Satya Nadella & Sam Altman: Dawn of the AI Wars | The Circuit with Emily Chang

Emily Chang 0:00 [upbeat music]

Emily Chang 0:03 I've been covering this industry a long time, and there is always some new, new thing that big tech is chasing. First, it was self-driving cars, and then it was the metaverse, and now everyone is all in on AI. There's one big tech giant that's made it clear it's not missing out. So welcome to Microsoft headquarters in Redmond, Washington, where they have made a massive investment in OpenAI. They are already off to the races integrating this new technology. But winning is a totally different story. I'm about to go talk to Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella about why he thinks he can do it.

Satya Nadella 0:44 Thank you for coming.

Emily Chang 0:45 And I haven't seen you in person in so long.

Satya Nadella 0:46 I know. It's, it's been ages.

Emily Chang 0:48 [upbeat music]

Emily Chang 0:49 Microsoft is a household name that totally revolutionized how we work over 30 years ago. Windows, Word, Excel, PowerPoint. These products turned the software maker into a behemoth, put the big in big tech, and made Microsoft's co-founder, Bill Gates, and its next CEO, Steve Ballmer, billionaires. But in the '90s, the US government accused Microsoft of being a monopoly, and then the company settled a massive antitrust suit. For over a decade, Microsoft stock flat-lined. Then came Satya Nadella, the guy Microsoft hoped would make the company cool again.

Satya Nadella 1:25 This company's had three CEOs. [laughs] They're all right here. This is all-

Speaker 1:29 [cheers]

Emily Chang 1:34 Nadella resurrected Microsoft as a power player in the market for business software and cloud computing, then positioned it at the forefront of the AI revolution, largely thanks to a massive investment in OpenAI. Microsoft is now OpenAI's main commercial partner, trading powerful servers and billions of dollars for access to ChatGPT, sparking new life into old products, especially their languishing search engine. It's not without its hiccups. We'll talk to OpenAI CEO Sam Altman in a moment, but first, this new AI chatbot is helping Satya in some surprising ways. Have you been-

Satya Nadella 2:12 Yeah

Emily Chang 2:12 ... playing around with it a lot?

Satya Nadella 2:13 Yeah, yeah.

Emily Chang 2:13 Like, fun stuff, discoveries?

Satya Nadella 2:15 [laughs] I am super verbose and polite now in email responses.

Emily Chang 2:22 [laughs] It's watching.

Satya Nadella 2:24 Yes.

Emily Chang 2:24 The AI is always watching.

Satya Nadella 2:26 It is, it is fun. Like, the guy who leads our, uh, office team, and I was responding to him, and he was like, "What is this, man?"

Emily Chang 2:32 [laughs]

Satya Nadella 2:32 You're, like, sort of so pleasant. [laughs]

Emily Chang 2:36 [laughs]

Satya Nadella 2:36 Yeah, it's sort of very habit-forming in the sense that once you get used to having chat, even if I'm using it one in a... Because there's-

Emily Chang 2:45 Yeah

Satya Nadella 2:45 ... a lot of times I'm just navigating-

Emily Chang 2:46 Mm-hmm

Satya Nadella 2:46 ... using Search as a navigational tool. But once you get used to it, you kinda feel like I gotta have these rails.

Emily Chang 2:52 Microsoft has been working on AI for decades, and chatbots actually aren't anything new. But all of a sudden, everyone is salivating. Why do you think the moment for AI is now?

Satya Nadella 3:05 AI has been here... In fact, it's mainstream, right? I mean, Search is an AI product even, the current generation of Search. Every news aggregation, recommendation in YouTube or e-commerce or TikTok are all AI products, except they're all... I would say today's generation of AI is all autopilot. Uh, in fact, it's a black box that is dictating, in fact, how our attention is focused. Whereas going forward, the thing [laughs] that's most exciting about this generation of AI is perhaps we move from autopilot to copilot-

Emily Chang 3:39 Mm

Satya Nadella 3:39 ... where we actually prompt it.

Emily Chang 3:42 How transformative a change do you think this will be in how we work?

Satya Nadella 3:47 I think the, probably the biggest difference-maker will be Business Chat. Because if you think about the most important database in any company is the database underneath all of your productivity software, except that data is all siloed today. But now I can say, "Oh, I'm going to meet this customer. Can you tell me the last time I met them? Can you bring up all the documents that are written up about this customer and summarize it so that I'm current on what I need to be prepped for?"

Emily Chang 4:13 How do you make sure it's not Clippy 2.0?

Satya Nadella 4:15 [laughs]

Emily Chang 4:15 That it is helpful, delightful, doesn't wanna make me click out ASAP?

Sam Altman 4:20 Once they're under my control, the entire world will be subject to my whims. Go away, you paper clip. No one likes you.

Satya Nadella 4:30 [laughs] There are two sets of things.

Emily Chang 4:31 [laughs]

Satya Nadella 4:32 One is, you know-

Emily Chang 4:33 You're laughing because...

Satya Nadella 4:34 Because look, look, the, the, we, like, our industry is full of lots of, you know, examples from Clippy to even let's say current generation of these assistants and so on. They all are brittle. I think we are also going to have to learn that ultimately these are tools. Just like any time somebody sends me a draft, I review the draft. I just don't accept the draft. [laughs]

Emily Chang 4:54 [laughs]

Satya Nadella 4:55 We will do that.

Emily Chang 4:56 In 1995, Bill Gates sent a memo calling the internet a tidal wave that would change all the rules and was gonna be crucial to every part of the business. Is AI that big?

Satya Nadella 5:07 Yeah, I mean, in fact, I, I sort of say the ChatGPT when it first came out was like when Mosaic first came out, I think in 1993. And so yes, it does feel like, you know, to the Bill memo in 1995, it does feel like that to me. Um-

Emily Chang 5:22 So it's as big as the internet.

Satya Nadella 5:23 I think it's as big. It's just... Like, in all of these things, right, we in the tech industry are, you know, classic experts at over-hyping everything. I hope, but at least that what motivates me is I wanna use this technology to truly do what I think at least all of us are in tech for, which is democratizing access to it.

Emily Chang 5:41 How much market share do you think you can really take from Google? Like-

Satya Nadella 5:44 [laughs]

Emily Chang 5:44 ... what's your prediction, prediction? Give me a, give me your gut.

Satya Nadella 5:47 Look, we are a real... I'm, I'm thrilled to be in search. We're a very small player in search, uh, and I look forward to every inch we gain is a big gain.

Emily Chang 6:00 You're coming for search. They're coming for Office. They're now putting AI in there, Google Docs, Sheets, and Gmail. Are we just gonna see you and Sundar trying to one-up each other every week-

Satya Nadella 6:10 [laughs]

Emily Chang 6:10 ... in this race to AI greatness?

Satya Nadella 6:12 [laughs] I mean, look, at the end of the day, the fun part of being in this industry and competing is, but, you know, it's, it's the innovation. Uh, a- and competition is, the last time I checked, a fantastic thing for users and the industry. And I think, you know, Google's gonna do, uh, you know, is a very innovative company, and, uh, and we have a lot of respect for them, and, uh, I expect us to compete in multiple categories.

Emily Chang 6:36 Microsoft just reportedly laid off a team focused on ethical and responsible AI. Meantime, you've got the Center for Humane Technology calling the race to AI a race to recklessness. How do you respond to that?

Satya Nadella 6:50 This is no longer a side thing for Microsoft, right? Because in some sense, whether it's design, whether it's alignment, safety, ethics, it's kinda like saying quality, performance, and design, core design. So I can't have now an AI team on the side. It's all being mainstream. And then I think i- if anything, debate, dialogue, um, and scrutiny on what is this pace of innovation, uh, is it really creating benefits for society, I think are absolutely, and far, I welcome it. But in that context, let's also recognize, especially with this AI, well, why would, why would we not asking ourselves, like, the AI that's already in our lives, and how, what is it doing?

Emily Chang 7:35 [laughs] Right.

Satya Nadella 7:35 There's a lot of AI that I don't even know what it's doing-

Emily Chang 7:38 Mm-hmm

Satya Nadella 7:38 ... and except I'm happily clicking away and accepting the recommendations. So why don't we [laughs] in fact educate ourselves to ask all of what AI is doing in our lives, and then say how to do it safely and in an aligned way.

Emily Chang 7:51 I think a lot about my kids and how AI will have something that I don't, which is an infinite amount of time to spend with them, and how these chatbots are so friendly, and how quickly that could turn into an unhealthy relationship or, you know, maybe it's nudging them to make a bad decision.

Satya Nadella 8:08 That's a great point.

Emily Chang 8:08 As a parent, does any part of that scare you?

Satya Nadella 8:12 Ab- it, it... So that's kind of one of the reasons why I think, um, this moving from autopilot to this Copilot hopefully gives us more control, whether it's as parents or, more importantly, even as children. We should, of course, be very, very watchful of what happens. Uh, but at the same time, I think this generation of bots and this generation of AI probably just go from engagement to more, uh, it giving us more agency to learn.

Emily Chang 8:40 I wanna ask about jobs because obviously Microsoft makes software that helps people do their jobs, and I wonder if AI-laden software will put some people out of jobs. Sam Altman has this idea that AI is going to create this kind of utopia and generate wealth that's gonna be enough to cut everyone a decent-sized check but eliminate some jobs. Do you agree with that?

Satya Nadella 9:03 You know, look, I mean, this, you know, from Keynes to, I guess, Altman, they've all talked about the two-day work week, and I'm looking forward to it. But the point is, yes, there's going to be ch- some changes in jobs. There's going to be some places where there'll be wage pressure. There will be wa- opportunities for increased wages because of increased productivity. We should look at it all, and at the same time, being very clear-eyed about any displacement risk. [upbeat music]

Emily Chang 9:28 At the center of a potentially tectonic shift in job creation is Sam Altman. He's promised that AI will create a kind of utopia when it joins the workforce while also raising alarms about the dangers, signing his name to statements warning of the risk of extinction. For many, the upsides of AI are hard to believe. The fear that AI could take their jobs in part led to the prolonged writers' and actors' strike in Hollywood.

Sam Altman 9:53 ChatGPT is a moron-type of system, chronic-type of system that didn't really write great stories.

Emily Chang 10:01 Over the summer, Altman traveled the world to talk about the promise and peril of AI. I caught up with him when he returned to San Francisco at Bloomberg's annual tech summit. So you've been traveling a ton.

Sam Altman 10:14 Yeah.

Emily Chang 10:15 What's the, like, eat, sleep, meditate, yoga, tech routine?

Sam Altman 10:19 Um, there was, like, no meditation or yoga on the entire trip and almost no exercise. That was tough. I slept fine, actually.

Emily Chang 10:27 Was the goal more listening or explaining?

Sam Altman 10:29 The goal was more listening. It ended up with more explaining than we expected. We ended up meeting, like, many, many world leaders and talked about the sort of, the need for global regulation, and that was, like, more explaining. The listening was super valuable. I came back with, like, 100 handwritten pages of notes.

Emily Chang 10:46 I, I heard that you do handwritten notes.

Sam Altman 10:48 I do handwritten notes.

Emily Chang 10:48 What, what happens to the handwritten notes?

Sam Altman 10:50 Well, in this case, like, I distilled it into, like, here are the top 50 pieces of, like, feedback from our users and-

Emily Chang 10:54 Mm-hmm

Sam Altman 10:55 ... what we need to go off and do. But there's, like, a lot of things when you, like, get people in person, like, face-to-face or over a drink or whatever, where people really will just, like, say, you know, "Here is, like, my very harsh feedback on what you're doing wrong, and what I want to be different."

Emily Chang 11:08 You didn't go to China or Russia.

Sam Altman 11:10 I spoke remotely in China, but not Russia.

Emily Chang 11:14 Should we be worried about them?

Sam Altman 11:16 Um...

Emily Chang 11:17 And where they are on AI or what they might do with it?

Sam Altman 11:20 Yeah, I would love to know more precisely where they are. That would be helpful. We have, I think, very imperfect information there. Mm.

Emily Chang 11:28 So how has ChatGPT changed your own behavior?

Sam Altman 11:32 There's, like, a lot of, like, little ways, and then kind of like one big thought. The, the little ways are, you know, like on this trip, for example, the translation was, like, a lifesaver. Um, I also use it, uh, if I'm trying to, like, write something, which I write a lot. It's never published, just, like, for my own thinking, and I find that I, like, write faster and can think more somehow.

Emily Chang 11:52 Mm-hmm.

Sam Altman 11:52 So it's, like, a great unsticking tool. But then the big way is I am, I am s- I, I see the path towards, like, this just being, like, my super assistant for all of my-

Emily Chang 12:03 Mm

Sam Altman 12:03 ... cognitive work.

Emily Chang 12:04 Super assistant.

Sam Altman 12:05 Yeah.

Emily Chang 12:05 You know, we've talked about relationships with chatbots. Do you see this as something that people could get emotionally attached to, and how do you feel about that?

Sam Altman 12:13 I think language models in general are something that people are getting emotionally attached to. Um, and you know, I have like a complex set of thoughts about that. I personally find it strange. I don't want it for myself. I have a lot of concerns. I don't wanna be like the kind of like people telling other people what they can do with tech, but it seems to me like something you need to be careful with.

Emily Chang 12:36 You've talked about how you are constantly in rooms full of people going, "Holy [beep] .

Sam Altman 12:40 Yeah.

Emily Chang 12:41 What was the last holy [beep] moment?

Sam Altman 12:43 It was like very interesting to get out of the SF echo chamber, whatever you wanna call it, a- and- and see like the ways in which the holy [beep] concerns were the same everywhere, uh, and also the ways they were different. So like everywhere people are like, "The rate of change seems really fast. You know, what is this gonna do to the economy, good and bad?" There's change, and change brings anxiety for people.

Emily Chang 13:05 There's a lot of anxiety out there. There's a lot of fear. The comparisons to nuclear, the comparisons to bio weapons, are those fair? Or is that overdramatic?

Sam Altman 13:13 So, so there is a lot of anxiety and fear, but, uh, I mean, there's like way more excitement out there. I think like with any very powerful technology, synthetic bio and nuclear are two of those, and AI is a third, there are major downsides we have to manage to be able to get the upsides. Um, and with this technology, I expect the upsides to be far greater than anything we have seen, and the potential downsides also like super bad, super bad. So we do have to manage through those, but the quality of conversation about how to productively do that has gotten so much better so fast. Like, I went into the trip somewhat optimistic, and I finished it super optimistic.

Emily Chang 13:51 Yeah. So is your bunker prepped and ready to go for the AI apocalypse?

Sam Altman 13:54 Um, a bunker will not help anyone if there's an AI apocalypse.

Emily Chang 13:57 It's like-

Sam Altman 13:57 But I know that like, you know, journalists seem to really love that story. Uh-

Emily Chang 14:02 I do love that story

Sam Altman 14:03 ... I, I wouldn't over-correct on like boyhood survival prep. Uh, as a Cub Scout, I liked the stuff.

Emily Chang 14:09 Yeah.

Sam Altman 14:09 It's not gonna help with AI.

Emily Chang 14:11 There's been this talk about the kill switch, the big red button.

Sam Altman 14:15 I hope it's clear that's a joke.

Emily Chang 14:16 It's clear it's a joke.

Sam Altman 14:18 Okay.

Emily Chang 14:18 Could you actually turn it off if you wanted to?

Sam Altman 14:21 Yeah. Yeah, sure. I mean, we could like shut down our data centers or whatever, but I don't think that's what people mean by it. I think what we could do instead, um, is all of the best practices we're starting to develop around how to build this safely, the safety tests, external audits, internal/external red teams, lots more stuff, like the way that it would be turned off in practice is not the dramatic, you know, gigantic switch from the movies that cuts the power-

Emily Chang 14:47 Mm

Sam Altman 14:47 ... blah, blah, blah. It's that we have developed and are continuing to develop these rigorous safety practices. Um, and that's what the kill switch actually looks like, but it's not as theatric.

Emily Chang 14:57 There is now a new competitive environment.

Sam Altman 14:59 For sure.

Emily Chang 15:00 And OpenAI is clearly the front runner. But who are you looking over your shoulder at?

Sam Altman 15:05 This is like not only a competitive environment, but I think this is probably the most competitive environment in tech right now. So we're sort of like looking at everybody, but I always, you know, given my background in startups, uh, I directionally worry more about the people that we don't even know to look at yet that'll, that could come up with some really new idea we missed.

Emily Chang 15:23 Mm. Mm-hmm. How would you describe your relationship with Satya Nadella, how much control they have? You know, I've heard people say, you know, "Microsoft's just gonna buy OpenAI. You're just making big tech bigger."

Sam Altman 15:35 Um, the company's not for sale. [laughs] Like, I don't know how to be more clear than that.

Emily Chang 15:41 Mm-hmm.

Sam Altman 15:41 Uh, we have a great relationship with them. I think it's a... that these like big major partnerships between tech companies usually don't work. This is an example of it working really well. We're like super grateful for it.

Emily Chang 15:53 Have you talked to Elon at all behind the scenes?

Sam Altman 15:55 Sometimes.

Emily Chang 15:56 Mm-hmm. What do you guys talk about? I mean, it's getting heated in the public.

Sam Altman 16:00 It- yeah.

Emily Chang 16:00 [laughs]

Sam Altman 16:02 Um, I mean, we talk about like a super wide variety of-

Emily Chang 16:05 Mm-hmm

Sam Altman 16:05 ... important and totally trivial stuff.

Emily Chang 16:08 Why do you think he's so frustrated? Or is kind of a... I mean, it's almost there's some attacking going on in a way.

Sam Altman 16:14 Um, you should ask him.

Emily Chang 16:15 I would like to know.

Sam Altman 16:16 [laughs]

Emily Chang 16:16 I'd like to better understand it.

Sam Altman 16:18 I don't think this is in the top like 100 most important things happening related to AI right now, for what it's worth.

Emily Chang 16:24 Is there any aspect of our lives that you think AI should never touch?

Sam Altman 16:29 My mom always used to say, uh, "Never say never, never say always."

Emily Chang 16:33 Mm-hmm.

Sam Altman 16:34 And, and I think that's like generally good advice. If I made a prediction now, I'm sure it could end up being wrong in some subtle way. I think AI is going to touch most aspects of our lives, and then there will be some parts that stay surprisingly the same.

Emily Chang 16:47 Mm-hmm.

Sam Altman 16:48 But those kind of predictions are like humbling and very easy to get wrong.

Emily Chang 16:52 What do you think kids should be studying these days?

Sam Altman 16:55 Resilience, uh, adaptability, a high rate of learning, creativity, certainly familiarity with the tools.

Emily Chang 17:01 Mm-hmm. So should kids still be learning how to code? 'Cause I've, I've heard people say, "Don't need to learn how to code anymore."

Sam Altman 17:06 Um-

Emily Chang 17:06 "Just math. Just biology".

Sam Altman 17:08 Well, I'm biased because I like coding, but I think you should learn to code. Uh, I don't write code very much anymore, although I randomly did yesterday.

Emily Chang 17:15 [laughs]

Sam Altman 17:15 Um, but learning to code was great as a way to learn how to think, and I think coding will still be important in the future. It's just gonna change a little bit or a lot. We have a new tool.

Emily Chang 17:25 What are we all gonna do when we have nothing to do?

Sam Altman 17:29 I don't think we're ever gonna have nothing to do. I think what we have to do may change. You know, like what you and I do for our jobs-

Emily Chang 17:36 Mm

Sam Altman 17:36 ... would not strike people from a few thousand years ago as real work. Um, but we found new things to want and to do and ways to feel useful to other people and get fulfillment and create, and that will never stop. But probably, I hope you and I look, you know, if we could look at the world a few hundred years in the future, be like, "Wow, those people have it so good. I can't believe they call this stuff work. It's so trivial."

Emily Chang 18:01 Hmm. So we're not gonna be all just laying on the beach eating Bon Bons?

Sam Altman 18:04 Some of us will, and more power to people who wanna do that.

Emily Chang 18:07 Do you think in your heart of hearts that the world is gonna be more fair and more equitable?

Sam Altman 18:12 I do. I do. I think that technology is fundamentally an equalizing force. Um, it needs partnership from society and our institutions to get there, but if we can... Like, my, like my big-picture, highest-level, like zoom-all-the-way-out view of the next decade is that the cost of intelligence and the cost of energy come way, way down.

Emily Chang 18:33 Mm-hmm.

Sam Altman 18:34 And if those two things happen, it helps everyone, which is great, but I think it lifts up the floor a lot.

Emily Chang 18:39 So where do you wanna take OpenAI next?

Sam Altman 18:42 We wanna keep making better and better, uh, more capable models and make them available more widely and less expensive.

Emily Chang 18:49 What about the field of AI in general?

Sam Altman 18:51 There's many people working on this, so we don't get to take the field anywhere. But we're pretty happy with our contribution. Like, we think we have nudged the field in a way that we're proud of. So we're working on new things, too.

Emily Chang 19:02 What are the new things?

Sam Altman 19:04 They're still in progress.

Emily Chang 19:05 Is there room for startups in this world?

Sam Altman 19:07 Totally. I mean, we were a startup not very long ago.

Emily Chang 19:09 Yeah. But you're almost already an incumbent.

Sam Altman 19:12 Of course, but when we started, like, you could have asked the same question. In fact, people did.

Emily Chang 19:16 Yeah.

Sam Altman 19:16 In fact, I myself wondered, like, is it possible to take on Google and DeepMind, or have they already won?

Emily Chang 19:22 And they clearly haven't.

Sam Altman 19:23 Yeah. Like, I think there's a lot... It's always easy to sort of count yourself out as the startup, but startups keep doing their thing.

Emily Chang 19:32 Well, nobody's counting you out, so guess that's a good thing.

Sam Altman 19:35 I guess so. [upbeat music]

Emily Chang 19:47 The one and only person who's gonna be deciding our futures.

Sam Altman 19:51 I don't think so. [audience laughing]

Emily Chang 19:54 So you have been everywhere [laughs] in like the last few months.

Sam Altman 19:56 That was, that was a long trip, yeah. It's like a very special experience to just go talk to people that are like users, developers, also world leaders interested in AI like all day, every day for so long.

Emily Chang 20:06 In the middle of th- all this, you signed a 22-word statement warning about the dangers of AI. It reads, "Mitigating the risk of extinction from AI should be a global priority alongside other societal-scale risks, such as pandemics and nuclear war." Connect the dots for us here. How do we get from a cool chatbot to the end of humanity?

Sam Altman 20:29 Well, we're gonna- we're planning not to.

Emily Chang 20:32 That's the hope.

Sam Altman 20:32 Like, you know, that's the hope.

Emily Chang 20:34 But there's also the fear.

Sam Altman 20:36 Um, I mean, I think there's many ways it could go wrong, but we, we work with powerful technology that can be used in dangerous ways very frequently in the world. Um, and I think we've developed over the y- decades good safety system practices in many categories. Uh, it's not perfect, and this won't be perfect either. Things will go wrong. The main thing that I feel is important about this technology is that we are on an exponential curve, and a relatively steep one, and human intuition for exponential curves is like really bad in general. Um, it clearly was not that important in our evolutionary history. And, and so I think we have to, given that we all have that weakness, I think we have to like really push ourselves to say, "Okay, GPT-4, you know, not, not a risk like you're talking about there, but how sure are we that GPT-9 won't be? And if it might be, even if there's a small percentage chance of it being really bad, like, that deserves great care."

Emily Chang 21:38 And if there is that small percentage chance, why keep doing this at all? Like, why not stop?

Sam Altman 21:43 I mean, a bunch of reasons. I, I think it's, A, I think that the upsides here are tremendous. The, you know, opportunity for everyone on Earth to have a better quality education than, than basically anyone can get today, um, that seems like really important, and that'd be a bad thing to stop. Um, medical care and what's, I think, gonna happen there, uh, and making that available like truly globally, uh, that, that's gonna be transformative. The scientific progress we're gonna see, I'm a, I'm a big believer that, like, real sustainable improvements in quality of life come from scientific and technological progress, and I think we're gonna have a lot more of that. So there are all the obvious benefits, and you know, like I think it'd be good to end poverty, but we gotta manage through the risk to get there. I also think at this point, given how much people see the economic benefits and potential, um, no company could stop it.

Emily Chang 22:38 I think even you would acknowledge you have an incredible amount of power at this moment in time. Why should we trust you?

Sam Altman 22:47 Um, you shouldn't. Like, uh, you know, I don't... As you, you've known me for a long time, um, public talking, like I'd rather be in the office working. I, I, but I think at this moment in time, like people deserve basically as much time asking questions as they want, and I'm trying to show up and do it. But more to that, uh, like no one person should be trusted here. The board can fire me. I think that's important. I think the board over time needs to get like democratized to all of humanity. There's many ways that could be implemented. We think this technology, the benefits, the access to it, the governance of it belongs to humanity as a whole. If this really works, it's like quite a powerful technology, and you should not trust one company and certainly not one person with it. [outro music]