Ex-Strategist Behind Hormozi: How To Build A $1M Personal Brand From Scratch! (People Obsess Over)

1. 0:00 – 4:51

   Intro

   1. CRCaleb Ralston0:00

      Too many of you are using ChatGPT to make your content, and you're not sounding like a fucking human. You're all sounding like the same goddamn robot

   2. CJCalum Johnson0:07

      Caleb Ralston, 16 years of building brands with 30 million-plus followers

   3. CRCaleb Ralston0:12

      In a world where everybody thinks that you need to constantly be saying new shit, the best way to build an effective personal brand is figuring out the-

   4. CJCalum Johnson0:20

      When you're working with Gary or Alex, what is the defining characteristic that like this is a forgettable brand, this is an intentional brand?

   5. CRCaleb Ralston0:29

      I have a Brand Journey Framework that I walk people through. Ultimately, you just need to figure out-

   6. CJCalum Johnson0:36

      Okay, so today's guest is Caleb Ralston. Quick context. So I flew down to Las Vegas to record this episode, and as I'm sitting on the flight, I'm thinking, "Where exactly do I want to take this conversation?" And so I start watching one of Caleb's videos. It's this six-hour masterclass on how to build a brand in 2025. Nearly 500,000 people have watched it, and one of the things that Caleb breaks down is the difference between a forgettable brand and an intentional brand. And honestly, it just struck a chord for me because I remember vividly what it's like to feel lost when it comes to marketing. You try all of the so-called expert advice, but still no one remembers your brand, no one engages with your content, and no one buys your stuff. I felt it, and it's dispiriting. So that's why we bring Caleb on the show. He spent over 16 years building brands, getting more than 30 million followers. He's the strategist behind the scenes that's helped entrepreneurs like Gary Vaynerchuk and Alex Hormozi build their personal brands. These are personal brands that have sold hundreds of millions in products. And so in this episode, we go step by step through the exact frameworks that Caleb uses to build highly profitable brands. And this isn't like the cookie cutter stuff. It's his secret sauce. Caleb even told me afterwards that some of the things he shared in this conversation, he hasn't shared anywhere else. And just one more thing before we get into it. Caleb and I wanted this conversation to be instantly actionable for you, so we put all of the exercises and frameworks that we mention in a workbook that you can download for free. So if you want that, just go to the link in the description, get it ready. Let's get into the episode. You're listening to The Calum Johnson Show. I'm sure you even ha- you've heard this in conversations of like, you know, mar- "I'm, I'm not a marketer," or, "Social media's just too saturated," um, "My story's not interesting enough," "The algorithm hates me." And so for that human being, as someone who has built some of the biggest personal brands that we know, what do you hope that they take from the conversation you and I are about to have?

   7. CRCaleb Ralston2:56

      A practical, no bullshit approach to building a personal brand that allows you to get closer to your goals, not further. Not one that is obsessing over trying to get a ton of views and go viral and hacking the algorithm, but one that actually takes the problems that you are already solving for your customers and allows you to do that at scale through content.

   8. CJCalum Johnson3:20

      Mm. You know what, you know, 'cause you, uh, you have such a great way of like simplifying things. And so for me personally, like I'd heard so many definitions of what a personal brand is, but when I heard your definition it clicked. So to begin, can you give that to people? Like, what is a brand?

   9. CRCaleb Ralston3:41

      Absolutely. Well, I believe that branding is just a pairing of things. Now, if you wanna do good branding, I think it is a intentional pairing of relevant things, and this is the key, done consistently. And if we do that over and over again, we get the byproduct of branding, which is brand, and that is when your audience inherently associates you with another thing, ideally that thing that you are intentionally pairing yourself with. The example that I like to use is Nike and Michael Jordan. The consistency is the key here. Michael Jordan didn't wear Nikes one night. He wore Nikes every fucking night of his career, and so he consistently was pairing himself with Nike. Or in this example, it was more like Nike was consistently pairing themself with him. And so then over time, the audience associated Nike with greatness in basketball.

   10. CJCalum Johnson4:42

       Mm. You know, when you, when you put it like that, it's like clear and it's obvious, but it's really like, it's, it's happening behind the scenes. Like as the

2. 4:51 – 9:56

   The biggest mistake with AI content (you sound like a robot!)

   1. CJCalum Johnson4:51

      customer, we're not even aware of that. We're not even aware of that. But we see the effects of it. Like we see that Air Jordan is a multibillion-dollar brand. I'm curious for you, and, and I said it right in the beginning of like 16 years you've spent building personal brands. You've worked with probably thousands of people, and so what for you though was the first moment when you saw like, this is actually what brand is, and this is the power of building a brand? Like what is that vivid moment in your memory where you felt that?

   2. CRCaleb Ralston5:26

      I think I wouldn't have been able to articulate it as clearly as I do now, but I remember sitting, uh, backstage filming a Gary Vaynerchuk keynote. And I remember he, he said something to the effect of... 'Cause he had been hearing a lot of people talking about, "I don't wanna keep saying the same thing over and over and over again," right? "I don't wanna sound like a broken record." And his, his statement just, I'll never forget it. He goes, "If you go to see Bon Jovi in concert, you want them to play 'Living on a Prayer.'" And I think it was that moment where I realized, oh wow, in a world where everybody thinks that you need to constantly be saying new shit, the best way to build an effective personal brand is figuring out the core principles that you wanna teach and share, and then figuring out the ... thousand different ways that you communicate those principles, right? And I believe, and we can go into this later, but I believe that the way that you share those over and over is through stories, right? And stories happen by being in it. If you're in the weeds of what you do, you're constantly gonna have new stories that are the same principles being told through different scenarios, different situations, different clients, different whatevers that you're working on, and that allows you to consistently share that message over and over and over again.

   3. CJCalum Johnson6:47

      Mm. You know, we- we're, we're gonna get, uh, into it and, like, how, like, the full blueprint for how someone can build a brand both today, but then even just with all the shifts and changes that we're seeing, whether it's AI or NFTs or crypto, like, whatever the thing is, building, like, a timeless brand throughout all of that. But you know what? I wanna, I wanna get personal for just a second, which is ... And I can feel it even speaking to you. You talk about this with so much passion.

   4. CRCaleb Ralston7:19

      [laughs]

   5. CJCalum Johnson7:20

      And, like, so much energy for it.

   6. CRCaleb Ralston7:22

      Yeah.

   7. CJCalum Johnson7:23

      16 years you've been doing this thing, and you still talk about it with that much energy. For you, why, why is this so ... It, like, feels personal. Like, why is it so personal? Why is it that you do what you do?

   8. CRCaleb Ralston7:37

      I think there's a couple reasons, but it's a really interesting question, and I'll, I'll tell you where my mind went instantly. It's a level of gratitude that I'm getting to do this as a living. Uh, as a kid, I, I was the classic kid that sucked in school. Like, in first grade I remember my teacher dumped over my desk, and all of my assignments, eight months worth of assignments undone, fell out. I just had not done them. And I just never really resonated with that. And as I started getting older, um, I tend to be, and as a kid I was this way, very anxious and thinking about the future. And I, at the age of 12, was like, "Oh my God, in six years I'm gonna turn 18. That means, you know, life happens. I get married, I have kids, I'm gonna have to figure out how to support them," all this shit. "I gotta figure out what I'm doing with my life," which is, like, a wildly ridiculous thought to have at the age of 12, but that was me. And because I was not doing well at school, I was like, "I don't know what I'm gonna be able to do." My dad w- had his own business. He was an entrepreneur. And so I always thought, "Maybe I'll have my own business, but I have no idea what it's gonna be about." And then a man by the name of Sean Cannell, uh, did me the biggest solid of all time and gave me this crazy book called Crush It by Gary Vaynerchuk. And I read it, and he talked about how people are gonna make money [laughs] online talking about the Smurfs on YouTube because that's their passion. And funny story, two years later, Smurfs movie came out. That was also wild timing, but regardless, I read that book and I was like, "Oh my God, this is what I can do" And basically just decided in high school, "I'm going all in on this." So I did homeschooling, barely continued barely doing any of the schoolwork, and just worked like 80, 90, 100-hour weeks on filming bodybuilding content. But I think the reason why I'm so passionate about it is 'cause I still feel like I don't ... like I don't deserve this almost. Like, I, I have something ... I've been given something that very few people get clarity on so early. By the age of 15, I knew what I was doing. I was like, "I know it's video. I don't know what industry that'll be in. I don't know how that'll take place. But I want to tell stories and connect with humans through video." And I think I just have this overwhelming sense of gratitude that I got that early on, and so I feel compelled to take it as far

3. 9:56 – 13:03

   The one lesson from Gary Vee that changed Caleb’s career

   1. CRCaleb Ralston9:56

      as I can. On the other side, I grew up consuming Gary's content and really didn't consume many of the other, like, internet marketing characters online. And so if you consume only Gary's content, you know, you come up with this guy who's not trying to shill out some shitty product. They're not selling some bullshit course. They're not doing any of that. And so that's what I thought personal branding was online. And then when I stepped out of Gary's world and saw that there was all of these characters that were creating a personal brand online in a way that I felt was, like, not integrous, like taking advantage of people that don't know any better online, charging them for bullshit communities or courses that don't actually deliver any real results but take money from people. And I started to see that, and I was appalled. I was shocked. And I think I started to get honestly really frustrated and, like, angry at it. And I feel like there's a certain mission that I have right now which is, like, my goal is to have a tiny-- I'm nobody, but if I can have a tiny .001% impact on shifting people's goal of building their personal brand around virality to building it around optimizing for trust, I think in doing that they will create better content, provide more actual useful value to their audience, and ultimately, not to sound cheesy, make the world better. And so I, I think that's kind of two reasons why I come across insanely passionate [laughs] -

   2. CJCalum Johnson11:29

      Yeah

   3. CRCaleb Ralston11:29

      ... when I talk about this.

   4. CJCalum Johnson11:30

      I love it. I love it. You know what? Let, let, let's just, let's get into it. Um, and it's funny 'cause I was talking, I was talking with Trevor, your, your creative producer, um-

   5. CRCaleb Ralston11:40

      The best.

   6. CJCalum Johnson11:41

      Yeah, the best, um, before this. And we were talking about that six-hour video that you have on your channel, How to Start a Personal Brand.

   7. CRCaleb Ralston11:50

      Yeah. [laughs]

   8. CJCalum Johnson11:50

      Six- over six hours long.

   9. CRCaleb Ralston11:52

      Insane.

   10. CJCalum Johnson11:53

       And right in the beginning of that video you said something that was so good, and I, I had to ask you about it. You go, "Right now you're on one of two paths. Path one is the forgettable brand. You post content randomly hoping that something's going to stick. People have no idea who you are or what you do, so they don't engage, and they definitely don't buy." However, there's another path. It's the intentional brand. This is where you own what people associate with you, and your content builds trust and moves people towards a buying decision. You know what? I also saw another video where you said, um, in the last year you've spoken with 2,000, like, business owners. And so I'm curious for you, as someone that just has such a variety and, like, a depth of experience in seeing different brands, what is the defining characteristic or difference that, like, this is a forgettable brand, this is an intentional brand? What to you is the thing that when you see it, you're like, "I know which one it is

4. 13:03 – 15:27

   Alice in Wonderland & your brand’s direction (powerful metaphor)

   1. CJCalum Johnson13:03

      instantly"?

   2. CRCaleb Ralston13:04

      The intentional brand has mapped out what their desired outcome is, AKA why the fuck are you building this personal brand? Can we swear on this? Is that cool?

   3. CJCalum Johnson13:12

      Yeah, go for it.

   4. CRCaleb Ralston13:13

      All right, groovy. Uh, 'cause I have a real tough time talking without it.

   5. CJCalum Johnson13:15

      [laughs]

   6. CRCaleb Ralston13:16

      I believe that a lot of people hear assholes like me online talking about how important it is to build a personal brand, and so they just jump into it to check a box.

   7. CJCalum Johnson13:26

      Mm.

   8. CRCaleb Ralston13:27

      And they never sit down and define, "Why am I doing this? What is the goal that I have?" Right? Because what ends up happening is they become ... An analogy that you may have heard me use that I love is in Alice in Wonderland, Alice is walking down this path, and she comes up to this fork in the road. Actually, there's multiple paths, but there's a cat in the tree at this fork, and it's Cheshire Cat. And the cat basically says, uh, or she asks the cat, "Which way should I go?" And the cat goes, "Well, where do you wanna end up?" And she says, "Uh, it doesn't really matter." And he goes, "Okay, cool. Well, then either way will take you there." And I think that's very indicative of how a lot of people build their personal brand. They're just making content and putting shit out there. They're using the whole classic thing of, like, throwing noodles at the wall and seeing what sticks. But they haven't defined, like, "Who am I trying to serve?" I think everyone building their personal brand should do the same thing, because if you do not do that, I would argue we could sit here, and you would not be able to articulate to me whether or not what you're building is working, 'cause you haven't defined what working is, what success looks like. And so I think it's not complicated. All it is, and I have a Brand Journey Framework that I walk people through, but ultimately you just need to figure out, "What am I trying to accomplish?" And then I like to help people reverse engineer from there, from that end state that they desire, to today.

   9. CJCalum Johnson14:51

      Mm-hmm. You know what? There, there's this quote of, um, "It took a lot of work to make it look that easy." And I think the thing is when you see great bra- brand builders, so you see, like, a Gary Vee, or you see Alex Hormozi, or you see what, uh, Nike and Phil Knight, or Steve Jobs and Apple, they make it look so effortless that, like, you don't see the, the strategy and the work and the thought that went into building something so intentional.

   10. CRCaleb Ralston15:25

       Yeah.

   11. CJCalum Johnson15:26

       And so, like, when you say

5. 15:27 – 19:46

   How to reverse-engineer your brand outcome

   1. CJCalum Johnson15:27

      the thing of, like, throwing noodles at the wall, I think that's a big part of it. And I think for the person listening at home, and I'm curious to get your perspective on this, I think sometimes it's difficult to feel that conviction that this is what I should be building.

   2. CRCaleb Ralston15:44

      Mm.

   3. CJCalum Johnson15:44

      This is what the ultimate end goal should be. And so I'm curious for you, because you've worked with so many different clients and built people from, like, no one knew who they were to the world knew who they were. And so when you start working with them, what is the ... If the step one is the ultimate, like, figuring out where you're trying to get to, but, like, what is the process that's happening behind the scenes to get to that answer?

   4. CRCaleb Ralston16:11

      Well, to be clear, that goal will shift and evolve over time, and that is okay. That is a good thing, right? Uh, the majority of people that I have worked for or work with now in client mode is I tell them, "What you think is possible right now and what you envision, it's gonna be far bigger. Like, what you believe is possible based on your personal brand in the beginning, it'll grow over time as you get more results." And so I think that desired outcome changes over time, and that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I just want to get crystal clear on what we want it to be right now. So for some people listening, it might be as simple as, like, "I wanna speak on more stages," or, "I want more inbound for my service that I offer to people," right? Or for a musician, "I want more streams to my music." Whatever it might be. It can be very, very simple and basic like that. But once you figure that out, I believe that you need to reverse engineer from there. So the next question that I ask people is, "In order for that outcome to happen, what would you need to be known for, for that to occur?" And then the next question is, "In order to be known for the thing, what would you have to do?" We get known for things not just by talking, right? We get known for things by doing, by action. You're not sitting here talking to me based on what I have said. We're having this conversation because of what I've done in my career, right? And so you want to do things in order to get known for the thing to get the outcome you want. And then the last question in the Brand Journey Framework, the fourth one, it takes us to today. In order to do those things, what would I need to learn, right? So an example that I like to use is, like, if I want to speak on stages to inspire young women to build their businesses and do it successfully as a woman in entrepreneurship, well, I would probably need to be known as a woman who has built a successful business. And arguably, probably not just my successful business; I've probably helped other women build their successful businesses. Now, what would I need to do in order to be known as that? I gotta build a fucking successful business as a woman, right? And then I gotta help other women do that. Then it takes us to today. What do I need to learn to do that? Well, you know, there's a lot of different skills and disciplines within building a successful business. There's marketing, there's HR, there's sales, there's recruit, all these different functions. And with all of those departments, there's all these different skills that you need to learn. And so what it does is it gives you a roadmap from today to your desired outcome. Now, what's cool is, you know, things change. New information, new plans. And so as you continue to grow, that can evolve or it can stay the same either way. But what I like to do is establish what that is, because if you figure that out, it gives you a decision-making framework for everything that comes up. It allow- like it gets down to the nitty-gritty, like being on your podcast lines up with our desired outcome. There are some podcasts out there that we do not say yes to because it does not line up with our desired outcome. So as basic as the four questions seem, the majority of the decisions that Trevor and I make on my personal brand come from that question being answered, and that is the decision-making framework and filter that everything goes through.

   5. CJCalum Johnson19:29

      Mm. You know what? Because you, uh, you mentioned The Brand Journey Framework, and it's funny 'cause I was, um, I was looking at the workbook that you guys created and, and just context for the audience. So you, you create this six hour, I don't even know, six hour and 22 minute video.

   6. CRCaleb Ralston19:44

      You nailed it. Yeah.

   7. CJCalum Johnson19:45

      Um,

6. 19:46 – 23:40

   The Brand Journey Framework (4 must-ask questions)

   1. CJCalum Johnson19:46

      nearly 500- like half a million people have watched it on YouTube completely free, and then you also create this like 45-page workbook that accompanies it.

   2. CRCaleb Ralston19:56

      Yeah.

   3. CJCalum Johnson19:56

      And the first one is The Brand Journey Framework, and so you just broke it down. But like where my mind goes, even as you talk through it, and just knowing for myself of like, when you're like creative and ambitious and entrepreneurial, it's not just that we have one outcome that we want. We typically have three or four different outcomes that like we would love to take place for our business or our brand or our reputation. And so I'm curious, when you work with someone and you've just started working with someone, is it important to narrow it down to one outcome? And what does that process look like? Okay, give me 60 seconds. If you've been sitting on an idea and you keep telling yourself, "Man, one day I'll start that thing," then this is for you. And so some context. When I launched my first business, motivation wasn't the issue. The problem was all of the mess. I had one tool for payments, another for design, another for shipping. It took me so long to navigate all of these things, and that led to procrastination. And so I tell people that procrastination ended my first business. That's the value of today's sponsor, which is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that helps you sell everywhere. They bring payments, design, shipping, and marketing together all in one place so that you can go from having an idea to a business without getting lost in the same way that I did. And here's the game changer: Shopify Sidekick. It's their new AI assistant that's built directly into the platform. I was using it earlier. And you can ask it to write product descriptions, even optimize your homepage, build a marketing plan for your business. It's like having a smart co-founder that's working for you 24/7. And so here's what you're gonna do. If you've got an idea and you're finally ready to make it happen, go to shopify.com/calumjohnson. That's shopify.com/calumjohnson. Thank you to Shopify, and let's get back to the episode. Okay, quick break. I'm gonna share with you how you can build your fully functional e-commerce store in just a few minutes. Before I get into it, let me just give you guys some context. I was reading this story about a guy called Lior. He started an e-commerce company at the age of 14. And as he was growing the business, he built tools to automate the routine tasks in his store. Those tools eventually grew into AutoDS, a software that is trusted by over 8,000 Shopify sellers, and they're also sponsoring this episode. And here's the cool part for you guys listening at home. AutoDS just launched Build Your Store AI. It uses AI to create a fully functional optimized Shopify store in just a few minutes. So I'm talking about an optimized store with winning products and ready-to-sell pages. And so if you're looking to build your e-commerce store and want to save time and actually grow, go to the link in the description. And when you use that link, you'll get access for just $1 for 30 days. Thank you to AutoDS for sponsoring this episode, and let's get back into it.

   4. CRCaleb Ralston23:20

      I love this. I'm so ... Dude, I'm so glad you went here. Um, I'm not gonna give any rules. I'm gonna give guidances here 'cause, uh, there's so much nuance, and that's why I, I love making content and I also hate making content at the same time-

   5. CJCalum Johnson23:34

      Yeah

   6. CRCaleb Ralston23:34

      ... because it's like I can't take in the individual nuances of everybody. But what I recommend at scale

7. 23:40 – 25:14

   Why one clear goal beats chasing 10 outcomes

   1. CRCaleb Ralston23:40

      is, yes, you can do The Brand Journey Framework for every outcome that you want. And I'm a brand guy, so I'm only speaking about this within brand, but I imagine the same approach works for anything you want in life, as a side note, but not my, uh, area of expertise. But I believe, yes, any sort of outcome that you want, you can use The Brand Journey Framework to accomplish that. But in the beginning when you are starting off, it is my opinion that you do wanna pick one and you wanna be more focused, just like, and I'm sure we'll talk about this in a little bit, when people are in the zero to 100K, like their audience size, I recommend, and this is contrary to what maybe people have heard me say or, or a little bit more nuanced to it, I believe people should niche down and be more specific. And so We'll talk about that in a second, but when it comes to your desired outcome, I do think having one clear goal that you're aiming for is really good to start because it's less overwhelming, and it's less confusing to the audience. Not, not saying that you're always articulating what your goal is to the audience in every piece of content, but I think that if you, if you pick too many outcomes and too many goals, you start spreading yourself too thin, and you won't accomplish any of them. So I ... I mean, you'll notice it's kind of a theme with me. It's the same with my platform strategy. Like, I like one platform at a time. I'm not trying to be omnipresent everywhere, right? Like, I personally like to take a realistic approach. I've worked for people that I would call, in the most affectionate way, mutants. They're next level. I'm not. I am human. [laughs] And so I build an approach that takes into account

8. 25:14 – 29:13

   The Brand Story Framework (3 steps to stand out)

   1. CRCaleb Ralston25:14

      my humanity and a realistic approach. And so yes, in the beginning, start with one, and over time, that can evolve, and it can ... You know, like for example, with me right now, mine is business-related. I guarantee in the next year I'm gonna have something about some new secret project that I wanna work on, or more speaking, or more podcast appearances, or something like that, and I'll create another one, and then we'll start attacking that. But I wanna get progress and, and momentum in one area first, get that rolling, and then we can start to branch somewhere else.

   2. CJCalum Johnson25:52

      You know, it's funny 'cause, uh, when I, when I first, uh, left my job and started doing the show full time, uh, one of my mentors called me and he said, "Your only goal in the beginning is that you just ... You set things up so that you can keep doing the thing, so that you have longevity, that you can keep doing it." And so I think that that's actually a really good way of filtering. Um, you know what? Here's where I wanna go next. The Brand Story Framework. Can you ... 'Cause that's actually the ... That's even in the workbook. That's even where you go after the Brand Journey Framework.

   3. CRCaleb Ralston26:27

      Ooh.

   4. CJCalum Johnson26:27

      Why is that? And then what is the Brand Story Framework?

   5. CRCaleb Ralston26:31

      I believe that your story is your differentiating factor. Uh, we were talking about AI and everything like that. AI has the remarkable and all of that on lock. Where we have an advantage as humans right now, in my opinion, is relatability, and I believe that relatability happens through storytelling. You gave two great examples of two artists that are really relatable to their audience, Taylor Swift and Drake, right? And you were talking about how much you love Drake and how, like, people will use Drake lyrics as their captions on Instagram because even though his life isn't relatable, somehow he makes his music relatable, and it's through storytelling, right? And I think, you know, there's different levels of depth with storytelling, but the best version of this is the most vulnerable version of it, right? Like, Taylor Swift is unbelievably vulnerable in her storytelling, and I would argue that's the reason why she has the position in society and with her fans that she does, because of that relatability factor. But that only comes through storytelling, right? And in, in my world, I'm in the education space, and so a lot of us, we get biased towards just providing information. Here's where the problem lies. Nobody makes changes just purely off of information, okay? They need to, back to what you were saying ... Man, we got so many tie-ins from our, our pre-conversation. Like, it, it comes down to them being able to see themself in your story, and then it breaks their belief that they previously had about how they couldn't do X, Y, or Z, and your story allowed them to see a new world where this was possible, right? Gary's storytelling, telling about how he built up his brand through Wine Library TV and built an online wine store when this was not a thing through YouTube content, gave me the belief that I could make something of myself via content online. It wasn't stats. It wasn't information that he gave me. It was the story of his experience, and that changed my belief. And so I believe that storytelling is unbelievably important for that.

   6. CJCalum Johnson28:51

      I think what you just said was so good, is I think anyone that's put content out online or even tried to start a business, anything, we've all had that experience where you build this thing that you care about so deeply and so much, and maybe you're even really knowledgeable about it, and you put that out into

9. 29:13 – 34:22

   Find your contrarian belief (the secret sauce*)

   1. CJCalum Johnson29:13

      the world, and it's like a black hole. Like, no one cares.

   2. CRCaleb Ralston29:18

      Yeah.

   3. CJCalum Johnson29:18

      No one cares about the thing that you're putting out, and I think it gets to this thing of, like, it needs to hit and resonate with people on an emotional level. And so the Brand Story Framework, you actually lay out this process of how people can, like, figure out what that looks like for them and their brand. And so I took this directly from the workbook. You said, "This framework will help you craft a brand story that is timeless, evolves over time, and stays relevant with the people you want to buy from you." And then you say there are 3 steps. Step number 1, the catalyst.

   4. CRCaleb Ralston29:54

      Yeah.

   5. CJCalum Johnson29:55

      What do you see that others don't? Step number 2, the core truth. What's the belief that you have that others do not? And then step number 3 is the proof. How do you reinforce that identity every single day, not only through statements, but actions? You know, it's so ... I, I, I wanna go deep on that. Step number 1, the catalyst. What do you see that others don't?

   6. CRCaleb Ralston30:23

      Thanks for reminding me on what the framework was. [laughs] Uh, yeah. I believe that there are really, like, three different levers that you can pull to stand out, and the second two are really great, they're awesome, but the most important one that has the most amount of outsize returns is your contrarian belief. And I believe this is the catalyst. This is when you see something in your industry that a lot of people believe to be true that you fundamentally disagree with. So for me, for example, uh, the majority of my counterparts and people that talk about the shit that I talk about, they talk about going viral. That's a huge thing. That's the majority of the industry, and I think going viral is great. I have no issue with it. I just think it is not a healthy way to build a personal brand optimizing for virality. I believe you wanna optimize for trust. And so that's something that I see in my space that a lot of people are preaching that I think is fundamentally wrong. Another example is the man, the myth, the legend, Gary Vee. He came onto the scene in a time where Fortune 500s and 100s, a lot of them still are doing this today, but at, at scale at the time, all of them were spending their money on TVC, billboard, uh, direct mailers, all these traditional forms of media. And he's like, "Hey, guys, there's this, like, crazy thing out there called Facebook, and I think it's gonna be a big deal," right? Wildly contrarian take. He saw what was in the industry, what everybody was saying, and he had a wildly different take. Another example of this, not on the personal brand side, is Savage Fenty, Rihanna's, uh, lingerie brand, right? They did an amazing job of looking at the market and realizing, you know, Victoria's Secret dominated the market, and they marketed to, like, one body type, and that's it. And they decided, "Okay, we're gonna go with body-type diversity. We're going to pair ourselves to show that women of all shapes and sizes should be able to buy lingerie." And so what do they do? In all of their imagery, they show that, and then they become worth over $3 billion in, like, less than three years. It's, like, fucking crazy. They grew so fast. And I believe that's because they spotted something in their industry that they believed differently on, and they felt they could have a different impact on. And so what I encourage people to do is either at a really high level, it might be something big like what I'm talking about, or it might be something small. It might be something basic like, uh, you know, a videographer. Everyone says that you should be using zoom lenses for vlogging, and you believe that it's just better to do the craft with prime lenses. And so that is your take, and that's what you're bringing to the industry, and that's what you're doing. Okay, cool. I gave a wildly niche, uh, example there.

   7. CJCalum Johnson33:17

      [laughs]

   8. CRCaleb Ralston33:17

      All the videographers, shout out to you. Like, that is what I believe causes people to stand out the most. I believe this more than your thumbnails, your titles, your hooks, like, even the ideas of the individual pieces of content itself. I don't believe that's why brands blow up in a powerful way. I think people get views that way. But a strong personal brand, I believe, is established by seeing this thing in your industry that you want to see done differently and then, like we said earlier, over and over and over sharing that. That's why every podcast, every piece of content, I try to push optimize around trust, not virality. It's something that I wanna be known for. So 100%, like, i- if, if nothing else, actually, from this podcast episode, if literally nothing else, if you walk away and you figure out what you believe differently about your industry... And the key is don't make something up. Don't be contrarian for contrarian's sake. It needs to be something that you believe at your core that,

10. 34:22 – 37:50

    The exercise: flip industry clichés into your unique truth

    1. CRCaleb Ralston34:22

       like you articulated earlier, when you speak about it, there's a certain level of passion, whatever way that comes through f- with you, but there needs to be a passion and conviction around it. It needs to be real. But if you figure that out, that is your differentiating factor more than anything else.

    2. CJCalum Johnson34:38

       You know what, let, I wanna, I wanna get super tactical for a, for a moment, and, and, and I agree with what you said of, like, if the one thing that people take from listening to this conversation is figuring out what their contrary belief is, like, we've done our job just based purely off that. And so one of the things... Like, take me behind the scenes for a second. When you're working with Gary or Alex or any of these clients that you're working with, what does it actually look like figuring out what the contrary belief is? 'Cause here's the thing that I'm aware of with humans, and we're all like this. The majority of humans, we wanna fit in, so a lot of our beliefs and thoughts are actually pretty similar to, like, all of the people that are around us. They're not contrary. And so what does that process... Like, is it you have a pen and pad out, and you're just writing things down? Like, how do you figure out-

    3. CRCaleb Ralston35:31

       To be clear, I learned this from Gary. I never did this with Gary.

    4. CJCalum Johnson35:34

       Mm.

    5. CRCaleb Ralston35:34

       I got this from him.

    6. CJCalum Johnson35:35

       Okay.

    7. CRCaleb Ralston35:36

       Like, and, and I, I wouldn't say that he, like, does this as a process necessarily. I think that man is so in it that this stuff just comes second nature to him. [laughs] It's just inherent, right? Um, it, it's different for everybody. I, I, I don't have a one-size-fits-all process on this. Um, I typically like to, uh, do it more, [laughs] for lack of a better term, sneakily. Uh, and the way that I like to do it is I like to think of what are the typical tropes that people say in this industry and... or typical s- statements, right? Tropes, m- some people might not know what that means. Basically, like, uh, one in my world is all press is good press. That's something that's been said for a fuckload of time. Like, so many people have been saying it for a long-ass time, and it's something that I, if you were to just, like, say it, dude, my hair stands up immediately. I get, like, angry when I hear it. And so whatever industry they are in, I will look to, and some of them I already know, some of them I have to research, but I'll look, what are the people online saying? What are the typical beliefs they're all pushing? And then I just- Throw it out there. We'll be at dinner, I'll be like, I'll just throw it out there like it's a statement that I believe. And then I'll see, do they unpack it or do they agree? And over time, and usually, uh, this isn't just like a one sit-down session. It's like a couple of different dinners, going for a walk, whatever. I like to just do it casually, rather than some like hardcore exercise, which also is very effective, but typically individuals at that level don't have time to sit down for three hours and do like a brand positioning exercise, right? And so you gotta like trickle it out over time. But I just like to pose the typical beliefs and then see what is their take on it. So something that you mentioned earlier at the very beginning when you were posing who this, uh, episode is for, you were saying that they probably have reasons why they don't wanna make content. You know, they see people saying stuff or it's cringe or whatever. Like, the way that you could do this without me or without having a content director is what I would do is I would just make two columns. On the left side, you're gonna write out all the things that people in your industry say that you fucking hate and disagree with, or the things that they do that you find cringe or like, like, ugh. Whether it's

11. 37:50 – 40:09

    The power of polarizing beliefs

    1. CRCaleb Ralston37:50

       you think it's not ethical or you're just like, "God," like, "I would never wanna be the real estate agent dancing and pointing to text on screen." Write that on the left side, and then this is where it gets wildly complicated, so like stick around here. On the right side, you're gonna take each one of the things on the left and write out the opposite, and that's it. And then that's what you say and do. And this gives you a... This gets you basically to third base to help establish what that contrarian belief is. 'Cause what you've just done is identified all the things that you disagree with in your industry.

    2. CJCalum Johnson38:24

       What you're saying is true. Like, think about Steve Jobs or like, uh, a lot of the people that we see that have had this incredible influence and brand and are memorable, there was something almost a bit polarizing, like different about the way that they went about things. Why is that so powerful for us as humans? Like this contrary belief and then someone that reinforces it time and time again. Like, why is that process such a powerful one?

    3. CRCaleb Ralston38:56

       If you were to give me a white piece of paper and I put a Sharpie dot on that, that's where your eye is gonna go, 'cause it's different than everything else. Plain and simple. Like, that, you [chuckles] if you come onto the scene and say the same shit as everybody else, then you only have two other ways to distinguish yourself, in my opinion, which is delivery and wrapping paper, and we can talk about that if you want, but those are the two other ways that you can do it, but those are far less effective. I think they are useful and they work, but they won't cause you to have the outsized return that a contrarian belief will have. Now, the key here is, is like not everybody's gonna have that, right? But I think at a granular level, we could find that for everybody. It might not be some big industry thing like we were talking about. It might s- be something really small, right?

    4. CJCalum Johnson39:46

       Mm. You know what, the, the third step in that process, you s- the proof, how do you reinforce that identity every day, not only through statements, but actions? You know what, when I, when I think about some of the people that you've worked with, and it's like genius in a way, right? Because not only do they have this contrary belief, they have figured out how to speak about

12. 40:09 – 45:20

    Gary Vee’s “Document, Don’t Create” explained

    1. CJCalum Johnson40:09

       this thing in like a multitude of ways that are all entertaining and captivating day after day after day, does not become boring. Like, how, what does that look like, that process of actually figuring out, okay, here's the contrary belief, but now this is how we're gonna show up day after day and actually execute it?

    2. CRCaleb Ralston40:32

       This is Gary Vee's Document, Don't Create.

    3. CJCalum Johnson40:34

       Mm.

    4. CRCaleb Ralston40:38

       I'm gonna give a quick little filter for people to decide on who they should give their money to online that is an educator. If they are not documenting being in it, they're not an expert. They're lying to you. The people that are experts are still in it, and by being in it, it allows you to continue to tell those stories over and over in an entertaining way, in a new, refreshing way, in a relevant way. Gary is very, very in it, and so he is constantly able to tell those stories. He's not having to create new scenarios. He's just documenting his. Now, one thing that I think a lot of people misunderstand about Document, Don't Create is they think that it means that you have to have a videographer follow you around, but it doesn't. It means that you need to be documenting the things that are occurring, not necessarily in real time. So it might mean sitting down in front of the camera and doing a direct-to-camera video where you talk about the conversations that you had with your team over the last week. Uh, an interesting moment with a client where you learned something new, right? That is how you do this, but it's not possible to do that if you retire and just start selling courses. [laughs] Like, that no longer becomes a thing, 'cause you're not in it. So the moment that that person stopped being in it, that's where their learnings and ability to teach ended.

    5. CJCalum Johnson42:04

       Mm. You know what's so good? It's like, 'cause I, I love that idea of getting to the core truth, of like thinking about your brand in that way, 'cause it, back to what you said earlier, it makes sure that the, the integrity of your brand maintains, 'cause there's like this core truth that's anchoring it. I guess the thing is, it's like, once you have the core truth, and this is the point that you just made, which I love, is you actually have to live it. You have to live the core truth. But then the, the final piece, and in some ways this can be the most elusive, and this is just my experience, is actually believing that that is interesting enough to share with people

    6. CRCaleb Ralston42:45

       Hmm

    7. CJCalum Johnson42:46

       So, like, is the team meeting that I just had, me talking about that to camera, no one's gonna watch it. No one's gonna ... That's not gonna be interesting to anyone else. Like, why would they care about me and my story? And I think that, like, a lot of also what makes these, uh, personal brands stand out is, like, they believe what they're doing is interesting and people should consume it. But that can be very difficult. I feel like-

    8. CRCaleb Ralston43:10

       I disagree

    9. CJCalum Johnson43:11

       ... you ... Go into it.

    10. CRCaleb Ralston43:13

        I think the majority of them, not all of them, but a lot of them actually don't think that what they're saying is interesting, and h- here, it's the curse of being an expert. What you share with your audience is inherently going to be boring to you because it's basic. And so this is why, and I, you know, [laughs] we could go a million directions with this, but what I will say is I, I love solo creators, and I root for them hardcore. And I try as much as possible to give tips for it, but it's why I don't make a lot of content for solo creators 'cause I don't think that's the best way to do this. I believe having a team is unbelievably helpful for this. Trevor is who helps me know whether something is interesting or not. For me, a lot of it is boring and basic, you know? Half of what I've been putting out this year has been me having a little bit more time in my life to be able to sit down and go, like, "What the fuck have I done for these 16 years?" I do it inherently. I, I have these things that I just, like, naturally do, but how do I now look at, like, what I naturally do and make it a process to be able to teach to people, right? How do I scale it? And I first encountered that when I was building a team for the first time. But I, I look to Trevor for that. Like, Trevor informs me whether or not something was ... And he'll tell me. You know, he'll tell me if, like, "Nah, that felt a little bit more basic. Like, ah, no, that's not good." Or he'll be like, "Dude, I've never even heard you say that before." Right? And that's where it comes down to, like, filming environment of capturing content. When Trevor is behind the camera, if I'm saying something that he likes and thinks is good, he's nodding his head so that I know that it's interesting, right? And so that's why I like to have visual reinforcement that what I'm saying is interesting. And so I believe that it's, it's imperative. M- I encourage most people in the 0 to 100K audience range, you don't need to bring anybody on your team. You can do that solo for sure. But, like, in this next phase of 100K to a million, like, that's where you start looking at, like, "Man, I need to bring on a team member, not only to, like, scale this, but to be able to show me that, like,

13. 45:20 – 54:27

    The 70/20/10 rule for testing content (and loving the flop)

    1. CRCaleb Ralston45:20

       yeah, this is interesting."

    2. CJCalum Johnson45:23

       You know, what you just said I just think is gonna be such an important unlock for certain people, which is, like, the reason at times why you might think about posting something and you're like, "Oh, but no one would find this interesting," like you have that limiting belief, is because you're the expert who is the most familiar with that. And so to you it is kind of boring 'cause you've seen it so many times. And so, like, being able and having the teammate, the creative director, maybe it's even, like, the family member who's watching you do it in the beginning-

    3. CRCaleb Ralston45:54

       100%

    4. CJCalum Johnson45:54

       ... or the wife or the spouse, whatever it is.

    5. CRCaleb Ralston45:56

       Yeah, your daughter or your son. Yeah.

    6. CJCalum Johnson45:59

       Yeah.

    7. CRCaleb Ralston45:59

       And, and the other thing too is when you have that person though, like Trevor gives me good feedback loops, right? So we post the content, and then he sends me screenshots of comments of people calling out the moments that were most impactful to them so that I know the audience found usefulness and they found it interesting, right?

    8. CJCalum Johnson46:20

       Mm.

    9. CRCaleb Ralston46:21

       And so I don't have to, 'cause, and this comes down to something that I talk about a lot, which is, you know, quality, which is a subjective thing. Like, what we're ultimately saying is if we're saying it's not interesting, we're saying, "I know what quality content is. This is not quality." But we as the creator do not determine what quality is. Quality is determined by our audience, not by us. And so in knowing that, you should just put that shit out and find out if it's interesting or not. And that's what our whole first year of content is, is testing. We're putting shit out to find out what does the audience deem as quality and find interesting, and then in 2026, we will scale that.

    10. CJCalum Johnson47:05

        Hmm. You know, I, I, I want, I wanna double-click 'cause w- we're gonna move on to storytelling, which I absolutely love. But before we do, I wanna, I wanna double-click into that because when we talk about building, like, a timeless brand, an iconic brand that, like, not only does it thrive today, but also in a world of AI or, like, whatever the new technology of the day is, it also thrives in that. You spoke about testing and learning, experimentation.

    11. CRCaleb Ralston47:33

        Yeah.

    12. CJCalum Johnson47:35

        Can you ... I wanna make this so, like, real for people. If people r- what is the importance of really embracing experimentation and learning, and what does that even look like? Like, what is gonna be the impact of someone's brand if they fully embrace experimentation?

    13. CRCaleb Ralston47:56

        You, if you do it at the highest levels, you become the brand that other people are copying rather than copying the other brands. So done perfect- or done to perfection, it is that ultimate goal. Everyone's copying you. I think the mistake a lot of creators make right now is that we have, and this is really good, so I want it to be clear. I'm saying this as a good thing, but we have become wildly obsessed with data, which is good. The problem with data is y- it's so much harder to have wild innovation occur when you're making decisions purely based on the past. And, and it's not necessarily that the past can't inform innovation. I'm not saying that. It totally can. It absolutely can. But Rory Sutherland said something wildly interesting on Modern Wisdom like a couple months ago, maybe a year ago, and it just, like, stood out to me. He was like We are making assumptions on data by looking at the past and assuming the future will act the same way, as the same as the past. And so data is ultimately making decisions off that, at some level is still an assumption [laughs] which is very interesting to me. And so I, I like to use, uh, the 70/20/10 framework, and so 70% of the content that you post I believe should be stuff that you have data to inform you that it's gonna work. It's the shit that is working and has been working for you for the last three months, and so you're gonna continue doing it. I think the next 20% should be you taking that 70% that you know is working and doing micro tweaks to it. Little tweaks here and there. Nothing drastic. That last 10%, this is where a lot of the teams that we're working with right now, they come to us and they haven't been working on this last 10%, which is trying completely new shit. Like wildly different things. Yes, informed by data, but ideally this is something that makes you pretty uncomfy. So for us, for example, uh, we're very new and early in creating content for me, but the 10% came out in a video that we made which is, I think it's titled If You're Struggling With Making Content Please Watch This. Something like that. And it's me, [laughs] it's me talking about all the different, like, mindset shifts that I had to go through when going from being the guy behind the camera to being somebody who is more in front of the camera now. But that takes place over the course of a motorcycle trip. And [laughs] we had no reason to believe that this would work, right? The two previous videos that we had done that were very successful compared to what we expected were two direct-to-camera, like, sit-down videos, right? One was the 16 years video that you mentioned. It was like 54 minutes. And the next one was a six hour and 22 minute course on YouTube for free. Nothing data-wise informed us that we should try this. But I want to figure out the different ways that we can communicate, the different storytelling ways that we can communicate our principles, our beliefs to our audience. And so that video was a 10% test, and it did really well. And so we're actually going to test another one. Uh, literally we're filming it next week actually. Very similar storytelling style and everything, and we're going to ... Now, that fell into the 70%, so now we're gonna make a 20% adjustment. Does that make sense what I'm saying? So it w- it started at the 10%. Now-

    14. CJCalum Johnson51:24

        And you got validation from it-

    15. CRCaleb Ralston51:25

        Exactly

    16. CJCalum Johnson51:26

        ... so it came to the 70.

    17. CRCaleb Ralston51:26

        So we're gonna now do it a second time. If it works a second time, it'll go into the 20% where on the third one we do, we'll make some tweaks to it. This one will be pretty similar to the first one. And then we'll make more tweaks and so on and so forth. The, the thing that people miss is they're so afraid to do that 10% because a lot of the times, and I know this is where you wanna go, like, that shit will flop. And we gotta be okay with that, right? Now w- w- I'm gonna get to this in a second, define flopping for me. But I believe that, you know, the best environment for media production, content creation, is a psychologically safe environment, one that allows for people to experiment and fail with no fear of repercussions, right? So, like, if we identify that we're going to experiment, if Trevor and I are, like, gonna do an experiment, and then we post it and I'm like, "Dude, why the fuck did this perform so bad? Like, what did ... You messed up on this," is he going to want to experiment with things in the future? Hell no. Less and less. And what I just articulated sounds insane, but 99% of you are doing that. [laughs] You, you think that you're gonna test something, and then when it doesn't do well, you in some way, and not, like, maybe overtly, but you punish your team for that experiment. And what do they do? Retreat into their turtle shell. Now, something that I mentioned is, like, let's figure out what flopping is. So back to the example that I just gave, that video, If You're Struggling With Making Content Please Watch This, that is our second best performing video on our channel views-wise. Our lowest performing video views-wise is a two-hour basically mini course on how to lead a media team. Not how to build one. How to lead one that already exists. Wildly niche. Yes. That one has less than 10,000 views I believe still. If we were to look just at the views, we probably would not continue making videos like that. But almost every creative director of the brands that we work with, and a lot of personal brands that we aspire to work with, reached out to me and said, "That was the most impactful video that we have put out." And so I know I'm jumping to another topic, but the, the thing that I would argue that people really need to do is define what winning looks like. Again, consistency. Like, what is the end goal? [laughs] And then how ... Like, if Trevor and I just looked at the views, we would never make that media team video again. But we have a video that's gonna be over two hours again coming out in September that is gonna be wildly in-depth, because we have seen time and time again that produces the results that we actually desire. Views we don't care about. Back to what I talked about earlier, we're trying to build a business. And so I want business outcomes, not vanity outcomes.

    18. CJCalum Johnson54:23

        Mm. You know, I, I get it. What, what you said makes ...

14. 54:27 – 57:14

    Why chasing virality traps most creators

    1. CJCalum Johnson54:27

       Is it makes so much sense, and I'm, I'm glad that you shared that on this show. Here's the thing, though. I'm curious about Caleb the human being.

    2. CRCaleb Ralston54:37

       [laughs]

    3. CJCalum Johnson54:38

       And may- and maybe not for you, but, like-

    4. CRCaleb Ralston54:39

       Yeah. Yeah

    5. CJCalum Johnson54:39

       ... even in other personal brands or people that you're building-

    6. CRCaleb Ralston54:42

       Yeah

    7. CJCalum Johnson54:43

       ... is that we, especially once it starts to work, and so you spoke about, like, zero to 100,000 followers and, like, what that journey is. Maybe once you've started to have, like, a certain level of traction, you've seen a certain level of results- I actually think that once you start building and scaling past that, that 10% becomes even more difficult. 'Cause in your mind you're like, "But I'm the guy that every time I post 100,000 people watch it."

    8. CRCaleb Ralston55:11

       And that is why I urge people to not build a brand around that. Notice how I talk. I talk about building a personal brand around trust, not virality. And so, like, I don't care if an Instagram clip gets 7,000 views when we normally average 25 right now, which isn't, is nothing, but we're, we're building. Like, that's fine. I'm not trying, like, I don't, I'm not even making myself known as that guy. I, I do my best to actually sandbag that shit. And, and again, I, I didn't make this up. I got it from Gary. Like, the amount of times that he would have, like, some wild idea for a clip that he wanted to try, and we would do it and it would work, was more often than not. But there was also clips that he came up with that, like, wildly flopped, and he loved it. Like, I would... I don't know if you've watched his content closely. This is because I'm a videographer probably, so I notice these details. But he does this little thing, I think I probably picked it up too, uh, where he, like, smirks out of the, the corner of his mouth. And every time that I would see, 'cause the way that it worked when I was on the team is we would text into a text thread videos, and then he would pick the one that he wanted to post. He'd watch it all the way through, write the caption, post it, and then go into a meeting. And then the meeting would end, and he'd check to see how it would do. And when it was murdering, he just would put the phone down and didn't give a shit. But when it flopped, he would give that, like, little smirk.

    9. CJCalum Johnson56:40

       [laughs]

    10. CRCaleb Ralston56:40

        Like, it, like, lit him up.

    11. CJCalum Johnson56:42

        Yeah.

    12. CRCaleb Ralston56:42

        And I, I took from that, I was like, "I'm gonna build a philosophy when I build a team of, like, we love a good flop." Not meaning that we want a week's worth of [laughs] flops. I'm not saying that. But if you create an environment where it's okay to, quote-unquote, "fail" or not hit the, the normal view count, well, then your team, but probably more importantly you the talent, are comfortable with putting shit out that doesn't hit. The problem, I think, is when people start,

15. 57:14 – 1:02:40

    Storytelling 101: why vulnerability beats perfection

    1. CRCaleb Ralston57:14

       you know, it's, it's the person with, you know, makes, making content for real estate agents or for mortgage brokers or whatever, and they're making niche content for their industry, and then they start getting success, and they start teaching people how to go viral, and they start talking more about that. That's where I see what you're talking about. Like, if we're getting really granular on what I have noticed pattern recognition-wise, that's where they get fucked, is they start, you know, they, they had a couple videos hit for maybe a couple of months, and then they start talking like they are a content virality expert. And then what they end up doing is they set this expectation that honestly most of the audience doesn't actually have. None of us are really paying attention to your numbers, truthfully. But the talent, the person on camera, believes that they now have to hit these numbers every time. And I believe that becomes a trap that limits you from being able to actually serve your audience in the way that you want to, that will impact them, cause them to trust you more, and then eventually cause them to transact with you.

    2. CJCalum Johnson58:20

       It's such a good point. It's like, um, I've... And I've found that the people that are the most successful in this, in this space, they actually love failure. Like, they're trying to drive towards failure 'cause that's the learning. Um, you know what? I wanna, I wanna switch gears 'cause earlier on we were talking about, um, how do you build a brand that people care about?

    3. CRCaleb Ralston58:40

       Yeah.

    4. CJCalum Johnson58:41

       How do you build a brand that people buy from you, that people trust? And one of the things that you mentioned, and you've mentioned it several times in this conversation, it's something that I love as well, is storytelling. And you actually have a storytelling playbook that you included in the workbook. Before we got, we go to that though, there's always this quote from, uh, Steve Jobs on storytelling where he says, "The most powerful person in the world is the storyteller. The storyteller sets the vision, the values, and the agenda of an entire generation that is to come." You know what? When, when, when you create a workbook which is, like, your guide from 16 years of brand building, and it's 45 pages, and a few of those pages in that workbook are dedicated solely to storytelling, why do you make that decision?

    5. CRCaleb Ralston59:36

       Mm.

    6. CJCalum Johnson59:36

       Like, why does that have to be a part of it?

    7. CRCaleb Ralston59:38

       Yeah. I mean, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Story is what breaks beliefs and changes people's views on things. It allows us to see... You know, um, I think, for example, uh, if you are somebody who has grown up in a world where there is nobody who looks like you that has accomplished what you want to accomplish, the moment that you hear a story about somebody who has gone through your experience or looks like you or has the same struggles and come up as you, that has made it in a way that you aspire to, suddenly we start to feel like we can, right? Basic example of this is, like, uh, when the four-minute mile got, uh, broken, right? And then all of a sudden a bunch of people started doing that, right? You, you see somebody else do something, and it changes your view on what is possible. And so I think that ultimately story just allows us, back to what we were talking about earlier, to be more relatable to everybody and to share the thing that will allow them to connect with us the most, right? Like, the people that are choosing to consume my content and follow along and that in some way would articulate that they find me relatable, I would bet that the reasons why I'm relatable are not my wins. They are my losses. They're the things that I have struggled with or done incorrectly and then learned from, not necessarily just the things that I've done correctly. So within storytelling, what a lot of people online make the mistake of doing is they only share their Ws and they try to posture, but that's not what's relatable, right? It's, it's your losses. That's what makes you relatable. And, and that's what people, I think, actually admire and trust more. It's kind of like your friend who is just always having a good time and everything's going great. You're like, "Eh, you're about to break," [laughs] like, "Something's wrong here. This isn't true." And so I think the same thing occurs in storytelling. You gotta be vulnerable and share those moments with people, and that's what ... I mean, actually, something that I have noticed with a lot of people that start to create content and start to blow up is they do a lot of podcasts. And a lot of podcasts start off with walking through the origin story, and the talent very quickly gets tired of telling that. And a lot of people will actually have their, like, content director, their version of Trevor, be like, "Hey, let's go ahead and skip the origin story. They don't like telling that anymore." But that's fucking dumb. That is the only relatable thing about you. That is the o- like, where you are right now is relatable to .0001% of the population. The majority of people relate to your come-up story, right? And your origin story. So that's why I like to do my best, whenever possible, to share that, right? Is to, to give that side of me, that human side, that people can connect with the most.

    8. CJCalum Johnson1:02:37

       That's when you were like them.

    9. CRCaleb Ralston1:02:39

       Nailed

16. 1:02:40 – 1:06:50

    Hooks that GRAB attention in 1 second

    1. CRCaleb Ralston1:02:40

       it.

    2. CJCalum Johnson1:02:41

       You know what? There's this, um-

    3. CRCaleb Ralston1:02:43

       Why'd you have me follow up a Steve Jobs quote, by the way?

    4. CJCalum Johnson1:02:45

       [laughs]

    5. CRCaleb Ralston1:02:45

       Brutal. Brutal. [laughs]

    6. CJCalum Johnson1:02:48

       You did your thing, though. You did your thing. Test in there, you know?

    7. CRCaleb Ralston1:02:51

       Yeah, yeah. I love it.

    8. CJCalum Johnson1:02:52

       That's the 10% said-

    9. CRCaleb Ralston1:02:52

       I love it

    10. CJCalum Johnson1:02:52

        ... there's the test. Um, there's this thing that you said in the, in the workbook, and I, and I, I loved this part because you have this beautiful thing where you can go, you can talk about the principles. I was actually telling you this outside. You can talk about the principles, like high level, why the things that work, the reason why they work.

    11. CRCaleb Ralston1:03:10

        Mm.

    12. CJCalum Johnson1:03:11

        You can then go super granular into the detail, into, like, the tactics. Like, here's how you actually execute the thing. And so there's this part in the workbook, you say, "The best stories follow a clear framework to capture attention, build engagement, and drive action." And so I wanted to go, like, deep because you laid out this actual structure of great storytelling and content, and I wanted to go deep and kind of just jam on that with you, 'cause I, I love storytelling, is ... And the first thing that you speak about is the hook. You have two seconds online to grab attention.

    13. CRCaleb Ralston1:03:50

        Might even be one second now. [laughs]

    14. CJCalum Johnson1:03:52

        One second maybe.

    15. CRCaleb Ralston1:03:53

        Yeah.

    16. CJCalum Johnson1:03:53

        And probably with AI and AI creating content, maybe even less than that.

    17. CRCaleb Ralston1:03:56

        Yeah.

    18. CJCalum Johnson1:03:57

        Start with a bold statement, a problem, or a question. Can you just talk to me, I guess, when you're, like, strategizing and thinking about content-

    19. CRCaleb Ralston1:04:05

        Yeah

    20. CJCalum Johnson1:04:06

        ... how do you come up with the hook? How much time are you spending on the hook? Like, just talk to me about that whole process of the hook coming together.

    21. CRCaleb Ralston1:04:15

        I think the main thing, and I, I could probably actually boil it down and make it more simple, um, I think I've, I've probably gotten a little bit better since we made that workbook, to be honest with you, at articulating my thoughts and beliefs. I would just say pain. The best thing is gonna be the pain of the current circumstance that the ideal viewer that you want to attract is in. So I'll, I'll give you an example that just hit home for me. Um, I don't remember what brand it was, but one of these wonderful, uh, male hair growth companies had an ad on my feed. And I'm bald, by the way, just to be clear, like, so this is where it's coming from. And the ad, it, you know, traditional, like, Bosley for Men back in the day that I would see on TV, it'd be like, you know, "Men experiencing male pattern baldness," and it was like, "Okay, yeah, that, that's speaking to my pain a little bit." But I actually think that there's an interesting element where you speak to the consequence of the pain that stands out wildly, like, in a brutal way for the viewer. The hook was, "Are you tired of wearing a hat all the time?" And I was like, "Fucking shit." [laughs] Like, "Yeah," like, "Absolutely," right? And I, I think that ultimately if you do that ... I'm not saying, and again, I'm not the guy for viral hooks. That's not me. Like, uh, there's plenty of people that do that. They do it really well. I look at those things. I try to borrow 'em from them when I can. But what I'm trying to do is solve very specific problems, painful problems, for my ideal customer, okay? And so I'm not telling you hooks that are gonna get millions of views. I'm telling you hooks that are gonna catch the attention of your ideal customer. And if you do that, it doesn't matter if you get 5,000 views or five views. As long as those five views are five people that are experiencing that painful problem and you're helping them solve it, you will bring them into your world because they're going to then solve that problem, that narrow, tiny problem, and they will associate you with their problem being solved, and trust increases. And so that, that's, that's why. [laughs]

    22. CJCalum Johnson1:06:31

        Mm. I'm curious, is there, like, um ... I think that sometimes the, the easiest way to create content or, like, even a business is when you're the customer because ... And, and the thing is, is because when you're the customer, it's like even what you were talking about with the boldness thing, you felt it personally.

17. 1:06:50 – 1:13:27

    How to find your audience’s painful problem

    1. CJCalum Johnson1:06:50

       So you can feel, you know that it's a real pain point because you felt the pain point. I'm curious, like, in those, when you're working with, uh, a client- And maybe you're not the, the customer of what their personal brand is. How do you guys ... 'Cause what you said, it's so simple, but it, it hits to that person, and it's like how do you get that level of clarity of like this is the pain point and this is how we frame it so that it speaks directly to what people are feeling?

    2. CRCaleb Ralston1:07:24

       I think it's just getting de- I, I'm weird that I, I kinda am a curious person by nature. I know you are too, and I think that you are able to do this, which is I can pretty quickly go fairly deep, not like world-class or anything, but pretty deep in a niche fairly quickly. And the way that I do that, I got this from Gary, like I, I did not come up with this, I look at how people are consuming content within that space. What are the comments? What are they saying on Twitter? What are they saying at an event in person? What are the common complaints, things that people are talking about, their pain points? And that's what I just try to focus on. I just try to learn that. I, I do that by just asking a shitload of questions, because I am inherently interested in a lot of things. I, I do find a lot of things interesting. I am curious by nature. Like for example, before I started working, um, on Team Gary, the place that I was at right before that was PureWow. This is a women's lifestyle publisher that, at the time at least, they were targeting, like their audience was women, mainly in the Midwest, 35 to like 45 or 50, AKA the exact opposite of who I was, right? But I very quickly dove into that world and started consuming the content, seeing what the audiences of other publishers and other individual creators in that space were putting out, how the audience was resonating or, more importantly, not resonating or not understanding it, and then I tried to fill those white spaces.

    3. CJCalum Johnson1:08:56

       That's interesting. And actually, sometimes it's seeing what people aren't resonating with actually gives you clarity.

    4. CRCaleb Ralston1:09:00

       Yeah. And to that point, I, I think where I've not had success is when we do take on somebody in an industry that I am not interested in, and I learn that the hard way and then realize like, oh, I, I am not this client or this customer of theirs, and I can't figure out how to be that. And then that's when it shouldn't be a client.

    5. CJCalum Johnson1:09:23

       Mm. That makes sense.

    6. CRCaleb Ralston1:09:25

       Which is something that you learn the hard way in the first year of business, as a side note. Like, like you learn that by, by doing. [laughs]

    7. CJCalum Johnson1:09:33

       Through the reps.

    8. CRCaleb Ralston1:09:34

       Yeah.

    9. CJCalum Johnson1:09:34

       You know, so one is the hook or the pain. I actually like, I like the pain. And then the second thing that you said is the problem.

    10. CRCaleb Ralston1:09:43

        Yeah.

    11. CJCalum Johnson1:09:43

        So setting up the stakes. It's the conflict and tension that makes your story engaging. The problem should be specific and relatable to your audience.

    12. CRCaleb Ralston1:09:54

        And what I did there is I overcomplicated it. I think what I just articulated is combining the hook and the problem.

    13. CJCalum Johnson1:10:01

        Mm.

    14. CRCaleb Ralston1:10:01

        So that's where like I'm ... And, and this, I just wanna be wildly transparent and vulnerable here. I'm in the process of I've been doing this for 16 years, but I've been doing it. I haven't been like documenting and all of that. And so I'm literally right now iterating and g- refining these things to make them better and stuff. And so like I just wanna call it out, I would not do it that way. I would combine the hook and the problem, and I believe that that is gonna be the best way to do it.

    15. CJCalum Johnson1:10:30

        Yeah. No, that's so good. And I, I like that people are getting the information like right now.

    16. CRCaleb Ralston1:10:34

        Yeah.

    17. CJCalum Johnson1:10:34

        Like they're getting the latest right now.

    18. CRCaleb Ralston1:10:36

        Yeah.

    19. CJCalum Johnson1:10:36

        The third thing that you mentioned was the journey, how you overcame it.

    20. CRCaleb Ralston1:10:40

        Yeah.

    21. CJCalum Johnson1:10:40

        You said people resonate with progress, not perfection.

    22. CRCaleb Ralston1:10:44

        Yeah.

    23. CJCalum Johnson1:10:44

        Show the messy middle, the doubts, the failures, the almost quitting moments.

    24. CRCaleb Ralston1:10:49

        What I'm doing right now. What I just did.

    25. CJCalum Johnson1:10:52

        Mm.

    26. CRCaleb Ralston1:10:52

        I just opened up saying a workbook that I put out that 28,000 people have downloaded so far, there's something that I would do differently in it, and I'm totally okay with that. And I, I think that's sharing the journey, right? Like I think me, we put out, in July we put out a talk that I did. Um, it was the first like public, not internal for the company that I work at, but first public talk I've ever given. And I open the talk by calling that out, and I end it by saying like, "Hey, this was my first talk [laughs] publicly. I have no idea," 'cause I didn't know how it looked. I, I was saying that at the very end of the video, and I hadn't watched it yet. So I thought it was terrible, and I'm sharing that with the audience, and then I'm asking them for feedback on, on areas that I can improve and stuff. I'm trying to bring everybody along my journey of like, hey, I have been the like shy guy, [laughs] the introvert behind the camera, and now I'm going through this process. And sometimes I'm going to say something that is good, and then six months later I'm gonna find out a better way to say it that makes it great, and I'm gonna bring you all along that journey. It'll get you results either way. I'm just getting better at articulating these things.

    27. CJCalum Johnson1:12:13

        Yeah.

    28. CRCaleb Ralston1:12:14

        But I'm sharing that, the journey, along the way.

    29. CJCalum Johnson1:12:17

        You know, you know what's interesting? I think so often we feel the doubt or just unsure, the uncertainty, the anxiety, and that's what shuts people down from creating content. Like they wanna shut off the cameras when you feel like that. And I love that frame of actually reversing it and like articulate that. That's what makes it stand out. That's what makes it stick and relate with people, is the doubt, and just verbalizing that is powerful.

    30. CRCaleb Ralston1:12:46

        Two, two really important things. My life philosophy, uh, which I don't like to share a lot because I am not a philosopher and I am not an expert on life, but it's basically taking all the things that are perceived disadvantages and figuring out how to make them your greatest advantage. And number two, something that Gary references all the time, is in "8 Mile", Eminem, uh, in the rap battle, calls out all the different things that his opponent could use to trash on him. What I just did is instead of people watching this podcast going, "Oh, he's like changing what he's say-" No, I'm, I'm like calling it out. I'm saying, "I said that in a way that I could say better now," right? And I think by doing that,

18. 1:13:27 – 1:19:08

    Every story needs this final piece (the storytelling framework)

    1. CRCaleb Ralston1:13:27

       you ... Like, I feel more confident right now after saying that, not less. If I would've tried to like make it work, I would feel wildly anxious and insecure right now. I wouldn't show it, but I, my heart rate would be going through the roof right now being like, "Okay, people are gonna notice that he basically articulated the problem as the hook, and then he pretended like the problem was another thing here and tried to make it work," rather than just calling out. Right? And so I think if you take those two principles, you take the things that you view as your disadvantages and make them your advantage. I'm a verbal processor, right? And so I am over time going to get bet- This is humans, but I am especially a verbal processor. I'm going to get better at articulating my thoughts over time.

    2. CJCalum Johnson1:14:13

       Mm.

    3. CRCaleb Ralston1:14:14

       And rather than waiting until they're perfect, I'm gonna put them out and refine over time in real time publicly for the audience. And then if you do the second part and anything that you're anxious about or worried about, you just call out, suddenly that anxiety reduces significantly. I'm literally speaking about this in real time right now.

    4. CJCalum Johnson1:14:37

       Yeah. You know, you, you mention real time, and it's funny because what you just did is actually the final step in that storytelling framework-

    5. CRCaleb Ralston1:14:45

       [laughs]

    6. CJCalum Johnson1:14:46

       ... which is the lesson, is every story should end with a clear takeaway. Tie the lesson back to your expertise and give people something they can use.

    7. CRCaleb Ralston1:14:56

       That's cool. Bang.

    8. CJCalum Johnson1:14:59

       Just like that.

    9. CRCaleb Ralston1:15:00

       Done.

    10. CJCalum Johnson1:15:01

        You know what? 'Cause I think it's so good, and I understand how that framework, it leads to people caring about what you're saying. It leads to people finding value, and like it establishes you as like an authority and someone who's knowledgeable and an expert. My question to you, though, how does this actually lead ... I think there's a difference between getting people to care and then that final step of getting them to buy from you. And so how, how is that wrapped up where it's not just that I'm t- sharing great stories? Like, I could be following this framework to the T-

    11. CRCaleb Ralston1:15:38

        Yeah

    12. CJCalum Johnson1:15:38

        ... to perfection, doesn't necessarily mean that they're gonna go and buy my product or support my brand financially. Like, what have you seen ... What is important in making that, I don't wanna call it like a shift, but what gets people to buy?

    13. CRCaleb Ralston1:15:55

        Trust. I believe people care because they are selfish. So they care because you do something for them. You provide them some sort of utility. And then when you provide them that utility consistently over time, they start to trust you more, and then they start to take action on the things that you say. So again, I'm speaking to educational content here, not entertainment. In educational content, you're giving essentially a list of things to do, right? And if the audience starts to trust you, they will start to take action. 'Cause even before they take action on what you say, they have to trust you, right? So you have to develop trust for them to even take action. But once they start taking action on the things that you share, and they get their desired outcomes, they get results, when this is done consistently, it's like Michael Jordan and the Nikes. You're pairing yourself with them achieving their desired outcomes. Their trust in you goes through the roof, and I just believe that trust is the currency that precedes the transaction. If you don't have trust, you won't get the transaction. I believe every transaction comes down to trust. It's just a scale of how much do I need to trust for this transaction. When I go to buy a stick of gum, not a stick, a pack of gum. Who buys a stick of gum? When I go to buy a pack of gum, I am choosing a brand because I trust that it's gonna taste like it tasted the last time. Or if I've never tried it before, I trust that I'm going to like this. But it's like a buck 99. I don't need that much trust in 5 Gum, in Orbitz, or whoever the hell I'm buying from. I don't need that much trust for a decision like that. If I am going to invest in somebody to help develop my personal brand strategy and spend $300,000 this year with them, I'm gonna need a fuckload of trust, right? And I believe that that trust is developed through micro wins consistently over time. And so that's why we put out the content the way we do. Our ultimate goal in our educational content, every decision that we make ladders up to does this make it easier for the person watching to do something differently, AKA to take action or not? And so like for those individuals out there that have graphics and, and, and cutaways and all these wonderful motion graphics and, and things on their edits, a lot of people, and this is getting super tactical for a quick second, a lot of people do that to keep retention. But the greatest retention is learning, and oftentimes your graphics actually distract from the learning and make it harder to take action and understand what you need to do. Sometimes they assist, and that's when it's a good choice to put a graphic in place. And so ultimately, I believe that if you are making it easier for your audience to take action on what you're saying, they take action, and you do this consistently, you are building trust, and trust is what builds the ability to ask for a transaction.

    14. CJCalum Johnson1:18:57

        Here's where I wanted to go. Um, I saw this clip from, from your mentor, your friend Gary, who we've spoken about multiple times,

19. 1:19:08 – 1:28:34

    AI and the future of brand (what stays timeless)

    1. CJCalum Johnson1:19:09

       um- And he's also, like, a hugely significant part of, like, my story and, like, even wanting to do this as well actually. But anyway, I saw this-

    2. CRCaleb Ralston1:19:16

       You, me, and m-millions

    3. CJCalum Johnson1:19:18

       Yeah, millions of other people. I saw this clip where he was talking about AI [smacks lips] and what the impact of AI is gonna be on marketing, on brand building. And one of the things that he mentioned is, like, rather than posting, I don't know how much he posts daily, like 20, 30 posts a day, he's talking about you can do 4,000 posts a day because of AI. I'm curious for you, 'cause we've kind of spoken about, like, the principles of building a brand, of building a timeless brand, a powerful brand. In a world where there is an AI or a group of agents or whatever the thing is that can produce thousands of content, and then that's being done across billions of humans, how does that affect, if at all, the principles of brand building and what it takes to actually build a powerful brand?

    4. CRCaleb Ralston1:20:18

       Well, first off, I wanna give the disclaimer I am not an AI expert, and I will never pretend to be unless I become one. Uh, and so I am currently deep in trying to learn about this and everything, and so everything that I'm gonna share is gonna be, you know, one man's thoughts. So take it with a massive, uh, not a grain, like a pound of salt. One, uh, I'll give you something that I believe is going to happen, and, and I, I don't like to make predictions, but I don't even think this is a prediction. I think this is inevitable. Um, when we went from TVC ads to social media, we went from Nike making a 30-second spot for one of their sub-brands, right? Nike running, Nike basketball, Nike whatever, b- uh, baseball, all this different shit. They would make a TVC spot for that and try and make it vanilla to reach every single person in society, and ultimately, it reached less and less people because of that. Social media came around, and all of a sudden they were able to make really targeted ads showing many different types of people in many different scenarios utilizing their product. Uh, they were also able to now create accounts where it was Nike running, Nike basketball, Nike all these different sub-accounts, right? So that we've already seen happen with a technology shift and a, an attention shift, right? I believe where this is going is I think that every single brand and personal brand will have AI creators, influencers that are creating on their behalf that reach every single different type of human imaginable. So Nike might have thousands and thousands of different accounts and influencers that are targeted to very niche individuals, like the person who is into running but also is obsessed with Legos. There's gonna be an entire page about that shit, right? And so I, I think that's something that will come. Um, I think, and again, I wanna emphasize I think, I think it's just going to magnify the scale of the principles that we're already talking about. So I think the principles will still apply. I think the tactics are gonna change dramatically. So ultimately, I still believe that branding is the same and that the byproduct of branding, brand, is the same. I just believe that the risks that come with this are gonna be higher. And so I actually think that there is a world where brands are gonna have to be more careful about the content that's being put out for... Like, just to take another example, this whole, like, clip farming world where, like, you pay people to get a bunch of views on your clips, I view that as a vulnerability to somebody's brand because they're paying people based on views, and what gets the most amount of views? The most controversial, like, fallacious, crazy thing, right? And I think when AI hits massive scale, you're just gonna have that at a whole nother level. And so I think it's gonna be more around brand protection potentially. But again, I... Like, we're, we're g- delving into an area where it's like, I don't know, and I, I don't really spend too much time trying to predict more. And again, I got this from Gary. I, I try to react to the now. I try to be as quick as possible to the now. Um, and something actually on AI now, so this is not for the future, but right now, too many of you are using ChatGPT to make your content, and you're not sounding like a fucking human. You're all sounding like the same goddamn robot. And so I would actually argue that you should continue to use ChatGPT and all these AI tools because it's something that we're going... It's gonna be, like, integrated with society, right? Like, y- you can't exist without it in a couple of years, I'm sure. But right now, everybody has, like, outsourced their thinking and their creativity to ChatGPT, and I think one way to stand out right now is just to write the shit yourself, right? Or to go back and, and develop a better workflow of working with AI to generate your content. I think that's a big one right now that we're seeing is, like, you're, you're removing individual human thought, and you're outsourcing it all to AI. Like, I know when I want to draft an outline for a video that we're gonna do, when I start with ChatGPT, it is dog shit what it gives me, and that's where most people stop, and then they post that. And what I'm doing is I'm basically utilizing it to help me with structuring content, right? Giving me, like... We work back and forth to develop the framework for a video, but then I'm inputting the information, right? I'm putting my personal stories as an example to make it contextual to me. But as far as, like, how AI is gonna influence brand, I would rather Be quick to react rather than predict.

    5. CJCalum Johnson1:25:18

       Mm. I'm curious 'cause, 'cause you're just like such a, like a student of the space, and you talk about the importance of observing what's happening now.

    6. CRCaleb Ralston1:25:27

       Yeah.

    7. CJCalum Johnson1:25:28

       And so if we just go deeper into that conversation of like, okay, the people that you really respect in the space when it comes to building brand and personal brand-

    8. CRCaleb Ralston1:25:39

       Yeah

    9. CJCalum Johnson1:25:39

       ... what are some of the things that you're seeing them do now where you're like, I don't know, maybe having been behind the scenes and kinda just having that strategic lens, you're like, "Oh, they're like almost setting up a play for the future." Like-

    10. CRCaleb Ralston1:25:55

        See, tho- unfortunately I can't speak to those things 'cause the, the ones that are actually, that I would love to talk about, I can't, I can't talk about 'cause they're, they're private, right?

    11. CJCalum Johnson1:26:03

        Yeah.

    12. CRCaleb Ralston1:26:04

        Um, but what I will say-

    13. CJCalum Johnson1:26:05

        Yeah

    14. CRCaleb Ralston1:26:05

        ... is there are a couple characters that are working on some, some wild shit that I do think will transform the way that we interact with influencers, is how I will put it. But, but I, I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna reveal anything that I, I shouldn't. But what I will say is I think the technology right now, meh. Like it's decent for content creation. It's not incredible in my opinion. I think the best move, and again [chuckles] I just sound like a fucking parrot, uh, what I got from Gary is when Vine came out, the people that jumped in on Vine and learned the skills of short-form video, even though Vine died, had the skills when Musical.ly and then eventually TikTok became a thing, right? And they transferred those skills to other platforms. These are like the Paul brothers, all these characters.

    15. CJCalum Johnson1:26:55

        Mm-hmm.

    16. CRCaleb Ralston1:26:55

        Right? And so in my opinion, even though I don't like any of the articles that AI writes for me, I literally just wrote an email sequence and had ChatGPT do it, and I put it into the document, gave it to the team that was building out our flow, and then I read them and I was like, "These are dog shit." [laughs] Like I... And then I went in and rewrote them myself, right? I don't think it's at that level, but I think that what we need to be doing right now, this is one man's opinion, is gaining the skills of working with AI and going back and forth. Dan Martell actually posted a really incredible video that changed how I use, uh, ChatGPT recently, where he shares this whole thing of like building a master prompt, and then system prompts, and all these things that I, I just didn't know, right? And so I think what I'm trying to do right now is learning more of the way that I interact with it, but I'm not using it for final output in any way, shape, or form. I'm just trying to gain the skills so that when it is at the point where it does put something out that I'm proud of, I'm at a level where I can do that at scale.

    17. CJCalum Johnson1:27:58

        Yeah.

    18. CRCaleb Ralston1:27:58

        Does that make sense?

    19. CJCalum Johnson1:27:59

        Yeah.

    20. CRCaleb Ralston1:27:59

        Like, I'm practicing and learning more right now than like getting my desired output.

    21. CJCalum Johnson1:28:05

        Yeah. No, no, it does make sense. You know, I'm, I'm kinda curious to hear your perspective on this, 'cause I was having, um, I was having a conversation with a friend. He wasn't actually speaking specifically about AI. He was talking about, uh, social media and the impact of social media in short form, and I think what he was speaking to is only gonna be accentuated by AI generating content.

    22. CRCaleb Ralston1:28:26

        Hmm.

    23. CJCalum Johnson1:28:26

        Which is he was saying that he's so fed up of like the algorithms and there's like a video for everything, and everything

20. 1:28:34 – 1:33:00

    Why in-person connection is the ultimate moat

    1. CJCalum Johnson1:28:34

       is happening online and it's digital, and it's all optimized based off data, and it's like it's so engineered and scientific, like it's lost, like a lot of brands and marketing has like lost actual emotion and trust and feeling 'cause it's all like data-driven. And so he was talking about, he's like, "Ah, wouldn't it be great if things could go back to the way that they were in like," I dunno, "the '90s or the 2000s where a lot of the way that things were marketed, it had to be done in person." Like, if you wanted to build a fashion brand-

    2. CRCaleb Ralston1:29:06

       Yeah

    3. CJCalum Johnson1:29:06

       ... you had to be in New York and be in that like center of things. And it's curious 'cause I, I hear a lot of people when they talk about AI and kind of how they're thinking about, uh, thriving in that era of AI, it's through leaning into what is human. Like, what is personal and what is human.

    4. CRCaleb Ralston1:29:29

       Yeah.

    5. CJCalum Johnson1:29:29

       And it's interesting 'cause even with Gary, I saw Gary's been talking a lot more about like community-

    6. CRCaleb Ralston1:29:34

       Yeah

    7. CJCalum Johnson1:29:34

       ... in real life. Can you, can you speak to me about that? I can see your kind of-

    8. CRCaleb Ralston1:29:38

       When we went-- So in May, Gary did, uh, for VeeFriends, a collaboration release with Topps, the, um, card collecting, uh, company. And they did like a Topps Chrome release. Now, I'm not deep in the card world, so I don't know exactly what that means. All I know is that's a really big deal and very exclusive. And in having this big, uh, release, Gary wanted to document it by bringing back DailyVee for the month. So he invited all the OG characters that used to film with him back, and I got the opportunity to go back and film with him for a couple of days. It was really fun. Trevor came with me. It was awesome. And what I noticed was we, there was one day where we spent the entire day at this card collectors convention, and he was just shaking hands, taking photos, answering questions, and just engaging with everybody in real time, in real life. Not high leverage, not scalable. And he had like seven more of those the next week. And I asked him at the end of one of the episodes, I was like, "Why, why are you doing this?" Like, "This is like a pivotal time in VeeFriends. Like, this is, these next couple of years from what I see on the outside seem like the years that like either this becomes a big thing or it doesn't. These are the important years. These are pivotal. Why are you spending it doing something that's not scalable? Like, why are you not like going live on whatnot or whatever, right?" And he said, "In the age of AI, it's all about shaking hands and kissing babies." Right? It's like that presidential thing that presidents still to this day do when they're running to be elected, is they go and meet with real people in real life, and that's that hand-to-hand combat that he believes truly builds. And when you really look at his, his career actually, I'm realizing this literally right now, he's been doing this since the beginning. He did the Gary Vee secret wine parties at like South by Southwest way back in the day, before he was like the Gary Vee that we know him as, right? And I think it's something, to your point, that I would feel comfortable saying is as AI is continuing to evolve, yeah, definitely in-person, physical, real human shit is gonna be important. I've been seeing him make clips about how people are gonna get paid to go on a walk with you, right? Like, I do think that that human connection in a world where we're getting less and less of that, and we're getting like synthetic connection with AI, I think people will want that real human connection and that real experience. So yeah, in person, all that will become more valuable.

    9. CJCalum Johnson1:32:20

       Yeah. You know, when it comes to AI, the conversation's interesting, 'cause I feel like you have like one of two camps, and they're kind of like extreme on either side. So you have the one camp which is like pure doomsday. Like this is gonna be the, the end of humanity. We're building like, uh, an intelligence that is more intelligent than us, and what is that gonna mean down the line? And like, there's a ton of anxiety and, you know, even, even less than the existential threat, it's like a bunch of people are gonna be unemployed. What does this mean for my business, my career, all of that stuff. You have that on one side. You then have the, the other side of things, which is like

21. 1:33:00 – 1:36:00

    What to focus on for the next 12 months (the one thing)

    1. CJCalum Johnson1:33:00

       deeply optimistic and thinking about all of the opportunities and what businesses am I able to build and how can it empower my life and all of these different things. I'm curious for you, for the person, and we spoke about it right in the beginning, who has that concern of like, you know, "I feel lost when it comes to marketing and brand building. I already feel like social media is oversaturated and like there's so many people and accounts like what I want to build that are already doing it."

    2. CRCaleb Ralston1:33:34

       Mm.

    3. CJCalum Johnson1:33:36

       I guess for that human, if you were to say like, "For this next year, focus your time and your attention on this one thing," we spoke about like the having that like central outcome or that central thing that you're like optimizing towards. What do you think is something that's, that human being can focus on now that a year from now they'd be so grateful for like, "Thank God I started doing that 12 months ago"?

    4. CRCaleb Ralston1:34:08

       If you get really clear on what your desired outcome is and what customers, audience, whatever you wanna call them, you'll need to get there. Once you do that, the thing that you need to focus on is identifying their very painful, narrow problems that they have that you can solve over and over and over. And if you just do that, if your whole goal in building your personal brand is solving people's problems, you'll stand out. You will stand out. 'Cause the majority of people are making content to make them look good, to show how great they are. They would articulate and say to you, "I'm trying to solve pe-" They're not. They are trying to give you their pedigree. If you truly are deep in it and know the problems that your ideal viewer, customer, listener, whatever, has, and you really give them the tools to solve it, you will get to where you want to be a lot faster than you could have ever imagined if you actually do that. Not, not like how companies will put their values up on a wall and never live by them. Like, you actually have to do that, which means that in the real world, you need to be solving those problems. You need to be doing the thing. You need to actually be in action. And so again, I will repeat too for those individuals, if the person you're about to pay to teach you something is not actively doing the thing, don't pay them.

    5. CJCalum Johnson1:35:40

       You know what? And, and here's where I wanna end. 'Cause we talk about like longevity and having like a timeless brand and all of these things, and even being like an actual practitioner, like being the person that's doing the thing. And I think the difficulty of what, of like showing up on a daily basis and doing that is what I call, or what

22. 1:36:00 – 1:42:49

    Pushing through the “Dip” when you want to quit

    1. CJCalum Johnson1:36:00

       Seth Godin calls the dip. And I remember like I, I read his book. He has a book called The Dip, and I-

    2. CRCaleb Ralston1:36:05

       Yeah

    3. CJCalum Johnson1:36:05

       ... I read it, and one of the quotes that always stood out to me, he said, "The dip is that moment when it feels so hard and so unlikely that you will succeed, and so it feels like you should quit, because that's when everyone quits. And sticking through that dip is how we get to the other side." And so as someone that's worked with like Gary or even the work that you did with Alex Hormozi and seeing where they are now, I'm sure that you probably personally witnessed like a ton of moments of the dip, of this thing doesn't feel like it's gonna work. I'm sure even in what you're building, you have certain moments where you feel the dip. For the person listening at home, I'm just curious like when you feel that, and we've all had it as entrepreneurs, almost like that hopelessness, that like, "Is this gonna work? I, am I gonna stick through this?" What keeps you going in those moments?

    4. CRCaleb Ralston1:37:09

       Hmm. I love the question. [sighs] I think for me It's knowing who I'm trying to serve and prioritizing them above myself. And so any moment, 'cause for me and a lot of people that I have worked with, the dip, oddly enough, isn't like, "Oh, no, the content's not working." It comes at what we were talking about earlier, peeling back new layers of the onion. When you go on the journey of being public, the best way, in my opinion, to do it is a level, and everyone has to have their own version of this, but a level of vulnerability. And so what I've noticed the dips typically are for a lot of individuals is every time they go to a new level of more transparency or vulnerability. And I think what I did last night when I peeled back another layer of the onion when Trevor and I were working on this project that we're working on where we're going to be even more vulnerable and transparent, is I had the fears. I'm gonna tell you actually exactly what it was. We're putting together this cool project for this awesome, cool thing that we're doing. I don't need to go into that. That doesn't matter. But in this awesome, cool, secret project that I'm being wildly vague about, uh, we are walking people through exercises, and Trevor had built out this cool, wildly awesome, vague thing that in prompting you to do this exercise, it gave you my example of my answer. And I was going through and testing it out, and I'm like, "Whoa. Oh my God, we're sharing this with people. This is wild." Like, this is a pretty personal thing. We're sharing my goals, intimately goals, [chuckles] you know? And I immediately, friction. I messaged Trevor on Slack immediately, and I'm like, "What if we came up with, like, a fake person and came up with, like, fake examples that were really good, showed them what good looked like, but that way we don't have to use mine?" And we were talking back and forth, and, and thank you for the patience. I just had to work through realizing that I prefer to help people accomplish what I'm trying to help them accomplish more than I prefer my comfort level, at a certain level. Now, there is, there is a limit to that, of course, [chuckles] you know? But I think it's realizing that I am coming to terms with the fact that I want to pri- And I say coming to terms with, because people will say this, but most of them don't mean it. Like, truly putting your audience above yourself in every way, shape, or form. And I think if you do that, any time that you feel that dip of like, "Oh my God, I can't believe I'm gonna share that. I'm, I can't believe I'm gonna reveal that L," you know that those things are going, that's what is going to help your audience the most. And so by you holding that back, you're holding your audience back. And so I believe the best creators care about their audience more than themselves, and so they choose to put that out there and push through that dip because it's about their audience, not them. When in my previous role in-house, a- as another example on this, I, um, had been working really hard, I'd built up a big team, and I was working like crazy. And I remember meeting with the CEO and being like, "Nobody on the team is taking any vacations, and I'm scared that they're going to get burnt out." And she goes, "Have you taken a vacation?" And I was like, "No. No. But, like, I can't. Like, oh, da, da, da." She was like, "But wouldn't you burn out?" I was like, "Yeah, but I don't care. I'll, I'll push through it." She goes, "But if you don't e- model it for your team, then they'll never do it. So don't do it for you, do it for them." And I, in that moment, realized that I am more motivated by people around me and others than for my own things. And I'm not saying that to brag. I, I actually think that it, it hurts in a lot of ways, [chuckles] right? Makes fitness goals really difficult. But I believe that if you are that kind of person, inherently you do have a competitive advantage in putting out content and building your personal brand, because you're not going to do it in a selfish way that is short-term minded and blows up right now, but then eventually actually blows up later. You do it like Gary does. Gary's been doing this for a fuckload of time, 16 years of putting content out publicly, right? And I believe the reason why he's still doing it is because he has always chosen to put the audience above him. And so I think that if you are struggling with a dip, look at things outside yourself as motivation to continue.

    5. CJCalum Johnson1:42:36

       Hmm. I love that. I think that's a beautiful message to end. Caleb Ralston, thank you so much, man. Okay, so if you enjoyed this episode, you're gonna absolutely love what we did with this one right here. Click here.

Episode duration: 1:42:49