Master MONEY MAKING In 60 Minutes: Everything They Never Taught You | Jenny Just

Jenny Just 0:00 Starting in trading is really humbling. We lose 45% of the time.

Codie Sanchez 0:05 What does that feel like to lose tens of millions of dollars in seconds?

Jenny Just 0:09 The very first time it happened that way, that was rough.

Codie Sanchez 0:12 Do you think you can get rich if you don't take risks?

Jenny Just 0:15 Mm.

Codie Sanchez 0:16 Jenny Just is a self-made billionaire, co-founder of the legendary investment company Peak6, that has made money every single year for 28 years. If you want to figure out how to bet big on yourself, and whether the next right decision for you is to go left or to go right, you're gonna wanna listen to this episode.

Jenny Just 0:37 Time is massively important. It's definitely a marathon, it's not a sprint. When you have that great year, think about it over a three-year timeframe.

Codie Sanchez 0:44 Mm.

Jenny Just 0:45 Don't think about it as today's money.

Codie Sanchez 0:47 What can poker tell us about reading the room in life?

Jenny Just 0:50 You have to be thinking about the other cards at the table. Then you have to think about what they're thinking about your cards. If I'm sitting across from someone and I want something to happen, I want more money, I want a different position, I have to think about what they're thinking.

Codie Sanchez 1:03 What's the most amount of money you've ever lost in a single day?

Jenny Just 1:06 [laughs] Uh, it's a lot. Um...

Codie Sanchez 1:14 So you're a self-made billionaire, right?

Jenny Just 1:16 That's correct.

Codie Sanchez 1:17 That's probably what you lead with when you come into conversations.

Jenny Just 1:19 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 1:19 You're like, "Codie, really? First question?" Um, but I think it's really cool because, one, billionaires are super rare.

Jenny Just 1:26 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:26 But to be self-made, then throw on you're a woman, not that many, and then you did it in finance and investing. But what's kinda cool, you didn't start out that way, and you've said a line I loved, which is you said failure shaped you more than anything else. What does that mean?

Jenny Just 1:43 Starting in trading is really humbling. We lose 45% of the time, so it's over, and over, and over, and that repetition, you know, that compounds. I always talk about compound experience. Each one of those gets you a little smarter, a little braver, a little bit more nimble. I think I was really lucky to start in trading on a trading floor, in person, and sort of feel what it was like, right, to lose those dollars. But I did it when I was young, multiple times a minute.

Codie Sanchez 2:22 Yeah.

Jenny Just 2:23 So doing that allowed me then, as I grew, I became... put on my b- big boy pants, and, and did a little bigger, and a little bigger. You know, people think of me as a risk-taker because of where I came from, but I became one.

Codie Sanchez 2:40 Yeah.

Jenny Just 2:40 Right.

Codie Sanchez 2:41 A lot of people maybe don't know what trading is.

Jenny Just 2:43 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 2:44 And so really what this means is that you are either trading for your own, your own book-

Jenny Just 2:48 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 2:48 ... your own wallet-

Jenny Just 2:48 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 2:49 ... you could think of, or somebody else's.

Jenny Just 2:50 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 2:51 But you're on the line. Like, every decision, you are deciding, "I'm going to put a dollar and bet"-

Jenny Just 2:55 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 2:55 ... quote, unquote, "on X to happen"-

Jenny Just 2:57 That's right

Codie Sanchez 2:57 ... and if X doesn't happen, I lose money."

Jenny Just 2:59 That's right.

Codie Sanchez 2:59 So, like, to put this in perspective

Codie Sanchez 3:01 for people, what's the most amount of money you've ever lost in a single day? Do you know?

Jenny Just 3:05 [laughs] Uh, it's a lot. Um, tens of millions-

Codie Sanchez 3:11 Oof

Jenny Just 3:11 ... of dollars.

Codie Sanchez 3:12 Yeah. And-

Jenny Just 3:13 In, in seconds, right? There's not even, you know, a whole day-

Codie Sanchez 3:16 [laughs]

Jenny Just 3:16 ... doesn't have to go by for that to happen.

Codie Sanchez 3:17 You're like, "Can we break it down, Codie?"

Jenny Just 3:19 Yeah. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 3:19 "The dead seconds was bad enough." Wow. What does that feel like to lose tens of millions of dollars in seconds?

Jenny Just 3:26 When it first happened, the very first time it happened that way, that was rough, right? Was all that stuff leading up to this, you know, a fantasy? So a lot of second-guessing, but you get better. And from it, and you obviously don't wanna do that again. Um, but I... And literally just yesterday, right? So we've been doing Peak6 for 28 years now, and, um, there's always a situation in the market, right? It's, it's why the smartest actually don't win. "Long-Term Capital Management" is a great story for people to read about. And, uh, they were the smartest, and they didn't win. So being humble about when things are going well, and acknowledging what was luck, what was skill, and then recognizing a situation where that same thing, it's going to happen again. What am I going to do then when it does? I just have to assume it's going to happen. I think that is the... So now how do I get comfortable? Because at fir- you know, the first losses weren't that big, obviously.

Codie Sanchez 4:42 Yeah.

Jenny Just 4:42 But the more you put out, the more the chances for a big loss are, so.

Codie Sanchez 4:46 Yeah. I mean, th- the first time, did you... Like, when some- when you lost a bunch of money, are you like, "I need to go to the bathroom," and then you just go get sick in the bathroom?

Jenny Just 4:52 Yeah. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 4:52 Or are you just like... Do you... 'Cause I imagine, like, as you get older and better at it, those peaks and valleys, if you're gonna stay in the game, if you can-

Jenny Just 5:00 That's right

Codie Sanchez 5:00 ... handle it-

Jenny Just 5:01 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 5:02 ... and figure out mentally how to get through it, which I think by the end of this podcast, given everything I've read from you, we're gonna help people get there-

Jenny Just 5:08 Right

Codie Sanchez 5:08 ... be able to manage the peaks and troughs. But, um, I imagine in the beginning, the highs are high.

Jenny Just 5:13 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 5:14 You're like-

Jenny Just 5:14 That's right

Codie Sanchez 5:14 ... you know, bottle service at Tao-

Jenny Just 5:16 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 5:16 ... on Jenny, you know? [laughs]

Jenny Just 5:18 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 5:18 I know what you traders did in finance.

Jenny Just 5:20 Yeah, we did. Yeah, that's right.

Codie Sanchez 5:21 [laughs]

Jenny Just 5:21 That's right. Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 5:22 But I imagine the lows are really low.

Jenny Just 5:24 They are. Yeah. And it's, it's really about recognizing you don't have to have the highest high, because you don't want the lowest low, and that's really hard for

Jenny Just 5:33 traders. And, you know, we've had 28 years, never had a losing year. You know, let me knock on something.

Codie Sanchez 5:39 Wow.

Jenny Just 5:39 So, um, and that's really unheard of in our business, but that's also, do we have, did we have the biggest year of anybody? Um, probably not. But methodically reinventing ourselves and thinking about how that next market opportunity, new advances in tech, new advance in, in people who are... how we're approaching the problem differently, right? Each one of those. We don't as- just assume that we're going to. We kinda think, think in three-year cycles, roughly, of the next Jenny and Matt, Matt is my co-founder, could be, you know, in the garage, especially today with AI. So they could be there. How do we... We probably have to-- It's been three-year cycles. We probably have to shrink that cycle down, but a lot is possible with very few people these days.

Codie Sanchez 6:31 What does it take to not lose money for 28 years in investing? That's, I mean, it's like you and what, Renaissance?

Jenny Just 6:38 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 6:39 And I think they even had one year that was down.

Jenny Just 6:40 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 6:40 What does that mean? Like, for somebody who's never really thought about-

Jenny Just 6:44 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 6:44 ... like a risk budget-

Jenny Just 6:45 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 6:45 ... or like risk allocation, how, how could they conceptualize managing risk?

Jenny Just 6:50 You have to assume that you-- the, the worst possible scenario. And you can also assume the best, 'cause people are already thinking about that, right? So I assume you're already thinking about what the best outcome is. But what is the worst possible, and then what is the slightly less than the worst possible? Like, there is a wide range of outcomes. I think people are quite binary in their thought process, and what if? And, and then using examples from the marketplace that have happened before. You know, people don't wanna think GameStop's gonna happen again. And you turn around, and then there's another one. So, right? Even the smartest in the world at the time when that was happening were betting against that stock could actually go higher. It can. So-

Codie Sanchez 7:37 Did you bet against it?

Jenny Just 7:38 Do we bet against it? No. We get... What we often do in those cases, we get out of the way.

Codie Sanchez 7:42 Yeah.

Jenny Just 7:43 Um, and then we'll, we'll figure out a good way to play it, 'cause we like-- we're active in 3 to 4,000 public company names in their option, in their options every single day. So we have a very, a broad, really broad portfolio. So there's a lot of things, and we like to be where the volume is, for sure. So...

Codie Sanchez 8:05 That is why. It's a really good way to think about it, because by binary, you know, basically meaning everybody thinks either lo- I'm gonna lose everything or I'm gonna win everything.

Jenny Just 8:13 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 8:13 And they're really at the broad end of both spectrums-

Jenny Just 8:15 That's right

Codie Sanchez 8:16 ... as opposed to thinking, "Well, what would it look like if we just continuously won a little bit-

Jenny Just 8:20 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 8:20 ... over time?"

Jenny Just 8:20 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 8:21 Or simultaneously, continuously lost a little bit of money.

Jenny Just 8:23 Lost a little bit over time. Same thing, yeah.

Codie Sanchez 8:25 Interesting. You know, what I, what I think is really interesting about you is a lot of what you talk about is... I, I even hate to use the word mindset-

Jenny Just 8:34 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 8:34 ... 'cause it's like almost touchy feely-

Jenny Just 8:36 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 8:36 ... and you're the opposite of that.

Jenny Just 8:37 Yeah. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 8:37 You're like very quant. But, you know, your, your mission right now, I think, is just sort of what I would call break low-risk

Codie Sanchez 8:44 mindsets. Can you talk about why, for instance, so many people take little risk, don't take enough risk, and what you would tell them if they were listening to this?

Jenny Just 8:56 Fi- first of all, it's very unique to the person.

Codie Sanchez 8:59 Mm.

Jenny Just 8:59 Like, what taking risk to you means it's different than what taking to me. It's a very personal thing, and I think people have to be okay, 'cause they, they compare themselves. So if you self-assess where are, where am I on this? Like, you know, give yourself a risk scale, one to 10. And then, um, what is a purpose, right? Do I have a purpose for taking more or less risk? And I think for most people that I'm, either that are listening to you or, or coming and listening to me, they are yearning, right? They, there is a desire. As much as I look like I take a lot of risk, it's... Nobody would have called me a risk taker when I was younger. You can actually learn it, but you have to start. So what is a small risk for, you know, if you're a young kid in school, it might be raising your ha-hand in class, right? Okay, I got over that first hurdle. Now, how do I get over the second hurdle? How do I get over the third hurdle? And I, but I have to make it a conscious, um, exercise for myself, which is why when we talk about poker, I like poker so much because every hand is taking a risk, right? I mean, for a lot of people, just getting to the poker table is a risk, so, especially for women.

Codie Sanchez 10:18 So you think young Jenny, she wasn't a risk taker?

Jenny Just 10:20 I don't think so.

Codie Sanchez 10:21 Was she tough?

Jenny Just 10:22 She was tough.

Codie Sanchez 10:23 Yeah.

Jenny Just 10:23 She definitely was tough. I grew up with four brothers.

Codie Sanchez 10:25 Oh, yeah.

Jenny Just 10:26 Not a lot phased me. You know, I went down to the trading floor, and, you know, it's a sea of men. And, and the first day, the, a gentleman came up to me, said, "Don't worry, I'll protect you." A guy on our team. And I was like, "From what?" You know? [laughs] I was like, "I'd rather see you do it."

Codie Sanchez 10:42 Yeah.

Jenny Just 10:43 Yeah. But, um, yeah, so that, I, I, that was the good fortune, I think, that I had, that I, I didn't let the outside get in the way. I was always a high achiever in school, but I did what I was told. I didn't sort of go on my own and, and take risk per se.

Codie Sanchez 11:01 Do you think that most people understand the risk level that they are? Like, is that just... It seems sort of nebulous-

Jenny Just 11:11 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 11:11 ... in some ways.

Jenny Just 11:11 It is.

Codie Sanchez 11:11 It's like a hard concept to wrap your hands around.

Jenny Just 11:14 Yeah. We've been talking about building sort of a risk tool.

Codie Sanchez 11:17 Like a framework?

Jenny Just 11:17 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 11:18 Yeah.

Jenny Just 11:18 A framework, because, you know, just putting a stake in the ground somewhere, um, do most people understand? I think, uh, if they really were vulnerable with themselves, they do. And I think for people who actually, who call themselves risk taker, they also know there's another level. And by the way, risk doesn't have to mean jumping out of a plane. It doesn't have to be betting all your money, right? It just has to mean being, taking more risks than you are today. You know, I was always looking, you know, in my rearview mirror when we were building our company and when we were winning. I was like, "When's the loss gonna come?" Right? And so I didn't wanna take that next risk. Hiring our, gosh, hiring our 10th person, I was like, "No way are we ever having more than 10 people." So, like, that was a really big risk to me. And so, like, I contextualize all the time what I do. Can I take more risks than I do today? Yes. I mean, when we've been just recently, right, in the last couple years investing in AI, like how big and where? And, right? And it's, you know, it's another level for us. I have a funny story really quick.

Codie Sanchez 12:28 Yeah.

Jenny Just 12:28 This one, I, I love this because, um, I said no to Jamie Dimon. Um, so we were... We had a plan A, and 28 years later, we've never done our plan A. We were trying to get a bank to be our partner to do over-the-counter equity derivatives. That was what we were... That's what we left to go do. That's what we did when we left O'Connor, and, um, it was taking forever. And in the meantime, we started plan B, which is a business that's been around for 28 years now. And, but it's not that we didn't want this other business to happen, but it was going on and on. We'd hired some people to work on it while we were focused over here, and Jamie Dimon was at First Chicago at the time. And so we got to the 11th hour with him, and it was dragging, it was dragging, it was dragging. So this is 1999, and, um, right, we don't have our phones or... I had a little calendar on my desk, and I circled the date, and I was like, "If we don't have an answer by this date, we're out." And they just didn't have an answer yet, right? And we called. We said, "We're out." So...

Codie Sanchez 13:32 I bet, I bet Jamie doesn't get told no very many times.

Jenny Just 13:34 No.

Codie Sanchez 13:34 [laughs]

Jenny Just 13:36 Yeah. Well, for sure less so today-

Codie Sanchez 13:38 Yeah

Jenny Just 13:38 ... than, than then. But-

Codie Sanchez 13:39 But that, that is a hack right there. This is totally unrelated, kinda, but, like, I'm divorced and remarried happily.

Jenny Just 13:45 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 13:45 Um, but my first marriage, like I... We just couldn't figure it out-

Jenny Just 13:48 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 13:48 ... and it was not good. And I put a date on the calendar.

Jenny Just 13:52 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 13:53 Same thing, and I was like, "We will either work through this, and we will get... Or if it doesn't come to the table in the way that we need to, this is the out date."

Jenny Just 14:02 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 14:02 And I remember when the day came up, I was like, "What am I gonna do? Not keep my word to myself?"

Jenny Just 14:05 Right.

Codie Sanchez 14:06 Like, that's a pretty important word.

Jenny Just 14:07 Yeah. And I think when you do it the first time you do something like that, it, it's, uh, it's definitely motivating, and it's inspiring. You're like, "All right. I did what I said." And 'cause it's time, right? You... That's a ways out. You don't know how you're gonna feel or think or anything about that. Obviously, you have the luxury of changing your mind if you want, but by s- by sticking to it, definitely changed-

Codie Sanchez 14:32 Yeah

Jenny Just 14:32 ... my trajectory.

Codie Sanchez 14:33 Well, you inspired me. Right now, actually, we, we do like... Our members do, like, $300 million in, um, small business transactions a year.

Jenny Just 14:41 Nice.

Codie Sanchez 14:41 And, uh, we have some banking relationships, but I want one deep banking relationship.

Jenny Just 14:48 [sighs]

Codie Sanchez 14:50 And when I tell you, working with these SBA banks-

Jenny Just 14:53 Oh, my gosh

Codie Sanchez 14:53 ... what the, the piecemeal nonsense they wanna do, where you can't actually see through to who bought, you know, the business.

Jenny Just 15:00 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 15:00 And they're like, "Well, why don't you email us when they, you know, close?" I'm like, "We have 100 million eyeballs a month."

Jenny Just 15:05 Right.

Codie Sanchez 15:05 "We're doing so many... We're doing more transactions in cumulative than some quarters you are."

Jenny Just 15:11 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 15:11 Um, that doesn't work.

Jenny Just 15:13 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 15:13 And I think I need to put a calendar on the date to say, "If we don't do it by this date, I'm gonna buy a bank."

Jenny Just 15:17 Right.

Codie Sanchez 15:17 "And then I'm gonna have no partners."

Jenny Just 15:20 Yep.

Codie Sanchez 15:20 And it's another example of an industry that is so outdated-

Jenny Just 15:24 Yeah. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 15:24 ... for small business-

Jenny Just 15:25 It is so hard

Codie Sanchez 15:25 ... that I'm like, "You know-

Jenny Just 15:27 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 15:27 ... fine, I could buy one."

Jenny Just 15:29 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 15:29 And so, all right. Now, next time you talk to me-

Jenny Just 15:32 That's right

Codie Sanchez 15:32 ... if I don't either have the partnership I want or-

Jenny Just 15:34 I, I, I... [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 15:34 ... have bought a bank, you have to yell at me.

Jenny Just 15:36 There you go.

Codie Sanchez 15:36 Which is annoying.

Codie Sanchez 15:37 I don't know if, if you were like this, but my mom, like when I was growing up, she would always say, like... She was, she was worried about risk, actually. Risk was bad.

Jenny Just 15:45 Yep.

Codie Sanchez 15:45 And I think if you were to ask her, she would still kinda think risk's a four-letter word-

Jenny Just 15:50 Yep

Codie Sanchez 15:50 ... just like the rest of us.

Jenny Just 15:51 For sure.

Codie Sanchez 15:51 And why would you do something that takes more risk?

Jenny Just 15:54 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 15:55 And, you know, I think she's a woman. You know, my, my family... She was a school teacher. She, she really wanted things that were, quote unquote, "guaranteed."

Jenny Just 16:04 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 16:04 And, um, and I'm wondering, you think that there is maybe this one skill or even a game-

Jenny Just 16:11 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 16:12 ... that can help women break out of that. You wanna talk about what it is?

Jenny Just 16:17 I've been a quiet person for alm- 24 years, I was a quiet person until I learned the game of poker, and I didn't, I didn't necessarily have to be out there for my, my, our, our companies and... But I have been trying to help women accomplish more, what they want to do, which it, for me, it was clearly taking risk around money was-

Codie Sanchez 16:43 Mm

Jenny Just 16:43 ... like the biggest inhibitor. And when I saw poker, it was the closest thing I've seen to the training I got as an options trader, right? 'Cause th- people aren't just gonna become options traders. N- first of all, there's not that many in the world, men or women, and I'm gonna go study options trading is, is unrealistic, I think. Playing a card game, however, is not. And the irony of the whole thing is, you know, our firm is filled with poker players. Um, in the financial world, you've m- you see them all the time. Um, and I just ignored the game because only the guys were playing, first of all. I thought it was a waste of time, and little did I know, it's, there's a little secret. They've been doing it for h- literally hundreds of years. And so I'll just tell

Jenny Just 17:39 the backstory real quick. So my daughter was 14 at the time, so this was in 2019, playing a tennis match, losing. Her dad was a college, um, athlete. Frustrated she's losing to someone she looks like she should be able to beat, and comes home and sort of chirps, you know, to me, 'cause he doesn't want to to her, and says, "You know, she may as well be hitting against a wall."

Codie Sanchez 18:02 Mm.

Jenny Just 18:02 "Uh, she doesn't realize she's playing against someone who is thinking and strategizing. She needs to learn to play poker." And he wasn't really... He was more of a blackjack guy, and I just thought he was being ridiculous, and I walked away.

Codie Sanchez 18:16 [laughs]

Jenny Just 18:16 And, like, two weeks later, I was like, "Should I teach my 14-year-old daughter to play poker?" And then, of course, that annoyed me because I would never have said... I have three sons as well. I've never said that about them, and by the way, they already knew how to play 'cause they all just seemingly Figure it out, you know? And so we, I did an experiment, right? What does a good entrepreneur do? And 10 girls, 10 moms, and it's the only reason I'm sitting here, honestly. So the, the transformation in those girls from lesson one, literally four one-hour lessons to lesson four, was like, literally the skies opened. It was so extraordinary. Now, that at the time was really all about confidence.

Codie Sanchez 19:01 Mm.

Jenny Just 19:01 That's what I saw. But as we proceed to move forward, actually it was going right into COVID, I was like, "Well, we'll, we'll do more of this." We had, like, three states, 17 clubs, something like that, and this is all about being in person. We ... You know, months in, we're like, "I guess it's not about being in person anymore-"

Codie Sanchez 19:21 [laughs]

Jenny Just 19:21 "... so we better figure this thing out." So we actually go to Peak6 employees, a few thousand employees, said, "We want to teach your daughters and your sisters and your nieces." And, and the women were like, "That's so good for them. Why aren't we learning?" And I was like, "Great idea." So we start doing it on Zoom, of course. And Morning Star, large international firm, heard what we were doing, asked to do it, and today now we've taught at over 300... I think it's, like, 370 companies.

Codie Sanchez 19:45 Wow.

Jenny Just 19:46 60 countries. And through that process, I started to learn. And that's when I saw that same repetition, playing that hand, making that decision with imperfect information, playing people, right? 'Cause we're, we're trading, right? There's a customer on the other side. Even if I don't see them, there's somebody there. What are they doing? Why are they doing it, right? Uh, a thought process that I hadn't seen outside of trading was right there in this card game. And when you think about, right, the, how men espoused the game for so many years, but, you know, our presidents play. Um, I just met the, a man the, the other day who would play with Obama in the White House when Michelle was on vacation, you know? So it was-

Codie Sanchez 20:33 Naturally. Yeah. [laughs]

Jenny Just 20:34 Yes. And I think a Trojan horse, honestly, for women to learn this game, play this game, build those skills. By the way, it's... This isn't something that you are n- naturally... Someone might n- be naturally good at it. There's zero reason why you cannot be good at poker. And then once you start to understand the core of it, how it translates not just to business, but to life too, whether it's relationships, uh, decisions that you have to make in life, right? You can see how that hand you just played looks like that negotiation you just did. That, how that hand you played looks like that meeting you were having. Like, where's the power?

Codie Sanchez 21:21 Hmm.

Jenny Just 21:21 Right? Is the person with all the chips? Certainly. But what if a couple people have the chips at the table? Now where's the power? Or what- where's the position that they're sitting at the table? Each layer is quite an extraordinary way of, you know, unfolding stories in your life.

Codie Sanchez 21:41 Hmm.

Jenny Just 21:42 And when you start talking to people about why they played a hand a certain way, there's so much to gain about how other people think and how they approach. My last bit is the most fascinating thing, we've been doing this 'cause obviously we're teaching mostly women. We, we, we will, we will teach men. We're teaching some of your men today. But, um, most men already know how to play, and we're teaching people from scratch. But the surprise, the surprise when they start playing the game, what's actually happening, and how quickly they can translate it to what they do at the office every single day.

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Jenny Just 22:56 Yeah, I mean, I also think it's, it, you know, it's got a cool factor-

Codie Sanchez 22:59 Yes

Jenny Just 23:00 ... too.

Codie Sanchez 23:00 Oh, yeah

Jenny Just 23:01 You know? Like-

Codie Sanchez 23:01 Doesn't hurt the swag at all.

Jenny Just 23:03 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 23:03 Yeah.

Jenny Just 23:03 You know? No, it does not hurt that. And I always-

Codie Sanchez 23:05 Mm-hmm

Jenny Just 23:05 ... I always thought about it as gambling.

Codie Sanchez 23:07 Yeah.

Jenny Just 23:07 You know? And I don't, I don't like gambling 'cause I don't like risk.

Codie Sanchez 23:11 Right.

Jenny Just 23:11 So I'm like, I'll bet on myself all day, which if you think about it, is another type of-

Codie Sanchez 23:15 That's right

Jenny Just 23:15 ... of, uh, gamble.

Codie Sanchez 23:16 Uh-huh.

Jenny Just 23:17 Um, but you know, it wasn't until I first started talking to you that I thought, "Huh, this is interesting."

Codie Sanchez 23:22 Yeah.

Jenny Just 23:22 'Cause you and I talked last time about, you know, the thing that I, the thing that keeps me up at night 'cause I know there are people listening right now, and we could give them every tool and every tactic and every how-to.

Codie Sanchez 23:37 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Just 23:38 But if they don't have the m- right mindset, if they're not willing to actually take action, which is a risk, and increase their risk tolerance, because my belief is by and large it's harder to get rich-

Codie Sanchez 23:49 Mm-hmm

Jenny Just 23:49 ... if you don't take some risks.

Codie Sanchez 23:50 Yep.

Jenny Just 23:51 It just seems-

Codie Sanchez 23:51 Agreed

Jenny Just 23:52 ... harder. Um, and that part I've never had a really good solution for how-

Codie Sanchez 23:55 Mm

Jenny Just 23:55 ... we could teach them that.

Codie Sanchez 23:57 Right.

Jenny Just 23:57 'Cause it's all the touchy feely stuff, right?

Codie Sanchez 23:58 That's right.

Jenny Just 23:58 Like manifest and fluffy-

Codie Sanchez 23:59 Manifest, yeah

Jenny Just 24:00 ... and blah, blah, blah.

Codie Sanchez 24:01 Yeah.

Jenny Just 24:01 And I'm not so good at that.

Codie Sanchez 24:02 Right.

Jenny Just 24:02 And so, but then I, then I read this thing the other day that I would, I want your, uh, take on.

Jenny Just 24:07 The quote was, "Making money isn't hard. Unlearning everything you know about it is. Money goes to people who treat life like strategy, not survival. This isn't about luck. It's about leverage, understanding the rules, then bending them in your favor." Do you think that's true?

Codie Sanchez 24:24 I think there's a lot of truth to that.

Jenny Just 24:26 I think there are a lot of things we're told about money that may or may not be true, and I'd be curious your take, if I could rapid fire some, like, money-

Codie Sanchez 24:33 Mm-hmm

Jenny Just 24:33 ... sayings to you.

Codie Sanchez 24:34 Okay.

Jenny Just 24:34 And you could tell me

Codie Sanchez 24:36 What do you think about that? True, false, and what are your thoughts?

Jenny Just 24:39 Okay.

Codie Sanchez 24:40 Okay. Here's the first one. You should just save and skip the coffee.

Jenny Just 24:47 I think you gotta have your coffee. But, um, uh, you know, if you're not saving somewhere, um, we're really good at defense as well as offense. So... And I think you have to have m- members of your team on both sides.

Codie Sanchez 25:06 Hmm.

Jenny Just 25:06 And, um, but if you're not enjoying yourself along the way, none of it's worth it.

Codie Sanchez 25:13 Yeah. What about if you deserve it, you'll get it?

Jenny Just 25:17 That's a little tougher for me, I would say. An above average, um, talent, right? But, and w- you know, we've done a lot of experiments at Peak6 on types of people we've hired, and maybe deserve is the same as the hard worker. I'm not sure. I don't, I don't hear it that way, but the hardest working people are the people that have succeeded on our team. And people stay because they know they're rewarded for, for working their butt off. And the version of them that comes, right, it's n- not the most obvious person. I think Peak6 has done a really good job of bringing, you know, a wide range, including a lot of females, more than anybody else in the market in terms of capital allocators. People are actually making decisions around money.

Codie Sanchez 26:08 Yeah.

Jenny Just 26:09 Um, we kill 'em. And, uh, you know, honestly, I think one of the reasons why we succeeded is 'cause I brought a different viewpoint. You have to remember, this is 1997. Like, for my co-founder to choose a female, that, wildly unheard of. Well, there, there was very few to pick from to begin with. Did I deserve it? Right. Um, I worked my ass off.

Codie Sanchez 26:33 Yeah. I like it. Yeah, I was watching a video the other day, and it was like, "Just want you to keep repeating, like, 'I will be rich. I deserve to be rich.'"

Jenny Just 26:41 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 26:41 So I was like, "We're gonna need to add a few steps to this process-"

Jenny Just 26:43 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 26:44 "... 'cause I don't think that's gonna... that's not gonna get you there."

Jenny Just 26:46 Quote, say it the most.

Codie Sanchez 26:47 Yeah, it was like-

Jenny Just 26:47 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 26:47 ... a lot of conviction-

Jenny Just 26:49 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 26:49 ... you know, the young woman had. But then I saw it had a million and a half views.

Jenny Just 26:52 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 26:53 And I sat there thinking, "Oh, man." You know, sometimes we've gotta ask ourselves, are the people that we l- we're listening to the ones who have actually done the thing that we're trying to get?

Jenny Just 27:02 Right.

Codie Sanchez 27:02 That's why I think it's interesting when people who have made a lot of money, had a lot of success, are willing to talk about it.

Jenny Just 27:07 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 27:07 It's not that common.

Jenny Just 27:09 Right.

Codie Sanchez 27:09 Like, does it still feel weird for you to talk about, like, when, when people call you a billionaire, are you like, "Eh, la-

Jenny Just 27:15 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 27:15 ... it feels weird"?

Jenny Just 27:15 It's awkward.

Codie Sanchez 27:16 Yeah.

Jenny Just 27:16 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 27:16 It feels awkward.

Jenny Just 27:17 It's... Yeah, it's weird. But I also think, I also know, like, um, to represent, like, it's important.

Codie Sanchez 27:24 Totally.

Jenny Just 27:25 So...

Codie Sanchez 27:26 Yeah. You know what's crazy? We've had three female billionaires in here in the last week.

Jenny Just 27:30 Wow.

Codie Sanchez 27:30 Isn't that cra- Because there's not very many.

Jenny Just 27:32 Yeah. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 27:32 So then I was like, "What's our percentage? We got a high swing ratio here."

Jenny Just 27:35 That's pretty good. That's pretty good.

Codie Sanchez 27:35 I was like, "This is pretty good." Um, what do you think about, um, be patient, wealth comes with time?

Jenny Just 27:43 For sure. Time is, is, is massively important. You know, it's definitely a marathon, it's not a sprint. Um, I do think there are, you know, moments that are not exactly that, right? Uh, you know, unexpected days we make a lot more money than we should have. Um, I, you know, we, we tell our traders too, "When you have that great year, think about it over a three-year timeframe."

Codie Sanchez 28:13 Hmm.

Jenny Just 28:13 "Don't think about it as today's money." Right? We don't want... 'Cause it's, uh, traders can be like athletes in many ways. Way too much money at too young of an age. And, um, and we're really proud that people tend to stay a really long time with us. And being a role model who's conservative around spending, right?

Codie Sanchez 28:35 Yeah.

Jenny Just 28:35 We're really also con- super conscientious there. Maybe, maybe too much so. Um, we've definitely got- been criticized for that in the past, like we're watching the pennies too closely. I'm just like, "Well, if you don't want me to watch your pennies, I won't. But I'm gonna watch mine."

Codie Sanchez 28:48 [laughs]

Jenny Just 28:48 So... [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 28:51 What... You said you, you do a lot of experiments at Peak6.

Jenny Just 28:53 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 28:54 What are some experiments you do with your employees or to determine strategies? 'Cause it does seem like you're a very systems-oriented thinker.

Jenny Just 29:02 Yeah, we are. Well, we like to d- to know what is working. It's really hard to discern, um, you know, uh, what, what actually it is. I, I'll give you... This w- this is a fun example. Um, so my co-founder grew up playing hockey. Six years in, we got married, as an FYI, so I know him very well.

Codie Sanchez 29:24 [laughs]

Jenny Just 29:24 And, um, but always interested in the NHL. And so when the opportunity was there to potentially, you know, be part of a team, we were looking at it. He, at the time, so let's call it, you know, early 2000s, there were, like, six guys talking about hockey statistics on the internet, you know? And so, and he was one of them.

Codie Sanchez 29:47 [laughs]

Jenny Just 29:47 But they're all really bright. And, uh, we said, "Well, what if we took all of those people and we just brought them in as a class? And is there something about their approach, the way they think, um, that might make a different type of options trader?" We did that with poker players many years ago. Before I knew poker. Um, we'd done that with taking the smartest people that we could, that would possibly come to us. Um, that was a complete fail, by the way.

Codie Sanchez 30:18 Wow.

Jenny Just 30:18 But anyway, so back to our hockey people. So they came on, and they were okay. They weren't great traders, but they were there working on, you know, hockey analytics, so if indeed we ever had a team or not. Anyway, they ended up leaving, going to hockey teams. And, um, we were talking about this the other day, which is why I was thinking about it. I think f- the last 12 Stanley Cups Five were either one, I think four, and then one was second place. Uh, you know, whatever, runner, runner-up, whatever you call them, loser. [both laughing] Um, but were ex-Peak6 data people.

Codie Sanchez 30:54 Wow. Like-

Jenny Just 30:55 Uh, well, they're data people for the hockey teams, but yeah, ex-Peak6 employees.

Codie Sanchez 30:59 So you're like w- what's that movie with the baseball guy?

Jenny Just 31:01 Money, "Moneyball," yeah.

Codie Sanchez 31:02 Yeah, you're like the Moneyball of NHL?

Jenny Just 31:04 Of NHL, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, Matt loves, loves, loves, loves, so.

Codie Sanchez 31:11 Should you have taken a little piece of those teams?

Jenny Just 31:13 Yeah, exactly. Wouldn't that be nice? Yeah, the Panthers is one of them. Um, but we, we ended up being part of the Minnesota Wild for a little while.

Codie Sanchez 31:20 Interesting.

Jenny Just 31:20 And-

Codie Sanchez 31:21 That's crazy

Jenny Just 31:21 ... and then not anymore, but...

Codie Sanchez 31:23 So then is it true that the smartest people that you've hired for traders do not make the most money?

Jenny Just 31:30 We train... People c- have no knowledge coming in, so you don't have to know. You don't have to have a finance background, econ background. You could have a history background. Matt has an English major, so Matt was an English major. I was a business major. Um, so we're looking for people, at the end of the day, who work really hard, who are curious, um, and obviously they have to be above average intelligence, like just to get into the math side of options trading.

Codie Sanchez 32:00 As measured by IQ? Do you give people IQ tests? Let them know.

Jenny Just 32:02 We don't give them IQ tests.

Codie Sanchez 32:03 Interesting.

Jenny Just 32:03 But there are lots of interesting-

Codie Sanchez 32:05 Yeah

Jenny Just 32:05 ... you know, mathematical ways to solve problems.

Codie Sanchez 32:08 Yeah.

Jenny Just 32:08 Yeah. Um, you know, Google, when they first started, all those creative ways of testing people, we like to do that too. That was-

Codie Sanchez 32:14 Do you have, like, a question you ask them every time? If I wanna come work for Jenny, do I gotta...

Jenny Just 32:18 N- no, we don't, no. I, you know, 'cause I obviously don't interview these, these, the, the young kids anymore, but, um, you know, we keep it fresh-

Codie Sanchez 32:27 Yeah

Jenny Just 32:27 ... because there's so much sharing and stuff that happens now. But, um-

Codie Sanchez 32:30 Otherwise they'll cheat

Jenny Just 32:31 ... but, yeah. But there's a lot of culture that's involved in our hiring too. We're different than a bunch of the other trading firms on, on who we bring in and who we don't bring in. But it is, um... They love it when they come. Like that, that is one of the things we're most proud of. Though the other interesting thing is, is if they leave, we haven't had any ex-Peak6 people really, you know, create a firm like we created a firm.

Codie Sanchez 33:00 Interesting.

Jenny Just 33:01 Though that is also true of many... You see that actually so- some of the other financial firms, you'll find some, but not so much. It doesn't happen that often, right?

Codie Sanchez 33:10 Hmm.

Jenny Just 33:10 There's not that many option trading firms, for example, so.

Codie Sanchez 33:14 Hmm.

Jenny Just 33:14 Um, but the, the, you know, Susquehanna, who was O'Connor, where we were at, competitor forever, is still there.

Codie Sanchez 33:23 Yeah.

Jenny Just 33:24 Right? So, um-

Codie Sanchez 33:25 Yeah, well, I met a bunch of those guys at AEI, I think I was telling you-

Jenny Just 33:27 I'm sure

Codie Sanchez 33:28 ... last time.

Jenny Just 33:28 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 33:29 And, uh, and, uh, and I didn't re- To be fair, I didn't really understand.

Jenny Just 33:34 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 33:34 You know, when I was at, when I was in finance, I was in private equity and asset management, but, but, you know, like index funds, commingled funds-

Jenny Just 33:43 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 33:43 ... that sort of thing.

Jenny Just 33:44 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 33:44 And I always thought about trading. Maybe I did that in the beginning, but it was really like arbitrage trading.

Jenny Just 33:49 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 33:49 It was like for, you know, State Street, just making a market.

Jenny Just 33:53 Right.

Codie Sanchez 33:54 And, uh, and then I met those guys, and I was like... And I think I could say this about them and they would be fine with it. I was like, "You guys are weird."

Jenny Just 34:02 Yeah. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 34:02 Like, this is a different crew, you know?

Jenny Just 34:04 Yeah, it's a whole, it's a whole different animal, for sure.

Codie Sanchez 34:06 Yeah, they're like physicists-

Jenny Just 34:08 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 34:08 ... and rocket scientists-

Jenny Just 34:09 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 34:10 ... that now trade online.

Jenny Just 34:11 That's... Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 34:12 So half of what you're looking for are these people who basically, they just see the world slightly different.

Jenny Just 34:18 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 34:18 There's some like sort of asymmetric little spin they have-

Jenny Just 34:20 There is, yep

Codie Sanchez 34:21 ... that everybody else doesn't have.

Jenny Just 34:21 Yeah, because it's really a commodity at the end of the day. But, um, you know, being in equities, this is what I always say, especially for females, like, companies are about people's stories, right? Just like here, you know? It's about your story. And following people is really interesting. Um, following the AI story is really about the people who are doing it. And so, um, I think it's a great place e- e- in the equity world for women to, to get their feet dirty 'cause they can, they draw out that, and they have real nuances about what they can understand or not understand. Again, uh, 'cause I see myself, like, why, why was I able to... I was trained by someone who was really good at what they did, and that's what we do for our people. So if you're interested in the markets at all, like, going on the equity side is a really interesting place to start.

Codie Sanchez 35:17 So is the framework for being able to take more risk and thus potentially have more reward, it sounds like, and tell me if this is wrong, so something like, um, you have to do it more.

Jenny Just 35:28 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 35:28 This is your compounding experience.

Jenny Just 35:30 Yep.

Codie Sanchez 35:30 Then you have to do it, I don't wanna say the correct way, but with some sort of mentorship of, or guidance. Just any sort of risk-taking-

Jenny Just 35:37 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 35:37 ... probably not great.

Jenny Just 35:37 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 35:37 It has to be some sort of structured risk-taking.

Jenny Just 35:40 I think it helps. It helps move the ball systematically forward.

Codie Sanchez 35:44 Yeah.

Jenny Just 35:44 I don't think it has to be.

Codie Sanchez 35:45 Hmm.

Jenny Just 35:46 Um, but I, I do think that helps, for sure.

Codie Sanchez 35:49 And then what's the next step? If it's take a lot of risks, structure the risks, and then take bigger risks?

Jenny Just 35:57 I think the next step is, um, you know, again, there's this, this idea of risk management that I'm doing, how am I, um, evaluating my doing?

Codie Sanchez 36:13 Hmm.

Jenny Just 36:13 And you need time to go by. We don't know if a trader is gonna be great at their job or not for a while. Just like you can go and be a beginner poker player and be a pro, you can. That, that happens, you know? And so, um, you need enough time to go by and then some assessment of that, that data to start to tell a story. It's like playing a hand versus playing, you know, an entire game of poker.

Codie Sanchez 36:44 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Just 36:44 That's where the, the hands add up to the game, and hopefully, you know, the game You know, that your table, then you're mov- It's like, more like a tournament, right? Then I'm moving on to the next table, and I'm moving on to the next table. So along the way is, uh... And maybe it's, you know, the context switching happens so much as you're taking risk. You open yourself... Like, your aperture opens up so much-

Codie Sanchez 37:09 Yeah

Jenny Just 37:09 ... that your, um, your regrouping becomes more important, not less important. Like, as we take more risk in AI, I, I make sure we step back and say, "Okay, is that really what we meant to do?"

Codie Sanchez 37:23 Mm.

Jenny Just 37:24 'Cause all of a sudden we're in, we're in so deep. You know, it's the same thing, you know, like I'm on the turn, I'm on that, that, that, that fourth card that comes out on the table, and I've got a lot of money in this thing. You know, the one thing as a trader you do, you go home at night, you mark to market everything.

Codie Sanchez 37:41 Yeah.

Jenny Just 37:41 If I had to start tomorrow, would I do exactly what I'm doing today? And if I didn't, and if, and if I shouldn't and I should pivot, I gotta get out. I gotta get out of that hand in some way. And some things you can't get out of, obviously. It's one thing to fold the poker hands, and another thing to get out of a business or a business line or something along those lines. But, um, the, the reassessment, the loop, right? And you don't have to go all the way back to the beginning. Once, you know, you're on 10 times of doing this, you're going back to five, and you're reassessing the five to 10 because you got better. You went to a different level, one to five, then you went to five to 10.

Codie Sanchez 38:16 Yeah.

Jenny Just 38:16 Right? And you're gonna come back and reassess, you know? I mean, there's no... I think there's no stopping learning. I think people think once you get to a certain, like, dollar amount or something, like, ooh, you, you know it, you know the answer. Oh, no. There's, there's a lot more to come, right? I remember, you know, um, Matt used to say, you know, "So what's your number?" Right?

Codie Sanchez 38:37 Mm. Yeah, totally.

Jenny Just 38:38 And, and we all would say it to each other in some form-

Codie Sanchez 38:41 What was it?

Jenny Just 38:43 Well, it was, it was 10 million bucks, right? Then it was 100 million bucks. Like, it... Wait, so then what? Right? It's, it's the same idea. How do you... Life moves, right? And if you have figured out a way, um... But that doesn't... It's not a, a given. I mean, you know, we've had some serious investments that have been really big valuations that have gone to zero. Like, we're talking 13 billion, a zero.

Codie Sanchez 39:13 Oof.

Jenny Just 39:14 So that, that, those are real. You're watching some of these AI stocks move around, like, people are getting hurt, and a lot of people are making a lot of money, right? If you're in crypto. So, like, every step is, opens you up, I think, differently. But I also think what I love, and I love about some of the people who, you know, are, are following you, is that I know where I wanna go, and I don't need to go to that next. You know? I think I have a, you know, a little bit of an entrepreneur's, you know, disease. I think so-

Codie Sanchez 39:50 You think after like 15 turnarounds-

Jenny Just 39:51 Yeah, yeah

Codie Sanchez 39:52 ... I was looking at all the companies-

Jenny Just 39:53 Yeah, yeah

Codie Sanchez 39:53 ... you've like taken and grown.

Jenny Just 39:54 It's... Yeah. Yeah, it's not... I have to really consciously tell myself to, "No." 'Cause it's interesting to me, and people who are entrepreneur, entrepreneurs are interesting to me.

Codie Sanchez 40:07 Yeah.

Jenny Just 40:07 Um, and I want to see them... I want them to feel what I got to feel, you know? Um, even, even the bad moments, right? They really have to be ready. I think that's the, the, you know, me in 1997 versus someone starting today, it's, it's... You're not sharing your fails, you know?

Codie Sanchez 40:27 Yeah.

Jenny Just 40:27 You're living your fails. Like, I just keep the, my fails on my desk, you know, just the list.

Codie Sanchez 40:33 Do you really?

Jenny Just 40:33 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 40:34 Like a piece of paper-

Jenny Just 40:35 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 40:35 ... with all of the things you lost money on?

Jenny Just 40:37 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 40:38 Wild. How... Is it one page, two page? [laughs]

Jenny Just 40:40 Oh, it's lo- So it's not all the tra- trading, 'cause there's so many trades, right? But it's the company fails, right?

Codie Sanchez 40:48 Wow. That's amazing.

Jenny Just 40:49 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 40:49 That reminds me of, like, Astro Teller from Google X.

Jenny Just 40:52 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 40:52 He used to put on his wall in his office his failure resume.

Jenny Just 40:57 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 40:57 It... You know, that's fascinating because my other friend who's a hedge fund manager, he does the same thing. In his bathroom, he has a, a picture, like really big one, and on it are all the companies that failed-

Jenny Just 41:09 That failed

Codie Sanchez 41:09 ... that he invested in.

Jenny Just 41:10 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 41:10 Um, and, like, some of the emails of people telling him, like-

Jenny Just 41:13 Mm

Codie Sanchez 41:13 ... "You shouldn't do this."

Jenny Just 41:14 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 41:14 And then he did it anyway.

Jenny Just 41:15 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 41:16 Well, what is that? Is that, like, an inoculation to remind yourself you're not superhuman?

Jenny Just 41:22 You know, time heals things, you know, and the pain and suffering of some of those. I, I don't want, I don't want to make that same mistake just because I can. Um, why should I lose, you know, $5 million or $50 million on something if I, I, I truly know better?

Codie Sanchez 41:46 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Just 41:46 When you have quantity, right? And, and I, and I think I, I heard you say recently, you know, "Why, why have three businesses that are okay when you can have one really good one?" I totally agree with that. It's distracting. Um, it's, it's, it's a heavy burden. Uh, but some people are just built for that, so the fun and the drive and the curiosity, "Can I?" Right? So we've created two billion-dollar bill- two m- multi-billion-dollar businesses. Do I wanna create a third? Absolutely.

Codie Sanchez 42:20 [laughs]

Jenny Just 42:21 Wish I didn't. Wish I didn't. I really do, though. I wanna prove it. Why? To who? Well, it's really, it's really to me, you know? Um, and nobody knows. Nobody really knows anything 'cause we're a private company, so... But, um, you know, it was one whisper, one moment in time 'cause we were supposed to take a comp- one of our companies public, um, and then we didn't. It was sort of in the SPAC craze. So that's one company, it gets leaked, and that's how that whole story goes. But it turns out that story is great, so that I can get- More women playing poker, right? So that, that's what drives me to, to be in public at all and talk. But, uh, it's a, you- it's an itch that you wanna scratch, and you, you have to be super conscientious. I don't care if you have a big business or a small business, but they- that desire, that's with the failure list.

Codie Sanchez 43:13 By the way, I have a live event. I only do one a year. It's huge. How big? Really big. In Austin, Texas, just for people who wanna make more money, buy businesses, build businesses. It's called Main Street Over Wall Street. So if you liked this episode, you're probably gonna wanna be there. There's only a couple hundred spots left, so click below. I wanna shake your hand in person in Austin, Texas, or go to msows.com, MSOWS. We'll see you there. Hey, it's your friend Codie. By the way, guys, I just realized that a bunch of you are not subscribed, which is crazy 'cause I feel like we hang out every week, and we talk about how to make your life better, how to make your bank account bigger, and I wanna do more of that. So one, thank you for being here. Like, sometimes I'm like, "Pinch me moment," you know? And also, share this with a friend, subscribe. The only way we grow is when you share it, and we only show up on your feed when you subscribe. So I promise that if you do that, I will continue to make this podcast a way for you to steal all my rich and successful friends so that your life can be even better every single day. Do you think you can teach people to love the game like that, like to become obsessed with just playing, whether the game-

Jenny Just 44:22 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 44:23 ... is business or p- poker or life? And if so, how do you, how do you teach yourself to love hard things-

Jenny Just 44:30 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 44:31 ... in business?

Jenny Just 44:32 So I think there has to be some inherent, like, desire that starts it. Can you put fuel on the fire? Absolutely. I think part of the way to do that is be surrounded by people who are amazing, right? Amazing in whatever way. So, like, we really, we yearn for, you know, in the arts, right? When we, you know, fashion, whatever it is, like, somebody, you know, Matt's some energy company in the middle of Utah, in the middle of nowhere the other day, just 'cause we're so curious. And so I think that curiosity builds, um, you know, sort of the awe of being a human, what other humans are capable of doing. And, and we so enjoy watching that. People enjoy, you know, hearing financial stuff from us, especially in Austin, which has been really funny. They're like, "We don't know you people-"

Codie Sanchez 45:27 Yeah.

Jenny Just 45:27 "... down here."

Codie Sanchez 45:28 Very much so.

Jenny Just 45:29 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 45:29 Yeah.

Jenny Just 45:29 So that's been fun since we moved to Austin. But, um-

Codie Sanchez 45:32 We don't know you people. [laughs]

Jenny Just 45:33 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 45:34 Now they will.

Jenny Just 45:34 Yeah, now they will. But yeah, that, I think when we are looking, I know you talk about, um, green and red flags, we are looking for someone who doesn't have all the answers. We are looking for someone who's curious and wants to, to figure them out, because I think it's inherently draw- drawing ideas. We do this a lot. Like, our very first piece of technology was because I went into a Wendy's, and, which is funny, and whenever I say that, I'm like, "Why was I eating at Wendy's?" But anyway.

Codie Sanchez 46:04 You look like you frequent the place.

Jenny Just 46:05 Right, right, exactly.

Codie Sanchez 46:06 Yeah. [laughs]

Jenny Just 46:06 Um, but literally, there was someone there taking the order, and then there was, you know, it used to be that big boulder of a screen was in the corner, and maybe you don't remember that, but I do. And someone was doing the fries, and you know, we used to laugh, "You're the fry guy," you know? But we, that was our, that was our tech we built, and because how were we gonna, as a couple people in a room, gonna manage... 'Cause you have to, the, you have to be broad enough in your trading, right? It's not like we're Goldman Sachs, and we have flow, right? We're just two people in a room. So we have to get a broad enough portfolio for this thing to make sense. But eventually, it became, it was Walgreens, it was Walmart, like, we created an inventory management system for options trading, and nobody had talked about that before. We literally had off-the-shelf models, where everybody was like, the smartest people were using, were creating the best models themselves, whereas we just bought. So we just approached the problem differently. How do you do that? I think by being curious about the world, you know? Being curious about learning new things, and, and, you know, abstract or angular to what you, what you normally do.

Codie Sanchez 47:18 What companies have you invested in or built or turned around that you're really proud of, uh, but you don't talk about a lot? 'Cause you have a lot of them.

Jenny Just 47:29 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 47:30 Like, are there a couple that you're like, "You know what? We did this thing, and nobody even knows"?

Jenny Just 47:33 We did this thing, knows. I, I think there's... I think there's a lot of pride in turning anything that's, like, hemorrhaging into not hemorrhaging. Like, there's a lot of pride just in that. There's a lot of pride in helping the people who are, who put their heart and soul into it to not feel like they caused a, a calamity, and were really part of something that worked. It just, it just needed some small tweaks. Um, I think there probably isn't... There, I think there's probably more that, I'm pretty tough. I'm not, I'm not the one to pat on the back very often. I think there's a lot more that I think we could've done a lot more for.

Codie Sanchez 48:23 Mm.

Jenny Just 48:24 Ultimately, there are people who are behind these things, right? That I wanted some other outcome, right? There's more fails than there are successes, and, but even ideas we had that we, you know, thought could be interesting. You know, we were, we were either cocky or stupid or, you know, we just didn't really understand it so much. You know, we've entered the insurtech space, which is fascinating. You know, I didn't think anything was older than the, sort of like the way the financial world, the, the meat and the, you know, the pipes of the financial system work. Oh, no, yeah, just go into the insurance side of it, and it's a whole nother... And that doesn't mean people wanna change.

Codie Sanchez 49:05 Yeah.

Jenny Just 49:05 And so those are the things where I, I mean, I just, the, the weight of the world on, like- I know we can. Does anybody care, right? And I'm trying to bring a team along to, to care with us and be different, um, and approach solving the world differently. But, you know, they're big industries. That's what, uh, and I think also why I get the entrepreneurial itch because there are s- you know, these smaller businesses that you can cont- continue to do that give amazing opportunity for a small team of people that you don't have to take on that, that massive world. Unfortunately, you know, we're sort of in that space. So, but yeah, I think I'm-

Codie Sanchez 49:51 You're big now, so-

Jenny Just 49:52 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 49:52 ... you know, you can't-

Jenny Just 49:53 Trying not to be

Codie Sanchez 49:53 ... you can't get the same-

Jenny Just 49:54 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 49:54 ... thing out of, like, a million dollar laundromat, you know?

Jenny Just 49:57 No. No.

Codie Sanchez 49:57 I don't know, maybe.

Jenny Just 49:58 You never know.

Codie Sanchez 49:58 [laughs]

Jenny Just 49:59 You never know where it might show up. You'd be... It, it's funny though, 'cause, um, one of my, my partners, he talks a lot about those types of businesses, and he and I would always talk about them. And so I'm fascinated by it. I think, I think there's an incredible amount of opportunity, um, you know, in sort of cycles. I think we're in a really good one right now-

Codie Sanchez 50:20 Mm

Jenny Just 50:20 ... with AI to help you sort of leverage it faster, um, like unique opportunities that come along, and, and what does that mean? Whether it's either just helping you on the marketing side or it's helping you on the research side, uh, or just helping you execute the bones of getting a company off the ground, which is always more burdensome than people think it is.

Codie Sanchez 50:42 Yeah.

Jenny Just 50:43 Um, but you have all those t- the tools in your toolkit just got fucking awesome. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 50:50 That's amazing, because I think a lot of people are really scared about AI right now.

Jenny Just 50:53 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 50:53 They're, like, pr- not as optimistic. May- maybe the f- like, builders, people who really understand-

Jenny Just 50:59 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 50:59 ... tech are like, "Oh my God, every day-"

Jenny Just 51:01 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 51:01 "... I almost can't keep up with the new things."

Jenny Just 51:03 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 51:03 But what would you say to somebody who right now is like, "I'm super scared of AI."

Jenny Just 51:06 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 51:06 "I actually think it's gonna take over and make me irrelevant."

Jenny Just 51:09 Yeah. Wildly important that you get your hands dirty, right? So, you know, for Poker Power, we're building tools all the time for our app, for marketing reasons, et cetera. I'm like, "I'm gonna get in there and build the tool myself."

Codie Sanchez 51:24 Mm.

Jenny Just 51:24 Right? So-

Codie Sanchez 51:25 What are you using? What are we coding with?

Jenny Just 51:27 What... Well, uh, all, Claude-

Codie Sanchez 51:29 Oh

Jenny Just 51:29 ... Code. Um, but-

Codie Sanchez 51:31 Do you ever use Replit too?

Jenny Just 51:32 I have not, but I, I've heard of it.

Codie Sanchez 51:34 Yeah.

Jenny Just 51:34 But, uh-

Codie Sanchez 51:35 I like how it's done

Jenny Just 51:35 ... but I think it's really important. Like, who cares that it doesn't go anywhere?

Codie Sanchez 51:39 Mm-hmm.

Jenny Just 51:39 Um, it helps in so many different ways from how to think about solving the problem to how to get a thought into the world, um, in some form or fashion to, a- at a minimum, having communication with somebody else or a technologist who knows. So I think, um, getting your hands dirty, like-

Codie Sanchez 52:01 And you can't mess it up, right?

Jenny Just 52:02 You can't mess it up.

Codie Sanchez 52:03 Which is super cool.

Jenny Just 52:04 Yeah. And by the way, everybody else is getting their hands dirty now too.

Codie Sanchez 52:08 Mm.

Jenny Just 52:08 They're not experts. Yes, there are some technologists. We're not trying to compete with those people.

Codie Sanchez 52:12 Yeah.

Jenny Just 52:13 Right? There's 98% of the world who's just like you.

Codie Sanchez 52:19 So we talked a little bit about poker, but, um, if business is a poker game, what are the deadliest tells in entrepreneurship? What do we have to watch out for that we are signaling to other people as entrepreneurs?

Jenny Just 52:32 I think entrepreneurs that the, the, their biggest tell is their overexcitement about the possibility, and so they have a great hand. I'm just not playing, you know, 'cause I don't believe, so... Or I might play strongly against them, meaning I might exit. Um, so, and, and we see that a lot 'cause we do see a lot of newbies that do come in, and we're happy to think and listen and hopefully mentor a little bit, but, um, nothing can go wrong. And it's like, I don't know, that, that flush might come out, and all you have is two pairs. So, and they're just not cognizant. Yeah. Just a, a little naivete, I would say.

Codie Sanchez 53:18 How do you, how do you f- flip that around?

Jenny Just 53:20 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 53:20 So if you are really excited, what, what is, what do you need to do to temper that?

Jenny Just 53:23 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 53:23 Is it having plans A, B, and C? Is it being honest about the risks?

Jenny Just 53:28 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 53:28 How would we get, how would we get Jenny on board? You know, if I'm like, "I'm an entrepreneur. I wanna do something with Jenny. I wanna show her how great I am, but also show her what a smart thinker I am."

Jenny Just 53:37 Yeah. There's a bunch of things. We always say there's, like, sort of not a formula. It's more like a picture.

Codie Sanchez 53:41 Mm.

Jenny Just 53:42 I think that they have to be aggressive on, uh, the offensive opportunity. They do. But if they can't address anything defensively and/or they cannot, um, they have not shown w- where they have failed in the past or acknowledgement of failure in some form or fashion, whether it's in this product or somewhere else, I think those become definitely red flags for us. Um, I want to know, like, you're gonna conquer the world, but I also want to know how you're gonna methodically get from A to B to C. So...

Codie Sanchez 54:17 I think a lot of times it's really important as an entrepreneur to understand what's happening in the room around you. Like, context is super important, not only in, um, you know, running a business, but let's just say there's somebody listening, and they want to get promoted, or they want to do better in their job, or they want somebody to take them more seriously. What can, what can poker

Codie Sanchez 54:38 tell us about reading the room in life? What cues?

Jenny Just 54:42 Yeah, so uh, th- this one I love only because it's so, so relevant, the context, right? We talked about levels of thinking. So if you're just thinking about your cards, you might get lucky. You have to be thinking about the other cards at the table. Then you have to think about what they're thinking about your cards.

Codie Sanchez 55:04 Mm.

Jenny Just 55:04 Right? So if I'm sitting across from someone and, and I want something to happen, I want more money, I want a different position, I want a different challenge, I want something, I have to think about what they're thinking, and I have to think about what they're thinking about- You know, it was my boss, the rest of my team. I have to think about what they're thinking about, what they ha- they owe to their boss, right? I have to set, literally set the table-

Codie Sanchez 55:28 Mm

Jenny Just 55:28 ... in, in, you know, full color as opposed to black and white, and that's where we get messed up. It's like, "I would love to give you more money, but did you hear? Were you in that meeting over there? It's probably not a good time." You know, it's just s- there are some things that are wildly simple, and people are just so adamant. They're like, they've been so frustrated, and they come in, and they just want A, B, and C, and it... and because they're not addressing the context. That's why when you sit at a poker table and, and you start to learn, right? And now you're like, "Oh, I'm gonna play with my family. Oh, I'm gonna play with my friends. Oh, I'm gonna play with strangers." Like, all of a sudden you go, "Oh, that's why this is like the office. That's why it's like that meeting. That's why it's like that conversation," um, 'cause I don't know everything about the people I work with. And one fascinating thing we've done with our management teams is have them play poker together. It's amazing what our s- our, our managers learn about their teams by playing poker with them, and vice versa, but, you know, obviously I hear more from the senior managers, but-

Codie Sanchez 56:32 Like, would an example be like, um, M- Mary always folds really early or doesn't put a lot of chips on tail.

Jenny Just 56:40 Absolutely.

Codie Sanchez 56:41 She doesn't take a lot of risks.

Jenny Just 56:42 Yeah, absolutely. No question. And then now it's a conversation.

Codie Sanchez 56:46 Yeah.

Jenny Just 56:46 You know? It's a conversation with Mary. Like, "I notice this." Um, like you wanna do it in a way so that Mary still keeps coming back to the table, right? 'Cause you want her there, but you want her to recognize, you know. So what do you see? How do you approach Mary? And, you know, what did you do on that hand? Why? What if? One thing you can probably work on, right? And all of a sudden she starts doing it, because that is way uncomfortable for Mary to do three times the big blind when she goes in. She just wants to tippy-toe in. So what message are you sending? And they start to learn. They start to... Th-this is where the self-assessment starts to come in and go, "Oh, wow, I didn't realize."

Codie Sanchez 57:27 Mm. So to wrap up, if, if there's... let's say there's a woman listening out there right now, and she knows, like you said, her gut, she knows that she's not taking the right level of risk that she wants to in her life. She is a little scared. She's not sure what to do next, and, you know, she might not have even understood all the things that we talked about today.

Jenny Just 57:49 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 57:50 Like, what would you tell her? "Hey, if you wanna level up your life next, and if you wanna change your mindset

Codie Sanchez 57:55 about risk and your capability," what advice would you give her?

Jenny Just 57:59 For me right now, because I've s- now I've seen the impact with so many women, hundreds of thousands, what, the emails I get, the, the, the LinkedIn stuff we do, the DMs, it... Learn poker. And, and I also say, like, if I could have learned poker when I was younger, I think I would've saved 10 years out of mistakes in my career.

Codie Sanchez 58:25 You would've had your third billion-dollar company.

Jenny Just 58:26 That's right. I'm behind. [laughing]

Codie Sanchez 58:30 [laughing] Real slacker.

Jenny Just 58:31 That's it.

Codie Sanchez 58:32 Jenny, this was such a pleasure. I love your mission. We're gonna put in the show notes the link to your website, which I think is... uh, I loved the risk question at the bottom-

Jenny Just 58:41 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 58:41 ... of the website, too. It made me think about what my risk was-

Jenny Just 58:43 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 58:43 ... for today, too. Um, and then also about Peak6, and then also most importantly, Poker Power-

Jenny Just 58:49 Great

Codie Sanchez 58:49 ... where they can go and learn more about how to p-play poker. Now, I think you were working on an app last time I talked to you.

Jenny Just 58:54 Yep. Oh, no doubt.

Codie Sanchez 58:55 Is that out now?

Jenny Just 58:55 Yeah, the app is out, Poker Power Play.

Codie Sanchez 58:57 Okay.

Jenny Just 58:58 That exists. Um, so we teach people in person. Um, we teach them virtually, and, uh, you know, we're doing it every day. We have 20-some-odd teachers across the US who are traveling or being online to, to help move the ball forward for anybody who's interested.

Codie Sanchez 59:15 That's wild.

Jenny Just 59:16 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 59:16 Do you think you're just competing, uh, creating a bunch of competitors now 'cause you're gonna get all these women now who want to take risks?

Jenny Just 59:21 That's so funny you said it. So my co-founder, Matt, he said, [laughs] he said exactly that. Uh, you literally, like one hour ago, and he's like, "That, that would be a pure joy for us to be able to do that."

Codie Sanchez 59:36 I love that.

Jenny Just 59:37 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 59:37 I think most people don't understand that, like, at your level of the game, I imagine, yeah, you wanna keep winning, you wanna keep building, but it's also something bigger.

Jenny Just 59:43 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 59:44 It's like, what are you gonna do? Take all the jets to the grave?

Jenny Just 59:46 [laughing]

Codie Sanchez 59:47 You know? No, we gotta leave some behind.

Jenny Just 59:49 That's right.

Codie Sanchez 59:49 Jenny, thank you so much for being here.

Jenny Just 59:51 Thank you so much. [outro music]