Sriram Kalyanaraman| "What job would you do if you were not paid any money to do it?"| Ep. 21

Sriram Kalyanaraman 0:00 What job would you do if you were not paid any money? Abundance comes by giving, not hoarding, uh, because when we give, we also realize how much actually we do have.

Amrutash Misra 0:10 Nobody is really self-made. Everybody has had help from other people.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 0:14 Life is a journey of eternal humbling. [upbeat music]

Amrutash Misra 0:30 Hi, my name is Amrut. We've heard that IIT Madras is the best place to build. [upbeat music] So we've come down to the Sudha and Shankar Innovation Hub. We want to meet some people. These are builders. We want to talk to them about their work and also ask them: What makes IIT Madras the best place to build? [upbeat music] Hi, welcome to the Best Place to Build podcast.

Amrutash Misra 1:05 I'm Amrut. I'm sitting with Sriram, a friend of mine from twenty more, more than twenty years, also known as KK. He was a student here at IIT Madras from two thousand and three to 'seven, Computer Science batch. Joined McKinsey, which was, at the time, the top job off campus, uh, and later, uh, studied again at the Kennedy School for Government at Harvard. Today, runs the Amaidhi School for Transformation. Welcome, Sriram.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:29 Thank you. Thank you for having me here.

Amrutash Misra 1:33 Lots to cover.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:34 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 1:35 Um-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:36 May I-- Actually, may I begin with a question?

Amrutash Misra 1:39 Okay.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:39 When you asked me to come to this podcast, honestly, the first question that came up was: Why is he asking me to be on this podcast? Because this is about best place to build, and I've usually thought of building and this podcast, uh, to be about entrepreneurship.

Amrutash Misra 2:00 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 2:00 So why did you ask me to be here?

Amrutash Misra 2:02 Fair enough. I mean, when you hear the word build, uh, people think of bridges, cars, robots, and maybe today, AI foundational models. Uh, but we have been trying to, uh, promote this idea that the word build is a little more broad-based. Uh, we do talk about building ourselves, building our network, our resilience, our, um, uh, our mindsets, our attitudes, and I think your work in that area has been quite significant. Um, yeah, is that a satisfactory answer?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 2:35 Yeah, yeah, it is, it is.

Amrutash Misra 2:37 Um-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 2:38 It is.

Amrutash Misra 2:38 I feel like we should start with this. Um, you were at, uh, IIT Madras,

Amrutash Misra 2:43 uh, Computer Science, and later at McKinsey, and later at, uh, Kennedy School of Government. All these places, people who walk through them, there are some expectations that you will come out and do something, and you've almost always defied the expectations. Contrarian decisions. So I want to ask you, um, doesn't that take a lot of confidence, uh, and aren't you taking a lot of risks? Like, how did you get through the decisions where three times in your life you've taken a very different decision than what people would have expected you to?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 3:15 Yeah, you're right. It, it takes some level of knowing oneself and being curious about, uh, what it is that, uh, I want at each stage. Uh, I remember when I got into IIT, the vision was very clear in my head: Uh, go to the US, do a master's, work somewhere for two years, do an MBA, and become a CEO by thirty-five. And-

Amrutash Misra 3:39 Also, for additional context, your brother was also in IIT Madras.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 3:41 He was, he was.

Amrutash Misra 3:42 And your rank was fifty-one.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 3:44 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 3:45 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 3:45 It was, it was. His rank was twenty-two.

Amrutash Misra 3:48 Is it? [laughing]

Sriram Kalyanaraman 3:50 Yeah. [laughing]

Amrutash Misra 3:51 That's amazing. Okay.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 3:52 So, um, I always had this image coming into IIT that I'd go down the tech path, and then go into management, and then become a CEO. Um, and yes, you're right. I... Actually, this morning when you pointed out the pattern to me is when it became clear in that kind of language, which is each of these places has a set path, and I've done almost exactly the opposite. I suppose the work that I've been doing, and I am doing right now, has been calling me. It's been calling me from within for a long time, and, uh, each place was just another, uh, test bed

Sriram Kalyanaraman 4:33 to discover and convince myself that this is actually what I really want to do, which is help people through the work of inner development and self-transformation.

Amrutash Misra 4:44 Can we take a pause there? Can you just explain to us the work you do now so that everybody has context?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 4:49 Sure. So the work I do, uh, today is, uh, you could call it inner transformation. It is helping an individual find their true self, find their full potential, and then, as one of our alums, Deepak Jayaraman says, "Play to that potential." Um, it's, it's about understanding what comes in the way of me pursuing my dreams. Uh, often, for some people, it's something to do with the mind. Either we are anxious, busy, stressed, uh, undecided, lot of self-doubt, and that comes in the way of taking a big decision and taking that leap forward. For some people, it's an interpersonal challenge. Uh, I wanna be a leader, I want to work with many people, but I get triggered, or I struggle to inspire people or motivate people. Uh, and for... So the challenges may be quite diverse and widespread. The core is helping a person and understand what the challenges in the way of that are, and how do I overcome those challenges? Uh, how do I play to my full potential? That's the core work.... it obviously has application in the corporate world, where I work with founders, CEOs, leaders of companies. Also in the student community, because students are struggling with, uh, mental health challenges, a lot of pressure of expectation-

Amrutash Misra 6:20 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 6:20 - like you mentioned. Uh, and then in outside of all of this, in relationships, uh, if I want to make a career shift, uh, has wide application. So that's the work that I do today.

Amrutash Misra 6:32 Okay. All of this broadly under the idea of inner transformation, so building yourself

Amrutash Misra 6:38 and-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 6:38 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 6:38 Stuff like that.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 6:39 I'd say inner healing and inner transformation.

Amrutash Misra 6:42 Okay.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 6:42 And by the word 'healing', we're simply saying there are some things that have happened to me in my past, the weight, the burden of which I still carry somewhere within me, and how do I let go of that? How do I heal that? Just like if you had a wound on the skin, and over time, the skin binds itself and heals and becomes whole again. Same thing with the personality. You go through a difficult moment in your life, something happens, there's a tear, a fracture line in your personality. How do we help that become whole and heal again? And then how do we move into transformation?

Amrutash Misra 7:17 Nice. So cool. So you were saying that ... [chuckles] So we were talking about contrarian decisions-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 7:24 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 7:24 - about how you go to a place

Amrutash Misra 7:26 ...

Sriram Kalyanaraman 7:26 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 7:27 And especially, I think, when people enter IIT, because IIT was, IITs were set up for nation transformation by Nehru, and then you walk in and you're, like, almost given this burden that, "Okay, now you're going to change the world. You're going to change your community or your family and, uh, build the nation," and so on. So there's, there's, like, there's, like, a expectation right from the beginning, right?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 7:48 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 7:49 And I guess, um, what does it take to make those contrarian decisions, saying that, "You know what? This- I'm not gonna take this path, but I'm gonna find myself here, take a different path?"

Sriram Kalyanaraman 8:00 Mm. I'd say two things. The first is shifting attention from being entirely focused on the outer world to inward attention. Being curious about: What gives me joy? What makes me excited? As one of my mentors, he asks a question: "What job would you do if you were not paid any money-

Amrutash Misra 8:22 Mm

Sriram Kalyanaraman 8:22 ... to do it?" So, uh, looking for what energizes you from inside, so that it's not just something on the outside that's motivating me. That's one aspect, shifting from outward attention to inward. And the second is the supportive ecosystem that this shift is happening in. Uh, in my case, parents, long before the JEE, had given me the permission and license to say, uh, "Yeah, you seem to be doing well. You seem to be focused on your academic efforts," which was important to them. And once that became clear, uh, they stepped back and gave me the space to discover what I wanted to do, and they've always supported, uh, elder brother included, uh, always supported what I've wanted to do. So I'd say those two: support and inward attention.

Amrutash Misra 9:14 Sure. As you're saying it, I feel like, uh, sometimes I've interacted with students now, and, uh, first of all, there's a lot of peer pressure. Uh, I- and a lot of students come through the JEE coaching system, so the pressure actually starts-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 9:28 Much earlier

Amrutash Misra 9:28 ... two, three, four years earlier. Uh, and, uh, uh, even within campus, I've heard students talk about how they're under pressure from their parents to get a more paying job. Uh, of course, the pay- paid, uh, variations with on campus are quite high.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 9:45 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 9:45 Like, somebody may get a one crore offer, somebody may get a 20 lakh offer, somebody may get a, a, a, or somebody joining a start-up is probably making much lesser in, in promise of future gain, but whatever it is, at that time. So, um, yeah, a lot of depression on campus.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 10:02 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 10:02 So I really relate with what you're saying. Um, in this

Amrutash Misra 10:05 regard, I think y- you've done a lot of work with your colleagues, uh, on this course called Happiness, Success and Habits.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 10:12 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 10:12 Is that what it's called?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 10:13 Happiness, Habits and Success.

Amrutash Misra 10:15 Okay. Can you tell us what it is?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 10:17 Yeah. And, uh, before we come to the course, uh, I, I wanna expand on what you just said. The, uh, pressure, the pressure of ... And we were speaking about it earlier, uh, this twofold pressure that students go through, which is before the final competitive exams that move students from 12th standard to college, the pressure of rank. Uh-

Amrutash Misra 10:41 Mm

Sriram Kalyanaraman 10:41 ... having a great rank, making the cutoff.

Amrutash Misra 10:43 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 10:44 It's a huge pressure. I can even feel it on my shoulders building up-

Amrutash Misra 10:47 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 10:48 ... as I speak about it.

Amrutash Misra 10:49 Right.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 10:49 And then once you cross, and you've successfully crossed that milestone, it becomes the pressure of pay.

Amrutash Misra 10:56 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 10:56 Uh, and so well-intentioned by parents. Uh, we want our children to succeed, to thrive, to be taken care of. Uh, we've come from the worldview that money is significant, and it is significant, but, uh, we've probably come from the worldview that we need a lot of it to be safe and happy and healthy. Uh, so that pressure of, uh, rank and the pressure of pay, it's overwhelming. It's overwhelming for a student who's not had that break at all. And I remember when we finished our JEE at 5:30 p.m., at the end of that third paper, putting my pen down and saying, "Man, I'm, I'm done taking pressure for some external goal, external milestone in my life."

Amrutash Misra 11:44 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 11:45 Um, it's a significant pressure. Um, a study that was done, I think, six, seven years ago in Harvard-

Amrutash Misra 11:51 Mm

Sriram Kalyanaraman 11:52 ... uh, there was a task force set up for mental health. Uh, they discovered that about 20 to 30% of undergrad students report, self-report depression or, uh, feeling depressed.... uh, 20 to 30% report feeling anxious throughout-

Amrutash Misra 12:10 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 12:10 - their time on campus. This is probably true of every engineering college today-

Amrutash Misra 12:14 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 12:14 - because of this twofold pressure.

Amrutash Misra 12:16 Yeah. And, and can I just add-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 12:18 Yeah

Amrutash Misra 12:18 - that the AI era has exploded this because a lot of jobs are changing, and, uh, you may be in a field where you're not even sure, "If I graduate, what am I going to do?" So it's only increasing.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 12:31 Yeah, it's only increasing. And often, as a student, you're going through it alone on campus.

Amrutash Misra 12:38 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 12:38 That's the perceived experience of it, that, uh, my parents, my family are now away, and here I am on campus, and I don't know whom to lean on, m- uh, who my friends are, who my community is. So for this twofold reason, I would say, of pressure on campus and loneliness in campus, uh, this set up the foundation for why we started the course, Happiness, Habits and Success, to help give students an, a foundational understanding of what happiness means and what success means. Uh, and to find the habits and cultivate the habits that can make you both happy and productive at the same time. Again, research shows that, uh, the more positive-minded you are, the more of a positive outlook you have, the more likely you are to perform and outperform your peers. Uh, salesmen who had a positive outlook outperformed peers by a significant percentage. Doctors who are optimistic treat patients significantly better than pessimistic doctors. So that's the core idea, to tell students that there is a way to succeed, succeed beyond expectation, and that can also be a joyful journey. And-

Amrutash Misra 14:00 Sure

Sriram Kalyanaraman 14:00 ... that can be done in the company of peers and family and a support network.

Amrutash Misra 14:05 Actually, as you're saying it, I'm thinking when you start your JEE coaching, uh, you obviously think you're gonna get a really good rank, and then the process starts, right? So there's some humbling that happens through [chuckles] ... And then when you start your IIT journey, on day one, you're looking at your peers and like, "I'm gonna beat all of them. I'm gonna be the best. I'm gonna get, like, the best admit or the best pay outcome." And then, again, more humbling happens. And then even after, when you-- I think the pressure that many of us have gone through, we carry it through our, to our workplaces well into our 30s and 40s, right? Um, it's interesting how you're describing it. So wh- what does the course actually entail?

Amrutash Misra 14:49 Like, is it a semester-long? Is it... Like, can you tell us the mechanics of the course?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 14:53 Sure. As I hear you, uh, what comes up is, uh, life is a journey of eternal humbling. [chuckles] Uh, I remember same. When I came to IIT, I thought I was the cat's whiskers. [chuckles] Uh, uh, it doesn't help if we come in with a high rank, uh, and then we meet our peers-

Amrutash Misra 15:14 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 15:14 ... peers that we've been with. I went to Harvard. I thought, "Definitely the cat's whiskers here."

Amrutash Misra 15:21 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 15:21 Just absolutely humbled by the phenomenal capacity, potential of peers there. Uh, and then, uh, coming to McKinsey, uh, definitely the cat's whiskers here. And again, such inspiring people, such humble, inspiring people who are doing such great things. Not only when my peer consultants back then, but also the clients that we were serving, uh, leaders and owners of large businesses.

Amrutash Misra 15:48 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 15:48 So humble, so simple. So yes, life is a journey of eternal humbling. The mechanics of the course: it's a semester-long course. Um, it's come together through the efforts of several, several alum, and it's one of the things I absolutely love about, uh, IIT Madras. I think someone asked me some time back, "How is it that you guys have such a thriving alum network in IIT Madras?" Uh, I don't know the answer. It's probably because of people like you and the great contributions you are making.

Amrutash Misra 16:21 All of us. [chuckles]

Sriram Kalyanaraman 16:22 All of us. Uh, [clears throat] so many alums have come together to, uh, create the course, shape it, evolve it and deliver it. In fact, today, the course is delivered by several part-time facilitators who are contributing their time and attention, uh, to make this happen. It's also funded in part by alum who resourced and provided resources to run the course. Uh, and the construct, we have close to a bench, if you may call it, of 20, 25-plus facilitators. Um, at any point in a semester, we are running six to ten batches in parallel, each of which have anywhere between 40 to 200 students within a batch. Uh-

Amrutash Misra 17:11 So there's, like, 600 students taking this course?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 17:14 Every semester.

Amrutash Misra 17:15 Okay.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 17:15 Six hundred students on campus every semester going through this course. Um, and students enjoy it. We enjoy it. Uh, it is a course on happiness, so that's the construct. It's a three-credit or a nine-credit course in our current time-

Amrutash Misra 17:32 Okay, okay

Sriram Kalyanaraman 17:33 ... because the credit system-

Amrutash Misra 17:34 Credits have changed.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 17:35 Changed.

Amrutash Misra 17:36 So what-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 17:36 What used to be a three-credit course for us is today a nine-credit course.

Amrutash Misra 17:41 Okay.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 17:41 Uh, so it's a nine-credit course, uh, and very focused on experiential learning. So we're not covering so much the theory of exercise or the theory of happiness. We're actually getting students to do the activities that lead to better health-

Amrutash Misra 17:57 Can you give me one example?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 17:58 ... better happiness. So I, I, I'll give you two. [clears throat] In one class, uh, we teach, uh, the benefits of exercise.... students are asked to come dressed in, uh, tracks and shoes for that class. And before we begin the class, we go out in campus to do stretches or a run or cycle for 20, 30 minutes until our heart rate has built up to a point that's defined as exercise activity.

Amrutash Misra 18:28 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 18:29 And then students come back, they're all sweating, and we're back in our seats, sweaty, smelly room after that, and then we ask them: "How are you feeling? How are you feeling after physically exerting yourself to a healthy point for 20, 30 minutes?" And they've got it. You don't even need to run the theory after that anymore. So that's one example, teaching exercise through actually doing it, and then covering the benefits of exercise as we learn from s- research in neuroscience. Uh, and so that's one example. The other, which I really love, which we've evolved over the time, uh, we teach a module on gratitude, of just being grateful to yourself and to others for all that we have received. Otherwise, the pressure of rank and the pressure of pay-

Amrutash Misra 19:19 Mm

Sriram Kalyanaraman 19:19 ... can make us forget all that we have and be constantly looking at what we don't have, living a life of lack-

Amrutash Misra 19:26 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 19:26 ... and not sufficiency. So the module on gratitude, um, we get people to go and talk to their parents or a grandparent and ask them, what are they grateful for-

Amrutash Misra 19:41 Mm

Sriram Kalyanaraman 19:41 ... uh, at this stage in their life? Ask them about what their struggles have been and what their life journey has been, what, what are their beliefs on happiness and success. Students, almost every single time come back and tell us, "I'm so grateful that you made us do that, because I've lived with my grandparents, my parents, all my life-

Amrutash Misra 20:05 Mm

Sriram Kalyanaraman 20:05 ... and I've actually not found out what their journey was." Um, and it's great to know that you don't need to come to a college to learn. You can be learning at home, you can be learning at work. Life is a journey of continuous learning.

Amrutash Misra 20:20 Yeah, yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 20:20 And your teachers are... Exactly wherever you are, there are three, four teachers around you.

Amrutash Misra 20:24 Yeah. Yeah, uh, I'm, [chuckles] sorry. Welling up. Um-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 20:30 If I may ask, why?

Amrutash Misra 20:32 No, just I think it's, uh, very emotional. Uh, and I'll, I'll also say this, um, in Insti, um, or in any engineering college, I guess, it may not be specific to Insti, mm, there's an expectation that you've come to learn, and there's a competitive atmosphere, and you have to do these courses, you have to excel at your skills. There's almost like a heavy focus on hard skills.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 20:56 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 20:56 Pick this up, pick that up, pick this up, pick that up. So it's very unique what you're doing, right?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 21:00 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 21:00 And, um, I'm just going back and thinking of the kind of person I was in college, and I don't know if I like that person. [chuckles] Like, so I, I don't know if you have the same experience, but you look back and you're like: Why was I so competitive? Why was I so sort of, um... I think the word we use in Insti is RG.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 21:17 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 21:18 Right? Um, which for those of you who don't know, uh, I mean, it, it's relative grading, uh, because in a class, the scores are given, uh, as percentages. So many percent can get an S, so many percent can get an A-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 21:31 Mm

Amrutash Misra 21:31 ... and so on. So relative grading basically means that you may, um, withhold information from a peer so that they get a lesser, uh, grade than you.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 21:42 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 21:43 Um, I think it's changed over campus a lot, but that's what it was in our

Amrutash Misra 21:48 time, right?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 21:48 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 21:49 So I'm just, uh, I... So the reason why I was welling up was, um, just thinking of how little we at our times may ... I guess your course is one of those things that have changed, uh, the, the thing on campus now. But there was so much emphasis on engineering, hard skills, very little on soft skills, right?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 22:11 Mm. Very true. Very true. And two things come up. The, the first I'll say, you said your course, I'd say our course. Just like you said, we are building this campus.

Amrutash Misra 22:24 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 22:24 Um, our course, um, is, is one of a bouquet of courses. In fact, today, IIT Madras offers a minor degree in PPD, Personal and Professional Development, where if you've done some of the courses in the bouquet, uh, you get a minor degree in PPD instead of some of the other hard disciplines, as you called it. Uh, m- first-year students go through a course called the Life Skills course. It's a mandatory course on campus today. So all incoming fresher students, undergrad students, go through the Life Skills course. It's a semester-long course again. Uh, there's the Happiness course. There's a course on, uh, unlocking creativity. Uh, there's a course on nurturing relationships, enriching your relationships. And, uh, we often find in the workplace, you and I may have experienced it, I've heard so many of our peers today talk about it, that students who come out of engineering colleges don't seem to be work-ready.

Amrutash Misra 23:29 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 23:30 And this whole PPD minor and the efforts to put in these courses-

Amrutash Misra 23:34 By the way, that work-ready doesn't mean skill-wise, it means soft skill-wise.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 23:38 Soft skill-wise.

Amrutash Misra 23:39 Not able to work in a team, not able to take feedback-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 23:42 Exactly

Amrutash Misra 23:42 ... things like that.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 23:43 Exactly. Yeah. Uh, soft skill-ready at work. Uh, so, um, uh, the PPD, Personal and Professional Development, uh, minor at, uh, IIT, IIT Madras is unique in this. I don't know of a single other IIT campus, it may be my ignorance, but as far as I know, uh, no other campus has a degree in personal development and professional development to help prepare students from a soft skills perspective to excel in, uh, the workplace. And-... uh, as the saying goes, right? IQ gets you the job, EQ gets you the promotions.

Amrutash Misra 24:21 Mm, nice.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 24:21 [chuckles]

Amrutash Misra 24:22 But can I push you a bit on that? I mean, when we were on campus, I, I did say that we didn't have formal soft skill courses, but we had dramatics, we had, uh, Saarang Shastra. We did work together. We learned it on, on the go.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 24:34 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 24:34 And is it fair for parents, and maybe administrators also, to push back saying, "Hey, you joined IIT to pick up this hard skills, the engineering-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 24:42 Yeah

Amrutash Misra 24:43 ... and maybe the soft skills are your responsibility. You pick it up on your own, or you-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 24:46 Mm

Amrutash Misra 24:46 ... figure out how you're going to do it, or we put you in a residential campus, you are... It'll happen anyway."

Sriram Kalyanaraman 24:53 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 24:53 Is that a fair criticism?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 24:55 Probably. Uh, I don't know. I don't know. So that perspective says that, uh, you came to an engineering college, and we are teaching you the hard skills. Figure the soft skills on your own. Um, think the challenge in this day and age is also the, uh, pandemic of, uh, technology-

Amrutash Misra 25:19 Mm

Sriram Kalyanaraman 25:19 ... and having cell phones and devices. In our time, it was easy to do that because there was not a phone in our pockets to be looking at all the time.

Amrutash Misra 25:30 Sure.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 25:30 The organic soft skill development was well-enabled because the way to spend time was to hang out with people-

Amrutash Misra 25:39 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 25:39 ... uh, learn about opportunities, interests, go out and do them. Whereas today it's changed-

Amrutash Misra 25:43 Fair. I remember these long arguments we have had on campus, and the amount of, uh... Like, sort of like when you have a really long six-hour, eight-hour long ar- argument with someone on something, um, you learn a lot about your own arguing skills, your own patience-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 26:00 Mm

Amrutash Misra 26:01 ... your own ability to form logic. I don't think s- people spend six, eight hours now because they're on their phone.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 26:06 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 26:07 Is that what you're saying?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 26:07 Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Exactly.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 26:10 Uh, so in an age where student attention is, and time is going so much into digital screens, we do need structured interventions and offerings that help them come out of that. And in fact, one of the biggest positive feedbacks we get from students who've gone through the HHS course... Even, uh, two weeks back, I did one-on-ones with students, along with my peers, for, uh, students going through this semester, and I asked them: "What are you enjoying the most about the course?" About half of them say, "The opportunity to interact with my peer student and find out what he or she is going through, and know that I'm not alone. I'm not alone. I used to think that I'm the only one dealing with all of these pressures, and it's great to know that almost everyone is going through some of this." So we do need those structured offerings, in my view.

Amrutash Misra 27:08 I, I want to add a little bit here.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 27:10 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 27:11 Um, and this is my opinion. Um, sometimes what happens is that, like, if it's not the school's res- maybe if you're going to a coaching kind of school, it's not the school's responsibility to teach you soft skills, and then it's definitely not the workplace's responsibility, because you're going there to perform. So if everybody says, "It's not my responsibility to-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 27:30 Mm

Amrutash Misra 27:31 ... help you with soft skills," then whose responsibility is it?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 27:33 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 27:33 Like, you've fallen through the gaps because nobody's taken that effort, right?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 27:37 Mm. Mm.

Amrutash Misra 27:37 Uh, and it's incidental. Sometimes it happens, and sometimes it doesn't. And so having a structured system at least helps everyone start thinking about it, right?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 27:46 I agree. I was actually, uh, speaking with, um, a few founders recently of a tech company, and, um, I was telling them: why is it that parents put so much pressure on a student to get a high rank and get a high pay, high-paying job? It's because their assumption is that once I get my kids into college, and once they get a good job, they are no longer my responsibility. It's true, right? Like, there's almost an unconscious assumption that I'm handing over my children now to the real world-

Amrutash Misra 28:26 Okay

Sriram Kalyanaraman 28:27 ... to the workplace, to be taken care of. And there's an implicit trust, which is unspoken, that this place that is taking my child now is going to take care of them in the same way as I am.

Amrutash Misra 28:41 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 28:42 And that's not true. Like, workplaces-

Amrutash Misra 28:44 Yeah, not true

Sriram Kalyanaraman 28:45 ... that, to your point, don't take on that responsibility-

Amrutash Misra 28:48 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 28:48 ... of developing the-

Amrutash Misra 28:49 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 28:49 ... persons who are coming in. So much pressure, the pressure continues to build up. We hear about, uh, mental health situations, sometimes extreme, even in that world. Uh, so I was sharing with these founders that it is the workplace's responsibility to help people also become healthier, happier, while contributing to the success and profits of the organization.

Amrutash Misra 29:12 That's amazing. Uh, I read this article, uh, which spoke about this change in the nature of employee-employer relationship. Uh, 20, 30 years back, the employer was considered like, "I'm going here to spend a lot of time, and there will be... Like, I will join a family," or something like that.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 29:30 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 29:31 Today, it's like, "I'm going here for a two-year mission."

Sriram Kalyanaraman 29:34 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 29:34 "We are... With my colleagues, I'm going to fight some war." I mean, not real war, but, like, some corporate war. "And then after that, I will go f- join some other mission in some other company, and then it's another two years." So it's become very sort of like, um, we are here together now, but it's almost implicit that me and my colleagues are going to see each other only for two years, and then I will move, and he will move-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 29:56 Mm

Amrutash Misra 29:57 ... or she will move or something.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 29:59 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 29:59 Right? So, uh, yeah, nature of workplace transactions.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 30:03 Yeah, and, and if that is the new reality, uh, and for whatever reason, it's helping the, uh, global ecosystem right now to organize that way, I would say workplaces still have the opportunity to, uh, become universities for those two years.

Amrutash Misra 30:22 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 30:22 Uh, what if someone coming into my workplace, uh, was also learning, growing-

Amrutash Misra 30:29 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 30:29 ... developing, and-... for sure, between two workplaces that are, uh, equally or equivalently comparable, uh, a person is going to choose the place where they're likely to learn, grow, and develop.

Amrutash Misra 30:43 We hope.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 30:44 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 30:44 Unless the other one pays, like, 3x more. [clapping]

Sriram Kalyanaraman 30:49 [laughing] Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 30:50 Uh, yeah, this is amazing. Uh, I wanna ask you, so I hear you saying that the, the sort of the overall trigger for the course to get started was, uh-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 31:00 Mm

Amrutash Misra 31:00 ... student depression, um, on campus, before campus, maybe even alumni depression. Um, and, and the response came from a set of alumni-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 31:10 Mm

Amrutash Misra 31:10 ... a professor who made this course. But what was the inciting incident like? At some point, somebody must have said, "Let's do this," or-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 31:17 Mm, mm

Amrutash Misra 31:17 ... "Let's think of this," right? Like, how did it come to be?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 31:21 Um, so Professor Shivakumar, Shiva. Anbudan Shiva, as we-

Amrutash Misra 31:26 Who was my hostel warden, by the way.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 31:28 Oh, uh, Anbudan Shiva, who, uh, as we call him with affection. Uh, for those who don't know, Anbudan Shiva in Tamil translates to Shiva with love. So, uh, [clears throat] he was, at the time in 2017, um, he was dean students on campus, and this was his second tenure. And he was already noticing that there was a growing, uh, loneliness, student struggle with pressure, expectations, et cetera, on this campus. Uh, and he was probably noticing ahead of time what most other campuses today are also now aware of.

Amrutash Misra 32:13 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 32:13 Uh, he came... At the time, uh, there was a, a gentleman, Prashant Vasu, my-- one of my mentors and seniors at McKinsey, who was teaching meditation workshops on campus on Saturdays. And so Shiva came to Prashant and said, uh, "Hey, what if we did something about the struggles that students are going through, the mental health struggles students are going through? You teach meditation, so why don't you brainstorm and come up with something?" So it was Prashant's idea that, um, a course that's focused on, uh, positivity and happiness could work. At the time, I was quite actively doing the work of leadership development and human transformation at McKinsey. So Prashant came up, and I remember the aisle conversation at office that day, seven years ago, eight years ago, where he said, "Hey, uh, would you be interested in doing something for campus?" We are both alums. Prashant is an... I think he's a '90, uh, two alum or a '93 alum. And, uh, I said, "Yeah, sure." And we got into a room with two students from IT Madras who had just joined McKinsey, uh, recently. So the four of us sat and started brainstorming what this would look like. We drew on the research of positive psychology that has come from, uh, largely the West right now. In particular, um, Dr Martin Seligman, who is considered one of the fathers of positive psychology at, uh, UPenn, the University of Pennsylvania. Decades of work to show that, um, there is a, a lot to be learned by studying people who are happy and understanding what their habits and their characteristics are. And one of his students, Shawn Achor, who had written a book called The Happiness Advantage, which then became our textbook, uh, to understand what's the research in this space, uh, what are the practices and the simple habits that can help us be healthier, happier, more successful. Uh, so that was the journey, and the insight was probably that habits are the master key here.

Amrutash Misra 34:27 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 34:28 The idea that the brain, uh, previously it used to be believed that the brain grows and evolves like this as we become adults, and then plateaus. Um, but the last two and a half decades of research in neuroscience tell us that the brain is actually continuously evolving.

Amrutash Misra 34:46 Okay.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 34:46 And we can rewire our own brain through conscious intention and habitual practice. That's what research tells us. So that was probably the insight that, along with Shiva's discovery of the need for on campus, came together, and with Shawn Achor's research, uh, helped us begin this

Sriram Kalyanaraman 35:09 journey.

Amrutash Misra 35:09 So and I think a-after that, many other alumni got involved, and-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 35:12 That, and that's the most amazing thing to me. It's, it's... I still can't-- It feels like a real miracle, like angels coming together. When, when we started, Prashant and I, I remember we would come to the placement office. They had a room there that they would loan us, twenty-five students in the first semester that we began with. Um, and then Shiva and Prashant, uh, had this idea of making this an open, inclusive, uh, process. So, uh, alums slowly started stepping in. We had, uh, Sathya Sriram, uh, who coincidentally is a non-alum, uh, and, uh, a PhD in neuroscience who came in, um, Sridhar, uh, who came in after that, uh, who's been an alum and currently the-

Amrutash Misra 35:57 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 35:58 ... um, heads, leads the-

Amrutash Misra 36:00 Alumni

Sriram Kalyanaraman 36:01 ... Alumni Affairs Association. So a lot of people who've come in, and over the time, we've also included... So the early folks who came in were, uh, engineering alums, and all of us came into this [chuckles] course-

Amrutash Misra 36:14 [chuckles]

Sriram Kalyanaraman 36:14 ... a little like noobs, right? Which is, "So what's this mind stuff?"

Amrutash Misra 36:21 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 36:21 "And what's this brain stuff?" [laughing]

Amrutash Misra 36:23 Let's fix it.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 36:23 And, uh, and-

Amrutash Misra 36:24 Let's do a root cause analysis.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 36:25 Let's just do a root cause analysis, and that's the

Sriram Kalyanaraman 36:28 beauty. There is a logic to inner transformation.

Amrutash Misra 36:31 Okay.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 36:31 Uh, there is a logic and reasoning to how transformation works. Um, and-...

Sriram Kalyanaraman 36:38 And so that was the first group, and it was a revelation to them. To your point, I don't know how many of us were depressed as alumni when we came in, but people I speak to today, uh, teaching this course is such a big source of joy for all of us, joy and fulfillment. Over the last seven years, at, at the end of the year, I would always rank what were my top two or three, um, most joyful, most fulfilling, uh, offerings and experiences this year. Teaching Happiness Habits and Success at IIT Madras was always consistently in the top three every year. And over time, that bench has now also begun to draw,

Sriram Kalyanaraman 37:19 and we are blessed to have, uh, younger folks, as well as, uh, people from a psychology, a coaching, a neuroscience background. So a much larger background, more diverse of a pool of facilitators now that we have, and I'm super excited for the future of where this is heading. Our intention, uh, is to reach every student on campus.

Amrutash Misra 37:44 Very nice.

Amrutash Misra 37:45 Can I just say this? You started with a twenty-five people course. Your first course was only twenty-five people, and now you have six hundred people in your course.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 37:51 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 37:52 I've heard this from someone else. [chuckles] Professor Ravindran, who teaches reinforcement learning. His first reinforcement learning had, like, six, ten, ten students, like, fifteen years back, and now it has, like, six hundred students.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 38:04 Wow!

Amrutash Misra 38:05 So-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 38:05 Wow.

Amrutash Misra 38:05 -the kind of explosion... I, I, it's interesting because it, it feels like that many students on campus care about it and think about it, and it's cool.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 38:14 Amazing.

Amrutash Misra 38:15 I've also heard from alumni who have heard the course description and have said, "Hey, we want to take the course." Um, has that happened to you?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 38:23 It has. We actually ran an alum batch, the batch of 1985, who are what? In their late fifties now. During the pandemic, uh, we, we ran a, a four-month online version of the course, um, and we had such good, positive feedback from that group, uh, for basically the same reasons. People were so happy that they could come back together and interact with their peers in a different way. Uh, not just ask about the, "Hey, how are you? How's family-

Amrutash Misra 38:58 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 38:58 -work, children?" But also, uh, "How are you?"

Amrutash Misra 39:02 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 39:03 "How are you, uh, three decades on from campus? How is everything going within...?" Uh, that was one big reason, and the other was, again, the revelation that, yeah, uh, life has now shown me that habits matter, and I now have a way of understanding it and going through it.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 39:21 Having said all that, I do wanna add one of the, uh, failure modes or challenges with habit building and habit formation is, again, the pressure of-

Amrutash Misra 39:31 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 39:31 ... "Oh, my God!" Like, okay-

Amrutash Misra 39:33 Oh, yeah, does the course have a grade?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 39:34 Huh?

Amrutash Misra 39:35 Does the course-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 39:35 It does have a grade. [laughing] It does have a grade. Um, it's... However, the course is designed such that it's not relative grading.

Amrutash Misra 39:47 Okay.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 39:47 So we release the pressure of competitiveness from, uh, from the course structure. Um, but in habit formation, one of the common challenges is I was meditating, or I was going to the gym four days in a row, three weeks, and suddenly last week, I didn't go a single day. I've just lost the-

Amrutash Misra 40:09 Oh.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 40:10 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 40:11 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 40:11 So this idea that, um-

Amrutash Misra 40:13 So you're competitively trying to force a habit.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 40:16 Yeah, forcing a habit on yourself.

Amrutash Misra 40:18 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 40:19 The idea that, uh, consistency in habits is equal to hundred percent, twenty-four/seven, always on. And, uh, this is something I was sharing in the o- in the one-on-ones as well, and we shared this in the course. Um, consistency in relation to habit building is not hundred percent all the time. Consistency actually looks like hundred percent one day, eighty percent the second day, ninety-four percent the third day, thirty-three percent the fourth day. Consistency is showing up. Uh, it's not being perfect all the time, it's just showing up. So I do also wanna acknowledge, uh, that it's a very easy, joyful process to-

Amrutash Misra 41:03 Yes

Sriram Kalyanaraman 41:04 ... find the practices to go through life happily.

Amrutash Misra 41:07 Do you have a way to measure the impact of the course?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 41:10 We do. Uh, right when we began the course, we started with, um, having students do a baseline survey and an end line survey. We used two instruments, which these days I use even in my, uh, leadership coaching. The first is called the PSS instrument, Perceived Stress Score, and the second is called the MHWB, the Mental Health and Wellbeing, uh, Instrument. Both of these are, uh, psychologically and statistically well-tested instruments, reliable ways to assess, um... In statistics, I think it's called a Cronbach's alpha score, which measures the validity of an instrument. High Cronbach's alpha scores for these two. We get students to take the, uh, survey at the start of the course, and then at the end. What we find is that consistently there is a twenty to thirty percent uptick on how happy, uh, mentally healthy students are feeling, and how much lesser stress they are perceiving.

Amrutash Misra 42:08 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 42:08 So

Sriram Kalyanaraman 42:09 this is, I would say, just the first building block. We are in some way countering the Harvard finding, twenty, thirty percent students reporting depression. Through a course like this, twenty, thirty percent uptick in mental health and reduction in stress. There's a lot more that can be done.

Amrutash Misra 42:26 Sure.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 42:26 It requires the resources, the attention.

Amrutash Misra 42:29 I understand. If it was twenty percent down, then to actually get twenty percent up, you're still at the same level.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 42:34 Exactly.

Amrutash Misra 42:35 If it was forty percent up, then it would be-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 42:37 It would be.

Amrutash Misra 42:37 But, uh, let me ask you a totally

Amrutash Misra 42:39 different question, and-... you have a School for Transformation, you coach a lot of executives, you meet a lot of people. Do you feel that there's this sense in some people that if I'm happy or empathetic or kind, then my competitiveness becomes less?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 42:55 Mm. Mm.

Amrutash Misra 42:57 Do you think that sort of like, that idea exists?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 42:59 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 43:00 Yeah, it, it, it does. There's probably an unconscious, uh, script, uh, in the, uh, collective consciousness of society that, uh, "Kindness makes me weak. Empathy makes me less competitive," um-

Amrutash Misra 43:16 Happiness makes me complacent.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 43:17 Happiness makes me complacent, or celebrating success makes me complacent. Uh, I was speaking with someone three days back, a founder, and, um, the, he was sharing with me, "Sriram..." This is a CEO, again, of a tech company. "Sriram, I struggle to appreciate my people, even when, uh, they're doing really well. I want to, but I'm so wired to look at what's next and to build the company, that, uh, I find it almost impossible." And then people feel that they're not being appreciated or they are under-recognized, and different organizations have different ways of addressing this.

Amrutash Misra 43:56 As you're saying this, I remember this is so ingrained. I remember my class 10 teacher telling me, "I'm not going to congratulate you, because next test you'll do badly."

Sriram Kalyanaraman 44:05 Wow! Starts very early on.

Amrutash Misra 44:07 Very early.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 44:08 Very early on. It's ingrained in the collective psyche of society. Um, so, uh, [clears throat] it's a belief, and, uh, the belief that happiness can lead to success, uh, celebration can actually motivate a person to do even better. Empathy can unlock whatever is holding me back, another back, and increase the collective pie, the size of the collective pie. These are also beliefs.

Amrutash Misra 44:37 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 44:37 Uh, we are the chooser of the beliefs. Uh, we are not bound by anyone. We are not making a case of right and wrong here.

Amrutash Misra 44:46 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 44:46 Uh, we are saying, choose what works for you, and if what you want is happiness and success, positivity and profit, um, success and satisfaction, then choose those beliefs that work for you, and operate out of those beliefs.

Amrutash Misra 45:03 Sure. I get what you're saying. Um, um, as I'm saying, I, I think there's a broader context also as a country, as a society. We've been moving from a very resource-constrained-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 45:14 Mm

Amrutash Misra 45:15 ... environment to there are more resources now. For example, jobs on campus.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 45:18 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 45:19 There were very, very few jobs on campus earlier. Um, the competitiveness for those jobs was very, very high. Now, it's not like ev- it's not like everybody gets a one-crore offer, but at least it's more. It's, uh, less, um, competitive, and maybe... Uh, no, it's less, uh, constrained, the resources, and maybe, um, we don't need to behave the way we were behaving, uh, when the resources were very little.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 45:44 Yeah, it's a great point. As you say that, um, uh,

Sriram Kalyanaraman 45:49 Bill Gates and Warren Buffett's, uh, world philanthropy tour comes to mind. So, uh, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett went from country to country, meeting billionaires around the world, uh, urging and nudging and goading them to donate part of their wealth to philanthropy. And when they came back to the US, they had actually signed massive commitments, um, except from India and China, at least were two significant geographies where they said their discovery was these two geographies are not yet ready. Uh, the, the consciousness in these countries back then, uh, not yet ready for the wealthy to part with their wealth. Uh, and yes, a lot of wealthy people do philanthropy today. Times are changing, as you say. We are recognizing that India is no longer, uh, the, uh, we are no longer in the Hindu era.

Amrutash Misra 46:47 Y- you are talking about a story that's, like, five, maybe ten years ago, right?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 46:50 Yeah, ten years. Ten, twelve years, and we've grown and shifted and evolved significantly-

Amrutash Misra 46:55 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 46:55 ... since even the last decade and a half here. So, um, you're right. I, I love the message that it's time for us to wake up and to recognize where India has come as a country, and to claim all of the abundance that comes with that spot. Otherwise, we will just be perpetrating and reinforcing our own worldview of scarcity-

Amrutash Misra 47:18 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 47:18 ... uh, even though we have a lot to celebrate.

Amrutash Misra 47:20 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scarcity mindset, that's what it's called, right?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 47:23 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 47:24 Yeah. Um, wow! Okay,

Amrutash Misra 47:27 so I want to just dial back a bit. We-- you, you started [chuckles] your journey in IIT Madras, Computer Science, and we are talking of something completely different. We're not even talking of data structures, algorithms, or something. So can you give us a... Just to tie everything up, can you give us like a f- l- like a short run-through of your journey so far?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 47:46 Sure. So, um, JEE happened, and, uh, I came into IIT Madras and took Computer Science. Uh, I, uh, I remember the choice to take computer science was, uh, inspiration from elder brother. I remember the January of 2003, when we were giving the exam that year, he asked me, "If you get the rank of your choice, what department will you take?" And I told him, without batting an eyelid, I said, "Mechanical." He said, "No, no, if you get the rank of your choice, what department?" I said: "Mechanical." He said, "Why?" I said, "Because I like drawing, and mechanical engineering has a lot of, like, drawing-

Amrutash Misra 48:27 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 48:27 ... and visualizing."

Amrutash Misra 48:28 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 48:28 And he basically convinced me [chuckles] that, uh, uh, CS was a better idea. He asked me-- He told me, one, that "it's engineering drawing, it's not the kind of drawing I've seen you do growing up and enjoy." Uh, he asked me what I love. I said, "Drawing and mathematics." He said, "CS might be an option." That's how CS happened.... Over the four years, I tested the waters and, uh, became clear to me that, uh, this was not my cup of tea. Uh, I wasn't flowing, thriving. Something else was calling me, which was working with people. I wanted to be a lot more sleeves rolled up-

Amrutash Misra 49:03 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 49:03 ... in front of people, conversation, exactly what we are doing today.

Amrutash Misra 49:09 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 49:09 Um, and by grace, McKinsey happened. Um, again, that happened-- I threw many darts, uh, on the board as a fourth-year student. I took GRE, I applied... I was beginning to apply for, uh, master's programs in colleges. I, uh, gave the CAT, uh, on a last-minute whim. Uh, I sat for banking interviews, I sat for consulting interviews. Um, and when McKinsey happened, I just knew, my whole body knew that, "Yeah, this is it. This is awesome. I'm excited about this." Few years in McKinsey, to your point of straying away again from the beaten path, that didn't give me the joy and fulfillment I was seeking. Uh, at back then, most people who came to McKinsey out of the IITs were going into private equity or venture capital.

Amrutash Misra 49:56 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 49:57 And those paths didn't seem exciting for me. I wanted to, uh, to my vision, continuing to my vision of being a CEO at thirty-five of a multimillion-dollar company, the fear and regret that I had was: what if I get to thirty-five, do all of this, but I haven't actually impacted society in any way? So I quit McKinsey, and I joined a nonprofit called Pratham, the Pratham Education Foundation. They work in, uh, rural primary education, and back then, they were starting to work in urban slums as well. Uh, I spent a year there, convinced me that this was giving me joy. Uh, not sure how it's gonna put bread on the table. Uh-

Amrutash Misra 50:36 Okay, one second. Can you just, uh, P- Pratham advises the government of India on the state of education in the country, right?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 50:42 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 50:43 And, uh, they do these massive surveys-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 50:45 Yeah

Amrutash Misra 50:45 ... they're called-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 50:45 ASER.

Amrutash Misra 50:46 AS- ASER surveys. Uh, I was gonna say ASER, but okay, ASER.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 50:50 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 50:50 ASER surveys, which, uh, bas-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 50:52 It's intended to have an ASER on the state of education.

Amrutash Misra 50:55 Ah, nice. So, uh, the ASER surveys check... Uh, so if you read a report, uh, in the newspaper saying that class five students, so many percentage are able to do class five math-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 51:06 Mm

Amrutash Misra 51:06 ... so many percentage are only able to do class three math, that's an ASER survey data point, right?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 51:10 Correct. Exactly. The, uh, what it measures and the most prominent statistic that, uh, it brought to light was the percentage of class five students who could read a class-one-level paragraph was somewhere between thirty to fifty percent. I don't know where it falls now, but what they were revealing was for the quantity of resource and infrastructure that's going into education, the quality of learning outcomes wasn't matching up, and how do we focus on quality, um, in addition to quantity, was one big idea. So spent a year there. Uh, Pratham is w- uh, founded by a gentleman called, uh, co-founded by a gentleman called Madhav Chavan, who used to be an assistant professor of chemistry at Virginia University.

Amrutash Misra 52:03 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 52:03 Uh, so to see a person like that do work like this gave me complete confidence that, okay, like, any path is possible, uh, for anybody. And gave me the courage to say: "I'm not gonna apply for an MBA," uh, which was the conventional, uh, outcome expected of people by then, at the stage I was at. "I'm gonna study economics." And again, I asked myself the question, "If I were to devote two years of my life to study something, uh, and maybe I won't study again in an institution for the rest of this lifetime, what one subject do I want to learn before I pass on?" Was the question I asked myself, and economics came up for some reason. Hadn't studied it on campus, even though there were courses.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 52:51 Went to Harvard, did the Kennedy School of Government. The intention then was join World Bank, United Nations.

Amrutash Misra 52:58 Let's just pause there a bit. Kennedy School of Government, not everybody goes there, obviously, uh, it... uh, so m- from India, that is.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 53:04 Mm.

Amrutash Misra 53:04 So it's not like we've heard a lot about it. So what is the Kennedy School of Government? Who are the alumni? What do they do?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 53:11 Sure. So the Harvard Kennedy School of Government is Harvard's School of Public Policy and International Development. It attracts people from the governments around the world, as well as people in the development sector, and also people in the private sector who are interested in moving into a career in government or development. So typically, the students you'd find on campus there are- they range from, uh, younger folks like me, who had had some private sector experience, uh, or had worked in ministries or departments and nonprofits, and are here and are wanting to move on to such careers. It also has, um, students in executive education programs who are ex-ministers, uh, ex-army personnel, um, ex-politicians, uh, ex-bureaucrats. Uh, and from India, every year, um, candidates are nominated from both the senior, uh, strata of IAS and IPS. So I had, uh, fellow students from India who were, uh, serving IPS and IAS officers, uh, who are going to upskill themselves and, and understand, have a more global understanding, and then bring that back to the nation-building work. My thought was, I was going to the Kennedy School to join the World Bank. Uh, people from those institutions, after speaking with me and understanding the kind of person I am, dissuaded me from joining those institutions because they said, "For someone like you who's been through a meritocratic environment, uh, you're not gonna enjoy working in a bureaucracy."... um, it's just not going to be your cup of tea. And at that same time, McKinsey in India had opened up its, uh, leadership institute, and the partner who had hired me out of IIT some years ago was leading the social sector office for Asia in, within McKinsey. So it made sense for me to come back to McKinsey. Uh, felt like I could find a path that fits my passions, my purpose, and that's why I came back. I came back to India after my time at Harvard, and, uh, and then I found my ground in leadership development within McKinsey.

Amrutash Misra 55:36 Nice. That's how you got into people development and-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 55:39 Got into people development,

Sriram Kalyanaraman 55:40 and-

Amrutash Misra 55:40 I read some- uh, you, you've said somewhere that at, at, in all of this, you were one of the first thousand subscribers of Headspace. Is that correct?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 55:49 Yeah, it is. It is.

Amrutash Misra 55:50 That is so random. [chuckles]

Sriram Kalyanaraman 55:53 Yeah, it is. Uh, because, uh, this is back in 2011, summer of 2011. I was doing my Harvard internship in Peru, and there was one day that, one evening that summer, when I came back home and I was filled ... My mind was just bustling with thoughts, uh, confused, in a dilemma, um, couldn't make sense of anything. And so I went on to Google. I re- I still remember sitting on that sofa after coming back from work, and I typed the query: how to find more space in my mind?

Amrutash Misra 56:29 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 56:30 And the second result that came up was Headspace.

Amrutash Misra 56:34 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 56:34 Uh, Andy Puddicombe had just... This was this BBC journalist who had gone to Thailand, enamored by Buddhism, and become a Buddhist monk, and had given up his monkhood close to a decade later and come back to Britain to bring meditation to the world. So he had started this fledgling app, and, uh, that's where I began. And, uh, it actually helped me sow the seeds for the meditation practice that I have today. Um, when I started, it was incredibly hard. I must tell you this, Headspace, back then, had a program called Take Ten.

Amrutash Misra 57:09 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 57:09 That was their intro program. Ten minutes a day for ten days. If you completed that, you would graduate to Take Twenty, twenty minutes a day for twenty days, and you'd graduate to Take Thirty, thirty minutes a day for thirty days, and then the advanced six levels would unlock. So I got on the app once I came back to Cambridge from Peru, and I thought, "In a year, I'm gonna complete all the way up-

Amrutash Misra 57:35 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 57:35 ... to the top of level six and hopefully enlightened by then." [laughing]

Amrutash Misra 57:37 Of course. We have done IIT, McKinsey. How hard can this be?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 57:42 How hard can enlightenment be after IIT? [laughing]

Amrutash Misra 57:45 [laughing]

Sriram Kalyanaraman 57:46 It took me one full year to complete Take Ten.

Amrutash Misra 57:50 [laughing]

Sriram Kalyanaraman 57:51 It took me three sixty-five days to find ten days and just ten minutes each day.

Amrutash Misra 57:58 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 57:59 Um, and after that, the journey began. Um, I always fall back to that time when I doubt myself or worry about not having done enough on my meditation practice.

Amrutash Misra 58:13 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 58:13 Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 58:15 It's amazing. Um, I know you said that everybody asks you, but I feel like asking you again: Do you use any of your computer science courses in your [chuckles] work?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 58:24 In my work today, uh? Um, no. The short answer is no. My wife, Anusha, she doubted for the longest time that I was from IIT. [chuckles]

Amrutash Misra 58:38 [chuckles]

Sriram Kalyanaraman 58:38 So when we shifted houses, I found our degree, and I actually went to her and showed her, "Look, this proves evidentially that I did graduate with a computer science degree."

Sriram Kalyanaraman 58:51 Um, what I do use from my time at IIT is, uh, two things. The first is the understanding of logic as a way of navigating reality. Um, logic was core to our study of computer science over the four years in campus here, and it helped me a lot because I was able to understand for myself that there is a logic to inner transformation. Uh, there is a logic to how human consciousness conditions itself and how we become the people that we are today, and how we can become the people that we want to be tomorrow. There is a underlying logic and structure to all of this. The word psychology is basically the logic of the psyche.

Amrutash Misra 59:44 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 59:44 It's the study of the mind. So that's definitely one thing that's helped. The other is, you used the word empathy earlier. Uh, definitely the empathy. I mean, today, when I look at people, including and foremost myself, who sometimes struggle to deal with expectation, to deal with pressure, to be on a treadmill, to take every joyful decision and new chapter that we really yearn and hope for, and then we get into the chapter, and then we make it a treadmill.

Amrutash Misra 1:00:15 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:00:15 We become masters at taking joy and making it-

Amrutash Misra 1:00:19 Competitive.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:00:20 Competitive.

Amrutash Misra 1:00:20 Gamifying it.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:00:21 Yeah, gamifying-

Amrutash Misra 1:00:22 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:00:23 ... joy to such a degree that it loses the juice.

Amrutash Misra 1:00:26 Yeah. Correct.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:00:27 So-

Amrutash Misra 1:00:27 You got seven game joy points today. [clapping] [laughing]

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:00:32 This laugh was my eighth. [laughing]

Amrutash Misra 1:00:35 [laughing]

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:00:37 So to, uh, along with the logic of h- how human consciousness evolves, also the empathy for what we as, uh, engineers or non-engineers in our twenties, thirties, forties, fifties in growing up in India-... or for a large part, Asia, are going through right now inside, in our minds, in our hearts, in our bodies. So logic and empathy, certainly, I would say, have been my, uh, gifts that I've received from IIT Madras. And finally, community.

Amrutash Misra 1:01:17 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:01:17 The work that fulfills me, part of the work that fulfills me is the HHS course. And to come back to this campus, it's just amazing. I mean, as I look around this venue also, I don't know if people on camera can actually look behind, but there's a hyperloop freight transport, high speed device being built by students here. There's two rockets in the background there. There's a cross-country solar racing car here.

Amrutash Misra 1:01:44 And the facility is paid for by a alumni donation.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:01:49 Alumni-

Amrutash Misra 1:01:49 Just to bring back that earlier point of, uh, you know, HNI is donating.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:01:53 Giving back.

Amrutash Misra 1:01:54 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:01:54 Yeah, exactly, right? Like, uh, the, what happens when we give a bit of what we have. There's a Formula Bharat, uh, car in being engineered and built there.

Amrutash Misra 1:02:05 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:02:06 So, uh, yeah, absolutely. Uh, finding abundance in our lives and helping others find abundance for their lives, ironically and counterintuitively, comes by giving. Uh, abundance comes by giving, not hoarding. Uh, because when we give, we also realize how much actually we do have.

Amrutash Misra 1:02:29 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:02:30 Um, and how much has come about because of some kind soul's-

Amrutash Misra 1:02:34 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:02:35 ... uh, intent.

Amrutash Misra 1:02:36 How much we have got from others.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:02:38 Yeah, how much we-

Amrutash Misra 1:02:38 And on that topic, do you feel like... And because you're a coach also to so many people, do you feel like sometimes people feel like, [lips smack] "This empathy, happiness thing, I can figure out from books. I don't need to take help from someone else"? Do you think that sort of like self-made, uh, attitude or I don't know what it is, but-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:03:02 Mm

Amrutash Misra 1:03:02 ... I feel like a lot of people would, um, would just close it up saying, "This is very personal to me. I don't wanna talk to anyone about it." Does that happen?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:03:09 Mm. It does, actually. It's one of the barriers to, uh, self-growth. One of my mentors, he often says, "Everyone needs a coach." If you look at, uh, champions in any sport, like, name a sport and name its champion.

Amrutash Misra 1:03:28 I mean, Virat Kohli.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:03:29 Virat Kohli. One more?

Amrutash Misra 1:03:31 Um, Pete Sampras. Oh, from the '90s-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:03:34 Pete Sampras

Amrutash Misra 1:03:34 ... but okay.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:03:34 Yeah. One more.

Amrutash Misra 1:03:36 I, I get your point.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:03:37 Messi-

Amrutash Misra 1:03:38 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:03:38 ... in football.

Amrutash Misra 1:03:39 All of them have coaches.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:03:40 You take any athlete, they don't-

Amrutash Misra 1:03:41 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:03:41 ... just have a coach, they have a team of coaches.

Amrutash Misra 1:03:44 Coaches.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:03:45 They have someone looking at their physical conditioning, they have someone looking at their nutrition, they have a mental coach.

Amrutash Misra 1:03:51 But they are at a high performance level. What if I'm not aiming for high performance, I'm aiming for mid-performance?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:03:56 [laughing] Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:04:00 Uh, I would-

Amrutash Misra 1:04:01 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:04:01 It's possible, certainly, that, um, life bestows you with the right environment and the right ingredients for you to find your fulfillment by yourself. It's a small percentage.

Amrutash Misra 1:04:18 Mm.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:04:18 Um, just looking at empirical statistics from people that I have worked with, um, it's a small percentage because, uh, the mind can very quickly end up being its own, um, its own nemesis-

Amrutash Misra 1:04:35 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:04:36 ... and echo. Um, because the mind actually doesn't know the answer to happiness.

Amrutash Misra 1:04:43 Um.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:04:44 Happiness is not a logical equation to be solved.

Amrutash Misra 1:04:48 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:04:48 Uh, so you do need someone to mirror you. You do need something to show you a mirror. It could be, to your point and to what we were saying earlier, that the teachers are everywhere. It could be a coach that you take on, it could be your life partner, it could be your child, it could be your parent. One of my teachers, he says, "If you think you're enlightened, just go visit your family again, [chuckles] uh, and wait for the triggers to come up," uh-

Amrutash Misra 1:05:16 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:05:16 ... "that happens in such a situation." What this, uh, discussion is pointing to is, um, ask for help when you need it, if you need it. If you become aware that you need the help, ask for it. Maybe it's not a coach for your mental well-being or a therapist that you need. Maybe you need a nutrition coach-

Amrutash Misra 1:05:39 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:05:40 ... uh, or maybe you need a sounding board for the next startup that you're thinking of building. Uh, but building together, uh-

Amrutash Misra 1:05:49 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:05:49 ... and leaning on people-

Amrutash Misra 1:05:51 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:05:51 ... is the-

Amrutash Misra 1:05:52 It's not a-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:05:52 -big idea.

Amrutash Misra 1:05:53 It's, it's not a world where... I mean, nobody is really self-made. Everybody has had help from other people-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:06:00 Mm

Amrutash Misra 1:06:01 ... either formal help or informal help.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:06:03 Mm. Yeah, it's, that's true. It's, it's a, a Buddhist, uh, uh, definition or, or underlying principle of reality, that reality is interdependent. Exactly what you said-

Amrutash Misra 1:06:16 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:06:17 ... which is, nobody is, uh, self-made. No one has, uh, crossed the great waters alone-

Amrutash Misra 1:06:23 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:06:23 ... as one of my teachers would say.

Amrutash Misra 1:06:25 And even a rank one at IITM or, uh, or, or the top salaried person who got the best job, he's had a lot of help from his, uh, family, his, uh, peers, his, uh, professors.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:06:38 Mm. You're being coached all the time, you just don't know it. [chuckles]

Amrutash Misra 1:06:41 Yeah, you just don't know it. Yeah.

Amrutash Misra 1:06:45 I want to end by saying that, first of all, your journey is very inspirational, but your dad's journey is [chuckles] way more inspirational to me. Uh, can you... A- and of course, I've heard you say it before. Can you just say that part, uh, and what your dad has been able to do?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:06:59 Sure. So, uh, my dad, um, [clear throat] after he worked in a bank after he got out of college-... And he worked for three decades in the State Bank of Mysore, and he quit after 32 years with a voluntary retirement. You remember there was a VRS?

Amrutash Misra 1:07:19 VRS schemes, yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:07:20 Uh, so he took that, and he studied law. Uh, at the age of fifty-six, he enrolled as a bachelor's student in an LLB program in Bangalore University and became a lawyer, then went on to do his diploma at the National Law School in Intellectual Property, and today he is an advocate with the High Court of Karnataka. Um, and I remember when he decided to make that shift from... So probably the, the genes or the DNA of going off a beaten path comes from-

Amrutash Misra 1:08:03 Come from your dad.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:08:04 Dad. Uh, but I remember us as a family dissuading him, uh, and saying, "Pa, like, you've worked for thirty-two years-

Amrutash Misra 1:08:13 Why don't you just relax?

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:08:14 ... Why are you- why don't you just relax?

Amrutash Misra 1:08:15 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:08:15 Why are you, like, going through this?" Because at that time, in 2001, 2003, my brother was studying for JEE. I was studying for my boards, and my dad was studying for his law exam. [chuckles] My mother had had it at home.

Amrutash Misra 1:08:31 [chuckles]

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:08:31 Uh, so I remember us telling him, "Pa, like, why are you doing this?" And, uh, within few years after graduation, like, he turned around and said, like, "Didn't I prove all of you wrong?"

Amrutash Misra 1:08:41 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:08:42 We have not-

Amrutash Misra 1:08:43 But this, uh, this, this idea that life is a lifelong learning process and, you know, you need to lea- lead by curiosity to find yourself and just there's a sense of exploration. Like, you shouldn't come and say, "JEE rank, done," or, "Job done, and this is who I am," but-

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:08:59 Mm

Amrutash Misra 1:09:00 ... constantly evolving yourself, building yourself.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:09:03 Yeah, and if you think about it, all you're doing is you are watering the seeds that have already generated the full-bloomed flower that you are. You got into IIT or JEE because of curiosity.

Amrutash Misra 1:09:15 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:09:15 As much as we say, "No, I just went and, like, I did two years," if you think about those moments when you and I were, like, so leant over our desk and wondering, "How did, how did this-

Amrutash Misra 1:09:23 Burning the midnight oil.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:09:25 Burning the midnight oil. It's actually curiosity to say, "Oh, like, this is how this becomes this."

Amrutash Misra 1:09:30 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:09:31 And so once we come to campus, and that's what I love about facilities like this in IIT Madras, um, there's so many gardens where you can take your curiosity, your sapling of curiosity to, and there are so many gardeners around you. Um, let the... Let it bloom. Uh, let a, a flower, a tree, a garden, a forest of curiosity bloom. And, uh, you're right. Yeah, life is... It took me a while, to be honest, to realize that life is-

Amrutash Misra 1:10:01 Mm

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:10:01 ... constant learning, and there's no sense of arriving, uh-

Amrutash Misra 1:10:05 Yeah

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:10:05 ... at least for the mind. Um, the heart can arrive and say that, "Yeah, I'm now home." The mind will never understand arrival by the very definition of-

Amrutash Misra 1:10:15 Definition of

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:10:16 ... its, uh, functionality. It's constantly moving. So yeah, thank you for bringing that. And, um, yeah, such gratitude for, uh, Dad, Mum-

Amrutash Misra 1:10:28 Mm

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:10:28 ... Brother, Anusha today, uh, parents, family, friends, ecosystems.

Amrutash Misra 1:10:35 Yeah.

Sriram Kalyanaraman 1:10:35 No one is self-made.

Amrutash Misra 1:10:37 Yeah. It's a great place to stop. Thank you for watching. We'll see you next time. [outro jingle]