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Divorce Lawyer Gets EMOTIONAL: The Shocking Truth Of Divorce & How To Not F*ck Your Relationship!

Today's guest is the legendary Divorce Lawyer, @sextonshow

James SextonguestCalum Johnsonhost

Jul 27, 20261h 35mWatch on YouTube ↗

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Transcript

85 min read · 17,099 words

0:00 – 2:05
Intro
1. JSJames Sexton
  If you've been in a relationship more than six months, there's a sentence you have in your head that you could say out loud to your partner that would reduce them to tears. If you don't know that sentence, it, it actually might be a sign that you-
2. CJCalum Johnson
  What do you think when I say the dark side of marriage?
3. JSJames Sexton
  Weaponized intimacy. Like, I've seen people go at the things people love. I saw someone euthanize someone's dog.
4. CJCalum Johnson
  You know what, something else you said, you said, uh, we have an infinite capacity for love. I think about the person that's had like that just heart-wrenching moment or lost someone, and it's like in that moment you close yourself off to everything.
5. JSJames Sexton
  And that's okay. You know? Like, I'm so grateful to the version of me that was like, "No, I will never do this again." Like, so mad. Like, just mad. Like, mad at God, mad at everything, mad at this whole thing. Like, why? Why? Why would you make it like this? It doesn't make sense, like, that something could feel so beautiful and you take it, it's, it's gone. Like, why would you do that?
6. CJCalum Johnson
  Before we get into the episode, I have to say that it's pretty surreal to me that I get to do this and record this show for you guys, and so many of you tune in and leave comments and likes on the content. The reason why I do this show and I record every single week is that I want to show that anything is possible. Any dream, any delusion that you have in your mind right now, you can bring it to reality. One of my goals at the moment is that I have this crazy delusional dream that this time next year we'll reach a million subscribers on this channel. And so if you click that subscribe button, the promise that I'll make to you is that we're gonna improve this show every single week. And so I want to take you on that journey with me. So hit that subscribe button and let's get into
2:05 – 6:28
Why a divorce lawyer believes in love
1. CJCalum Johnson
  the show. You've been a divorce lawyer for over two decades.
2. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
3. CJCalum Johnson
  You've literally been a part of thousands of divorce cases. But actually what you write on the back of your book, you say, "Though I constantly deal with the heartbreak of others, I still believe in romance and the transformative power of love."
4. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
5. CJCalum Johnson
  Why?
6. JSJames Sexton
  [inhales] I don't know how a person could do what I do and not be in awe of how much love means to us as a species. I mean, you can look at what I do as, you know, the rubble of broken hearts and broken promises, or you can look at it as an affirmation of, of how much we all at some point believe in this thing. Like, believe in this thing that there isn't a lot of proof to support, you know, the idea that there's like one person and they're your person and you're their person and, and, and by the way, like, the number of people that I see just destroyed, like, just broken. Like, they come to my office and their spouse left or they found out they were cheating or whatever. Like, some, some just brutal feeling, you know, that they've just-- it's over, their life is over as they knew it. And then, like, to see them a year later, two years later, like, rising from the ashes of that, and then three, four years later to get invited to their wedding, you know, 'cause they're doing it again.
7. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
8. JSJames Sexton
  Like, 'cause they-- like, no matter... You know, over 50% of marriages end in divorce. There's probably another 5 to 10%, that's at least what most of the statistics say, that they separate but never divorce. And then there's another 20 to 25% that have what's called a low marriage satisfaction rate, where essentially they say, "Yeah, I wish I hadn't married this person." Which those numbers are terrifying if you think about it. Like, the chances of you having a successful happy marriage are very low, and yet 86% of people are remarried within five years of their divorce.
9. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
10. JSJames Sexton
  Which to me, how do you not believe in love? Like, how do you not believe in romance? Like, how do you not-- And also too, like, you know, I, I'm human. Like, I feel love. I feel it. I've been in love. I've been loved. I-- you know, to me it-- saying like, "Do you believe in love?" is like saying like, "Do you believe in gravity?" Like, I don't have to believe in gravity. It exists. Like, it's undeniable. It's not like I could say, "I don't believe in gravity," and I'll fall up. Like, no, like, it doesn't require me to believe in it, it's just true. You know, love is something I feel. Love is something that I see all around me, people expressing in different ways, you know? I even see us doing incredibly stupid things because we're afraid of being loved, because we're afraid we're unworthy of love. Like, the things we do to try to feel like we might be worthy of love or might show someone else that we're worthy of love. Like, love is the-- it's like gravity. It's the thing. It's the thing that makes everything else move.
11. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
12. JSJames Sexton
  And so, you know, being part of the architecture of its dismantling and the architecture of what someone's life looks like after their heart's been broken, I, I, I don't know how it would make you less of a romantic. I, I, it, I think it only makes you more of a romantic.
13. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. You know what? I think about the times that we're in, and, uh, with social media, there's so much commentary.
14. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
15. CJCalum Johnson
  There's so many experts, like, on the topic of love, relationships.
16. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
17. CJCalum Johnson
  The expert that I don't hear much of, like, we see the relationship coaches and the gurus and all of these people.
18. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
19. CJCalum Johnson
  I don't hear from that many divorce lawyers.
20. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
21. CJCalum Johnson
  And so if someone's clicked on this conversation, they're watching at home, maybe they're even watching it with their partner-
22. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
23. CJCalum Johnson
  If they watch to the end, what is the value of hearing from you, someone-
24. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
25. CJCalum Johnson
  ... hearing from someone with your background and the thousands of cases that you've been a part of?
6:28 – 10:29
Watch this if you want your relationship to last
1. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah, I mean, you know, if I was, if I had a car, a new car and I wanted to keep it in really good shape, or I had an old car that I've had for a number of years and I wanna like get some more miles out of it, or if I was on the market for cars, like looking for cars, I don't think the person to talk to is a new car dealer. Like, a new car dealer is a salesman. A new car dealer doesn't really know how cars fall apart. He knows what a brand-new car looks like and smells like, and every new car is a nice car. Like what I wanna know is w- what's this car like 10,000 miles in, 100,000 miles in? Where are the parts in this car that breaks down? Who do you talk to for that? A mechanic.
2. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm-hmm.
3. JSJames Sexton
  Because a mechanic is gonna say, "Yeah, this car, it's reliable. This car tends to break down." Like, a person who watches how things fall apart, I think has a very unique vantage point as to how to keep them together, and that, that was really the genesis of me talking about relationships, was after, after 20-plus years of, of watching relationships fall apart and facilitating the demise of unhappy relationships. I realized it was like a reverse kind of wisdom. Like, because what is... You know, my mother used to say that it's really hard to define intelligence, but you could spot stupid a mile away.
4. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. That's a good... Yeah.
5. JSJames Sexton
  And I, I feel that way. Like it, like what's a happy relationship? Usually when you describe a happy relationship, you're just describing what it's not.
6. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
7. JSJames Sexton
  Like, they don't take swipes at each other, they don't neglect each other, they don't, you know, they're, they're, they're not, like not having sex with each other. You... So okay, so maybe like a happy relationship is one where there's a lack of unhappy.
8. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
9. JSJames Sexton
  So, you know, a good relationship, maybe it's one where it doesn't have the characteristics of all the bad relationships, and by the time someone's in my office, things are bad. So I, I think it's, it's about reverse engineering, like how, how to not screw up your relationship and how to not end up in my office.
10. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. I mean, you, you even say that in the book. You say, "This is not a how-to book, it's a how-to-not book."
11. JSJames Sexton
  Right.
12. CJCalum Johnson
  How to not fuck up your relationship-
13. JSJames Sexton
  Right
14. CJCalum Johnson
  ... or your marriage.
15. JSJames Sexton
  A perfectly good relationship.
16. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah.
17. JSJames Sexton
  Because at some point you had this abundance of goodwill. Like, I mean, that's the nature of relationships. Like, we spend so much time trying to get this job, you know? Like, well, you go job hunting, you know, you get your resume out there, you kinda do your whole thing. Like, if you look at relationships like a job search-
18. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm
19. JSJames Sexton
  ... and like, you go out, you send your resume to a lot of people, you know, and then maybe you get a couple of nibbles, you get a couple of rejections that you're like, "I don't know why they didn't even interview me." Or you have a few interviews and you go, "Oh, that didn't go well." But then at some point, like there's this little like spark of like, "I think I might have got the gig." Like, and you go home and you tell like your friends or your family, you're like, "Oh my God, this is great. Like, I think, I think they liked me and I really liked them, and like this has room for growth and like there might be room for promotion, and this could be something that could really, like this could be a career. This could be like..." Well, that's what dating is.
20. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
21. JSJames Sexton
  Like dating is like, "I, I think, I think this could be something. Like I, I... It's not right now, and I know it's not right now, and maybe I'll get fired in a month, but like, man, like it, it, this could be a thing," you know? And, and at some point, like you wanted this more than anything in the world, and they wanted it too.
22. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm-hmm.
23. JSJames Sexton
  And I feel like if, if we can find our way back to that mindset, or even better, if we're at a place in our relationship where we're still really excited about the fact we've got this job, I think it's a whole lot easier to keep that.
24. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
25. JSJames Sexton
  To keep it there.
10:29 – 17:25
The shocking truth about how relationships fall apart
1. JSJames Sexton
  And I think the way to do it is to pay attention and to do these little tiny things. 'Cause the, the thing that was most surprising to me when I thought about, what do all the people in my office have in common, it really was that none of them meant to be there, and they just made a series of small decisions that led them into my office. Because I've, I've said before, I think relationships end the same way we go bankrupt, very slowly and then all at once.
2. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
3. JSJames Sexton
  And it's the all at once that everybody wants to talk about. "He was cheating," or, "Oh yeah, she'd gone through all this money and didn't tell me and got all this debt." But it's like, no, no, you lost the plot before that.
4. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
5. JSJames Sexton
  Like, 'cause happy people, happy people don't cheat. Like, happy people are happy. Like, when you're first dating somebody and you're first sleeping with somebody, the last thing on your mind is, "Man, one of these days I gotta go sleep with somebody." You're like, "No, this is great. I'm happy." Like, when I'm full, I don't, I don't wanna eat anymore.
6. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
7. JSJames Sexton
  You know? So it's at some point that starts to slip away, and that's where I think we have the best chance of like correcting course.
8. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. You, you articulate it so eloquently in the sense that in relationships we all start off with the best intention.
9. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
10. CJCalum Johnson
  Through that journey, and you mention it's in small ways, we get derailed.
11. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
12. CJCalum Johnson
  And what started as such a beautiful intention-
13. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
14. CJCalum Johnson
  ... can end up in actually like a dark place. Like, there was someone, uh, Tom Perrotta.
15. JSJames Sexton
  Oh yeah, Tom. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, great writer.
16. CJCalum Johnson
  He said this, he said this in y- talking about your book. He said, "Nobody knows the dark side of marriage like a divorce lawyer, and James Sexton is a damn good one."
17. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
18. CJCalum Johnson
  When he talks about the dark side of marriage, and nobody knows it like a divorce lawyer, like yourself- What is he referring to? What do you think when I say the dark side of marriage?
19. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah. I, I mean, Tom is one of my favorite authors, and I was honored when he blurbed my book. I mean, he's a phenomenal writer. I think what he was talking about is the dark side of marriage or the dark side of divorce is weaponized intimacy. That's really what he's talking about. Like, to, to love someone and to be loved by them, you have to show them the soft spots, like the soft targets. Like, you have to be willing to, like, put your hands up and expose everything, expose your throat, you know, the whole thing. Because you know that they love you and that they're not gonna cut your throat. Like, you're gonna-- you can expose it. You can close your eyes around them and know they're gonna keep you safe. You can trust fall. You know? You can... All the, any, any metaphor you wanna use for trust. Because in order to, like, love and feel loved, you have to. Like, you just have to do that. You have to expose, again, maybe not 100% of yourself. That's really hard for people to do. But you have to let this person in. Like, they get to see you when you're sick. They get to see you when you're tired. They get to see you when you're not at your best. They get to hear you on the phone with your mom or with your brother and when you're frustrated. They get to see you when someone hurt you, and they start to learn. Like, if you're in a relationship, like, a- of any person listening to this, if you've been in a relationship more than six months, there's a sentence you have in your head that you could say out loud to your partner that would reduce them to tears, and you know the sentence. You might-- But hopefully you never thought about it. Uh, but, uh, you probably did at some point. When you're really mad at them, you think like, "Oh, I should just say to them, 'You know, you're exactly like your mom right now.'" Or, you know, like, "This is why your dad left." You know? Like, there's some sentence you could say that would just gut them. And if, if you don't know that sentence, it, it, it actually might be a sign that you don't know this person that well. You know? Like, to know someone is to also know their soft targets. Like the word intimacy, we think it's about sex. Intimacy is the ability to be completely yourself with another person. That's the definition of the word. So to be intimate with someone, you have to be vulnerable and open. When you weaponize intimacy-
20. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm
21. JSJames Sexton
  ... that is the darkest thing there is.
22. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
23. JSJames Sexton
  Because this person has trusted you with the things they're most afraid of, the things that they're most hurt by. Like, they've trusted you with that so you could love them-
24. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm
25. JSJames Sexton
  ... and, and help them feel safe in a world that feels unsafe, and now you can weaponize that against them. I think that's the most frightening feeling that you can have, you know, is weaponized intimacy.
26. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. Weaponized intimacy. That's almost-- It's like a different form of, of warfare. Like, it's-
27. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
28. CJCalum Johnson
  ... it's like on a whole different level.
29. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
30. CJCalum Johnson
  Even when you say that, 'cause I think about the thousands of cases that you've been involved in-
17:25 – 25:49
His ex wife kil*ed his dog!
1. JSJames Sexton
  they really do wanna love their mom and their dad so bad. And even, like, an abusive parent, like, that kid still wants that parent around. And so that's the thing I've seen people do. Like, I've seen people go at the things people love.
2. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
3. JSJames Sexton
  And that's so much more powerful of a form of just emotional terrorism.
4. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
5. JSJames Sexton
  You know, I've, I've seen people, like, I saw someone euthanize someone's dog, like, knowing that they loved this dog so much, and basically saying, "Oh yeah, they, the dog tried to bite somebody, so I had it put down." And it's not a crime, like, you know, but it was-- They absolutely did it to hurt this person, and, you know, that's an incredibly villainous thing to do. But again, you could do it, get away with it- And have a plausible deniability as to why you did it. Like, "Oh, you know, I was protecting the kids. The dog lunged at one of the kids." And m- my client was like, "That's absolutely not true. I guarantee the, the dog never lunged at anyone." Like she knows I love that dog so much, and that's why she did it.
6. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
7. JSJames Sexton
  Like, and she knows that the kids love the dog, and that's why I was gonna end up with the dog, and the kids were gonna wanna visit with me 'cause I had the dog. And like, so it... But again, I've, I've seen people do some, some really, really villainous things. It has not soured me on human beings. Like I, I don't... I mean, I think we're, we're a species that's capable of some really horrific things. I don't think I'm giving away a secret to, to say that out loud. But I don't, I don't think people do evil things because they're evil. I think they mistake it for happiness.
8. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. You know, in the, in the book you said, uh, "Find a way to stay together happily or find a way to split up happily. As I see it, those are your two best options." You then go on to say Trevor and Eileen are your worst case scenario. Can you explain what that means? Trevor and Eileen are your worst case scenario. What were you referring to?
9. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah. Well, I, in, that's, I think at the, the epilogue of the book. Um, it's a, a, a story called Cannibals. I called it Cannibals because it was basically two people that were just eating themselves, like, and eating each other, like just ruining each other's lives. Like, they, it was a worst case scenario of divorce. Like it's two people that fully weaponized against each other and s- and turned what should have and could have been a very simple, straightforward divorce into a three or four year protracted legal battle that cost over a million dollars in counsel fees on both sides, absolutely damaged their children terribly, um, and just was an emotionally awful experience for both of them, and both of them felt that they'd done absolutely nothing wrong and that it was exclusively the other person's fault. And Trevor and Eileen were, you know, I gave them those names. That wasn't their real names. Um, but it was based on, on a real case and two real people that had actually just concluded when I, when I finished writing the book. And what I was trying to say is, you know, I believe that you can either figure out a way to live happily ever after or live happily ever after separately. Like break up or stay together. Those are two hard things to do. Like it's, it's hard to break up and it's hard to keep things together. Like those are both hard things to do, you know? They both require a self-awareness. They both require work, you know? Like when you're married, you have one set of problems, but you don't have another. When you're single, you have one set of problems, but you don't have another. Like, it's really about picking the set of problems that you feel most comfortable with. But they were a horror story of all the things that you could do wrong and how if you make enough bad choices in the process of, of a divorce or the ending of a relationship, you can emulate everything of value around you. You can harm people you care about, and you can... You know, the Dalai Lama once said that anger is like reaching into a pile of hot coals to throw them at someone. You may or may not hit them, but you will burn yourself, and that's what the story of Trevor and Eileen was about. That's why I called it Cannibals because I felt like this was, they had eaten themselves. Like they'd eaten their own lives. They'd destroyed their own lives because they were so hungry for what they perceived to be justice.
10. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
11. JSJames Sexton
  That the result they created was the most unjust, awful result for both of them. Like they both burned off their hands reaching into the hot coals, trying to throw them at the other person. And meanwhile they, they could have just ended that relationship-
12. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah
13. JSJames Sexton
  ... and moved forward, and they would've had so much more blocks with which to build the next phase of their lives.
14. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. When, when you say it's a, it was a horror story of doing like all of the worst things imaginable-
15. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
16. CJCalum Johnson
  ... that you could do to someone-
17. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
18. CJCalum Johnson
  ... what are some examples of, of what you saw there?
19. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah. So, um, everything was the most important thing when it came to the litigation. So, you know, um, what was the price of the residence for the purposes of dividing it as an asset? Well, he said it was this and she said it was that. And instead of saying, "All right, let's come up with an average of the two or let's find a neutral expert to value it for us," he wanted to hire a partisan person who would say it was incredibly high. So she hired a partisan person who said it was incredibly low and then weaponized the lawyers for me to say why that was too low and for her lawyer to say why that was too high instead of being constructive and solving the problem and just getting a neutral person and saying, "Okay, that's the neutral person." You know, he had an affair. She told the children about his affair. They were in their early teens. They didn't need to know that, but now they were angry at their father and they were angry at themselves for being so angry at their father. But instead of saying to them, "Hey, your mom shouldn't have shared that with you and these are grown up issues and it's not something," he explained to them that the reason why he'd had an affair is that he and their mother hadn't had sex for three or four years, you know, and that their mother was very cold and unloving and that... Okay, again, like both of them think they're doing the right thing, but meanwhile what they're doing is absolutely twisting their children into knots and I mean, every single thing you could do wrong in a divorce, these people did. And, and most of it was against- The advice of their counsel. Like, 'cause a lot of what I do, look, at a negotiating table in a courtroom, I'm an advocate. I'm a, you're not gonna know what I actually think about anything 'cause my job is to further whatever position is gonna... So I've argued for alimony and against alimony. I've argued for exclusive possession of the marital residence and against it. I've argued both sides of every single issue you could possibly argue in a divorce case or a custody case. What I actually think is irrelevant. Like, that's not my job. That's not how the system works. But behind closed doors, I am very honest with my clients. Like, I will say to them, "You're not seeing this clearly. This isn't that important. You're gonna spend $10,000 arguing over a $12,000 bank account. If you win, you didn't win $10,000, you won $2,000 at best. And if you lose, you didn't just lose $6,000, you lost $16,000. Like, what are you thinking?" But sometimes people are so furious. Look, we've all been so furious that, you know, come on. Like, you think someone's mad at a wall and that's why they punch the wall? No, the wall's got nothing to do with it. You just need, you're angry. You wanna hit something. Like, and that's,
25:49 – 30:29
Do you want to be right or happy?
1. JSJames Sexton
  it's the same exact phenomenon, but, but in the context, again, of these incredibly important things. Like, think about what's at stake when you're getting divorced. What's in play? Like, look at it like a casino. What are you putting on the table? It's not a $25 chip, it's your house. It's your pension. It's your kids. It's your dog. It's everything you own, all. And how much of that are you willing to wager, you know, to be right? Right? To be right. I wanna win. I wanna be right. Like, well, you can be right or you can be happy. Which one do you want? And that's the thing a lot of people don't see and can't see when they're in it. Well, I, I can't tell you how many times I've said to a client behind closed doors, like, "Yeah, give up on that issue." Like, "We'll win. We're right, but we're gonna spend $50,000 arguing over it. Do you really wanna do that? You really wanna give me $50,000 so that you can win on the issue of whether Thanksgiving in alternate years should be Wednesday through Sunday or Wednesday through Friday? You really wanna give me $50,000? 'Cause listen, I'd eat turkey another day if I was you, but it's up to you. It's your money. If you want me to do it, I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna do that. I'm probably gonna win on this issue, but do you really wanna do it?" And I've had clients who are like, "No, I'm, this is, I'm sick of it. I, I don't want it..." And I really try to talk them out of it, and then I'm successful in talking them out of it, and they call me a year later after their divorce is over and they go, "Thank God you talked me out of that." And I'm like, "Yeah, it's okay, man. You weren't seeing it clearly." Like, whoever discovered water wasn't a fish. Like, when you're in it, you don't see it, and that's why we need each other. Like, we, we need each- There's nothing I'm saying that you don't know.
2. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
3. JSJames Sexton
  Like, the only wisdom on mountaintops is the wisdom you brought up there. Like, we all, none of us are experts in this. Like, this is, we all know this stuff, but we need each other. Like, we need each other to say it out loud, you know? Like, my, my favorite things is when I'm with a friend or someone who loves me, and they'll tell me something or I'll tell them something. Like, I'll be like, "Hey, man, you're too hard on yourself, dude. You gotta give yourself some grace. Like, come on, man. Like, you're doing..." And I'm, it's coming out of my mouth, and I'm thinking s- I'm talking to myself right now.
4. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah.
5. JSJames Sexton
  Like, it's si- Like, I need to take this same advice, and the converse is true. Like, all the advice you would give me about love, like, you have plenty of good advice you could probably give me about love, as much as I have to give to you, but do you hear it when you're saying it?
6. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
7. JSJames Sexton
  Like, do you see it? I don't think we do. I think when we're in it, we don't see it.
8. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm-hmm. It's that, um, it's that quote of like, "It's so, it's so difficult to see the," what is it? "The forest through the trees."
9. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
10. CJCalum Johnson
  Like, to have that sort of perspective.
11. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
12. CJCalum Johnson
  And even as you were speaking, I was thinking about the fact that these, like, bitter breakups, and we, and we talk about that in the beginning the intention was so pure.
13. JSJames Sexton
  Mm-hmm.
14. CJCalum Johnson
  Like, this was your person.
15. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah. And you were so excited.
16. CJCalum Johnson
  You were so excited. You were so happy around each other. You'd do anything for that person.
17. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
18. CJCalum Johnson
  And then at some point it got derailed and, and it's interesting because I think to myself, I'm like, "What were the early signs?" Right?
19. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
20. CJCalum Johnson
  Because it's, it's like you say, like, people, when people get divorced, it's like slowly and then all at once.
21. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah, yeah.
22. CJCalum Johnson
  And so everyone wants to focus on the all at once-
23. JSJames Sexton
  Right
24. CJCalum Johnson
  ... but what is happening in that slowly?
25. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
26. CJCalum Johnson
  And so from, from your experience, and I'm even curious, like, of people that you speak with in your daily life or even when they walk in your office-
27. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
28. CJCalum Johnson
  ... and you're like, "I can see the early signs."
29. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
30. CJCalum Johnson
  And so if someone's listening at home and they-
30:29 – 33:40
The 30 minute ritual that can prevent divorce
1. JSJames Sexton
  There's nothing. There's no course you have to take. There's no coach you have to pay. Here's all you have to do, is just once a week, once a week, that's it, once a week- Have a conversation with your partner. Make it a ritual. Make it something you do at a set day or time if you need to. Or if that feels too inorganic, okay, just make a point of once a week, put a reminder on your watch or on your phone. We have all these gadgets that track every single thing. We can't track this? Once a week, just say to your partner, "Hey, tell me three things I did this week that made you feel loved, and I'll tell you three things you did this week that made me feel loved." And then if you're really brave, say, "What are three things I could have done better this week when it comes to you and me? And, and, and what are..." I'll tell you, if we're brave enough, I'll tell you three things that you could have done better, right? And then if you wanna make it even fun, 'cause I like to end on fun things, "Tell me three things I did this week made you wanna have sex with me, and I'll tell you three things you did this week made me wanna have sex with you." Like, 'cause we're in a relationship. We're in a romantic relationship. We're not roommates. We're in a relationship. So if we're in a relationship, don't we wanna keep that spark? You know, don't we wanna keep that connection that's so big there at the beginning, right? So what does that take? Half an hour? Like, you don't have to be the most articulate person in the world. You don't have to be eloquent to just tell your partner, like, "What are three things you did this week? Oh, you know, you made that, that meal that I really like, and I always, whenever you make it, it always makes me like... 'Cause I know you know it's my favorite." You know? And, "Oh, the other night, you know, when, when I was watching the whatever and I fell asleep, you put away the blah, blah, blah." Like I, whatever. It's some- it'll be some dumb thing. Half the time it's something you didn't even notice you did. But it's like we're checking in. We're checking in on this thing. Like, and that doesn't take a lot, and it doesn't cost anything. And, you know, people will say sometimes, like, "Oh, well, it's like another thing to do." Yes. It's one more thing to do, but man, what could be more important than that? Like, you signed up for this person. There are eight billion people in the world, and you picked this one, and you can't give them that relationship 10 minutes a week of your time and attention? Like, so I think that single practice, even if you're far away from each other now, even if, like, you lost the plot, and now we're in a worse place, and now we're not as deeply connected, I'm sure that there's something that you could talk about that like, "Oh, you did this well."
2. CJCalum Johnson
  When you describe that, that, like, weekly practice-
3. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
4. CJCalum Johnson
  ... of what happy couples do, couples that stay in love, like the, the consistent weekly practice-
5. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
6. CJCalum Johnson
  ... the word that comes to mind for me is connection.
7. JSJames Sexton
  100%.
8. CJCalum Johnson
  It's like meaningful connection-
9. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
10. CJCalum Johnson
  ... that's being maintained over time.
11. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
12. CJCalum Johnson
  And then when we talk about Trevor and Eileen-
13. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
14. CJCalum Johnson
  ... on the complete opposite side of things-
15. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
16. CJCalum Johnson
  ... it's like this disconnect.
33:40 – 57:42
Is your relationship making you lose yourself?
1. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
2. CJCalum Johnson
  Right?
3. JSJames Sexton
  And, and not even just a disconnect. You're, you're right to, to, to recognize that connection is the key there. But, but it's not only did they disconnect from each other, they disconnected from themselves. And see, part of what I think is so useful about the practice of that checking in and maintaining that connection is I don't believe we just fall in love with the other person. I believe we fall in love with the person they make us or they make us feel like, right? Like anyone who's ever been in love, you know it's not just how this person makes you feel when you see them. It's like how you feel when you see yourself through their eyes, you know? Like, it's also about, like, connecting to yourself. Like, we forget, you know, the aspects of ourself that someone else might really appreciate because, you know, you're you. You're in there. I'm me. I'm in here, you know? So how am I supposed to... You can't fault me for not knowing 100% of my partner. So why don't we help each other see each other, understand each other, and understand ourselves in the process? Like, because I think that that is what a good relationship is, is it's also holding up a mirror and showing you, like, "Hey, is this-- Are you being who you wanna be?" 'Cause the things I'm asking of you in a relationship, am I willing to also give you the things that you need from me? Like, 'cause some of the things I need, you might not need. Like, we've all been in relationships where it's like, "Oh, I, I want more sex than they do," you know? Or, "Okay." And it's like, "Well, I don't owe you more." You're right. You don't owe me anything. I don't owe you anything. Nobody owes anybody anything. Like, we made a choice. You're born alone, you die alone. Like, we made choices to connect to each other. So I don't owe you it. You don't owe me it. But I, I signed up for this, so don't you wanna know what it is I think I want? And don't I wanna know what it is you want, even if what you want is different from what I want? And can't we find some accommodation in this economy? You know, this exchange of value? What's an economy but an exchange of value, you know? I want sex. You want affection and attention. Okay. Maybe I don't need as much affection and attention as you do, and maybe you don't need as much sex as I do. But don't we wanna stay connected to each other? Okay, so can I give you a little more than what I would need, and can you give me a little more than what you would need, and maybe we can both feel valued and loved and, and, and... You know, 'cause again, in every relationship, there's times where you're giving more than you're getting, and there's times where you're getting more than you're giving. But the question is, on a long enough timeline, is either of you really feeling taken advantage of? That's, that's the problem. But in every relationship, if you just do everything in this like, "Well, let's keep a tally," and it has to be exactly equal, like you're gonna-- It's a guaranteed recipe for misery.
4. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. It, it's, it's one of the things that I've realized, I think, uh, love is an act of service
5. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah. Love's a verb
6. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. It's, it's an act of service and it's... You're, like, you're in service to that person
7. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
8. CJCalum Johnson
  And there's points where, to your, to what you mentioned or to what you alluded to, something may not be hugely meaningful to you, but you know it means the world to that person
9. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah. And what a joy it is, at least to me, to like be able to give that to someone, you know? Like, one of the things I love best about being a man is the ability to provide for the people I love. I was talking to my son, who's, you know, around your age, and, and I was saying to him... He said something about like, "Oh, you know, Dad, thank you so much for that." It was something I'd helped him with, and he was like, "Thank you so much for that." And I said, "Son, you, like, you don't have kids yet. Like, you'll see someday, like, that's, that's my pleasure." Like, to give your kids the things that they need is, like, the greatest feeling in the world. Like, it's so lovely to, like, have someone love you and need you, and you're able to meet their needs. Like, it is, to me, the greatest joy, you know? So to have someone love me and to have someone look at me and say like, "Oh, I need this," or not- maybe not even have to say it. Like, that I just can look at this person and go, "You know what they need right now? Like, they need a hug right now," or, "Oh, you know, they need me to do this nice thing for them 'cause they're having a rough day, and that'll make them feel loved." Like, that's why I parsed the question of, like, asking your partner, "Can you tell me three things I did this week that made you feel loved?" 'Cause if I love you, I want you to feel my love. Like, I want you to feel it. Like, I can say I love you, but do you feel loved by me? Because if you don't, I want to know how. How can I make you feel my love? Here are the ways I feel your love for me. Like, what a gift to share that with each other. And by the way, I think we break in relationship and we heal in relationship. And I think we learn how to love by being loved, you know? And we also learn how to be loved by loving, right? Like, that's maybe the radical notion that teachers like Jesus and, and Muhammad, like, and the Buddha were here to, to teach, was this idea that love is a transformative power. Like, that I can, by loving you, I learn how to feel love. And by feeling love, I learn how to love. Like, and I... So, like, this is something that we can... 'Cause again, just, you reverse that spiral, which is, "Well, I don't... Why do I have to do that for you?" "Well, you don't have to do it for me." "All right, well, then I won't do it for you." Okay, now we're just going down to a dark place because we're just caught up in this idea of, "Well, what do we owe each other?" And that's not what this was ever about, what do we owe each other. It was about, how can I be of service?
10. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm-hmm. You know what? We talk about the, the story of, of Trevor and Eileen.
11. JSJames Sexton
  Mm-hmm
12. CJCalum Johnson
  And it's like the, the pinnacle of just, of getting all the things wrong.
13. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
14. CJCalum Johnson
  Like, you're, you're acting out of such anger and bitterness and there's, you know, there's, like, this stubbornness in love sometimes when it goes wrong. It's like, "This person did this to me, so the only motivation for me to do something is I just want it, them to feel what I had to feel."
15. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
16. CJCalum Johnson
  And so I'm curious for you because... And, and I could tell this even when we spoke last week, like, you have this, this love for your, your craft and, like, what you do as a lawyer-
17. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
18. CJCalum Johnson
  ... but then there's also, like, a, a human side and, like, a personal side to you-
19. JSJames Sexton
  Mm-hmm
20. CJCalum Johnson
  ... which I think is why your message resonates with people.
21. JSJames Sexton
  Thanks.
22. CJCalum Johnson
  And so with Trevor and Eileen, you mentioned that it should've been a simple divorce, but it turned out so bitter and over-
23. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
24. CJCalum Johnson
  ... a number of years, and they fought over every single thing, and they, they revealed every secret to the kids.
25. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
26. CJCalum Johnson
  I'm curious for you, James Sexton the human being-
27. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
28. CJCalum Johnson
  ... how does it feel when you end a case like that? When a case like that wraps up, is there, like, a, is there a drain to that?
29. JSJames Sexton
  You know, I, I don't personally feel a drain. I mean, when it ends, there's a relief that it's over because it was such an unpleasant thing to bear witness to and to feel you were in some way a part of. Although I, I move with great confidence that I did what I could to try to help. I represented the Trevor in that story. Um, and, and I, I did everything I could to try to protect him from himself and from her, and that's my job, you know? Like, I, I often say I represent the client, and I also represent the system. Like, I'm not the judge. I'm an advocate. My job is to give a voice to someone, whether they're a villain or a hero or some combination of both. My job is to tell their story as best I can and to zealously advocate. And I, I have to tell you, I told my son when he first became a lawyer, "The truth has a way of coming out. Sometimes despite my best efforts, it has a way of coming out." But I don't, um, I don't emotionally carry the weight of people's bad decisions or the things that other people do that are hurtful to people. I mean, there's no shortage of pain in the world and suffering in the world. So I think if we allowed ourselves to feel the full weight of it at any given moment, we would all... You know, 4,000 children die of starvation per hour. Like, if you let the weight of that- ... on you, how would we function? You know. But I also believe that we shouldn't be blind to that. I think a lot of the great ills of our society is that we don't, we don't pay attention to what's going on. We don't look at the world. We, we don't look at the toxicity and anger that's poisoning our personal relationships. And when we break up, we're so caught up in our pain that we don't look at the bigger picture, which is this person is human, I'm human, we both make mistakes, we've made mistakes. Maybe we're doing our best, maybe we're doing the best we could do at that moment. But rarely does a halo or horns fit anyone. We're all kind of a combination of those things.
30. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm. I, I think about the fact that you've been doing what you do for over 25 years.
57:42 – 1:06:42
Why we're terrified of being vulnerable
1. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah, and, and I've, I've said before that for people like you and I who are good at that performance, the big danger of that is it's, it's almost a way to not feel anyone's love. Because, see, I don't, I don't, I don't think that our biggest fear is that we won't find someone to love. I think our biggest fear is that we're not worthy of love. Like, that if someone really knew me, not the performance, not the Jim that's so good at doing the thing. Like, if they could see me, like the weak parts of me, the vulnerable parts of me, the stupid parts of me, the stuff I don't know, the s- the so-- 'cause there's so much more stuff I don't know than stuff I know. If they could see all of that, they couldn't possibly love me. They, the, how could they love all of that weakness, all that darkness, all that stupidity, you know? And I, I think what's funny is that we can see it in each other better. Like, like, if you said to me with the cameras off, you said, "You know, Jim, like, I'm actually, like, really nervous a lot of the time. I know I come off confident on camera, but, like, I'm really nervous a lot of the time, and, like, I feel so stupid. Like, and I, I'm doing well at this, but, like, I, I just feel like I should be doing better at it, and..." Like, I would give you so much grace. Like, I would give you so much love. I would be like, "Hey, man, come on, dude. You're in your... Like, you get so much ahead of you. You're doing so great at this. Like, don't be so hard on yourself. Of course you're scared. You know how scared I was when I was your age? You know how much more you are? You could make a million mistakes. You're still gonna be so great. Don't worry." But we didn't say that to ourselves. Like, we don't give ourselves that love, that grace, that affection. Like, and to me, like, that's what's so beautiful. Whether it's professional, like that story of the judge and me or that professor and me, or whether that's in the context of, like, a love, a romantic relationship, or even in the context of you and your brother or, or you and a friend, or you and me in this conversation, or, or us and the conversation we're having with the people that are listening to this conversation. Like, it really is just about, like, you know, like, I, I think we're worthy of love.
2. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
3. JSJames Sexton
  I really do. I think that's the hardest thing to see and admit, but I think that we are. I think that we're worthy of love, and we know it. We know it. We just don't see it in ourselves.
4. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
5. JSJames Sexton
  We see it in other people. We see other people in all their flaws, and we love them anyway. And, and that's not hard to see. What's hard to see is that even if I stopped performing, you'd still love me.
6. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
7. JSJames Sexton
  You, you might even like me more.
8. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
9. JSJames Sexton
  Like, you might even like me more. Like, when I first started doing media a few years ago, I did what I do in a courtroom. I was like, "Okay, what should I look like? What should I sit like? How should I be?"
10. CJCalum Johnson
  The performance.
11. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah. If you watch the first few episodes of me on Steve Harvey, that was the first real media stuff I did. I'm very like, "Hey, this is what Jim the lawyer would look like, and what he'd say and what he'd do." And it wasn't that good. It wasn't that authentic. It didn't feel like anything. A- and then when I did the first episode of Soft White Underbelly like three or four years ago, and I kind of was like, "Yeah, I'm just gonna like be me." Like it was an August day, it was hot out, I had my sleeves rolled up. Not to look cool, it was just hot. And I walked from my office to the W Hotel, which is where he was shooting. And I just remember like just being like, "Yeah, who the hell's gonna..." You know? Like he's got a big channel, but it's like none of my colleagues are gonna see it or anything. I'm just gonna like... I didn't know 10 million people were gonna watch.
12. CJCalum Johnson
  [laughs]
13. JSJames Sexton
  But I was like, "Yeah, I'm just gonna be me." And I was just me. And holy shit, like people were like, "That guy's great." And I was like, "Wait, that guy? No, no, no. No, no, no, no, that, that guy can do a great guy. Like just tell me what it is you need him to do, and he can do that guy." Like that's just, that's just me. That's not a, that's not, that's not me doing the thing. Like I can do the thing. Like just tell me what you need me to do and I'll do the thing. And the truth is like, no, what people liked is that they were like, "No, that, I think that's real. Like I think that's who that guy is."
14. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
15. JSJames Sexton
  Like he's scared, he's cocky, he's funny, he's humble, he's sad. He's all these weird, messy combination of things. Just like all of us. Just like every single one of us. And I think it taught me something in my, you know, 50th year of life. It taught me something that I, I wish I'd learned a lot sooner, which is like, really just be you.
16. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
17. JSJames Sexton
  Like it's the only thing you could really be anyway, and you're the only person that can be it.
18. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
19. JSJames Sexton
  So be it. Like whatever that looks like, don't be scared. Like don't be scared. Like just be you. Like show people the parts of you that, you know, they may not love. Show people the parts, as long as it's real and it's authentic, show it to them. Because you might be surprised how much people will appreciate and love you, and how much more you will feel that love. I have to tell you, when anybody comes up to me, and now they do three, four times a day people come up to me on the street and say like, "Hey man, I've seen your stuff. I like it so much." Do you know what it feels like to have someone say, "I really like you"? 'Cause it's me. Like it's not, I'm not Tom Cruise, like when they're like, "Oh, I love you." They're like, no, you love the words that somebody else put on a page and that I read really well.
20. CJCalum Johnson
  The performance.
21. JSJames Sexton
  Right, like I represent actors.
22. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
23. JSJames Sexton
  A lot of them, like they're, you know, you talk to them about your character that they did, and they're like, "I didn't write it. Like I read words on a page and a director and somebody else filmed it and lit it. Like I'm one piece of this little thing. Okay, I'm a good actor, you know? But like you don't know me." Somebody runs up to an actor and says, "Oh my God, I love you," it's like you don't even know me. You don't know anything about me. But like when you're you on camera, when you're being you in a public setting and someone goes, "I really like you," what a beautiful thing to have someone say because you can feel it. You go like, "Wow, you really do? That's cool. Thank you. I like you too. I don't even know you, but I really like the fact that you like me. You know, that means a lot to me." Like and if there's something in me that made sense to you, that makes me feel like I make more sense, so that's great. You know? Like and I, I think you have to be brave to be able to do that.
24. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
25. JSJames Sexton
  I don't think I coulda done it when I was in my 20s or my 30s [laughs] .
26. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah.
27. JSJames Sexton
  Like I think it takes some time to be able to be like, "Yeah, fuck it."
28. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
29. JSJames Sexton
  Like you gotta step on the rake a bunch of times and survive. You know? There, there's this saying that religion is for people who are afraid to go to hell, and spirituality is for people who've been there.
30. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
1:06:42 – 1:13:59
If you feel too broken to be loved, watch this
1. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah. Yeah, I would say, I would say the best first step is I think we are transformed by the act of loving. So I, I would say go out and radiate, go out and radiate love to other people. Like go out and radiate love to someone who you don't know and who's not, you're not expecting anything of it. Like there is something so powerful about going out and showing kindness to someone who you n- you, you don't know them and you don't owe them. And like just go out and s- and try, no matter how awful you feel, no matter how alone you feel, no matter how unworthy of love you feel. You have love in you to radiate outward, and go and radiate it outward. Because I, I, I think for me- That's what I found. I found that the first step of it for me, I volunteered for hospice. When I was in my early 20s, I started volunteering for hospice, and I would just be at the homes of people who were terminally ill, and I would just be of service. Like, "How can I help? Do you-- Can I mow your lawn? Can I go grocery shopping? Can I sit with your loved one when they're, you know, like, they're imminently dying and you wanna go out to the store, or you wanna go get your hair done, and you need, like, a minute 'cause you've been by this person's bedside and you don't want them to be alone?" And there was something about the ability we all have to radiate love to another person that put me very much connected to love and, and I could start feeling it differently and, and then I could start feeling it when it was given to me in a different way. Because there was something about also a person sort of looking at me and going, "Why are you doing this for me?" And the answer was, "Because, like, I'm here. I wanted to be of service. Like, and you'll, you'll do it for someone at some point. Like, pay it forward, you know. Like, you don't owe me anything. Like, I'm, I'm here 'cause I wanna be of service to you. Like, you deserve that. You're human. You deserve it." Like, there's something about that act that I think is the best first step because it reconnects you to love. It reconnects you to... Like I said, like, like love is a force like gravity. Like, if you can't feel it inside of you, feel it outward. Like, push it outward towards other people. Like, what makes you cry on the internet? I don't know about you. What makes me cry on the internet is, like, videos of, like, everyone in the auditorium not clapping at the graduation because a person has a sensory issue in the class, or the, the, the, the service person who comes home from a deployment and their dog greets them. Like, that makes me just weep like a child because what is it? It's just pure love. It's just this pure... Like, my favorite TV show of all time is Love on the Spectrum because it's just two neurodivergent people who have tremendous difficulties doing this thing that I am born phenomenal at. Like, I can communicate with anyone about anything well, and these people can't even have the most basic conversation. Like, they, they want a boyfriend or girlfriend so bad, and they're both on a date, and they're just sitting there going, "So, do, um... Yeah. It's-- So it's, uh... This is nice, isn't it? It's nice. Yeah, it's nice." You know? And they're... And, and meanwhile, like, you, you're watching this and going like, "Oh, come on. Like, just ask, ask her, uh, if she likes this weather. Ask her if she likes her soda. Like, so- oh my God, man, come on. Like, you don't have to be Proust. Like, just say something." And then they cut away to the individual interviews, and this is going terribly, by the way. And they're like, "How do you think it's going?" And they're like, "It really good. She's really nice," you know? Or, "He's really nice. He's really nice," you know? Because why? Because they just, they just want this. Like, they just wanna connect to this other fucking person. Like, and to me, like, how do you watch that and not just go, "Oh yeah, like the world's... Like yeah, it's full of all kinds of awful things, but man, it's so full of love. It's everywhere around us." Like, and so if you can't feel it inside yourself, like, f- feel it towards other people. Like, give it to, give it to someone else. Like, if your father didn't give it to you, if your mother didn't give it to you, okay, give it to someone else. Give it to someone else, like, 'cause there's a mother out there who lost her child, and there's a child out there who lost their mother, okay? So find each other. Find each other. There are, there are lonely people right now. Wherever you are listening to this or watching this, there is a nursing home in your town where there is an elderly person who lived an entire lifetime, who saw war, who saw loss, who saw all of these things, and they're by themselves, and they get wheeled into a room, and they sit there for a certain number of hours, and they get wheeled into another room. Go visit them. Go visit them. Spend an hour with them. Just spend an hour with them. Listen to them. Talk to them. Hold their hand. Read to them. Whatever. Like, like, do-- be of service and you, and you will begin to feel connected to this. You will begin to feel like... You will feel, I believe, you will be in the presence of God. Like, I think that's what... I'm not really a person of faith, but I was raised Christian and, you know, the most radical thing I think Jesus said was that the kingdom of God is within you and all around you. That's it. Like, it's within you and all around you. Love is within you and all around you. You just have to allow yourself to be open to it and to radiate it, and there are countless opportunities every day to do that. Countless, and they're tiny sometimes. Letting the person go in front of you. Letting the person who has two items and you have 12 go, "You go first." "No, no, no, that's... No, you go first. Go ahead." "Oh, thank you." Yeah. Look at that. Didn't that feel good? Like, it feels good to do that. Why wouldn't you do that? Like, to me- That's what keeps this thing moving forward.
2. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. I think to your point, there's, there's such a purity to love.
3. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
4. CJCalum Johnson
  And, and it's even why, uh, despite the statistics, despite the odds, and y- you even said it earlier, like, if you knew th- anything else in our life, if we knew the rate of failure-
5. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
6. CJCalum Johnson
  ... was this high-
7. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
8. CJCalum Johnson
  ... we would never attempt it.
9. JSJames Sexton
  No, never. Never.
10. CJCalum Johnson
  But there's like, there's a purity to love
1:13:59 – 1:18:38
Why love is painfully simple
1. CJCalum Johnson
  and, and I, I love the-
2. JSJames Sexton
  'Cause it's so simple. Like, and we make it so much more complicated. It doesn't have to be.
3. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm. And I, I love that point of if you want to be loved, first be loving.
4. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah. Yeah.
5. CJCalum Johnson
  Like, it, it's such a practical w- just-
6. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah. Yeah. But it, it's easy to lose the plot of that because I think when you're in a, as someone who's been in dark places in their life, I think when you're in a dark place, you feel contagious. You feel like my pain will start to infect other people.
7. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm-hmm.
8. JSJames Sexton
  My sadness will be felt by other people. The world is better without me.
9. CJCalum Johnson
  I break things.
10. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah. Yeah. I'm contagious. Like, I, every time I've ever felt awful, I felt contagious. And, and I, I have to say, again, I'm not religious, but, uh, so I don't believe in the devil. But if there was a devil, I, I believe quite firmly that the devil's principle function would be to convince us that we're so bestial that God couldn't possibly love us.
11. CJCalum Johnson
  Irredeemable.
12. JSJames Sexton
  Because once we convince ourselves that we're just awful, then we're capable of all kinds of awful things. 'Cause we go, "Yeah, I'm awful. Why wouldn't I do awful things?" But there's something terrifying about thinking, no, like, we have the divine in us. Like, we have love in us. Like, and we have love to give to other people, love that other people are starving for. Like, people are lonely, people are sad, people feel unloved, and you have love to give. You have love to spare. You may not have money, you may not have time, you may not have resources, you have love. We have an infinite capacity for love.
13. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
14. JSJames Sexton
  And, and, and the more we give of it, the more we have. And the more we receive of it, we, we're never full of it. Like, we just never e- we know this. This is a fact. It's not like if you have six kids, you know, like, well, you love each of them slightly less, you know? Like, no. Like, it's just more and more and more. Like, so if love, if our capacity for love is infinite like that, and we can radiate it outwards, and by radiating outwards, not only do we improve how other people feel, but we improve how we feel. Why wouldn't we do that? Why wouldn't we find the strength every time our heart gets broken, every time we lose something? Because we are losing everything all the time. Everything you love, you will lose. 100 years from now, no one you love will be alive, and no one who currently loves you will be alive, period.
15. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm-hmm.
16. JSJames Sexton
  Period. Like, so to love anything is insane in some ways.
17. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
18. JSJames Sexton
  Because it is to accept the inevitability of its loss. Like, you, you lose, the minute you love something, you start losing it immediately. Immediately. And yet we love anyway, and we should love anyway. Because to have the thing and lose it is worth it. It's much better than to have not had it.
19. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
20. JSJames Sexton
  So all of our lives are better when we're brave enough to love, but it requires bravery.
21. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah.
22. JSJames Sexton
  Like, we should be scared to love. It's scary. We should be scared. That's what makes it brave.
23. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah.
24. JSJames Sexton
  'Cause if you don't, it's not brave if you're not scared. Like, that's why all of this, like, red pill manosphere, all the, like, shit people talk about when men talk about love and talk about life and talk about strength and talk about, there is nothing more brave than love. There's nothing more brave and selfless than loving someone. Like, a true warrior fights because they have love in their heart for the people behind them that they're protecting, not because they have hate in their heart for the person in front of them. Like, a warrior doesn't fight because they have hatred towards the person in front of them. They fight because they love the people behind them that they're protecting. Like, and to me, that's what we should all be doing. It should all be about radiating that brave love outwards.
25. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. It's, it's, uh, one of my favorite quotes is, uh, "Better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all."
26. JSJames Sexton
  Never loved at all. Yeah. Yeah.
27. CJCalum Johnson
  You know what? Something else you said, you said, uh, we have an infinite capacity for love. And it, and it reminds me, there's a, uh, your dog, and, like, the, the story of your, of your dog.
28. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
29. CJCalum Johnson
  You even smile when I talk about it.
30. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
1:18:38 – 1:35:20
The dog that taught me to love again [EMOTIONAL]
1. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah. I mean, it's funny, that, that, that interview gets increasingly funnier 'cause he's still around. He's 16 years old, my dog.
2. CJCalum Johnson
  [laughs]
3. JSJames Sexton
  And, uh, I did an interview about three years ago. You know, the oldest dog I've ever had was 10. So I, I never, I never imagined that my dog, Caba, would live to 16. He's 16. And I got him when he was a baby. I got him when he was a little tiny puppy. Uh, he was a rescue. And, um, I did not mean to get a dog. I had a dog, Buster, and he passed away after a long battle with cancer and I said, "That's it. Never, never doing this again. Never getting another dog again. I'm, I'm never, I'm never, I never wanna feel that pain ever again." It hurts so badly to love something that much, something so lovely and selfless and just, it was nothing but love. Like, dogs are, you know, anyone who has a dog knows, like, they just love you so much, you know? And, and they want nothing of you except, like, to be rubbed and hugged and fed and that's it. Like, they just love you. They don't give a shit what watch you wear or how you did in court. They don't care about anything. They don't care if you have eight-pack abs. And, uh, and when he died, I said, "Yeah, I'm never doing that again." I'm just never doing that again. I'm never exposing myself this way again 'cause this hurts so much. Like, I'll never be okay. And I think like anybody who loses something that they love or someone that they love, I remember thinking I will never be able to go an hour without thinking about how much this hurts. And then at some point, I went an hour, and I remember being horribly guilty that like, "Oh my God, is the memory fading? Am I forgetting how much I loved him?" And then I would go a half a day or a day. I still don't think I've ever gone a day without thinking about Buster. But I swore I was never gonna expose myself to that again. And then a friend of mine, Steve, was, runs a rescue, and he said, "Hey, can you watch... I have a bunch of dogs coming up in a van from South Carolina for an adoption event. I just need somebody to watch a, you know, like a dog, but like I just need you to foster him for like literally two nights." It was 16 years ago. My sons were young. They were young teenagers, and I was like, "Yeah, you know what? I don't have the kids for the weekend. They're with their mom. I'll hang out with a dog for a couple of nights." It had been like two years since Buster had passed, and I was like, "There's no way I'm getting a dog. Like, I'm just, I'll watch him for two nights and that's it." And he showed up and he brought this pathetic little mange-ridden dog with ear worms, and he had all kinds of other things. He was taken away from his mom too early. He was just a mess. And he walked into my apartment and he peed immediately, just peed right on my rug, and I remember looking down and thinking, "Oh shit, I just got a dog." And that was 16 years ago. Like, and you know, I, I, I still can't talk about it without getting choked up. Like, I, I know, and I said this three years ago, that I know I'm gonna lose him. Back then, I thought it was gonna happen a lot sooner, but here we are, 16. He's still kicking, still eats his breakfast every day with a ravenous appetite. He's completely deaf now. He can't go upstairs. He has to be carried upstairs, but he can go downstairs, which doesn't make any sense to me. But he can't go upstairs, so I have to elevator him upstairs. And his whole face is gray. It used to be all brown f- face, just like my hair. When we met, we all had brown hair.
4. CJCalum Johnson
  [laughs]
5. JSJames Sexton
  Now we have gray hair. And, uh, you know, he t- he taught me something. He taught me that I could love that deeply again. I could be that vulnerable again.
6. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah.
7. JSJames Sexton
  And if you ask me right now, when I lose him, will I ever get another dog? I will tell you absolutely not. [laughs] Like, absolutely not, but I'm lying.
8. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
9. JSJames Sexton
  Like, I know I'm lying because what he taught me more than anything is that I have an infinite capacity for love, that no matter how much I lose, no matter how painful it is to love something and lose it, that having it and loving it and being loved by it is the greatest thing there is. That there is, there is nothing in my life I have accomplished that is as valuable and meaningful to me as loving that dog and that dog loving me, loving my sons and them loving me. Like, there, there is nothing I can accomplish in this life that will be as meaningful and wonderful as love is. So no matter how much we lose, whether it's divorce, whether it's death, whether it's a person, whether it's a pet, like I, I genuinely believe if we are brave and we are honest, we have an infinite capacity for love, and at the end of our life, the only thing that will really matter is how deeply we loved and how deeply we allowed other people to know us and love us.
10. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. It's so powerful and, and thank you for sharing that-
11. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
12. CJCalum Johnson
  ... so vulnerably. And, um, you know, it gets me emotional to talk about because I think about the, like the one more attempt, you know? I think about-
13. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
14. CJCalum Johnson
  ... the person that's had like that just heart-wrenching moment-
15. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
16. CJCalum Johnson
  ... or lost someone or had the breakup or a family member's died, and it's like in that moment you close yourself off to everything in the future.
17. JSJames Sexton
  And that's okay, you know? Like, I think, I think that's a part of it. Like, I think you have to. Like, I think you have to. Like, like, I'm so grateful to the version of me that was like, "No, I will never do this again." Like, so mad. Like, just mad. Like, mad at God, mad at everything, mad at this whole thing. Like, why? Why? Why would you make it like this? Like, it doesn't make sense, like, that something could feel so beautiful and you take it, it's, it's gone. Like, why would you do that? Are you cruel? Like, why? And yet, right, like, i- if it was forever permanent, like that would be a curse, wouldn't it? I mean, I wouldn't wanna live forever. Like, you watch all the vampire movies and you kind of go like, "Oh, that'd be so cool. Nothing could kill you." But then if you really think about it, you're like, nothing could kill you? Like, you're here forever. Like, I wouldn't wanna live forever. Like, it's only beautiful in part because it's temporary. All of this is temporary. Like, all of the pain, all of the joy, all of it is temporary, and I think when you truly let yourself accept that, you realize that, like, part of it is that, that anger- Like that, "No. Nope, nope. I'm not doing this anymore." And sometimes you just need to do that. Like, I don't know about you, like there's times where I just need to do that. Like there's times where I just go like, "You know what? Fuck this job. Fuck the whole thing. Forget... You know what? No, screw it. I don't care anymore. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care." Like, and okay, get it out. Get it out. Like, and maybe, by the way, maybe that's again another reason to have a partner, to have love.
18. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
19. JSJames Sexton
  Is 'cause that person can like let you do that and let you get all that out, and be like, "Yeah. Yeah, you know what? You're right. Yeah, you don't have to. We don't have to. You know, we don't ever have to. We don't ever have to get another dog. We don't ever have to do that. It's okay." Like, "Yeah, you're right. You know what?" And just meet you where you're at. And then when later on you go, "I feel a little better. Like I think I needed to get that out." Like, like, 'cause I have to tell you, like sometimes that's what I just need to do. Like sometimes I just need to just lose it, you know?
20. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah.
21. JSJames Sexton
  And then after I go, you know, 'cause I actually have, even in therapy, I've sometimes been like, "Well, what's the point? What's the point of even talking about all of this? Like, you don't have an answer. You know? I'm paying you how much per hour. You don't have an answer. Like, you can't fix any of this." Like I'm, "Oh, well, maybe talk about it and then by talking about it I'm gonna feel better." It's not how it works. Like there's, everything's still gonna die. I'm still gonna die. Like everything like, I'm, "Oh, we do have to talk about it, and now we'll feel better." It's not how it works. Like, it's just, this is stupid. The whole thing's stupid. And then you kind of go like, "Oh, I actually kind of do feel better." [laughs] Like, I do feel better saying that out loud. Like I do feel better freaking out and having someone be like, "It's okay you freaked out."
22. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm-hmm.
23. JSJames Sexton
  Like, "It's okay. It's okay to feel freaked out sometimes." Like, I have clients who sometimes will full on just lose it with me, and even yell at me or yell around me, and then they'll be like, "I'm sorry." And I'm like, "What are you sorry for? Like, that you're going through something horrible and you lose it sometimes? It's okay. It's my job, man."
24. CJCalum Johnson
  Mm.
25. JSJames Sexton
  "Like, don't worry about it. You don't have to apologize to me. Like, it's okay to freak out on me. I'd rather you freak out on me than freak out in court or freak out on your ex. Like, it's okay. Like, I'm man enough to absorb it. Like, it's okay, you know?" And I, I think we can be that for each other, you know? We can be that for each other. We all need that, I think, really, really badly. We don't wanna say it out loud, but I think we do.
26. CJCalum Johnson
  Yeah. It's like in, in, in many ways life is, is such a, it sounds cliche, but life is like this beautiful journey, and we can go from these moments of like peak frustration where we're so fed up-
27. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah
28. CJCalum Johnson
  ... and it's like this is never gonna work, and it, and it never works for me specifically.
29. JSJames Sexton
  Yeah.
30. CJCalum Johnson
  And it always turns out like this, and I, I should have known, and it's like this, you're so mad at the world-