Skip to content

By playing, you agree to uListen's Terms and Privacy Policy and YouTube's Terms of Service.

BigDeal by Codie SanchezBigDeal by Codie Sanchez

This Is Why You’re Still Broke (And How to Fix It) | Dave Ramsey

My new book Own Or Be Owned is out now! I wrote Own or Be Owned to answer one question: How do you make more money, less miserably?

Dave RamseyguestCodie Sanchezhost
Apr 2, 20251h 5mWatch on YouTube

Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.

Great conversations run long. Their best ideas don't have to.

uListen is free on iPhone, iPad, Android, Chrome, and Claude.

See how

Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 2:58

    From Success to Bankruptcy: A Personal Journey

    1. DR

      One year I made $250,000. The next year I made $6,000. We got sued 78 times.

    2. CS

      Going way back when you were 26, making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year, flash forward a year, bankrupt.

    3. DR

      I got my degree in real estate and I sold my first house three weeks after I turned 18 years old. But I was good at it. I hustled. Started from nothing. We ended up with about a little over a million dollar net worth, making a couple of hundred a year. But I'd borrowed too much money and the- I had a lot of short-term notes. The bank got sold to another bank and a guy in another city looked down and said, "There's a kid, 24 years old, owes us a million dollars. This is crazy." And they said, "Let's limit this relationship," which is banker talk for ruin his life. And that started a snowball [laughs] that took two and a half years to unfold, and we were bankrupt at the end of it with a brand new baby, a toddler, and a marriage hanging on by a thread.

    4. CS

      [upbeat music] Hello, I'm Codie Sanchez. Welcome back to the Big Deal podcast. Today you are in for a treat. If you are sitting alone in your business right now wondering, "How do I take it to the next step?" If you're struggling financially or unsure how to break through the level that you're currently at, there is literally one guy who for more than 30 years is helping people change their complete financial future. He's arguably the best in the world at it, and he does it in a way where he's gonna slap you in the face a little bit and then also make you feel better about it. Maybe even give you a little Nashville cookie in the end. I think you guys know who I'm talking about. I'm talking to the legend Dave Ramsey today, and we've broken down stuff that I've actually never heard him talk about before, like how to grow a business in a way that is repeatable every single time, and like what to do if you are sitting in the dark, head in the hands, unsure of what to do next. So without further ado, let's get to the man himself, Dave Ramsey. Okay, first of all, the book's amazing. Thank you for writing it.

    5. DR

      Well, thank you.

    6. CS

      And I, uh, I, I have all these notes, and I started writing notes for the podcast, and then what quickly happened is it became notes for my employees and myself about all the things I need to do in my business, which was kind of funny.

    7. DR

      Wow.

    8. CS

      I'm not-

    9. DR

      That's good. That means it worked.

    10. CS

      It did work. It worked too well. So now I have homework, uh, in tandem with this podcast, but what I really liked about it is I don't think a lot of people realize how big your business is. I mean, we're sitting on your campus, which is, I believe, $400 million, and you didn't use debt to buy it. Is that right?

    11. DR

      Right. We built it. Yeah. It, it was, uh, the first ... Yeah, it's probably worth about 600 million right now, but re- somewhere in that range. But yeah, we built it all and, uh, we fir- bought the first, uh, 42 acres of dirt, and then we added 22 more acres to that. So-

    12. CS

      It's-

    13. DR

      It's been fun

    14. CS

      ... it's incredible.

    15. DR

      A fun ride.

    16. CS

      And I think the part that's the most interesting to me is, you know, going way back to your original story when you were what, you know, 26, had a couple million dollars in real estate net worth, you know, making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year to flash forward a year, bankrupt, financial struggle-

    17. DR

      Right

    18. CS

      ... to $600 million office. I know you've, you've mentioned this before, obviously, but I think there's a lot of people that are more like the former you than the current you. What was that like back then, and what happened?

  2. 2:58 – 5:47

    The Emotional Toll of Financial Struggles

    1. DR

      Well, we were, um, uh ... I got my degree in real estate, and I sold my first house three weeks after I turned 18 years old, so I've been in real estate my whole life. Mom and dad were in the business. And so when I got out of college, I bounced through a couple jobs pretty quick and then started buying and selling houses. And, uh, I was doing Flip This House before there was cable TV or Chip and Joanna were born, you know? And so it was a long time ago. This was 1984, right? So, um, but I was good at it. I'm-

    2. CS

      Yeah

    3. DR

      ... I was good at making a deal and math is easy for me and that kind of stuff. So I would ... And I hu- hustled, and so I bought, started from nothing. We ended up with about $4 million worth, a little over a million dollar net worth, and, um, making a couple of hundred a year at, at 24 years old in 8- 1984. But I'd borrowed too much money and the- I had a lot of short-term notes. The bank got sold to another bank and a guy in another city looked down and said, "There's a kid, 24 years old, owes us a million dollars. This is crazy." And they said, "Let's limit this relationship," which is banker talk for ruin his life. They called them, um, and that started a snowball, [laughs] a bad snowball that took two and a half years to unfold, and we were bankrupt at the end of it with a brand new baby, a toddler, and a marriage hanging on by a thread. So like my old pastor used to say, "A man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an opinion."

    4. CS

      Mm.

    5. DR

      I've been there, done that, and I don't care what TikTok says. [laughs]

    6. CS

      [laughs]

    7. DR

      I've done it. [laughs]

    8. CS

      Well, I, it always makes me chuckle. I remember showing a video to one of my execs, and it was a man on a yacht talking about personal finance. The comments were like, "How could this guy? This is a, a scam," whatever, and it's Ray Dalio. And I just remember-

    9. DR

      Oh, wow

    10. CS

      ... sitting there thinking-

    11. DR

      Ray, man

    12. CS

      ... if, if they think that-

    13. DR

      Buckets

    14. CS

      ... he's not the real deal, then-

    15. DR

      Yeah

    16. CS

      ... who cares what they say about the rest of us on the internet-

    17. DR

      Yeah

    18. CS

      ... because you've been there. Um, it's a fascinating story because I was looking at the numbers. Of those that go into bankruptcy, those that ever become a millionaire, the number that I saw was less than 10%.

    19. DR

      Hm.

    20. CS

      So, like, once you hit bankruptcy, you have an incredibly low likelihood of ever hitting seven figures in net worth again.

    21. DR

      Mm.

    22. CS

      And so I think so much of what you talk about here is really cool because you're like, "I've been there." But for somebody who's in that position right now today and is struggling, you talk a lot about how it's not necessarily just tactics, although you give a lot of them, and I wanna talk about it, but is being broke largely emotional too?

    23. DR

      Um, it is, and in our case, uh, um, it was 'cause I ran out of gas.

    24. CS

      Mm.

    25. DR

      One year I made $250,000. The next year I made $6,000 'cause I spent the whole year trying to sell everything and do the right thing, in air quotes, and pay the banks-

    26. CS

      Wow

    27. DR

      ... what they were owed. And the weird thing that we don't talk about a lot was we took the debt from three million down to 328,000-

    28. CS

      Wow

    29. DR

      ... in two and a half years. We almost made it, but I ran out. I was 28 years old. I had a, you know,

  3. 5:47 – 9:08

    Lessons Learned: The Value of Experience

    1. DR

      again, little babies and a wife is scared to death. She thought she married Sir Galahad. Turns out it was Goober. And, you know, I, I, I just ran out of emotional gas fighting, and the, we got sued 78 times, um, and all of them were right 'cause I owed them money and I didn't pay them. And, and, you know, so we're fighting the lawsuits, the interrogatories, the, the, um, you know, their, their capturing any asset they can capture, rightfully so, 'cause we owed them money and didn't pay them. But there weren't any assets left. We'd sold everything. And, um, but they were coming to take the furniture out of our house, and I was, um, I was out of gas. I didn't know how, I didn't know how to fight it anymore, and I, I just, uh, I, but I almost made it. You know? The bankers we talked to later, I went back and paid them all back. It took 10 years, but the bankers that we talked to later all said, "We thought you'd file, you know, a year and a half before you did, two years before you did." Most people would have, but-

    2. CS

      Most people do

    3. DR

      ... but, um, but, you know, it was, uh, it was the worst thing that ever happened to me and the best thing that ever happened to me because it's not how I wanted anyone else to have to learn something, but the lesson is thorough. [laughs]

    4. CS

      Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that other people can learn through that experience?

    5. DR

      Sure

    6. CS

      Or do some people just have to go through it?

    7. DR

      Yeah, you, you can, you, you don't have to go through, uh, drug addiction to know it's bad. Uh, you don't have to go through, say, you know, cocaine kills people. I know that, and I've never done cocaine, so I don't have to go there. Um, but, um, and you don't have to go deeply in debt and lose everything to figure out that debt will choke you to death.

    8. CS

      Mm.

    9. DR

      Uh, you know, basic common sense observation ought to help most folks get there, but it doesn't. Um, but we did a full CSI on it because we were not only broke, we were broken.

    10. CS

      Mm.

    11. DR

      Uh, so any illusions I had to my [laughs] academic prowess or intelligence or whatever I thought I was, obviously I wasn't. And, um, so I got the opportunity to start from emotional and spiritual ground zero as well as financial. And when you look at that, you go, "Okay, what really happened here?"

    12. CS

      Mm.

    13. DR

      "Who's really at fault?" And you can choose victimhood. You can go, "Oh, you know, I just spilled hot coffee on myself. Turns out McDonald's serves hot coffee. I think I'll sue them." You know, or you can say, um, "Uh, I'm a klutz, and I just spilled some hot coffee, and, um, and I should have expected it to be hot since I just bought coffee." And so in my case, I signed up for this debt, and, um, it was short-term notes. Well, and then they chose to call them in a short term. Well, who's the idiot? The one that signed it's the idiot. So you gotta learn from that and go, "Okay, what the Bible says the borrower is slave to the lender is real."

    14. CS

      Mm.

    15. DR

      And I got to experience the shackles.

    16. CS

      Yeah. You know, you talk a lot about the Bible and money. Is, is money biblical? Is your application of how you think about money biblical?

    17. DR

      Well, there are, uh, it is for me. Um, the, um, I was a baby Christian. I just met God when all this stuff happened.

    18. CS

      Yeah.

    19. DR

      And, um, so I had to make a conscious choice of, okay, the information I'm reading in scripture, which is all, it's not, uh, uh, spiritual necessarily in nature in the sense that, um, that it has to do with getting into heaven or it has to do with your relationship with God or something, but it's more instructional.

    20. CS

      Mm.

    21. DR

      Like Proverbs is known, for instance, as the book of wisdom, and whether you're a person of faith or not,

  4. 9:08 – 12:01

    Money: A Tool, Not a Moral Compass

    1. DR

      you could get something from Proverbs, just like you could get something from any ancient piece. You could read Socrates or, uh, Aristotle, and you can get something from that even, uh, e- even if we're not Greek, you know?

    2. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DR

      And so, um, the, you know, the, the, most of the biblical stuff is kind of, uh, if you, you, if you sat on your grandpa's knee in another generation, they would be, we would call it common sense, and it's borrower is slave to the lender, or don't build a tower without first counting the cost.

    4. CS

      Mm.

    5. DR

      Lest you get halfway up and you're unable to finish it, and all who see you begin to mock you. In other words, have a plan-

    6. CS

      Mm-hmm

    7. DR

      ... a budget. I mean, we run a $300 million company. Guess what? Every department, every profit center has a budget. We have a plan. We didn't build this building without first having a blueprint. Um, and so that's kinda common sense. Uh, and there is, it's not really mystical at all. It's not really, uh, some kinda spiritual voodoo stuff, but, but, um, it's just God's love letter to me going, "Hey, son, here's some wisdom."

    8. CS

      Mm.

    9. DR

      "And if you live this way, you'll have a better life."

    10. CS

      Yeah. Common sense, not common practice. Definitely.

    11. DR

      Amen. Yeah.

    12. CS

      For sure.

    13. DR

      Common sense is rare.

    14. CS

      Yeah.

    15. DR

      Nothing's more uncommon, Ben Franklin said. Yeah.

    16. CS

      Yeah. It, it's true, but, you know, it's interesting. I, I always wondered, you know how, like, you go and you speak to a group of people-

    17. DR

      Mm-hmm

    18. CS

      ... and if you say like, uh, "Blank is the root of all evil"-

    19. DR

      Mm-hmm

    20. CS

      ... everybody will fill in money.

    21. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. CS

      But you've mentioned in, in this book and others that it's actually, in the Bible they say it, depending on the, the way you translate it, that love or desire for money is the root of all evil.

    23. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. CS

      So do you think that it is bad or evil to be rich?

    25. DR

      No, absolutely not. No, and I did an entire book on it, you know, for the Christian community. Uh, as a matter of fact, I'm positive it's not bad or evil to be rich. Um, but it's also not good or positive. Not, you know, you're not better either.

    26. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. DR

      Um, money is amoral. It doesn't have morals.

    28. CS

      Mm.

    29. DR

      Uh, it reflects the morals of those it touches. And so if someone is greedy and they get money, then the rich are greedy.

    30. CS

      Mm.

  5. 12:01 – 15:02

    The Misconception of Wealth and Evil

    1. DR

      that's re- that's shortsighted and not fulfilling.

    2. CS

      Mm.

    3. DR

      No one's 78 years old on their deathbed, 88 years old on their deathbed and says, "Gosh, I wish I'd have done another IPO." They go, "Where's my grandbabies?"

    4. CS

      Yeah. So why do you think we are programmed to think that money is bad? So many of us, I think, are programmed that way. Where did that come from?

    5. DR

      Um, it's come from, uh, some toxic teaching in the spiritual world. Uh, sometimes-

    6. CS

      Mm-hmm

    7. DR

      ... sometimes some churches have, uh, twisted some of these scriptures, and usually they do it in a demographic area where they're ministering to poor people, and then-

    8. CS

      Yeah

    9. DR

      ... uh, so they, they, you know, run the rich down. Um, I was having dinner with some folks in Australia, uh, a couple years ago, Australians, and we were talking about this, and they said, um, the Australians have quoted Aristotle, they call it tall poppy syndrome.

    10. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. DR

      As soon as someone's, as soon as one poppy sticks its head up above the others, it must be cut. And so we wanna tear down those that are ahead of us. That's just jealousy and envy, which the Catholics would call that one of the seven deadly sins.

    12. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. DR

      And so, um, you know, the, the, it comes from, uh, you know, negative human nature i- in that we just, we don't want other people to win. But again, oddly enough, those are usually poor people, and not, uh, poor in spirit, uh, not, not necessarily poor in wallet, but they're usually people who have not attained something. Most successful people, they wanna help others.

    14. CS

      Yep.

    15. DR

      Uh, they reach out and you go, "You know, you're, you know, you're, uh, just starting in a business that I'm already in. I'll show you how, or, uh, I'll spend time with you." And I, and you can't mentor everybody that has to be mentored. I don't mean that.

    16. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. DR

      But I have to, you know, say, "No, young man, I can't, I'm running a business here, I can't do that full-time." But, uh, but, but I'll help anybody I can, um, across the podcast world or the publishing world, the speaking world, I have. Uh, talk radio back in the day, all those guys are f- uh, old guys are friends of mine, and so we've been friendly competitors.

    18. CS

      Yeah.

    19. DR

      Uh, and most, but again, most successful people do lift people up. It's usually people that aren't successful that, uh, wanna pull people down.

    20. CS

      Do you think it's too crazy to think that part of the reason why we think money is evil because when you don't have money, you're actually a lot easier to control? Like, my belief is also if, if we keep having, like, centralization of power throughout all societies, right?

    21. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. CS

      Until eventually it reverts to the mean. But then if you, if you have a populace that has a bunch of money, which is really just optionality, freedom-

    23. DR

      Mm-hmm

    24. CS

      ... pushback-

    25. DR

      Mm-hmm

    26. CS

      ... then they're harder to control. And so seems like over time, they kinda want the few to have it, 'cause then you can control the few easier-

    27. DR

      Mm-hmm

    28. CS

      ... because they have a lot to lose, but the many, they don't want them to have the pushback.

    29. DR

      Well-

    30. CS

      Does that seem too conspiracy theorist?

  6. 15:02 – 18:04

    Leadership and Organizational Growth

    1. CS

      Yeah, doesn't work out.

    2. DR

      Uh, you know, and just all you gotta do is visit operating communist countries today, and I have, and you have too probably, and it's, you know, [laughs] it's not, it's not working out. It's not, it's not working. And the weird thing, you know, in America today, we're the opposite of that. We're very hard to control-

    3. CS

      Yeah

    4. DR

      ... because of ease of access into almost any industry. And, um, you know, we're talking about business and starting a business, running a business. It's the easiest it's ever been in America right now to start and run something because you could instantaneously turn on these things and be anywhere, anytime, accessible, um, on, on video, on audio. Um, you know, you can set your pro- you can set up a digital store in 20 minutes now.

    5. CS

      Yep.

    6. DR

      And, um, all of a sudden you're in business. And in the old days, you used to have to, you know, haul stuff in in a covered wagon, put some boards up, and, you know, build a country store, and, uh, it was a lot of process and a lot of risk. And we can launch stuff and iterate it so fast right now. Uh, those of us that are already here and those that wanna be here, meaning in business, uh, it's, it's a wonderful time for the li- the little man can't get ahead? Oh, more than at any time in history right now, the little man can get ahead.

    7. CS

      I agree. And, and also, you know, one of the reasons I really like the book is there are a couple things in there that I think are true overall, which is you had a line that was, "Organizations are never limited by their opportunity. They're limited by their leader."

    8. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CS

      Um, which I have found to be incredibly true in any business that I've ever run. What do you mean by that, and how does making yourself better make you more money in business?

    10. DR

      Well, John Maxwell, my friend, does a, has written a bazillion books on leadership, and he and I speak often together, and he says in his bestselling book, "The 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership," the third lid, uh, or the third law of leadership is the law of the lid, meaning I'm the lid on my organization. When I started this, I was 30 years old, um, two and a half years out of bankruptcy, healing psychologic- I had PTSD, and I didn't even know what it was. Um, healing spiritually, healing in my marriage and my relationships, healing in my finances from that tsunami that took me out in my late 20s. Um, that's the guy that started this place. He could not have run this place today. He didn't have the skills.

    11. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. DR

      He w- he was, you know, just a beat-up, wounded, you know, uh, passionate dude, um, that wouldn't be denied, and that's all, that's the only thing I had, was I just wouldn't quit.

    13. CS

      Yeah.

    14. DR

      Um, but, but over the years, I've read and learned and grew and healed and all those things, and, you know, I'm a much better husband than I was when Sharon married me 43 years ago. Just ask her. I'm a much better, uh, dad today. My kids see me with my grandkids, and they're like, "Who are you?"

    15. CS

      [laughs]

    16. DR

      You know, and it's like, um, but it's, it, you know, it's, uh, w- we, you know, we get better, and if you don't get better, don't expect your organization to grow 'cause you're the problem with your organization. I'm the problem

  7. 18:04 – 21:03

    Building a Team vs. Hiring Employees

    1. DR

      with my organization. That's the bad news. The good news is I'm the solution.

    2. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DR

      And so I can read a book, listen to a podcast, go to an event, uh, put some more inputs in, remove some of the lies that I believed about life and about business, put in the real stuff from the people that have really done it, not just ones who have a theory, and then I'm a better, all of a sudden, I'm a better leader, and now my organization can grow a little more. And so, you know, I dropped in the other day. I've got, you know, we've got 450 some odd folks just on our digital team And, uh, you know, software engineers, platform engineers, and, you know, we're building, constantly iterating and writing and launching, you know, the EveryDollar app and all the other things we do around here that are digital, which is almost everything in the building. And, um-

    4. CS

      And the three buildings

    5. DR

      ... and I'm not of the dig- I'm not a digital generation. I'm a Boomer.

    6. CS

      [laughs]

    7. DR

      So I drop in with all these brilliant kids that work for me-

    8. CS

      Mm-hmm

    9. DR

      ... and I'm sitting in a room, and I, I'm, they might as well have been speaking German. I have no idea what they're saying. And I had to raise my hand after a minute. I went, "Hey, guys, I can't add value to this room right now 'cause I don't even know what you guys are saying. [laughs] Would y'all tell me what you just talked about for the last 10 minutes in English so I can understand without dropping all the acronyms?" And once they explained to me, I, I understood the concepts, but they were just using a completely different vernacular. And unless I get better, and I'm not the only bottleneck in the place, but unless the leadership team here does that and understands the business that we're in, is, uh, working with and for people that have grown up with a magic wand in their hand, which I didn't. I had a rotary dial phone on the wall when I was a kid, uh, so I'm old, but that, I, I got to be relevant or I can't run the business.

    10. CS

      Yeah. It's so true. Well, and, you know, one of the other things I loved that you talk about is that, speaking of your employees, that you never want an employee again, that you've had them before, you never want an employee again, but you have 1,100 team members here. What's the difference between the two, and how do you decide if somebody's an employee or a team member?

    11. DR

      Well, I think we've all had, if you've ever hired someone, or if you've ever worked anywhere for that matter, you've observed people that were what I call employees. They come late, leave early, steal while they're there, and check Facebook all day. And so, um, not much work, right? And so no productivity, don't care. They're there for what they can take rather than what they can add. And so, um, around our organization, we're a team. We add value. Everybody here adds value, and we're, um... And if you don't add value, what are you doing here?

    12. CS

      Yeah.

    13. DR

      I'm not paying you. I need to get an ROI on this, and it's not 'cause I'm a jerk. It's just 'cause if I don't get an ROI on you, I can't pay the other guy.

    14. CS

      Yep.

    15. DR

      So, uh, we don't wanna make enough revenue, we can't pay payroll. Hello. So, um, you know, we want team members. We want people who, uh, treat the place like they own it. And when we have an argument, and we have a lot of arguments around here every day, they're wonderful arguments, uh, we have an argument about which call to play, which play to call to win the Super Bowl, which play to call to get the ball in

  8. 21:03 – 23:53

    The Importance of Company Culture

    1. DR

      the end zone. We're not arguing about, you know, some irrelevant thing or some political internal thing like, hey, trying to... You know, we're not sitting around talking about somebody. You know, we're not s- c- uh, we're just getting stuff done.

    2. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DR

      It's very utilitarian.

    4. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. DR

      And so if you don't wanna get stuff done, you don't fit in at Ramsey. I mean, we get stuff done. And you're working with people that are smart, the smartest people you've ever worked with in your life, but they care deeply. That's the difference.

    6. CS

      Mm.

    7. DR

      You can hire smart people that don't give a crap, and they're useless.

    8. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. DR

      Uh, they're there for, again, for how, who they can impress with their brilliance rather than let's get something done 'cause the people outside these walls is why this place exists, not for the people inside these walls.

    10. CS

      Yeah.

    11. DR

      We gotta love our customer by serving them and bringing them something that helps them change their life, and if you're not doing that here, you're, you're really not a part of this team. And so we, we don't need employees. [laughs] If somebody's mailing it in, you know, wants a J-O-B, and, you know, "I've got these many degrees." I had one guy more degrees than a thermometer. He's like, "Tell me all he sh-

    12. CS

      [laughs]

    13. DR

      ... how he was worth." And I said, "Dude, you know, um, you know, here, uh, this is a small business. Your raise is effective when you are. It's not when you get another degree. Don't... I couldn't care less about your certification except the, uh, except it gives you the ability to get something done, and that's all it's good for. And so I don't care about your experience. I don't care what happened at the other place you used to work, except to the extent it helps you get something done here for the good of our customers, and that's who we serve. And if you can't get on board with that, get your butt out of here. Don't let the door hit you in the butt."

    14. CS

      Yeah, I loved when you said that, uh, profit is the reward for, uh, serving the customers that you have.

    15. DR

      Yeah.

    16. CS

      And man, it's, it's so true. So many people, I think, don't charge their worth, don't get comfortable with profits, don't wanna talk about how much revenue they make, but it's so true. If you're not making any money, it's 'cause you're not really helping anybody. The bigger problems you solve, the more money you make.

    17. DR

      Exactly, and the more, and the more scale you do it. Um, so I mean, I, if I print one little book for $2.50 and I sell it for $10, uh, I help one person, and nobody's mad about that.

    18. CS

      Yep.

    19. DR

      But if I sell, you know, 10 or 15 million of those and I get, you know, 10 or $15 million of that profit, um, then somebody gets upset, but I helped 10 or 15 million people. So I mean, that's how this works, and my friend Rabbi Lapin says that, uh, i- if you help people, they will give you certificates of appreciation with presidents' faces on them.

    20. CS

      Such a good line.

    21. DR

      Yeah, it is a great line. I wish it was mine, but it's a good line.

    22. CS

      You got so many. You need to give a few others out.

    23. DR

      [laughs]

    24. CS

      Like, you know, the one-liners from here, I went through your, your X or Twitter or whatever they call it today, and I was like, there's so many, I wanna just quote him this whole time. Um, one thing that I do want to double tap on for you is you have some really specific ways you figure out if somebody is going to be a culture fit or not for you guys, and I think we've all been in a job or a career where we're like, we hang out with that person who's gossiping all the time.

    25. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    26. CS

      And

  9. 23:53 – 26:58

    Gossip and Its Impact on Workplace Dynamics

    1. CS

      it's kind of fun in the moment. It's like a little adrenaline hit, and then afterwards you feel worse about yourself.

    2. DR

      It's like junk food.

    3. CS

      Yeah, it's like, exactly. Gossip is like junk food. So you don't let gossip happen here. How do you, one, stop that in your company, and two, for somebody who doesn't run the company but is in a company, what's the right way to kinda say, "I don't wanna engage in this behavior"? I think people are scared of doing that.

    4. DR

      Yeah. In h- in this place, you're one of the owners-

    5. CS

      Mm

    6. DR

      ... and it's one of the things you value. You're not technically an owner, but you're an emotional owner.

    7. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DR

      It, it, it's one of the things you value working here, and so just like you wouldn't allow, um, something more horrible like sexual harassment to occur, you're, you're not gonna look the other way. You're gonna say, "Oh, we don't do that here." And, you know, gossip is much less horrendous than that, but, um, we don't do that here. And we, and if you wanna be a we, we're French, we we. If you wanna be a Fr- if you wanna be we, you can't do that here 'cause that's not who we are. And the team will protect the place 'cause it's one of the things that they value-

    9. CS

      Mm

    10. DR

      ... when we survey them, because they've never really worked in a place that doesn't do gossip. And it's not like we have to fire a bunch of people. We don't. Occasionally we do, 'cause sometimes people just won't get it, but that's okay. Um, that means they need to be somewhere where they allow that. That, you know, it's just one of the things we don't do here.

    11. CS

      How do you start that, though?

    12. DR

      So hand, hand, hand your negatives up and your positives down.

    13. CS

      Mm.

    14. DR

      And you're gonna have negatives. There's 1,100 opportunities in this building to be pissed off at somebody. So, you know, when something happens, not if something happens, when you're frustrated with so and so, when you're frustrated with a situation, your project is not getting attention, or you can't get the bandwidth on social media on this thing you're trying to get launched, or whatever it is in Ramsey that's frustrating you, and it's like a... all day long something frustrating you 'cause we're trying to get stuff done and there's friction. And so just count on it. Not if you have something that frustrates you, when. You have one place to air that, and it's not at the water cooler.

    15. CS

      Mm.

    16. DR

      It's in your leader's office or his leader's or her leader's office or s- another leader somewhere in the org- anywhere that's up is okay. You can go talk to somebody in a whole different area and go, "Look, I just need a place to vent. Tell me about this." And, and then they can help you. They can help you move through the issue one way or the other. But when you're talking to people that can't do something about the issue, that by definition here is gossip.

    17. CS

      Mm.

    18. DR

      And usually it's talking about somebody-

    19. CS

      Mm-hmm

    20. DR

      ... is the problem. And so... And we all know, and yet e- even at 64 years old, I have trouble remembering that if that person is sitting there gossiping in front of me, then they're... next time when I'm not there, they're talking about me.

    21. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. DR

      We all know that, but we act like we're the exception. Like, "Well, they would never do that." Yeah, so yes, they do. 100% they do. A- and as organizations move at the speed of trust, and when you-

    23. CS

      Mm

    24. DR

      ... have a building full of that toxic garbage, you cannot move. It grinds the smartest people to a halt because now they spend all their time covering their butts, sending out CYA emails instead of productive questions. And, and so we'll sit down with you and go, "Look, you had a negative. You talked about it here.

  10. 26:58 – 32:52

    Hiring Practices: Trusting Your Instincts

    1. DR

      Two or three people talked to us, told us what was happening. And if they brought it to leadership that you were doing this, and you can't do that here."

    2. CS

      Mm.

    3. DR

      "And, uh, if you do it again, then, you know, we're gonna help you, uh, find another place to work because we love you and we love this place and we don't do that here."

    4. CS

      Yeah.

    5. DR

      And, um, just like if they were doing some other behavior-

    6. CS

      Mm-hmm

    7. DR

      ... that you don't want, we're just not going... If you tolerate it, you get what you tolerate. And so, uh, th- in the early days, I had to really... You know, we had to kinda-

    8. CS

      Mm

    9. DR

      ... yeah. But once it became like a thing internally, one of our core values, now it self-polices like 99%.

    10. CS

      Yeah.

    11. DR

      I bet, I bet once a year, twice a year out of 1,100 people, leadership actually has to have a discussion with someone who goes, "You can't do that."

    12. CS

      Mm.

    13. DR

      And, and maybe we fire one person a year. You know, you would think out of 1,000 freaking people. But no, they, uh, number one, we tell people that coming in, then they get here, and after 90 days, we review with them on their first 90 days, and they go, "I couldn't believe the audio actually matched the video. You really don't do this." And we're like, "No, we really don't do this, and we really don't borrow money, and we really live on a budget, and we really live on less than we make, and we really don't have credit cards. We really do the stuff we teach. We're not freaking hypocrites. And if you wanna be a we, this is what we do." And so, you know, it, it's, it's an interesting thing culturally to, to observe that when people actually believe it's gonna happen, they believe there's consequences and accountability, they, they will self-enforce.

    14. CS

      Yeah. It's so good. Can you tell the story about th- the first time that you had to fire somebody sort of for this in the company?

    15. DR

      [laughs]

    16. CS

      And the... It's such a good story.

    17. DR

      [laughs]

    18. CS

      And the salesperson.

    19. DR

      Yeah, man, one of my top salespeople. Oh, she was incredible. She was selling so m- and we were tiny. There was only just a handful of us, maybe less than 50 of us. And but there was a cloud. You ever walk into a place and you, it, it just, it, it, in, in your, in your spirit, you sense there's something wrong? It's like, almost like something runs down your shoulder. You're like, "Ugh." It, it was just like this cloud. We were doing good. The numbers were good. The, the show was growing. The, the, you know, the book sales were gr- everything seemed to be moving, but it was just like this uh, and I couldn't figure it out. So we had a little, we had a little staff meeting. We have a staff meeting every Monday morning still. And, um, you know, I guess there, I guess there are now probably 30 people or something like that. And I had an appointment right after, and I ran out to my car, and when I got out to the car, I forgot my stupid keys. I came back in to get my car keys, and when I walked back in, this person was having the second meeting. And we've all experienced the second meeting where someone stands up and says what everybody thought, what they thought everybody was thinking when the, when the leader was saying otherwise. So anyway, she was just trashing me, how dumb I was, and it's one of the companies stayed open under my leadership, and da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And her back was to me, and she didn't hear me come in through the door 'cause it was one of those silent closed door things. And the other people are looking at me, and they're like, "Mm, mm."

    20. CS

      [laughs]

    21. DR

      You know, and she, she... [laughs] And I, after, I mean, I just stood there and listened to her for about a minute and a half, two minutes, which is an eternity to hear somebody trash you in person that you're paying.

    22. CS

      [laughs]

    23. DR

      You know, it's just like, "Yeah."

    24. CS

      [laughs]

    25. DR

      And so, um, finally, I guess something happened, and the hair stood up on the back of her neck. She turned around and looked at me. She goes, "Oh," blank, right?

    26. CS

      [laughs]

    27. DR

      And I'm like, "Yeah, that's probably, that's probably accurate." [laughs]

    28. CS

      [laughs]

    29. DR

      And so, um, she goes, "Well, well, well," and she starts trying to... And I'm like, "Hey, um, listen, both of us are not dumb. You're dumb if you stay here and work for a guy as bad as the guy you just described, and I'd be dumb if I kept somebody and paid them money that feels that way about me. That'd be dumb, too. So we're, we're pretty much done. Come on in here, and I'll sit down with you. I'll cancel my other appointment, and we'll, we'll, uh, figure out your exit paperwork." And she's like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no." The worst part was when I got home and I told Sharon She's like, "I told you not to hire him."

    30. CS

      [laughs] I get that from kids too.

  11. 32:52 – 35:44

    Innovative Hiring Practices

    1. CS

      Yeah.

    2. DR

      So much.

    3. CS

      But you do have really good ways to go about it. I thought the spousal interview was the most in- I've never heard of that before. I thought it was really smart. Um, and also I think if somebody else can put up with them for a long period of time-

    4. DR

      Mm-hmm

    5. CS

      ... it's also a great sign.

    6. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CS

      I'm like, this other person who seems reasonable can, thinks you're good enough to stay with for a decade plus?

    8. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CS

      Okay, I like that.

    10. DR

      Some of our best team members, when we sit down at the final interview with the sp- the four of us go out to dinner, you're s- more impressed with their spouse than you are them.

    11. CS

      Yeah.

    12. DR

      And you go, "Well, if you can pull that off-

    13. CS

      Right

    14. DR

      ... then, then you're probably gonna make our team." [laughs]

    15. CS

      Yeah.

    16. DR

      If you can attract her, you can attract him, then, you know, yeah, that's good.

    17. CS

      And keep them.

    18. DR

      Yeah.

    19. CS

      I really liked that. Um, I also liked how you think about a screening process that is sort of the same every single time. What else do you think makes it possible to hire a, A players every time or all the time or often? How do you screen people to find the best people?

    20. DR

      We just remember the pain of when we didn't.

    21. CS

      Yeah.

    22. DR

      Every time I, every time I let crazy in the door, I, 'cause crazy will screw up a building, man. Oh my God. They just... [laughs] There's not enough drugs on the planet to handle some of these people, man. So it's just like-

    23. CS

      That's so true.

    24. DR

      Oh, oh.

    25. CS

      And every business owner feels that way, don't they?

    26. DR

      Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But every time I find the door they used, we put a lock on that door, so.

    27. CS

      [laughs]

    28. DR

      Yeah, all I, and all I gotta do is go, "The last time I ignored this, it just about killed me. The last time I put loyalty ahead of integrity, it just about killed me."

    29. CS

      Mm.

    30. DR

      "The last time I thought, well, I knew this guy back, you know, 20 years ago. Well, yeah, but ugh." Every time I ignore these things that are tickling at the back of my spirit and my, you know, in my brain, then I, it kills me. So yeah, we, a- and so we try to say, "Okay, we're gonna do different things, checks and balances, to do that, and we're gonna measure them, and we want more than one person to look at them, and we're gonna take time."

  12. 35:44 – 39:15

    The Importance of Integrity in Leadership

    1. CS

      You know what's interesting? I'm curious, have you ever fired somebody that you regretted firing? Or do you usually wait too long to fire?

    2. DR

      Um, I have, I promised myself when we opened that because I ha- I, in my early, in my 20s, I struggled with a temper, with anger, and it's been part of my spiritual walk to no longer struggle with that, and I don't struggle with it today. But I promised myself I would never fire someone while I was angry, and I haven't. I've managed to pull that off. I did, um, wait two days to calm down before I fired a person that, um, had, uh, uh, you know, a major thing they had done, and I was definitely angry.

    3. CS

      Mm.

    4. DR

      Um, but I just said, "I'm not even gonna look at them. I'm not gonna deal with it. I'm not gonna be in the same room with them until I get my head straight."

    5. CS

      Yeah.

    6. DR

      And then I walk in, and then I go, then I can be kind, um, but also, you know-

    7. CS

      Firm

    8. DR

      ... do what, do what's necessary 'cause this person cannot be a part of our organization and do those kinds of things. It's not optional. And so, um, but yeah. I mean, you get that. But, you know, again, with the four or five times you could, I could say that has happened-

    9. CS

      Yeah

    10. DR

      ... then I can look back and go, "Every one of those are because I kept them too long."

    11. CS

      Yeah.

    12. DR

      'Cause I ignored the signs and I'm al- again, my loyalty to the person. "Well, they've been here 10 years. I owe them."

    13. CS

      Yeah.

    14. DR

      "They poured their life out for this place. I, I'm gonna... So I'm gonna give them one m- " And, uh, and, and you end up becoming an enabler i- if, um, if you're not really careful as a leader, and I struggle with that. But, um, but I, I, it's never gone on so long that it destroyed the company or something like that, but man, that's the pain point for me. You can feel it just talk- me talking about it.

    15. CS

      Yeah. Well, it's, it's interesting 'cause I found every owner I've ever talked to has the same thing, which is we usually wait too long-

    16. DR

      Yep

    17. CS

      ... even when we know it's not right.

    18. DR

      Yep.

    19. CS

      And I, I ask the question all the time 'cause I need to remind myself. I always keep people too long, too, and, and I think it's a little bit of, like, a God complex, too. I'm like, "No, I could fix them. I could help them."

    20. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CS

      "I don't wanna be mean." And I have to remind myself that it's actually doing them a huge disservice-

    22. DR

      Oh

    23. CS

      ... because they could be amazing somewhere else.

    24. DR

      Exactly.

    25. CS

      It's just not a good fit for me.

    26. DR

      Exactly.

    27. CS

      And so you've been at this longer-

    28. DR

      You're right

    29. CS

      ... so it's nice to hear you say the same.

    30. DR

      It's, it's exactly the same thing. You're, you're exactly on it. A- and it is a bit of a God complex, but it's also just a, a kindness thing. And, you know, um, I'm a Southern guy, and so, like, we're specialists at passive-aggressive.

  13. 39:15 – 50:01

    Understanding Entrepreneurial Stages

    1. DR

      works.

    2. CS

      Yeah. You know, I, I wanna actually talk a little bit about entrepreneurs. I think it's a super lonely journey. This book is for builders in particular and owners, and one of my favorite parts is your categorization of where somebody is at in business.

    3. DR

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    4. CS

      'Cause I think all of us have felt in business n- numerous times, "Hey, um, my business is struggling. I'm not making any money."

    5. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. CS

      "Hey, we're making a ton of money, but it's moving so fast I don't know what to do next."

    7. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    8. CS

      And you kinda categorize entrepreneurs into a few different types, five levels: treadmill operator, pathfinder, trailblazer, peak performer, legacy builder. What-

    9. DR

      The five stages, yeah

    10. CS

      ... the five stages. What are these and why do they matter as an entrepreneur?

    11. DR

      Well, most of us that are entrepreneurs, um, the, uh, the, I, I, oddly enough, the, um, you're, you're... If you have dyslexia, you, uh, are more likely to be an entrepreneur than anything else.

    12. CS

      Huh.

    13. DR

      The, um, um, if you have ADHD or, um, ADD, um, uh, confirmed or unconfirmed, "Dave talks too much, he's hyper," was on my report card every single year. Um, unconfirmed, but probably, you know. And so, um, medically unconfirmed. But the, uh, uh, you know, so you're, you're probably in those categories because what happens to those of us that have those different things i- is, um, we, we live our life doing workarounds.

    14. CS

      Hmm.

    15. DR

      And that is the ultimate definition of an entrepreneur. [laughs] You're, you're, you're finding a problem and solving it. You're doing a workaround for somebody that doesn't even think that way, doesn't even know they have a problem, and you're going and solving it for them, and that turns into a product or service that becomes very profitable and very much of a blessing to the customer, um, as we talked about earlier. So, uh, we find a high degree of those folks and, and we start as a treadmill operator. We start with, "I'm gonna go get this thing done." And you get up on treadmill and you start running and running and running and running and running and running and running, and you get home at night and you're exhausted, and you go, "What'd you do today, honey?" "I have no idea, but I worked my butt off." And, uh, but some stuff moved around, I know that. And, uh, it's very chaotic and, and it's very dependent on you, and that's the problem. It's not sustainable. You don't yet own a business at the treadmill stage. You own a, you own your job.

    16. CS

      Yeah.

    17. DR

      Because if you don't show up, you don't make any money.

    18. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. DR

      You don't show up, the customer doesn't get anything 'cause nothing's produced 'cause you're the producer and, uh, you're the, uh, the producer of revenue and the producer of the goods and services. And so that's how it started here. That's where it starts with most people. And then you begin to go, "Okay, this isn't gonna work. I'm gonna die of burnout. Um, uh, I may, I may die happy 'cause I don't work for somebody else, but I'm gonna die of burnout. I gotta get some other people helping me," and that's called delegation. And you begin this dreaded hiring process we were just talking about and you learn, "Oh, this is hard." Hiring and firing is hard, but it's harder... It's not as hard as, uh, working by myself-

    20. CS

      Mm-hmm

    21. DR

      ... and trying to do everything myself. So, um, you know, we start adding folks and doing time management and working on the right things, working smart, not hard. Um, get a little bit of work-life balance. All of a sudden you can actually be home before 10:00 at night. Uh, you can actually not have to panic about payroll every Friday because you actually get some cash reserves. We start putting some things like that. Now we're starting to run a business and that moves us into that pathfinder stage. A- and, um, uh, from there you start doing some planning and you actually think past Friday and I, you know, I... That's, that's the stage I learned the phrase strategic thought. I was very t- I'm totally tactical. I don't, I mean, I get it done, get done right now, and we'll deal with it later. But no, I... And so I was just constantly running through the labyrinth trying to figure out how the, where the end of the bushes were, and some guy standing up above goes, "If you turn left, you get out of there." You know? And so that's strategic thought. You gotta get above the problem and look, give it the 30,000-foot view. And so I always laugh and say I got to the point I finally started hiring people that had MBAs. I don't have an MBA. And, um, but I've got great admiration for that level of business education, and 100% of the MBAs I've ever hired, I guess it's indoctrinated into every program, are wonderful strategic thinkers.

    22. CS

      Mm.

    23. DR

      They are taught to get above the problem. Uh, and I always laugh and go, "Okay, the MBAs taught me how to get above the problem. I taught them how to work."

    24. CS

      [laughs]

    25. DR

      'Cause I, when in doubt, I work my butt off, you know? So, you know, that, that's the, the trailblazer stage. Uh, a- and, and then that stuff starts to work, and you start to do something you mentioned earlier, and you go, "I'm gonna put some systems and processes in place so humans don't have to do everything by paper."

    26. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. DR

      "We don't have to kill so many trees, and this thing is analog as it can be. This thing, this ought to, this P&L ought to automatically spit out. It shouldn't be like sharpen a pencil. Uh, we ought to start putting these systems." And when you do that, add it with the strategic thought, and you get the second layer of leadership. Your first layer of leadership is just you got other people leading. Now, you're leading people that lead people that lead people.

    28. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. DR

      Now, you're moving into pathfinder. Pathfinder's a sweet spot. Money is coming and you're bailing it. You're bailing money. You're making money. You're good at what you do. It's a well-oiled machine, we always say around here.

    30. CS

      Mm-hmm.

  14. 50:01 – 53:00

    The Challenge of Succession Planning

    1. DR

      the founder-

    2. CS

      Yep

    3. DR

      ... turning it over is the hardest succession plan emotionally.

    4. CS

      Okay.

    5. DR

      'Cause the founder is always a hardhead. We're always stubborn. We're always self-important. We're always, um, have that Messiah complex.

    6. CS

      Yeah.

    7. DR

      We always have that, and, and it can be in any business. Media is particularly bad because we dare to step on a stage or in front of a microphone, which requires another level of ego, but, uh, yeah, you really gotta fight against that and, and start to realize, "Okay, it's the message that's important. It's the method that's important. It... And, and someone else can do it, and if you don't believe me, watch when someone else does."

    8. CS

      Yeah. You know, it's a great point. Like, one of our c- portfolio company CEOs, he, he's an incredible operator. He's run this business really well for a long time, but to get to the next level, y- you can't do the same thing to get to nine figures as you did to get to low level eight.

    9. DR

      Exactly.

    10. CS

      It's just not gonna do it.

    11. DR

      Right.

    12. CS

      And so what's fascinating is he surround himself kind of with this, like, band of merry fools, and they were okay for the level he was at before, but they are actually detrimental for the next level.

    13. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    14. CS

      And so I actually gave him this book b- because my point was, [smacks lips] like, you have felt good and benefited from the fact that you were the head of the table and everybody listened to you, and in your next venture, if you are the person everybody's listening to and they aren't smarter than you, you're never gonna make it.

    15. DR

      Yeah.

    16. CS

      And-

    17. DR

      You gotta walk into that room of youngsters and not know what they're saying.

    18. CS

      Right.

    19. DR

      If you're not that guy, then you're gonna die. You're gonna get taken out. The marketplace will shear your head from your shoulders.

    20. CS

      Mm. Yeah.

    21. DR

      [laughs] It's bad. It's brutal out there. [laughs]

    22. CS

      Yeah, you really gotta get over your own BS-

    23. DR

      Yeah. Yeah

    24. CS

      ... which is hard.

    25. DR

      And again, but it, it takes a level of that to start something. The people that don't have that oomph-

    26. CS

      Right

    27. DR

      ... that it factor, that I'm gonna throw my shoulders back and show the world, you know, y- you know, if you're, if you're just a timid little mouse, you're not gonna start anything, so you gotta go bust into it.

    28. CS

      Yeah.

    29. DR

      You gotta knock stuff down. You gotta create friction and piss some people off. I mean, that's... You gotta go do that, and then but once you get to doing that, you gotta realize, "Okay, the best way to keep doing this is have people smarter and even better at and more energetic than me around me."

    30. CS

      Yeah, and kind of m- get excited by that. Like, "Look who I attracted."

  15. 53:00 – 58:15

    The Heart of Entrepreneurship: Serving Others

    1. DR

      Well, I mean, the, the first thing that... And I just talked to our team about it this morning in a staff meeting, reminding them yet again one of our core values here is if you're helping enough people, you don't have to worry about money. So too many times when we start something, we are enamored with our own idea, our own ability, and the idea is the thing rather than the customer.

    2. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DR

      And what I wanna do is I want the person that is not inside the building to be blessed-

    4. CS

      Mm

    5. DR

      ... to be changed, to be served, to have their mind blown. The people inside the building all get their mind blown, eh, not so much. Not so much. You know? It doesn't do anything. What happens is when all those people out there all over the world, I get the opportunity to help one of them with their budget. I get the opportunity to help one of them with their marriage. I get to help one of them with their spiritual walk. I get to help one of them with their small business. When they, you know, and so we don't build anything for us. We build everything for them, and when you first start, that's not natural.

    6. CS

      Mm.

    7. DR

      That's, uh, that's paradoxical because you're, you're kinda into what you're doing, and you're like, "Ooh, the, I, I'm kinda good at this, and this is kinda cool."

    8. CS

      That's right.

    9. DR

      And, um, it was for me anyway, and so, I mean, I did the first cassette tapes or VHS tapes. You know? I was like, "Wow, look at that guy. He's s- he's funny, and he's good." And, and, uh, and it kinda started coming to me, "No one cares" [laughs]

    10. CS

      That's true.

    11. DR

      ... "except your mama and your wife." [laughs]

    12. CS

      And they also don't.

    13. DR

      And they, and they don't care that much.

    14. CS

      [laughs]

    15. DR

      So, you know, it's like, uh... But that, I think that's a thing. You serve, serve, serve. A- and if you can find a way to make other people's life better and, um, and let them be the hero in the story, as my friend Don Miller says-

    16. CS

      Mm

    17. DR

      ... don't even have to be the hero. You can be the guide. And, um, you know, that kinda stuff, it, it makes, it, it just makes you have a good quality life, and you've got a good philosophical, spiritual underpinning to your business then that you can, "Okay, we're about service. We're about service." And when you interact with an organization, a business-

    18. CS

      Uh-huh

    19. DR

      ... that is, uh, that is about themselves, you feel the take rather than the give. And when you interact with a company that is all about service, you, you come away with your mind blown because they're fairly rare.

    20. CS

      That's such a good point. Yeah, wasn't it Don Miller that talked about the fact that, um, you think that you're Skywalker as the business-

    21. DR

      Mm-hmm

    22. CS

      ... owner, but you're actually Yoda.

    23. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. CS

      I need to remember so- that often.

    25. DR

      Yeah.

    26. CS

      And I love that visual. I love the visual because one, you're like, you know, you're not the sexy, young hero of the story. You're like the wrinkly, green, old-

    27. DR

      Mm-hmm

    28. CS

      ... you know, kind in the background. And then also that everybody thinks they're the hero in the story, so it's such a great point.

    29. DR

      And since they're the, since they think they're the hero, if you put yourself in the hero seat, they don't wanna talk to you.

    30. CS

      Yeah, it's true.

  16. 58:15 – 1:05:14

    Navigating the Pain Cave of Business

    1. DR

      Um, the only thing that we've done, a- and there's nothing, uh... I tell entrepreneurs this all the time because I, I deal with them like you do that are there, they're in that... Anytime I'm talking to an audience of 1,000 people, a certain number of them are in a pain cave, right? Um, i- it is first do a gut check and say, "Why am I in this business?"

    2. CS

      Hmm.

    3. DR

      "Am I in it just to make money?" Uh, you may be done, um, because the pain cave may be telling you it's time to quit 'cause you suck and, you know, it's not gonna make you money. Your, your goal was to make money. Your only goal was to make money. I'm not against making money, don't misunderstand. But if that's your only thing, um, money's great, get you some, but if you eat enough lobster, it tastes like soap. So it's just, there's only so much you can do with money. So, but if you're not in it just for money, you're the second category, and you, you wanna make some money, you wanna bless your family, you wanna do those things. But the reason you're in the business is 'cause something's burning inside of you. You can't not do it. You have to do this. Um, if that's you a- and you're in there with your face in your hands, uh, welcome to the club. You're in the game. Take the next step. Take the next step. Don't sit. If, if you're in the pain cave, it's time to stand up and step out, and step out. Take another step, take another step, and pretty soon you'll see light, and you can work your way out of the cave. Um, there'll be a little light up there, a pen light, and then it'll get bigger, and then it'll get bigger and, um, but, um, you, you, um... A- and, and I guess the third p- or the, other than take the next right step and keep taking the next right step, the second piece of advice would be o- on that is, um, when you do get into the light, you're going to laugh-

    4. CS

      Hmm

    5. DR

      ... when you look back about what you thought was gonna kill you, how small it is. You're gonna laugh at what a drama queen you really are. And I look back at some of the stuff that I thought, "Oh, God, this is the end." And I look back and I'm going, "That? That was the end? You were a complete wuss." [laughs] You know? It was like, "No way."

    6. CS

      So true.

    7. DR

      But w- you know, but you don't get that perspective until you get out into the light. When you're in it, it feels like the world is coming to an end, that the, that's the end. That's, uh, you know, the last thing. No, there's one more. And if you, if you walk your way out and you look back, it's, uh, when I look back at stuff 25 or 30 years ago and I think, "That, uh, that almost took us, I thought that was gonna take us out. I thought we weren't gonna make it," um, it's humorous to me how stupid I was that I thought... You know, it's that big now, but time gives you that perspective. It, I thought it was the end of the, I thought it was a 10-story building

    8. CS

      It's so true. I keep this meme on my phone that's, uh... It's like a picture of a just, just... It's like a drawing, but of a man that just looks like he's going through it, and he's staring up at God, and he's like, you know, "Why have you presented me the most horrible challenge yet?" And you see Jesus look down at him, and he goes, "Man, just go take a walk outside and get some vitamin D-

    9. DR

      [laughs]

    10. CS

      ... and get off your phone." [laughs]

    11. DR

      [laughs]

    12. CS

      And I giggle every time I look at it.

    13. DR

      Yeah. Yeah, that's it.

    14. CS

      Because the solution is, like you said, it's just one step in front of the other, and also realizing that entropy is physics, which just means problems get worse and worse and worse, but we become more capable of fixing them.

    15. DR

      Yeah.

    16. CS

      And so it's a great, it's a great reminder. And also, man, thank God there's problems, otherwise we'd make no money, 'cause that's the only way we get paid, right?

    17. DR

      Everybody would do it if it was easy.

    18. CS

      Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. So this next book will be one of now the next, the next series of 30 million books you'll have sold. [laughs]

    19. DR

      [laughs] I hope.

    20. CS

      Yeah.

    21. DR

      Your lips to God's ears.

    22. CS

      Exactly. Um, when you put this in the next gen's hands, what's, like, the one thing, if they could take one thing out of this book, as you can tell, I have a ridiculous amount of notes in this thing, but if you had to pick one, what would you hope somebody takes out of this?

    23. DR

      Um, w- we have learned around here, and it's true of this book and this material, that there is great hope and a clear path.

    24. CS

      Mm.

    25. DR

      That, um, if I can see that this is where it's going, then I can keep my energy level up. When you can't see where it's going, we experience burnout. When you can see where it's going, it's only fatigue. And so, um, uh, yeah, I can see where it's going. I can move from treadmill to pathfinder. I can use these six drivers in business that we talk about in the book, and, um, these are systems and paths that help me make the next thing. A- and it's a, uh, by a guide, a Yoda that's trustworthy, 'cause not only have I been there, done that, but we've also been there, done that with 10,000 businesses. So this is not think tank theory. This is not academia. Uh, this is actually people freaking running businesses, and it, it probably won't work if you're running a, a, a, a, you know, a, a $700 billion business or something. It wouldn't work for Apple. Uh, it, that's not what it's written for. It's wor- written for the veterinarian, uh, for the heating and air guy, uh, for the young podcaster, for the, uh, whatever, somebody that's starting a- and/or is in the early stages, or they've been running it for 10 years and they just feel stuck.

    26. CS

      Yeah.

    27. DR

      And they don't know, but, well, you're supposed to be there now, and somebody needs to tell you that and show you why and then show you what the next things are to level up. And, uh, so the clear path gives hope.

    28. CS

      I love that. Well, I think one of my richest friends told me that if you can do one thing in life, it's, uh, if you can buy somebody else's 10,000 hours, you should.

    29. DR

      Yeah.

    30. CS

      And so this is a pretty cheap price tag. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Episode duration: 1:05:14

In the uListen app, the transcript lights up word by word as you listen. Get uListen

Transcript of episode vEgcP1CYawg

Get more out of YouTube videos.

Read along on your phone, search it beside the video, or ask your favorite AI app what was said.

iOSAndroidClaudeChatGPTChrome