The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantAre You a Preacher, Prosecutor, Scientist, or Politician?
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
50 min read · 9,670 words- 0:00 – 2:45
Introduction and Emoting
- BBBrené Brown
I think you're more emotional than you think.
- AGAdam Grant
I think that's probably true. But I'm, I'm so much less emotional than most people that it's easy to stereotype myself as lacking affect.
- BBBrené Brown
I think that little feeling box is busting at the seams.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And I think in just, in no time whatsoever, it's gonna just boof, and then we're gonna have, like, emoting, touchy-feely Adam Grant. I think that's coming.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I'm waiting for the data on that. [laughs] I don't buy it.
- BBBrené Brown
That's okay. You, th- you can wait on the data. I, I see it. My, my emotional me sees emotional you. [upbeat music] [mug clanks] Hi, everybody. I'm Brené Brown.
- AGAdam Grant
And I am still Adam Grant.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] It's good to see you, Adam.
- AGAdam Grant
Same. What are you wearing? That looks like a soccer, football jersey.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm. This is my Liverpool Football Club sweatshirt. Um, rough season, but we won the derby against Everton. This is big news, and so I am celebrating my team because, as we both know, celebrating small successes and wins, this is a big win, though, um, is important, despite the larger context of a tougher season. So-
- AGAdam Grant
Congrats
- BBBrené Brown
... go Reds. Thanks.
- AGAdam Grant
Way, way to end on a high note.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, I'm, I, I love, I love my Liverpool Football Club very, very mu- very, very dearly. Um, okay. I pitched this idea to you for this podcast today because it's one of your frameworks. It's been really meaningful to me, and it's stressing me out.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] That's my goal in life. I-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I wake up in the morning thinking, "How do I stress Brené Brown out today?"
- BBBrené Brown
You're winning.
- AGAdam Grant
I know.
- BBBrené Brown
You're winning.
- AGAdam Grant
I'll create a framework.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, let's go to the framework that's pissing me off. Segue.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, I'm telling you why. I, I, I'm telling you why this is pissing me off. This is a framework that was... When did you, when did you write, when did this come out in Think Again?
- AGAdam Grant
Think Again came out early 2021, so I was, I guess I was writing it in 2019 and '20.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. And this is a framework around modes. Is modes a fair word? Modes that we can enter. Um, specifically Politician Mode, Preacher Mode, Prosecutor Mode, and Scientist Mode. And
- 2:45 – 8:55
Thinking Under Threat
- BBBrené Brown
one of the reasons why it's really frustrating to me right now is, and I wanna know what your reflection is on this, in the world right now, with everything that's going on, I need, my nervous system needs more Scientist Mode in myself and others, and it is waning, dude. It is, Scientist Mode, even my scientist friends are going into politician, preaching, and prosecutor mode. Are you observing this, or is it ju- I mean, I know there's an attack on science, but just in the way that people are presenting arguments and talking about issues, are you seeing this?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I would love to, actually love to see data on this. [laughs] But from my observation, yeah. I think, well, I think it's, you know, it's probably worth just saying, like, preaching, prosecuting, and politicking, they happen a lot under a thread. So if somebody attacks one of my beliefs, and I think I need to now start serving the Kool-Aid that I've been drinking for years-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... that's Preacher Mode. Uh, somebody makes an argument I don't think is persuasive, and I lock into Prosecutor Mode, and I, I try to win the case. And I realize I need people's approval, and I start politicking and lobbying people and, and flattering them and brown-nosing and doing whatever I can to appease my audience. And, and that's, that's Politician Mode. And I think that we live in a world that, that is creating threats that make all of those modes more, more sensible in the moment than they might be if there was less flux or less stress, um, because I mean, the, when the world is changing under your feet, like, it's really helpful to feel like you have some ideals to preach. And when somebody makes an argument that your job isn't gonna exist, like, it gives you a sense of confidence and security to prosecute them. And when you're wondering whether you're gonna have support from a group of people, like, a- appeasing them, appealing to them, um, gives you a sense of belonging. And I think that that is all completely understandable and often the exact opposite [laughs] of what we need to do in a time of stress and turbulence. Tell me, I mean, tell me about your experience of these things 'cause [laughs] it sounds like you're, you're doing them.
- BBBrené Brown
I think AI adoption is a really good example. What I'm seeing when it comes to talking about AI is people go into preacher, the death of humanity, it's over for all of us, um, you know, this is, this is the devil. I see Prosecutor Mode, which is, you know, here's what it's gonna do, here's how it's gonna affect us, um, you're wrong about this, you're right about this. I'm seeing politicking. Well, there could be really good information. What do you think? And we could increase productivity, and it's gonna get, give you more time to... You know, it's like whatever the, the one person will say four different things in four days based on the way the weather's blowing. What I'm starting to learn, if we use AI as an example ofScientist mode is scaring me, and I want, I want you to tell me yes or no if I'm right about this. Scientist mode requires deep time and deep thinking and expansiveness. Like, you ha-
- AGAdam Grant
I think it benefits from all those things.
- BBBrené Brown
You have to-
- AGAdam Grant
I don't know if it always requires it, but yes
- BBBrené Brown
... Okay, okay. Because one of the things that we saw early, and we have the, we do have the data on this, is that people made AI decisions early, organizations did, out of Preacher and Politic mode. They said, "Let's adapt it." You know, they didn't even align it with business strategy. "Let's just get a plan. Get a plan how? What do you want the plan to do? I don't give a shit, just get a plan by Thursday. The board's on my ass." Okay. I don't know why I'm sounding like a '50s guy, a 1950s, like-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... Jersey guy, but there you go. Um, that's, that was my interpretation of what was happening in rooms I was in.
- AGAdam Grant
It's, you're in Mad Men.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm in Mad Men, yeah, yeah. Um, there was no scientific thinking. "Okay, here's the new technology. Here's what it does. Here's what we do. How can we deploy it against this? How do we iterate, test, change, iterate, test, change?"
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, and so what I'm wondering, okay, I'm hearing you rejecting my argument that, not rejecting, but modifying my argument, that it requires expansiveness, ex- that scientific thinking requires expansiveness. Does it require pause?
- AGAdam Grant
I think, I think it depends on the way that you're putting the scientist mindset into action. So-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, tell me more
- AGAdam Grant
... So, you know, I, when I think about it as an alternative to the others, I think about, you know, preaching, I'm just proselytizing my existing views. Prosecuting, I'm gonna attack your views or your proposal. And politicking, [laughs] I don't even have views, right? I'm just trying to figure out what you think and, and, you know, get on board with that. And I think what makes thinking like a scientist powerful is it reminds you that every opinion you hold is just a hypothesis.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm, I love this.
- AGAdam Grant
And, and every decision you make, it's just an experiment. And I think you're, you're spot on that, [laughs] that, that developing informed opinions takes time, right? Like, good thinking is hard and sometimes slow. And you're also right that doing good experiments requires both space and, like, a, a broader view of what you're trying to accomplish and what different options might be, as opposed to saying, "Well, there's one way to go. Let me just implement that." I think the, the reason I'm hesitating a little bit is that there's a version of thinking like a scientist that can be done very quickly. I mean, it's basically what Eric
- 8:55 – 22:48
Testing Your Gut with Small Experiments
- AGAdam Grant
Ries was talking about in Lean Startup, where you create a minimum viable product. It's a, you know, it's kind of a, a rough prototype. And then you put it out quickly, you gather feedback from the market, and you iterate, and I think that, that's a version of scientific thinking too, where you can just say, you know, "Hey, I've got this idea. How would we test it quickly? And then let's see what we learn, and let's adjust." And I wonder if you can get to the same, like, I might be wrong, [laughs] like, I'm not gonna let my ideas become part of my identity, by just doing sort of quick, short testing of ideas, that you want to by saying, "Let's pause. Let's step back. Let's do deep reflection."
- BBBrené Brown
It's, okay, so it's really interesting to me. I love the idea of small experiments. I think about everything in my life that way. Like, just, but I, and I can do it pretty quickly probably. Um, what's the hypothesis? What are the data we need to test if this, does this hold, does this, does this hold water? Is this true? Um, and then if not, what did I learn and how do I just get to the new hypothesis, not the answer? I just go from hypothesis to hypothesis, basically.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes! Ooh. Okay, so-
- BBBrené Brown
So-
- AGAdam Grant
... you mentioned small wins earlier.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] In the context of Liverpool. Sim Sitkin wrote a great paper on what he called a strategy of small losses, which is, like, what's the, what's the tiniest experiment you could run to figure out if your hypothesis is wrong? And then that saves you a ton of time and energy and maybe money too, because you're able to rule it out as opposed to, you know, sort of throwing a lot of good money after bad. And so it sounds like you find yourself doing that on a regular basis.
- BBBrené Brown
I do. I, I, I really, I d- I think, um, I think in terms of hypotheses all the time, and it's probably just 'cause it's maybe my training, but I think also, it's interesting. I, I wanna go down, I wanna see if we can mind meld two things. You and I had an interesting... You and I had, when we started the podcast, you had one idea in your head of how it would run. I had a different idea in my head. And part of, part of our hypotheses, they were different hypotheses about the best and most effective way to do it. Um, and during a call last week, you said to me, "Man, you've really changed your mind." And I said... You said something like, "You changed your mind, you changed back, and now I think you're changing again." And do you remember saying this?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. And it was interesting 'cause I said, "Oh, I was in the bounce." And you, you looked at me like, "What are you talking about?" And it s- it, this has saved my marriage. So the way I test hypotheses is very different than the way my husband Steve tests a hypothesis, and he's, he speaks in this language 'cause he's a pediatrician, and so he's always looking at differential diagnoses and hypotheses and ruling things out and ruling things in, so he kinda thinks like that. Um, when we say, "I think this is a good idea. We, we should, we should ch- we should change neighborhoods," or, "We should put, you know, I like this public school. We should move to this neighborhood," or whatever.The way I test that hypothesis to me is I get immediately on the internet, I find the house we're going to buy, I go to some meetings at the school, and while that's happening, he is in full-fledged panic.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Because he's like, "She's moved." 'Cause I'm emotionally moved into a new house. I'm emotionally moved into a new neighborhood. I'm, I'm, like, I'm calling him from the grocery store like, "Hey, I'm at the new H-E-B in our new neighborhood." He's like, "We have not moved. We have not even tested this. We have not even made a decision." I'm like, "No, this is what testing it looks like for me. I'm in the new H-E-B. I'm at the new grocery store. It's great. They have a tortilleria." You know, like, you know, like... And so what we started saying to each other is, "We're going into the bounce." I n- and, and, and I'm going to-
- AGAdam Grant
The what?
- BBBrené Brown
... test my w- the bounce. We're in a bounce. Like, we're, this is how, this is the hypothesis testing period is called the bounce.
- AGAdam Grant
Why?
- BBBrené Brown
Because I'm bouncing all around.
- AGAdam Grant
Got it.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm saying-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes
- BBBrené Brown
... I'm moving, I'm not moving. We're gonna run the podcast this way. We're not gonna run it this way. I hate this way. I love this way.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I'm in the, I'm in the, c- why are you laughing? 'Cause I do that, right?
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, I'm j- yeah, you do do that. And it's, it, I, I, I didn't fully understand it until you describe it now. [laughs] Because I, I'm used to people, like, I, I know lots of people who are indecisive or wishy-washy.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
But they usually have, [laughs] they have ambivalent opinions and lot of uncertainty, and you bounce from one extreme to the other.
- BBBrené Brown
No, I don't, and I'm not ambivalent or wishy-washy. I am trying on, I'm speaking your language here. I, this is how, hi- hypothesis test. I say, "We're thinking about this move. I am moving in emotionally to this house, in this neighborhood. I'm going to the school meetings. I'm d-" And meanwhile, Steve has a very, he's collecting data. He's like, "How long is the drive? What is the commute? What do we do here? What is the tax system over there?" You know, like, he's doing something else. Then he'll say, I'll say, "I love it. I love the new neighborhood. I think we should go." He's like, "Nope, we're not coming out of the bounce to I, for, until this date." And I'll say, "No, let's go now." And he's like, so he'll come back to me a week later and say, "I'm ready to move." I'm like, "Oh, no, I've already moved back. I, I didn't like it over there at all." So we have different ways of testing-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... our hypotheses.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, I have to fully embed the minimal viable product. I have to do it. I have to, you know. And so one of the things I was noticing in my own private life and work life is when I'm in the bounce, I have to watch becoming a preacher, a politician, or a prosecutor.
- 22:48 – 27:20
The Integrity of Commitment: The Making of This Podcast
- AGAdam Grant
politicking. Polling people and saying, "You know what? I don't know that I'm thinking about this in the right way," or, "I don't know I, that I've considered all the information, and I wanna take that in to pressure test my hypothesis," that is not politicking. That's thinking more like a scientist. But, you know, as, as you read this to me, I'm like, "Okay, so are you asking me to rethink think again? 'Cause it would be ironic if I weren't willing to."
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Am I asking you to rethink think again?
- AGAdam Grant
You did... You actually made me rethink something in it w- [laughs] when we were talking about these ideas, which is I think someti- I... You actually made me rethink two things. Three things. Three things. We could talk about all of them, but the first one is sometimes I'm too harsh on preaching, prosecuting, and politicking, and I forget to acknowledge there's a time and a place for those. Like, preaching is marketing. [laughs] Like, we all need marketers in our lives. Uh, I think, you know, prosecuting is often how we prevent bad ideas from seeing the light of day, and I think politicking is, you know, is sometimes necessary for, for getting a coalition to support something unproven. And I think, you know, you, you said, "Hey, wait a minute. Like, [laughs] let's, let's not just say we should always go into Scientist Mode. Let's make sure that people recognize there is value in having a skill in each of these areas."
- BBBrené Brown
I think that's true.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I lo- I love prosecutors when I'm writing a book. Like, they are my challenge network. They are the people who, who question, you know, arguments that aren't well-supported and push me to make a stronger case. I need that, right? Like, I, I don't think either of us could g- could have given a TED Talk if we didn't learn a little bit from preachers-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- AGAdam Grant
... about how to advance an idea and communicate it and make it worth spreading.And so, yeah, I'm, I'm curious 'cause you're, you're now, [laughs] you approach this conversation from where I normally am, which is, uh, too much pre- preaching, prosecuting, and politicking. How are you thinking about when those are useful modes and when they're not?
- BBBrené Brown
So, from a Dare to Lead kind of vulnerability perspective, I don't think these are useful modes for me when they are armor for me.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh. Oh, say more. Armor against what? Anxiety? Uncertainty?
- BBBrené Brown
Fear, uh, vulnerability, uncertainty, perfectionism, um, not wanting to, wanting to outsource my decisions so I don't have to take accountability or responsibility for them. Um, you know, [laughs] I have this contract with my, um, my stylist who does my hair who, whose basically it says, "I understand that Caitlin will never give me a perm, no matter how much I want one and how much I'm stuck in the '80s. I will never ask for micro bangs, even if things are really hard."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, like, this is the contract I have with her. But one of the things that I find myself doing is I can poll people about what they think I should do or wear to an event, my, my close friends, or how to handle an issue when I know damn well what to do, but I don't wanna take responsibility for it 'cause it's gonna have some consequences that are tough.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And I'd like to outsource the decision-making, and I'd like to spread evenly the consequences of the decision-making over many people. Um, so for me, I can use these, I can use all of these, including Scientist, as armor.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Yeah. And so the distinction then comes down to something very similar to where we landed with shame, which is, [laughs] these, if you're gonna use any of these modes of thinking and communicating, they should be aligned with your values, not just your current emotional state.
- BBBrené Brown
That's it. And I think, again, which seems to be the theme of all of our podcasts, self-awareness is hugely important. What am I doing? What's driving it? And how is it serving or not serving?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- 27:20 – 34:00
Four Thinking Modes: Scientist, Preacher, Prosecutor, Politician
- BBBrené Brown
You know?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Yeah, and you know, it's, it's interesting as, as you talk about armor, I think the... I think that I never realized it until now, but Prosecutor mode is armor for me.
- BBBrené Brown
Really?
- AGAdam Grant
Because it's, it's costly, I, I think it's costly to give up on things that you believe, especially if you've based life choices [laughs] on them.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, I, I'm thinking about Robert Abelson having written that we start to treat our beliefs like possessions over time.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, God, yes. Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, we, we display them on mantels.
- BBBrené Brown
Hoard and, hoard and protect.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you know, I think once you get invested in, in an opinion and turn it into a belief, it becomes a way of life. And so, you know, sometimes I find myself just leaping into Prosecutor mode because it's easier to not have to give up a, a cherished possession. Like, I, I believed for the, for the longest time that, like, hard work was the key to success, and, [laughs] like, I organized my life that way. And when, you know, when people argued that luck and opportunity mattered more than I thought, I was like, "No, no, no. Like, I wanna live in a world in which-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... like, the harder I work, the more luck I have." And I've kinda created that world around me, and I don't realize all the ways I've been lucky. And it took way longer than it should've for me to abandon that belief, because it was so easy to prosecute it and find so many examples in the world and so much evidence. And it's like, okay, just because hard work increases the probability of success doesn't mean that it guarantees success. Why was I not willing to recognize that? Why did I have to prosecute that for so long? Because it had become part of my identity. I think this is the scariest thing we do when we use these mindsets as armor, is we turn our opinions into beliefs, and we turn our beliefs into our identities, and all of a sudden, who I am is what I think, when in fact who I am should be what I value.
- BBBrené Brown
That's hard in this world.
- AGAdam Grant
Increasingly hard.
- BBBrené Brown
Increasingly hard. Um...
- AGAdam Grant
And this i- this is another thing, this is, so this is the second thing that you have changed my mind about. I, I normally leap from, [laughs] like, there, there are three steps in order to, to help people change. Step one is you open them up to a new possibility. Step two is you help them overcome the barriers to realizing that possibility. And then step three is, you, you build a habit around it or a practice around it. And [laughs] one of the things you made me realize, Brené, we haven't talked about this, is I normally just skip right from step one to step three.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Like, we, we do this thing. It's wrong, therefore, we should do the other thing. And you always wanna pause and say, "Why aren't we? What's the barrier? Why is this hard?"
- BBBrené Brown
That's really funny because yesterday on Slack, there was a Slack that said, "We have, we're gonna have a, we, we'd like to introduce a new way of doing something with, um, social approvals or something." And [laughs] I said, "Really appreciate the time and thought put into this. Happy to look at a new process. Can I ask what problem we're trying to solve?"
- AGAdam Grant
That's it.
- BBBrené Brown
And then, you know, our colleague came back-
- AGAdam Grant
Touché
- BBBrené Brown
... with, yeah, with a very clear, like, "Here's what we're trying to do," because I, I promise you that this is built inside of me from reading The Inner Game of Tennis for, for decades, reading it every year for decades, and that whole idea that performance equals potential minus interference, and spending as much time on identifying and getting rid of an interference as building potential has really... I think it's also my love affair with systems theory and not changing the problems we can see, but understanding the mental models, because it's a very different way of saying what you're saying. I, I become a prosecutor especially, and a preacher especially, when you are introducing, not you, but someone is introducing or threatening my mental models.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And my mental models are not what I value, but w- how I make sense of the world and how I make sense of the value that I, that I contribute. And so... And I think you and I ran into this very much when we were, you know, starting to build the podcast, that I had really serious mental models around, "This is the way it needs to look, because this is the way I've always done it," and, and you had a lot of... You must have learned this from me before you used it against me, because [laughs] you were like-
- AGAdam Grant
For us, not against you
- BBBrené Brown
... for us. Oh, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
For us.
- BBBrené Brown
For us. Yes, sir. Yes, yes, Father Grant. Um, uh-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- 34:00 – 41:00
When Opinions Become Beliefs
- BBBrené Brown
equals six, then you have no value for this and that."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
"And then there's gonna be this outbreak of this, you know, like, this disease. This is, I'm getting you from your belief to you're killing all of us in three sentences."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Which is, which is so funny, because I have a, I- I have a more, I have a narrower version of that problem. Like, when, when somebody believes something that I, I have strong condi- conviction is false, I, I think it's my job to rescue them from [laughs] that, that incorrect belief.
- BBBrené Brown
You do. You do think that. You do think of it-
- AGAdam Grant
I do
- BBBrené Brown
... as public service.
- AGAdam Grant
It is public service. I'm like, "If I can just help you see that astrology is bunk and the Earth is not flat, [laughs] y- your life will be so much better. You will be less wrong, and you will..." And what I don't think about is, wow, not only do you have to abandon a belief system that you've invested a lot in, but also, you might lose your entire community who shares those beliefs.
- BBBrené Brown
That's why it's attached to identity, is community.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. And so it, it never occurs to me to say, "Hey, like, come on over here to the round Earthers. There are a lot of interesting people and some new ideas that are gonna help you," or, "Hey, like, I think the purpose of astrology is, for you, part religion and part psychology. Like, you're looking for a, a cosmology, um, a larger order to things, and you're also trying to make sense of all the messiness and complexity of human beings. Guess what? There are great religious communities. Maybe that's not your cup of tea. I also happen to belong [laughs] to a community of really great psychologists, um, who can, you know, teach you a little bit about the frameworks that we use to understand the differences between people, and, like, what, you know, what we respond to when, [laughs] when we experience other people as, you know, aligned or not aligned with us. And there's a, there's a, there's actually a place where you can belong, um, and, you know, and find meaning and connection." I, I never have that conversation with people. I think I should.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I think identity's tied c- directly to belonging and community, and I think, [clears throat] those are the big losses that people are experiencing now over and over and over as more groups turn to ideology and prosecuting and preaching and politicking, and are very fast to cut anyone from those groups that introduces any idea of critical thinking. So people are not just, these are not just modes of being. These are survival and belonging and community and family. Um, this is like, this is like the not invited to the Thanksgiving dinner kind of bullshit right here. And as a Scorpio, I'm so concerned about your disbelief of astrology, because I o-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Don't even get me started
- BBBrené Brown
... I only believe itWhen the news is good for the day. Like, and I... And something's happening where, like, Taurus is moving out of something, so it's supposed to be, like, the end of April 25th is supposed to be the end of hard things or something for Scorpios. So I am for it right now.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, Brené Confirmation Bias Brown.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I see you.
- BBBrené Brown
And-
- AGAdam Grant
I raise you.
- BBBrené Brown
And-
- AGAdam Grant
I, I Shakes- I, in a Shakespearean sense, I, I am hosting you with your own petard.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Well, here's this, in, in a Brené Brown sense, um, which I'm no competition for the Bard, but if the psychologists wanna move more people over from astrology to psychology, you're gonna need better graphics, because-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, for sure
- BBBrené Brown
... the graphics, and yeah, everything's prettier in astrology.
- AGAdam Grant
Better graphics. We also need better language. Like-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... calling people neurotic and disagreeable is-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... not gonna bring them on board.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. And you need to democratize and acc- make more accessible the work, 'cause I think, I don't know, we just, you-
- AGAdam Grant
That's what I do.
- 41:00 – 51:40
The Social Costs of Changing Our Minds
- AGAdam Grant
actually dole out respect-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... when somebody admits they were wrong, right? I m-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, for sure
- AGAdam Grant
... we, we just, we just did an episode where you said, "I was totally wrong about humiliation."
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And I was shocked at first, and then I thought, "Wow, that's a, that's a mark of a real scholar." Like, Brené not only changed her mind, she put it out there and said she got it wrong. But most people lose status for admitting that, or they fear they'll lose status for admitting that, and so they don't. And I wanna know how we can build a world where it's easier for people to say, "You know what? I, I preached this idea last year. You know what? I, I've realized I was missing something important. I prosecuted you, and I have actually become aware that I might not have been correct there." And for people to say, "Wow, you've evolved. Thank you," as opposed to, "You are inconsistent. You're a hypocrite. I no longer respect you."
- BBBrené Brown
So treat beliefs as what? We treat beliefs as potential hypotheses?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, hunches.
- BBBrené Brown
This is how I got clear on God. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Did not expect you to go there.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] No. This is a, I, I, I, I think I just was raised-
- AGAdam Grant
That's a big hunch
- BBBrené Brown
... no, I was-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... I was raised with the belief that all this is true. Like, I was, 'cause you're raised in the church, Catholic church, this is all true. And then when I got into my 20s, I decided I, I'm not gonna completely prosecute the idea, nor am I gonna believe it fully. I'm just gonna treat it as a, uh, as a hunch, and, and, and spend a couple of decades testing it. Turns out for me-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... it's true. Yeah. But, but I did challenge it from every corner, for me, and as a personal thing. But, um, it rattled my faith in church and doubled down my faith in God. So that was an interesting experiment, which-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... um, yeah. So I think the application... is really broad. And I will say, I have to give you kudos. You're a rethinker. You, you really, you really walk your talk. Um, it's been wild to watch you change your mind, um, to rethink things, and I respect it. I, I-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Thank you
- BBBrené Brown
... I do. I just respect it. I think if we do all, everyone gives lip service to always being curious and, you know, curiosity and learning, curiosity and learning. And if you're really committed to that, you have to be equally committed to rethinking and realizing your-
- AGAdam Grant
Agreed
- BBBrené Brown
... hypothesis was wrong. You know, if you're allowing for new data.
- AGAdam Grant
That's, I mean, [laughs] some people call it changing your mind. I think of it as growing. But I, I also think, you know, just because I am willing and able to think again doesn't mean I always do it at the right time or in the right direction. And one of the things I've m- I've noticed over the last few years, and I've gotten some really good feedback about this, is, uh, I, sometimes my, my standard of proof is too high. So somebody brings me, you know, a suggestion or an idea or a concern, I'm like, "Show me the, the airtight evidence or the bulletproof-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... logic."
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
"And if not, I'm good where I am. Like, you, you've not, you've not met my, my level of-"
- BBBrené Brown
Your threshold.
- 51:40 – 59:40
A Missing Mental Model: Teacher
- BBBrené Brown
right now took a few minutes to think about, "Here are four ways of being. What's happening for me when I slip into these? And where are they s- when and where are they strengths? And when or where are they, like, kinda the worst of me 'cause I'm in fear?" Um, I think it's, it's a really interesting exercise. Um, I also think the styles are contagious, and I think it's why when someone starts politicking in a team meeting, you can see other people come out of the m- a more productive mode and start doing the same thing.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, they're very c- uh, 'cause armor is, can be contagious. Um, perfectionism, different ways that we protect ourselves. I do want to-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh
- BBBrené Brown
... we're at time.
- AGAdam Grant
S- s-
- BBBrené Brown
But I-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh
- BBBrené Brown
... oh, go, go, go, go.
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- BBBrené Brown
Please.
- AGAdam Grant
No, no, I j- I, just a really specific example of that that I see all the time. Somebody checks in with you before a meeting or after a meeting, and all of a sudden you realize, "Well, I have to have the pre-meeting and post-meeting to have influence." And then what gets said in the meeting becomes meaningless, because everybody's politicking by having the conversations behind closed doors and trying to lobby for what's gonna serve them.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, for sure. And that, the contagion, it becomes systemic. It's just like, "Oh, this is how we do business," and that shit is, will eat you alive. Um, you gave a great example on the last podcast of what show to see what, um, uh-
- AGAdam Grant
Pluribus?
- BBBrené Brown
Pluribus to see kind of communi-
- AGAdam Grant
To see invisible armies, uh-
- BBBrené Brown
Like joint communication
- AGAdam Grant
... stuck in the worst version of, yeah, of the worst version of group think and group talk that I can imagine.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm gonna share a TV show where I literally re-watched one... I, I, I've binged, I've binged all three seasons. It's one of the smartest shows I've ever seen. I love it. Um, The Diplomat.
- AGAdam Grant
Haven't seen it.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God, on Netflix. Uh, with Keri Russell. It's so, it's so, Allison Janney's in it now. It's just, the cliffhanger from season one to two, I was like, "Wow, someone can write a cliffhanger." The se- cliffhanger between season two and three, I was like, "This is the best, this may be the best cliffhanger I've seen in TV history."
- AGAdam Grant
Whoa.
- BBBrené Brown
And then, yeah, I mean, it was just-
- AGAdam Grant
Strong claim
- BBBrené Brown
... yeah, no, it is, it is a big claim. Um, I had goosebumps. I re-watched it 20 times, just the ending, 'cause it was so incredible. But I w- re-watched episode four in this last season with your model in front of me, and it's such an interesting, it's so interesting to watch. We have some of The West Wing writers on it. Um, and so it's just smart. It's fast. It's dialogue-heavy. It's, it's intricate. It's just, but I really watched that show thinking, "Oh my God, they're politicking. That, they're just pol- oh, God, this guy's such a preacher. He's in such Preacher Mode right now." Um, but I used it because you can watch them picking these modes up and putting them on, and then peeling them off and putting the next one on. It-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... it's a, it, it, you should clip it when you tea- I, I'm gonna teach this. I'm gonna actually teach it in an MBA class. I wanna teach your Think Again piece, and I'm gonna use clips from that show to teach it.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow, okay, I'm moving it up in my queue. I have to finish Daredevil: Born Again and Fringe, and then Diplomat will be next.
- BBBrené Brown
I haven't even heard of the other two shows. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
You, you don't, you don't watch Marvel or DC, do you?
Episode duration: 57:01
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