The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantMission vs. Ego: The Dangers of Narcissistic Leadership | The Curiosity Shop
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 11,147 words- 0:00 – 1:25
Intro
- BBBrené Brown
Support for this show comes from Canva. What's your next big thing? Whatever it is, you can design it with Canva. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, from logos all the way to websites, whatever your idea is, you can make it a thing in Canva. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing. Learn more at canva.com.
- AGAdam Grant
Support for this show comes from SAS. It's time to have an honest talk about AI. Not about whether it will replace us, but about how it's becoming easier and easier to outsource our thinking to systems that people just won't understand. Thankfully, SAS has been in data and AI for 50 years, and they believe in a pretty simple idea: AI should be explainable, well-governed, and worthy of trust. Visit sas.com to see how AI should be built for high-stakes decisions, where the cost of getting it wrong is real and human accountability isn't optional. Learn more at sas.com. That's S-A-S.com.
- BBBrené Brown
Support for the show comes from Hostinger. The landscape for entrepreneurs everywhere is changing. AI has altered the barrier to entry, making it possible to build something from the ground up starting in just a few minutes rather than a few weeks.
- AGAdam Grant
Go to hostinger.com/cshop, that's the letter C and then shop, to bring your idea online for under $3 a month. Plus, get an extra 20% off with promo code CSHOP. That's less than the price of a cup of coffee per month. That's hostinger.com/cshop. Promo code CSHOP for an extra 20% off.
- 1:25 – 2:50
Live at SXSW: Launching The Curiosity Shop (and why this isn’t a “talk”)
- BBBrené Brown
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Curiosity Shop. This episode was filmed live in Austin, Texas at South by Southwest on March 15th. Let's jump in. [upbeat music] [bell dings] [audience cheering] Hey. I already broke it, y'all.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Wait. Seriously, wait. I don't know. What, can y'all hear me okay?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
How's it going?
- AGAdam Grant
Good. [cheering]
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, y'all wanna hear something fun?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
This is not really a talk.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] See, you all are gonna be really disappointed.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. [laughs] This isn't really a talk. We're actually officially announcing a new podcast right now.
- AGAdam Grant
[cheering]
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
I can't believe we're doing a podcast together.
- BBBrené Brown
I know. It's cra- [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
#same.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, I'm excited.
- AGAdam Grant
The excitement is mutual. But I feel like it's a little unfair, 'cause we're, we're on your home court here in Texas. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Let's go. Where are my Longhorns?
- AGAdam Grant
Whoo.
- BBBrené Brown
Let's go.
- AGAdam Grant
Not to get competitive.
- BBBrené Brown
No, just to win.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- 2:50 – 4:21
Why we’re drawn to narcissistic leaders in uncertain times
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, we have an interesting conversation for you today. We're gonna talk about why we are so vulnerable to narcissistic leaders.
- AGAdam Grant
Whoo. Wait, we? We? I, I don't follow narcissists. Do you?
- BBBrené Brown
Um, no, but I think the collective we. Like, I think people in general can... We can be somewhat vulnerable to it, because it... When we're scared and uncertain, the traits that ladder up to that kind of, that type of leadership can at first blush seem comforting before they turn into catastrophic. But they can seem, I think at, at first blush. So you wrote an op-ed. Tell, t- tell us about your op-ed. I thought it was really interesting.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, well, thank you. I, [laughs] um, I have to, I have to think through whether I agree with everything I wrote in or not. But the, the place I started was, I was thinking about Greek mythology, and we all know the myth of Narcissus, who falls in love with his own image, and then he withers away. And I was just struck by the fact that that was what happened in Ancient Greece, but in modern America, he ends up and h- he sort of lands in the corner office and maybe occasionally even in the Oval Office. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Every now and then.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] And there's something wrong with that picture, and I wanted to try to understand it, and you have been studying this your whole career.
- 4:21 – 6:47
Defining narcissistic leadership (without clinical diagnosing)
- BBBrené Brown
Well, I haven't... Well, one thing I wanna say, a- and this is really important for folks watching or listening and for those of you in the room, I'm a social worker, and this is where it gets really important to say this out loud. I'm a social worker. Adam's a psychologist. We are not talking about diagnostic, diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder. We're talking about patterns that we've observed in leadership that share some things in common that very much align with some of the traits that we can see in narcissism. So I wanna be really careful about that, because we're not talking a... We're not, neither one of us are clinicians, so we're not talking about the clinical disorder. We're talking about a pattern of leadership. When we started throwing around the word, "Oh, she's such a narcissist, he's a narcissist," every podcast was, you know, "Were you raised by, you know, a narcissist?" And it made me, it made me nuts, because when I looked at it through the lens of vulnerability and what I study, what I saw, or what I still see, is those traits are, are what I would say are the shame-based fear of being ordinary.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
So the... Oh, the say it again. I like that. Um, so-
- AGAdam Grant
So someone's taking my job here.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Thank you for that.
- BBBrené Brown
You can come with me everywhere we go.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, Brené, can you say that again?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
That was a really insightful observation. I wanna hear it twice so it lands.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] We're taking you everywhere we go out there. Um, through a vulnerability lens, I think narcissism is the shame-based fear of being ordinary. And what's interesting and scary about that that I wanna get into with you is-And actually psychoanalytic clinical work there's a thing called, when they ta- when they write and people theorize around narcissism, the terror of ordinariness. A sheer terror of being ordinary. How does that fit ... Just to, for those of you who don't know our work well, we spend 90% of our time in organizations working with C-suites and senior leaders, so we see a lot of firsthand kinda leadership traits. So how does that fear of being ordinary fit for what you see?
- AGAdam Grant
Well, first of all, Brené, everyone knows your work well, so-
- BBBrené Brown
Well, that's not true.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- 6:47 – 9:13
Fragile superiority: the ‘appearing ordinary’ threat and bullying research
- AGAdam Grant
No, no explainer needed. But [laughs] to, to, to weigh in on your question, I think, you know, when you were, when you're talking about the shame-based fear of being ordinary, I, I would say also of appearing ordinary because it's, it's image, not just ego. And-
- BBBrené Brown
Wait, wait, wait. It's not just the fear of being ordinary, it's the fear of appearing ordinary because it's not just ego, which is the fear of being ordinary, it's image.
- AGAdam Grant
I don't want other people to think that I'm not special.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Yeah, that's huge.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, I'm gonna miss their validation then-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... and I'm gonna miss out on the sense of superiority that I want that I seek through claiming power and seizing status. So when you describe that, I start thinking about, uh, a whole body of research in psychology on narcissism as part of the heart of bullying. Um, and I, I think everybody... How many people were bullied in the audience growing up?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, no one cheers for that, by the way. [laughs] like-
- BBBrené Brown
No.
- AGAdam Grant
You ask other questions, people are like, "Whoa! Yeah, me."
- BBBrené Brown
No people.
- AGAdam Grant
How many people are bullied? It gets really quiet. "Eh, I guess I was." I was, and I remember my mom saying, you know, "They, they just feel bad about themselves, and they're trying to feel better about themselves by putting you down." And I, I got to college, I started studying psychology, I, I dove into some of the research on that, and I'm sorry, Mom, but you were wrong.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
It turns out that narcissists do not suffer from low self-esteem. They suffer, they suffer from high but unstable self-esteem. They have an inflated view of how great they are, but it's fragile. It's like a balloon that could puncture at any slight. And I think that, that seems really, that, that seems so complementary to the shame-based fear of being ordinary is, like I, I have this, this desire to see myself as, as great, and important, and unique, but maybe I know deep down that I'm not, and I'm extra sensitive to any signal that calls into question that fragile view of myself. Discuss, please.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I'm, I'm taken aback because [laughs] I don't know what mental picture you have in your head. Um, I have several political pictures in my head.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, I have a full-on frickin' Mount Rushmore of-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- 9:13 – 12:30
Organizational damage: trust erosion, accountability breakdown, and cutthroat cultures
- BBBrené Brown
... narcissistic leadership in my head. Um, one thing I would say is I, I, I wrote this note, um, in preparing for today. While clinicians might ask, "Does this meet the criteria for a pers- a narcissistic personality disorder?" I think you and I, check this out, yes or no, you and I are saying, "Does this pattern of leadership reliably cor- corrode trust, accountability, and shared reality inside of a system?" Like, that's what we're looking for in the leadership world, right? Don't get that.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I'm leaning over. I got Spanx on. Come on, folks.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Come on, people. Rearrange. Um, so here are the things I was think- I want to ask you about. So when I think about the leaders that I've worked with or the leadership I've seen, when I think about this kind of narcissistic trait, the first thing I think about is structural impact, trust erosion, the things, the kind of the structures that we can depend on are broken down, even purposefully. Um, and then the... there's really weird incentives, like the incentives change from goodness to, like, egomaniacal incentives. What i- what do you see? Like, what does the research say? Or what do, what do you see when you write about it?
- AGAdam Grant
I think that, that aligns pretty well with the, the evidence I've read. So narcissistic leadership seems to have, seems to have three predictable consequences. One is that leaders put their ego above the mission, and that means people redirect their effort away from, "How do I contribute productively and effectively?" and toward, "What is gonna please the boss?" And see, so you see a lot of, um, of a lot of brown-nosing, a lot of kissing up. Um, also a lot of, um, of backstabbing of people who might threaten my standing with the boss, and I think that goes to the second pattern, which is, um, narcissists encourage cutthroat cultures. O'Reilly and, and Chatman, among others, have studied this, and what they, they show is basically that narcissists wanna do whatever they can to feel special, and that includes cutting corners, and they, they end up normalizing that behavior at lower levels of the organization. And then the third piece is, um, they end up really undermining collaboration and cooperation, and I think that's the trust piece you were talking about.
- BBBrené Brown
For sure.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, and it's... You know, i- it's not to say that there aren't times when narcissists succeed, but I think that they often succeed in spite of their self-love, um, and egos, not because of it.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, 'cause when I think the sh- about the shame-based fear, how many of us are good in shame? Like, zero. Like, you know, like, I'm thinking about Hartline, Linda Hartline's research on, and the Stone Center at Wellesley did this incredible research on shame, and that how we defend against it, we move toward by people pleasing-We move against by using shame and violence to combat shame. Like, we, we don't make good choices when we're in shame, you know? And so that's, that comes to this relational patterns.
- 12:30 – 18:07
Can shame ever ‘work’? Evolution, culture, and the limits of shame as control
- AGAdam Grant
Can I ask you a question about that?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I've always wondered. Um, there's a, there's a paper that Rick Bagozzi published a l- a while back looking at cross-cultural differences in reaction to shame, and the finding that always stuck out at me was that in the Philippines, salespeople performed better after they felt shame. And he was suggesting that I- if I remember correctly, in a collectivistic culture, that people were, were able to harness shame, um, to repair as opposed to fight or flight. And that never sat right with me, and I, I wondered if you could explain it or help me make sense of it. Like, can we, can we ever derive benefits from shame?
- BBBrené Brown
So from an evolutionary biological perspective, um, shame worked when you were a danger to a collective society. When you kept making a mistake that put us in danger, we would just shun or shame you until basically you died because you depended on the community to live, right? Today, it's just too far blunt of an instrument to work because shame is the threat or belief that we're unlovable and unworthy of connection with other people, unworthy of belonging, and it moves us into some very... How many of you, let me just see, like, a show of hands, how many of you are parents? How many of you had some of your worst parenting moments when you were in your own shame and you just responded, you acted out? You know, it's like we're not good from that place 'cause one thing is we're not ... when, when shame happens, it's such a primitive emotion that it hijacks the limbic system, and it's not like we're in the prefrontal cortex where we can think through, rationalize, and regulate. We are in fight, flight, and parasympathetically freeze. So the cross-culture studies on shame are so important, I don't envy any researcher taking that on, for an very interesting reason. English is the only language that we know of in the world where there's a singular word for shame.
- AGAdam Grant
Really?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, because if you go into French-
- AGAdam Grant
Huh
- BBBrené Brown
... or you go into Spa- you go into any other language, there are multiple words that are very nuanced, and I'll, I'll tell you why. We were-- How many of you are Spanish-speaking in here or speak Spanish? So we, when we were translating the curriculum, it took two years because it was an ongo- we had, we had native Spanish speakers from four different countries working on the translation, and they could not agree. First they said-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
They, they couldn't agree. They were like, "No, no, no"
- AGAdam Grant
What is shame in español?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, no. They're like, they're like, "It's pecado. It's the word for sin." They're like, "No, no, no. It's..." But it ended up being vergüenza, which we use for embarrassment because the context is different. So, like, if I fall over and I'm, "Oh, tengo vergüenza," like, I'm, I'm, I'm embarrassed. But if I walk down the stairs and my mom or grandmother look at me and go, "No tiene vergüenza" 'cause I have on a short skirt, that goes right into the shame category, right? And so-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... I think cross-cultural studies of shame are difficult because l- the language is very hard.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, light bulb moment.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, great.
- AGAdam Grant
So I just, a- as you were describing the evolutionary perspective, I just realized what never, what never landed for me before in that study, which is, if I remember correctly, they were studying anticipated shame, and that was where they found a function, that worrying that you were gonna be unlikable or unlovable with your colleagues was enough to prevent you from making a big mistake, and I, I-
- BBBrené Brown
That's different
- AGAdam Grant
... consider that being more adaptive, right?
- BBBrené Brown
That's d- well, that's different, but anybody raised in a faith community that used that to keep people in line would tell you that that does not work so well. That ends up with a lot of, like-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... God scars or whatever kind of scars you... I mean, like, that is, shame is a form of social control. I don't think anyone argues about its short-term efficacy-
- AGAdam Grant
Yep
- BBBrené Brown
... in a sales call room-
- AGAdam Grant
Yep
- BBBrené Brown
... which is the, the research here. I'm familiar-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... with the research. The long-term result of that is a very different story.
- AGAdam Grant
So it's like fear in that way.
- BBBrené Brown
It's like fear in that way. You can shame me into following cultural or community norms, but the impact of that is lifelong. [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from Canva. An idea is just an idea, but actually transforming that idea into a thing, that's where the real work lives. It can be a journey full of pitfalls and banging your head against the wall, or it could be a lot easier than that with Canva. Canva is packed with templates and design tools to turn your idea into something real. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, logos, and websites, whatever your idea is, you can make it a thing in Canva. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing. Learn more at canva.com.
- 18:07 – 21:27
A detour on emotions: action drivers vs learning signals (regret as a teacher)
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... this is the Curiosity Shop, so I'm allowed to explore-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... any curiosity I have, right?
- BBBrené Brown
Any. Go.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so I, I read, I read this paper years ago that argued that we think about emotions wrong-And it's exactly on this point. Um, I think most of us assume that emotions are supposed to drive behavior, right? So I feel guilt, I repair. I feel gratitude, I show appreciation. Um, the argument was that most emotions don't actually exist to drive action. They exist so that we can learn the consequences of our action, and then anticipate what we need to do differently next time. And I think this, this was especially for negative emotions. So the thought was, like regret isn't supposed to change your behavior today. It's supposed to teach you about the systematic m-mistake you're making in your decisions so you're gonna learn to avoid that the next five times you're in a similar situation. And it really shifted my thinking a little bit and led me to wonder if most of the way that we deal with emotion in terms of processing what does this mean for what I do today is actually shortsighted. And if we should be asking more of, okay, like emotions are teachable moments. Like is, you know, is regret a master class in making better decisions? Is guilt a whole tutorial in learning how to right wrongs or avoid committing them in the first place? Um, is embarrassment, um, a cue that I need to be a little bit more attuned to how other people perceive me? And I, I'd just be so curious to hear your take on like are emotions anticipatory tools as opposed to immediate action causes. And I know you're gonna say they're both.
- BBBrené Brown
They're both.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Damn it.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think that, you know, it's ... I think it was in Atlas of the Heart, Dan Pink and I align on regret-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... as a very useful emotion. I think regret is, you know, I always think about, what was the movie with Jennifer Aniston, um, and Jason Sudeikis? We're The Millers.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, and, and the daughter brings home this guy, and he's got a tattoo, and it says, "No regrets," and it's misspelled.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, and Jason Sudeikis is like, "No regrets?" And he's like, "No, sir."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And he's like, "Not one?" He goes, "No, sir."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And, and Jason Sudeikis just goes, "Not even a single letter?" [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And so I don't ... Like I, I always write that I think regret is a tough but fair teacher.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
So I do think in some ways it's retrospective about ... I mean, I think regret's a function of empathy. For me a l- often it's like, wow. I'm going to another quote. I think it was George Saunders that gave the commencement address that, that said the things he regretted most in his life were fail-
- AGAdam Grant
Kindness
- BBBrené Brown
... failures of kindness. You know, and so I think re- y- I think they can be retrospective. I ca- I think they can be predictive in a way. Like, um, you know, like I always tell you, like I have a Spidey sense it's probably ... A psychology person would probably say strong pattern recognition intuition.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
But I, but I think they can be reflective, predictive, and just also in the moment.
- 21:27 – 24:17
Credit hogging and blame dumping: how narcissism shows up in teams (NBA evidence)
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. What about this? This is like r- how, how narcissism or traits of that can affect relationships. I was very freaked out when I read this in the research. Taking undue credit is related to narcissistic leadership patterns. Y- do you think that's true?
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so when I was studying givers and takers, I was like confronted with the question of like okay, we all would prefer to be surrounded by generous than selfish people. But like there must be some value of, like of the selfish people, otherwise they wouldn't exist. And so I started combing through the research to try to figure out, okay, like what do, what do givers take and what do takers give? And the only thing that I could find out of that was givers really love to give credit and take responsibility, and takers are really good at taking credit, but they also give something, blame.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
The takers, the givers.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, no, I mean, I, I, I think that y- a huge part of narcissism is, is credit hogging. Um, or it's a, it's a major consequence of narcissism anyway, because it's har- it's part of how you show that you're not ordinary. Um, I, I, I think the NBA data on this are, are, are so striking. There's a, a study where Emily Grijalva and colleagues, uh, they actually code NBA basketball players' tweets on a narcissism scale. So and I, I realize this may be a world in which the base rate of narcissism is somewhat higher than the average in the popul- population at large. Uh, but you can still see variations, right? There are some players who tweet and, and say things like, "You know, tough game yesterday, I really let the team down." And others who, this was an actual quote, um, who post a shirtless photo of themselves that says under with, uh, uh, under it with a caption, "When I look at myself in the mirror, all I see staring back is greatness."
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Me too.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
So I mean, there's the credit taking, right? The question is what does that mean for the team? Well, the higher the average narcissism level on your team, the more stagnant your team's performance is over the course of the season. Because narcissists are hogging the ball, they're hogging the glory, they're taking the credit. They undermine collaboration, as we were talking about earlier. And that is especially true if the point guard is a narcissist. Having a self-centered person move the ball up the court and control the offense is deadly to a team's ability to become more than the sum of their parts. And I think the, the credit-taking dynamic is probably part of that.
- BBBrené Brown
Damn.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I know how I'm gonna be thinking about the Final Four, okay.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
All right.
- 24:17 – 32:08
What to do when you can’t walk away: practical survival tactics and plan B
- AGAdam Grant
Wait, no, no. Hold, Brené, I have a question for you on this. So have you ... I mean, it's really easy to like, to see these patterns from a distance.It's hard to deal with these patterns when you confront them on a daily basis. You spend a lot of time coming in, into organizations and trying to cure them of these sorts of-
- BBBrené Brown
I don't know about cure them, but yes
- AGAdam Grant
... trying to heal them, trying to improve the way that they work together and maybe, maybe, um, I, I don't wanna say squash egos, but maybe lower the ego or quiet the ego a little bit of, of leaders. How do you think about dealing with a narcissist when you, when you see these tendencies?
- BBBrené Brown
You know, I, I, y- I'm hesitant to say the truth. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Always a good place to start.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. Like, um-
- AGAdam Grant
What, what I'm about to say is not gonna be 100% candid, but bear with me.
- BBBrené Brown
No, I'm gonna s- uh, no, yeah, no. What I'm gonna say is when I say that, I'm gonna say, "I'm gonna say 100% the truth and it could get me in a shit ton of trouble," is that's usually what I mean. Um, yeah, I like the let's go person. Um, you know, when we go in and do Dare to Lead work, we say yes to those kind of embedded interventions where I'm in there doing work with leaders about 30% of the time. The others are 70% are no. And the first thing I... And, and we go through very rigorous assessments where I interview people in the C-suite, I interview senior leaders, and the th- and I, and I interview people with the least power and proximity to power. And so the thing that I'm looking for, for... And it's probably a little bit of, like, creaming the crop for the intervention, or it is definitely creaming the crop for the intervention, let me just be straight.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
That I am looking for, in the C-suite specifically, leaders who want to win more than they want to be right. So if I'm working with a CEO or senior leaders who care more about winning and doing what's right for the organization than they do protecting a self-image-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... then I'm all in. And in fact, I just did a interview with the Wall Street Journal when I was with Kate Johnson at Lumen, and w- we've been together, working together for maybe three years. And the Wall Street Journal guy said, "To what do you attribute some of this transformative success?" And I just looked at Kate and said, "She wanted to win more than she wanted to be right."
- AGAdam Grant
Hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
And you know, and he said, "What does that look like?" And I said, "Showing up at everything we did, leading the way, modeling vulnerability, modeling empathy, modeling rethinking, modeling learning and unlearning when it was super uncomfortable, when she knew it could come up on an investor call."
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
Like, like really just saying, "I care more about getting it right than I do about being right."
- AGAdam Grant
And that, that... I can't think of a better way to demonstrate mission over ego than that.
- BBBrené Brown
The mission over ego thing is so interesting. It takes me immediately to an experience I had at... Have you ever done work with St. Jude's?
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- BBBrené Brown
About 10 years ago, I went to go do work with St. Jude's, and I was gonna meet with the leaders, and they said, "Do you wanna get here an hour early to get a tour of the hospital?" And I said, "Oh, I'd love it." And so I got there, and I got on the elevator to go to the second floor where, where I was meeting the docent who was gonna give me the interview, and when I stepped on the elevator, the only other person on the elevator was a woman in her kinda mid-60s, and she was pushing a cart of desserts. And I said, and I said, you know, "Hi, how are you doing?" She goes, "Good." And I said, "What do you do at St. Jude's?" And she said, "I cure cancer." And I said, "Uh, I'm sorry?" And she said, "I cure cancer. Families, patients, physicians, nurses, staff don't eat, we can't cure cancer."
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. She said, "I cure cancer." I got up to the... And I was like, "Hell yeah, you do." I was like, "Right, that makes sense." I get up to the second floor, and I meet the docent, and we're just starting to walk on the tour, and I said, "How long have you been volunteering for St. Jude's?" And she said, "God, I think I've been curing cancer for about 18 months." And it made me realize that that is a culture where the oncologists are not taking credit for curing cancer, that everyone is taking credit and everyone a, is sharing credit.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
And that takes a very special kind of deep humility and curiosity-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... in leadership-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... that I would say is the opposite of narcissistic leader trends.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. So when you confront the opposite-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- 32:08 – 34:54
Adam’s personal story: confronting a narcissistic boss and the cost of speaking up
- AGAdam Grant
You know, I, I had a narcissistic boss early in my career actually. Um, and to your earlier point, uh, not diagnosed with a personality disorder, just showing normal narcissism signs, um, which, you know, involve like sort of airing your grievances like every day is Festivus, if we have any Seinfeld fans in the room.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, showing lots of entitlement, uh, believing that you deserve special treatment, um, lacking empathy for other people, and not ever owning the consequences of your decisions. Um, I had a boss like that, and a bunch of my colleagues were being mistreated, and I, I basically spent a whole summer afraid to speak up. And finally I just... I couldn't, I couldn't take being a, such a coward anymore. And I walked into her office and I said, "I think this is, you know, this is really unfortunate the way that people are being forced to work overtime without pay, the way that their, uh, you know, their concerns are not being heard, and I'm really worried that we're gonna lose them, and we can't afford to. Uh, they're, they're really valuable." And I, uh, I got dragged by my ear down the hall into the, the women's restroom, which is the only room on our floor with no windows. And she said to me, "If you ever speak up out of turn again, you'll be fired along with your coworkers." And that was why I became an organizational psychologist.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I did not know that.
- AGAdam Grant
I was like, I, I do not ever want another person to have power over me again. Uh, academic tenure sounds really safe right now. But one of the, one of the things I had to do then was I had to keep working with her. Now, I will tell you, the single most helpful thing that I did was having conversations with her that were not about work, where-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, I can see that
- AGAdam Grant
... she, she was not interested-- like where she didn't have to prove that she was special and extraordinary. And I found out that she loved Survivor, and I was watching Survivor. And within a few weeks I was on her good side again just from talking about a TV show that was a common interest. And that, I think that got me through it. And I, I wrote down a- after I finished that job, I will never, ever work in a situation again where someone who believes that-- where somebody who, who puts herself above the organization, a- and above the team has the power to ruin my day. Never again.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. [clapping] [cheering]
- AGAdam Grant
So yeah. So now I write books and talk and hope that other people can use these, these ideas.
- 34:54 – 37:30
The hidden tax: emotional labor, eggshells, and why narcissistic leadership is deadly
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I just wanna ha- I feel like this ethical obligation to pause us right now.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Like in the... You know, normally it'd just be you and me talking, but in the room, just to say that I want to like, first of all, I'm really, I'm really sorry that happened.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, thank you.
- BBBrené Brown
No, I am.
- AGAdam Grant
I'm over it now.
- BBBrené Brown
No, but I am sorry that happened 'cause you're-- it represents something that I'm sure a lot of us have done. I also just wanna acknowledge the fucking emotional labor of having to find what she likes that you can both talk about-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... and having to, you know... Like, I don't know if y'all are familiar with like the eggshell thing, like walking on eggshells, and how traumatic that is for those of us who grew up in houses where you had to kinda walk on eggshells sometimes because you couldn't predict erratic behavior. And then like having to talk, like that's not free for people that have to do that. And like just to get very, and this is gonna be opinion, but like the closer you are away from what power looks like in your organization in terms of gender and race and ethnicity and age, the heavier that load is to pick up and to have to carry around. Like that is not free. Like if you, if, if you're like, "Good morning, Adam Grant, here's your hundred dollars to spend for the day," in cognitive lift and emotional lift, you could spend seventy of it if you were a generous employee on mission, but you will not have seventy of it to do that day if you're working and you're-- So you're gonna spend sixty-eight fifty-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... or sixty-eight ninety-nine trying to figure out what fun thing about Survivor you could talk to her about, and you're gonna have a dollar oh one left to spend at work.And the hard thing is that the spend that we make, it's not like we walk through the back door at the end of our, our, our office day, and then the bank account was like, ching, ching, $100 to find the goggles and the shin guards and to see what's for dinner-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... and your mom lost her meds, and no, you got like, you got $14.50 left, folks. You know? And so it's like that's why I would say have a plan B-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... and document because in the world today, in the US I would say, we're looking at some of the consequences of this style of leadership. And, like, people are dying. So, like, I don't think these are easy behaviors to change.
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- 37:30 – 39:29
Contextual amplifiers: why narcissism thrives in uncertainty, exhaustion, and spectacle cultures
- BBBrené Brown
Like, I'm looking at the things I listed, like taking undue credit, assigning undue blame, devaluing dissent. Um, and then this was what I thought was interesting. In the research, they call them contextual amplifiers. So what is the environment in which this thrives, right?
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
Uncertainty, depletion and exhaustion. This one freaked me out. Systems that reward spectacle and self-promotion.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm. It's like I'm in church.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Mm. But the reason why I thought this was so huge is because as a leader in an organization, like I have a team in an organization, I can choose every day whether we build a culture that rewards spectacle. Like what I'm trying to tell my people right now is we've been grinding really hard for the launch of the podcast, but what I'm trying to, like, build into my team is this should never be normalized. We should not take our endorphins from grind. We should take our joy at work from groundedness, predictability, and stability, not from grind.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
You know what I mean? Like, we will have to grind at times.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
But there's less glory in that than we, what we think. Do you know what I mean?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
What do you think?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I'm having a hard time disagreeing with that, which is a little disappointing given-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... given how often we are not on the same page. No, I think, I think that's right. Sorry. What I should have said was, "I agree, Brené."
- BBBrené Brown
Well, good. I have a hard question for you.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh-oh. Bring it.
- BBBrené Brown
I was rereading the op-ed. It's in The New York Times. We'll link it in the show notes on the podcast.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, we're gonna have show notes?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
This is exciting.
- BBBrené Brown
Paul.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, Paul's gonna do it.
- BBBrené Brown
Paul's gonna do it.
- AGAdam Grant
He's gonna do it.
- 39:29 – 47:22
Where’s the line? Narcissism vs self-involvement (grandiose vs vulnerable, and anxiety)
- BBBrené Brown
Um, when you... Where would you draw, and this is for my own personal interest, where would you draw a line between, man, this is a narcissistic pattern of leadership behaviors versus self-involved or ambitious?
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, that's a good question. That's a very good question. I think, I think ambitious is easier to distinguish than self-involved.
- BBBrené Brown
God, me too. I... It's almost the outlier, right? Ambition.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Like, so l- okay, so let's take s- ambitious off. Let's take-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, wait, you're taking... I was gonna... That was the easy one.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Go, go.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Go, go, go, go.
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I know. I know. I know. I know.
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- BBBrené Brown
The other two are more nuanced, don't you think? Like, those are really narcissistic trends versus these are, this person's just really self-involved. That's different, I think.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so l- I think this is... It would be helpful maybe to, to get to the bottom of this by distinguishing between two flavors of narcissism, grandiose and vulnerable. One of them is named after your work, so-
- BBBrené Brown
I reject that claim, but go ahead.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] One, one of them is named in a way that will feel very familiar to you.
- BBBrené Brown
Better.
- AGAdam Grant
I think [laughs] when, when I, historically, when I've studied narcissistic leadership, I was thinking about the grandiose kind, the larger than life, I am the most important person in the room, it is all about me. That's the, that's the aspect of narcissism that Lyndon Johnson scored highest on when, uh, political scientists and historians rated the, the American presidents. Um, it's, it's sort of the Steve Jobs flavor as well. But we forget that there's a vulnerable variety as well, which is the... it's more fear-driven and less ego-driven, of, to go back to your, your point at the beginning, it's not just I'm afraid of seeming ordinary. It's a f- it's a, it's a fear of being worse than ordinary, of being inferior. And it seems from my read of the research, vulnerable narcissists are extremely self-involved, extremely self-involved. But they don't walk around thinking they're God's gift to humanity. They walk around thinking, "Oh, no. Oh, no. Everybody's judging me negatively, and I've gotta, I've gotta bend over backward to please them and curry favor with them and convince them that, in fact, I'm worthy." And I think that that, that is a way of being self-involved that's different from kind of the grandiosity that we've been critiquing today.
- BBBrené Brown
Wow, that's really interesting. M- yeah, but I think as-
- AGAdam Grant
It's still narcissism, though
- BBBrené Brown
... uh, but as, still as malignant in my mind.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, it is. Okay, so let me, let me try one other way to get at your question, then, since you rejected that one just now. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Next.
- AGAdam Grant
She was like, "Uh-uh. Uh-uh." I saw it. You were, you were like, "Mm-mm."
- BBBrené Brown
Uh, no.
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- BBBrené Brown
No. I, I, I get it intellectually.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I'm tracking research-wise.
- AGAdam Grant
Still bad.
- 47:22 – 1:02:24
Judgment, bias, and power proximity: protecting yourself without letting narcissists own the room
- AGAdam Grant
Turn your one day into day one. Go to hostinger.com/cshop, that's the letter C, S-H-O-P, to bring your idea online for under $3 a month. Plus, get an extra 20% off with promo code CSHOP. That's less than the price of a cup of coffee per month. That's hostinger.com/cshop, promo code CSHOP for an extra 20% off. I, I wanna pick up on this, this theme of judgment, which I think is so interesting. I think that people, people are judgmental because they're trying to be discerning, and what they don't realize is that judging actually impairs judgment.
- BBBrené Brown
Wait a minute. I'm gonna disagree. Hold on. I feel it coming. Wait.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, good.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Wait. No, wait. Judgment? Say that part-
- AGAdam Grant
Judging impairs judgment, so let me explain what I mean by that
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, I believe that. Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
So the moment that I judge you, I am no longer capable of looking at you through an even close to neutral lens. Right? I've already predetermined what you're like. I have identified a list of flaws, uh, or, uh, shortcomings of yours, and at that point I can't see you accurately. I can't see you clearly anymore. And so I've judged you instead of actually being an accurate judge of you.
- BBBrené Brown
But what if I'm right? [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, then you are too invested in being right.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm asking for a friend.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] What if my, what if my judgment is spot on?
- AGAdam Grant
Well, we, we were texting about this, but we didn't talk about it.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, that's right-
- AGAdam Grant
Should we talk about it?
- BBBrené Brown
... 'cause you said save it for the podcast. Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
So okay, so I think that, that sometimes-Um, you have, you have strong reactions, uh-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, shit
- AGAdam Grant
... so-
- BBBrené Brown
You mean this conversation.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Do I have this conversation?
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Sometimes you have strong reactions to people you've just met. Is that a fair statement? Especially if they're, if they're influential.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I don't like fancy people.
- 1:02:24 – 1:04:36
Closing: disagreement with respect and the podcast invitation
- BBBrené Brown
And listen to the podcast, The Curiosity Shop-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... wherever you listen to your podcasts or on YouTube.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[cheers]
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. So I think, I think this, this recording is gonna launch as our third podcast, so just, I'm curious 'cause we have 22 seconds left, what do y'all think? Podcasts?
- SPSpeaker
[cheers]
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. We, we don't always get along.
- AGAdam Grant
We-
- BBBrené Brown
No, we always get along. We always get along.
- AGAdam Grant
Mostly.
- BBBrené Brown
But we, but we don't always agree. But I think that's okay today, right? People need to be able to get along and not agree-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... potentially. But I'm grateful for you.
- AGAdam Grant
The gratitude is mutual. I'm not gonna make a cheesy-
- BBBrené Brown
Aw
- AGAdam Grant
... heart symbol. I like you.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I really do.
- SPSpeaker
[cheers]
- BBBrené Brown
I know y'all had a lot of choices about where to go with your, your fancy badges, um, but we were really excited about launching the podcast at South by Southwest and really excited to do it with y'all.
- SPSpeaker
[cheers]
- BBBrené Brown
And so we're grateful. So thank y'all. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brené Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.
- AGAdam Grant
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.
- BBBrené Brown
Thanks to Canva for their support. With incredible tools to boost your design and productivity, Canva can help turn that idea into an actual thing. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, from logos to websites, it's time to turn that idea into something real. Canva, it's the thing that makes anything a thing. Learn more at canva.com.
- AGAdam Grant
Thanks to SAS for their support. It's an important question to ask of any corporation: Are the company's values aspirational, or are they actually showing up in what people do? Data and AI leader SAS lands in the second category. SAS has 50 years of experience helping people and organizations make better decisions with data, and they brought that same rigor to AI, building accountability and human oversight into the technology itself. Visit sas.com to learn more about SAS's commitment to responsible, trustworthy AI. That's S-A-S.com
Episode duration: 1:04:39
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