The Brand Expert REVEALS How To Quit Your Job & Build $1M Personal Brand As An Introvert | Chris Do

Chris Do 0:00 We know that there are people on TikTok and on Instagram that have massive followings, and this is literally all they do. They just tell you stories, and they're really good storytellers. Or they just happen to be incredibly good-looking. So you're saying, "Well, Chris, I have none of those things. What am I going to do? Am I totally screwed from participating in this personal branding game?" Absolutely not. You have something else that they might not have, which is- Most of my young adult life, from ages zero to 19, I'm in that inauthentic place. I'm hurting. I'm, I'm looking to find who I am, to know my own identity, and it's being formed by other people's opinions of me. Feeling very insecure about myself, wanting to disappear quite to be, like, to be invisible.

Calum Johnson 0:41 For the person that's in kind of that, that losing cycle, what is like one piece of advice you would give that person of, like, it just starts to reverse that momentum loop, like something that they can just start to focus on?

Chris Do 0:54 The answer s- is surprisingly simple on this one.

Calum Johnson 0:56 Today's guest is Chris Do. His first company, Blind, grossed over $80 million. It was a brand design consultancy business. He's now a full-time educator. You've probably seen his YouTube channel, The Futur. They have over 2.5 million subscribers, over 300 million views, teaching people how to make a living off what they love. And that's exactly what we discuss in this episode, is how you can go from working at that job that does not feel like a fit to you, how can you go from that place to running and operating a personal brand that is making you a living? And one of the things I love from talking with Chris is that he really goes deep into the principles, the mindsets, the exercises that you need to do so you can come with a clear vision of what your personal brand is, and then you can translate that to content. And right at the end of the conversation, we talk about the monetization piece, which is, first of all, when will you know that you're ready to monetize? And then not only how can you monetize, but how can you offer services that will lead to you being over-subscribed, lead to you having almost too many people willing to give you money for what you do? This is an episode that I wish existed a year ago, two years ago, when I started this podcast and when I started building my personal brand. So in the comment section, let me know how you like it. And without further ado, let's get into it. Chris, how you doing?

Chris Do 2:40 I'm doing great. Glad to be here. You look like you're in a majestic background. I don't know what's going on here.

Calum Johnson 2:44 I know. We had to-- I told you I've been following you since 2017. We had to pull out all the stops.

Chris Do 2:48 [laughs] You certainly did.

Calum Johnson 2:49 [laughs] No, you have a nice studio where you're at as well.

Chris Do 2:52 Thank you.

Calum Johnson 2:53 Um, okay, let's get into it. And I wanna, I wanna talk about personal brand, branding and marketing. And I think a lot of the best businesses, a lot of the best brands, what they do, it's personal to them. And it's interesting because I remember, uh, this quote from Deion Sanders. He's obviously managing, like, the Colorado Buffalos. Um, and they were, like, a huge underdog in a certain game, and they came out, and they won. And he-- afterwards, he said, "This is personal." They're like, "What motivated you?" He's like, "This is personal to me." And so one of the things I saw, I saw it on your website, I've seen it on your YouTube videos, I've seen it in podcasts that you do, is this mission, this mission of teaching one billion people how to make a living doing what they love. And so here's where I wanted to begin. Why is that personal for you?

Chris Do 3:43 Mm. Very good question. Okay. It's personal because as an immigrant refugee to this country, my parents emphasized the importance of education and how that can be a ladder for your future success. And having lived the American dream, going to school and building my business and reaping the rewards of that, I feel a great sense of, like, debt, like I'm indebted to this country for opening their arms to us, giving us the opportunity. And we, we basically turned tragedy into triumph. And so I feel like it's important for people who achieve something to lend a hand to someone who's a little bit behind them, to help pull them up. So it's not just talk, words, but it's actually action and deed, and that's why I'm really committed to this mission.

Calum Johnson 4:32 Hmm. You know what? I'm, I'm curious. When, when did you have that realization of, like, wanting to give, like, wanting to give it back? Because I know that you, you've built so many businesses. Like, you're kind of good personally, right?

Chris Do 4:46 Yes.

Calum Johnson 4:46 So what was, what was kind of the moment where you were like, "Okay, we actually need to pay this forward"?

Chris Do 4:52 I think it's the, the idea that, you know, you have goals, and you think having financial security will bring you happiness, and that's what you work for. And for most of us, we never quite get there. But when you actually get there... And I'm having this conversation with my financial advisor, asking him, his name is John, "John, when, when can I retire?" My wife says, like, two years from now, like, just earn enough money. And, and he goes through the books real quickly. He knows my numbers. He goes, "Based on what you have, what you own, what you've saved, and how you spend money, you could have retired years ago." And I was just shocked in that moment. I'm like, "Wait a minute. So what's this all about then?" And so I go and confront my wife. She was there in the, in the room. I'm like, "Babe, you've been telling me I need to work more." And she goes, "No, I never told you that." I'm like, "What? What are we talking about here? You literally told me two more years. 'Give me two more good years, babe, to, to have that financial cushion.'" So once you achieve securing financial means for your family, for your children, and for people you care about in your life, you have to ask yourself a much bigger question, is what is the purpose and the meaning of my life? Have I discovered my gift? And if I haven't, then I need to figure that part out because now we're free from, like, working to make a living. And that's when I start to really dig into, into myself and I realize something. Deep inside of me, my truest identity is an educator. It's not as a graphic designer, it's not as a director, and it's not as an entrepreneur, but it's an educator. And what I do, wanna do more than anything else is to teach people. So this is now perfectly aligned with who I'm supposed to be in this life.

Calum Johnson 6:25 Hmm. Now that's so good. And you, you, you know what's interesting is most people never find their unique gift. Like, they, they go through their whole life, you never find that thing that was, like, meant for you. You were uniquely supposed to do it. And it reminds me of this quote, I heard you say it. You say, "When I try to teach people about personal branding, it's not so much I'm trying to sell you anything, it's mostly I want you to, I want you to know who the hell I'm supposed to be in this life, and w- I want to heal and show up 100% as I am. And when I can do that, oddly enough, I seem to attract more people to me." And so I, I love that quote 'cause it's such a nice way to think about branding and marketing. But the way that my brain

Calum Johnson 7:12 works, when I heard you say that, and speaking about healing yourself, showing up 100% in the way that you're meant to, I thought to myself, like, "What's the moment in Chris's life when he was the exact opposite of all of those things?" When you were not healed, when you were not authentic, when you did not know who you were. Like, when I even say those things, what's the experience? What's the story, the moment that kinda comes to your mind?

Chris Do 7:39 Hmm. I think my most of my young adult life from ages zero to 19, I'm in that inauthentic place. I'm hurting. I'm, I'm looking to find who I am, to, to know my own identity, and it's being formed by other people's opinions of me. Feeling very insecure about myself, wanting to disappear, quite to be, like, to be invisible. And it, there's a lot of different factors that contribute to this. And just for context, people need to know a, a few things. I'm an introvert, I'm an immigrant refugee. English is my second language. So we lost our, our country, we lost our language, we lost our customs and our culture. We lost so much when we fled Vietnam, uh, due to the, to the fall of Saigon. So we come to America where people don't look like us, they don't sound like us, and I'm having a hard time adjusting because my parents are als- not also people who understand American culture. And they're busy working, so there's really no one here to explain to us how things work. All I can see were the radical differences between the people I saw on TV, in magazines, and in school. They didn't sound or look like us. And so that creates this kind of disassociation, like, "I don't know who I'm supposed to be here." And then I'm also a middle child, so that means I have people-pleasing tendencies, I have caretaker tendencies. And so you put that into this ball, and then that would pretty much explain why I am the way I am. And there were some moments of racism, some, uh, anti-Asian hate. Uh, w- way back then they were, like, a lot less welcoming and progressive here in America, in California than, than we are today, and we're still struggling through some of this stuff. And so of course, one could explain, duh, no, no, there's no wonder why you feel so out of place everywhere you go. Put, put into, add into it one other, one other ingredient. I'm a highly sensitive and observant person, and this does not fit into stereotypical male roles. It, it doesn't feel masculine to be a person who's, like, thinking about my skincare, or to look at patterns and textures in, in homes and in clothes and thinking about creating things. Everything that boys my age wanted to do was the exact opposite of what I wanted to do. I wasn't really into sports. I'm not into kind of like these machismo attitudes that men tend to, to carry with them. So my best friends in school throughout, I guess, junior high through college, were women and they weren't, they weren't guys. They weren't men.

Calum Johnson 9:59 Hmm. I'm curious, was that like, um... 'Cause I think it's relatable. I think we, especially when we're growing up, we have these moments where you're like, you feel almost like a misfit, like you don't fit into the traditional roles or what you're meant to be. And for a little while it's like you try to m- like, force yourself into it, you try to assimilate. And then there's kind of like a turning point. There's a, there's a point where you're like, "You know what? I'm just gonna go all in on myself." And I'm curious if you remember that moment, the turning point. What, what comes to mind?

Chris Do 10:33 The turning point isn't as stark as a 90-degree turn. It's a gradual process. And I do remember certain points. Number one, when I got accepted into art school, that was a big point for me because I think finally I found a skill that I have and I want to amplify that, I want to learn, I wanna be surrounded by the best. So getting into ArtCenter College of Design was a big turning point for me. And then finding myself amongst a lot of creative people and seeing where I stack up amongst them was an important defining moment for me. I was told and led to believe that everybody at ArtCenter is going to be 10X better than me, so I was going into it very humbly, wanting to learn, knowing that I have a lot of work to do. And so I focused on doing that work. Then slowly I started to realize I'm as good, if not better than most of my classmates, and this thing that seems challenging and puzzling to them is coming rather naturally to me, and I add a good dose of, like, a solid work ethic, grinding it out, having over, uh, what do they call it? Uh, all-nighters. Helped me to even edge out. And so I started to find an identity. It was one that I was gonna carry for a number of years, but now instead of it's Chris the generic human being, it's Chris the graphic designer. And so whenever I would meet somebody, like, "Well, what do you do?" "I'm a graphic design- I'm a graphic designer." I would say that over and over again. So now I have the foundations to build something on top of, and then over time it starts to grow and expand beyond that definition before it reverts back to the core definition or core identity, which is an educator. So it, it was a gen- it was a gradual, a process that happened over time.

Calum Johnson 12:04 Okay. Nice. Okay. The, where I wanted to go next, so

Calum Johnson 12:10 I, I mentioned, I started watching you in 2017.

Chris Do 12:12 Mm-hmm.

Calum Johnson 12:13 And, um, at the time I was trying to build a clothing brand. It was the first business that I ever tried. It was a spectacular failure.

Chris Do 12:20 [laughs]

Calum Johnson 12:20 Uh, I don't, I don't hold you responsible for that. [laughs]

Chris Do 12:24 We're good.

Calum Johnson 12:25 And I came back to you actually a few, a few years later when I was trying to start an agency, and I wanted to learn sales. And then you have, like, these role plays on your, on your channel where someone's literally giving you scenarios and questions and you're, you know, you're kinda going through it and you're pausing at certain moments to, like, say how you would deal with a certain situation. And you were always so certain. That was the thing that came across to me. It was like you always knew the right thing to say, the right question to ask. And so I think when it comes to those sort of scenarios, it's like most people don't know the right thing to say. I know for me, I didn't know the right thing to say. And so I'm curious from your perspective, like, what was the moment in your life where you didn't know? Like, you were dealing with these kind of sales scenarios or business questions, client questions, and you didn't know the right thing to say. Like, what was even the environment? What was even the context around you? I'm taking you back here. [laughs]

Chris Do 13:23 Yeah, you are. You're asking really good questions, Calum. I can tell that you're, you've done the research and you know the material really well, so I appreciate that. I just wanna say that to you.

Calum Johnson 13:31 Yeah.

Chris Do 13:31 Right?

Calum Johnson 13:31 Of course.

Chris Do 13:31 Great job.

Calum Johnson 13:32 Thank you.

Chris Do 13:32 Uh, years one through three running my business was the most awkward, weird, frustrating, fear-inducing, imposter syndrome-building thing I could've done. I was rather impatient, Calum, in rushing to start a business when I shouldn't have started a business, and so I didn't have the template in which most people follow in order to, to mirror or to, to, uh, repeat what they've learned, right? So I'm a new graduate from school. I haven't done any real business before, and I decide I'm gonna just start a business. So I'm on these calls. I don't even know how these sales calls are supposed to go, 'cause there was nothing in school that prepared me for this, to have these kinds of conversations, to be looking at the projects and the budgets that I was looking at in this moment in time. And so I was scared out of my mind, and I, I fumbled so many calls. And during that first, I would say, six months to a year, it was just losing one job, job after the other. I would just lose 'em. Just looking at the money. There it goes, there it goes, there it goes. But luckily, more jobs were coming in, and I still would lose those jobs, and it became kinda depressing. It was, it was just heartbreaking. I would console myself by saying, "Wow, at least they're considering us amongst these giants of, in, in the industry." Like, the competition, the caliber w- in which we were competing against was so high, I said, "Okay, we deserve to lose. We're not that good." Later on I would realize a fundamental, like, just, just like a, the, the big epiphany, which is it's actually not the quality of the work. The quality of the work gets you considered, but it's how you handle yourself on the sales call that actually gets you the job, which gets you the yes from them. And so when I learned how to do that and I got enough reps in, that now becomes second nature to me, and then the confidence starts to build.

Calum Johnson 15:20 Hm. You know what's interesting? So I, um, I left my job to do this podcast full time about 15, 16 months ago, and I remember the first ... I moved back. I'm living in New York now, but I moved back to New Jersey 'cause that's where my mom lives. And I remember the first kinda, like, six to nine months, it was so, so difficult. And at the time I was doing the podcast and an agency, and every single call I would get on would be tough. I wouldn't know what to do. Uh, it was like every decision, even the things that felt like it should be easy, or people when they would speak about their businesses, it seemed easy for them, felt incredibly difficult for me. And I would go into these sales calls and it would feel like I'd get right to the point where they were about to say yes, and then they wouldn't say yes. They'd go, they'd go silent or they'd go to someone else. And so I'm curious for you because you mentioned that you kind of went through a similar period where it was like you just weren't getting what you wanted. I know from, from my story, there's one particular pitch moment that stands out of, like, that one really hurt. Like, that was the one where I put everything in and it still didn't go. Is there, is there an experience like that for you?

Chris Do 16:41 I think it's a cu- an, like, a cumulative experience. There are lots of them that hurt so bad. I'm not gonna lie to you. There were the jobs and the brands that we thought, "My God, that would make our careers if we could do this," or the budgets were so big, I'm like, "Gosh darn it. Couldn't we just get that?" And the one thing I will say, and, and hopefully as some form of comfort for many of you is, you think you had it bad, like you lost one or two jobs that you really wanted. Dude, over the lifetime in which I've been doing this, and it is in the millions of dollars of lost opportunity. Maybe, maybe over $10 million. I don't know, because those are the kinds of opportunities we're looking at in total. So I try not to focus so much on the lost opportunity because it can, it can really beat you down. It can make you second-guess yourself, which is going to only hurt you in the future. I try to look at each loss as what did I learn in that moment? There's an expression, in life, you either win or you learn. And so I'm like, "Okay, clearly did not win, so I'm going to have to squeeze this, this bitter fruit to, to, to pull out what was good about this so that I can not do that again."

Calum Johnson 17:46 Hm. You know what's, um, and I wanna get,

Calum Johnson 17:50 I wanna get into the personal branding stuff because I think there'll be a lot of people that are listening, and maybe they're sitting at work or they've just come back from the office, and they're doing something. They're dedicating their life to something that they know is not for them, and they can, like, feel it deep down. And, and I was in that moment, right, where it was just like- I was doing stuff at work. I'd get assigned on tasks. I was like, "This is not what I'm meant to be doing." And so the idea of a personal brand is deeply appealing because it's like, oh, I just ... My job is just to be me. Like, that is deeply appealing. And so I wanna start, I wanna get some of the information of how people can kinda start that process of even building that personal brand and marketing themselves. But just to begin, I feel like personal brand is such a overused term. Like, we hear it everywhere, and I think you're someone that really understands it. So, so when, when you even say, or when I say personal brand, to you what does that even mean?

Chris Do 18:59 Okay. Good question. And, and at risk of repeating some of the things I've said on, on different conversations, I w- I'll make sure your audience understands this. I have a distinctly different view on what a personal brand is, so before I tell you that, I wanna tell you what I think what most people use the word personal brand to mean, and then we can draw differences between those two. When most people say personal brand, I think what they're talking about is the crafting of social media assets such that it helps them to generate new business, leads, and sales. And so they're like, "Oh, my personal branding's on point." And then I look through their feed and I say, "Where are you in any of this stuff? It's you pitching something. It's you convincing me of something. It's you trying to establish yourself as some kind of person," and I can tell it's an act, and they're, they're propping it up. And so for me, it's radically different. Most people are not ready to develop their personal brand because most people are still struggling to find out who they are to, to be able to pay the bills and not worry about whether or not they have enough runway to last two or three months. And so when you're in a survival mode, you don't have the luxury to sit back and look at, how am I going to convey myself to the world? What is it that I'm ultimately meant to do? I'm not saying it has to be this way, but generally speaking, once you're able to deal with your basic needs, you start to com- contemplate the deeper meaning of your life experience and this journey that, that you're going on as a human being. So for me, personal brand, as it relates to the way that I understand it, is there are people that you'll see that are genuinely 100% authentic to who they are, and there's something really compelling about them that draws other people to them. And they're able to, by associating themselves with things and products and services and ideas, they're able to influence or sway people's opinions towards what it is that they like or prefer, and that's a very powerful thing that's happening. And the way that you do this, I, I forget, I think it's Shelly. I, I'm sorry I can't remember who said this, but different is better than better. And that's a clue as to what I mean when I talk about personal brand. So as we're growing up, we're all trying to fit into society. I've shared my own story and struggle about, like, trying to fit in, not to stand out. And if you do that enough times, you start to lose a sense of who you are because it's always other defined and not self-defined. And so we move into adult life. We just repeat the patterns of which we've learned. So now you're out there, you're making content, you're an editor, you're a salesperson, you build websites, you build identity designs, you do podcasts. And what you do is you model yourself after what you think other people want from you. So again, it's just this gap between the real you and the you that shows up, the persona, to the rest of the world. And so for me, personal brand is, like, when those two minimize their gap, the real you and the person that shows up. Now, I wanna caveat by saying this, that n- no one is truly 100% themselves all the time everywhere to everyone because it's not warranted. Okay? Like, when you're hanging out with your best friend, you can probably say and do things that are unfiltered that are okay because there's an acceptance between the two of you. But when you go out on a date or you go to the, the White House or you go to a, a diplomat or a celebrity's place, you may act a little bit differently, and it's because socially that's what you're supposed to do. You, you kind of turn up or down the amount of Calum that shows up, and it's appropriate to do that. But what I'm talking about are the people who very carefully curate and edit their life to show you only the very good things about them, their success, their wealth, their family, their quality time. They might show you a whole set of books behind them that they haven't read yet to try to impress you that they're very, uh, knowledgeable or literate or, uh, maybe academic in their nature, but that's all a prop. When we strip that away, we find out who the real person is, and it turns out the real you is a much more attractive person than the person you pretend to be every single day because we've become really good at sensing the fakery. We, we kinda know when someone's showing up being disingenuous, and it turns us off really quick.

Calum Johnson 23:13 Yeah. You know one of the interesting things when you even say that is you kind of have to go through this process of even knowing who the real you is.

Chris Do 23:21 Yeah.

Calum Johnson 23:22 I think, I think most people don't. I know there's periods in my life where I didn't even know. And so I'm curious actually from your story, is there a moment where, like, you thought that you were showing up as the real version of yourself, and then only in hindsight, so only upon reflection, did it become clear, you're like, "Oh, that wasn't even, that was the persona. That wasn't even the real version of Chris"?

Chris Do 23:49 Yeah. This happens actually to this day because we get into soc- social situations that make us feel uncomfortable, and, and it, it just, like, the child inside of you starts to feel afraid again, unsafe, and, and starts to behave slightly differently. And you have to check in with yourself often and just say, "Hey, stop that. What are you doing? Why are you behaving like this? Why are you saying these things?" Luckily, as you mature and you find greater sense of yourself and you figure out your identity Those moments happen less and less, and they're not as exaggerated. But we know this. When you're around... I, I'll, I'll tell you right now, if I'm around a bunch of tall people, I'm 5'8", I'm like, "Shoot, why am I so short?" It starts to make me aware of how I'm different. I have to check in with myself. Like, me stressing out over this around a bunch of tall people is like I'm gonna start acting a little squirrely, and I don't want to do that. And so I have to check in with myself. I'll give you an example though. When I'm around famous people, celebrities, there's always this moment where I have to ground myself and say, "You know what? They're just another person. Because they've achieved more or more people know them, doesn't make them any better or worse than you. We're just two humans liv- going through the human existence," right? And so there's a couple times when I'll bump into somebody who's famous and I'm like, "Ugh, what do I do?" Uh, and I start, like, getting really weird. And I, I remember one time, I'm at a bar. Rickson Gracie walks in. It's not a bar, it's a sushi restaurant, but I'm at the bar. And he sits down next to me. I'm like, "Shoot, that's Rickson Gracie." I love MMA. He's from, like the family, the royal family of, of Brazilian jujitsu. And I turned to my wife, like, "Uh, babe, that's Rickson Gracie. Don't say anything. Don't look." And she looks right away. I'm like, "Oh, babe, don't do that," right? And I didn't say anything 'cause I was so scared to say something 'cause I didn't want to interrupt him eating. Fate would have it, like, not a year later, same bar, same restaurant, he walks in again. I'm like, "This must be a place he goes to all the time," and there he is. And so this time I tell myself, "Yo, be real. Be real right now." And so I waited for a moment. I turned over and said, "Excuse me. I, I don't mean to interrupt you. I just wanted to let you know I'm a big fan. That's all. And I just wanted to shake your hand and, and congratulate you on all your accomplishments and the success you've had in both sports and entertainment." Then he turned over, stopped talking to his friend, and just started talking to me in the most generous way possible. And I gotta tell you, the thing I remember the most is that this man is a feared fighter, and his hands will break you, but when I shook his hand, he had the most soft, supple hands you could imagine. I'm like, that just, that was something that stuck with me. And I kept telling myself, "Man, if you just have the courage to be yourself and say what you think, cool things can happen to you."

Calum Johnson 26:33 Mm. You know what, you know what's, um... [lips smack] I think as humans, we have, like, this incredible radar for just sensing authenticity. And so, so often when we're afraid, I know when we're afraid to, like, make an approach or speak with someone, we're so worried about, "What am I gonna say?" It's like, "What, what are the words that are gonna come out my mouth?" But just the authenticity, the intent behind it, it actually makes the interaction work. It like, it makes it go well because the other person can feel it. Um, and just displaying that in the most kind of just honest way, the most genuine way is actually the best way to do it. Um, you know what? I

Calum Johnson 27:11 wanted to... One of the things that you spoke about, which I actually think is, is important, is this theme of being, like, in survival mode. And so, so often we go into, like, the tactics or, like, what, the how-to of building a personal brand, but there's a, there's a sense of, like, also just understanding the timing of, like, when is it even the right time in someone's life to be building a personal brand? Because if you're underwater financially or at your job or your living situation, it's not even, like, the right timing really to start, to start doing it. I, I'm just curious what advice you would kinda have for someone who's like, they feel underwater, and I think a lot of people feel like that in today's kind of economy and the way that things are. People are getting laid off, or there's, like, problems at their work. And they're like, "Can I even take the swing to do this?"

Chris Do 28:10 Mm.

Calum Johnson 28:11 Because when you're starting to build a personal brand, it feels like the biggest swing, right? Like, putting yourself out there in that way. And, and so what would you say to that person of, like, when they should even begin?

Chris Do 28:22 Okay. [lips smack] Good question. I, I, I think the answer's gonna depend on the individual, but I'll give you the broad o- view of what I, I think might work. If you look at creating content and defining your identity as a form of public journaling, I think it's a much less intimidating thought. Like, most of us are encouraged to journal. We journal to reflect on the day, to kind of highlight moments that we're grateful for and things that we wish we hadn't done and the way that we'll do it better next time, but we keep these thoughts locked up in our notebook. So if we start to look at social media or building your personal brand as a form of public journaling, and we dial up slowly over time the amount of transparency that we're gonna share, it's a gradual process. I think then it's less scary for someone to do. So you could be a 14-year-old person, you could be a 20-year-old person, or you can be a 77-year-old person, you could start right now. My son, for example, he is 20 years old, and he's been starting to explore sharing his thoughts, creating vlogs, and chronicling the things that he's doing, I think mostly just for himself. And I think it's a beautiful thing for me as a father to watch, and my wife and I will watch his content and say, "Oh, we're finding out a lot about his preferences and things that he might not say to us," because of context and timing and those kinds of things. But it's nice for us to see. And so if we remove the fact that we're parents and we're just watching a young person finding their voice in the world and how they're exploring and navigating things in art, in philosophy, or just how they think and process, it's a, it's a really neat thing to watch. And so if we just look at it like that versus, "Hey, I'm trying to grow the maximum number of followers or subscribers," or, "I want the maximum number of likes, and I'm only, I'm only going to create the kind of content I think other people want from me," I think that's, the first version is the much more natural way that you start to step into who you are and building community around shared beliefs and values. I'll give you one example in real life that I think might make sense. I'm an introvert, so that means, like, when I'm in a room full of strangers, I feel really uncomfortable. I, I, like I, I wanna jump out of my skin. That's how uncomfortable I feel. I'm really awkward. I don't know what to say. Seems like everybody has friends but me, and I'm just gonna stand there or sit at a desk. That's what I do. And I realize something. When I enter into a room where some people know me, my whole disposition, my emotional state changes dramatically. I'm like, "Oh, there's Calum. We talked earlier," or, "There's my buddy Rodrigo," or my friend Mary or somebody, and I'll walk over like, "Mary, it's been forever." Like, I give them a hug, and it's like, "What's going on with your life? Tell me what's new." I feel much more welcome and then therefore included in the conversation. What building a personal brand at scale on social media is something like that, where the people that you haven't yet met are getting to know you, so their, their ability to build connection accelerates really fast. The velocity of the friendship or the amount that we find that we have in common or the rapport that we can build accelerates really fast when you've done that work ahead of time. So like you said, you've been watching the channel since 2017 and, and that you know a lot about what it is I'm thinking, but I'm meeting you for the first time, and there's a familiarity with us that we don't have to be total strangers, and there's a warmth and a reception. So when you say, "Hey, I watched this. What are your thoughts on that?" I know you've done your homework, and au- automatically my guard is going to lower. Trust is being built between the two of us, and hopefully at some point in time down the line maybe a friendship might develop, and I think that's what it really means to start to develop your personal brand, and you can let a little bit of yourself out without fear of, like, massive blowback, and over time slowly just dial it up so that who you appear to be online is exactly who you are in real life.

Calum Johnson 32:14 Hmm. No, that's really good. I really like the way you think about it. And it, um, it reminds me of something that Gary Vee says when he says, "Document, don't create." I think in, in the beginning when you're starting, it's, like, such a pressure to create. Feels like you're having to do something outside of yourself, make something new that you've never done before. But if you're just documenting, it's like it takes the pressure off. Um, you know, I wanna, I wanna get deeper into this, how someone can start to build a personal brand and then also start to monetize and kinda see that way out of their situation. And I think the important place to start

Calum Johnson 32:50 is really with the self-awareness, and there's this quote that I heard you say in an interview. You said, "The problem is that people do not know who they are. They do not know what makes them them. They do not know what the origin story is. They do not know the moments in their life that have significance, so they cannot tell the stories. We need to develop a repeatable story, a story that people can share with others." And so in light with everything you've even said in this, in this conversation, that quote, like, makes sense. It resonates. But I'm also aware that that's, like, one of the most difficult things to do, is to, like, reflect on your own life. I don't know, like I'm 26, right? Reflect on 26 years of experiences and pull out stories that really show who I am. And so when someone comes to you and they, like, need guidance on how do I even identify the stories that are the unique, uh, like, stories that I can share with someone else and they'll resonate with them but they still kind of represent me, what advice do you give them in even identifying that?

Chris Do 33:59 There's a couple things you can do, and it's an exercise that I usually give in, at lectures or at workshops that I run on personal branding. I'll tell them right now, you already have a catalog of amazing stories, and they exist in your pocket. Like, literally they exist in your pocket. If you reach in, if you have pants, reach in and pull out your smartphone, there's a bunch of photographs in there, and photos are kind of an interesting thing. It's like what compels someone to take a photo? I think because they want to memorialize this moment. It's kinda weird. Like, we're not really living, we're not fully present, but we're semi-present because we wanna capture what's happening so that we can relive these moments later. So if it's a beautiful sunrise or sunset, you'll take a picture. If there's a leaf caught in a spiderweb that you think is really poetic, you'll take that picture. And if you're experiencing something with your friends, you're like, "Hey, somebody take a picture of us together 'cause we want to remember this night or this moment together." If you're on stage giving a talk, you'll take a picture. So if you scroll through your photographs in your photo album, you'll start to see things, and not all of them are signif- significant to you, but some of them are, and it's gonna stir up an emotion. Hopefully a positive one, but it could be, uh, an emotion that, of sadness and sorrow where you're grieving. It could be anything, because stories and emotion are what make our memories. Without this, without the story, without the emotion, we don't have a memory. And so the photos are a great way to kind of jumpstart a story that you want to tell. So what I do is I advise people to have a story bucket. Create a folder on your desktop, scroll through your photo album, and just drag the photos into that. So the next time you need to tell a story, just go through that folder and say, "There, there's an interesting moment right there. That reminds me of a story." And I'll give you an example, okay? Um, when my, my son was younger, he was in the Boy Scouts or the Cub Scouts, and we had a father-son trip to Catalina Island. So I have a photo of him wearing his life vest, and we're out there getting ready to get on a kayak. I was like, "Hey, let's capture this moment, buddy." We take a photo, but the most interesting thing happened to us out there in, in Emerald Bay in, at Catalina. We both went overboard on a kayak because we're staring at starfish or something. Not starfish, jellyfish. And we both looked at the same time. We tipped over. And what happened was we're pretty far out from the shore. It's a protected water, so it's not dangerous. We're wearing life vests, and we're trying to get on the kayak again. But my son is being pulled a little bit in a direction, and he starts to panic. Even though he knows how to swim, even though he has a life vest on, he starts to panic, and he goes, "Dad, Dad, I'm getting pulled under." I'm like, "Shoot, this is not good." I'm like, "What do you mean you're getting pulled under?" He goes, "The seaweed, it's pulling me under." He thinks they're like little arms and tendrils reaching out and grabbing his little feet and pulling him under. And I started to think, "Wait a minute. Kelp is not in deep water. Kelp is in shallow water. There must be a rock structure around here where the kelp is sticking to." So I said to him, and I yelled at him, I said, "Stand up." He's like panicking. He's like, "What do you mean stand up?" I'm like, "Stand up." And then he just goes like this, he just stands up. And then he has the silliest little grin on his face and he kinda chuckles, I went, [laughs] I'm like, "Okay, you're fine. We're fine. We're gonna get on the kayak." Eventually we get back on the kayak, and there's a story that I tell people, and the lesson in the story is this: that sometimes quite literally you can feel like the world is pulling you under, and that you let your fears kind of magnify with your imagination, that you feel like you can't take on the challenges in life. And quite literally sometimes all you need to do is stand up on your own feet and you'll be okay. So that's an example of going through a photo album, pulling out a moment, finding a story that's really just you. It's a story that only I can tell in that moment because it's a story that's special to my son and I, and there was a lesson baked in, and I'm able to share this with the world. So that's one thing that you can do. Just quickly scan through your photo album, find something you wanna share, and just tell the story. Get into the practice and habit of telling stories.

Calum Johnson 38:02 Hmm. That is so good, and you're such a good storyteller as well. Um-

Chris Do 38:06 Thank you so much.

Calum Johnson 38:07 You know, one of the things, so I, I wanna make it so real for people, and I think it's really good advice of like pull out your phone, go in the photo album, and you can go back years and years and years with iCloud and all this stuff. You can see, I can see photos from 2015 when I was a teenager. Um,

Calum Johnson 38:24 I guess the thing that I'm curious is like kinda the next step after that 'cause let's say I have this album with all of these photos, and I can even tell the stories from these different moments. When does like the brand business side of it come in? And, and here's what I mean when I say that. Let's say that I have an Instagram profile and I have a few pictures on there, and then I'm doing this kind of photo album exercise, and when I see something like a story that I have, I go on the story, like the Instagram Stories part of Instagram, and I'm just recording myself and I'm just telling back the story. How does it not start to just build... Like, is that me building an audience, or is it just gonna seem like these random collection of stories from my life? Like, at what point does it start to feel cohesive-

Chris Do 39:13 Hmm

Calum Johnson 39:13 ... and actually make sense that someone's like, "Oh, okay, I get, I understand what I'm getting when I follow this person"?

Chris Do 39:21 I totally get your question. It's a very nuanced question that you're asking, so let's try and kind of separate some of the components to this thing. We know that there are people on TikTok and on Instagram that have massive followings and this is literally all they do, they just tell you stories and they're really good storytellers. They tend to be a little older, or they have incredible life experiences that we can't help but to want to know more about. They're somewhat already famous, so they're telling these stories. Or they just happen to be incredibly good-looking and you're like, "I'll listen to whatever you want. You could read the Bible or the dictionary and I'll follow along." So you're saying, "Well, Chris, I have none of those things. What am I going to do? Am I totally screwed from participating in this personal branding game?" Absolutely not. You have something else that they might not have, which is an incredible skill, okay? You have an incredible skill and you do something better than most people. And the skill is acquired after putting in what Malcolm Gladwell calls the 10,000 hours of intentional practice. And it's not literal, it's just a, an idea. So if you lay brick, like you're a bricklayer. You're like, "Well, is there artistry in this?" I don't know. I think there is. And I think for me to watch someone spread the cement and, and lay a brick in so it's perfect, or building arches with it, is oddly satisfying and soothing for me. And so if you have a skill, you demonstrate the skill, and you can build an audience around your trade. And if your trade is something where it will benefit by you building an audience, this now meets two goals. I'm showing you how to do something, so I give value to you, my audience. It's visually satisfying. Maybe it taps into a little bit of ASMR. Doesn't require any language. And then now, now all of a sudden I'm thinking, "Well, gosh darn it. I need a new pathway, or I need a wall, or I need some repair done to my building. I'm gonna call this person." And this can be done for people who mow the lawn, who walk dogs, uh, because you have a skill and you do it better than most people. And you can do it in a way that feels fun and refreshing and gives me value in my life. Now if we elevate this up to someone who's a professional. So the reason why I have a personal brand that I think is pretty strong is because I think about all the kinds of lessons I've learned in my life, and I try to share that with people via informational s- carousels or reels or things like that. Eventually the audience starts to build and they follow you because of the value you give. But something weird happens here, some- sometimes something that's very paradoxical. If you don't show them who you are at some point, they're like, "This is some generic robot account who keeps creating this kind of content. I like it, but I'm becoming less and less interested in it." So now you have to start to weave in the personal stories, the my son kind of getting pulled in by the seaweed with here's how you negotiate your next contract with a potential client. So you start to weave those two together and they make a beautiful tapestry. So there's value plus personality, that is the personal brand.

Calum Johnson 42:15 Hmm. Okay, you know what? And, and this is the thing that I've experienced, um, firsthand. There's kind of different levels, uh,

Calum Johnson 42:22 when you start sharing more of yourself online, you start sharing more content, there's different levels to it, right? So in the beginning, almost level one, you're just trying to post. You're like, okay, before I was just a consumer of content. I would just watch other people's stuff. I'd watch Chris Do's stories or scroll through his carousels. And now I'm finally getting to the point that I'm a producer. I'm actually posting my own stuff, and I'm doing it fairly consistently. So let, let's call that level one. Level two is actually the things that I'm posting are getting a certain level of engagement, of resonance. People are DM'ing me. People are commenting. People are following. And so what is the skillset of being able to go from level one to level two? Is it, is it just purely your ability as a storyteller? Like, if someone is in that moment where they're like, "I'm posting, but it's not going anywhere," like, what is it that they're missing? What's the missing component?

Chris Do 43:20 Hmm. Okay. There's, there's this idea, it's not a new idea, but one worth sharing again, which is writers have to read, right? And filmmakers have to watch movies. If you want to be better at content creation, you also have to be pretty good at consuming content. So the first phase really is just observation, like what, what do I like? And you don't have to be so picky right now. You can follow a bunch of people, and over time you're gonna say, like, "Oh, I, I thought I liked that, but I don't like that," and you start to get a sense of, like, what you might want to do in the world. And we model ourselves after the people that we like, and this is a very natural way to learn. So you can say, "I love the way Calum designs his background, or the way he comes prepared." Like, I'm looking at you right now, and you're holding your iPad, and I was like, "Why don't I use my iPad for questions? I don't know what I'm looking at. Maybe it's my notebook, but that seems like a pretty smart way to have a screen in front of you and be connected and present, but be able to ask certain questions." So we learn by looking at other people and being really observant, and then peeling away, like what, what are things I might try myself? So in the next phase what we have to do is we have to be willing to look at it as a laboratory. We're going to do a lot of experiments, and we're not going to overly invest in any one thing. We're not gonna overproduce it. Uh, we don't wanna spend a month writing a script, hiring a bunch of friends, shooting and then, shooting and then editing, because that's just too much emotional and probably financial investment into something. So we're gonna try lots of things, and we're gonna find out what gives us joy, and that's all. All we need to do in phase one and two. The next phase would be, like, the things that give me joy also seem to resonate with a specific audience. If those two things are aligned, we might say, "Here are the three things I like doing the most that seem to have the biggest impact on people," and we might wanna be a little bit more refined in the next phase, where we're going to say, "Okay, here's the hypothesis now. I have some data, and it feels good. Like, this is what I want to do, not what they want me to do," and you start to create content around that. This is really critical. I heard a YouTuber, her name is Sara Dietschy, and she said that, "I do five for them and one for me." There's something like that, meaning I make five videos of what you want, and then I make one just for me. I think even that ratio, although it sounds pretty good, is not a good ratio, because five out of six times you show up not being yourself, not doing the things that give you a lot of joy. And I think it, the world would be better if we just did one for one. Like, I'm doing this for me. It so happens to be for you as well. And if you do one for one, you could do this forever. Somebody asked me this recently and they said, "Hey, Chris, how do you avoid burnout? How do you just keep creating content?" I'm like, "Why would I be burnt out doing the thing that I love doing the most?" I love to teach, I like to experiment, and I like to make an impact on people's lives. This is the source of my life's energy. I don't wanna do less of that. I wanna do more of it, 'cause I'm having a lot of fun right now. So what, what people mess up all the time is they look at what's popular, what is getting a lot of engagement, and they forgot the component of, like, what gives me joy. Those two things must come together if you wanna do this for any period of time, 'cause otherwise it'll feel like you just added another job to your life, and no one wants another job.

Calum Johnson 46:35 Hmm. You know, that's actually really... It's really important. So you have this kind of experimentation phase which I, which is, like, key, right? Where you're just trying different things. It's like you're throwing the paint on the wall. You're trying to see what sticks and what people resonate with. And then you start to figure out, like, okay, people love the 30-second reels that I do. And you start observing other channels, and you figure out the format and everything that can work for you. And

Calum Johnson 47:02 once you start to get clearer and clearer with specifically what the audience is liking, it's so easy, and I've felt this, and I still go through this now, you start chasing the algorithm, right?

Chris Do 47:13 Yeah.

Calum Johnson 47:14 You start, oh, okay, whenever we do that sort of episode, goes off. And so you just keep doing it again and again. That blueprint, you keep rolling it out. And to your point, it, like, it starts to take the joy out of it. It starts to become that job that you're showing up for at 9:00 AM every day. Okay, go through this routine again. And so I'm curious, 'cause I, I, I'm pretty sure you've had this in your journey. Where was kind of the point in your story with content creation where, like, you were chasing, you were, like, chasing the algorithm? And then what was the point when it started to kinda come together where it was like, yes, we get the performance, but it's also I'm making content that I would make anyway. Like, the love is there. Like, what, what was that?

Chris Do 48:01 Okay. Another good question. I'm gonna answer this question a little bit differently than the way you've asked it, because I'm not sure, okay? And you can call foul on me if you want to.

Calum Johnson 48:10 [laughs] Okay, go for it.

Chris Do 48:10 Okay. I'm 42 years old before I make my first YouTube video. I'm pretty comfortable in who I am and how I wanna show up in the world, and I have to just get over the fact that a lot of people are going to see me and hear me say the things that I think and feel that I would say in private, but not on video. So I'm really worried about the permanence of video content that's distributed through social media, 'cause at some point someone pulls something out of the box and say, "Hey, you remember when you said that and when you believed that? See, you were wrong." Right? So I was fearful of that, and that's a natural fear for a lot of people to have. But i- already kind of in my developed self I'm like, "Eh, I'm gonna show up and do what I want." If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I don't really, really care. Just like how we were talking about building your personal brand is the journey towards discovering who you are, healing all the broken parts, and coming together as this cohesive whole, the integrated self versus the disintegrated self. That is what I'm interested in. So when I make content, sometimes it pops and sometimes it doesn't. I'm not sitting there thinking, "Well, the latest trend is to put a red box and put flashing subtitles everywhere." And young people love to tell me how I'm not following any trends and how they call me a boomer, even though I'm not a boomer. Like, "Boomer, you should be doing this and not that." I'm like, "You know what? I see that you have 4,000 followers. If that works for you, you do that, but this is what I'm doing. This is not for you. It's not for anybody, it's just for me." And I don't get depressed that the, the, the, the, uh, the post that I made doesn't pop. I don't really care. I've already resigned myself to believe this, Calum. We make really boring content to help people make money. The fact that anybody shows up is a surprise and a miracle every single day. That doesn't mean I'm stupid about content creation because I look at how, how the, uh, retention graph works and I say, "Okay, why isn't that part working?" And that's just data. That's good data for me to make sure that the thing that I wanna say is being received in the right way. And so we use data and we'll challenge the team, like, "What are we calling this video? And how are people naturally searching for this? And what does the thumbnail look like as a relation to the title itself?" And we play. And it's, for me, it's just a game. And, and it's funny because at the office we'll get into like these little things like, "I wanna change the title of this." I'm like, "No, I wanna change it to this." And it's just fun for us to try this and say, "Okay, you think you know best. Let's go and let's see what happens." And sometimes I'm wrong, sometimes I'm right. That's all. And for my team who's watching this, most of the times I'm right. I'm just putting it out there.

Calum Johnson 50:35 [laughs] I like that. I like that. It's almost like you have to, um, if you treat the algorithm like a game, it actually becomes fun again, um, just figuring it out. Um, you know, I wanna be considerate, 'cause I know we're right at 3:59. You have like 10, 15 more minutes, Chris?

Chris Do 50:52 I can give you another 10.

Calum Johnson 50:53 Okay, cool.

Chris Do 50:54 Yeah.

Calum Johnson 50:54 Let's do it. 'Cause I wanna talk about, uh, monetization.

Chris Do 50:58 Okay.

Calum Johnson 50:58 And where, where I wanna go, let, let's assume

Calum Johnson 51:00 that, you know, I've gone through my experimentation phase. Um, I've started to figure out what works. Maybe I've gotten my first, I don't know, 10,000, 20,000 followers. I'm producing content that I like, but it's also resonating with people. They're commenting, the engagement, all of that is good. And now I'm starting to think about, okay, really wanna leave my job here. [laughs] Like, I really wanna get out of this, uh, out of this office. What is kind of the signs of I'm in a place where I can actually start to monetize? Uh, like, what, what kind of comes to, comes to mind for you on that?

Chris Do 51:42 Okay. I, I think the word monetize is complicated, it has many components to it, and I wanna explain a couple different ways in which we can monetize so that we can do this more as our full-time thing and not as a part-time thing. Let's say you have a full-time job somewhere, and I'm speaking to my audience mostly, and you're a graphic designer. You design logos and identity systems, and you're pretty good at doing this. And then on the side, you're developing content to teach people how you design logos, how you make decisions. You're critiquing and reviewing other people's logos, and it's starting to take off, and something really interesting is happening here. You know it because a couple things. Number one, the followers, the engagement, the, the amount of people sharing and saving your posts. But you also know it in the DMs because people are gonna say, "Hey, I love the way you think, the way you work. Would you consider working with my company?" And so opportunities are going to naturally present themselves to you. When you act out of generosity and you give value to people, some of it comes back. People reciprocate, and it's pretty awesome. I'll give you an example right now. This is a silly one, but I've done role plays where I do this thing where I was not allowed to, like, say no to the client, and the client was really a nasty client. It's a role play. And I said, "You know what? Um, you can either pay me $1,000 or I will take 50% of the revenue moving forward for every new customer that you get above and beyond what you currently get." And everybody's like, "Ha ha, this idiot. No one would ever agree to that stupid..." You know, and they're just trying to rip me apart in the comments. Whatever. You know, within the last couple of weeks, I've received more than two offers where they say, "Is this a real offer? 'Cause we need help with our company." And they're not selling small things, they're sp- selling very expensive things. They're, "We need help with marketing. We would be willing to negotiate with you to give you a percentage of future revenue." That video was not even meant to be a lead gen or to sell me at all. It's about teaching people a concept. So even when you're trying not to sell something, opportunities will appear if what you create is valuable for other people. It's kind of mind-boggling that people are watching that video thinking that it's real, and that even if it's not real, they still wanna work with me. It's kind of wild stuff. So in this case, the designer has opportunities in their DMs, and they're gonna field those opportunities, and they're going to do that work to a certain point where if 50% of your total revenue comes from your side hustle, so if you get paid $100,000 a year to do design work as a staff person, and you get $50,000 of opportunities in your DMs, it's a pretty good time for you to start thinking about putting in your notice and doing this full time. That's one. Number two is when people think about monetization, they think about brand deals and sponsorships where companies send you free stuff, they get you to talk about it. That's pretty natural. So you can use affiliate promotion codes, which some people do and make a lot of money doing this. I have a buddy who, who, who blogs all the time, and he does a million dollars in revenue in affiliate marketing alone. That's pretty wild, because he commands a big enough audience that when they're there, they click on the products that they like, and he gets a small percentage of that. And the percentages for Amazon could be 4% to 5% for affiliate marketing, or for some people who make products, could be 60% to 70%. What that's saying to me is the person who makes those products values your ability to sell it more than they value their ability to make it. So they're willing to give you the majority of the revenue so that they can continue to sell products. That's a signal to everybody who's listening to this that your ability to command attention, to draw attention to the things that you like and prefer is actually very valuable. The risk and the mistake that people make is they monetize too soon. I want you to think of it like this. Here's the metaphor that I would like to make. Let's, let's pretend like you've planted a tree, like an apple tree. Apple tree's gonna produce fruit for the rest of its life for you, but if you cut that tree early, if you prune too early, it may never produce any fruit. So I say as, for as long as possible, let that tree mature and then start pruning and picking the fruit because it's gonna produce food for you for the rest of your life.

Calum Johnson 55:51 Let that tree mature. Yeah. You wanna see it come to fruition. You wanna see it give you the fruit.

Chris Do 56:01 Right.

Calum Johnson 56:03 You know what? I want to, um, I wanna give you two separate kinda scenarios. I think this will be really good for people-

Chris Do 56:08 Okay

Calum Johnson 56:08 ... actually, is I think we all kinda go through this experience in our sales journey. There's the point where we're, like, trying so hard to sell something, and I'm hard pitching it. I'm bringing a- I'm trying to listen to you, give you back all the things I think you're gonna like. I'm trying to make my pitch perfect for you. And this can be, like, one-to-one, like I'm trying to sell a service, like I'm trying to do like an agency offer. It could be I'm a big creator with an audience and I'm trying to, like, promote a product for a sponsor. And no matter what I do, I cannot sell. That is the one reality. Then there's the other person which is, and I, I know you know him actually, Daniel Priestley. He talks about being oversubscribed. Having like, if you're the, the new shop on the block and you have like a line around the corner. Like, people cannot wait to buy from you. And so if we take those two different realities, what is ... And you almost take a bird's-eye view and you observe what each of those two groups are doing, what is the difference? Because I know that there's, there's people right now, right, that they might even be getting clicks and attention online, but it doesn't lead to sales. It doesn't lead to people buying from them. And so the people that have that line around the block, people are literally waiting to give their money. They're oversubscribed. What is it that they're doing that the other party is not?

Chris Do 57:40 Okay. Lots of things to unpack there. Okay. We, we know this: if you chase, people run. So when you're desperate for a sale and you're pushing, most people will just run. They don't literally run, they figuratively run in their mind as saying, "Send me a proposal," and then you never hear from them again. Or they're like, "Great, great, great. Thanks so much. Talk to you soon," and they hang up and you never hear from them again. This is the result of you pushing for something so badly that the other person doesn't feel seen, heard, respected, or cared for, and trust has been broken at that point. Conversely, if there's another business that it seems like there's a lot of people who want it, where there's greater demand than the supply, there's something internal to all of us that is a trigger that we want it now. It's like the law of contrast. And, and it's an illusion in many cases, and it's something that if you know that it's not real, then you can actually create that even though it's not real, but you know that it works. This is where people may struggle with this idea that perception is reality. When I perceive something to be in demand or scarce or rare, then, and it's, it's like a, like a time-bound thing where it's, it's going to expire really soon, I tend to act with greater urgency because I have to. And you've seen this countless times. We, we re- recently had this restaurant. We walk in and the doorman says to us, "Do you have a reservation?" We're like, "No." He goes, "Okay, but I'll let you up." He lets us up, and then we meet the receptionist and she's like, "Do you have a reservation?" We're like, "No. Can you fit us in?" She goes, "Let me see what I can do." And eventually she seats us in a place that could seat 50 people, and there's eight of us in there. What are they doing? What they're doing is creating false scarcity, and this idea that not just anybody can get in. Some brands go to the extreme. The example that Daniel Priestley gives all the time is Louis Vuitton, and they're the world's most successful, I think, or most valuable fashion brand. What do they do? Security guard. There's a line. You can't even get in to give them money. It's really wild. And when you get in, it takes them time for you to find somebody to help you, too. It's, it's kinda wild stuff. And they don't jam-pack the store with stuff. It's displayed and then they put a lot of in- inventory in the back so that the salesperson can really be a little bit more curatorial when they show you things. When they see what you're interested in, they can guide you through the process. So anything that you can do to create this feeling that it's scarce, it's valuable, and that there's, you have to act with urgency, is going to help you gain some leverage when you're having that sales conversation with people. So for example, if you had re- reached out to me and said, "Hey, Chris, I'd love to have you on the podcast. I just wanna give you a caveat that it's a six-month lead time. That's why I'm reaching out to, to you now." That could be the furthest thing from the truth, but I'm like, "Shoot. I don't know who Calum is, but all of a sudden, like, if I wanna be on his show and there's a whole bunch of people waiting to be on his show, I better make that decision right now." So you have to understand, like, how we're wired, and this is why people will send you promotions in your inbox, in your DMs that say, "Only one left," or, "Act before the end of the day and get this additional bonus They're using all these things to trigger in your mind, "If I don't act now, I'm going to lose this opportunity." And it's this loss aversion bias that we have. It's also why people give you a free trial version of something that you can use for five days, 'cause even if you don't love it, you, you like less the idea of losing that thing that you don't even love. It's kinda wild.

Calum Johnson 1:01:20 Hmm. You know what, he- here's where I wanna end, 'cause I know we have to get out of here, is I... It, it makes complete sense what you're saying, and we see it, you see it in everything. You see it even when you go, um, to like a bar or a club where they'll keep a line outside of the place even though it's empty inside to create this kind of demand, this perceived demand. And it makes sense that for the person that's, like, winning, for the person that's selling everything, that they're truly sold out, it's almost like the rich get richer, right? Like, it's-

Chris Do 1:01:52 Right

Calum Johnson 1:01:52 ... the, the fact that you're doing well is enabling you to do even better. On the other hand, momentum is so popa- powerful it works the other way as well. If the last 10 sales calls or the last, um, you know, 10 times that you did a brand sponsorship or whatever, it didn't sell product, the next time you're going or making a pitch to a brand or whatever, you're gonna be there, like, with that energy of, "I really need this." And so the person that, for the person that's in kind of that, that losing cycle where they're, they're doubting their ability to close the sale, they're doubting their ability to go to the brand and, you know, act like they have this abundance when really they don't, what is, like, one piece of advice you would give that person of, like, it just starts to reverse that momentum loop, like something that they can just start to focus on?

Chris Do 1:02:46 The answer is, is surprisingly simple on this one, Calum. People are stuck in the vicious cycle, and so, like, bad things happen, so then now we're even more scared, and because we're scared we don't get opportunities. Because we don't get opportunities, bad things happen. Then you're right, the rich get richer, right? Uh, the rich have opportunities. They feel more confident, and then they have more opportunities, so they are more confident and get more opportunity. It's just like, what? How do we get out of this? And this is the really weird thing. It begins with you just behaving differently, and it's really wild, right? So I have a friend, his name is Carlos Segura, and he's known for having a little bit of an attitude when it comes to design. He printed on his business card the rules of engagement. You do this, I do that. And a lot of creative people feel very like, "Oh, this is like, um, this feels really cocky," or you think very highly of yourself. And they say, "Oh, Carlos, you could have these terms and the making it difficult for clients to work with you because you're Carlos Segura. Like, you're already famous. That's why you can be so demanding of your clients." He goes, "No, because I'm demanding of my clients, I get to be Carlos Segura." It's just a flip in the, in the perception. If you can take on one client this month, and that's all you can do, that's the only client you have, you can say, "I'm booked up for this month." They don't need to know how many clients you have. You just say, "I'm booked up for this month, but I'm looking for new opportunities starting in August," or whatever. And so you're already telling people. You're signaling, "I have finite capacity. And if you'd like to work with me, I just wanna let you know that the next window that opens up, please reach out, because otherwise you're gonna lose that opportunity again." Priestley refers to this as with or without you energy. I'm good with you, I'm good without you, and everything's going to be okay. So when you adopt this mindset, this belief, and you really believe it in your core, you have a gift to share with the world, and if they don't hire you, that's their loss. It's not yours. And then all of a sudden you get booked and you get paid more. That'll make you feel more confident, and you're going to reverse the cycle, and you're gonna move into the virtuous cycle versus the vicious cycle.

Calum Johnson 1:04:47 Yeah. You know what it is I love when I, speaking about, speaking with you is, like, it's just, like, the principles that you share, which is, like, you don't even need to know the direct how to. You just need to understand the principles and it's gonna give you everything else. So Chris, man, thank you so much for, for coming on. Thank you for so much for c- making this happen. And whenever you're in New York, we need to get to this studio. We need to do another one. It'll be very cool.

Chris Do 1:05:11 Absolutely. Part two is coming. My son is in New York, so I hope to visit him, and when I do I'll reach out to you.

Calum Johnson 1:05:18 Sweet. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate it.

Chris Do 1:05:20 Thank you. My pleasure.

Calum Johnson 1:05:21 Thank you so much for watching this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. It's really a dream for me that I get to do this. It's surreal that this is what I do full time and every week. So if you enjoy the content, if you enjoy the conversation, the stories, please hit that subscribe button. It helps us immeasurably with growing the channel, with getting guests, all of those things. So please hit that subscribe button, and I'll see you next time.