By playing, you agree to uListen's Terms and Privacy Policy and YouTube's Terms of Service.

Number 1 Communication Expert: Stop Doing This… People Will Like You More | Jefferson Fisher

I say it all the time: building real wealth doesn’t require a flashy startup — it just takes one boring, cash-flowing business. Join me at Main Street Millionaire Live to get my exact playbook for finding, buying, and scaling a business.

Jefferson FisherguestCodie Sanchezhost

Apr 23, 20251h 41mWatch on YouTube

Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.

Transcript

105 min read · 21,297 words

0:00 – 2:11
Understanding Bullying and Toxic Behavior
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  There are people that you may not call a bully, but they'll certainly boss you around. They might not steal your lunch money, but they will steal your self-esteem if they can.
2. CSCodie Sanchez
  You're going to love hearing from Jefferson Fisher. He just had a New York Times bestselling book come out. This is one of those episodes that I think every human needs to listen to.
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  The compliment sandwich is a little hard to chew and almost impossible to swallow.
4. CSCodie Sanchez
  How do you handle a toxic person?
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  If you're gonna say something ugly to me, and then I just let it hang, it is one of the most powerful moves you can make.
6. CSCodie Sanchez
  Can you tell if somebody is a high performer based on the way they communicate?
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  1,000%. If you always get out of your chair to stand your ground on every little issue, your legs are gonna get tired. Some people are worth getting out of your chair for, and some people aren't.
8. CSCodie Sanchez
  Hello, and welcome back to the Big Deal podcast. I'm Codie Sanchez, and this week's guest is amazing. You're going to love hearing from Jefferson Fisher, especially if you don't know what to do when you get insulted or bullied or have somebody say something to you that you think is disrespectful. You're going to love this conversation if you don't really know how to have difficult conversations. He just had a New York Times bestselling book come out. It's called The Next Conversation. The book is brilliant, and so I think you will get as much from this episode as I did. This is one of those episodes that I think every human needs to listen to. And the other thing I wanna leave you guys with today is that if somebody has sent you this podcast, I think that's really special 'cause it means they care about you. They wanna communicate with you. If there is somebody that you wanna communicate better with, that you care deeply for, I think this is a great podcast to share with just about anybody. What we've realized from watching the numbers is a lot of you all are also not subscribed. I know you're here listening to this podcast because you wanna be better. People who want to be better come here. People who don't are not part of our tribe. And so if you're not already subscribed, hit the button. That allows us to continue bringing you the best guests in the world to ask the questions that you care about and to have you be able to have content you can share with the people that you love, too. Without further ado, Jefferson
2:11 – 12:28
The Art of Communication in Difficult Situations
1. CSCodie Sanchez
  Fisher. But you seem really nice for... I met a lot of trial attorneys back in the day.
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  [laughs] Why?
3. CSCodie Sanchez
  I used to work in the mental health and Rule 11 competency court.
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, okay. Yeah.
5. CSCodie Sanchez
  Back... It was brutal.
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm.
7. CSCodie Sanchez
  Not that nice of people all the time.
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. Mm-hmm.
9. CSCodie Sanchez
  You seem very happy and nice and well-adjusted.
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  Well, thank you.
11. CSCodie Sanchez
  [laughs]
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  You can blame that on my parents.
13. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  I find that a lot of attorneys aren't nice.
15. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  They just think that that's what attorneys are supposed to be like-
17. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... or do or be. So to me, that's, you know, like, uh, uh, you put on a suit and tie.
19. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right? That doesn't change who they are.
21. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's also... It's their costume.
23. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's their, their c- s- suit and tie. They feel like that's who they have to become.
25. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  And so a lot of them I am personal friends with, and they are great. I mean, you see they're married.
27. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  Somebody liked them. They have [laughs]
29. CSCodie Sanchez
  Somebody. [laughs]
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  You know, somebody liked them enough for a little bit.
12:28 – 19:11
Knowing When to Stand Up for Yourself
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  um, I guess it's unjust f- then I'm much more prone to get out of my seat and say, "No, no, this is not, this isn't cool. That's not fair."
2. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  "This isn't equal. Don- you don't talk, you don't treat people that way." But if you, if you're the, the yippy dog that always barks at every car that goes by, it's that same principle of really nobody's gonna, nobody's gonna listen nearly as much.
4. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's, it's the walk quietly with a, a big stick-
6. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... kind of mentality. I mean, when, when you wanna stand up for yourself, it is this truth of knowing that I, I can, I can choose to say nothing, and a lot of the times that is far more powerful than anything I could say. If you're gonna say something ugly to me, and then I just let it hang, oh, it's, it's one of the most powerful things you can do-
8. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... is to look at them as if there's nothing that you've said that could ever harm me.
10. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  And then they just don't do it as much.
12. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  You sh- you're telling them it's not gonna be fun for you if you go down this road with me.
14. CSCodie Sanchez
  Interesting. Where did you learn that?
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  A lot of it is my upbringing. So I, in the book I talk about my... I'm the oldest of four.
16. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  I'm a fifth-generation trial attorney, so I've seen a lot of trials, heard a lot of trials, and I just had a weird childhood where... A g- a wonderful childhood where I'd get pick up from school, like, get put in the corner of my dad's deposition while he finishes, or to watch the end of a closing argument. Then as the oldest of four, had a lot of experience just resolving conflict. Uh, plenty of conflict between brothers and sisters. I'm the oldest, have my sister, and then my two younger brothers. And then a lot of it is, um, you'd think it was law school, but it's not.
18. CSCodie Sanchez
  Hmm.
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  You have trials, but it's... Trial is probably one of the most important ones because it's, let's say you're my witness, and let's say you're oppos- you're against me, you're adverse, and I have to cross-examine you, meaning I have to prove that you're wrong on something. Now, as you already know, there's another attorney who's gonna be ready to jump in and object to every question I have.
20. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  You have a judge that's gonna rule on the evidence of if my question passes. You have a bailiff, court reporter, and then there's probably 12 people, if we're in district court in the state of Texas, that are going to all be listening to everything that I do, and it's not so much the question I'm asking, it's how I'm asking it.
22. CSCodie Sanchez
  Hmm.
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  So I could be saying something, and let's say the other person objects, judge rules against me. If I act like I'm really upset about it, they're gonna think, "Oh, that's bad for his case." If I, if you say something and I act like it really hurts me and I get mad, like, "Oh, that's not true," they're gonna know, oh, this is actually bad for his case.
24. CSCodie Sanchez
  Hmm.
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's this way of processing information with the understanding that there are other people in the room. Even if you don't know it, even if you're not seeing it, there are other people that are always paying attention to what you're doing.
26. CSCodie Sanchez
  Wow. So it's, trial almost sounds like it's like communication poker.
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  Ooh, that's a good way of putting it.
28. CSCodie Sanchez
  It's-
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to play the hands that you're dealt.
30. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
19:11 – 29:09
Dealing with Complaints and Negativity
1. CSCodie Sanchez
  and it was-
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh
3. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... totally counter to everything that I've thought to do-
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right
5. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... when people are complaining. Can you tell me what do you, what do you do when somebody's complaining and you don't want them to keep going?
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  When somebody is complaining, you want them to stop. The trick is to make them keep going because if you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard all of it.
7. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  Meaning that there's a source of it that they haven't told you. You're only hearing the symptoms of it. Think of a... So I have a seven-year-old and a five-year-old.
9. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  My daughter can complain about the food, about what she's wearing. She's t- she doesn't wanna do this, she doesn't wanna do that, and she starts to whine. It's not about the food. It's not about what's going on. It's that she's tired.
11. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right? It's just, like, at your base need. Some people, we know this, uh, me included, everybody, all of a sudden you feel grumpy and you feel irritable. You're just hungry. So there's always, like, this spot that the issue that you're voicing is rarely the issue. So when somebody's complaining to you, it's... What I like to say is, "What else?" There's one phrase that I like to use is, "What else?"
13. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  Because they will find something else, but then they kinda run out of steam.
15. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  And then you transfer it... Once you feel like they're out of steam, because that's the... You gotta, you gotta let them out. You have to let them get it all out, or they're not gonna listen to you, period. And so as l- as soon as they get it all out, it's this idea of, um, what do you think we should do?
17. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  As soon as you try to, like, start getting them to think of solutions, but make it to where they're the ones that are proposing the solutions. If you were to ask, "Well, what do you think the next step is?" Or my favorite is, "Well, what's the other part of you say?"
19. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  What's the other part of you say? Because we all have two different parts.
21. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  There's a part who believes in it and the part who wants to complain. The part who wants to be positive and the part that wants to be negative, and so what you're just hearing is the negative part. And when they kinda get it all out, and then once you feel like they're at a good pausing position, you say, "What's the other part of you say?" And they'll go, "Well, I mean, you know, he probably didn't do that on purpose. I mean, and if I were him..." And then all of a sudden the dynamic changes because you heard the negative.
23. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  The positive's still there. There's al- always is. You just have to ask, "What's the other part of you say?"
25. CSCodie Sanchez
  Interesting. What about, does that work always? Like, you know how, do you ever get in a complaining loop yourself where you find yourself kind of repeating about the same thing that's happening in the world? I think we all-
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, yeah
27. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... know somebody who does that.
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm. Yeah.
29. CSCodie Sanchez
  And at some point, I'm not so sure that it's not that we don't know the issue. It's just that we get habitually complaining.
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
29:09 – 34:12
Responding to Bullies and Toxic People
1. CSCodie Sanchez
  a bully?
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  When you're dealing with bullies, we all know from growing up, it's these people that have unmet needs-
3. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... from when they were growing up. Same thing in everyday workplace. When you're dealing with somebody belittling you or being rude or condescending, when they do that, what I want you to do is to ask them a question, and it's a question that they're not gonna be used to, and it is you're asking them to say it again. Whenever you ask them to repeat it, it's something they were not ex- number one, they weren't expecting it.
5. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  Number two, they're not gonna wanna do it because it, the first effect is gone. You- you've already blown out the candle. They don't wanna have to relight it. It's this idea of, "I already said the bad thing. Oh, no, they didn't, I didn't get the reaction what I want. I didn't get that hit of dopamine. I didn't get that, that self-gratification." Instead, if you were to say something ugly as a bully or somebody who's being ugly in the workplace, and I say, "I, can you catch, can you say that again? I didn't catch all of that. Can you, can you repeat that for me?" It is not nearly as fun for them the second go around. And whenever that happens, if they have the guts, which they probably won't, but if they have the guts to repeat it, then you ask a question of intent. Like, did you s- did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? Did you say that to make me upset? Did you want that to hurt me? You can begin it with, "Did you," or, how did you expect me to respond to that?
7. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  How did you feel when you, when you said that to me? These are things that, again, just like we talked about, you're not catching it and throwing it back.
9. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  It hasn't even reached your doorstep yet.
11. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  Because all you've done is just taken that spotlight that was on you and just go, look, put it right back on them, 'cause it's a mirror.
13. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  That's all, that's all you're doing-
15. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... whenever you do that.
17. CSCodie Sanchez
  It's really good, because I was looking up statistics prior to this, and I knew that there was a lot of... I love a statistic. Although these days, who knows what's fact or fiction, but-
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's true
19. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... what the internet was telling me, which is always a dangerous place to start, is that for young people today-
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
21. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... that there was a couple studies done by Boys & Girls Club that, like, 48% of kids under 20 experience bullying on a monthly basis.
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
23. CSCodie Sanchez
  Seemed, like, reasonable, maybe a lot. Then what surprised me is the number of adults that say that they get bullied, which is more like 30 to 39%, based on two different studies.
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  That surprises you?
25. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah, I guess so. I, I, I can't imagine, uh, using the word bully, maybe.
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  Maybe that's it.
27. CSCodie Sanchez
  May- maybe, uh, to me, there's some usage of the word bullying as an adult that feels like, uh, you're almost giving them power. Like, you can't, you can't bully me. You could be ugly. You could be rude.
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
29. CSCodie Sanchez
  You could be inappropriate, but why would I label you... Because the way that I visualize a bully is, like, somebody big, kind of angry-
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  Stealing your lunch money.
34:12 – 39:12
The High School Dynamics of Adult Life
1. CSCodie Sanchez
  So, so really, we shouldn't be surprised when there's bullying behavior in the workplace, because we're all kind of just giant adult kids, and people are struggling with this every single day.
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  The world is one big high school.
3. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah. [laughs]
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  One big high school.
5. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  And it's from the haves and have-nots. Who's the, the pretty get ready with me in the morning popular girls-
7. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... to the who let's go get our gains and eat a dozen eggs while we work out our calves. You know, I don't know. So-
9. CSCodie Sanchez
  Nobody wants to be-
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, exactly
11. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... either of those from me.
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13. CSCodie Sanchez
  You could maybe.
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, well, you know.
15. CSCodie Sanchez
  [laughs]
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  I'm working on it. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's all the same spectrum.
17. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  But there definitely is that segment of people who would say, "Yeah, I, in some way I am... I feel bullied. I'm pushed around."
19. CSCodie Sanchez
  Of course.
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  "And I, I, I don't feel good about it." And I can tell you from the amount of people that, um, have been so wonderful and so kind and have given the messages of, "I have a bully at the workplace. I have a, a mother who pushes me around. I have a sister-in-law who I don't wanna have to see," there's all kinds of behaviors that are the unmet needs. And it's f- so funny, Codie, to see that when we get older, how much of that's resembled from our parents.
21. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  How much resembles of that from the people that we were around that we didn't know when we were kids.
23. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah. You know, sometimes I think about, um... You know, have you ever met somebody who's just great at comebacks? Like, they're just, like-
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
25. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... sometimes I think... Remember that show Entourage back in the day?
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
27. CSCodie Sanchez
  I always liked Ari, because people would say terrible things to him.
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  I think that was right when we were in... I w- I think we're-
29. CSCodie Sanchez
  We were probably similar ages.
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, yeah.
39:12 – 41:01
Mastering Comebacks and Insults
1. CSCodie Sanchez
  That is a real superpower. So okay, so somebody says something ugly to you.
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm.
3. CSCodie Sanchez
  You pause three to five to seven seconds-
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
5. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... something like that, and then what?
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  They-
7. CSCodie Sanchez
  What if they come back?
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  Cool. So w- when they insult you, number one, I want you to give it five to seven seconds of nothing. Number two, you're gonna ask a question of in- uh, intent or outcome. What were you looking for when you said that to me? A lot of the times, that, that does nothing for them. They're not gonna do anything. They, they, they just will stammer over themselves. Number three, it doesn't matter what they tell you or give you, just walk away.
9. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  That's that ending part we were talking about of just, just let it go. There's nothing that they can do with that anymore. They call you names and hope that you will say something worse.
11. CSCodie Sanchez
  Eh.
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  That's generally what it, what it is. But they say that for, for their own fight or flight. When they call you a name, it's because most of the time they're feeling something, that they wanna cause you pain.
13. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  They want that to hurt. Same thing with somebody who's on the phone with you, and they go, "You know what? I'm outta here," click. Or, "I can't... Get me out of here," and they leave the room. That's their, that's their flight. That's the same thing. They, they say... It's like picking up a, I don't know, picking up a pen and wanting to throw it at you.
15. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  Instead of an object, I'm using my words.
17. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  Same thing. I want the same exact result, same intent.
19. CSCodie Sanchez
  Fascinating. You know what I really liked about the book, and really, all of your work, is you can apply it certainly to difficult, um, ugly conversations, but you can also, it seems like, really elevate your power through it as well.
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
21. CSCodie Sanchez
  And so, you know, I was thinking about high-performance communication, and, and I was wondering, one, can you tell if somebody is going to be a high performer
41:01 – 46:01
The Art of High-Performance Communication
1. CSCodie Sanchez
  or going to be successful based on the way that they communicate?
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  1000%, and I'll tell you the biggest key is their pace.
3. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  How fast or slow they respond. If you ask me a question, or let's say I'm interviewing, and you ask me an important interview question, and I immediately respond, "Yeah, that's probably true. You know, I'm thinking," and again, this is in my experience, and I'm just, "Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba," what it's indicating is I didn't really listen all the way because-
5. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... it's possible I missed the low-hanging fruit. I missed the whole point of this.
7. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  Because it's not just the experience and the words. It's how you handle the present.
9. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  Versus if you ask me a question, and all a sudden, all of a sudden I went, [inhales] "In my experience," and then I went on, and I slowed down my words, all it says is I am controlled.
11. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  I'm not emotionally reactive. It's the same people that, and this is not to step on anybody's toes, if you cuss in every other sentence, what you really indicate is, "I am emotionally sensitive."
13. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's I, I'm over-seasoning my food. I don't have any other words to explain how I'm feeling or what I'm doing, so I just expect that throwing a curse word right in front of it is gonna make it more impactful in some way. But it also dilutes the message-
15. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... because that's not what anybody hears. So it's kind of that same exact concept, the pace of your conversation. The difference be- between if I w- I was gonna say, "I already told you I'm not gonna do that, Codie. I already told you I'm not gonna do that," versus, "I already told you I'm not going to do that."
17. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  Like, that right there is, who sounds more in control? Who sounds like they can be relied upon? Who sounds like this is a person who knows what's happening?
19. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  Who sounds like the person who's... Cannot be moved? It's always the slower.
21. CSCodie Sanchez
  How do you work on your inflection in order for people to take you seriously? Because you have incredible pacing, inflection, presence, eye contact.
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
23. CSCodie Sanchez
  That is hard, I think, for a lot of people to do. What advice would you give somebody who doesn't think too much about the way they say things, uh, but only thinks about what they say?
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, that's a good question. Number one is you wanna use a tone that goes down. So if you pictured it, for anybody listening, if you pictured it on a graph, you wanna start at, like, a five, and then you kind of go down to a two.
25. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  So you use it in a tone of, let's say, like, at the table, and I ask- I was gonna ask you to pass me the salt. I wouldn't say, "Can you pass me the salt?" As if, like, you don't know what it is.
27. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  I'm gonna say, "Can you pass me the salt?" So you're going down with it. Every time person who goes up on the inflection, it sounds a lot more, uh, uncertain.
29. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  Unsure. So you wanna kind of end downward and slow your words down. Two, for eye contact, and I know we have a mutual friend, Vanessa. I know she also talks about this. People are much more forgiving if you don't keep eye contact, uh, eye contact the whole time. You can look around, but as long as you end the last bit of your sentence with eye contact, nobody will know the difference.
46:01 – 51:22
Calm Energy in Leadership
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm.
2. CSCodie Sanchez
  Um, you talk smoothly. I wouldn't say you talk slow, though. I- I guess, I suppose, as opposed to a lot of people-
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
4. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... including me, you talk slower.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
6. CSCodie Sanchez
  But there is also a real fine line between somebody who doesn't communicate concisely-
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm
8. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... and somebody who communicates concisely but slowly. So if somebody's listening to this, how do they determine, hey, I'm just talking smo- s- uh, smooth but slow versus I'm just talking too slow and not getting to the point?
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, well, usually you can tell that by the frustration of the other person.
10. CSCodie Sanchez
  [laughs]
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, yeah.
12. CSCodie Sanchez
  The feedback from your partner.
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, the other person will start doing what we talked about. You start popping your knuckles and-
14. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... breathing out your nose and getting frustrated because it's creating that anxiety in the, in the conversation whenever you're, you're doing that. I f- I think that everybody right now at this, this point of our life, we really are searching for calm energy. You, you want a leader to lead, they have calm energy. The, the high performers, the people who are relied upon, they say, "You know what? I know that Codie is... She knows what she's doing. Oh, I don't know what's going on. Thank goodness Codie does." It's because of the calm energy. You think of any movie you've seen-
16. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... or you think of anybody in combat, it's the leaders have the calm energy. They do not respond emotionally to the chaos, and those are the people that people look to, and they look for that in everyday conversation. There's a reason why when you go into your grandmother's house, all of a sudden you feel at ease.
18. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's that calm energy that says, "Don't worry, honey. You're good. Tell me all about it." When you have this sense of you go into one of my favorite restaurants, it's this mom and pop. Every- she calls everybody honey, calls everybody darling, sweetie. It's like, yes, I just love-
20. CSCodie Sanchez
  [laughs]
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  We need that. We really do. More than you think, we need that calm energy.
22. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  When you're around these people that are always anxious, always go, go, go, always wanna just, you gotta 10X everything about your life, like, that is... That's a quick way to being really unsatisfied-
24. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... with a lot of, lot of things. Um, there's nothing wrong with talking slow.
26. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  I would say people say I talk slower in person than I do in my videos because I'm not having to cram-
28. CSCodie Sanchez
  Same
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... everything into 47 seconds.
30. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yes.
51:22 – 56:30
Navigating Emotions in Conversations
1. CSCodie Sanchez
  You know, what's interesting is, um, this is so good for negotiation too. You talk a lot about just communication and conversations in general.
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
3. CSCodie Sanchez
  But so much of this, it just reminds me of a mixture of like Robert Greene and also Chris Voss and-
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
5. CSCodie Sanchez
  Have you talked to Chris yet?
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
7. CSCodie Sanchez
  Oh, yeah. He's got, you guys have that same voice too. Like his, has he done his radio operator voice for you yet?
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh yeah, of course.
9. CSCodie Sanchez
  [laughs]
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, yeah, and his-
11. CSCodie Sanchez
  Is that like step one? [laughs]
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. Oh my goodness. And his stuff is, uh, mine, I, I guess we came at it totally different ways. And mine's more of this like good old country, you know, whatever.
13. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  And his is this more northern vibe-
15. CSCodie Sanchez
  Urban
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... mob boss-
17. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah. [laughs]
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... type of like, he could a- he could, he could convince me to give you, me to like give him my couch while I sit on it.
19. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  Like that's just what his voice can do. So I, I'm very curious what the actual statistics would be about the important- importance of voice.
21. CSCodie Sanchez
  Oh, it's gotta be high.
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  It has to be so high of what it does. 'Cause he would be like, "I agree, that's a, it is a great couch. I agree, I just, I need your couch."
23. CSCodie Sanchez
  [laughs]
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  And you're like, "Dang. All right."
25. CSCodie Sanchez
  He seems like he needs it.
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
27. CSCodie Sanchez
  I d- well, you know what's funny is, him in particular, I think, I've learned a ton from watching his stuff, and people are gonna learn so much from reading your book, because I t- one of my favorite mentors of all time said, uh, "If you're not capable of having difficult conversations to the point where you start to enjoy them because you learn from them, you'll probably never be very successful."
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, yeah. That's a good...
29. CSCodie Sanchez
  And-
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  That's very true. I love that.
56:30 – 1:01:55
Understanding Narcissism and Communication
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  The narcissist is never them.
2. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  The, the difficult person is never them. It's always the, "Oh my goodness, your content helped me so much with my narcissistic ex-husband," or, "My narcissistic cousin," or whatever it is. It's just funny how the person they're having a problem with is never themselves. Now, that's not to say there are people that are truly, have narcissistic tendencies.
4. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  And you're exactly right. There is... I've certainly seen it, I know you've certainly seen it, that people are very quick, uh, if you disagree with me or we have a little scuffle or we have a breakup, "Well, you're just a narcissist. All you do is care about yourself." Well, a lot of it too is just self-preservation. I'm gonna say things that benefit me. I'm not gonna say things that benefit you. And out of that, we find that to be narcissistic. Now, there's certainly tendencies of somebody being manipulative, people lying, people-
6. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... gaslighting, that is a problem. I'm not a psychiatrist.
8. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  I don't know if anybody here is a psychiatrist.
10. CSCodie Sanchez
  Absolutely not.
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, yeah. [laughs] So I, I'm not one to say if somebody is a, a diagnosed narcissist or not.
12. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  I can say 10 years ago I don't think anybody said the word. Uh, now all of a sudden they've popped up everywhere. It's all the same people. We've just decided that's how we're gonna label and, and categorize it. So it's, you have to be really careful with how you categorize people.
14. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah. It d- does seem like that to me, because I think these days we're so quick to judge whatever the other side is-
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right
16. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... on every side of the issue.
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
18. CSCodie Sanchez
  And what I love about your content and what you put in the book is that it's really not so much about the other person being bad, it's almost everything is super reasonable in how you respond.
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
20. CSCodie Sanchez
  You're not Ari from Entourage trying to make the other person-
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  [laughs]
22. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... feel bad, actually, which I wanted a little bit of.
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
24. CSCodie Sanchez
  You're the opposite of that.
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
26. CSCodie Sanchez
  You're just saying, "I'm gonna down-regulate," and like, "If you decide to continue to act in a way that I don't like, that's okay." Now, one thing that I, um, I was thinking about, uh, jobs, and I was like, oh, man. You had one video where you talked about what to do when somebody cries-
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, yeah
28. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... in an argument.
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
30. CSCodie Sanchez
  And I need to know two things.
1:01:55 – 1:09:08
Crying in the Workplace: A Natural Response
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  would be never apologize for it.
2. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  You're not gonna say anything, "I'm so sorry about this."
4. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  Two is gonna be that you label those tears. And if you're the other person, you're never gonna make somebody feel bad for it. You're not gonna call them out. If you wanna just nudge a tissue for them, that's it. Don't pick it up and go, "Here."
6. CSCodie Sanchez
  [laughs]
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  Throw it at them or something. Just be there. And don't stop the communication. If the other person's crying, don't, don't stop. You can say you need a timeout, that's fine. Otherwise, you just keep listening.
8. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  In fact, you say out loud, "I'm listening. I'm listening. Keep going, I'm listening." A- as if, "Don't worry about this. I, I'm not paying attention to any of that. I'm, I'm listening. Keep going." Like, it... That is way more empowering than you going, "Are, oh, are, are you okay? You crying? Do we need to have a timeout? Are you..." As soon as you're calling attention to it, you've already went off track.
10. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah, because you're alm- it's almost like you're anxious about their emotions. You're like, oh-
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
12. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... let me put this away. Hide it. Put it in a box.
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  Exactly.
14. CSCodie Sanchez
  Get it out of here.
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, no, we can't see it. Exactly.
16. CSCodie Sanchez
  That was, that was me, for sure.
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
18. CSCodie Sanchez
  Totally failed.
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  Well, and there... But there are also people that use tears to manipulate, and there are people that can whip up tears on a dime-
20. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... to get what they want. But that all the more highlights the importance of that does not change how you are going to talk to them.
22. CSCodie Sanchez
  Interesting. Yeah, I get-
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  I'm listening. I'm here. You're good. As if it's not bothering you at all. I mean, just, it's just part of-
24. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... biology. You wouldn't do anything different if you scratched their eye. I mean, it's an itch that they scratched because their body told them it does.
26. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's no different.
28. CSCodie Sanchez
  Don't label it more.
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. If you don't, you, you don't say, "Oh, you need to blow your nose? Here we go." It's like, it's just part of what makes us a human.
30. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
1:09:08 – 1:10:43
The Balance of Likability and Competence
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  I don't know. Maybe it's a Pearl Jam. Maybe, maybe it's somebody who's a lot more harder, off the cuff. Maybe there's some Metallicas out there. I mean, they're people that you, you apply that, that's how you want to listen to them, and that's how long you wanna listen to them. Some people that are easy to listen to and go, "You know what? I could, I could put this on in the background. I can listen," versus the, "I, I honestly can't take much of their personality."
2. CSCodie Sanchez
  [laughs]
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's, it's, I... It's like I don't enjoy that kind of music.
4. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's the same exact concept.
6. CSCodie Sanchez
  That's actually a great mechanism to use to see if you want to spend more time with somebody or not.
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
8. CSCodie Sanchez
  'Cause as I was picturing faces, I had an immediate reaction-
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
10. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... to song, which might actually tell you whether this is a friend you wanna spend a lot of time with.
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, or a spouse. I mean, or-
12. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... a relationship. It's, uh, what's the band that you, you put with them? 'Cause that's, that's the vibe.
14. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah, it's a good point. And there's no right or wrong answer. It's just right or wrong for you-
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
16. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... which I like.
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. It's all, it's all a matter of taste.
18. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah. We actually, when I first started filming content, when, uh, like, maybe you guys are like me, but when I'm seriously thinking about something, and you're, like, deep in your mind in it, I'm very, I have a very serious face. And so I make this intense face. And so they used to have to put this big, uh, this big sign behind me that just said, "Smile, bitch."
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  [laughs]
20. CSCodie Sanchez
  [laughs] Because-
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
22. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... 'cause I just don't.
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
24. CSCodie Sanchez
  And so, and, and I realized, though, that I think if you can choose almost between, in many instances, hyper-competence or hyper-likability, I might err on the side of likability more often than I ever thought.
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, yeah.
26. CSCodie Sanchez
  And y-
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  Why not?
28. CSCodie Sanchez
  This is a perfect example of why. But this is coming from a finance hardo like me-
1:10:43 – 1:15:03
The Power of Authenticity in Communication
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. [laughs]
2. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... where I thought I would choose hyper-competence all the time.
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
4. CSCodie Sanchez
  It's not the case, though.
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  It is extremely effective. It, it loses its steam faster than likability.
6. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  You, you can do something because somebody's really efficient. You will do it more if you like them. And so it's, people will follow you longer.
8. CSCodie Sanchez
  Uh-huh.
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  People will listen to you longer. People are willing to make shortcuts, exceptions. They will make a miracle for you if they like you.
10. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  And that's not from a position of faking it. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying at all.
12. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  I mean, you know good and well from our personalities, there's no faking this. People know that's not what, what-
14. CSCodie Sanchez
  No, we'll figure you out real quick.
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  Exactly. Yeah, yeah. It's just who we are. Now, a- anybody can call a spade a spade, so I- I'm not at all saying you have to smile or be warm. And if that's not you, don't, don't worry about it. You always have to be authentic and genuine to yourself.
16. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  I would say f- also for me, from even the importance of in trial litigation, I might be sitting down, and somebody else is questioning a witness.
18. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  If the judge rules against me on something, maybe the attorney is going into something we agreed already before the trial strategy he can't go into. Now, if I object and go, "Objection, Your Honor. He can't, we, uh, you know, he can't talk about this," and that's a speaking objection. Don't worry about it. If, if I said something, "Objection, Your Honor," hearsay, and the judge ruled against me for some reason, and I went, "Pfft," and I acted put out, now how do you think the jury is gonna react? They're gonna go, "Oh, there's something he doesn't want us to know." They're gonna say, "Oh, he's hiding something."
20. CSCodie Sanchez
  "What does he want to listen?"
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  "Oh, he's not authentic. Oh, it's not real," versus me acting like it just doesn't bother me.
22. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  And so most of the time, if you can just act pleasant and polite... If you have a hard time doing that, then that's, that's just gonna be a hard life-
24. CSCodie Sanchez
  [laughs]
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... I, I, I find it, in, in my opinion. There's a lot to be happy a- about. But yeah, if you, if you can be... If you smile, it's never gonna hurt you. That, that doesn't mean it's like it, for some people, you constantly have to... I have to remember, oh, yeah, I, my neutral face is not that likable. There's some that, like my sister. I love my sister. Sarah, uh, uh, if you're listening, I love you.
26. CSCodie Sanchez
  [laughs]
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  That, um, when she's not smiling, you think she hates everybody.
28. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  I mean, she has a-
30. CSCodie Sanchez
  We all have that
1:15:03 – 1:19:08
The Art of Listening
1. CSCodie Sanchez
  human issues. What do you not talk about as much-
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  Well-
3. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... that you wish you could?
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  Listening.
5. CSCodie Sanchez
  Hmm.
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  It, any time I've made a video on listening, it's the worst viewed video I ever have.
7. CSCodie Sanchez
  Why?
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  Nobody wants to learn how to listen.
9. CSCodie Sanchez
  That's true.
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  [laughs] They love the stuff I have on how to deal with a toxic personality or a narcissist or how to-
11. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... you know, how to handle those belittling comments. But they, they don't wanna listen to the how to listen better.
13. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah, why, why is that? Because we think that it's just other people don't listen to us-
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
15. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... not we don't listen to-
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  You got it
17. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... other people?
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's, because the problem isn't us, the problem is them.
19. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  And what happens is they miss so much of the good stuff in life-
21. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... by not listening. They hear active listening, which I don't even know if I know what that means. But it's, for somebody who interviews, for example, if you're only focused on the next question, you're not really listening to what I say.
23. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  And then it becomes a little inorganic and mechanical.
25. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  New attorneys do this, very green attorneys. Say I might be in a deposition, and they'll go, um, "And you were treated by X doctor?" And while the person is talking, they're just looking down at their next question, and they'll go, "Okay," uh, and they read the next question. They, they just missed the low-hanging fruit, the wonderful fact that that client or that witness just gave them.
27. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  And so too often we w- we're not listening to understand, we're listening to respond, and that's very natural, but that's where if you can just slow your conversation down to just have the pauses in it, that means I'm fully listening to your question.
29. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  Just like we talked about, there's a difference between if you said, "Hey, Jefferson, how was your day?" And I was like, "Good. It was good. Really good," versus you asking me, "Hey, Jefferson, how was your day?" And I said, "It was good, Codie. It was a good day." Like, which one sounds like you actually listened? Which one sounds like you actually absorbed it? It's always the one that has the pauses, and it costs you nothing to do.
1:19:08 – 1:24:41
The Importance of Asking Questions
1. JFJefferson Fisher
  Nobody would know.
2. CSCodie Sanchez
  Okay, good. So he sits down with this famous person, and, um, everybody else is trying to get the famous person's attention. And, uh, as he's sitting down with him, all he does is asks him questions. He doesn't tell him anything about him. He doesn't show how smart he is. He does nothing else except ask ques- ask questions. And then at the very end, he hears this person explaining to another person how he met this fascinating young man- ... at this dinner. When in reality, what was fascinating was just he let him speak about himself the whole time.
3. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. Yeah.
4. CSCodie Sanchez
  And I don't know why, but that just stuck with me so much. I was like-
5. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, yeah
6. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... that is a superpower to be able to sit and listen to somebody. You don't have to be interesting.
7. JFJefferson Fisher
  No.
8. CSCodie Sanchez
  You don't have to be smart.
9. JFJefferson Fisher
  No.
10. CSCodie Sanchez
  You don't have to be good-looking. You can just be intent in your listening.
11. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
12. CSCodie Sanchez
  And it's so rare these days that people will, they will think you are fascinating by saying almost nothing except a question.
13. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. The number one instant ability to have somebody like you is you don't even have to like them.
14. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
15. JFJefferson Fisher
  You just have to be interested enough to ask them more questions, and you use their name. If I use your name, let's say four or five times in conversation, you're gonna go, "Oh, my gosh. I really like this person." It doesn't even really matter what we talk about, but if I use your name, Codie, back and forth, and every once in a while go, "Yeah, you know, Codie, that's a really good point," or, "Codie, what are you thinking about?" All of a sudden you go, "You know what? This person's so pleasant. Oh, they say wonderful things." There's nothing more sweeter than the sound of their own name. If you want people to listen-
16. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm
17. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... use their name.
18. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
19. JFJefferson Fisher
  When somebody is talking, trying to overpower a boardroom-
20. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm
21. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... or a Zoom meeting, use their name. They'll stop. I mean, it's, it's like a, a deer in headlights. It's the bell that they can't help but listen to. If you keep on and on, on, and you're talking, I say, "Codie." You keep going, I say, "Codie," you'll stop.
22. CSCodie Sanchez
  You're right.
23. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. It, it's, it's something that it gets our attention every single time, and we love it. We can't, we can't get enough of our name. Uh, it's, it's like a, like a dog. You s- you say its name, and it, it perks up. It's a thing that they recognize.
24. CSCodie Sanchez
  I like you more already.
25. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. [laughs]
26. CSCodie Sanchez
  You already said my name four or five times. I'm in.
27. JFJefferson Fisher
  There you go. I'm telling you.
28. CSCodie Sanchez
  I'm a huge Jefferson fan.
29. JFJefferson Fisher
  I was telling you. Right, right, right.
30. CSCodie Sanchez
  It was wild.
1:24:41 – 1:31:18
Navigating Difficult Conversations
1. CSCodie Sanchez
  it's a, w- you know, zero-sum game.
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
3. CSCodie Sanchez
  You either get all the information to make the best decision, or you don't.
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
5. CSCodie Sanchez
  And, uh, and I think life might be like that.
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  I-
7. CSCodie Sanchez
  Like, difficult questions equal the right outcome.
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. I, I, what I have found to be true is that people that are in positions of success-
9. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... and you were to ask them the question of, "How did you get that?" The answer will be, "I asked." I mean, there's just so many times, "I asked them." How did you get their number? "I asked them." How did you get that position? "I asked for it." There's just, it's the fear of not wanting to make the ask, and it's not difficult. When you can pos- put yourself as the position of the learner-
11. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... no matter what. Let's say it's a, uh, you're new at the company, and you're looking at hopefully getting a, a raise soon or something. You wanna work your way up. Instead of coming into that conversation going, "This is what I want"- Um, and I want that. That's a little bit different from me saying, "How did you get to where you are?" Or, "If I wanted a, a raise, you know, how, how does that happen?" Or, "When you got a raise, how did you do that?"
13. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  You put it, them as the teacher, them the Yoda, you the, the, what, what is it, Padawan? I don't know.
15. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah, there you go.
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, yeah.
17. CSCodie Sanchez
  Skywalker.
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19. CSCodie Sanchez
  Nailed it.
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  All right. Nailed it.
21. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah.
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  That as soon as you're able to do that of, "Teach me your ways, Sensei," they will give it to you.
23. CSCodie Sanchez
  That's right.
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  And they're happy to do it. You ask the people who've made the most money you've ever made, they are generous with their advice, generous with their lessons, because that's, a lot of the time, that's the easiest form of generosity that they can have, and they're looking forward to it.
25. CSCodie Sanchez
  Oh, yeah.
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  I mean, even the wealthiest people we know can be extremely alone.
27. CSCodie Sanchez
  Oh.
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  And so to, for them to be able to share a little bit with you, you just, you just have the ability to pick up nuggets.
29. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah. I, advice I got from another mentor of mine was, "If you wanna, uh, get money, ask for advice, and if you wanna get advice, ask for money."
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, that's good.
1:31:18 – 1:34:58
Building Meaningful Relationships
1. CSCodie Sanchez
  about?
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  Oh, that's not easy.
3. CSCodie Sanchez
  I know.
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  For when it comes to real relationships that you're wanting to build, one is transparency.
5. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  Like, the number one killer is the assumed or unspoken expectations. Let's put it in, in everyday life. Most of the time we text, right? That's, that's how we communicate. When you read into somebody's text and the voice that you hear it in, and you expect it to be ugly or not nice, and it's a, "Fine. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, fine. All right. Good night." Like, it's one of those as simple as a, "Oh, okay, I guess they hate me." As soon as you get to that point in your life, or any time in that conversation, you are, are already setting yourself up for failure in communication in the long run.
7. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  You have to voice what those expectations are. So even if you were to, let's say, text that. If you can quickly text back, "Did you mean for that to be short?" Or, "Did you mean for that to sound upset?" And they go, "No, no, no, no, I was just in the middle of X, Y, and Z," or, "Well, I just didn't like that you said this." Oh, okay, and let's address it.
9. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  It's, this goes back to this fear of wanting to say the, the hard thing. Instead, just complaining about it and then later calling them a narcissist.
11. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah, [laughs] exactly.
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  [laughs]
13. CSCodie Sanchez
  It doesn't work out well, but it's all over the internet.
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  Right.
15. CSCodie Sanchez
  So what's better, to say, "Did you mean, Jefferson, to say... to sound upset?" Or, "Did you mean, Jefferson, to be short?"
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
17. CSCodie Sanchez
  Or to say, "I took it as short"?
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  Mm-hmm.
19. CSCodie Sanchez
  Like, no, it should always be on them.
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  It, that. Did, did you mean for that?
21. CSCodie Sanchez
  For that.
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  I'm not saying you.
23. CSCodie Sanchez
  Yeah, so don't put their name in there.
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  Don't, don't personalize it.
25. CSCodie Sanchez
  Good one.
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  Detach it. Detach the personalization, so that way it's not feeling like it's a you.
27. CSCodie Sanchez
  And you don't wanna take it on yourself, because that sounds a little too, I don't know what to say. I, I feel like you are being short. That would not sound as smooth.
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  That wouldn't be dismissive.
29. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm.
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  That might be too much. There's nothing wrong with that. That, I mean, that's perfectly fine.
1:34:58 – 1:41:50
Final Thoughts and Reflections
1. CSCodie Sanchez
  be?
2. JFJefferson Fisher
  Have something to learn, not something to prove. Whenever you're in a conversation with a friend, with a spouse, significant other, anytime, at work, living room to boardroom, have something to learn, not something to prove.
3. CSCodie Sanchez
  Mm-hmm.
4. JFJefferson Fisher
  When you set out to prove them wrong, you will most likely get less in return. But when you set out to ask the question internally of, where is this coming from? What do I have to learn here? Your conversation's always gonna go a lot better, and you're gonna have a better communication and a better relationship, and that means a better life.
5. CSCodie Sanchez
  So good. I actually, uh, always watch out for the guys with the slow Southern draws, because the people who have done the best deals against me, who have just beat me up more than anything, have been smooth-talking Texans.
6. JFJefferson Fisher
  Uh-oh. You gotta watch out for those.
7. CSCodie Sanchez
  You gotta watch out.
8. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
9. CSCodie Sanchez
  I, I remember very-
10. JFJefferson Fisher
  They're up to no good
11. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... they're up to no good.
12. JFJefferson Fisher
  [laughs]
13. CSCodie Sanchez
  Well, they're also, they always, uh, one of my favorite guys in the world, he's incredible deal maker, I won't say his name 'cause he'll get embarrassed, but he's got a real slow Southern drawl, and he'll always say, "Well, you know, for a kid from," I won't say, "I'm just a, I'm just a guy from Texas, and I don't really understand that. Could you explain it to me?"
14. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
15. CSCodie Sanchez
  And then I'll explain it to him, and then he'll proceed to just shred me-
16. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah, that's how he-
17. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... on the deal
18. JFJefferson Fisher
  ... that's how you know, that's how you know he knows.
19. CSCodie Sanchez
  That's how you... That's the giveaway.
20. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah. Th- that's the dead giveaway that he already understands it.
21. CSCodie Sanchez
  Oh.
22. JFJefferson Fisher
  He's already got it.
23. CSCodie Sanchez
  I'm just kinda slow. I-
24. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah
25. CSCodie Sanchez
  ... can you explain that to me again?
26. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yep.
27. CSCodie Sanchez
  I'm like, "Oh, fuck."
28. JFJefferson Fisher
  Yeah.
29. CSCodie Sanchez
  "Here he comes."
30. JFJefferson Fisher
  My favorite is to use is, "Maybe so." Like, somebody says something, no matter if it's an idea or it could be a, something mean or condescending or typically it's some kinda idea. I'll go, "Well, maybe so." Like, that right there, to me, is, uh, it's my favorite power move, uh-