Sriram Kalyanaraman| "What job would you do if you were not paid any money to do it?"| Ep. 21

1. 0:00 – 1:05

   Introduction

   1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman0:00

      What job would you do if you were not paid any money? Abundance comes by giving, not hoarding, uh, because when we give, we also realize how much actually we do have.

   2. AMAmrutash Misra0:10

      Nobody is really self-made. Everybody has had help from other people.

   3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman0:14

      Life is a journey of eternal humbling. [upbeat music]

   4. AMAmrutash Misra0:30

      Hi, my name is Amrut. We've heard that IIT Madras is the best place to build. [upbeat music] So we've come down to the Sudha and Shankar Innovation Hub. We want to meet some people. These are builders. We want to talk to them about their work and also ask them: What makes IIT Madras the best place to build? [upbeat music] Hi, welcome to the Best Place to Build podcast.

2. 1:05 – 2:43

   Meet Sriram: A Journey of Contrarian Decisions

   1. AMAmrutash Misra1:05

      I'm Amrut. I'm sitting with Sriram, a friend of mine from twenty more, more than twenty years, also known as KK. He was a student here at IIT Madras from two thousand and three to 'seven, Computer Science batch. Joined McKinsey, which was, at the time, the top job off campus, uh, and later, uh, studied again at the Kennedy School for Government at Harvard. Today, runs the Amaidhi School for Transformation. Welcome, Sriram.

   2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:29

      Thank you. Thank you for having me here.

   3. AMAmrutash Misra1:33

      Lots to cover.

   4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:34

      Yeah.

   5. AMAmrutash Misra1:35

      Um-

   6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:36

      May I-- Actually, may I begin with a question?

   7. AMAmrutash Misra1:39

      Okay.

   8. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:39

      When you asked me to come to this podcast, honestly, the first question that came up was: Why is he asking me to be on this podcast? Because this is about best place to build, and I've usually thought of building and this podcast, uh, to be about entrepreneurship.

   9. AMAmrutash Misra2:00

      Mm.

   10. SKSriram Kalyanaraman2:00

       So why did you ask me to be here?

   11. AMAmrutash Misra2:02

       Fair enough. I mean, when you hear the word build, uh, people think of bridges, cars, robots, and maybe today, AI foundational models. Uh, but we have been trying to, uh, promote this idea that the word build is a little more broad-based. Uh, we do talk about building ourselves, building our network, our resilience, our, um, uh, our mindsets, our attitudes, and I think your work in that area has been quite significant. Um, yeah, is that a satisfactory answer?

   12. SKSriram Kalyanaraman2:35

       Yeah, yeah, it is, it is.

   13. AMAmrutash Misra2:37

       Um-

   14. SKSriram Kalyanaraman2:38

       It is.

   15. AMAmrutash Misra2:38

       I feel like we should start with this. Um, you were at, uh, IIT Madras,

3. 2:43 – 4:33

   Defying Expectations: The Path Less Taken

   1. AMAmrutash Misra2:43

      uh, Computer Science, and later at McKinsey, and later at, uh, Kennedy School of Government. All these places, people who walk through them, there are some expectations that you will come out and do something, and you've almost always defied the expectations. Contrarian decisions. So I want to ask you, um, doesn't that take a lot of confidence, uh, and aren't you taking a lot of risks? Like, how did you get through the decisions where three times in your life you've taken a very different decision than what people would have expected you to?

   2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman3:15

      Yeah, you're right. It, it takes some level of knowing oneself and being curious about, uh, what it is that, uh, I want at each stage. Uh, I remember when I got into IIT, the vision was very clear in my head: Uh, go to the US, do a master's, work somewhere for two years, do an MBA, and become a CEO by thirty-five. And-

   3. AMAmrutash Misra3:39

      Also, for additional context, your brother was also in IIT Madras.

   4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman3:41

      He was, he was.

   5. AMAmrutash Misra3:42

      And your rank was fifty-one.

   6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman3:44

      Yeah.

   7. AMAmrutash Misra3:45

      Yeah.

   8. SKSriram Kalyanaraman3:45

      It was, it was. His rank was twenty-two.

   9. AMAmrutash Misra3:48

      Is it? [laughing]

   10. SKSriram Kalyanaraman3:50

       Yeah. [laughing]

   11. AMAmrutash Misra3:51

       That's amazing. Okay.

   12. SKSriram Kalyanaraman3:52

       So, um, I always had this image coming into IIT that I'd go down the tech path, and then go into management, and then become a CEO. Um, and yes, you're right. I... Actually, this morning when you pointed out the pattern to me is when it became clear in that kind of language, which is each of these places has a set path, and I've done almost exactly the opposite. I suppose the work that I've been doing, and I am doing right now, has been calling me. It's been calling me from within for a long time, and, uh, each place was just another, uh, test bed

4. 4:33 – 6:38

   Inner Transformation: Discovering True Potential

   1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman4:33

      to discover and convince myself that this is actually what I really want to do, which is help people through the work of inner development and self-transformation.

   2. AMAmrutash Misra4:44

      Can we take a pause there? Can you just explain to us the work you do now so that everybody has context?

   3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman4:49

      Sure. So the work I do, uh, today is, uh, you could call it inner transformation. It is helping an individual find their true self, find their full potential, and then, as one of our alums, Deepak Jayaraman says, "Play to that potential." Um, it's, it's about understanding what comes in the way of me pursuing my dreams. Uh, often, for some people, it's something to do with the mind. Either we are anxious, busy, stressed, uh, undecided, lot of self-doubt, and that comes in the way of taking a big decision and taking that leap forward. For some people, it's an interpersonal challenge. Uh, I wanna be a leader, I want to work with many people, but I get triggered, or I struggle to inspire people or motivate people. Uh, and for... So the challenges may be quite diverse and widespread. The core is helping a person and understand what the challenges in the way of that are, and how do I overcome those challenges? Uh, how do I play to my full potential? That's the core work.... it obviously has application in the corporate world, where I work with founders, CEOs, leaders of companies. Also in the student community, because students are struggling with, uh, mental health challenges, a lot of pressure of expectation-

   4. AMAmrutash Misra6:20

      Yeah.

   5. SKSriram Kalyanaraman6:20

      - like you mentioned. Uh, and then in outside of all of this, in relationships, uh, if I want to make a career shift, uh, has wide application. So that's the work that I do today.

   6. AMAmrutash Misra6:32

      Okay. All of this broadly under the idea of inner transformation, so building yourself

5. 6:38 – 7:26

   Understanding Inner Healing

   1. AMAmrutash Misra6:38

      and-

   2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman6:38

      Yeah.

   3. AMAmrutash Misra6:38

      Stuff like that.

   4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman6:39

      I'd say inner healing and inner transformation.

   5. AMAmrutash Misra6:42

      Okay.

   6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman6:42

      And by the word 'healing', we're simply saying there are some things that have happened to me in my past, the weight, the burden of which I still carry somewhere within me, and how do I let go of that? How do I heal that? Just like if you had a wound on the skin, and over time, the skin binds itself and heals and becomes whole again. Same thing with the personality. You go through a difficult moment in your life, something happens, there's a tear, a fracture line in your personality. How do we help that become whole and heal again? And then how do we move into transformation?

   7. AMAmrutash Misra7:17

      Nice. So cool. So you were saying that ... [chuckles] So we were talking about contrarian decisions-

   8. SKSriram Kalyanaraman7:24

      Mm.

   9. AMAmrutash Misra7:24

      - about how you go to a place

6. 7:26 – 10:05

   The Pressure of Expectations

   1. AMAmrutash Misra7:26

      ...

   2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman7:26

      Yeah.

   3. AMAmrutash Misra7:27

      And especially, I think, when people enter IIT, because IIT was, IITs were set up for nation transformation by Nehru, and then you walk in and you're, like, almost given this burden that, "Okay, now you're going to change the world. You're going to change your community or your family and, uh, build the nation," and so on. So there's, there's, like, there's, like, a expectation right from the beginning, right?

   4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman7:48

      Mm.

   5. AMAmrutash Misra7:49

      And I guess, um, what does it take to make those contrarian decisions, saying that, "You know what? This- I'm not gonna take this path, but I'm gonna find myself here, take a different path?"

   6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman8:00

      Mm. I'd say two things. The first is shifting attention from being entirely focused on the outer world to inward attention. Being curious about: What gives me joy? What makes me excited? As one of my mentors, he asks a question: "What job would you do if you were not paid any money-

   7. AMAmrutash Misra8:22

      Mm

   8. SKSriram Kalyanaraman8:22

      ... to do it?" So, uh, looking for what energizes you from inside, so that it's not just something on the outside that's motivating me. That's one aspect, shifting from outward attention to inward. And the second is the supportive ecosystem that this shift is happening in. Uh, in my case, parents, long before the JEE, had given me the permission and license to say, uh, "Yeah, you seem to be doing well. You seem to be focused on your academic efforts," which was important to them. And once that became clear, uh, they stepped back and gave me the space to discover what I wanted to do, and they've always supported, uh, elder brother included, uh, always supported what I've wanted to do. So I'd say those two: support and inward attention.

   9. AMAmrutash Misra9:14

      Sure. As you're saying it, I feel like, uh, sometimes I've interacted with students now, and, uh, first of all, there's a lot of peer pressure. Uh, I- and a lot of students come through the JEE coaching system, so the pressure actually starts-

   10. SKSriram Kalyanaraman9:28

       Much earlier

   11. AMAmrutash Misra9:28

       ... two, three, four years earlier. Uh, and, uh, uh, even within campus, I've heard students talk about how they're under pressure from their parents to get a more paying job. Uh, of course, the pay- paid, uh, variations with on campus are quite high.

   12. SKSriram Kalyanaraman9:45

       Mm.

   13. AMAmrutash Misra9:45

       Like, somebody may get a one crore offer, somebody may get a 20 lakh offer, somebody may get a, a, a, or somebody joining a start-up is probably making much lesser in, in promise of future gain, but whatever it is, at that time. So, um, yeah, a lot of depression on campus.

   14. SKSriram Kalyanaraman10:02

       Yeah.

   15. AMAmrutash Misra10:02

       So I really relate with what you're saying. Um, in this

7. 10:05 – 14:49

   The story behind the Happiness, Habits and Success course

   1. AMAmrutash Misra10:05

      regard, I think y- you've done a lot of work with your colleagues, uh, on this course called Happiness, Success and Habits.

   2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman10:12

      Yeah.

   3. AMAmrutash Misra10:12

      Is that what it's called?

   4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman10:13

      Happiness, Habits and Success.

   5. AMAmrutash Misra10:15

      Okay. Can you tell us what it is?

   6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman10:17

      Yeah. And, uh, before we come to the course, uh, I, I wanna expand on what you just said. The, uh, pressure, the pressure of ... And we were speaking about it earlier, uh, this twofold pressure that students go through, which is before the final competitive exams that move students from 12th standard to college, the pressure of rank. Uh-

   7. AMAmrutash Misra10:41

      Mm

   8. SKSriram Kalyanaraman10:41

      ... having a great rank, making the cutoff.

   9. AMAmrutash Misra10:43

      Yeah.

   10. SKSriram Kalyanaraman10:44

       It's a huge pressure. I can even feel it on my shoulders building up-

   11. AMAmrutash Misra10:47

       Yeah

   12. SKSriram Kalyanaraman10:48

       ... as I speak about it.

   13. AMAmrutash Misra10:49

       Right.

   14. SKSriram Kalyanaraman10:49

       And then once you cross, and you've successfully crossed that milestone, it becomes the pressure of pay.

   15. AMAmrutash Misra10:56

       Yeah.

   16. SKSriram Kalyanaraman10:56

       Uh, and so well-intentioned by parents. Uh, we want our children to succeed, to thrive, to be taken care of. Uh, we've come from the worldview that money is significant, and it is significant, but, uh, we've probably come from the worldview that we need a lot of it to be safe and happy and healthy. Uh, so that pressure of, uh, rank and the pressure of pay, it's overwhelming. It's overwhelming for a student who's not had that break at all. And I remember when we finished our JEE at 5:30 p.m., at the end of that third paper, putting my pen down and saying, "Man, I'm, I'm done taking pressure for some external goal, external milestone in my life."

   17. AMAmrutash Misra11:44

       Mm.

   18. SKSriram Kalyanaraman11:45

       Um, it's a significant pressure. Um, a study that was done, I think, six, seven years ago in Harvard-

   19. AMAmrutash Misra11:51

       Mm

   20. SKSriram Kalyanaraman11:52

       ... uh, there was a task force set up for mental health. Uh, they discovered that about 20 to 30% of undergrad students report, self-report depression or, uh, feeling depressed.... uh, 20 to 30% report feeling anxious throughout-

   21. AMAmrutash Misra12:10

       Yeah

   22. SKSriram Kalyanaraman12:10

       - their time on campus. This is probably true of every engineering college today-

   23. AMAmrutash Misra12:14

       Yeah

   24. SKSriram Kalyanaraman12:14

       - because of this twofold pressure.

   25. AMAmrutash Misra12:16

       Yeah. And, and can I just add-

   26. SKSriram Kalyanaraman12:18

       Yeah

   27. AMAmrutash Misra12:18

       - that the AI era has exploded this because a lot of jobs are changing, and, uh, you may be in a field where you're not even sure, "If I graduate, what am I going to do?" So it's only increasing.

   28. SKSriram Kalyanaraman12:31

       Yeah, it's only increasing. And often, as a student, you're going through it alone on campus.

   29. AMAmrutash Misra12:38

       Yeah.

   30. SKSriram Kalyanaraman12:38

       That's the perceived experience of it, that, uh, my parents, my family are now away, and here I am on campus, and I don't know whom to lean on, m- uh, who my friends are, who my community is. So for this twofold reason, I would say, of pressure on campus and loneliness in campus, uh, this set up the foundation for why we started the course, Happiness, Habits and Success, to help give students an, a foundational understanding of what happiness means and what success means. Uh, and to find the habits and cultivate the habits that can make you both happy and productive at the same time. Again, research shows that, uh, the more positive-minded you are, the more of a positive outlook you have, the more likely you are to perform and outperform your peers. Uh, salesmen who had a positive outlook outperformed peers by a significant percentage. Doctors who are optimistic treat patients significantly better than pessimistic doctors. So that's the core idea, to tell students that there is a way to succeed, succeed beyond expectation, and that can also be a joyful journey. And-
8. 14:49 – 21:48

   The Mechanics of the Happiness Course

   1. AMAmrutash Misra14:49

      Like, is it a semester-long? Is it... Like, can you tell us the mechanics of the course?

   2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman14:53

      Sure. As I hear you, uh, what comes up is, uh, life is a journey of eternal humbling. [chuckles] Uh, I remember same. When I came to IIT, I thought I was the cat's whiskers. [chuckles] Uh, uh, it doesn't help if we come in with a high rank, uh, and then we meet our peers-

   3. AMAmrutash Misra15:14

      Yeah

   4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman15:14

      ... peers that we've been with. I went to Harvard. I thought, "Definitely the cat's whiskers here."

   5. AMAmrutash Misra15:21

      Yeah.

   6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman15:21

      Just absolutely humbled by the phenomenal capacity, potential of peers there. Uh, and then, uh, coming to McKinsey, uh, definitely the cat's whiskers here. And again, such inspiring people, such humble, inspiring people who are doing such great things. Not only when my peer consultants back then, but also the clients that we were serving, uh, leaders and owners of large businesses.

   7. AMAmrutash Misra15:48

      Yeah.

   8. SKSriram Kalyanaraman15:48

      So humble, so simple. So yes, life is a journey of eternal humbling. The mechanics of the course: it's a semester-long course. Um, it's come together through the efforts of several, several alum, and it's one of the things I absolutely love about, uh, IIT Madras. I think someone asked me some time back, "How is it that you guys have such a thriving alum network in IIT Madras?" Uh, I don't know the answer. It's probably because of people like you and the great contributions you are making.

   9. AMAmrutash Misra16:21

      All of us. [chuckles]

   10. SKSriram Kalyanaraman16:22

       All of us. Uh, [clears throat] so many alums have come together to, uh, create the course, shape it, evolve it and deliver it. In fact, today, the course is delivered by several part-time facilitators who are contributing their time and attention, uh, to make this happen. It's also funded in part by alum who resourced and provided resources to run the course. Uh, and the construct, we have close to a bench, if you may call it, of 20, 25-plus facilitators. Um, at any point in a semester, we are running six to ten batches in parallel, each of which have anywhere between 40 to 200 students within a batch. Uh-

   11. AMAmrutash Misra17:11

       So there's, like, 600 students taking this course?

   12. SKSriram Kalyanaraman17:14

       Every semester.

   13. AMAmrutash Misra17:15

       Okay.

   14. SKSriram Kalyanaraman17:15

       Six hundred students on campus every semester going through this course. Um, and students enjoy it. We enjoy it. Uh, it is a course on happiness, so that's the construct. It's a three-credit or a nine-credit course in our current time-

   15. AMAmrutash Misra17:32

       Okay, okay

   16. SKSriram Kalyanaraman17:33

       ... because the credit system-

   17. AMAmrutash Misra17:34

       Credits have changed.

   18. SKSriram Kalyanaraman17:35

       Changed.

   19. AMAmrutash Misra17:36

       So what-

   20. SKSriram Kalyanaraman17:36

       What used to be a three-credit course for us is today a nine-credit course.

   21. AMAmrutash Misra17:41

       Okay.

   22. SKSriram Kalyanaraman17:41

       Uh, so it's a nine-credit course, uh, and very focused on experiential learning. So we're not covering so much the theory of exercise or the theory of happiness. We're actually getting students to do the activities that lead to better health-

   23. AMAmrutash Misra17:57

       Can you give me one example?

   24. SKSriram Kalyanaraman17:58

       ... better happiness. So I, I, I'll give you two. [clears throat] In one class, uh, we teach, uh, the benefits of exercise.... students are asked to come dressed in, uh, tracks and shoes for that class. And before we begin the class, we go out in campus to do stretches or a run or cycle for 20, 30 minutes until our heart rate has built up to a point that's defined as exercise activity.

   25. AMAmrutash Misra18:28

       Mm.

   26. SKSriram Kalyanaraman18:29

       And then students come back, they're all sweating, and we're back in our seats, sweaty, smelly room after that, and then we ask them: "How are you feeling? How are you feeling after physically exerting yourself to a healthy point for 20, 30 minutes?" And they've got it. You don't even need to run the theory after that anymore. So that's one example, teaching exercise through actually doing it, and then covering the benefits of exercise as we learn from s- research in neuroscience. Uh, and so that's one example. The other, which I really love, which we've evolved over the time, uh, we teach a module on gratitude, of just being grateful to yourself and to others for all that we have received. Otherwise, the pressure of rank and the pressure of pay-

   27. AMAmrutash Misra19:19

       Mm

   28. SKSriram Kalyanaraman19:19

       ... can make us forget all that we have and be constantly looking at what we don't have, living a life of lack-

   29. AMAmrutash Misra19:26

       Yeah

   30. SKSriram Kalyanaraman19:26

       ... and not sufficiency. So the module on gratitude, um, we get people to go and talk to their parents or a grandparent and ask them, what are they grateful for-
9. 21:48 – 26:09

   The Role of Soft Skills in Engineering Education

   1. AMAmrutash Misra21:48

      time, right?

   2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman21:48

      Mm.

   3. AMAmrutash Misra21:49

      So I'm just, uh, I... So the reason why I was welling up was, um, just thinking of how little we at our times may ... I guess your course is one of those things that have changed, uh, the, the thing on campus now. But there was so much emphasis on engineering, hard skills, very little on soft skills, right?

   4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman22:11

      Mm. Very true. Very true. And two things come up. The, the first I'll say, you said your course, I'd say our course. Just like you said, we are building this campus.

   5. AMAmrutash Misra22:24

      Yeah.

   6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman22:24

      Um, our course, um, is, is one of a bouquet of courses. In fact, today, IIT Madras offers a minor degree in PPD, Personal and Professional Development, where if you've done some of the courses in the bouquet, uh, you get a minor degree in PPD instead of some of the other hard disciplines, as you called it. Uh, m- first-year students go through a course called the Life Skills course. It's a mandatory course on campus today. So all incoming fresher students, undergrad students, go through the Life Skills course. It's a semester-long course again. Uh, there's the Happiness course. There's a course on, uh, unlocking creativity. Uh, there's a course on nurturing relationships, enriching your relationships. And, uh, we often find in the workplace, you and I may have experienced it, I've heard so many of our peers today talk about it, that students who come out of engineering colleges don't seem to be work-ready.

   7. AMAmrutash Misra23:29

      Yeah.

   8. SKSriram Kalyanaraman23:30

      And this whole PPD minor and the efforts to put in these courses-

   9. AMAmrutash Misra23:34

      By the way, that work-ready doesn't mean skill-wise, it means soft skill-wise.

   10. SKSriram Kalyanaraman23:38

       Soft skill-wise.

   11. AMAmrutash Misra23:39

       Not able to work in a team, not able to take feedback-

   12. SKSriram Kalyanaraman23:42

       Exactly

   13. AMAmrutash Misra23:42

       ... things like that.

   14. SKSriram Kalyanaraman23:43

       Exactly. Yeah. Uh, soft skill-ready at work. Uh, so, um, uh, the PPD, Personal and Professional Development, uh, minor at, uh, IIT, IIT Madras is unique in this. I don't know of a single other IIT campus, it may be my ignorance, but as far as I know, uh, no other campus has a degree in personal development and professional development to help prepare students from a soft skills perspective to excel in, uh, the workplace. And-... uh, as the saying goes, right? IQ gets you the job, EQ gets you the promotions.

   15. AMAmrutash Misra24:21

       Mm, nice.

   16. SKSriram Kalyanaraman24:21

       [chuckles]

   17. AMAmrutash Misra24:22

       But can I push you a bit on that? I mean, when we were on campus, I, I did say that we didn't have formal soft skill courses, but we had dramatics, we had, uh, Saarang Shastra. We did work together. We learned it on, on the go.

   18. SKSriram Kalyanaraman24:34

       Yeah.

   19. AMAmrutash Misra24:34

       And is it fair for parents, and maybe administrators also, to push back saying, "Hey, you joined IIT to pick up this hard skills, the engineering-

   20. SKSriram Kalyanaraman24:42

       Yeah

   21. AMAmrutash Misra24:43

       ... and maybe the soft skills are your responsibility. You pick it up on your own, or you-

   22. SKSriram Kalyanaraman24:46

       Mm

   23. AMAmrutash Misra24:46

       ... figure out how you're going to do it, or we put you in a residential campus, you are... It'll happen anyway."

   24. SKSriram Kalyanaraman24:53

       Mm.

   25. AMAmrutash Misra24:53

       Is that a fair criticism?

   26. SKSriram Kalyanaraman24:55

       Probably. Uh, I don't know. I don't know. So that perspective says that, uh, you came to an engineering college, and we are teaching you the hard skills. Figure the soft skills on your own. Um, think the challenge in this day and age is also the, uh, pandemic of, uh, technology-

   27. AMAmrutash Misra25:19

       Mm

   28. SKSriram Kalyanaraman25:19

       ... and having cell phones and devices. In our time, it was easy to do that because there was not a phone in our pockets to be looking at all the time.

   29. AMAmrutash Misra25:30

       Sure.

   30. SKSriram Kalyanaraman25:30

       The organic soft skill development was well-enabled because the way to spend time was to hang out with people-
10. 26:09 – 31:20

    The Importance of Structured Interventions

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman26:10

       Uh, so in an age where student attention is, and time is going so much into digital screens, we do need structured interventions and offerings that help them come out of that. And in fact, one of the biggest positive feedbacks we get from students who've gone through the HHS course... Even, uh, two weeks back, I did one-on-ones with students, along with my peers, for, uh, students going through this semester, and I asked them: "What are you enjoying the most about the course?" About half of them say, "The opportunity to interact with my peer student and find out what he or she is going through, and know that I'm not alone. I'm not alone. I used to think that I'm the only one dealing with all of these pressures, and it's great to know that almost everyone is going through some of this." So we do need those structured offerings, in my view.

    2. AMAmrutash Misra27:08

       I, I want to add a little bit here.

    3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman27:10

       Mm.

    4. AMAmrutash Misra27:11

       Um, and this is my opinion. Um, sometimes what happens is that, like, if it's not the school's res- maybe if you're going to a coaching kind of school, it's not the school's responsibility to teach you soft skills, and then it's definitely not the workplace's responsibility, because you're going there to perform. So if everybody says, "It's not my responsibility to-

    5. SKSriram Kalyanaraman27:30

       Mm

    6. AMAmrutash Misra27:31

       ... help you with soft skills," then whose responsibility is it?

    7. SKSriram Kalyanaraman27:33

       Mm.

    8. AMAmrutash Misra27:33

       Like, you've fallen through the gaps because nobody's taken that effort, right?

    9. SKSriram Kalyanaraman27:37

       Mm. Mm.

    10. AMAmrutash Misra27:37

        Uh, and it's incidental. Sometimes it happens, and sometimes it doesn't. And so having a structured system at least helps everyone start thinking about it, right?

    11. SKSriram Kalyanaraman27:46

        I agree. I was actually, uh, speaking with, um, a few founders recently of a tech company, and, um, I was telling them: why is it that parents put so much pressure on a student to get a high rank and get a high pay, high-paying job? It's because their assumption is that once I get my kids into college, and once they get a good job, they are no longer my responsibility. It's true, right? Like, there's almost an unconscious assumption that I'm handing over my children now to the real world-

    12. AMAmrutash Misra28:26

        Okay

    13. SKSriram Kalyanaraman28:27

        ... to the workplace, to be taken care of. And there's an implicit trust, which is unspoken, that this place that is taking my child now is going to take care of them in the same way as I am.

    14. AMAmrutash Misra28:41

        Yeah.

    15. SKSriram Kalyanaraman28:42

        And that's not true. Like, workplaces-

    16. AMAmrutash Misra28:44

        Yeah, not true

    17. SKSriram Kalyanaraman28:45

        ... that, to your point, don't take on that responsibility-

    18. AMAmrutash Misra28:48

        Yeah

    19. SKSriram Kalyanaraman28:48

        ... of developing the-

    20. AMAmrutash Misra28:49

        Yeah

    21. SKSriram Kalyanaraman28:49

        ... persons who are coming in. So much pressure, the pressure continues to build up. We hear about, uh, mental health situations, sometimes extreme, even in that world. Uh, so I was sharing with these founders that it is the workplace's responsibility to help people also become healthier, happier, while contributing to the success and profits of the organization.

    22. AMAmrutash Misra29:12

        That's amazing. Uh, I read this article, uh, which spoke about this change in the nature of employee-employer relationship. Uh, 20, 30 years back, the employer was considered like, "I'm going here to spend a lot of time, and there will be... Like, I will join a family," or something like that.

    23. SKSriram Kalyanaraman29:30

        Mm.

    24. AMAmrutash Misra29:31

        Today, it's like, "I'm going here for a two-year mission."

    25. SKSriram Kalyanaraman29:34

        Mm.

    26. AMAmrutash Misra29:34

        "We are... With my colleagues, I'm going to fight some war." I mean, not real war, but, like, some corporate war. "And then after that, I will go f- join some other mission in some other company, and then it's another two years." So it's become very sort of like, um, we are here together now, but it's almost implicit that me and my colleagues are going to see each other only for two years, and then I will move, and he will move-

    27. SKSriram Kalyanaraman29:56

        Mm

    28. AMAmrutash Misra29:57

        ... or she will move or something.

    29. SKSriram Kalyanaraman29:59

        Mm.

    30. AMAmrutash Misra29:59

        Right? So, uh, yeah, nature of workplace transactions.
11. 31:20 – 35:09

    The Genesis of the Happiness Course

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman31:21

       Um, so Professor Shivakumar, Shiva. Anbudan Shiva, as we-

    2. AMAmrutash Misra31:26

       Who was my hostel warden, by the way.

    3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman31:28

       Oh, uh, Anbudan Shiva, who, uh, as we call him with affection. Uh, for those who don't know, Anbudan Shiva in Tamil translates to Shiva with love. So, uh, [clears throat] he was, at the time in 2017, um, he was dean students on campus, and this was his second tenure. And he was already noticing that there was a growing, uh, loneliness, student struggle with pressure, expectations, et cetera, on this campus. Uh, and he was probably noticing ahead of time what most other campuses today are also now aware of.

    4. AMAmrutash Misra32:13

       Yeah.

    5. SKSriram Kalyanaraman32:13

       Uh, he came... At the time, uh, there was a, a gentleman, Prashant Vasu, my-- one of my mentors and seniors at McKinsey, who was teaching meditation workshops on campus on Saturdays. And so Shiva came to Prashant and said, uh, "Hey, what if we did something about the struggles that students are going through, the mental health struggles students are going through? You teach meditation, so why don't you brainstorm and come up with something?" So it was Prashant's idea that, um, a course that's focused on, uh, positivity and happiness could work. At the time, I was quite actively doing the work of leadership development and human transformation at McKinsey. So Prashant came up, and I remember the aisle conversation at office that day, seven years ago, eight years ago, where he said, "Hey, uh, would you be interested in doing something for campus?" We are both alums. Prashant is an... I think he's a '90, uh, two alum or a '93 alum. And, uh, I said, "Yeah, sure." And we got into a room with two students from IT Madras who had just joined McKinsey, uh, recently. So the four of us sat and started brainstorming what this would look like. We drew on the research of positive psychology that has come from, uh, largely the West right now. In particular, um, Dr Martin Seligman, who is considered one of the fathers of positive psychology at, uh, UPenn, the University of Pennsylvania. Decades of work to show that, um, there is a, a lot to be learned by studying people who are happy and understanding what their habits and their characteristics are. And one of his students, Shawn Achor, who had written a book called The Happiness Advantage, which then became our textbook, uh, to understand what's the research in this space, uh, what are the practices and the simple habits that can help us be healthier, happier, more successful. Uh, so that was the journey, and the insight was probably that habits are the master key here.

    6. AMAmrutash Misra34:27

       Mm.

    7. SKSriram Kalyanaraman34:28

       The idea that the brain, uh, previously it used to be believed that the brain grows and evolves like this as we become adults, and then plateaus. Um, but the last two and a half decades of research in neuroscience tell us that the brain is actually continuously evolving.

    8. AMAmrutash Misra34:46

       Okay.

    9. SKSriram Kalyanaraman34:46

       And we can rewire our own brain through conscious intention and habitual practice. That's what research tells us. So that was probably the insight that, along with Shiva's discovery of the need for on campus, came together, and with Shawn Achor's research, uh, helped us begin this

12. 35:09 – 36:28

    The Role of Alumni in Course Development

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman35:09

       journey.

    2. AMAmrutash Misra35:09

       So and I think a-after that, many other alumni got involved, and-

    3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman35:12

       That, and that's the most amazing thing to me. It's, it's... I still can't-- It feels like a real miracle, like angels coming together. When, when we started, Prashant and I, I remember we would come to the placement office. They had a room there that they would loan us, twenty-five students in the first semester that we began with. Um, and then Shiva and Prashant, uh, had this idea of making this an open, inclusive, uh, process. So, uh, alums slowly started stepping in. We had, uh, Sathya Sriram, uh, who coincidentally is a non-alum, uh, and, uh, a PhD in neuroscience who came in, um, Sridhar, uh, who came in after that, uh, who's been an alum and currently the-

    4. AMAmrutash Misra35:57

       Yeah

    5. SKSriram Kalyanaraman35:58

       ... um, heads, leads the-

    6. AMAmrutash Misra36:00

       Alumni

    7. SKSriram Kalyanaraman36:01

       ... Alumni Affairs Association. So a lot of people who've come in, and over the time, we've also included... So the early folks who came in were, uh, engineering alums, and all of us came into this [chuckles] course-

    8. AMAmrutash Misra36:14

       [chuckles]

    9. SKSriram Kalyanaraman36:14

       ... a little like noobs, right? Which is, "So what's this mind stuff?"

    10. AMAmrutash Misra36:21

        Yeah.

    11. SKSriram Kalyanaraman36:21

        "And what's this brain stuff?" [laughing]

    12. AMAmrutash Misra36:23

        Let's fix it.

    13. SKSriram Kalyanaraman36:23

        And, uh, and-

    14. AMAmrutash Misra36:24

        Let's do a root cause analysis.

    15. SKSriram Kalyanaraman36:25

        Let's just do a root cause analysis, and that's the

13. 36:28 – 36:38

    The Logic of Inner Transformation

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman36:28

       beauty. There is a logic to inner transformation.

    2. AMAmrutash Misra36:31

       Okay.

    3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman36:31

       Uh, there is a logic and reasoning to how transformation works. Um, and-...

14. 36:38 – 37:19

    Teaching Happiness: A Source of Joy

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman36:38

       And so that was the first group, and it was a revelation to them. To your point, I don't know how many of us were depressed as alumni when we came in, but people I speak to today, uh, teaching this course is such a big source of joy for all of us, joy and fulfillment. Over the last seven years, at, at the end of the year, I would always rank what were my top two or three, um, most joyful, most fulfilling, uh, offerings and experiences this year. Teaching Happiness Habits and Success at IIT Madras was always consistently in the top three every year. And over time, that bench has now also begun to draw,

15. 37:19 – 37:45

    Diverse Pool of Facilitators

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman37:19

       and we are blessed to have, uh, younger folks, as well as, uh, people from a psychology, a coaching, a neuroscience background. So a much larger background, more diverse of a pool of facilitators now that we have, and I'm super excited for the future of where this is heading. Our intention, uh, is to reach every student on campus.

    2. AMAmrutash Misra37:44

       Very nice.

16. 37:45 – 39:21

    Course Growth and Alumni Interest

    1. AMAmrutash Misra37:45

       Can I just say this? You started with a twenty-five people course. Your first course was only twenty-five people, and now you have six hundred people in your course.

    2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman37:51

       Yeah.

    3. AMAmrutash Misra37:52

       I've heard this from someone else. [chuckles] Professor Ravindran, who teaches reinforcement learning. His first reinforcement learning had, like, six, ten, ten students, like, fifteen years back, and now it has, like, six hundred students.

    4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman38:04

       Wow!

    5. AMAmrutash Misra38:05

       So-

    6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman38:05

       Wow.

    7. AMAmrutash Misra38:05

       -the kind of explosion... I, I, it's interesting because it, it feels like that many students on campus care about it and think about it, and it's cool.

    8. SKSriram Kalyanaraman38:14

       Amazing.

    9. AMAmrutash Misra38:15

       I've also heard from alumni who have heard the course description and have said, "Hey, we want to take the course." Um, has that happened to you?

    10. SKSriram Kalyanaraman38:23

        It has. We actually ran an alum batch, the batch of 1985, who are what? In their late fifties now. During the pandemic, uh, we, we ran a, a four-month online version of the course, um, and we had such good, positive feedback from that group, uh, for basically the same reasons. People were so happy that they could come back together and interact with their peers in a different way. Uh, not just ask about the, "Hey, how are you? How's family-

    11. AMAmrutash Misra38:58

        Yeah.

    12. SKSriram Kalyanaraman38:58

        -work, children?" But also, uh, "How are you?"

    13. AMAmrutash Misra39:02

        Yeah.

    14. SKSriram Kalyanaraman39:03

        "How are you, uh, three decades on from campus? How is everything going within...?" Uh, that was one big reason, and the other was, again, the revelation that, yeah, uh, life has now shown me that habits matter, and I now have a way of understanding it and going through it.

17. 39:21 – 39:33

    Challenges in Habit Formation

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman39:21

       Having said all that, I do wanna add one of the, uh, failure modes or challenges with habit building and habit formation is, again, the pressure of-

    2. AMAmrutash Misra39:31

       Yeah.

    3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman39:31

       ... "Oh, my God!" Like, okay-

18. 39:33 – 41:07

    Course Grading and Consistency

    1. AMAmrutash Misra39:33

       Oh, yeah, does the course have a grade?

    2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman39:34

       Huh?

    3. AMAmrutash Misra39:35

       Does the course-

    4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman39:35

       It does have a grade. [laughing] It does have a grade. Um, it's... However, the course is designed such that it's not relative grading.

    5. AMAmrutash Misra39:47

       Okay.

    6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman39:47

       So we release the pressure of competitiveness from, uh, from the course structure. Um, but in habit formation, one of the common challenges is I was meditating, or I was going to the gym four days in a row, three weeks, and suddenly last week, I didn't go a single day. I've just lost the-

    7. AMAmrutash Misra40:09

       Oh.

    8. SKSriram Kalyanaraman40:10

       Yeah.

    9. AMAmrutash Misra40:11

       Yeah.

    10. SKSriram Kalyanaraman40:11

        So this idea that, um-

    11. AMAmrutash Misra40:13

        So you're competitively trying to force a habit.

    12. SKSriram Kalyanaraman40:16

        Yeah, forcing a habit on yourself.

    13. AMAmrutash Misra40:18

        Yeah.

    14. SKSriram Kalyanaraman40:19

        The idea that, uh, consistency in habits is equal to hundred percent, twenty-four/seven, always on. And, uh, this is something I was sharing in the o- in the one-on-ones as well, and we shared this in the course. Um, consistency in relation to habit building is not hundred percent all the time. Consistency actually looks like hundred percent one day, eighty percent the second day, ninety-four percent the third day, thirty-three percent the fourth day. Consistency is showing up. Uh, it's not being perfect all the time, it's just showing up. So I do also wanna acknowledge, uh, that it's a very easy, joyful process to-

    15. AMAmrutash Misra41:03

        Yes

    16. SKSriram Kalyanaraman41:04

        ... find the practices to go through life happily.

19. 41:07 – 42:09

    Measuring Course Impact

    1. AMAmrutash Misra41:07

       Do you have a way to measure the impact of the course?

    2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman41:10

       We do. Uh, right when we began the course, we started with, um, having students do a baseline survey and an end line survey. We used two instruments, which these days I use even in my, uh, leadership coaching. The first is called the PSS instrument, Perceived Stress Score, and the second is called the MHWB, the Mental Health and Wellbeing, uh, Instrument. Both of these are, uh, psychologically and statistically well-tested instruments, reliable ways to assess, um... In statistics, I think it's called a Cronbach's alpha score, which measures the validity of an instrument. High Cronbach's alpha scores for these two. We get students to take the, uh, survey at the start of the course, and then at the end. What we find is that consistently there is a twenty to thirty percent uptick on how happy, uh, mentally healthy students are feeling, and how much lesser stress they are perceiving.

    3. AMAmrutash Misra42:08

       Mm.

    4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman42:08

       So

20. 42:09 – 42:39

    Addressing Mental Health

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman42:09

       this is, I would say, just the first building block. We are in some way countering the Harvard finding, twenty, thirty percent students reporting depression. Through a course like this, twenty, thirty percent uptick in mental health and reduction in stress. There's a lot more that can be done.

    2. AMAmrutash Misra42:26

       Sure.

    3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman42:26

       It requires the resources, the attention.

    4. AMAmrutash Misra42:29

       I understand. If it was twenty percent down, then to actually get twenty percent up, you're still at the same level.

    5. SKSriram Kalyanaraman42:34

       Exactly.

    6. AMAmrutash Misra42:35

       If it was forty percent up, then it would be-

    7. SKSriram Kalyanaraman42:37

       It would be.

    8. AMAmrutash Misra42:37

       But, uh, let me ask you a totally

21. 42:39 – 43:00

    Amaidhi School for Transformation

    1. AMAmrutash Misra42:39

       different question, and-... you have a School for Transformation, you coach a lot of executives, you meet a lot of people. Do you feel that there's this sense in some people that if I'm happy or empathetic or kind, then my competitiveness becomes less?

    2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman42:55

       Mm. Mm.

    3. AMAmrutash Misra42:57

       Do you think that sort of like, that idea exists?

    4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman42:59

       Yeah.

22. 43:00 – 45:48

    The belief that kindness makes one weak or less competitive

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman43:00

       Yeah, it, it, it does. There's probably an unconscious, uh, script, uh, in the, uh, collective consciousness of society that, uh, "Kindness makes me weak. Empathy makes me less competitive," um-

    2. AMAmrutash Misra43:16

       Happiness makes me complacent.

    3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman43:17

       Happiness makes me complacent, or celebrating success makes me complacent. Uh, I was speaking with someone three days back, a founder, and, um, the, he was sharing with me, "Sriram..." This is a CEO, again, of a tech company. "Sriram, I struggle to appreciate my people, even when, uh, they're doing really well. I want to, but I'm so wired to look at what's next and to build the company, that, uh, I find it almost impossible." And then people feel that they're not being appreciated or they are under-recognized, and different organizations have different ways of addressing this.

    4. AMAmrutash Misra43:56

       As you're saying this, I remember this is so ingrained. I remember my class 10 teacher telling me, "I'm not going to congratulate you, because next test you'll do badly."

    5. SKSriram Kalyanaraman44:05

       Wow! Starts very early on.

    6. AMAmrutash Misra44:07

       Very early.

    7. SKSriram Kalyanaraman44:08

       Very early on. It's ingrained in the collective psyche of society. Um, so, uh, [clears throat] it's a belief, and, uh, the belief that happiness can lead to success, uh, celebration can actually motivate a person to do even better. Empathy can unlock whatever is holding me back, another back, and increase the collective pie, the size of the collective pie. These are also beliefs.

    8. AMAmrutash Misra44:37

       Yeah.

    9. SKSriram Kalyanaraman44:37

       Uh, we are the chooser of the beliefs. Uh, we are not bound by anyone. We are not making a case of right and wrong here.

    10. AMAmrutash Misra44:46

        Yeah.

    11. SKSriram Kalyanaraman44:46

        Uh, we are saying, choose what works for you, and if what you want is happiness and success, positivity and profit, um, success and satisfaction, then choose those beliefs that work for you, and operate out of those beliefs.

    12. AMAmrutash Misra45:03

        Sure. I get what you're saying. Um, um, as I'm saying, I, I think there's a broader context also as a country, as a society. We've been moving from a very resource-constrained-

    13. SKSriram Kalyanaraman45:14

        Mm

    14. AMAmrutash Misra45:15

        ... environment to there are more resources now. For example, jobs on campus.

    15. SKSriram Kalyanaraman45:18

        Mm.

    16. AMAmrutash Misra45:19

        There were very, very few jobs on campus earlier. Um, the competitiveness for those jobs was very, very high. Now, it's not like ev- it's not like everybody gets a one-crore offer, but at least it's more. It's, uh, less, um, competitive, and maybe... Uh, no, it's less, uh, constrained, the resources, and maybe, um, we don't need to behave the way we were behaving, uh, when the resources were very little.

    17. SKSriram Kalyanaraman45:44

        Yeah, it's a great point. As you say that, um, uh,

23. 45:48 – 46:55

    Cultural Shifts in Philanthropy

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman45:49

       Bill Gates and Warren Buffett's, uh, world philanthropy tour comes to mind. So, uh, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett went from country to country, meeting billionaires around the world, uh, urging and nudging and goading them to donate part of their wealth to philanthropy. And when they came back to the US, they had actually signed massive commitments, um, except from India and China, at least were two significant geographies where they said their discovery was these two geographies are not yet ready. Uh, the, the consciousness in these countries back then, uh, not yet ready for the wealthy to part with their wealth. Uh, and yes, a lot of wealthy people do philanthropy today. Times are changing, as you say. We are recognizing that India is no longer, uh, the, uh, we are no longer in the Hindu era.

    2. AMAmrutash Misra46:47

       Y- you are talking about a story that's, like, five, maybe ten years ago, right?

    3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman46:50

       Yeah, ten years. Ten, twelve years, and we've grown and shifted and evolved significantly-

24. 46:55 – 47:27

    Shift from Resource Constraint to Abundance in India

    1. AMAmrutash Misra46:55

       Yeah

    2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman46:55

       ... since even the last decade and a half here. So, um, you're right. I, I love the message that it's time for us to wake up and to recognize where India has come as a country, and to claim all of the abundance that comes with that spot. Otherwise, we will just be perpetrating and reinforcing our own worldview of scarcity-

    3. AMAmrutash Misra47:18

       Yeah

    4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman47:18

       ... uh, even though we have a lot to celebrate.

    5. AMAmrutash Misra47:20

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scarcity mindset, that's what it's called, right?

    6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman47:23

       Yeah.

    7. AMAmrutash Misra47:24

       Yeah. Um, wow! Okay,

25. 47:27 – 49:09

    Journey from IT to People Development

    1. AMAmrutash Misra47:27

       so I want to just dial back a bit. We-- you, you started [chuckles] your journey in IIT Madras, Computer Science, and we are talking of something completely different. We're not even talking of data structures, algorithms, or something. So can you give us a... Just to tie everything up, can you give us like a f- l- like a short run-through of your journey so far?

    2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman47:46

       Sure. So, um, JEE happened, and, uh, I came into IIT Madras and took Computer Science. Uh, I, uh, I remember the choice to take computer science was, uh, inspiration from elder brother. I remember the January of 2003, when we were giving the exam that year, he asked me, "If you get the rank of your choice, what department will you take?" And I told him, without batting an eyelid, I said, "Mechanical." He said, "No, no, if you get the rank of your choice, what department?" I said: "Mechanical." He said, "Why?" I said, "Because I like drawing, and mechanical engineering has a lot of, like, drawing-

    3. AMAmrutash Misra48:27

       Yeah

    4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman48:27

       ... and visualizing."

    5. AMAmrutash Misra48:28

       Yeah.

    6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman48:28

       And he basically convinced me [chuckles] that, uh, uh, CS was a better idea. He asked me-- He told me, one, that "it's engineering drawing, it's not the kind of drawing I've seen you do growing up and enjoy." Uh, he asked me what I love. I said, "Drawing and mathematics." He said, "CS might be an option." That's how CS happened.... Over the four years, I tested the waters and, uh, became clear to me that, uh, this was not my cup of tea. Uh, I wasn't flowing, thriving. Something else was calling me, which was working with people. I wanted to be a lot more sleeves rolled up-

    7. AMAmrutash Misra49:03

       Yeah

    8. SKSriram Kalyanaraman49:03

       ... in front of people, conversation, exactly what we are doing today.

26. 49:09 – 52:51

    McKinsey and Nonprofit Experience

    1. AMAmrutash Misra49:09

       Mm.

    2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman49:09

       Um, and by grace, McKinsey happened. Um, again, that happened-- I threw many darts, uh, on the board as a fourth-year student. I took GRE, I applied... I was beginning to apply for, uh, master's programs in colleges. I, uh, gave the CAT, uh, on a last-minute whim. Uh, I sat for banking interviews, I sat for consulting interviews. Um, and when McKinsey happened, I just knew, my whole body knew that, "Yeah, this is it. This is awesome. I'm excited about this." Few years in McKinsey, to your point of straying away again from the beaten path, that didn't give me the joy and fulfillment I was seeking. Uh, at back then, most people who came to McKinsey out of the IITs were going into private equity or venture capital.

    3. AMAmrutash Misra49:56

       Yeah.

    4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman49:57

       And those paths didn't seem exciting for me. I wanted to, uh, to my vision, continuing to my vision of being a CEO at thirty-five of a multimillion-dollar company, the fear and regret that I had was: what if I get to thirty-five, do all of this, but I haven't actually impacted society in any way? So I quit McKinsey, and I joined a nonprofit called Pratham, the Pratham Education Foundation. They work in, uh, rural primary education, and back then, they were starting to work in urban slums as well. Uh, I spent a year there, convinced me that this was giving me joy. Uh, not sure how it's gonna put bread on the table. Uh-

    5. AMAmrutash Misra50:36

       Okay, one second. Can you just, uh, P- Pratham advises the government of India on the state of education in the country, right?

    6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman50:42

       Yeah.

    7. AMAmrutash Misra50:43

       And, uh, they do these massive surveys-

    8. SKSriram Kalyanaraman50:45

       Yeah

    9. AMAmrutash Misra50:45

       ... they're called-

    10. SKSriram Kalyanaraman50:45

        ASER.

    11. AMAmrutash Misra50:46

        AS- ASER surveys. Uh, I was gonna say ASER, but okay, ASER.

    12. SKSriram Kalyanaraman50:50

        Yeah.

    13. AMAmrutash Misra50:50

        ASER surveys, which, uh, bas-

    14. SKSriram Kalyanaraman50:52

        It's intended to have an ASER on the state of education.

    15. AMAmrutash Misra50:55

        Ah, nice. So, uh, the ASER surveys check... Uh, so if you read a report, uh, in the newspaper saying that class five students, so many percentage are able to do class five math-

    16. SKSriram Kalyanaraman51:06

        Mm

    17. AMAmrutash Misra51:06

        ... so many percentage are only able to do class three math, that's an ASER survey data point, right?

    18. SKSriram Kalyanaraman51:10

        Correct. Exactly. The, uh, what it measures and the most prominent statistic that, uh, it brought to light was the percentage of class five students who could read a class-one-level paragraph was somewhere between thirty to fifty percent. I don't know where it falls now, but what they were revealing was for the quantity of resource and infrastructure that's going into education, the quality of learning outcomes wasn't matching up, and how do we focus on quality, um, in addition to quantity, was one big idea. So spent a year there. Uh, Pratham is w- uh, founded by a gentleman called, uh, co-founded by a gentleman called Madhav Chavan, who used to be an assistant professor of chemistry at Virginia University.

    19. AMAmrutash Misra52:03

        Mm.

    20. SKSriram Kalyanaraman52:03

        Uh, so to see a person like that do work like this gave me complete confidence that, okay, like, any path is possible, uh, for anybody. And gave me the courage to say: "I'm not gonna apply for an MBA," uh, which was the conventional, uh, outcome expected of people by then, at the stage I was at. "I'm gonna study economics." And again, I asked myself the question, "If I were to devote two years of my life to study something, uh, and maybe I won't study again in an institution for the rest of this lifetime, what one subject do I want to learn before I pass on?" Was the question I asked myself, and economics came up for some reason. Hadn't studied it on campus, even though there were courses.

27. 52:51 – 55:40

    Harvard and Leadership Development

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman52:51

       Went to Harvard, did the Kennedy School of Government. The intention then was join World Bank, United Nations.

    2. AMAmrutash Misra52:58

       Let's just pause there a bit. Kennedy School of Government, not everybody goes there, obviously, uh, it... uh, so m- from India, that is.

    3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman53:04

       Mm.

    4. AMAmrutash Misra53:04

       So it's not like we've heard a lot about it. So what is the Kennedy School of Government? Who are the alumni? What do they do?

    5. SKSriram Kalyanaraman53:11

       Sure. So the Harvard Kennedy School of Government is Harvard's School of Public Policy and International Development. It attracts people from the governments around the world, as well as people in the development sector, and also people in the private sector who are interested in moving into a career in government or development. So typically, the students you'd find on campus there are- they range from, uh, younger folks like me, who had had some private sector experience, uh, or had worked in ministries or departments and nonprofits, and are here and are wanting to move on to such careers. It also has, um, students in executive education programs who are ex-ministers, uh, ex-army personnel, um, ex-politicians, uh, ex-bureaucrats. Uh, and from India, every year, um, candidates are nominated from both the senior, uh, strata of IAS and IPS. So I had, uh, fellow students from India who were, uh, serving IPS and IAS officers, uh, who are going to upskill themselves and, and understand, have a more global understanding, and then bring that back to the nation-building work. My thought was, I was going to the Kennedy School to join the World Bank. Uh, people from those institutions, after speaking with me and understanding the kind of person I am, dissuaded me from joining those institutions because they said, "For someone like you who's been through a meritocratic environment, uh, you're not gonna enjoy working in a bureaucracy."... um, it's just not going to be your cup of tea. And at that same time, McKinsey in India had opened up its, uh, leadership institute, and the partner who had hired me out of IIT some years ago was leading the social sector office for Asia in, within McKinsey. So it made sense for me to come back to McKinsey. Uh, felt like I could find a path that fits my passions, my purpose, and that's why I came back. I came back to India after my time at Harvard, and, uh, and then I found my ground in leadership development within McKinsey.

    6. AMAmrutash Misra55:36

       Nice. That's how you got into people development and-

    7. SKSriram Kalyanaraman55:39

       Got into people development,

28. 55:40 – 58:51

    Meditation and Headspace

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman55:40

       and-

    2. AMAmrutash Misra55:40

       I read some- uh, you, you've said somewhere that at, at, in all of this, you were one of the first thousand subscribers of Headspace. Is that correct?

    3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman55:49

       Yeah, it is. It is.

    4. AMAmrutash Misra55:50

       That is so random. [chuckles]

    5. SKSriram Kalyanaraman55:53

       Yeah, it is. Uh, because, uh, this is back in 2011, summer of 2011. I was doing my Harvard internship in Peru, and there was one day that, one evening that summer, when I came back home and I was filled ... My mind was just bustling with thoughts, uh, confused, in a dilemma, um, couldn't make sense of anything. And so I went on to Google. I re- I still remember sitting on that sofa after coming back from work, and I typed the query: how to find more space in my mind?

    6. AMAmrutash Misra56:29

       Mm.

    7. SKSriram Kalyanaraman56:30

       And the second result that came up was Headspace.

    8. AMAmrutash Misra56:34

       Mm.

    9. SKSriram Kalyanaraman56:34

       Uh, Andy Puddicombe had just... This was this BBC journalist who had gone to Thailand, enamored by Buddhism, and become a Buddhist monk, and had given up his monkhood close to a decade later and come back to Britain to bring meditation to the world. So he had started this fledgling app, and, uh, that's where I began. And, uh, it actually helped me sow the seeds for the meditation practice that I have today. Um, when I started, it was incredibly hard. I must tell you this, Headspace, back then, had a program called Take Ten.

    10. AMAmrutash Misra57:09

        Mm.

    11. SKSriram Kalyanaraman57:09

        That was their intro program. Ten minutes a day for ten days. If you completed that, you would graduate to Take Twenty, twenty minutes a day for twenty days, and you'd graduate to Take Thirty, thirty minutes a day for thirty days, and then the advanced six levels would unlock. So I got on the app once I came back to Cambridge from Peru, and I thought, "In a year, I'm gonna complete all the way up-

    12. AMAmrutash Misra57:35

        Yeah

    13. SKSriram Kalyanaraman57:35

        ... to the top of level six and hopefully enlightened by then." [laughing]

    14. AMAmrutash Misra57:37

        Of course. We have done IIT, McKinsey. How hard can this be?

    15. SKSriram Kalyanaraman57:42

        How hard can enlightenment be after IIT? [laughing]

    16. AMAmrutash Misra57:45

        [laughing]

    17. SKSriram Kalyanaraman57:46

        It took me one full year to complete Take Ten.

    18. AMAmrutash Misra57:50

        [laughing]

    19. SKSriram Kalyanaraman57:51

        It took me three sixty-five days to find ten days and just ten minutes each day.

    20. AMAmrutash Misra57:58

        Mm.

    21. SKSriram Kalyanaraman57:59

        Um, and after that, the journey began. Um, I always fall back to that time when I doubt myself or worry about not having done enough on my meditation practice.

    22. AMAmrutash Misra58:13

        Mm.

    23. SKSriram Kalyanaraman58:13

        Yeah.

    24. AMAmrutash Misra58:15

        It's amazing. Um, I know you said that everybody asks you, but I feel like asking you again: Do you use any of your computer science courses in your [chuckles] work?

    25. SKSriram Kalyanaraman58:24

        In my work today, uh? Um, no. The short answer is no. My wife, Anusha, she doubted for the longest time that I was from IIT. [chuckles]

    26. AMAmrutash Misra58:38

        [chuckles]

    27. SKSriram Kalyanaraman58:38

        So when we shifted houses, I found our degree, and I actually went to her and showed her, "Look, this proves evidentially that I did graduate with a computer science degree."

29. 58:51 – 1:04:00

    Empathy and Logic in Transformation

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman58:51

       Um, what I do use from my time at IIT is, uh, two things. The first is the understanding of logic as a way of navigating reality. Um, logic was core to our study of computer science over the four years in campus here, and it helped me a lot because I was able to understand for myself that there is a logic to inner transformation. Uh, there is a logic to how human consciousness conditions itself and how we become the people that we are today, and how we can become the people that we want to be tomorrow. There is a underlying logic and structure to all of this. The word psychology is basically the logic of the psyche.

    2. AMAmrutash Misra59:44

       Mm.

    3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman59:44

       It's the study of the mind. So that's definitely one thing that's helped. The other is, you used the word empathy earlier. Uh, definitely the empathy. I mean, today, when I look at people, including and foremost myself, who sometimes struggle to deal with expectation, to deal with pressure, to be on a treadmill, to take every joyful decision and new chapter that we really yearn and hope for, and then we get into the chapter, and then we make it a treadmill.

    4. AMAmrutash Misra1:00:15

       Yeah.

    5. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:00:15

       We become masters at taking joy and making it-

    6. AMAmrutash Misra1:00:19

       Competitive.

    7. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:00:20

       Competitive.

    8. AMAmrutash Misra1:00:20

       Gamifying it.

    9. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:00:21

       Yeah, gamifying-

    10. AMAmrutash Misra1:00:22

        Yeah

    11. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:00:23

        ... joy to such a degree that it loses the juice.

    12. AMAmrutash Misra1:00:26

        Yeah. Correct.

    13. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:00:27

        So-

    14. AMAmrutash Misra1:00:27

        You got seven game joy points today. [clapping] [laughing]

    15. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:00:32

        This laugh was my eighth. [laughing]

    16. AMAmrutash Misra1:00:35

        [laughing]

    17. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:00:37

        So to, uh, along with the logic of h- how human consciousness evolves, also the empathy for what we as, uh, engineers or non-engineers in our twenties, thirties, forties, fifties in growing up in India-... or for a large part, Asia, are going through right now inside, in our minds, in our hearts, in our bodies. So logic and empathy, certainly, I would say, have been my, uh, gifts that I've received from IIT Madras. And finally, community.

    18. AMAmrutash Misra1:01:17

        Yeah.

    19. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:01:17

        The work that fulfills me, part of the work that fulfills me is the HHS course. And to come back to this campus, it's just amazing. I mean, as I look around this venue also, I don't know if people on camera can actually look behind, but there's a hyperloop freight transport, high speed device being built by students here. There's two rockets in the background there. There's a cross-country solar racing car here.

    20. AMAmrutash Misra1:01:44

        And the facility is paid for by a alumni donation.

    21. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:01:49

        Alumni-

    22. AMAmrutash Misra1:01:49

        Just to bring back that earlier point of, uh, you know, HNI is donating.

    23. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:01:53

        Giving back.

    24. AMAmrutash Misra1:01:54

        Yeah.

    25. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:01:54

        Yeah, exactly, right? Like, uh, the, what happens when we give a bit of what we have. There's a Formula Bharat, uh, car in being engineered and built there.

    26. AMAmrutash Misra1:02:05

        Yeah.

    27. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:02:06

        So, uh, yeah, absolutely. Uh, finding abundance in our lives and helping others find abundance for their lives, ironically and counterintuitively, comes by giving. Uh, abundance comes by giving, not hoarding. Uh, because when we give, we also realize how much actually we do have.

    28. AMAmrutash Misra1:02:29

        Yeah.

    29. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:02:30

        Um, and how much has come about because of some kind soul's-

    30. AMAmrutash Misra1:02:34

        Yeah
30. 1:04:00 – 1:06:44

    Seeking Help and Self-Development

    1. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:04:00

       Uh, I would-

    2. AMAmrutash Misra1:04:01

       Yeah.

    3. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:04:01

       It's possible, certainly, that, um, life bestows you with the right environment and the right ingredients for you to find your fulfillment by yourself. It's a small percentage.

    4. AMAmrutash Misra1:04:18

       Mm.

    5. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:04:18

       Um, just looking at empirical statistics from people that I have worked with, um, it's a small percentage because, uh, the mind can very quickly end up being its own, um, its own nemesis-

    6. AMAmrutash Misra1:04:35

       Yeah

    7. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:04:36

       ... and echo. Um, because the mind actually doesn't know the answer to happiness.

    8. AMAmrutash Misra1:04:43

       Um.

    9. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:04:44

       Happiness is not a logical equation to be solved.

    10. AMAmrutash Misra1:04:48

        Yeah.

    11. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:04:48

        Uh, so you do need someone to mirror you. You do need something to show you a mirror. It could be, to your point and to what we were saying earlier, that the teachers are everywhere. It could be a coach that you take on, it could be your life partner, it could be your child, it could be your parent. One of my teachers, he says, "If you think you're enlightened, just go visit your family again, [chuckles] uh, and wait for the triggers to come up," uh-

    12. AMAmrutash Misra1:05:16

        Yeah

    13. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:05:16

        ... "that happens in such a situation." What this, uh, discussion is pointing to is, um, ask for help when you need it, if you need it. If you become aware that you need the help, ask for it. Maybe it's not a coach for your mental well-being or a therapist that you need. Maybe you need a nutrition coach-

    14. AMAmrutash Misra1:05:39

        Yeah

    15. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:05:40

        ... uh, or maybe you need a sounding board for the next startup that you're thinking of building. Uh, but building together, uh-

    16. AMAmrutash Misra1:05:49

        Yeah

    17. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:05:49

        ... and leaning on people-

    18. AMAmrutash Misra1:05:51

        Yeah

    19. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:05:51

        ... is the-

    20. AMAmrutash Misra1:05:52

        It's not a-

    21. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:05:52

        -big idea.

    22. AMAmrutash Misra1:05:53

        It's, it's not a world where... I mean, nobody is really self-made. Everybody has had help from other people-

    23. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:06:00

        Mm

    24. AMAmrutash Misra1:06:01

        ... either formal help or informal help.

    25. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:06:03

        Mm. Yeah, it's, that's true. It's, it's a, a Buddhist, uh, uh, definition or, or underlying principle of reality, that reality is interdependent. Exactly what you said-

    26. AMAmrutash Misra1:06:16

        Yeah

    27. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:06:17

        ... which is, nobody is, uh, self-made. No one has, uh, crossed the great waters alone-

    28. AMAmrutash Misra1:06:23

        Yeah

    29. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:06:23

        ... as one of my teachers would say.

    30. AMAmrutash Misra1:06:25

        And even a rank one at IITM or, uh, or, or the top salaried person who got the best job, he's had a lot of help from his, uh, family, his, uh, peers, his, uh, professors.
31. 1:06:44 – 1:11:13

    Sriram's father's inspiring journey of lifelong learning

    1. AMAmrutash Misra1:06:45

       I want to end by saying that, first of all, your journey is very inspirational, but your dad's journey is [chuckles] way more inspirational to me. Uh, can you... A- and of course, I've heard you say it before. Can you just say that part, uh, and what your dad has been able to do?

    2. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:06:59

       Sure. So, uh, my dad, um, [clear throat] after he worked in a bank after he got out of college-... And he worked for three decades in the State Bank of Mysore, and he quit after 32 years with a voluntary retirement. You remember there was a VRS?

    3. AMAmrutash Misra1:07:19

       VRS schemes, yeah.

    4. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:07:20

       Uh, so he took that, and he studied law. Uh, at the age of fifty-six, he enrolled as a bachelor's student in an LLB program in Bangalore University and became a lawyer, then went on to do his diploma at the National Law School in Intellectual Property, and today he is an advocate with the High Court of Karnataka. Um, and I remember when he decided to make that shift from... So probably the, the genes or the DNA of going off a beaten path comes from-

    5. AMAmrutash Misra1:08:03

       Come from your dad.

    6. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:08:04

       Dad. Uh, but I remember us as a family dissuading him, uh, and saying, "Pa, like, you've worked for thirty-two years-

    7. AMAmrutash Misra1:08:13

       Why don't you just relax?

    8. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:08:14

       ... Why are you- why don't you just relax?

    9. AMAmrutash Misra1:08:15

       Yeah.

    10. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:08:15

        Why are you, like, going through this?" Because at that time, in 2001, 2003, my brother was studying for JEE. I was studying for my boards, and my dad was studying for his law exam. [chuckles] My mother had had it at home.

    11. AMAmrutash Misra1:08:31

        [chuckles]

    12. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:08:31

        Uh, so I remember us telling him, "Pa, like, why are you doing this?" And, uh, within few years after graduation, like, he turned around and said, like, "Didn't I prove all of you wrong?"

    13. AMAmrutash Misra1:08:41

        Yeah.

    14. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:08:42

        We have not-

    15. AMAmrutash Misra1:08:43

        But this, uh, this, this idea that life is a lifelong learning process and, you know, you need to lea- lead by curiosity to find yourself and just there's a sense of exploration. Like, you shouldn't come and say, "JEE rank, done," or, "Job done, and this is who I am," but-

    16. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:08:59

        Mm

    17. AMAmrutash Misra1:09:00

        ... constantly evolving yourself, building yourself.

    18. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:09:03

        Yeah, and if you think about it, all you're doing is you are watering the seeds that have already generated the full-bloomed flower that you are. You got into IIT or JEE because of curiosity.

    19. AMAmrutash Misra1:09:15

        Yeah.

    20. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:09:15

        As much as we say, "No, I just went and, like, I did two years," if you think about those moments when you and I were, like, so leant over our desk and wondering, "How did, how did this-

    21. AMAmrutash Misra1:09:23

        Burning the midnight oil.

    22. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:09:25

        Burning the midnight oil. It's actually curiosity to say, "Oh, like, this is how this becomes this."

    23. AMAmrutash Misra1:09:30

        Yeah.

    24. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:09:31

        And so once we come to campus, and that's what I love about facilities like this in IIT Madras, um, there's so many gardens where you can take your curiosity, your sapling of curiosity to, and there are so many gardeners around you. Um, let the... Let it bloom. Uh, let a, a flower, a tree, a garden, a forest of curiosity bloom. And, uh, you're right. Yeah, life is... It took me a while, to be honest, to realize that life is-

    25. AMAmrutash Misra1:10:01

        Mm

    26. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:10:01

        ... constant learning, and there's no sense of arriving, uh-

    27. AMAmrutash Misra1:10:05

        Yeah

    28. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:10:05

        ... at least for the mind. Um, the heart can arrive and say that, "Yeah, I'm now home." The mind will never understand arrival by the very definition of-

    29. AMAmrutash Misra1:10:15

        Definition of

    30. SKSriram Kalyanaraman1:10:16

        ... its, uh, functionality. It's constantly moving. So yeah, thank you for bringing that. And, um, yeah, such gratitude for, uh, Dad, Mum-

Episode duration: 1:11:14