52:36 Well, that's-

Gavin Baker 52:37 ... and the incentive that creates for NVIDIA. On the model perspective-

Jason Calacanis 52:40 If OpenAI, which launched their Jalapeno chip this week and announced it being built by, I believe, Broadcom, and they are saying, "Hey, F you," to Jensen and NVIDIA, and they already were full contact with him, don't be surprised if NVIDIA says, "You know what? We kind of like the area you're operating in." Now that you're gonna make chips and maybe OpenAI sells those chips to other people, don't be surprised if NVIDIA starts an OpenAI competitor. You heard it here first on All-In. Sachs, did you wanna jump in there?

David Sacks 53:12 Sure. I mean, look, I think that China's been good at open source for a while here. There's nothing new about that. But there are a few things that are significant about GLM 5.2. So the first one is it is now, like you said, the best open-weight model for coding, software engineering, and long-context agent work. And you gave a couple of the SWE-bench scores. I mean, it was just a tick below Opus 4.8, and it was right up there with GPT 5.5. So if you compare this to, again, the state-of-the-art of the frontier models from Anthropic and OpenAI, it is right there with the previous model. But you have to remember now that the current model, Fable for Anthropic and 5.6 for OpenAI, is now in a little bit of a purgatory because of all the reasons we covered last week. Now, look, I, like I said last week, I ultimately blame Dario and the way he communicated and the way that he primed officials to be on a hair trigger with respect to these models, and when the government got a credible report about a jailbreak from, you know, one of Anthropic's own most trusted partners, you're gonna say, "Roll that back." But that is the situation we're in right now. Is that Fable has been rolled back and GPT 5.6 is trying to navigate these new approval hoops. So we now have a Chinese open weight model that is as good as the currently available models from OpenAI and Anthropic. And look, this is a point I've been making really since I joined the administration, is that we are in a very competitive situation with China. I've been saying this from the beginning. Our whole AI strategy from the get-go was about winning this AI race, defining it as a race, as being globally competitive, and we cannot afford to do things unnecessarily that slow our companies down. I hope that by the-

David Friedberg 55:16 David, can I-

David Sacks 55:17 Yeah, go ahead

David Friedberg 55:17 David, can I ask, do you think Dario got exactly what he wanted? It seems to me there's some chance this has been a very calculated strategy to provoke the US government into doing what they just did, and this is what he wants. He has a regulatory moat now. He can keep-

David Sacks 55:31 Yeah

David Friedberg 55:31 ... his future models behind this, you know, give it out to Glasswing, use it to distill it for him- for themselves. Do you think it-- this is what they wanted?

David Sacks 55:40 I think that on a certain level it is what they wanted because they've been advocating to have a federal regulator, basically a new agency. In fact, Dario posted a blog just a few weeks ago saying he wants an FAA for AI. They wanted government approval, a government approval process for AI models. And so in a sense, they've gotten exactly what they wanted. Now, that being said, I don't think they're happy about the fact that Fable has been rolled back. So in a sense, you could say that Dario got hoisted on his own petard here, or it could be a FAFO situation. But look, my view on it is we should not reward Dario by giving him exactly what he's always craved, which is some sort of labyrinthine government approval process that does reward regulatory capture. So I hope that very soon now, I do think that as long as Anthropic has resolved the jailbreak issue, then I do think they should be allowed to come back to market. And similarly for OpenAI, I don't think we should be delaying them unnecessarily. We do not have months to give away in this race. And let me just say one other thing, which again, it's something I've been saying for months, which is with respect to risks like cyber, it is undoubtedly a risk. But what is the response to that? The only thing you can do is go out and find all the vulnerabilities first yourself, the white hats. Have the white hats find all the vulnerabilities and do a big upgrade cycle, roll out the patches before they can be exploited. The reality is that if you just clamp down in a way that doesn't even allow these models to be used, the Chinese are gonna have these capabilities imminently anyway. You know, they're already at Opus 4.8 level. And the founder of Z.AI, he said that before Q1 they'll have Fable level capability. I believe them because, look, the, the Chinese have been, I'd say, nine months behind our models, plus or minus three months, depending on capability. But it's when they know there's been a breakthrough around something like cyber, they can deploy more resources against-

David Friedberg 57:47 Yeah

David Sacks 57:47 ... that particular problem and catch up faster.

David Friedberg 57:50 Yeah, they're, they're also-

David Sacks 57:51 So we're, like I said, we're on a shot clock here. I've been saying for months that we're on a shot clock. We have to do smart things. We can't just slow everything down because that will not slow down the Chinese. They're not under our jurisdiction. We have to basically get these tools in the hands of our cybersecurity industry. They're the force multiplier. They're the enabler. We have to basically go out and do this big upgrade cycle quickly, 'cause we only have a few months left.

David Friedberg 58:16 They're six months behind on the model, and they're 24 months behind on the silicon, yet they're only a few months behind in total. So [laughs] what game are we playing? This is insane. We are gonna lose if we keep doing this stuff to ourselves.

David Sacks 58:29 So let me make a point about that. So on the silicon, there's been a huge push in China by the government to push their AI labs to develop and train on Huawei chips. And look, you can take these claims with a grain of salt. Maybe they're not true, but it was claimed that DeepSeek V4 was trained on Huawei chips, and now Z.AI, they are saying that the GLM 5 family was trained entirely on clusters of Huawei Ascend 910B chips. So now look, maybe they're lying, maybe they smuggled in some Nvidia chips. But the claim is that this was all done on indigenous chips. And what I believe is that China is engaged in a strong indigenization push right now. They want to prop up n- Huawei as the national champion. They want all their companies using Huawei chips. They still need to scale some of the manufacturing, but they're gonna do that pretty quickly. And then what they're gonna do is they're gonna take these Huawei chips, they're gonna take these Huawei optimized models. Remember that GLM 5.2, the inference is optimized for the Huawei chips, okay? We know that. And they are basically gonna package these things up. They call it AI in a box, and they're gonna sell it at a fraction of the cost globally. And they're gonna try-

David Friedberg 59:47 Which is what they do with every technology, right? Better, cheaper, faster-

David Sacks 59:50 Exactly

David Friedberg 59:51 ... or almost as good. Yeah.

David Sacks 59:52 And that's another thing is I've been saying since the beginning of this administration, we have to be pro-export because China is gonna be there within one or two years, as I said. We're gonna be kicking ourselves because we could have had the whole global market to ourselves. We invented reasons not to sell abroad to our friends and partners, and now China is gonna be there imminently.

David Friedberg 1:00:12 Yeah. And with that lower price tag. When you play with, uh, this new GL, y- you get some really interesting responses. It, uh, I asked it about the country of Taiwan [laughs] was not pleased and, uh, didn't give me an answer. I asked it about Tiananmen Square, no answer as well. I'm using the hosted version at Z.AI. Uh, but when I asked it places to visit in Paris, it did an exceptional job, except-

Jason Calacanis 1:00:35 When I said make these ideas into an infographic and make me like a three-day agenda, it was like, "Hey, we don't have enough time to do that." And it said, "Use the other model because this model's too busy." But you can go play with it at z.ai.

David Sacks 1:00:49 Just on a point about the censorship. So there's no question that these Chinese models have, you could say, censorship and, you know, there's political bias in there out of the box. But American companies have taken Chinese models and then essentially worked around and basically fixed the censorship inside their own forked version. So, for example, Perplexity did this very early on with Chinese models. They showed that you could sort of put back the content on Tiananmen Square and things like that. So I think, JCal, you're absolutely right about the censorship, but it's not a fatal problem. It's something that American companies can fix when they-

Jason Calacanis 1:01:28 Yeah

David Sacks 1:01:28 ... take an open source model and fork it and customize it.

Jason Calacanis 1:01:31 Yeah. In the hosted version, you're not gonna get [laughs] a great answer of what agenda you should use for tourism in the great country of Taiwan [laughs] or your visit to Tiananmen Square. All right, let's keep moving here on the dock at

Jason Calacanis 1:01:46 Micron smashed their earnings. If you don't know Micron, they are one of only three companies on Earth that make high bandwidth memory. These are specialized chips. They sit on top of the NVIDIA GPU, and their entire twenty twenty-six supply is sold out and has been for some time. SK Hynix and Samsung also make HBM. Micron smashed earnings, revenue up four X, four X year over year, nine billion to forty-two billion, beat expectations by sixteen percent. Big jump in guidance for Q4, fifty billion versus forty-three billion. Their stock is up 10X. Shout out to Gavin. In our twenty twenty-five prediction show, he gave, uh, a call on HBM makers like Micron as the best performing asset. Since that time, Micron up fourteen X.

Gavin Baker 1:02:34 I'm not crying in my soup.

Jason Calacanis 1:02:35 You're not crying in your soup. I got a ton of information here. I think this-- Well, I'll just end on the Apple price increases. Everybody knows Apple has been really, uh, been a beneficiary of the Run Local models movement that I'm part of, and, and people are buying hundred and twenty-eight gig, two hundred and fifty-six gig MacBook Pros, Mac Studios. But the gig is up apparently because now Apple, which had not passed on those costs to customers, is having to pass those increases on. So everything from, you know, the new MacBook Neo, which is their six ninety-nine laptop, you know, kinda competing with Chromebooks, is now seven ninety-nine, up fifty-- fourteen percent, and Mac Studio up twenty-five percent. The costs are just gonna be very significant. Inflation has come to the desktop. Your thoughts, Gavin, on Micron and the impact on the industry, and is this a temporary bottleneck, or does this mean everybody has to get into this business quickly?

Gavin Baker 1:03:35 No. Well, one, DRAM is the most important bottleneck. There's a whole segment of people on X who are very focused on bottleneck. I ca-bottlenecks, they call them the bottleneck bros. You know, they'll, they'll do some work with Claude, find some esoteric Japanese company. The bottleneck that matters is DRAM. And DRAM and HBM DRAM, this is the most important bottleneck simply because memory capacity and bandwidth are foundational to the performance of every AI model. So this is the most important bottleneck. Elon is focusing the Terafab on memory 'cause he sees it as the most important bottleneck. You know, not lasers, not capacitors, not power, power supplies, semiconductors, not NAND flash, not HDDs, DRAM. Uh, and I think this bottleneck is gonna be with us for a while. And it is kind of astonishing. So I think-- So a few thoughts. Like, what was important about the quarter? They announced that they have these SDAs, these supply chain agreements, that have a floor and a ceiling for prices with in- increasingly large group of large customers. And this covers essentially fifty percent of their revenue, I think with just four customers. And the floor pricing in these new contracts is ahead of prior cycle peaks from a gross margin perspective. And so this is really, I think, pretty maybe end up being very transformational for the industry. Most other parts of the semiconductor supply chain have rerated. You know, Lam Research, you know, the s- the wafer fab equipment suppliers, you know, they all trade at huge premiums to DRAM relative to prior cycles, and their business models have improved. But, you know, so has the industry structure and business models of DRAM because HBM DRAM is increasingly a customized chip. But as far as other people being able to do this, look, CXMT is going public in China. They're going to-- They may be the cure for Apple's ills. They will flood the market with, to some degree, cheap consumer-grade DRAM. But for the DRAM you need in these AI servers, there are three companies that can make it. It's really hard to do. This is as close to magic as science can get. And, you know, I think Terafab, Terafab, you know, is gonna be an important part of this solution. But, um, you know, these, these stocks still trade or cross-sectionally cheap relative to the rest of AI. Something I've been thinking about, memory is DRAM is probably gonna be thirty to forty percent of all hyperscaler CapEx next year. Every do- hundreds of billions of dollars that are spent, you know, [laughs] going straight to DRAM. It's wild. But this may actually be very valuable for society because it is probably, you know, going to, you know, inflate the cost of building a gigawatt data center to the point where, like, you know, even for the hyperscalers, um- Economics matter. We're caught in this prisoner's dilemma, and this may give us, as a society, time to adapt, to adapt, you know, what our friend Brad Gershner calls the social contract. So the high iPhone prices, you know, one, CXMT is coming for consumer-grade DRAM. But two, this may be good for AI. It may be good for us as a society.

Jason Calacanis 1:06:59 And making it is just really pure silicon, right? Like, making memory-

Gavin Baker 1:07:05 Yes

Jason Calacanis 1:07:05 ... is just this incredibly refined silicon, and that might be the pre-bottleneck?

Gavin Baker 1:07:11 Yeah, yeah, making the HBM DRAM, making what NVIDIA calls Socam, making LPDDR. These are the k- types of DRAM that are really hard to make, not consumer-grade DRAM, and they are increasingly what you need in these AI data centers.

Jason Calacanis 1:07:26 Yeah. Semiconductor-grade. Yeah.

David Sacks 1:07:29 Yeah, so my understanding of HBM, stands for high bandwidth memory, again, this is part of the, you know, the GPUs that go in the data center to run AI, is that you take the, the DRAM wafer or die, and you actually stack them. And so I think HBM3 is, like, eight- it's stacked eight dies high, but now they're increasing to 12 and even 16. And to basically stack them and then package them all together is- that's an advanced technology in and of itself. So you're seeing now, like Gavin's saying, there's only three companies that can do it, but also this is creating significant price pressure for all the consumer electronics businesses. Apple had huge news today where they announced massive price increases. And again, it's because DRAM now is less available because it's just being hoovered up by all the data centers. And if you're a data center and you need to buy GPUs, again, those chips, they're using immense amounts of DRAM because, again, one HBM chip is using multiple, like, stacks of DRAM. So it's just getting slurped up, and then it takes a couple of years to ramp up new capacity. So these companies are gonna do that, but that could take a while. We saw that in New York, remember? That was that Micron plant that was- had just broken ground and then got shut down-

Jason Calacanis 1:08:47 Mm-hmm

David Sacks 1:08:48 ... the same day because of some crazy environmental issue. So it's not easy to ramp this stuff in the US, although Micron is the one provider that's in the US. SK Hynix in South Korea. Samsung's in South Korea, too. But anyway, we're gonna see, again, more of this AI-flation they're calling it. You know, it's just another reason I hate AI, is it is in this narrow area of consumer electronics where there's competition for DRAM. It is leading to price inflation now.

Gavin Baker 1:09:16 Microsoft raised the price of the Xbox. You know, it's coming for the Switch. It's coming for the PlayStation. You know, there's demand destruction 'cause the price is in consumer, whereas AI demand is relatively price insensitive. David, I would modify one statement.

David Sacks 1:09:29 Okay.

Gavin Baker 1:09:29 It's hard to build a Micron... It's hard to build a new fab in a deep blue state. You can build fabs-

David Sacks 1:09:36 Yeah. Why were they trying in New York? It's kind of crazy.

Gavin Baker 1:09:38 You know, New York gave them all these incentives, and... But it do- none of those incentives matter. It's a little bit like solar power. You can be as pro-environmental as you want, but if you can't build and install solar 'cause of regulations, it doesn't matter. So, you know, maybe that Micron plant ends up getting, you know, built in my home state of Texas.

Jason Calacanis 1:09:57 The incentive game has kind of flip-flopped. It's like it used to be the states were courting [laughs] the factories and the fabs. Now, it's the fabs are like, "Which state can actually build this? We'll pay you whatever you want. [laughs] Just tell us where to send the envelope. We'll, we'll, we'll drop a couple of envelopes off. It's not a problem."

David Sacks 1:10:15 Gavin, can you say how long it's

David Sacks 1:10:17 gonna take to stand up the fab at TeraFab?

Gavin Baker 1:10:23 Well, I mean, [laughs] if it was a normal fab, it would be a two, three, three and a half year process. But, you know, we, we, we've seen what Elon has done to other construction processes and, you know, he's starting with some, some advantages with the Intel partnership. So I don't think anyone knows, but based on past history, he's probably gonna stand up TeraFab faster than other fabs have been stood up. But it... What... This is really hard. It's really hard. It's the intersection of magic and science. You can't believe how complicated this is, so it's gonna be hard but, you know, he has a, he has a track record of doing, you know, what Jensen called impossible, superhuman. And so we'll see. We'll see how long it takes.

David Sacks 1:11:08 Okay. You know, one other, uh, point here that I guess is r- uh, might be relevant to SpaceX AI, although it's, don't have to limit it to this, is, um, I think there's an assumption that over time it would get cheaper and easier to stand up new data centers, right? But what you're saying is actually it might be getting harder. It might be getting more expensive, right? Because there's competition for these components. The memory's getting more expensive. I'm not sure that the GPUs are getting any cheaper. I guess some of these-

Jason Calacanis 1:11:35 The transformers, the switchgear

Gavin Baker 1:11:37 It's impossible

David Sacks 1:11:37 ... and the energy might be getting cheaper-

Jason Calacanis 1:11:39 It's impossible

David Sacks 1:11:39 ... and then the entitlements are getting harder, and the political situation is getting harder. There's very few places you can even stand up new data centers. So is it the case that actually it's gonna get more and more expensive to-

Gavin Baker 1:11:52 100%. So to stand up a one-gigawatt data center, it's $35 billion in semiconductors, NVIDIA semiconductors, and then it's $25 billion of power and cooling equipment. And that is clearly inflationary because a lot of that $25 billion is the human labor required to install it. So the calculation that needs to be done for orbital compute is it's 35 billion of silicon in each space and y- you know, in, in literally outer space, in orbit, and on ground, but if you can get the cost of launch significantly below that $25 billion, then the math starts to really math. And when Starship is reusable, it's gonna cost $5 billion to put a gigawatt of compute into space. It's something that drives me crazy is people Picture these Pentagon-sized da- data centers. No, it's racks in space linked with lasers. It's a, it's kind of a virtual data center in space.

Jason Calacanis 1:12:43 Wait, 5 billion, is that 5 billion of launch cost, or what it-

Gavin Baker 1:12:46 5 billion of launch cost. Now you're at 40 billion to put the gig into space. You're at 60 billion terrestrially, and the 25 billion that is power and compute is clearly inflationary. And so it may be that in three or four years it's 70 billion versus 40 billion, and that 5, as Starship becomes rapidly reusable, is likely deflationary. So this is the economics that underpin orbital compute from first principles. And then on an ongoing basis, you are, y- you're maybe paying a billion dollars a year for the power to run those chips and cool them.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:13:22 If I had to make a guess, I think what's gonna happen is that since 2021, about 40% of all data centers get contested, right? I think that number's gonna go up. So, Sacs, I suspect that whatever forecasted energy consumption that we are looking at in AI is grossly imbalanced. There is very, very meager supply, and there's effectively infinite demand. So that probably pulls forward the economic equation to wanna go to space. But then again, that's gonna prefer SpaceX and their compute stack and their compute decisions over the hyperscalers and over anybody else. And so you're gonna have a cost of an output token, I think terrestrially, particularly from the hyperscalers, be a little economically lopsided versus SpaceX once they get it to scale. Now, that's the key statement. Whatever's left on the ground, though, will be incredibly, incredibly valuable. It'll be a diamond. These are diamonds. And the thing is, you have to find reasonable size, right? You can't have a 10-kilowatt diamond. That's like a little pebble of [beep] . Nobody cares. But if you're in the reasonable hundreds of megawatts to gigawatts, man, those are like hope diamonds.

Jason Calacanis 1:14:39 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:14:39 Those are just lock 'em down.

Jason Calacanis 1:14:41 Which I own. [laughs]

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:14:44 [laughs]

Jason Calacanis 1:14:44 Uh, Travis, uh, there was a, uh, interesting trademark filed this week, so more in the investigator, uh, investor, uh, [laughs] investigator, uh, of the Tesla plus SpaceX marriage that, uh, everyone seems to believe is gonna happen, uh, shortly.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:15:02 No, you can, you can, you can say it, that s- You can give me credit for it.

Jason Calacanis 1:15:04 Of course, yes. Uh, a- as, as Chamath has architected in his, [laughs] uh, in his high perch. Uh, but this trademark came out from-

Gavin Baker 1:15:11 By the way, how cool would that be? How cool would it be for those two to come together?

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:15:15 It's gonna happen.

Jason Calacanis 1:15:16 Oh.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:15:16 It's gonna happen.

Jason Calacanis 1:15:17 Be amazing.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:15:17 And, uh, it'll be incredible, and, uh, if you're lucky enough to be an owner of both, oh my-

Jason Calacanis 1:15:23 Who's the top and who's the bottom?

Gavin Baker 1:15:24 Everybody can be an owner of both.

Jason Calacanis 1:15:25 Chamath is top. Who's the bottom?

Gavin Baker 1:15:25 Everybody, everybody can decide to be an owner of both.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:15:27 Jason, Jason, I'll be, I'll, I'll be making love to myself when this happens.

Jason Calacanis 1:15:31 Oh.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:15:31 There will be no other-

Jason Calacanis 1:15:32 So no different than any other Thursday [laughs]

Gavin Baker 1:15:35 Exactly. So just another day.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:15:36 I'll be on the, on the top and the bottom.

Jason Calacanis 1:15:37 You'll be the top and the bottom?

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:15:38 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 1:15:38 Just like any other Saturday night. [laughs]

Gavin Baker 1:15:41 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 1:15:41 Here's the [laughs] trademark from Megapod that came out. This is a, uh, filing date of 6/18/2026, so a very recent, June 18th. "Modular data center hardware for artificial intelligence computing comprised of network of computer servers, computer hardware for artificial intelligence processing, computer network hardware, electric power distribution units, and cooling systems sold as a unit. Self-contained modular computing, hardware systems for artificial intelligent workloads," yada, yada, yada. Essentially, uh, what-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:16:09 Well, just to, just to explain what this is-

Jason Calacanis 1:16:10 Well, yeah, let me-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:16:11 Just, just-

Jason Calacanis 1:16:11 Let me just, uh-

Gavin Baker 1:16:12 Yeah

Jason Calacanis 1:16:12 ... okay, so-

Gavin Baker 1:16:12 And by the way, that description makes... I don't know what it, I still don't know what it is.

Jason Calacanis 1:16:15 Essentially, what people are saying is this is going to be a giant battery pack with GPUs at the supercharger stations which have already been approved. That's the fact channel. Chamath, go ahead.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:16:26 You have a couple of issues right now to turn on compute terrestrially. So assume you have land. That's relatively straightforward. Assuming you can get it zoned, less straightforward. Assuming you can get power, very difficult. Then you have a very critical design decision. So all of these folks publish these things called the Basis of Design, and your, your BODs essentially tell you, "Here's the Anthropic spec, here's the OpenAI spec, here's the CoreWeave spec, here's the AWS spec, here's GCP," and you get these 50 and up to upwards of 500-page documents of all these technical details. The issue that we have is, I don't know if you guys have used OpenAI or Anthropic recently, where you get the whole thing of like, "Come back later," right?

Jason Calacanis 1:17:06 Yes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:17:06 That "come back later" is completely unacceptable. It just means that they have no compute. So in trying to find-

Gavin Baker 1:17:13 Surge pricing is coming.

Jason Calacanis 1:17:14 Yeah, let's go. [laughs]

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:17:16 So in trying to find the solution, what is happening is these Basis of Design, the restrictions, the specificity is being relaxed, and one of the key constraints is we've moved to an architectural model from Google and Nvidia that has said, "Look, we have to liquid cool these racks. These are very complicated, big girth supercomputer racks, essentially." And now we're also going back and saying, "You know what? Maybe some of these older stuff that's a little bit less proficient and a little bit less useful, but we can air cool them, is useful." And everybody's like, "Yeah, you know what? We should try to use everything that's available." In that second class, what some very smart people are doing are like, "Wow, well, here's a shipping container that you can just drop on a concrete pad somewhere, plug in the power, and let it rip." And so Jason, what you're seeing is that level of investment that's happening, so there are companies, you know, like Dell makes these racks, companies like Vertiv makes these modules, and I think if Tesla can make them available, folks like us, for my data center project, we would be enormous buyers of these things because we would just literally prefab them in a warehouse, right?

Jason Calacanis 1:18:27 Roll 'em out.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:18:27 Get the chips, pr- prefab 'em, truck 'em to the place, crane 'em in, turn it on, off to the races you go. You have like a 90-day build cycle, which is unheard of. So th- that's where these Megapods are coming from. I hope it's not entirely [laughs] consumed by Tesla and SpaceX internally. Well, that's the rumor, is that he's gonna put them at-

Travis Kalanick 1:18:49 The charging station

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:18:50 ... the supercharging network, where he has a lot of land-

Travis Kalanick 1:18:52 Well-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:18:52 ... and he's got power there already, and those are lightly used in some cases, you know? There are other requirements. The problem with some of these things is that you need to have certain levels of access, there are certain infosec requirements, there's certain liquid cooling requirements that make many of the workload applications unfeasible at a place like a supercharger center, where random bumble [beep] are, like, traipsing around.

Travis Kalanick 1:19:11 Security guard. [laughs] Put an Optimus.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:19:14 [laughs]

Travis Kalanick 1:19:14 Go, Travis.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:19:14 So guys, I've got, I've got 500 properties with lots of energy, lots of mechanical cooling systems, and lots of, uh, LNG access. Or sorry, not LNG. Uh, natural gas, sorry, already piped in. So on all the stuff I'm doing on robotics, AI, physical AI, we're literally looking at putting some of our compute-

Travis Kalanick 1:19:41 Wow

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:19:41 ... into our kitchens.

Travis Kalanick 1:19:43 Compute kitchens.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:19:44 You're gonna be able to buy small modular... Let's put data center in a quote.

Travis Kalanick 1:19:51 Yeah, but, but it doesn't, it doesn't matter. Like, I, I just go buy the GPUs, and I'll just, I just set it up in a kitchen, right?

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:19:58 It's, uh, it's not-

Travis Kalanick 1:19:59 It's like Bitcoin mining

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:20:00 ... it's not that... No, hold on. It's not that easy.

Travis Kalanick 1:20:01 You'll be like a Bitcoin miner.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:20:02 Like, no, no, no. Hold on, hold on, hold on. It's not that [beep] easy, okay? Like, if you guys-

Travis Kalanick 1:20:05 [laughs]

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:20:05 ... wanna build a cloud and contribute it to a pool, you're gonna have to sign up for liquidated damages, and you're not gonna sign up to these SLAs.

Travis Kalanick 1:20:12 Guys, I'm not, I'm not a hyperscaler. I'm just using it for myself.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:20:15 Yeah.

Travis Kalanick 1:20:16 Rack and stack it.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:20:16 Oh, okay. Sure. You can use it-

Travis Kalanick 1:20:18 Yeah

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:20:18 ... for yourself. I'm saying-

Travis Kalanick 1:20:19 Yeah

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:20:19 ... the more interesting opportunity is when-

Travis Kalanick 1:20:21 [laughs] Whatever Travis says, let's talk about the interesting stuff.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:20:24 [laughs] No, no, I'm just saying, like, wh- what I thought you were going with this, Travis-

Travis Kalanick 1:20:28 Yeah

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:20:28 ... is, like, you could build a synthetic pool and contribute it to-

Travis Kalanick 1:20:31 You can. Sure

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:20:32 ... a neoscaler. And all I'm saying is-

Travis Kalanick 1:20:33 Sure

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:20:34 ... to do that is a leap of things that you'd have to do that you probably don't wanna do, 'cause it veers you away from what you're good at.

Travis Kalanick 1:20:40 The security, I think the security thing is the main issue around non-data center type real estate, to be honest. It's the big one. Look, you, you gotta do liquid cooling, you gotta do mechanical systems for air cooling. Uh, you have energy. Like, there's a lot of things you gotta do. But assuming you even had all that, the architecture of a data center is set up, like, they have man traps, right? Where you go into a room, the door closes behind you, that you got into with your fingerprint. Then you go into the next part of it, again, with your fingerprint, only when that door closes. Like, you know.

Gavin Baker 1:21:13 Well, just out of genuine curiosity, how much does one of those man traps cost? Like, why can't you put some of those in your-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:21:18 Yeah, maybe you could.

Travis Kalanick 1:21:19 Are you interested in putting in a man trap, Chamath?

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:21:20 I'm just trying to help-

Travis Kalanick 1:21:21 Trap some men. [laughs]

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:21:23 I'll try to interpret where Chamath's going a little bit, is, like, a Megapod that's sitting at a char- like, a public charging situation. Because of the physical access of it, like, there's probably some stuff you've gotta do if you're going to resell it. But if you're gonna use it for yourself, you can use it for yourself. The real value, I think, in the Travis example, which I find super exciting, is if you can contribute it to a distributed training pool or a distributed inference pool that has a lower SLA, which is more of how this community-based oriented work. Jason, I think you've talked about BitTensor. I think Venice is a project. I think Pluralys is another project. Travis, that's where I think it's super exciting.

Travis Kalanick 1:22:03 Right.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:22:03 Where-

Travis Kalanick 1:22:03 But, but the one thing I'll just throw out there, guys, the distributed training stuff, if these things are far away from each other, meaning not right next to each other, they're so less efficient. Like, the efficiency drops dramatically. You want these things to be right next to each other physically. You get, like, multiple orders of mag- at least an order of magnitude type efficiency, maybe plus, plus, plus. I'd, like... It, it's a big deal.

Gavin Baker 1:22:29 Yeah. [laughs]

Travis Kalanick 1:22:30 So, like, you could have two... We have two raw facilities-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:22:32 Yes

Travis Kalanick 1:22:32 ... that are, like, two kilometers-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:22:32 Passing the jobs from one GPU to the other is super important, and if it's on a peer-to-peer network, it's gonna have lag, it's gonna take more time.

Travis Kalanick 1:22:40 Honestly, guys-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:22:40 Yeah

Travis Kalanick 1:22:40 ... even if it's on your own fiber connected, like, two kilometers away, you're screwed. It's not a thing.

Gavin Baker 1:22:47 This is 100% true, but everything that cuts against training works for inference, where lat-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:22:55 Respect. Respect

Gavin Baker 1:22:56 ... where latency is super important. And I do think, you know, a distributed inference, distributed inference clouds-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:23:03 Yes

Gavin Baker 1:23:03 ... are coming.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:23:04 Yes, I get that. That's fair.

Gavin Baker 1:23:05 And to riff, and to riff on, like, what Chamath said in all of this, like, one, I mean, there is actually a startup that is trying to put four GPU units with kind of a battery on people's houses and give them a discount on their power, and then you can do inference for that neighborhood, you know, from those four GPUs, and it's, like, lock-sealed so nobody can get in. But there's, there's another dynamic that I think we should talk about with all of this, and could play into the Megapods, and, you know, other people are kind of working on data centers. You know, Crusoe is working on, you know, modularly assembling data centers. You know, kind of like a data center, and think of it as, like, an 18-wheeler. Um, what do you call those things, the 18-wheeler? You know, c- shipping container. Whatever it is. Um, but that is the disaggregation of inference into prefill and decode. When you, when a model is answering your question, it's doing two things. The prefill part is understanding the question and its answer thus far. And think of, think of that as the more you can remember, the bigger your, you know, your memory capacity. Literally, the more words you can remember, the better. Decode is the process of generating the next token, and that is a memory bandwidth bound problem, and think of it as the faster you can speak, the better. And these two types of inference are increasingly being disaggregated, and Chamath was an investor in Groq, which Nvidia bought, and they're gonna use this. Cerebras is the other solution today that is available, and you can put Groq or Cerebras decode- You know, optimized chips. They both say you can do more of the decode on them, and that's true, in front of old Nvidia GPUs, like H100s. So you can, you can lift H100s, A100s out of some old data center, put them in one of these mega co- mega pods, a, you know, a rack in a shipping container, put a Groq or a Cerebras in front of it, and you can get a very competitive solution. And so I do think the disaggregation of inference, we're gonna be using GPUs for seven years, 10 years, 12 years, and that's great 'cause it lowers the cost to finance them, which makes this AI revolution more financeable. Chamath, do you wanna riff on, on Groq? Should we, should we, should we-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:25:21 I really agree with everything. You're incredibly well steeped in the space. It's so exciting. I don't have any investments or anything in the distributed compute space, but at the intersection of competing against China, having a vibrant American open source community, having a bunch of distributed models for purposes of free speech and otherwise, that Travis mentioned earlier, I do think this idea of distributed inference has a real place in the American ecosystem. I don't exactly know where and how and how homeowners would get paid, but whoever figures that out as a Pan-American idea, I think is, uh, is, is really onto something.

Gavin Baker 1:25:56 It'd be awesome.

Jason Calacanis 1:25:56 And yes, Travis, obviously slower, but people are contributing compute to this that's, like, kind of surplus compute or, or compute-

Gavin Baker 1:26:03 Yeah

Jason Calacanis 1:26:03 ... that's available. And they earn tokens-

Gavin Baker 1:26:05 Recycling unused compute.

Jason Calacanis 1:26:06 Exactly.

Gavin Baker 1:26:06 Recycling unused compute. Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 1:26:08 Uh, and then there's Targon, which is just straight up people are putting... And you can rent H200s by the hour for three bucks, four bucks, and it's permissionless. Anybody can contribute provided, a- and this is kind of the magic of Bittensor is there are validators that make sure you're putting in what you say you're putting into the network. And so if somebody just had the hardware and Tesla said, "From now on, every Powerwall," and I, I, I don't put it past him to do this, "You buy a Powerwall, we give you a discount on it. Every Powerwall has our GPUs in it. Part of the offering is you can't buy a Powerwall without putting GPUs in it. And when you're not using it, we will pay you for your battery." And you put a Starlink on your roof, and now you've got a distributed system where you get a couple of g- of these, um, Powerwalls with their own silicon in it and a Starlink, and now Elon's created an infinite number of home battery backup systems.

Gavin Baker 1:27:04 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 1:27:04 People get their battery system for free. He gets the exclusive use-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:27:08 Do you guys see that-

Jason Calacanis 1:27:08 ... for 20 years.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:27:09 You guys see that there's a rumor that Elon's gonna buy T-Mobile?

Jason Calacanis 1:27:12 Whoa.

Gavin Baker 1:27:14 By the way, we should, just 'cause Cerebras, Cerebras has blown up and gone through deal price, we should talk about Cerebras a little.

Jason Calacanis 1:27:20 So, uh, Cerebras had an incredible

Jason Calacanis 1:27:22 IPO. Give us an update on where these IPOs are happening. Obviously, SpaceX had an incredible IPO, but has retreated from this, you know, otherworldly $200 share price. So, so to the extent you can talk about these two, as well as the two IPOs to come, $4 trillion in backlog. We've obviously got OpenAI and Claude, I'm sorry, Anthropic, which makes Claude. Both of those will be worth a billy plus. You put all this together, $4 trillion of new offerings plus Cerebras in there in the mix. How does the market manage this much new inventory being put on the market? Obviously, the flow to SpaceX is notably small, but over time, people like yourselves and, and other insiders, uh, Founders Fund, et cetera, will be unlocked, uh, and have the ability to distribute to their LPs. So this is gonna be a moving target, I think, on terms of share price, and can the market absorb this? Where does the money come from? Retail, or does it come from people selling their Bitcoin and moving it over to something more exciting? What's the dynamic here in the market? I know we're in uncharted territory, Gavin.

Gavin Baker 1:28:21 Well, well, for sure. There's no precedent for any of this. But a few things I would say, like, just in no particular order. I think Anthropic is worth $3 trillion today, and it's very important-

Jason Calacanis 1:28:30 I'm sorry. Did you say Anthropic is worth $3 trillion?

Gavin Baker 1:28:33 Yeah, I think that is roughly where it would probably trade as a public company. And-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:28:39 [whistles] Wow.

Gavin Baker 1:28:40 Yeah, Anthropic-

Jason Calacanis 1:28:40 What?

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:28:40 Whoa.

Gavin Baker 1:28:41 I mean, look, they're gonna do... They're gonna end this year well-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:28:44 Oh, man

Gavin Baker 1:28:45 ... they're gonna end this year well over $100 billion. So what-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:28:49 Holy [beep] . [laughs]

Gavin Baker 1:28:50 What, what's the '28 number?

Jason Calacanis 1:28:51 $3 trillion. [laughs]

Gavin Baker 1:28:51 What's the '28 number? Is it 200? Is it $300 billion? It's probably not gonna trade at 10 times that number, and it will be very profitable at that scale because it'll be inference dominated and people are reporting they have 85% gross margins on inference. B- but in terms of the market absorbing this, like, the market's already absorbed it. You know? It's, it's just shifting from private to public. And so in the scale of global capital markets, these seem like really big numbers, but you're just moving from the private markets to the public markets, which are even bigger. As far as SpaceX specifically, I think one of the more important things, um, is everybody who's a SpaceX investor or employee has had a chance to sell every six months for the last 10 years, so they not, may not be the wall of liquidity that some people are thinking about. I read this New York hedge fund short, short report that you could just short SpaceX on the lockup 'cause so many people are gonna sell. Really? Well, everybody who's on the cap table, they had an opportunity to sell, and mo- almost half the employees at SpaceX bought on the IPO. Now, I do think Cerebras-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:30:01 But, uh, Gavin, one thing, though, I gotta say, so I, I, I've had SpaceX since 2018. What, what. But-

Gavin Baker 1:30:07 Yes

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:30:09 ... their little, their little liquidity thing every year, like last year it was like 350, $350 billion last year. So you got an 8X in one year. You could have a lot of people selling, right?

Gavin Baker 1:30:21 For sure.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:30:21 They were doing little 20% up, 30% up clips for many years, and then an 8Xer could create that liquidity.

Gavin Baker 1:30:30 Maybe, but we'll see. That's possible. But the employees are buying at the new price, and they're probably the, you know, at some level, one of the biggest pools of, you know, ownership that's gonna unlock.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:30:43 Yeah

Gavin Baker 1:30:44 And then, you know, I do think a lot of people probably own SpaceX through SPVs, and those probably don't unlock or get distributed anytime soon. So I'd just, you know, I would be careful with assuming. I don't think Elon's a seller of his-

Travis Kalanick 1:30:58 Yeah

Gavin Baker 1:30:58 ... fifty-

Travis Kalanick 1:30:58 No, he's definitely not, obviously. Yeah.

Gavin Baker 1:31:00 So-

Travis Kalanick 1:31:01 And a lot of us, and a lot of us aren't sellers, you know-

Gavin Baker 1:31:03 Absolutely

Travis Kalanick 1:31:03 ... and that's great. Yeah.

Gavin Baker 1:31:04 Yeah. I mean, a lot of people who had large SpaceX positions were large buyers on the IPO. On Cerebras, so Cerebras has had a, a tough two days since they reported their first quarter as a public company, and I think there, there, there are two things that are very... that are worth discussing here. One is there is a whole generation of portfolio managers. There's a lot of people who are advocating for kinda squeezing the blood out of the stone on IPO prices, and the flip side of that is that there are a lot of portfolio managers who if a stock breaks deal price, they sell it no matter what. They consider it a promise that was broken. And so this is what has happened with Cerebras to some degree over the last two days. And, you know, this may seem irrational, but there are people who run giant funds, who I know personally, where if a stock breaks deal price, they sell no matter what. And so if a stock breaks deal price, it m- can sometimes, you know, go to places you wouldn't think it would go, and this means that shorts, if a stock gets close to deal price, they short it 'cause they wanna break deal price and then, you know, they make a quick 10 or 20%.

Jason Calacanis 1:32:22 So it becomes a pile on.

Gavin Baker 1:32:23 Because you have this price-insensitive selling that can be triggered.

Jason Calacanis 1:32:27 Right.

Gavin Baker 1:32:27 And this is what has happened to Cerebras. You know, people talk about hate sale- hate selling, but they broke deal price, and so just if you're going public and you're listening to this, tell your bankers, "Price this in such a way that we're not gonna break deal price in our first nine months as a public company." And that's what I always advise everyone to do, and I think it's important. But I also think, you know, it takes companies a while to learn how to tell their story and communicate to, to public markets. It's a very different audience than VCs. And the way, like the way I would've respectfully told the Cerebras story, 'cause what happened to Cerebras is they reported a quarter and re- and they're growing fast, but relative to the rest of AI, they're not growing that fast in the March quarter. So what I would've said is, "We signed this transformational, you know, $20 billion, $25 billion," I don't know the exact number, "contract with OpenAI in December, December of 2025. We immediately ordered more wafers from Taiwan Semi. It takes 100... It takes four months from when we make that order, Taiwan Semi f- you know, says, 'Yes,' they start producing. Takes four months to make the chip. Then we... Then it takes us two months, plus or minus, to turn that chip into a server. And then if we're lucky and we can find the power, it takes us a month to energize that chip and start making tokens with it. So the first time you're going to see the impact of this OpenAI deal at the earliest is probably around Labor Day. So you'll see a little bit of it in the, in the third quarter. But then it really, it starts to build." And just, like, really simple math. So, like, let's just use some rough numbers. Let's say let's take some Nvidia numbers. It takes them $35 billion to bring on a gigawatt, and $15 billion... that you can generate $15 billion in token revenue, in cloud revenue out of that gigawatt. And somebody on the call talked about adding 50 megawatts a month. If they could add 50 megawatts a month in 2027, forget '26, that means they exit the year at roughly a $9 billion cloud computing run rate, and, you know, we're at, we're at less than $40 billion of market cap. Now, that is gonna be really hard to do, and they've never done anything like that before. And but I would've... I would, I would focus, like as an investor, I think what matters here is not where they sit competitively, not what new demand they can bring on, but just how quickly can they bring on power. And listen, like, outside of the hyperscalers, the only companies that have ever brought on more than a gigawatt I think are CoreWeave, um, Crusoe, um, and, and, and SpaceX AI. So bringing on 600 megawatts, it's really hard, and that is what, like, I'm focused on as an investor. How many megawatts can they bring on? 'Cause we know what they're gonna monetize at, and that is the question, and we'll see.

Travis Kalanick 1:35:37 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 1:35:37 And-

Travis Kalanick 1:35:37 I think that's well said.

Jason Calacanis 1:35:38 Yeah. And, uh, the other companies that have had this happen of late, I guess Rivian and famously Chamath, Facebook traded below IPO price in the first year, I think. And so this isn't necessarily mean a bad company. It just means a lot of hype or maybe going for it in the IPO and pricing it to perfection and, and it can go one of two ways. You can either grossly underprice, grossly overprice, and it's really hard to get right, and this is why doing auctions-

Gavin Baker 1:36:06 It's-

Jason Calacanis 1:36:06 ... for, you know-

Travis Kalanick 1:36:07 Yeah, auctions are the way. Auctions are the way. And so it's not hard to price if you just do it the way it's supposed to be done. It's hard to price when you're... when you, uh, want it to be a certain number.

Jason Calacanis 1:36:19 Yeah, and you have many mouths to feed, and that-

Gavin Baker 1:36:21 In all fairness-

Jason Calacanis 1:36:22 ... influences the price

Gavin Baker 1:36:23 ... I don't think that happened here. I think there was a good faith effort to, to price this thoughtfully, but just, you know, there was... it was such an in-demand IPO. I think it was a hard IPO to price.

Jason Calacanis 1:36:35 Uh, all right. Let's end on-

Travis Kalanick 1:36:37 Yeah, but you just auction it. Gavin, you just auction it. I think that's different than underwriting it. You're underwriting, but the bankers, like, I think they just need to get more in the mode of just doing the auction, you know?

Jason Calacanis 1:36:48 Yeah. Final topic was this, uh, $3 trillion Or actually, now it's your $3 trillion [laughs] call on Anthropic would make it, like, 6 trillion in offerings. What do we think broadly in the market-

Gavin Baker 1:37:04 And it's not in offerings because it's, they're gonna offer a small slice of that.

Jason Calacanis 1:37:08 Sure.

Gavin Baker 1:37:08 And that small slice is very ego- easy to absorb in the context... I believe, we have no precedent, we'll see, I might be wrong, but it's not hard for global capital markets to absorb-

Jason Calacanis 1:37:19 Yes

Gavin Baker 1:37:19 ... 50 billion of an offering. It's not like, it's not like somebody has to come up-

Jason Calacanis 1:37:24 Yeah, it's a 5% load-

Gavin Baker 1:37:26 ... with billion dollars to buy SpaceX

Jason Calacanis 1:37:26 ... is 150 billion, there's enough.

Gavin Baker 1:37:28 Yeah.

Travis Kalanick 1:37:28 Guys, remember, remember when 15 billion used to be a whole lot of money?

Jason Calacanis 1:37:32 [laughs] Yeah.

Gavin Baker 1:37:33 Yeah.

Travis Kalanick 1:37:33 How weird is... What's going on? How weird is this?

Gavin Baker 1:37:35 By the way, Travis-

Travis Kalanick 1:37:36 It's crazy

Jason Calacanis 1:37:36 Where is all this money coming from? [laughs] Oh, yeah, where was it all this time?

Gavin Baker 1:37:40 Can we just, can, can, can we just reminisce, man? We got-

Travis Kalanick 1:37:42 Yeah

Gavin Baker 1:37:42 ... my, when I was at Fidelity, my-

Travis Kalanick 1:37:45 Yeah

Gavin Baker 1:37:45 ... my colleagues and I, we got pilloried. I think we priced Uber at 14 billion-

Travis Kalanick 1:37:52 Yeah

Gavin Baker 1:37:52 ... and we got pilloried in the press for not knowing what we were doing, and it was seen as, you know... And then of course, like, six months later, I think you guys did a round at what, like, 42 billion or something. But it's like, yeah, 14 billion, that was groundbreaking for a private company back then.

Travis Kalanick 1:38:06 Yeah, for sure. It was 17, but that, you know, no one's counting.

Gavin Baker 1:38:09 That was counting. 17, no. [laughs]

Travis Kalanick 1:38:10 Um-

Gavin Baker 1:38:11 You're right. I wanted 14-

Travis Kalanick 1:38:13 Yeah

Gavin Baker 1:38:13 ... and we had, like, a big negotiation. [laughs]

Travis Kalanick 1:38:15 And we ran, we ran an auction. No, we just ran an auction.

Gavin Baker 1:38:18 Yeah, you wanted 20, and maybe we landed at 17. Yeah.

Travis Kalanick 1:38:22 What we did, what we did was every person who wanted to be involved had to fill out a sheet of how much money they put it at 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, all the way up to 20, and then we just did the Dutch auction. We said we want a clear one and a half bill. We just did the auction and cleared it. Went back to people and said, "Hey, you're not gonna get it. You have another shot." They update their Excel sheet, and it just moves the number up a little bit, and then you, you, you close it down. But yeah, it started, that round started at, I think it was 9 or 10 or something like that. Ended up at 17.

Jason Calacanis 1:39:01 Thank you for your service. [laughs]

Travis Kalanick 1:39:02 But yes, it used to be, it used to be that that was a lot of money.

Gavin Baker 1:39:05 Yeah.

Travis Kalanick 1:39:05 And that was unheard of at the time. And that was, well, look, it was 10 years ago when we used to walk to school uphill both ways. [laughs]

Jason Calacanis 1:39:12 Yes. We used to have to... Yeah, we used to eat potatoes with no butter, just hot potatoes.

Travis Kalanick 1:39:18 [laughs] I love that one.

Jason Calacanis 1:39:18 Sometimes we were lucky that they were cooked.

Travis Kalanick 1:39:20 I love that.

Jason Calacanis 1:39:20 Sometimes they were raw.

Travis Kalanick 1:39:22 That's true.

Jason Calacanis 1:39:22 No, my dad would tell me that story. [laughs] It's a famous John DeBeers story. He'd say his mom would put, like, four, um, four potatoes in the oven. They'd wrap them in tinfoil, one in each pocket, 'cause they couldn't afford gloves. So you put your hands in your pocket with the hot potatoes. You get to school, you eat one for breakfast, one for lunch, him and his sister, uh, Johanna, God rest her soul, my aunt who died too young. And they would just go eat these potatoes. That was their life, uh, walking to school.

Travis Kalanick 1:39:49 [laughs]

Jason Calacanis 1:39:49 Yeah. And our kids are trying to-

Travis Kalanick 1:39:52 Uphill both ways.

Jason Calacanis 1:39:53 Yeah, they're trying to get the new iPhone 16 or 17, I don't know.

Travis Kalanick 1:39:55 Remember when, remember when it used to be hard to raise $5 billion?

Jason Calacanis 1:39:59 Oh, my Lord.

Travis Kalanick 1:40:00 It's just crazy.

Jason Calacanis 1:40:00 Remember when it was hard to-

Travis Kalanick 1:40:01 I just, it's just crazy

Jason Calacanis 1:40:02 ... remember when it was hard to raise 1.5 million? [laughs]

Travis Kalanick 1:40:04 Dude, I remember, I, yeah, I remember when it was hard to raise... Anyways, we don't have to do this. It's okay. We already sound like grandpas. It's fine.

Jason Calacanis 1:40:11 [laughs] We do sound like uncs.

Travis Kalanick 1:40:12 Let's move on.

Jason Calacanis 1:40:12 It was so hard-

Travis Kalanick 1:40:13 Let's move on

Jason Calacanis 1:40:13 ... to raise that first 1.5. [laughs]

Travis Kalanick 1:40:16 Dude, I, it's just, we don't need to go there. It's so funny though.

Gavin Baker 1:40:19 I hate being-

Jason Calacanis 1:40:19 What's with this art piece, Gavin, behind you? Is that, like, an art piece or you made it?

Gavin Baker 1:40:24 Yeah. No. [laughs] This is, I'm staying at a rented house in Atherton.

Jason Calacanis 1:40:28 Oh, okay. There you go. It's just a, uh, Airbnb art. All right, everybody, for The Dictator, [sighs] Chamath Palihapitiya, and for David Sacks, TK, GB-

Gavin Baker 1:40:39 Yeah

Jason Calacanis 1:40:39 ... we'll see you next time on The All-In Podcast.

Travis Kalanick 1:40:41 Good times.

Jason Calacanis 1:40:41 Bye-bye.

Travis Kalanick 1:40:41 All right.

Jason Calacanis 1:40:41 Great job, everybody. [upbeat music]

Travis Kalanick 1:40:44 We'll let your winners ride.

Jason Calacanis 1:40:47 Rain man David Sacks.

Gavin Baker 1:40:51 And it said, we open source it to the fans, and they've just gone crazy with it.

Jason Calacanis 1:40:55 Love you, bestie. Ice Queen of Kin Wong. Besties are back.

Travis Kalanick 1:41:05 Oh. [laughs] That's my, uh, dog taking a piss in your driveway, Sacks. [laughs]

Jason Calacanis 1:41:09 Wait, no, no, it's-

Travis Kalanick 1:41:12 Oh, man.

Gavin Baker 1:41:13 My haberdasher will meet me at Winston's.

Jason Calacanis 1:41:14 We should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy, 'cause they're all just useless. It's like this, like, sexual tension that they just need to release somehow. Wet your the feet. Wet your feet.

Travis Kalanick 1:41:25 Wet your feet. Wet-

Jason Calacanis 1:41:27 [laughs] We need to get merch. Besties are back. [upbeat music]

David Friedberg 1:41:29 I'm going all in. I'm going all in