The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantAI, Commencement Speeches, and Why Human Thinking Still Matters | The Curiosity Shop
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70 min read · 13,784 words- 0:00 – 3:04
Welcome to The Curiosity Shop
- AGAdam Grant
Hey, everyone. In this episode, Brené and I are gonna take, we're gonna take on AI in a way that I've never really thought about before. Uh, we're gonna talk about commencement speeches and what makes a great one. We're gonna talk about why the booing happened and how it might have been prevented, the role of moral imagination in taking on technological change. We're also gonna talk about some of the challenges we're facing with AI, particularly when collaborators dump thoughtless, maybe AI-generated content on us, and then how we respond to that, and whether a collaborator should have to disclose AI use when they have it. And I think we're also gonna land on maybe a high note around what great content actually does. [upbeat music] Hey, Brené. [glass clinking]
- BBBrené Brown
Hi, how are you?
- AGAdam Grant
I have been watching too many commencement speeches, which has been fun, but also-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God, it's w- oh, I love it
- AGAdam Grant
... slightly distracting.
- BBBrené Brown
I love a commencement address. Not all of them, but I love a good one.
- AGAdam Grant
It's the only thing I like about graduation.
- BBBrené Brown
Same, actually. Yeah. And man, when they, when they deliver, they just deliver.
- AGAdam Grant
So good.
- BBBrené Brown
And when they don't, they do not. It, they're tough.
- AGAdam Grant
But we don't re-watch the ones that didn't.
- BBBrené Brown
No. And have you given a commencement address?
- AGAdam Grant
I have given three of them, I think. You?
- BBBrené Brown
Three, actually. One was a medical school graduation, and then two of them were the University of Texas at Austin, and the first one was virtual because of COVID. It was the first time in, like, the history of the university they had to cancel commencement. So I had to do it, yes. And then I was like, "Woo, that was hard," and I had to write something that would translate well to virtual. And then they're like, "Oh, great, um, we're back and we're in person, so you can do this one too." I'm like, "No, I can't write two commencements a- addresses back to back."
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- BBBrené Brown
And yeah, they were hard. But, um, it was fun, and the medical school one was really fun, too.
- AGAdam Grant
I think one a decade should be the limit.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I, I have to say, to be honest with you, I don't know that I would do one now. The environment's tough.
- AGAdam Grant
I don't think I would either. You don't wanna get booed?
- BBBrené Brown
You wouldn't? [laughs] No, I, I actually don't wanna get booed. [laughs] But I, I don't know. I, I don't, I don't know. It's, it's wild out there. Uh, you wanna talk-
- AGAdam Grant
It is
- BBBrené Brown
... about the booing?
- AGAdam Grant
Well, we definitely have to talk about that.
- BBBrené Brown
Have you, have you seen the booing?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. And I also, I just, I don't think you need a professor as your commence- commencement speaker. Like, we teach entire classes. We spend lots of time with students. Go invite somebody who's not normally on campus to address the audience.
- BBBrené Brown
Amen. I love it. I'm with you. Hear, hear.
- AGAdam Grant
What are your, what are your favorite commencement speeches of all time? You must have a list.
- BBBrené Brown
I have a list, but really, I'm gonna pull it up. I have a list, but more importantly than a list,
- 3:04 – 7:03
The George Saunders Speech
- BBBrené Brown
I have two paragraphs in one commencement address that stuck with me. Like, I can't even tell you how it moved me. This is George Saunders.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh.
- BBBrené Brown
Syracuse.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
You know it? 2013.
- AGAdam Grant
Kindness.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. Yes. And so let me read it to you. So he, he does, he, he does this really funny part where he says, "Here's what I don't regret," and he tells some really terrible stories ab- and then he says, "I don't regret any of those." And then he, then he says, "But here's something I do regret. In seventh grade, this new kid joined our class. In the interest of confidentiality, her convocation speech name will be Ellen. Ellen was small, shy. She wore these blue cat-eye glasses that at the time only old ladies wore. When nervous, which was pretty much always, she had a habit of s- of taking a strand of hair into her mouth and chewing on it. So she came to our school in our neighborhood and was mostly ignored, occasionally teased. 'Does your hair taste good?' That sort of thing. I could see this hurt her. I still remember the way she'd look after such an insult, eyes cast down, a little gut kicked, as if having just been reminded of her place in things. She was trying as much as possible to disappear. After a while, she'd drift away, hair strand still in mouth. At home, I imagined after school her mother would say, you know, 'How was your day, sweetie?' And she'd say, 'Oh, fine.' And her mother would say, 'Making any friends?' And she'd go, 'Yeah, sure, lots.' Sometimes I'd see her hanging around alone in her front yard, as if afraid to leave it. And then they moved. That was it. No tragedy, no big final hazing. One day she was there, next day she wasn't. End of story. Now why do I regret that?" This is the piece that kills me, Adam.
- AGAdam Grant
Me too.
- BBBrené Brown
"So now why do I regret that? Why, 42 years later, am I still thinking about it? Relative to most of the other kids, I was actually pretty nice to her. I never said an unkind word to her. In fact, I sometimes even mildly defended her. But still it bothers me. So here's something I know to be true, although it's a little corny and I don't quite know what to do with it. What I regret most in my life are failures of kindness. These" Oh my God, this, this sentence. "Those moments when another human being was there in front of me suffering, and I responded sensibly, reservedly, mildly."
- AGAdam Grant
Devastating.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. Just-
- AGAdam Grant
And so important
- BBBrené Brown
... only Geo- only George Saunders could write like that. But I just think, "What do I regret most in my life are failures of kindness, those moments when another human being was there in front of me suffering, and I responded sensibly, reservedly, mildly."
- AGAdam Grant
It's- It's such a, it's a novel way of delivering a timeless message.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm. It's beautiful.
- AGAdam Grant
No one ever looks back and says, "Yeah, I wish I was less kind to other people."
- BBBrené Brown
No. No. You know, and when we look back, I mean, having studied courage for so many years now, we do regret times when someone was suffering and we could've been brave, and it would've been unpopular, but we chose to respond, and this is the worst part, mildly, reservedly, and sensibly. Ugh, so beautiful. Okay, tell me your favorites.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Well, he di- he didn't even do anything wrong. He just failed-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- AGAdam Grant
... to do something that he thought was right.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. That's important.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, this, this reminds me, there was a, there was a study a while back by Parch and Kinner. It was a content analysis of commencement speech themes, so you're gonna love this. Like, what do, what do commencement speakers talk about? And
- 7:03 – 11:19
The 5 Most Common Commencement Speech Themes
- AGAdam Grant
one, one, two, three, four, I think the top five, if I remember correctly, going in reverse order. Number five, never give up. Number four, be true to yourself. Number three, expand your horizons. Number two, do the right thing. And number one, help others.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, those-
- AGAdam Grant
George Saunders nailed number one and number two, and kinda number four too
- BBBrené Brown
... I mean, those are like the Five Commandments.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] I know.
- BBBrené Brown
In simpler terms.
- AGAdam Grant
I thought there were more than five.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, no.
- AGAdam Grant
That's what it is.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, but these are the five commencement commandments, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
That, that used to bother me a little bit. It, it feels like they're homogeneous, they're trite, they become cliches. But the way that George did it, he, he, he pulled you into the story, and-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... he also, like, thinking about regretting not being kind, it's such a different way of delivering the message than saying, "Well, you know, you should help other people." And maybe that's what we need. Maybe we need to be reminded of core values in fresh ways.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. In fresh ways, and I think, you know, that's what I, the commencement address that I had to deliver, I had to take it into consideration, into consideration that here were these kids missing their college graduation-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... because of the pandemic. And so my whole theme of it was the world will not ready itself for you. You know, you're going to have to find a way to be ready for the world no matter what it brings. And then I, I wove it around not getting into UT for three years. Um, yeah. And so-
- AGAdam Grant
Wait
- BBBrené Brown
... 'cause I did-
- AGAdam Grant
You didn't get into UT?
- BBBrené Brown
No. Uh-uh. I got into UT-
- AGAdam Grant
What?
- BBBrené Brown
... as a high, I got into UT as a high school student, but my parents were in the midst of a vicious divorce, so I leveraged that and did, like, a little poster presentation on why, instead of going to UT, which I did get into UT. I think it was the only... I, I applied to UT and Fashion Institute of Technology, that was it, um, in New York. Why I could get through UT in three years and hitchhike through Europe for a year, and they were so embroiled in their own divorce that they ended up letting me do that. And when I got back, my life went off the rails, and I went in and out of college, junior colleges, St. Mary's in San Antonio for, like, f- three or four years, had a .05 GPA, got a job for AT&T, got promoted three times, and then finally quit AT&T to beco- go back to college full time when I was, like, 25 or 26, and they wouldn't let me in. And for f- like, four semesters consecutively, I would get a 4.0 at the junior college, and they'd say, "No, another one. Your GPA was so bad." And so I told the story about, you know, I told the story about the perseverance there, and how, what I learned from it and how hard it was. And so, and I thought it was interesting 'cause it just, things sometimes don't go as planned. So, but it was-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... it was basically those five things wrapped in a very specific story.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, you, you must've been, like, during those three years, you must've been thinking every day, like, "This is perfect material for my future commencement speech."
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
That's how you got through it, right?
- BBBrené Brown
No, I was thinking, "God, I've gotta go into the TCBY, um, and then change into my waiter outfit, and then take a bus to the restaurant where I was waiting tables to work my way through school." So I was thinking, like, "This is Shitsville, man." Um-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... when is this going to end?
- 11:19 – 14:04
The Commencement Speeches Adam Loves
- AGAdam Grant
so I'm just thinking about commencement speeches that I've loved over the years, and there are so many. Like, I think about, I mean, no list of commencement speeches is complete without Bill McRaven, Admiral McRaven, Make Your Bed.
- BBBrené Brown
Let's go Hook 'em Horns. Make your bed.
- AGAdam Grant
That was a UT speech. It was so good, and I make my bed now sometimes 'cause I'm afraid of him.
- BBBrené Brown
No, I mean-
- AGAdam Grant
Uh-
- BBBrené Brown
... what a lovely guy.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, such a gem. Uh, I've loved, I've loved every C- Conan O'Brien commencement speech. Those are, uh, I think those are always just hilarious and delightfully self-deprecating. Ellen DeGeneres gave one that I thought was such a good, it was such a good challenging of one of the, the truisms that u- usually shows up, which is follow your passion. Uh, sh- I'm not, I'm not gonna do this justice 'cause her delivery was, was exceptional, but she, she says something like, "Follow your passion. Stay true to yourself. Never follow someone else's path, unless you're in the woods and you're lost and you see a path.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Then, by all means, you should take that path."
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] That's funny.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
That's funny.
- AGAdam Grant
Go Ellen. And then I think last year Steve Carell gave a great commencement speech, also on kindness.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, God, I loved it. Oh, I loved it. What was your favorite part of it?
- AGAdam Grant
I, you know, I think I, I loved his case for, for being kind to other people. I, I thought, like George Saunders, but in a very different way, from a very different voice. Uh, he, he did it in a way that, like, it made it feel fresh and new. But I also just [laughs] I loved when he said, "Don't use ChatGPT for personal emails. That's just sad."
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] That's gonna be a good transition to the stuff we're gonna talk about today. I've got big questions for you.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. Where are we going? All right. We, we have to talk-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... about the booing.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Yes. And one thing I wanna add is I wanna add Abby Wambach's commencement address at Barnard, who, that became Wolfpack, her book.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, I have to say I've read that book 10 times. I give it away all the time. I have listened to it in the car with my kids. Um, the leadership lessons in that book, point and run. When you score the goal, the first thing you should do is point at the person who gave you the assist. When someone else scores the goal, the first thing you should do is run to hug that person. If you can't ... I mean, this, we have this framed in our office, one of the quote, one of the lessons from Wolfpack, which is, um, "If you can't lead from the bench, you can't lead anywhere." Um, so I think Wolfpack and the commencement address that gave birth to that was one of my tops as well. I gotta give a shout out there. Okay,
- 14:04 – 18:29
The Commencement Speech Booing Controversy
- BBBrené Brown
the booing. The booing this year. The booing heard around the world. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, man, I, I, I found those tough to watch.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. And I, I have to tell you, this is probably not a, this is not most people's reaction, but I felt for the commencement speakers who were getting booed. One, one, because anyone who's ever spent time, time on stage knows how hard it is to stand up in front of an audience and put yourself out there and bomb. And granted, anybody who's giving a commencement speech ought to have thick enough skin they can [laughs] handle it. Like, this, this should not be the moment that tests your resilience. But that, that, you know, I thought coupled with the fact that, uh, the speakers I heard booed at least were trying to say something helpful to the audience about, "Look, you know, AI is upending the world. Here's how to think about it. Here's how to, you know, how to survive and thrive in that world." I'm like, "W- why, why are you booing that?" And then I thought about it, and there are a lot of [laughs] reasons why, why the boos happened. But that's where I started. How about you?
- BBBrené Brown
Mm. Okay, so you have to, you have to understand first of all, this is ... You'll have to go into boo etiquette.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Wait, there's boo etiquette? Boo-tiquette?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. Oh, there's boo-tiquette. Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] There's, there's boo-tiquette. That's a thing we're hearing.
- AGAdam Grant
Don't mispronounce that one. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Yeah, no, don't. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
So one, um, as you can tell from my Houston Oilers hat, um, today, I was raised obviously in a huge sports family, but I was definitely raised in a family where you did not boo. I guess there are booers and non-booers. And, um, it'll be the hardest thing about, like, being a season ticket crazy person in sports is if I end up with other, sitting with other season ticket holders at games that are booers, I, I ... You know me, I, I, I'm a moral high ground girl. Like, I, I just don't believe in booing. Um, even when the other team takes the field and people are booing, I stand up and try to clap. Like, I, I think it, booing is bad manners. Like, I, I do not believe in booing. I, there's no words that I could tell you right now on this podcast that will convey my disdain for booing.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Can I ask you a question about that?
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
My college roommate Palmer made me rethink my ... 'Cause I also, like, I, I just thought booing was disrespectful and rude in all situations. And Palmer's from Texas, and when I would make a bad pun, he would just look at me and say, "Boo," with this big grin, and I would start laughing. And his way of showing playful disapproval made me think there's a time and a place for booing, but it may not be the, the situation you're thinking about.
- BBBrené Brown
No, I don't, I'm, no, I'm not for Palmer's booing your bad pun. I'd just be like, "I think it's better to just say, 'God, that was, that sucked, Adam.'"
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, but ... And I've been on the receiving end of a couple of them, but they actually were really all good so far.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
But, um ...
- AGAdam Grant
Advance apology-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- AGAdam Grant
... for any bad puns I make.
- BBBrené Brown
No, I, I, I, I'm a punny girl. I like pun. Um, I, I think booing, it, I, I just don't like it. I just, I, it's the, it's, like, the way I was raised, and it's probably the r- the, the disrespectful, irreverent. And then also on, in college in f- like, these are, a lot of the times in college sports, these are kids, like, walking, taking a field. Like, I just don't ... But if someone's hurt, I'm the first to, I'm first to my feet. Um, and I, I'm quiet. Like, if I was coaching a team, I'm like, "Take a knee now, or you'll be pulled from the game. This is part of sportspersonship." Um, so I think I'm just more rule followery, so when I'm watching them, I was like, "I don't like the boos." But when I think about it, I think I have far more empathy for the students than I do for the actual speakers.
- AGAdam Grant
Probably where it should be
- BBBrené Brown
... just to be honest I don't know, I don't know whether it should be or not. I mean, just, I thought every AI-focused commencement address lacked moral
- 18:29 – 21:24
Moral Imagination & Empathy
- BBBrené Brown
imagination and moral clarity, and that's what commencement is about. This is about life. This is not about technological digi- digital transformation readiness. This is about love and kindness and regret and resilience. I, I, I thought AI lacked two things, moral imagination and a finger on the pulse of how kids must be feeling about the world we're handing them right now. I don't think they were booing necessarily AI as much as they were booing the shit show they've been handed. You know?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Their inability to be as prosperous as their grandparents at this point. You know? And so, I don't think a commencement address giver... Let me just put, let me just get away from the negative. And we don't have to edit this part out, 'cause this is me thinking in real time.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. No, I like this.
- BBBrené Brown
I think it, a good talk should, should be selfless and a gift to the people that are spending their time listening to you, not about what you think is important, but about what they think is important and what you could contribute to that.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I agree with that.
- BBBrené Brown
I, I don't know.
- AGAdam Grant
I think-
- BBBrené Brown
I was frustrated
- AGAdam Grant
... I think a talk is... Oh, no. I, I agree. I think a talk is a gift. I think your job as a speaker is to figure out, what do I know that's worthy of sharing with you that will be for your benefit? I, I think, like if you are a technology or business leader who's asked to give a commencement speech to college students, and you're getting asked all the time for advice on, like, how do I think about future-proofing my career, how do I get ready for a world that's in flux, it's easy to imagine, like you think that's the helpful thing to talk about, especially if that's your expertise.
- BBBrené Brown
So what I would say is, what is a thing you get asked about all the time? And then how can you look at that through the lens of moral imagination? Not four ways to write a prompt, which some of these got close to, you know, and they just felt... I don't know. They just felt they missed the mark to me.
- AGAdam Grant
How would, how would you think about giving...
- 21:24 – 26:03
How AI Leaders Should Give Better Speeches
- AGAdam Grant
If, if you're... So okay. You're sitting down with a, a, let's say a tech founder-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... who's building an AI company-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... and they've been asked to give a commencement speech.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
What would you, how would you coach them through the process of using their moral imagination to say something inspiring and useful, but also real to, to the audience? Because, you know, we, we talked two episodes ago about the Stockdale Paradox that you introduced, and the importance of combining gritty facts with gritty faith. And I heard several of these speakers who got booed trying to do that, trying to say, "Look, like we, like the genie's out of the bottle. We don't know what to do about that. But, like [laughs] we have faith that you can still go on to do great things, and we're, we're gonna do our best to share something with you that will help you on that." And [laughs] it did not, did not land for the audiences they were speaking to. But I, I thought that was sort of what the, what was being attempted in some of these cases. And so I don't know if you agree with that or not. So first question is, like what do you think of that? And then secondly, like how would you coach them to, to read the room?
- BBBrené Brown
I think that it's an elevation of... I, I, I would say to the, if, if, if really this was a tech startup CEO who a- was asked to do a, a commencement address, I think I would start with, "Tell me your story, and tell me about the most emotionally difficult parts." And then I would probably use some of those stories to talk about larger lessons in the technology.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
So that abstract of the data and then the you in which it took place, what did you learn about what it means to be human and a leader? You know, it's not ab- And I've seen people do that really, really well.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
I've seen-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I think that's great advice
- BBBrené Brown
... a commencement address. Yeah. So I would say that... But, but, but the other thing is, like this is what I do for a living, 'cause grounded theory research is coming up with, you know, you should be able... It's interesting. Like, this is a, this is kind of a rabbit hole, but I think it's, you'll find it interesting. This is how I would think about it. Um, in grounded theory research, the theories that you, the basic social process theories that you put in the world should not be connected to the kind of industry or area where they were collected. So for example, this really interesting research on how, why people would do not resuscitate orders, why there are a couple of diseases where people who have high potential of death do not have DNRs. And so, like, you've got a, you've got, like, end-of-life chemo dialysis patients for, in this study found, they found that fewer of them than most people that are sick have DNRs. They just don't have them. And then a grounded theory researcher went in for her dissertation and found out it's simultane- it's very difficult to simul- simultaneously engage in very frequent medical procedures that are very painful, and maintain hope, and also plan for death. Does that make sense?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, it does.
- BBBrené Brown
It's like I don't have a D... Yeah, I don't have, I, I don't have a DNR 'cause I'm fighting to live right now.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And I cannot both fight to live and plan for death. Well, one of the most interesting applications of that was how was that theory used to understand what happened at Enron, and how can a company-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... that's actively in trouble be held responsible for planning an ethical death, and do you need things in place to make sure that that happens? And so I think that's about what have I learned specifically about from, from, you know, putting agile processes into my business that I could extrapolate and tell a bunch of 22, 24-year-olds about life. Like, get with a team, define what's done, and be ruthless in your inventory of what you're building, but also ruthless in your kindness and support toward each other.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
That's a commencement at learning.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. Yes, it is. And, you know, when, when you first started, I'm thinking, "Okay, AI is an elephant in this room. How do you not acknowledge it?" But it's so easy to acknowledge it just by saying up front,
- 26:03 – 28:54
What It Means to Be Human in the AI Era
- AGAdam Grant
"You're probably expecting me to give a talk about AI. I want to talk about something more important."
- BBBrené Brown
What it means to be human-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... in a time-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... of, I mean, to, to, to be, you know, electricity, this is what we went through. You know, industrialization, this is what we went through. You're a generation bearing witness.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And here's what we know from history.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And the lessons we know from history are deeply human.
- AGAdam Grant
Let's zoom out.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. And then zoom back in with story. Zoom out with ul- you know, your Five Commandments.
- AGAdam Grant
I think that that's-
- BBBrené Brown
To me-
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, that's... Go ahead, sorry.
- BBBrené Brown
No, just to me, that's... I want moral imagination, and I want really interesting, specific stories to back it up. Make your bed.
- AGAdam Grant
Nailed it. Yeah, I mean, I think almost every g- every great act of communication, whether it's a commencement speech, whether it's a book or an article, whether it's an email, sometimes even, um, has both a zoom out, like let's put this in-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... in big picture context, and a zoom in, let me give you a really specific memorable story, phrase, data point.
- BBBrené Brown
Uh, I mean, 100%. It's interesting because last week I was, like, so slow on my texts with you. I'm sorry about that. I was so in the weeds that I was filming-
- AGAdam Grant
I reject your apology. Texting does not have an expiration date.
- BBBrené Brown
This is why we're friends.
- AGAdam Grant
There is no, there is no expected response window when I text you.
- BBBrené Brown
Really?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, I expect a text back, quickly.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
So I'm glad we're clarifying this-
- AGAdam Grant
Well
- BBBrené Brown
... 'cause I felt like shit because I was so in the weeds filming these curriculum videos for Strong Ground for the Dare to Lead work, and, um, it was interesting 'cause it was the first time, 'cause Strong Ground's the first time I've really written an entire, like, chapter on the importance of communication and mission critical com- m- mission critical communication, but it's exactly what you're saying, whether it's a text or an email. Like, emotional resonance, um, you know, clarity, Chekhov's gun. Don't bring in something that you're not gonna, you know, Chekhov's gun's this really interesting, you know, from the Russian playwright Chekhov, who said, "If you've got a gun in act one, don't describe it in the play or the story unless it's gonna go off at some point, because it's extraneous at that point." Um, and then I'm just always looking for it, you know? Like, there's just r- there's just, people need to be seen and heard, and comms is a great way to do that. Yeah. And emotional resonance, moral imagination, lessons backed by stories, these go back to cave wall, uh, cave, caveman walls.
- 28:54 – 33:16
Should Brené Write a Book on Storytelling?
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, good.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm scared.
- AGAdam Grant
I think, I think we need a Brené Brown book on storytelling. You, you introduced yourself to the world in part as a storytelling researcher. You are a master storyteller. It's all over all the work you do, but you've never, you've never taken it on to give us your view of how to tell a great story. Will you?
- BBBrené Brown
Oh.
- AGAdam Grant
It's an invitation. You can reject it if you want. You can decline it for now.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
It's an open invitation.
- BBBrené Brown
When is, when is the RSVP due?
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] I gotta think about it.
- AGAdam Grant
La- later than your texts are, but I, I think it's-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
It's-
- BBBrené Brown
That was funny
- AGAdam Grant
... it's a topic that everybody-
- BBBrené Brown
But a book sh-
- AGAdam Grant
Like, we, we, we live our lives through stories. We communicate-
- BBBrené Brown
We do
- AGAdam Grant
... who we are through stories, and it's something that you have, you have so much knowledge and so much emotion around. Like, it's kind of amazing that you've never taken it on as a topic in and of itself.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I don't think about it as art and science, really. I just talk about, like I'm a fifth gener- I, uh, I come from a long line of Texas bullshitters, so I just, it, it's like DNA programmed, I think. Um, but I w- I'll think about it 'cause I definitely respect when I see it done well.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I-
- BBBrené Brown
I think more than anything it's what, it's what, um, I- I think what I'm really a big fan of is what Dan Pink would call symphonic thinking. Story, metaphor, analogy
- AGAdam Grant
A book on how to, how to do that better, like, only more important in, in the age of AI.
- BBBrené Brown
I'll think about it. I doubt I'm the right person. There's really good people who study that. I'll look at it. Let me-
- AGAdam Grant
Ah, study-
- BBBrené Brown
Let me-
- AGAdam Grant
As, as you know well, studying something and synthesizing something are two different skills.
- BBBrené Brown
That's true. That's really true.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, Atlas of the Heart.
- 33:16 – 39:45
The Problem With AI-Generated Work & "Work Slop"
- BBBrené Brown
You know, since we're on AI, do you wanna solve a problem for me?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I love solving problems more than almost anything I can think of.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Oh, I love this. I didn't know problem-solving was your love language. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
Of course you did. We chat.
- BBBrené Brown
I did know that. Uh, yeah, in different ways, I think. So, but I really do have a problem. I have a real problem. We received a document. It pissed me off. And it wasn't from either one of us, it was from some- someone else, and I s- I forwarded it to you 'cause I wasn't sure you had received it on separate copy. And I called the document Work Slop, AI Work Slop. I have big emotions about being on the receiving end of Work Slop.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, first of all, I think, I... The, the back and forth we had about that made me think that you... I think you, you said... We, we didn't end up talking about it, but you made a comment that you were trying to be less reactive about this kind of thing.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And I heard that, and I thought, "Well, I don't know that I want you to be less reactive," because your strong reactions are part of what give you insight and passion. And then I was like, "Wait, maybe what you want are the strong reactions, but not the reactivity." And can you separ- Is it possible to separate those two things?
- BBBrené Brown
Ooh. Ooh.
- AGAdam Grant
Like, can you have strong reactions without being reactive? 'Cause I, I think that might be the best-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... of both worlds here.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. So I have a strong reaction. I'm trying to be less reactive.
- AGAdam Grant
Like, yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm trying to-
- AGAdam Grant
And I'm here for the strong reaction. You should, you should hate work slop with every fiber of your being because, like, should we talk about the research that our colleagues at BetterUp did on it?
- BBBrené Brown
Yes, we should.
- AGAdam Grant
Or do you wanna solve the problem first?
- BBBrené Brown
Well, I, what I wanna, what I... Let me go back to the problem, and let me just say one thing I'm looking to do. This is what I'm asking for your help around, and you've already helped me by separating re- strong reactions with big reactivity. I want to have... I'm okay with my strong reaction. I'd like to regulate and be productive in my response. So I'd like to go big reaction, regulation, productive response.
- AGAdam Grant
Love it.
- BBBrené Brown
Does that make sense?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
And let me tell you... Can I, can I, just before we go to the BetterUp research, which I really wanna talk about 'cause I think it's so good on two fronts, actually, one on work- on work slop and the other on their passengers pilot work. The reason why I have such a reaction to work slop is it shifts work to me.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
It puts, it adds to my workload, which is often already at the brink. Now, you have put something in front of me that I have to... First of all, I have to have an emotional reaction. I have to spend cognitive dollars, uh, regulating. And then I have to spend even more cognitive dollars telling you why what you sent me pisses me off in a way that's constructive. That, that's expensive. You just cost me... If I get 100 cognitive dollars a day, you just fricking cost me 40.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
No, I'm not kidding.
- AGAdam Grant
That's a lot. That's a lot. So, okay, so work slop, the AI form anyway, although it could be human-generated too, how are we defining it? We're talking about thoughtless prompting of AI and then basically just sending you, uh, [laughs] like a copy-paste of the output.
- BBBrené Brown
Let me u- let me give the definition. So this is... So Adam and I do, both do work with BetterUp, and this is BetterUp's research that they did in partnership, BetterUp Labs, with the Stanford Social Media Lab. And so their definition, let's use that, 'cause I think it's helpful, is a- so this is AI work slop. Work slop is work that masquerades as good work but lacks the substance to be meaning- to meaningfully advance a given task. It's insidia... Okay, that's the definition. Let me say it again 'cause I think it's important. Work- AI-generated work slop masquerades as good work but lacks the substance to meaning- meaningfully advance a given task. Oh, I think it's really good. Its insidious effect is transferring effort from creator to receiver. I mean, I go dukes up right there.
- AGAdam Grant
Not only am I dumping work on you, but I'm also acting like I did it, which is dishonest.
- 39:45 – 45:07
Why Good AI Writing Can Fool Us
- BBBrené Brown
I think very few people are strong writers. Would you agree or disagree?
- AGAdam Grant
Agree.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. I think w- with the advent of AI, people who struggle with written communication, persuasive written communication, the problem is they're smitten with what's written. That's my new thing.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
They are so smitten, they are so smitten with the idea that they can hand off a work deliverable or anything that's well-written, that they're... Because that's new for them. Like, all of a sudden, this is this beautifully crafted thing that I can turn into someone when for 40 or 50 years I have not been able to make something, you know, basically perfect in terms of editing. So I, I am able to give someone something now that's, that's well-written. And so I think because we are smitten with what's written, we don't think through the fact that good writing does not always equate to meaningfully, meaningfully advancing a task. Does that make sense?
- AGAdam Grant
It does.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. I h- I have to share this with you, 'cause I was so excited when I wrote it. I... Let me tell you what happened. I was listening to it as I was driving between Houston and Austin, 'cause sometimes I listen to articles with an AI-generated voice-
- AGAdam Grant
Really?
- BBBrené Brown
... um, from, from, from magazines. I, so I, I'm a big subscriber. I love The Atlantic, and I was listening to an article, and this is an article written by Eve Fairbanks, and the name of the art- we'll link it in, in the show notes. And the, the, the title of the article is "The Biggest Tell That Something Was Written by AI: Look Closely, and You'll See That Every Part of the Text Is Not Quite Right." And so here's a quote from this, and I want you to track this. It's so... I'm so dying to talk to you about this. She writes, Eve writes, Eve Fairbanks: "The problem is that the efficiency and frictionlessness that make AI appealing to writers are the same qualities that make it feel untrustworthy to readers. And readers are right to not trust it. No matter how much we may tell ourselves that AI is just a tool like spell check, it isn't. When we use AI to flesh out ideas, we lose the most important part of the writing process: thinking." And then she goes on to explain the writing process which you and I know really well, which I can write a page single-spaced in Microsoft Word. And after thinking through it for one or two days, can end up with a sentence. But that discernment process is not about writing quality, it's about idea, the meaningfulness of ideas. Why do I feel so blown away, like I'm having, like I feel like I'm-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... having a transcendent moment?
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] I don't know. I, I mean, I, when, when, when I hear you describe that, I think, yeah, most people look at writing as a tool for communicating. It's more important. It's more importantly a tool for thinking.
- BBBrené Brown
It's a tool for thinking.
- AGAdam Grant
Writing, writing is how you work out your ideas. It's how you identify flaws in your logic and holes in your reasoning. And I think we do our best thinking when we write regularly. And the idea that people would outsource not only their communication, but their actual cognitive effort that helps them crack hard problems, to a machine is terrifying to me.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. Y- do you remember when six-word memoirs were really popular?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Do you remember that meme? That, it was so fun. Mine was, "I write so I know what I think."
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
Does that make sense to you?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, it's like the, the Mary Parker Follett line, "How can I know what I think until I see what I write?"
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God, I love that. I don't think I've ever heard that in my life.
- AGAdam Grant
Is that Mary Parker Follett? I may be misquoting her now. We're gonna have to fact-check that one. Paul?
- BBBrené Brown
We'll fact-check it.
- AGAdam Grant
It's all yours.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, um...
- AGAdam Grant
No, you know what? I think it's, I think it's E.M. Forster. I think E.M. Forster-
- BBBrené Brown
I think it's E.M. Forster
- AGAdam Grant
... said that.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- 45:07 – 50:50
The Hidden Cost of AI Content
- BBBrené Brown
l- listen to this last thing. It's crazy. "Working on AI text as an editor is like trying to operate on a body whose skin, muscle, veins, bones, and organs are all compromised. There's nothing to leave intact, nowhere to begin."
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
Like the whole thing is, the whole thing is shit. But we're smitten-
- AGAdam Grant
So-
- BBBrené Brown
... with the written.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I, I think, I think, I think you're right. I never thought about it that way. So somebody then is sending you something that you're, you're not happy to receive, but they were thrilled by it. And you have a problem-
- BBBrené Brown
No, were they, were they thrilled?
- AGAdam Grant
... with how to confront them. Well, I don't know if they're smitten-
- BBBrené Brown
Were they thrilled?
- AGAdam Grant
Or relieved.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, I think they're smitten by the fact that they, there's something in writing that's, that's been edited and that they can send across.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
I think they're, I, I don't think we can guess what-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... the motivation emotion that they're feeling is. Complacency, you know, thrill, who knows?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, that's right.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And so you have a challenge then with confronting them and giving them feedback.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, 'cause what I wanna say is, "Oh my God, this really strong paragraph followed by four bulleted points, followed by a concise summary, is so well-written, and there's jack shit in here that's useful."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] You should definitely not lead with that.
- BBBrené Brown
Because if you read it, not from how it flows, but from what it says, this is actually a really piss-poor idea.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. So the-
- BBBrené Brown
That, that, that actually you are the person I depend on because you're so good at calling those things out, but you've jumped on to some LLM that has eaten your brain, and you got so smitten with what's, how it's written that you're not practicing discernment about what it says.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes, so they, they were, they were seduced by the form and overlooked the lack of substance in the same way that people are often blown away by a speaker's charisma and then miss out that the content they're delivering is fluff.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes, 100%. I think that's exactly, that's a beautiful analogy.
- AGAdam Grant
It's, it's the same problem-
- BBBrené Brown
But how, but if you-
- AGAdam Grant
It's the writing version of that.
- BBBrené Brown
It is. It is. And, but it hearkens back to something that I really struggled with for 20 years teaching graduate students, which is we used to... Did you ever use Turnitin.com?
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- 50:50 – 1:01:40
How to Give Feedback on AI-Generated Work
- AGAdam Grant
here's, here's a first volley. I wonder if one way to approach this is just to lead... I mean, we, we know from extensive research on feedback that explaining why you're giving the feedback and communicating that you're doing it because you care about the person, you believe in their capability, is important as context. So I wonder if, if you went to the person who sent you the work slop and you said, "Hey, I was really surprised reading this because I didn't see the level of discernment in it that you demonstrate on a daily basis. Can you help me understand why?"
- BBBrené Brown
Where do I say work slop?
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] You don't have to.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
You don't have to label it.
- BBBrené Brown
Well, okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait
- AGAdam Grant
... you're the one who's always reminding me.
- BBBrené Brown
I know. But, but I... Okay. I, I really wanna figure this out because everybody's dealing with this right now that is in organizations.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Is it... Okay, you're the person that sent it to me, let's say, and we're just do role playing right now. I like, I like where you're going. It's probably intuitively where I would go, but here's what I n- I need to say upfront, or somewhere in there I need to say, "Was this generated by AI?"
- AGAdam Grant
That was my next question. I was gonna let them explain it first and see if they offer it.
- BBBrené Brown
Now we're into your question.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes, we are.
- BBBrené Brown
Do you know what I mean? [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. You just went right from your problem to mine. It's... But before we leave yours, I think the key is to-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, we're not leaving mine-
- AGAdam Grant
Right
- BBBrené Brown
... 'cause mine's not solved.
- AGAdam Grant
It's not solved.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
So to-
- BBBrené Brown
I, I really need your help
- AGAdam Grant
... to break down what I'm trying to accomplish, I think the first thing to do is to clearly convey that the work was not up to your standard or their capability level.
- BBBrené Brown
Agreed.
- AGAdam Grant
And then secondly, to give them a chance to walk through the process that they used so you can understand it better. And they might just immediately say, "Yeah, you know what? I, I, I was, I was pressed for time, and I did that, you know, with, with some AI prompts, and, you know, I, I, I didn't review it as carefully as I should've. That's my fault. Here's what I'm gonna do differently next time." Or they might say, "You know, this was a, this was a really hard task for me, and, like, I think I..." They might have some other explanation, right? I, I wanna give them a chance to, [laughs] to explain the thought process behind what they did. Um, you know, I guess, I guess what I'm saying is, like, that strong reaction to me is different if they own up to the fact right away, "You know what? Like, I did this with AI. I was asleep at the wheel," uh, and they take responsibility for that, than if they say, "You know, I actually thought this was really good, and here's why." I'm like, "We need to have a different conversation." [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. This is, this is all... I wonder why I'm so emotionally hooked by this. 'Cause, I mean, everything you're saying is, like, I know to be true. It's what we teach.
- AGAdam Grant
But-
- BBBrené Brown
But I don't know why I'm so reactive to this, 'cause I think it's about shift- the shifting of burden.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I mean-
- BBBrené Brown
You know what? Oh, God, it's worse. It's worse. I think there's some self-righteousness on my part.
- 1:01:40 – 1:10:33
Adam Grant's AI Integrity Dilemma
- AGAdam Grant
Sure.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. That's smart.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. So this, I think this is a good segue to my problem, [laughs] which is maybe in some ways more philosophical in nature. I really struggle with people using AI for anything that's written that's not a brainstorming partner or an editing partner. I, I, I think that anything, any communication that's generated should be human drafted. And otherwise, I think you're taking credit for thoughts and words that you didn't have, and that feels like an integrity violation to me. And so if I have somebody who I'm collaborating with who has, like, who has written something and sentences or paragraphs were generated by AI, I don't feel like I can trust them anymore.
- BBBrené Brown
Wow. I mean, that's a, that's a big rupture.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Like-
- AGAdam Grant
And so I think that's why... You, you referenced that text I sent you. I think that's why I'm so hesitant to judge. First of all, just as a basic statement of intellectual humility, I, I don't think I know, you know, in a lot of cases whether something was partially AI generated or not. I don't have that much faith in my ability to judge. But even if I did, if I were to deem something work slop, I, I'm basically saying, [laughs] like, as a collaborator, you're dead to me, because you violated one of my core principles, which is you don't sign anything you didn't create yourself.
- BBBrené Brown
Let me... I mean, this is such an interesting conversation about why everyone got booed, [laughs] because-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... this is, this is really tough. I mean, this is so, so I have a reaction to not taking extreme ownership of training yourself and getting good at it and applying thinking and discernment. You have a real trust violation and a real integrity violation if anything that someone shares with you has been produced by it, which do- would not bother me at all-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... if it's good, if it's good and it's, you know, becau- So I... Do you think that the, your, your response, your, your reactivity to it, 'cause that feels reactive to me. "I don't trust you, you're dead to me" feels some, [laughs] somewhat reactive on the scale of reactivity.
- AGAdam Grant
It's a carefully reasoned reaction.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Um, that's Adam Grant level reactivity.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm not-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... emotional about it at all. You're just dead to me. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, that, honestly, like, that, that's kinda how it plays out. I'm like, I, I, I don't-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I don't, I, I don't harbor any intense ill will toward you. I'm just like, yeah, this is no longer-
- BBBrené Brown
We're done.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. [laughs] Like, this is, this is not gonna work for me, and it definitely is not gonna work for you if that's how I've evaluated your work.
- BBBrené Brown
So could we go back to the painting done?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And in the, in the top of a collaboration say, "Can you tell me about how you're using AI to support your work? Can you tell me how you're not using AI to support the work?"
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
"Can you tell me about where your lines are, and let me tell you about my lines, and can we come up with a real understanding, agreement, and expectation about what's okay and what's not okay?"
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. Yeah. I think that would be enormously helpful.
- BBBrené Brown
Which could be easier than, "You're dead to me." Yeah.
- 1:10:33 – 1:20:03
Is Letting AI Think for You Dishonest?
- AGAdam Grant
part of this for me too, which is, you know, even if it was accurate, I don't wanna work with people who are content to let AI do their thinking for them, period. Like, that, that just, to me, is a, it's, it's just, it, it just feels dishonest.
- BBBrené Brown
Are you sure you're not a number one on the au- uh, on the Enneagram?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I may be-
- BBBrené Brown
I'm sure you're not, but-
- AGAdam Grant
... multiple numbers, but I sometimes live in your camp.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. You just said, "I don't want to work with someone who lets AI do their thinking-
- AGAdam Grant
For them. And that is a passenger, not a pilot. I hear you on that. I, I guess I think, though, it's also plagiarism. Like, you can't take credit for a some- a, a sentence someone else wrote. You shouldn't take credit for a sentence a machine wrote either.
- BBBrené Brown
I don't know, it just gets, it gets slippery there I think, because, um, you know, basic w- Word document programs will reframe sentences for you. You know, it's like Microsoft Word will suggest a sentence. Grammarly will suggest a sentence.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Where does it end?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I mean, I, I, I don't want the sentences suggested. I want editing, but I want human content generation.
- BBBrené Brown
I know. So your moral dilemma is, "I don't want to work with someone who lets AI do the thinking for them." And my moral dilemma is, "I don't wanna work with someone who uses AI..." I, no, I, we have the same moral dilemma. [gasps]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] It's different kinds of sloppy-
- BBBrené Brown
Ah!
- AGAdam Grant
... uses of AI.
- BBBrené Brown
It's, no, I don't think, I think it's, I think it's... I broke my pen, I was so excited. Um.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I know, it's the same moral dilemma. So let's look at this. Let's just quick. So key findings, this is again from BetterUp Labs in partnership with the Stanford Social Media Lab, um, tracking 10,000 plus workers across 18 industries over a year, um, how people respond to AI splits them into two personas, pilots, high in agency and optimism, use AI deliberately to extend their creativity and judgment, treating every interaction as part of the work itself. Passengers, lower in agency and optimism, more pessimistic and fearful, use AI as a shortcut or avoid it entirely. The gap isn't about technical skill, it's about mindset and relational skills and leadership communication. Here we go to the painting done, right? So key findings, the two personas, pilots score high in agency and optimism, and use AI to extend. Creativity and insight, I'm okay with that. I don't know that you are yet. Passenger score low in both, um, optimism and, and agency more pessimistic. Um, this is where I think ... This is interesting. Mandates help, but communication helps far more. Requiring AI use raises the odds of a pilot mindset sixfold when employees are satisfied with leadership communication that ties AI to purpose and confidence, and that likelihood then ri- rises to 21 times as likely. So that's interesting. What does that mean to you?
- AGAdam Grant
It makes me wanna boo the people who are [laughs] using AI irresponsibly. Uh, I mean, it, it, what it, what it means to me is ... I, I think, I think there's a difference between using AI to extend creativity and insight, which I'm supportive of, and having AI as your co-author and not, and not listing them as your co-author.
- BBBrené Brown
It's not a person, though, Adam. There's no plagiarizing.
- AGAdam Grant
Agreed. Agreed. But it's, uh, it still s- it still seems to me that you're suggesting that you, uh, you created something that you didn't.
- BBBrené Brown
But you did create it, because, because you did create it and, and you did so with discernment and thinking and excellent prompt engineering and checking sources. You did create it. You just created it with a tool. So, like, so at some point, was it Socrates or Aristotle said, "We can't teach people to write because it'll stop them from thinking"? One of them. You know, and so [laughs] it's like-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... it's ... This has been the case for as long as there's been advancement in tool use, right?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, but this is a different kind of tool in that it can ... I mean, the term is generative AI, right? We've never had a tool before that could generate intact paragraphs, cogent sentences, and that, that to me, if you're doing that, like-
- BBBrené Brown
That's true.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. It just ... It's a, it's a different kind of tool, and I think it's, you know, it's a little bit like ... You know what? This actually ... I, I'll give you an analogy, and I'm, I'm making this one up on the spot, so I am, I am prepared to rethink it in, in the middle of even trying to explain it. [laughs] It's that-
- BBBrené Brown
I love it. Lay-
- AGAdam Grant
It's that, it's that-
- BBBrené Brown
Lay it on me
- 1:20:03 – 1:22:18
Brené on Feeling Hollowed Out by AI
- BBBrené Brown
you know, I, I wrote down something that I think, in the last chapter of Strong Ground, I talk about the three, the three physically, spiritually, and emotionally hardest points of my life where I felt so hollowed out that something radical had to change. One was my sobriety 30 years ago. One was having to get off social media for a year. And the other was after 60 to 90 days of hardcore AI use, I had the same feeling that I had before I got sober and when I had to leave. Yeah, really. And it w- and I described it as feeling hollowed out by something I didn't understand. And then I was at the Aspen Ideas Festival a couple years ago, and I did a talk with Kate Crawford, um, an AI scholar, and she explained that artificial intelligence is an e- an extractive industry, an ex- an industry of extraction, that it ta- that the creation of contemporary AI systems depend on exploiting energy and mineral resources from the planet, cheap labor, and data at s- at scale. And she's like, "I understand why you felt hollowed out by it."
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Because that music doesn't fill me up, that poetry doesn't get under my skin.
- AGAdam Grant
Nope.
- BBBrené Brown
You know? And that writing doesn't move me.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And those ideas don't capture my attention. And so I doubt this will be the last AI episode we do, but it's a good start.
- AGAdam Grant
Well said.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. Moral imagination.
- AGAdam Grant
Sign me up for more of that. All right, until next time.
- BBBrené Brown
Sign me up for more. Until next time. [upbeat music] The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brené Brown Education Research Group and Grant Ed Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.
- AGAdam Grant
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Episode duration: 1:22:19
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