The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantThe Four Kinds of Connections We Need | The Curiosity Shop
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 11,089 words- 0:00 – 1:19
Welcome to The Curiosity Shop
- BBBrené Brown
Hi, Adam
- AGAdam Grant
Hey, Brené
- BBBrené Brown
How are you?
- AGAdam Grant
I'm excited for this. How are you?
- BBBrené Brown
I'm excited for this. I am feeling very vibey.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I am so vibey.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh.
- BBBrené Brown
Let me just-
- AGAdam Grant
Now, now I know why-
- BBBrené Brown
Go ahead
- AGAdam Grant
... uh, no, no, no, you go. You go. Sorry.
- BBBrené Brown
No, you go.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, now, now I know why Elena, our 15-year-old says, "Stop saying vibe, Dad."
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Wow. Did I just catch a stray through you from your daughter? [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Maybe a little.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Collateral damage.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Well, um, I love it. I really love it.
- AGAdam Grant
Thank you.
- BBBrené Brown
I learned so much. Oh, this is gonna be so fun 'cause I'm gonna say vibe and vibey 300 times, and I'm gonna watch you squirm, um, in your discomfort around compliments. This is gonna be, like, my favorite episode.
- AGAdam Grant
Don't kill the vibe, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Well s- [laughs] Well, Aaron thought it was funny. Aaron-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Aaron par- Aaron party of o- Par- Aaron party of one. [upbeat music]
- 1:19 – 5:29
The Last Episode of The Curiosity Shop
- BBBrené Brown
This is also our last episode of The Curiosity Shop. We are coming to the end of season two, and we have decided that while we will continue to do fun work together, The Curiosity Shop experiment has come to an end.
- AGAdam Grant
It's been incredibly fun and one of the best learning experiences of my life, and if our lives were less complex, we would keep doing it.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I have to say that... And I think it'll be important for people who've been on this whole journey with us, and we're so grateful for those of y'all who have listened and watched since the beginning. Um, we went into this in tiny experiment mode. I... Do you think it's fair to say that we overestimated the transferability of our audio-only podcast life and underestimated the complexity of the new podcast environment?
- AGAdam Grant
Big time.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. And-
- AGAdam Grant
This, this is, this could be-
- BBBrené Brown
Our schedules
- AGAdam Grant
... a full-time job. Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, this is... Yes, our schedules. I think that we have an incredible team who I think we both wanna say we're super grateful to. Um, we made it work, but our calendars are nuts. And the, a- and audio only gives us the ability to, like, record in a k- tiny kiosk in an airport somewhere. [laughs] But that's not the new, that's not the new vi- that's not the... Oh, God, I didn't mean to say vibe.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
That's not the new, um, podcast environment. So I wanna say thank you to you. Um, you have been an incredible, um, co-conspirator, partner, friend, uh, I would say pal, and in many instances, companion. We'll get into those words in a minute. Um, and I've learned a ton about myself and us.
- AGAdam Grant
Sentiments are mutual. When we first started, there were people who know and love both of us who told us we wouldn't last a season. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] It's true.
- AGAdam Grant
And-
- BBBrené Brown
There was a lot of them. The, the, we were... The, the, the betting, the betting pools were terrible.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, and yet here we are finishing season two much closer than we began-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... season one. And I just, I really appreciate how much I've gotten to know you through this project and how much I've learned from you, and I feel like I need to go back and listen or watch... No, I'll probably listen. [laughs] I need to go back and listen to a bunch of the episodes 'cause I have not captured all the learnings.
- BBBrené Brown
Same. And stay tuned at the end of the podcast after we talk about Vibe, which is the most perfect book for our final episode, um, 'cause I think we can talk a little bit about what we've learned from each other as we go through this. We will talk about a couple of opportunities to see us together 'cause we, we have big plans for the future already, um, about some stuff we're gonna do. One of them is my favorite idea of all times, and the fact that I'm just gonna say three words, but I'm gonna hold the rest till after the, after we have our discussion today. Adam Grant, Enneagram.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] I ne- I never thought, I never thought that those, that that word, I never thought that word would be connected to my name.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Nor did I think I would be the one suggesting it, but here we are.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. He did. And, and after the new year, it'll be Adam Grant, Enneagram lover. Um, we'll see.
- AGAdam Grant
I don't know about that. We'll find out.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Might be-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, you know what?
- AGAdam Grant
Might be liker or tolerator.
- BBBrené Brown
No. Nothing short of lover is going to be enough around the Enneagram for me. I want this so bad for us. Mm. Okay, let's talk about the new book.
- 5:29 – 10:31
Why "Vibe" and Why Now?
- BBBrené Brown
Um, okay, I'm gonna put you on the spot. First question is a question that I get when I write books that I hate, so I wanna ask you because I am genuinely curious, not just to grill you. Why this book now, and how did you get here?
- AGAdam Grant
So I'm, I'm just overjoyed that this book is coming out next week because I started dreaming about it in 2014.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh.
- AGAdam Grant
I had-
- BBBrené Brown
12 years ago?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I, it was gonna be my second book. I wrote Give and Take. I was studying how we build relationships where we can help others, and I started to realize that as much as I wanted to classify some people as givers and others as takers, a lot of those dynamics were relationship specific. And some of the people that I knew as very selfish were generous toward others, and vice versa. And so I started thinking then about like writing a book about dynamic duos, and what is it that makes a pair bond thrive. And I couldn't figure it out, and it kinda stayed in the back of my brain. And, you know, fast-forward, we're now in a moment where there is a crisis of isolation.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
In many countries around the world, people are spending more time alone than they ever have. A lot of people, I don't need to tell you, are feeling lonely and disconnected, and now we have people turning to chatbots, machines, and calling them AI companions. That is not companionship. And I think all these things came together, and I started feeling like this is the moment to write about connection. And I also realized I've gone through a transformation over this, like [laughs] this last dozen years, where it hit me that I have gone from being a middle schooler who struggled to have conversations with other people, and stumbled my way through a lot of interactions because I was so shy and so introverted, to, like now I have conversations that other people want to listen to, even if they're not in them. Apparently, I've learned something about how to vibe, and so I think the personal journey coupled with the, the state of the world made me think this is the moment where we need a book about how to spark and strengthen and sustain and scale our connections.
- BBBrené Brown
God, I love that. Okay. And you've done that. Um, one of the things that I love about this book and all your books is kind of the taxonomies that you present and the language that you-
- AGAdam Grant
My favorite thing
- BBBrené Brown
... Is that, oh, no, I lo- I love it too. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
It's my favorite thing. I love doing that.
- BBBrené Brown
I love doing that too. That's my, that's my favorite thing as a researcher, is creating taxonomies, not to be confused with taxidermy, which Adam doesn't like. Um, so taxonomies. So, and I have to say that, I'm gonna just open the book and flip through. Y'all can see that I've got a lot of notes. Or I don't know where, how to get it. Can they see it?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, they can.
- BBBrené Brown
Y- They got it. Okay. Um, when I was reading some of the middle school exchanges that you captured in dialogue, dude, so cringey.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I just, I just, I, I-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... I was thinking to myself, I, I, in that moment, turned into a sweaty palm seventh grader with nowhere to sit. I was just reading them and thinking, um, I don't like, like, you know. So one of them is Adam says, "Hey, Grapes of Wrath was the worst book ever." The guy in the literature class says, "Glad I didn't even do the reading then." Adam says, "Uh, did you see Friends last night?" The guy, "Yeah, it was funny." [laughs] Done. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
End of conversation. I am never gonna try to approach, uh, an acquaintance again.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I mean, it was just... Okay, the first thing I wanna talk about is a taxonomy that you put together that I thought was really interesting, because I've always had a shorthand with my sisters when I'm trying to describe a friend. A friend is not a good word. Like, because then my sisters will say, this is what we say, "Makeup counter friend, someone is sick and dying friend." I'm like, "Oh, God, no. Makeup counter friend." Which means we could have a-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, best pals and companions
- BBBrené Brown
... Yeah, we could have, yes, we could have a really good time, like wandering through a mall and, like dabbling in the makeup counter somewhere, but if something, if hard shit's going down, neither one of us are gonna call the other one. Um, so tell me about the taxonomy of associates,
- 10:31 – 13:28
Associates, Allies, Pals & Companions
- BBBrené Brown
allies, pals, and companions, and why not only is it okay to have different people and different roles, it creates a much more connected life.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I think about associates, allies, pals, and companions as the four kinds of g- good relationships in your life. So associates are people who have compatible needs. So you're looking for a painter, you hire a painter. Uh, you're looking for a handyman or a handywoman, and your neighbor has those skills. Uh, your kids need a ride to soccer practice, and you've got a friend with kids, and you can carpool f- together, right? Those are all associates. Um, the exchange is fairly transactional. You're not expecting any kind of emotional connection, but the, you know, it's, it's a relationship that, that serves a purpose for both of you. I think the more meaningful connections are with allies, pals, and companions. So allies are people who share your goals. You're on a mission together. Pals are people who share your interests and hobbies. You have fun together. And companions are people who share your values. You have deep affection for each other. For a long time, when people didn't show up in the way that I expected them to, I was disappointed, and I even felt, you know, at some level betrayed. Like you, like I, I've had experiences of, you know, opening up to people emotionally, and then them just like not, not responding with compassion, not mentioning. Like I, I told somebody about, um, a really painful experience, a loss I had, who I thought was a close friend. And it never came up again.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
And I was like, "Wow, not a friend." What I now know is that person was not a good companion for me, but he's a great pal, and we enjoy hanging out together, and, like, playing Padel and tennis together, and that's okay. And I think what happens in a lot of our interactions is we have a particular expectation that somebody is gonna fulfill all the roles, or that they're gonna play one of them, and they don't, and then we just think, "Okay, that person doesn't care about me," when in fact, [laughs] they didn't share our expectation. And, you know, somebody was like th- like, somebody was trying to show up as an ally, and you wanted them to be a pal, and they're trying to do a task, and you are basically trying to hang out for coffee, and you're like ships passing in the night.
- BBBrené Brown
What happens when, what happens when two people are cross-purpose on how they think of their relationship? So I'm looking for an associate or an ally, and you're coming at me with real pal and companion energy.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- 13:28 – 14:54
"Palvators" When Expectations Clash
- AGAdam Grant
So Joanna, my oldest, who you know, has-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... she coined a term for this. She calls people Palvators. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
What does that mean?
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] So a Palvator is somebody who is usually an associate, maybe an ally. Um, you have a, an arm's length relationship with them, or, you know, you're doing a work task together, and all of a sudden they try to barge into your personal life. They start texting you to get together for coffee. They wanna have lunch. They wanna go on vacation together. [laughs] Whoa, why did I give you my cell? I am not into this.
- BBBrené Brown
So, so what is the, what's the solution there? How do you, how do you rec- how do you align?
- AGAdam Grant
I just had one of these conversations recently.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm gonna buy them, I'm gonna buy them, I'm gonna buy them a copy of Vibe and say, "See page 24 on taxonomy." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] I mean, I, I literally had this conversation with, with somebody recently. I said, like, "I, I don't, I, like, I really like you. I don't have time for like, for more pals in my life. And if I can be helpful, if I can be supportive, please let me know."
- BBBrené Brown
Damn. Straight up.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I like it.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, the o-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... the alternative is you start ghosting them, and then they take it personally-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... and the relationship fizzles, and I think, look, I think this is way easier in romantic relationships because we have the define
- 14:54 – 20:08
The "Define the Relationship" Talk for Friendships
- AGAdam Grant
the relationship conversation. People say, "What are we?" Or, "What's up with us?" And then like, people used to say, "Are we going steady?" Or, "Do you like me?" Or, you know, "Are we boyfriend and girlfriend?" Or like, "Are we a couple now?" And we just don't have, we don't have social norms for those conversations with non-romantic connections, and I think we should.
- BBBrené Brown
This is so big. This, this is, I think this is one of the big a-has in the book for me.
- AGAdam Grant
Tell me.
- BBBrené Brown
Which is, no, I think this is it, that the taxonomy of meaningful relationships, albeit very different relationships in terms of depth and width, like, I think this has been helpful for me 'cause like when I talk to my kids today, they have a taxonomy for intimate relationships, like, that's so complex. "Oh, are they dating?" "What, uh, what do you mean?" "They're, they're talking."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
"Uh, is that dating?" "No, no, that's a thing." "All right. Okay, so where does it start?" "Talking, a thing, uh, a soft launch, a hard launch." You know, like, so there is a very, I think for self-preservation reasons and vulnerability reasons, vulnerability is the birthplace of invention, so in order to limit discomfort, hurt, we across time have developed taxonomies for intimate relationships, for, you know, intimate relationships. We have never done that with friendships, and there is so much, if not more hurt around being cross-purposes on that.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. Yes. And some of it is, I think, there's a ton of pressure we put on close friendships in particular, that if we're gonna be close, or worse yet, best friends, then we need to be allies, pals, and companions all the time. We need to be each other's go-to for everything, no matter what we need, and that puts a tremendous amount of strain on a friendship. And one of the things that I've been realizing, uh, like, as, as I was writing this book, actually, I realized, wow, I have people that I consider distant companions, which, which sounds like a paradox, but they're people that I could call and say, "Hey, like, I'm really having a hard time grieving," and I know they would show up for me. Like, I-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... I have watched them express compassion. I trust them to be, like, a thoughtful person to console me. But we don't interact that much, and I don't know them that well. I have really close pals who I see on a weekly basis. I have allies that I talk to every day that I would not have that conversation with. And the idea that you can be close in different ways, and, like, I think, well yeah, I think the idea that you can be close in different ways is important. But then the language, to your point, like, we need to figure out how to talk about that, and this is my best shot at synthesizing the research and, and what I've experienced around, like, what are the major different kinds of relationships and roles that we have in our interactions?
- BBBrené Brown
I think this is really important because I think there's a lot of hurt feelings and a lot of casualties around the lack of rumbling and identifying what are you looking for in this relationship, and this is, I love it when we spend time doing this together and I'm not looking for a companion. Like- I, I, yeah, I had a lot of distant companions, too, where I would pick up the phone, they would drop whatever they're doing, "Let's go. What d- what does s- love look like for me right now?" Um, so I think this is, I think this is a really, a pretty serious conversation. Um, I'm not looking for, you know, a BFF from everyone. And that is really important and hard, and I think we're clear on that in the dating world, again, and not so much in friendship world.
- AGAdam Grant
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- 20:08 – 23:03
Wavelengths and Why They Matter
- BBBrené Brown
Tell me about, as we're talking about this, talk to me about what you learned around wavelengths. This is one of my favorite, this is one of my favorite topics in the book.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, what, tell me, tell me what your favorite, like, tell me, I wanna hear your reaction to it.
- BBBrené Brown
I use that word a lot. "I just don't think we're on the same wavelength here." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, and you and I have had hard wavelength conversations.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. We have.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, yeah. And I think, I was just surprised to see it come up.
- AGAdam Grant
Hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
I was surprised to see you grab it by the shoulders and shake it around a little bit, and then befriend it as a way of thinking about connection.
- AGAdam Grant
It surprised me, too. I think I landed on it in part because vibe is a term that calls to mind-
- BBBrené Brown
Right
- AGAdam Grant
... wavelengths. But also because people often have an interaction that feels great, and they mistake that for a certain kind of relationship. And so, like, we could be on the same wavelength, interacting as pals, having a great time. If we ran into each other at a conference, that does n- not mean we're pals. That [laughs] doesn't mean we wanna start hanging out, right? It just means that in the moment, we found a common wavelength. And I think in order to build the connection, we then need to either, you know, have a bunch of repeated interactions where we're continually on that wavelength and then we, like, we realize this is mutual. We wanna, like, we wanna have that kind of bond. Or, like, [laughs] we need to have a conversation about, like, where, where are we headed? What, like, how do we wanna spend time together? And that is, that's a very different wavelength conversation than the one of just, "Oh yeah, like, we were on the same page because I called you for emotional support, and you recognized the vulnerability that I was expressing and responded in kind. And in that moment, we were on the same wave- same wavelength." That's very different from, "Yeah, we're on the same wavelength that we wanna be go-to companions for each other."
- BBBrené Brown
So I think one of the things that struck me about this, I don't know, maybe, maybe my takeaway from the entire book was clarity and agency.
- AGAdam Grant
Hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
I have a clear understanding of what's happening be- that I could never name, and now I've got words for it. And it, the words that I have for it and the understanding that I have for it now that I didn't have before I read the book is filling me with a sense of agency about what I can build, and also what has been important to me but has been told to me it's not important, but it was. So let me give you an example.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, tell
- 23:03 – 27:40
The Three-Hour Flight "Single Serving Friend"
- AGAdam Grant
me.
- BBBrené Brown
I flew home. Oh, you and I were both at the same conference in, um-
- AGAdam Grant
In California
- BBBrené Brown
... in California, yeah. And I flew home, um, from that flight sitting next to someone I didn't know very well, that I had met. He was at the conference. Um, and it was, you know, a two-and-a-half, three-hour flight from, we were flying out of LAX back into Austin. And we were vibing. We, our wavelength was, i- i- if, if a wavelength is guitar strings, this was a 12-string guitar. I mean, we were kind of the same age, kids getting married, la- laughing so much that other people from the company, from, he's, he works with, with BetterUp. Other people from BetterUp were like, "Do we need to separate the two of y'all?"
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, we were hooting and hollering. And it was, and I, I mean, let me tell you something. I didn't get my laptop out or work on a flight for three hours. Like, it was just-
- AGAdam Grant
That's unheard of
- BBBrené Brown
... yeah. I mean, we were showing each other pictures, we were telling stories, we were laughing about stuff. And we haven't talked since then. And I think one of the things that, one message that society gives us is that didn't mean anything. Because are, are y'all, like, super best friends? Are y'all BFFs now? No. We jammed for three hours, and in some material way, that made my life better. That, that, that made my life better. Like, no, I haven't seen him since then or talked to him, and I didn't follow up with a text that said, "Hey, do you wanna go grab a burger?" Like, we both have big lives and kids and, you know, and jobs and... But the importance of that conversation should not be diminished. Even though I had a very vibey, 12-string guitar wavelength conversation for someone for three hours, it made things better for me and my life.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And I don't know why or how, but after reading this book, I feel like it.
- AGAdam Grant
That's, that's such a good point, and it's, it's an interesting example. So in Fight Club, that person would be called a single serving friend, right?
- BBBrené Brown
Same thing.
- AGAdam Grant
That was [laughs] that was somebody who fulfilled a purpose in a moment. You're, you're both kind of unplugging from this conference and-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... seeking a certain kind of connection. It sounds like you had a great pal vibe, and maybe there was some allyship going on, too.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
That doesn't mean you need him in that role repeatedly in your life. You can have the high-quality interaction in the moment without it leading to a bond, and that's okay. And I think we live in a world that says, exactly as, as you were foreshadowing, if you don't, if you don't follow up, you are failing that interaction. But the interaction served its purpose. It does not need to turn into an ongoing relationship unless there is an ongoing need for the two of you to solve each other's problems or to play pickleball together or to be supportive of each other, and I think we need to normalize that. I think we know there's a mountain of evidence that having that kind of high-quality interaction boosts our wellbeing and makes us happier in the moment. It leaves us feeling more connected after the fact, and that doesn't mean we need to have follow-up conversations.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, and it's interesting because it's like if I see him again, I'll be, I'll be excited to see him again and give him a big hug and, you know, God, that plane ride was so fun. But I, I think in addition to everything you're saying, I just want people who are listening and watching to know that it matters. You know, I've had conversations like that with strangers on a plane or, you know, at an airport or... I just think knowing that I can vibe with someone I don't know and have a meaningful connection that can be just that can be enough and is a contribution to a better life. Does that make sense? Like, I... It was a big takeaway for me in this book.
- AGAdam Grant
It does make sense. I think, I think we don't value good interactions enough.
- BBBrené Brown
No, we don't.
- AGAdam Grant
I think we-
- BBBrené Brown
'Cause they're so rare.
- AGAdam Grant
They are too rare, but I think we also, like, we do them a disservice because we see them as a st- we,
- 27:40 – 29:40
Value Interactions as "Ends" Not Just Means
- AGAdam Grant
yeah, we think that, like, an interaction is a stepping stone to a relationship, and if it doesn't go there, it wasn't worth it.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
It didn't matter.
- BBBrené Brown
That's it. That's it. That's it. We, we-
- AGAdam Grant
And-
- BBBrené Brown
... have slowly uncovered what it is.
- AGAdam Grant
Why, why did we not talk about this while I was writing the book? 'Cause this would've been a great point to make in it and is now missing from Vibe. But we should value interactions as ends in and of themselves, not just-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... means to the end of a relationship. And to go back to the, like, the different wavelengths, I think we are better at doing this with pals probably than any other category because-
- BBBrené Brown
I believe that's true
- AGAdam Grant
... like, when you're interacting with a pal, you are just there to live in the moment together. Um-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... you wanna laugh at the same joke. You wanna enjoy the same, like, karaoke experience together. You wanna, like, y- you wanna have something, like, you wanna have something fun together that allows you to be in the flow of the experience.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
I think with the other three wavelengths, there's, there's a goal attached. You need something from an associate. You're trying to accomplish something with an ally, and you're also seeking something from a companion. Um, so I wonder, I wonder if part of the antidote to this problem is to say, "Look, like, I'm good at having pal interactions that are just enjoyable, and I don't expect anything out of them at the end of them. What if I applied that lens to companion, ally, and associate interactions, too?"
- BBBrené Brown
Wow.
- AGAdam Grant
Never thought about this until right now.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, it's interesting. I'm thinking to myself, like, I, not that I wanna bring anything back to the UT-Ohio State game 'cause I'm not that petty, but-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, but I, I, I wanna- I was just thinking, this is what I, this is weird. This is what I was thinking when I, the whole time I was reading this, and then it m- forced me into rereading chapters again,
- 29:40 – 31:39
The "Coin Purse" of Connection
- BBBrené Brown
is I wanna think about in my life that I have a little coin purse and that I've only thought about the way to fill that coin purse, before I read the book, was really just companions, and that I put a lot of pressure on myself. Like, I put a lot of pressure on myself that even associates, if I don't turn them into companions, I have failed somehow or it, it's not, you know. And now I have a coin purse, and I was thinking about my flight home from the conference in California. I was also thinking about the people who were sitting next to us during the UT-Ohio State game in the stadium. They, they were, we vibed, and it was fi- like, we didn't, we didn't vibe with the, the drunken people on one side of us, um, or the hateful people on the other side, but the people behind us, we kinda vibed with, and we were high-fiving every great thing, and we were ru- you know, running analysis. And I thought, you know, I got off the plane, and my coin purse was a little heavier. I got out of the UT game, my coin purse was a little heavier, and there's something I'm exercising around wavelength and connection and vibe- Even if that's the extent of it, and I don't think I thought about that before the book.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, that's so interesting. Okay, so two thoughts on that. The first one is, Brené, so you show up at a football game and there are rituals built to make you allies because you're rooting for the same team, and-
- BBBrené Brown
For sure
- AGAdam Grant
... probably rooting against the same team, too.
- BBBrené Brown
For sure.
- AGAdam Grant
And to make you pals in the moment, or at least-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... to have you interact like pals because, you know-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... it's fun to cheer and celebrate and, uh, and, you know, and joke around.
- BBBrené Brown
High five. Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And that brings me to the second point, which is I didn't realize until I finished writing Vibe, that, like, we need all of these relationships in our lives,
- 31:39 – 35:56
Are You an Ally, Pal, or Companion Person?
- AGAdam Grant
and yet we differ in what we tend to seek out and offer to other people. I think this is, this is actually missing from the book, but, like, right after I turned it in, I, I wrote a little quiz to help people assess how they vibe. And I was... As I was writing it, I realized, okay, wait, like, some people naturally seek out allyship. Others, like, their, their immediate go-to way of interacting with others is to try to be pals, and some go right to companionship. And as you were saying this, I realized, oh, you are a companion person. Like, that, that is your default way of interacting with other people. And it actually, it gave me a new lens on how our, like, how our enemies to allies to pals, companions journey has gone, and also on why it's so difficult for you to have parasocial relationships with people in the world. So can I riff on both of those really quickly and get your reaction?
- BBBrené Brown
You can, but I'm already objecting to the premise, but go ahead.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh. I mean, of course you will.
- BBBrené Brown
No, I'm objecting to the companionship is my default.
- AGAdam Grant
Maybe it's not your default. Maybe that's the wrong word. Let me ch- let me try a different frame of that and just tell me, tell me what you think it is. Maybe it's that you are unusually good at companionship and most people aren't, and so-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... they seek that from you-
- BBBrené Brown
I think that's true
- AGAdam Grant
... and you get-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... you get stuck in that role.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. Yeah. Uh, that, that is 100% correct. So Adam, Adam, Adam Grant's analyzing me, folks. Just turn up the dial. Pull over if you're driving.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Stop walking. Um, okay. So say it again, but with that caveat because-
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, good
- BBBrené Brown
... I, I think I am, I think I am a pal lover-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes
- BBBrené Brown
... with ally rising.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
And I end up with companion expectations, which just makes me not leave the house.
- AGAdam Grant
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Jackpot.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
That's exactly... You said it way better than what I was trying to get to, which is I think this is really, this is a big part of why it's so hard for you to have parasocial relationships, where people know your work, and therefore when they meet you, they are seeking an instant companion. They've already felt seen by you, emotionally supported by you, and, like, that's a lot of pressure to put on you. That's a huge burden to be a companion to someone who, to you, is a stranger, even if they feel like they know you.
- BBBrené Brown
That, that's true. That's a little bit true, and I am really just hardwired pal, and my love language as a pal is shit talk. And so, you know, that, that's my, that's my pal language. Um, so that... It's so interesting because when I meet someone for the first time who immediately thinks I'm gonna be a companion, a receiver of hard information, a caregiver for hard information, and I immediately go into some, like, fun bull, kinda bullshitty Texas pal language, they're devastated.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. You've totally let them down. You've violated-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... their expectations.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's interesting.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so that- that's fascinating. I, I realized actually when I took my own quiz, like [laughs] ... Have you taken the quiz?
- BBBrené Brown
I haven't taken the quiz yet.
- 35:56 – 40:54
How Adam and Brené Became Allies
- AGAdam Grant
So I, I've now told the story in the book. You now know it, the full story of the work that I did with the US Women's National Soccer Team.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
And it was during COVID, and I was supposed to help them vibe and build their culture, and some of them were really skeptical that culture mattered, and they said, "This is all about skills on the field-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... not about, like, whether we like each other off the field," which I partially agree with. And some of them were just really skeptical, like, "What is a, like, what is a male social scientist gonna teach us?" And I, I just needed a way to, like, to have that conversation with them that was going to get people to open up both their minds and their hearts. And so I said, "Okay, let's do a speaker series." My vision was I'm gonna in- invite some world-class people to come in virtually. I'll facilitate a conversation. You can do a Q&A with them. And I asked them to nominate their favorite, favorites, [laughs] and Brené, you were the first name mentioned, and you were the most popular-
- BBBrené Brown
Let's go
- AGAdam Grant
... guest-
- BBBrené Brown
Let's go
- AGAdam Grant
... hands down. And I had never thought about it until now, but- Like, I don't think that interaction between you and me would've worked if I had asked you to be a companion, and I had called and I had said, "Hey Brené, like I'm really struggling to get through to this world-class group of female athletes." Like, that would've been yet another burden in your life. But this, like, little, like, allyship commitment of you saying, "Hey, like, it's just an hour. Like, our goals are aligned here. Like, I wanna see the women's national team, [laughs] like, win, win a world championship, and I can help with that," it felt like the right lan- wavelength to start on.
- BBBrené Brown
It's so interesting because I think if you would've called and asked for companionship, I would've given it to you for sure, and happily. Because this is what's weird, and this is what I really appreciate about our friendship, is sometimes I can have conversations with you that I can't have with anyone else in the world because we do the same thing. And I think if you would've called me and said that-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh
- BBBrené Brown
... I would've been like, "Oh God, that's so hard. I've been there. And have you tried this?" Because I'm so desperate for, to, to, to talk to someone that has some of my shared experiences. Like, I, I think we talked about this one time, where I can just call and you can say, "How was the event?" And I was like, "Oh my God, they couldn't get the house lights above 50. I couldn't see anyone's face. I didn't know if it was landing, and then this happened, and then we got this weird thing here." And you're like, "Oh man, did this and this fall out?" I'm like, "Yes." And so there's very few people I can do that with. I mean, party of one. You know, other people can be empathetic-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... but they can't-
- AGAdam Grant
They haven't lived it
- BBBrené Brown
... they haven't lived it. They haven't had a shared lived experience there. And so I think if you would've asked me for companionship there, the unique nature of our friendship-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- BBBrené Brown
... and what we have shared would've done it. Um, I just don't think you would've ever asked me because I don't think we would've had a foundation for it.
- AGAdam Grant
No, we didn't. I couldn't have, I couldn't have made the ask because-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- AGAdam Grant
... [laughs] like we'd met once and then had that-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... really, really unpleasant set of exchanges. But I also think what you're saying is we had a foundation of allyship built in. Like-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... we, we were, we were already allies-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... in the sense that we were trying to help people and organizations in the same ways. And so, like, we, as authors, as speakers, as, um, as, like, advisors, whatever, [laughs] whatever you call the other work we do trying to fix problems in organizations, like, we already had a mission that we shared. And that was-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, we-
- AGAdam Grant
... a reason to interact.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, and I would've been selfless and selfish. I would've been selfless 'cause I would've wanted to help, and selfish 'cause I would've been like, "I don't know. What do you think? What do you do in those situations?" Those are the worst, especially when people don't even understand why you're there, and there's no business case for you being there in the minds of a lot of people that are just like, "This is what happens on the pitch. This is the ability to stay on the ball, move the ball, turn the ball. This has nothing to do whether I hate these people or not." You know?
- 40:54 – 44:04
"Are We Pals?" The Ping-Pong Showdown
- AGAdam Grant
I think we're not p- fully pals because we have never hung out without a purpose. We have never gotten together just to have fun. We are always solving a problem, like, making sense of a shared experience, um, you know, talking through something challenging emotionally. There is always an-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... like we are always allies and/or companions, and I think a true pal, like you just shoot the shit together. Or w- like we're just playing pickle together, and because that hasn't happened, I don't know that we're pals yet.
- BBBrené Brown
But aren't we concerned that if we did something that was pally together, like pickleball or ping pong, that we would get in a fist fight?
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] I think I have-
- BBBrené Brown
Like-
- AGAdam Grant
... enough faith in us at this point. Maybe, maybe before we started The Curiosity Shop that was a risk.
- BBBrené Brown
I would bargain with the devil to beat you in a sport. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Oh, I, I'm hearing a little insecurity coming out there. Why is it so important to you to beat me at a paddle sport? 'Cause I think I'm past that. Like, I could accept if you beat me at ping pong.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, I, I share that. I could, I could accept if I beat you, too.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, well, 'cause you know what? This is... But you know what? I am palling with you right now. This is happening in real time 'cause this is my shit talk. This is my... I, I would not, if, if I didn't think of us pals, I wouldn't be, like, threatening traction to beat you, so that's, I think that's what's happening.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, that's so interesting. This is very meta.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
So for whatever it's worth-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] People are like, "What the fuck are they talking about?" [laughs] Ah.
- AGAdam Grant
My... I, I'm just imagining, I think it should be ping pong 'cause that's the real head-to-head, and also you're less likely to get injured trying to beat me there than on a pickle court. But-
- BBBrené Brown
Do you play a flat game or a spinny game?
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, more, much more flat. You?
- BBBrené Brown
I play a flat... Okay, yeah, flat. Let's go.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. We, I think we need to do this, and I think here's my ideal scenario. Like, it's a 21-19 game. Like, it's a close match. We're equally skilled. And, like, n- we care less about the outcome than the quality of the rallies.
- BBBrené Brown
Aw, that's sweet.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] And also, I have 21 and you have 19.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah, I know. Y- y- yeah, yeah, I know.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I know. [laughs] Yeah. I know. Oh, boy, is that the ping pong paddle calling the ping pong paddle. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, we have to-
- BBBrené Brown
You are as competitive as I am
- AGAdam Grant
... I am, for sure. But we have to quit the podcast in order to remove... Like, right now we're palling, but we're also f- creating a show together and finishing a show together. And so once we're not doing a podcast together, if we play ping pong, we're pure pals. But I guess what you're saying is, like, w- we are pals along with our, like, ally-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- 44:04 – 48:20
Sonder: The New Favorite Word
- BBBrené Brown
I wanna know, oh my, this was my big question, your new favorite word, sonder.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, I love this word so much, so much. John, John Koenig coined it. He is an inventor of emotion words that we've experienced but don't know how to name, and this is like... I mean, this, I- I can't think of anything that appeals more to my inner nerd than [laughs] like the, the center of the Venn diagram of psychology and linguistics.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, me and John, me too.
- AGAdam Grant
And he wrote a whole atlas of the heart to do exactly that. Like, this is, this is our jam.
- BBBrené Brown
This is our jam.
- AGAdam Grant
Sonder-
- BBBrené Brown
Sonder
- AGAdam Grant
... yeah, I think it's such a, uh, I mean, it's, it's, it's become, like, it's become a cultural, like, it's a thing. Like, there are bands called Sonder now. There are people who use it in conversation. I had never heard of it until a former student introduced me to it after a class one day, and she's like, "There's a word for that thing we were talking about." So John defines sonder, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna paraphrase here, but he defines it as the, the, the sadness that you feel when you realize that every single person you meet has lived an entire life of heartbreaks and dreams and experiences as rich and complicated as your own, and you will never know them. And I love-
- BBBrené Brown
That is such a good word
- AGAdam Grant
... the definition, Brené. It's so profound. I love everything about it except I don't think it's sadness. For me, when I feel, feel, uh, like every time I feel sonder, it is a reminder that, like, human beings are 3D, that they exist in many shades of gray, and there's so much I don't know about, like, even my oldest, closest allies, pals, and companions. But it's also a great reminder to get to know my, my new associates or my kind of distant allies on a more human level, and I think sonder is one of the most beautiful parts of the human experience, that if you can recognize that everybody you meet has, like, actually experienced the same level of, like, inner drama and turmoil and sort of Technicolor life that you have, it's hard not to find something that you can vibe on.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I, I think it's a beautiful word. I had a hard time connecting it with grief or sadness. To me, like, when I feel sonder, I feel wonder.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
Like, I feel-
- AGAdam Grant
Awe
- BBBrené Brown
... awe, yeah, awe and wonder were the words that came up for me, so awe as a reminder of smallness in a big universe and wonder as something that drives curiosity and humility. You know?
- AGAdam Grant
Well, maybe then sonder should be pronounced sunder, like wonder.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
But-
- BBBrené Brown
I think it's a beautiful word
- AGAdam Grant
... I, I feel that too. It's, it is such a prompt for curiosity to feel sonder.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Like, oh, there's so much, like, there's so much that you have experienced and thought and felt, and I wanna understand it all. I did a rethinking podcast with John about this because I wanted to understand, like, what, what is it for him that's sad about it? And he said the sadness for him comes into knowing that he will never fully know somebody else's experience, and he will never, like, he'll, he'll never fully know a person, and he'll also never fully be known. And I thought-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm
- AGAdam Grant
... yeah, but isn't that part of the beauty and mystery of humans, that you can be married to somebody for decades and still be discovering new things about them?
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
That you can have a childhood friend that, like, knows you better than anybody at, in, at some level and yet is completely transforming before your eyes. I, I think that's, like, that's part of the magic of human existence.
- 48:20 – 53:05
Holding On and Letting Go, Parenting and Sonder
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I just, I remember talking to C- Steve. I didn't have the word sonder, um, but I remember talking to Steve when Ellen, our oldest, started fourth grade, and there's something really, really significant that happens with 8 to 10-year-olds where they, it's the first time they're building an internal world of, like to use your, to use your phrases, Technicolor, heartbreak, love, excitement, devastation, that you will not know-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... as their parent. And I remember there was a grief attached to that for me. Like, you are, you have an internal landscape now- That belongs to no one but you, and I will hopefully have the privilege of, of you sharing stories about that landscape with me. But I will not have access to those rooms.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, we need a word for this, Brené. Th- this is, this is a parenting experience that I've never heard anyone else des- describe. Allison and I talked about it. We felt it earlier. We felt it when we first dropped Joanna off at preschool.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
She was three years old-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... and one of us had been present for essentially every moment of her life.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And to know now that she was gonna go and have interactions and experiences that we wouldn't understand and be able to support her through-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... it, it was, it, it was, yeah, I use the term grief. Like, we were, like, we were losing something. We were letting go.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And the part that, that hit me the hardest was knowing that she would have experiences she wouldn't remember, and then we would-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... never even find out about them.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And that was so hard, but it was also the beginning-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh
- AGAdam Grant
... of learning how to send a kid off to college.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it's just... Yeah, they have to have those rooms that only they occupy and assign meaning to, and they decorate those rooms with their own pictures of heartbreak and hope and possibility and crushes. And I think for me, I think it was, I think it was third or fourth grade, because it was the first time that the report home had shortcuts where she had attached meaning to things, and they weren't fully descriptive, and we didn't help her make meaning of what she experienced. She had her own portrait of meaning, you know? And it, it's like there is... That's what I thought about when I read Sonder. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
That's so powerful. You know, the, the other thing... Sorry, were you gonna say something?
- BBBrené Brown
No, no, no, no. I'm just thinking it's hard.
- AGAdam Grant
It i- it is hard. I think it, it's such a valuable learning experience, though. I think, y- what you just made me think about was, like, the, like, the core of the feeling was, "Oh, no, she's not gonna need me anymore."
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And that was painful.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And then I woke up one morning and realized I don't, I don't need to be needed. I just wanna be valued and appreciated.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Like, my job as a parent is to raise strong, independent kids who can trust their own judgment, and if they still need me, like, I'm gonna be a helicopter parent or a snowplow parent.
- 53:05 – 57:23
What "Vibe" Rearranged for Adam
- BBBrené Brown
It's a two-parter. What do you know now that rearranged your previous thinking, and how has that changed the way you show up and actually behave? Like, what is, what are one or two things that this really, this rearranged some things for me. Like, any, if a good book doesn't rearrange furniture in my mind, then I don't really put it in the good book category. Um, I put it in the interesting maybe, but if it, it, if it has to move some shit around where I'm like, "Ugh, I'm gonna stumble. I'm gonna hit my pinky toe on this because it's in a new place now," that's a good book to me. What got rearranged for you and why, and how are you doing things differently because of it a- after having written it?
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, there's so much. I think part of the fun of writing the book was, like, it was a chance to reexamine the way that I approach all my interactions and relationships and ask, you know, what, what makes sense and what doesn't. And I think one of probably the biggest changes for me is I've been really grappling for a long time now with the dilemma of not having enough time for all the people who matter to me, and I think it's one of the reasons that I've defaulted to allyship because you can be a good ally who parachutes in-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... without-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... having to spend a ton of time in companionship or a lot of time just kinda catching up as pals. And I've realized that that has stunted my relationships in certain ways because I've been closed off. Like, even if I'm not gonna be, like, [laughs] regular pals or companions with someone, I can still interact on those wavelengths. Uh, and I think that's been a big shift, and I think one of the places that it landed me was it led me to realize that one of the solutions to my problem is, like, I need to do this more at scale. Not every relationship needs to be one on one. There can be people who I think are amazing allies or pals or companions, and I can get together with a g- them in a group setting. Um, we can, like, I have, I have started doing so many more when I travel, "I'm coming to your city, um, and I would love to see you. And what I'm gonna do instead of just suggesting that we have dinner is I'm gonna invite my eight favorite people." ... who I would love for you to meet. And we're all gonna pal around at that dinner, and then that's gonna keep us connected. But you also have made some new friends, and I've brought some people into your life. And the, [laughs] the two of you or the three of you updating me is gonna be an occasion now for all of us to stay in touch. I think that that's been a big shift. It's also, like, it's led me to do a lot more organizing of gatherings to say, like, if, if I could bring all of the people that I think are exceptional allies and pals and companions together, we can all try to support each other. And I think maybe the biggest-
- BBBrené Brown
Wow
- AGAdam Grant
... the biggest eff- sorry. No, I'll pause there. There's one maybe bigger effect than that, but that, that's just been a shift in the way that I, I navigate a lot of my interactions.
- BBBrené Brown
I, I love this. There's a lot of learning in that for me. Tell me, tell me this last one, 'cause I saw your eye. I saw you getting ready to say another one. What's the, what's the... Is this the big one?
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I don't know if it's the big one. I think it's the, it's the most fundamental one, which is I think that I've been just, I've become much more attuned to what kind of interaction or connection are other people looking for. Like, instead of just defaulting to-
- BBBrené Brown
Wow
- AGAdam Grant
... how can I be a good ally, I'm just trying to pay attention in, in every interaction I have to is the other person or, or the other people, are they in need of companionship right now? Uh, can I add more to their life by being a fun pal and just distracting them from the hard thing in their, in their situation, or is this actually the right moment for me to be an ally and try to help? And one of my hopes [laughs] as, like, as Vibe comes out into the world is that people will recognize this language, and I can use... Like, I would love to be able to use this as shorthand and just say, "Hey, Brené." Like, [laughs] like you, you texted me and you said, "Hey," like, "this was hard." Can I just... Like, I would love to be able to say, "Hey, Brené," like, "are you looking for a pal, companion, or ally right now? How can I best show up for you?"
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- 57:23 – 1:02:04
Friction Is the Prerequisite for Connection
- BBBrené Brown
I don't know. It's, like, it's a very, it's a very ballsy move to invite the world to have the same kind of conversations we have and, about, you know, intimate relationships with friendships. And I, and I do think it's not frictionless what you're, what, what you are, what you are suggesting by default has some friction in it, and friction is where real relationships are made, where real connections happen. That's why people go to the chat box, 'cause it's frictionless, but it's not real. Like, no one's gonna hold your head back, your h- no one's gonna hold your hair back when you're throwing up in chemo. No chat box is gonna do that. You know, it's just... And so I, I like the fact that we're worth the friction, the relationships are worth the friction, and that naming things and clarity leads to closeness in, in all four of these. Closeness, you can be a close ally and a close pal and a close companion and a close associate. Like, I have close associates.
- AGAdam Grant
Me too.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. And so I think, 'cause I was thinking what word would I use for Vibe, and closeness came up for me just because those thi- to me, closeness is impor- and connection is important regardless of what we're looking to build here together.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. For me too.
- BBBrené Brown
It-
- AGAdam Grant
And I think [laughs] this is, this is such an interesting revelation or realization. It's a, it's an aha moment for me. I think a lot of people are afraid of friction.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I think they're afraid of rejection, of putting themselves out there and being vulnerable and saying, "I wanna be a pal." And what if the other person-
- BBBrené Brown
For sure
- AGAdam Grant
... doesn't reciprocate?
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
They're afraid of the conflict that might arise of, you know, it leading to a fight and maybe damaging the relationship. And I think what I have realized, not just from the evidence, but also through living this, is if your interactions cannot withstand friction, you don't have a relationship to begin with. It's a charade.
- BBBrené Brown
Friction is the prerequisite for Vibe. It is the prerequisite for connection. It is the pre... Friction is the prerequisite for a meaningful relationship. You know, I, I'm thinking about an associate which you, you gave, like a handywoman or a, or somebody. If that can't ta- if that can't make it under, "Hey, I think we were not aligned on what we wanted to get done here, and this is what it was, and this is how much I thought it was gonna cost," then I'm going on to the next person. Like, that's over. And so I, I'm thinking about our conversation with Priya-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, me too
- BBBrené Brown
... um, Parker, about how the willingness to be in friction and kind of stay in the heat a little bit, I can see how we're lonely if we spend every waking moment avoiding friction.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Yeah, and I think, like, I don't think you and I would have any kind of ongoing relationship if we hadn't both been willing to brave the unpleasantness and the awkwardness of talking through a lot of our differences, a bunch of our disagreements, and doing that saying, "I wanna have this conversation because I care about our relationship-"
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... "and I care about you."
- BBBrené Brown
I agree. I mean, it w- our, our relationship was forged and born in friction, and then we got really... It was interesting 'cause I think b- both Allison and Steve, our partners, were like, "Oh my God, you have to have a hard conversation with Brené and/or Adam tomorrow." And we're both like, "Yeah, we come out of those fine. We come out of those better than we go into them. I'm good." I, I was happy to read in Vibe that I am credited with the longest text conversation of your life. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
Multiple, in fact. I think the leaderboard is just-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... Brené, Brené, Brené, Brené, Brené
- BBBrené Brown
As every leaderboard should be. Um, thank you for writing the book. Thank you for the exploration. Thank you for the language. Thank you for the, the, the... It's, there are uncomfortable parts of it for me when I was reading it. I was like, "Ooh, I don't want this to be true." Um, but that's really, you're good at that. Um, shall we tell people where they can find us together in the future?
- 1:02:04 – 1:05:49
Future Events
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I'm, I am tremendously excited for October 28th-
- BBBrené Brown
Yep
- AGAdam Grant
... when we will be on stage in Dallas together for The Vibe Book Tour, and we would love to see a bunch of Curiosity shoppers.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
They're not shoppers, but-
- BBBrené Brown
No. Curiosity Shop-
- AGAdam Grant
Shoppies?
- BBBrené Brown
... shoppies.
- AGAdam Grant
Shoppins? Shopper- no.
- BBBrené Brown
Now we're getting too muppety.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. Whatever, whatever we call our-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... our folks, uh, anybody who is in the neighborhood, we will be live in Dallas, and you can find the tour info in the show notes if you wanna come and see us. And-
- BBBrené Brown
Love it
- AGAdam Grant
... I'm excited for that, and we may turn that into a, a podcast for Rethinking at a future date.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes, for sure.
- AGAdam Grant
And I'm also excited, Brené, to have you on in 2027 on Rethinking when we are, and I cannot believe, I, I still cannot accept that this was my idea. We're gonna talk about the Enneagram, which I've never taken. I'm gonna take it, and then I'm gonna try to link it to [laughs] modern personality science and figure out if we can put some evidence behind what I trust from you and also from some research Brian Little did is, like, actually a tool that is not at odds with the best data about how we all differ from each other.
- BBBrené Brown
It's gonna fall sh- I mean, modern science is going to fall short of the Enneagram, but I am gonna be here for you, to pick you up companion-style and walk you through the power of the Enneagram. And I have a guess what your number is, but I'm not supposed to guess 'cause I'm a number one, and I'm-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... like, bossy like that. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I'm also often right about 95% of the time.
- AGAdam Grant
And-
- BBBrené Brown
But-
- AGAdam Grant
And I'm gonna be-
- BBBrené Brown
... I'm excited about that
- AGAdam Grant
... well, and I'm gonna be a good ally in saying, "Brené, there are some things missing from the Enneagram that we have decades of evidence on, and I would really like the tool to keep up with the data."
- BBBrené Brown
The only thing missing from the Enneagram, Adam Grant, is you. So once you come aboard-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... we're gonna, we're gonna crush it. Um, this has been such a fun experience.
Episode duration: 1:05:49
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