The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantWhy Grit Isn’t Always Enough with Angela Duckworth | The Curiosity Shop
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 11,839 words- 0:00 – 4:14
Welcome to The Curiosity Shop
- BBBrené Brown
Hi there, Adam
- AGAdam Grant
Hey, Brené
- BBBrené Brown
Just have to ask you, did you, did you... As, as a Michigan fan, did you catch the UT-OSU game?
- AGAdam Grant
I have never rooted so hard for UT, ever.
- BBBrené Brown
Let's go. Talking about grit, which we are talking about today, and talking about the situation of 100,000 fans in DKR Stadium, what a game.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I felt much better about that actually than the, the Michigan victory squeaked out in an extra second that I'm not sure we deserved.
- BBBrené Brown
Ooh, God. Let me just tell you this. I thought of you when, at the UT game, they panned to a guy who had your Michigan hat on, I think the one that's probably you wear sometimes, and then he just had a T-shirt that said, "I'm not a Longhorn, I'm just here to hate watch OSU."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And I was like-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Wow, that's a commitment to hating OSU, man
- AGAdam Grant
I'm getting that shirt.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
My, my uncle had a bumper sticker on his car growing up. He's a, he's a huge Wolverine fan, and it said, uh... I think it said something like, "Drive south until you smell it and then east until you step in it."
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] What is that? What's the... I guess it's like the UTAAM or OU hate. It's just so deep. Um, okay, I am very excited for Angela Duckworth today, and we're talking about her new book, Situated. I'm stoked. This was a hard book for me.
- AGAdam Grant
It's... I think it's a really important book, and I, I read a whole bunch of early drafts. Angela's been one of my closest colleagues and friends for two decades now, and I think she makes everyone around her better. I, I-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
It's such a privilege to, to have her at my school, um, [laughs] in my life. And we could go inside baseball very quickly. [laughs] I think there's, there's a danger-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, I bet y'all can nerd out
- AGAdam Grant
... that we're speaking code.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
So I, I think you should run the show on this one, and I'll, I'll jump in where relevant.
- BBBrené Brown
I'll do it. Yeah, I mean, I, you know I have 742 questions, um-
- AGAdam Grant
Of course you do
- BBBrené Brown
... and I need a lot of personal therapy and help. So great. I'll run the show. You jump in. Um, 'cause I do have a lot of questions for her, um, around... Well, let's talk about who she is first. Uh, she's a psychologist and a professor who researches motivation and achievement. And I'm reading this from the prologue 'cause I thought this was a great... We'll put her formal bio on the, the Cure- the Curiosity Shop website, but this is a really great way to think about her work. She writes that she's a psychologist and professor who researches motivation and achievement. She began her career studying remarkably successful people. After a decade of study, she took a six-month sabbatical and did her very best, she said, to write their stories in her book, Grit, which summed up everything that she knew about passion and perseverance, um, for long-term goals. Another decade has passed now, and in that time, she's turned her attention from the psychological profiles of high achievers to a different common denominator, the strikingly similar features of their situations. In other words, her curiosity has taken her from what goes on inside the minds of high achievers to everything and everyone around them.
- AGAdam Grant
It's, I think it's-
- BBBrené Brown
Which, what a cool move
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, it's so important. It's, it's like the missing piece of the grit puzzle. And I think... I, I'm excited to talk to her about, like, what are the kinds of situations to select ourselves into, and then what do we do to change our situation to try to bring out the best in us and those around us.
- BBBrené Brown
I can't wait. And I'll just be... I'll confess that I, I read this from a research perspective as someone who studies courage and vulnerability, but I cried like seven times in reading the book. Like, it's, it was really personal, so I'm excited to, to tell her, uh, thank you and frick you, um, because in equal measure, it was tough. It was so insightful and also hard. Let's jump in.
- SPSpeaker
[upbeat music]
- 4:14 – 6:23
Six Words for the Book "Insightful, Painful, Hopeful"
- BBBrené Brown
Angela Duckworth, you are in a shit-ton of trouble with me.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Are we gonna beef?
- BBBrené Brown
We're gonna beef.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Okay. Let's go.
- AGAdam Grant
I'm eating my-
- ADAngela Duckworth
I don't know, I don't know about what-
- BBBrené Brown
Are you-
- ADAngela Duckworth
... but, like, sure.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. This is what I've decided is my six words to describe your new book.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Okay.
- BBBrené Brown
You ready?
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Insightful, painful, and hopeful.
- ADAngela Duckworth
That's good.
- BBBrené Brown
Um-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Wait, is that six?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, the way-
- AGAdam Grant
I count three
- BBBrené Brown
... I'm spelling... The w- No, I'm saying insight period full.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yes, okay, got you.
- BBBrené Brown
Painful.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Definitely painful.
- BBBrené Brown
Hopeful.
- ADAngela Duckworth
I hope so.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, so it is full of... It's, for me, it was full of incredible insight, incredible hopefulness, but it was also a little painful.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Tell me more about the painful part. I wonder what you mean. I have my own version of this, but...
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] I witnessed it.
- BBBrené Brown
Hmm.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah, Adam kind of knows more about the, um, the journey that was, uh, not straight or sure.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, well, first of all, I have to say that this is going to be our next organization-wide read.
- 6:23 – 9:02
"Grit Is One Thing, a Great Situation Is Another"
- BBBrené Brown
This, the, here's, here's a sentence for me that grit is one thing, a great situation is another, and fully realizing your potential requires both. I know in my, in every part of me that that is true, and I hate it.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Because?
- BBBrené Brown
'Cause I, I, I make up that I have complete agency over my grit.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah, over what you do and-
- BBBrené Brown
Uh-huh
- ADAngela Duckworth
... how you think.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. And I wanna, I want to get into... I wanna, I wanna hear from you how, what, what made you do this to me personally? Explain to me what's happening.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, and then I wanna... I have a lot of questions because looking at your work through a courage and vulnerability lens was tough, um, because sometimes the courage is lock in-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... grit up-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... get it done.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Suck it up, buttercup.
- BBBrené Brown
Yep. And sometimes the courage is, have I completely ignored creating the situations around me-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Right
- BBBrené Brown
... that bring ease and flow into my life?
- ADAngela Duckworth
You know, nuance is not very... I don't know if it's popular or not this day. It's certainly not-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- ADAngela Duckworth
... common. Uh, but I hope that's what this conversation is, because there is no one-liner prescriptive. Like, you should just always make the best of your situation. Like, suck it up, suck it in, um-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- ADAngela Duckworth
... grit it out. Uh-
- BBBrené Brown
Let it go
- ADAngela Duckworth
... it's not... Yeah. Pr- yes, right? That's also... You know, whatever, you know, pithy aphorism, right? Like, s- sometimes you have to do that. I do think there is a little bit of a escape patch mindset that some young people have. Like, "This is painful. This is hard. I'm not vice president. I'm already 24." I mean, there, there is a danger in saying sometimes you need to change your situation. It can be weaponized, right? So that, so that you're making excuses and, and not making the best of your situation. Uh, but at the same time, you know, if you're pushing a wheelbarrow through, like, a wet, muddy field, like, girlfriend, like, you're just not gonna get very far. So
- 9:02 – 11:18
Making the Best of Your Situation vs. Changing It
- ADAngela Duckworth
where does your individual effort and grit, wh- where does it pay off? Where does it make sense? I mean, I think, I think the, the advice that I was given a lot growing up was that you make the best of your situation. If you don't like your teacher, you don't complain about your teacher. Like, you get an A anyway. Um, if you don't like your, you know... Well, I was a cheerleader, so I'll just say, like, if you don't like the other girls on the cheerleading team, like, well, you're not gonna change the other girls on the cheerleading team. The only thing you can control is you, right? I, I think, I think the provocative, uh, concept that I'm trying to champion here is that agency isn't just controlling your own thoughts, feelings, and actions. I think there is agency in changing the situation. So sometimes it's exactly what you should do, and it is the courageous and vulnerable thing to do, I think, especially if you've been raised not to think about it, not to complain about it, and not con- consider it something that you have power over.
- AGAdam Grant
Angela, it reminds me a little of George Bernard Shaw. To paraphrase, reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people adapt the world to themselves, and therefore all progress depends on unreasonable people.
- BBBrené Brown
Unreasonable people.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yes, yes. I, I think, um, it's from a play that I only read that little passage of, so, like, [laughs] I don't have the context. But I, I think that's exactly right though, right? I mean, you can't get as far as you want, I think. And also, I don't think you can avoid burnout and exhaustion, uh, if the only tool in your toolkit is just try harder. And, and I, I hope that this perspective, which, which really is a figure ground shift, right? To, like-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- ADAngela Duckworth
... really consider the surroundings, the other people in your life, uh, your entire situation. Un- unless you take it really seriously, unless you bring it into focus, then I think you really only have one toolkit, you know, and one tool in your toolkit. Um, and it took me a while to learn that too. I mean, I think in my 40s is probably the, the, the, the chapter in my life that I would mark as, like, oh, Angela Duckworth finally realized the power of the situation.
- 11:18 – 13:56
Defining "The Situation"
- BBBrené Brown
Let's start with defining what do you mean by a situation?
- ADAngela Duckworth
Brené, I mean everything. Everything outside of your mind really, right?
- BBBrené Brown
Okay.
- ADAngela Duckworth
The situation is physical, right? So you can look around and you can say, you know, "What objects are within my reach and my sight," right? I've got a glass of water. Um, I've got a set of headphones that don't work, right? I'm at, I'm at a wooden table. I'm sitting in a chair. Um, I'm wearing a black dress. Uh, but then of course your situation is also social. Talking to Brené. I'm talking to Adam. Um, uh, I'm in a podcast. So the situation is everything, and everyone around you. And by the way, it extends beyond just, you know, your immediate space. So, you know, what zip code are you in? Uh, what culture are you working in? And so one of the challenges of even beginning a conversation about the situation is It is all of that, and that makes it s- somewhat, you know, intractable, I think, for, for many people to consider what they can do about their situation because it, it has so many layers and so many levels
- AGAdam Grant
But that also gives you so many levers, right? [laughs] If, if a situation is so multifaceted, it means there's more there to change externally than internally.
- ADAngela Duckworth
I think if you're thinking about it that way, yes, right? So if you accept the premise, and again, I do think, I do think it's a paradigm shift. I think it's a different way of thinking. If you consider that the situation is malleable, not fixed, and if you consider your agency to extend from what's inside you to what's outside of you, yeah, then the, the, the options space of things that you might change. You're like, "Oh, you know, I wanna have a water bottle near me. Like, I wanna have, you know, Diet Coke farther away," should that be what you're trying to drink more of and less of. Or, you know, I can move my phone away, so, you know, oh, right, and then I could put my workout clothes out. We could also say, you know, I've been working on this startup, like, and feeling like I'm not getting anywhere. Maybe I should find other people who are working on a startup. Or, or, you know, and the list goes on. Um, and so hopefully considering every element of your situation is important, and recognizing that at least some of them can be changed, it really does open up a world of possibility, you know, from the near to the far.
- BBBrené Brown
Let's go through kind of some of the terminology that you use, 'cause I
- 13:56 – 19:29
Situational Awareness, Agency, and Responsibility
- BBBrené Brown
think it's really helpful to Adam's point about increasing our sense of agency, this, our sense of I, I have some choices here. So when I was writing Strong Ground trying to understand kind of a large collection of skills that are gonna define leadership, it's really interesting because the one that I could not ignore during the interviews was situational awareness. So-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Which is a term, right?
- BBBrené Brown
Right
- ADAngela Duckworth
... that some people use, not, yeah, not-
- BBBrené Brown
Right
- ADAngela Duckworth
... not everybody, right, in business.
- BBBrené Brown
Not everybody. And so what I wanna understand is our situa- So you talk about situational awareness, situational agency, and then also s-
- ADAngela Duckworth
And situational responsibility, which is-
- BBBrené Brown
And situational obligation or responsibility
- ADAngela Duckworth
... most relevant to leadership.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. Okay. So a situation, our situation, which is as important as our get shit done grit-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yes
- BBBrené Brown
... our situation, setting up our space, picking our peers, building relationships with mentors, coaches, um, and choosing our culture and shaping our culture. How do you think about situational awareness? I- if I wanna, I, if I-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... if I'm listening right now and I'm like, "Oh my God, this is... I'm having a Brené reaction to this book"
- ADAngela Duckworth
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... and I wanna develop some situational awareness, what does that mean for you?
- ADAngela Duckworth
Well, let me define it.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay.
- ADAngela Duckworth
I think situational awareness precedes any kind of agency over your situation.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- ADAngela Duckworth
I mean, you have to notice your situation [laughs] right before.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- ADAngela Duckworth
So, so situational awareness is really having some, some conscious attention to who's around you and what's around you. It is not the default. Human beings, by the way, in times of stress in particular, I think you'll agree, look inward and, you know, they just ruminate and you, you know, we, quote unquote, "get inside our heads," right? We sort of have a sense that we're getting inside our heads so much that we get inside our heads even more. And really what situational awareness is, is to direct your attention outward, not inward. Um, and again, it's not necessarily to, like, lay blame at the feet of your situation and then like, you know, like brush off any sense of responsibility that you have to do anything differently. But situational awareness would say, for example, I, I actually made a scorecard, uh, for this book because I am a fan of self-reports as a tool for self-reflection.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- ADAngela Duckworth
And I thought, "Why not make this real?" So you can audit your personal space. You can say, "Do I have temptations like a cell phone or crap to eat? You know, like do I have that within reach and within view? Uh, have I decorated my personal space with reminders of my goals?" Uh, one of the findings in my research with teenagers is we asked thousands of teenagers all across the United States what they did to study for the SAT. We also had their PSAT scores and their SAT scores because we did this in partnership with the college board. And we gave kids like a really long list of things that they might do. I remind myself that college is important. I have a study... But the number one strategy was I write down my goals for studying somewhere concrete, right? Writing it down on a piece of paper, and I post it somewhere I can see it. High achievers decorate their personal space with reminders, with quotes, uh, statements of their mission. Uh, so you can audit your personal space, but I also think you can audit those other social dimensions as well. You can ask yourself, you know, am I trying to achieve these goals with or without a, a group of like-minded strivers who are also trying to start a podcast, trying to write a book, trying to run a marathon? So the list goes on. The scorecard goes on. There are 10 items altogether. I don't score a perfect 10. I, I do think that's what I mean, though, by situational awareness, is to audit your situation, and with as much clear-eyed objectivity as you can find, uh, ask yourself whether it is aligned with your goals or not aligned with your goals. That's where I would begin. And then, of course, creating alignment, that's, that's situational agency.
- AGAdam Grant
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- 19:29 – 21:12
The Kids' Art on the Wall "A Situational Variable"
- BBBrené Brown
So the weirdest thing happened to me when I was reading this book. And I don't know why I'm so emotional about it, but it's really weird. Um, so I split my time between Houston and Austin, and Houston's kind of the house where we raised our kids. And it would be... [laughs] I'm a maximalist, Adam is a minimalist.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Then why are you going to Austin, like at all? I thought you were just in Houston.
- BBBrené Brown
No, 'cause I work in Austin a lot. I teach in the MBA program at UT, and I have a lot of work here.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Mm.
- BBBrené Brown
So-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Okay
- BBBrené Brown
... and both my kids are, have, ha- are off, um, building their big lives. But I, I was sitting in Austin, where I stay when I'm here, and I was doing some creative exercises, and I called Steve, and I was so weepy. And he said, "What's wrong?" And I said, "I can't be creative here." And he, he said, "Why?"
- ADAngela Duckworth
How?
- BBBrené Brown
And I said, "Because there's not enough of Ellen and Charlie's art on the walls here."
- ADAngela Duckworth
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And he said-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Interesting
- BBBrené Brown
... "What do you mean?" And I, I was in your book. And I said, "It's a situational variable." And he said, "Okay." And I said, "There is some beautiful art here and some beautiful photography here, but I need the kids' art to remind me that that's my favorite art, and it's imperfect, and they just did it without thinking about it. And that's what inspires me to do my best work."
- ADAngela Duckworth
You know, it seems like a crazy thing to say, right? Like, you know-
- BBBrené Brown
It does. It does. It feels weird talking about it
- ADAngela Duckworth
... you have your laptop.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- ADAngela Duckworth
You have your, like, uh-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- ADAngela Duckworth
... um, but, and Adam might know this. We, we, we
- 21:12 – 23:34
Bob Cialdini's Office Switch
- ADAngela Duckworth
know... And, and Brené, do you also know Bob Cialdini, the psychologist who wrote Influence?
- BBBrené Brown
No. I don't know him.
- ADAngela Duckworth
He does not hang out in Houston much, nor Austin. Um, but if you ever go to Arizona, I mean, you know, he, he's, uh, that's where he lives. Um, and when he was writing the book Influence, he was finding himself to be, uh, pedantic, long-winded, and dry, which is how you write a scientific journal article. Um, the drier the better, right? And he was just like, "Oh, God. How am I writing a book about my research on persuasion for an audience of more than seven people?" Um-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- ADAngela Duckworth
One second. Sorry, let me just-
- BBBrené Brown
Ha!
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah. It's like, yeah. I think, uh, yeah. Let me just... 'Cause there's a-
- BBBrené Brown
I love it. We had-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... we had a situation moment. I'm for it. Go ahead.
- ADAngela Duckworth
We did. You did. Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- ADAngela Duckworth
We had to exit the situation, and she did. Now she's not here. Um, and, and what he did was he changed where he started writing. He moved from his campus office, where he was Professor Robert Cialdini, to his home office, where he was Bob. And those physical cues, right, the, the, the setting, you know, it, it inspired a different character. And I think this is why when you tune into the Oscars, you know, there is an Oscar for set design. There is an Oscar for costumes. We... You know, Shakespeare said, "All the world's a stage, and each of us its players." And what's on that stage? The props, the backdrop, the lighting. I think it makes a huge difference, and I think we have the view of human beings as being reflective, like we are the reflective animal. Um, but we are much more reactive, I think, than we-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- ADAngela Duckworth
... would, would admit. And so there are these trigger cues, you know. Like when I'm in my house, my voice is a half octave higher than talking to you. Right? Like when I drop into Professor Angela Duckworth and I do this, and I'm like, you know, I'm all business. I have a cousin who's a physician, and we could be having a conversation, but when I trigger cue her with, "So I've got this, like, cut," and sh- her voice drops, and she goes into physician mode, right? So I do think there are these situational trigger cues that bring out one self or another, and they seem trivial, but they're not. They're really not. We should take them seriously.
- 23:34 – 26:35
Habits, Autopilot, and Wendy Wood's Research
- AGAdam Grant
Angela, I think, uh, I mean, I think anyone who's with us right now can relate to this. Like we all have-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... places where we do our best work, where we struggle to concentrate, where we find creative inspiration, where we feel like we've never had an original thought. [laughs]
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
At the same time, I'm really troubled by the, the reality that we are so malleable. And I think about The Power of Habits, which is something you've spent a lot of your career studying, and I think, you know what? I don't have to be in the right hotel room to bl- to brush my teeth. Like, I don't need the right toothbrush or the right floss, right? I do it regardless of my circumstances. And I want to be more immune to my surroundings. What can you tell us about that?
- ADAngela Duckworth
Well, as we all know, you know, nearly half of human behavior is habit, but the other half is goal-directed. That's the research of Wendy Wood. And what has Wendy Wood and other habit re- you know, the, the habit researchers, you know, discovered? Well, you know, you can actually override any habit system with the goal system. Like, if you have the habit of driving home a certain way, you can override it and, like, stop at the supermarket. Human beings are able to do that, but very often we have what are called habit slips, and you're like, "Oh, no, the habit system [laughs] was just in charge." And, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've checked into a hotel and, like, you know, just forgotten to, you know, do one thing or another, especially work out. I'm like, "Oh, right," just, just I didn't have the cues. It wasn't in the routine.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- ADAngela Duckworth
So yeah, maybe I should have turned on my goal system, and sometimes you have to do that. But I think a wiser approach to changing yourself is to start with the situation, and if you are asking me about the science of habit, something that I don't think is understood even though there's so much written about habit, so much, you know, published about habit in the broader, um, you know, in the broader sort of media environment. Here's something that habit researchers like Wendy Wood cannot seem to get across to people. A habit is a behavior that is repeatedly rewarded, and then the brain goes on a kind of neural autopilot. It doesn't need to think, "What should I do?" It just does. But it can only do that in a stable situation. In other words-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- ADAngela Duckworth
... you are not able to do anything habitual unless it has a trigger. The trigger doesn't have to be physical. It can be like when I'm hungry, then I do this. Like when I'm angry, then... And, and I'm not saying all habits are good, right? Like grinding your teeth is a habit, too. Like when I'm stressed. Rrr. Um, but the idea is that preceding any habitual reaction, there is a stimulus, a situational cue, and therefore, if you want to build habits, right, if you're worried about the half of human behavior that is on autopilot and you're saying, "That's where I want my exercise routine," right? "That's where I want my writing routine. That's where I want my mindfulness routine," then you 100% have to honor the situation, and you have to design the situation with the cues that you will reliably encounter.
- 26:35 – 30:23
The Workout Clothes Hack and "Micro Friction"
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God, that is the... You could just come to my house and do a study on if I lay my workout clothes out the night before I go to sleep.
- ADAngela Duckworth
W- is that not the best hack ever?
- BBBrené Brown
That's the best hack ever.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Isn't it? Like, is- isn't it a miracle? Like, 'cause-
- BBBrené Brown
It's a miracle
- ADAngela Duckworth
... it's like, it's like nothing, Brené, right? Like, okay, I keep my workout clothes in this one drawer in my bureau. I mean, it's really not that hard to reach down into this drawer, and it's all, like, folded and dry, so, like, how hard can it be to reach into that drawer and take out this, you know, top and this pair of shorts and this pair of socks? The miracle that happens when that top, that pair of shorts, and that pair of socks are laying on top of the same bureau and it's the first thing I see. I mean, first of all, you can't get into other clothes when you have an outfit out. You're just like-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- ADAngela Duckworth
... "I'm going to wear this 'cause it's sitting there."
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- ADAngela Duckworth
You know, this kind of micro friction, um, as a, a postdoc who works with me, Asaf Mazor, calls it micro friction. It is incredibly powerful, and once you put on the workout clothes, right-
- BBBrené Brown
Then you're done
- ADAngela Duckworth
... there you go. I mean, nobody doesn't work out [laughs] in their workout clothes. That's my number one exercise hack, is to put my, my workout clothes out the night before.
- AGAdam Grant
I wonder if there's a gender difference here.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Wait, Adam, are you not a workout clothes layer outer?
- AGAdam Grant
N- no. I, [laughs] I don't think about clothes at all.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Do you, do you have a problem? You work out regularly, right? So you don't need this hack.
- BBBrené Brown
You know, yeah, I don't think you need it.
- AGAdam Grant
For me, it takes willpower not to work out.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Okay. Well, then maybe you don't need this, um, th- this, this hack. You know what? I actually really enjoy working out, too. I'm not one of those people for whom, like, working out is a exercise in delay of gratification. Like, when I'm at Pilates, I enjoy Pilates. Um, but even for me, I have found that it helps, and I will say this, Adam. You know, I'm not saying you have to do anything differently, but, um, I've gotten to know Alistair Brownlee, the triathlete, the, you know, world-renowned triathlete. You know, some would argue, like, the greatest triathlete ever, and he lays out his workout clothes [laughs] the night before. He makes sure they're dry. Like, he puts his sneakers, uh, you know, right where he can see them, and so I, I find it interesting that even people who have a lot of willpower and a lot of motivation, um, and, and, and sometimes, you know, people who exercise is the only thing they do, they, they often use this, too. I don't think micro friction benefits anybody when the micro friction is an obstacle to your goals.
- BBBrené Brown
I, I agree, and for me, it's like a- for me, I have to lay them out because if I see them, then I have to acknowledge I am choosing-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- BBBrené Brown
... to not do what I know is good for me. I am making a choice. If I don't see them, it's just like, yeah, I'm really busy. I got a lot of shit to do. But if I see them, I am choosing a lot of shit to do over myself and my health. Um, and that's, it's-
- ADAngela Duckworth
It's not just friction. I think you, I think you're, like, making it obvious, right?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Like, you know, human attention is a pinhole camera. Like, you're thinking about one thing, and you're not thinking about not a million things, but a trillion other things, right? So when you lay eyes on your workout clothes, boom, comes to mind. You're like workout, exercise, health. If you're not looking at your workout clothes, you could be thinking about who knows what, right? Like, you know, does Brad Pitt have veneers? Like, what's for dinner? Like, what am I doing at 10 o'clock today?
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- ADAngela Duckworth
Like, I think he does, by the way, but-
- AGAdam Grant
Never thought about that one before
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, 100, 100%, yes.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Oh, I thought about that. [laughs]
- 30:23 – 34:51
"Put Up Your Own Billboards"
- BBBrené Brown
I love that. I l- put in, put up your own billboards
- ADAngela Duckworth
Put up your own billboards. You know, there's a person that Adam and I both know. But Brené, since you're mostly in Austin and Houston and not in Philadelphia, you probably don't know Chas Howard, who's the chaplain of the University of Pennsylvania, where Adam and I both teach. And he surrounds himself with books, as I think we all do. Um, uh, I am usually surrounded by books, but I'm, I'm here in another room doing this recording. Um, but he goes beyond that. He's very intentional about the spines of the books that are at eye level, and he keeps the books turned so that he can see the title outward that he just wants to be reminded of. I'm not saying that he, like, walks back by that bookshelf and takes every book off the shelf and reads it every day, but he is installing billboards, right? People get tattoos. They, they-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah
- ADAngela Duckworth
... wear their faith around their neck. Why do they do that? They do that to be reminded of their values and their goals. And so that's the kind of intentional choice that I'm talking about, and it's a seemingly trivial one, but I think it's the tip of the iceberg, right? If you can do that, then you can ask yourself, like, who am I spending my time with, you know? You can ask yourself, like, should I be living in Houston or should I be living in Austin or should I live somewhere else, right? I think these are the bigger questions, but you can get there by starting small.
- BBBrené Brown
It's interesting. I was just thinking, I have my two watches on. Um-
- ADAngela Duckworth
And why?
- BBBrené Brown
Just my Apple Watch is just linear, regular time, and my grandmother's watch is Kairos, God time-
- ADAngela Duckworth
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... qualitative time, and a reminder that, um, I need to make choices based on both, both the quantitative time-
- ADAngela Duckworth
I hope that.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. But it's a, it's a billboard. And on my other wrist, I have a tattoo that symbolizes between stimulus and response, there is a, a, a space, in that space is choice. And so I have my billboards at all times.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah. Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Right?
- BBBrené Brown
It's-
- ADAngela Duckworth
And by the way, you don't need to be reminded... It's not like you haven't memorized that sentence-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- ADAngela Duckworth
... right? Between st- It's just that you wanna... You know, and when your eyes alight on it, that's your... It's such a, it's such a brilliant but also so obvious, um, way to control your attention that I don't think people... You know, they... I can't tell you how many people, for example, have reread many times Eckhart Tolle's The Power of Now.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, God, yeah.
- ADAngela Duckworth
And, and, you know, like, well, well, you read it once and you're like, "Okay, I should be mindful," da da. But, like, why are they, you know, rereading it? Why do they have a copy of it? Like, or... Because they're putting it in their situation. They know that if you wanna do anything, including mindful attention to the present, you gotta design your physical s- to make that possible. Same reason why people go on retreats and so forth, right? It's like the way to get into this kind of I wanna control this thought and I wanna go, is actually with the situation, I think. Obviously, I'm-
- BBBrené Brown
God so good
- ADAngela Duckworth
... am I biased? I don't know. Adam's, like, less biased 'cause he didn't write a book about it, you know?
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- ADAngela Duckworth
And, uh, uh... Although you sort of have, I think, in many ways, Adam. But, um, but you can tell me if you disagree.
- AGAdam Grant
I don't disagree. I'm, I'm actually really struck by the tattoo observation here, and I think there's a, there's a, a study waiting to be done. I've always thought about tattoos as an image thing, like you're trying to project something about yourself to other people.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Oh, right. You're projecting it for, the tattoo's for other people.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. But I'm hearing now-
- ADAngela Duckworth
I don't think so
- AGAdam Grant
... there's an identity element of it. And I wonder, here's the study idea. Do people whose tattoos are visible to others but not themselves have more struggles following through on their plans and goals than people who can see their own tattoos, even if they're not visible to others?
- ADAngela Duckworth
Oh, so you're doing, like, a forearm [laughs] versus, like, torso. So like, I don't know, I think Brené, you're the only one among the three of us who has a tattoo. What do, what do you think?
- 34:51 – 39:56
Tattoos, Identity, and Situational Cues
- BBBrené Brown
I, I don't know. I think I've never... Th- One of the things this book really helped me do is for me, situation, context, color, connective tissue is everything. Um, I think situational awareness is, is probably a superpower, unfortunately, because the way I was raised, and it's, I think it's probably the downside of situational awareness is hypervigilance. Um, maybe.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm, I'm, I'm constantly-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Hmm. Oh, that's interesting.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I have a lot of hypervigilance.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Are you hypervigilant?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I can be very hypervigilant.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Wait, what? Oh.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. Like, I, I can-
- ADAngela Duckworth
To threat?
- BBBrené Brown
I can walk-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Are you, like, scanning the horizon for threat?
- BBBrené Brown
Um, no, for under-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Or it's like in other ways?
- BBBrené Brown
For understanding. Who's here? What's the dynamic?
- ADAngela Duckworth
Hmm. Oh.
- BBBrené Brown
What can I, what-
- ADAngela Duckworth
So you think you might have an excess of situational awareness.
- BBBrené Brown
I can. I have to bring it in sometimes.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah. Oh, that's very interesting. Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
But I also-
- ADAngela Duckworth
I think you're the exception
- BBBrené Brown
... it also led me to believe that, like, I was very committed to raising my kids in a Montessori environment. Um-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... because Montessori is very based on situational. Cluttered, you know, cluttered rooms, cluttered minds. And even my-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah, that is a design situation, by the way. Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... that's a design situation. Yeah.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah.
- 39:56 – 43:05
The Paradoxes of Self-Control and Self-Sufficiency
- ADAngela Duckworth
should control ourselves by controlling our situations.
- BBBrené Brown
Angela-
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, the next one.
- BBBrené Brown
Wait, Brene, I'm sorry, I gotta jump in here.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, go ahead.
- BBBrené Brown
Angela Duckworth-
- AGAdam Grant
Please
- BBBrené Brown
... you failed to cite your own research to make your point.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Well, which-
- AGAdam Grant
I mean-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Which study, Adam?
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I know you've done many-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Correct me
- AGAdam Grant
... many, many of them, and it's hard to remember them all. But I'm thinking of your finding that the people who have the most self-control use it the least, because they've arranged their situations to not have to exercise it.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah, I don't want to take credit for a finding that many people, but I do think it was a revolution in self-control research world. Because when I went to graduate school, Brene, I was, like, 32 years old, it was 2002, and the first thing that I read were all these articles about how self-control is a muscle. And it was like, you know, you, you have to, like, exercise the willpower muscle.
- BBBrené Brown
Ooh.
- ADAngela Duckworth
And, like, if you do things like-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh
- ADAngela Duckworth
... hold a hand grip tight for, like, you know, five minutes, which is very hard and painful, then you'll be better at, like, you know, not procrastinating and controlling your temper. And I did a bunch of willpower studies, and they all failed. And what I and many other behavioral scientists have discovered is that willpower is exhausting, willpower is fallible. It's not quite the muscle we think it is, and it is the worst way to change your behavior. So I don't want to take credit for that finding, because over the last 20 years it really has been a sea change in how we think-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- ADAngela Duckworth
... about behavior change. But it is an epiphany that we should be talking about more often.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, so this is interesting and related. So the next paradox that I wrote down, agency can grow sometimes when self-sufficient, our self-sufficiency story gets smaller.
- ADAngela Duckworth
You know, when we think that we are able to do things by ourselves, then we don't ask for help. When we think that it is our job to do things by ourselves, to be independent, hello, I'm raising my hand to that one as well as you, Brene, um, then, you know, we, we don't, um, admit vulnerability. We don't admit, like, I can't. And the courage to say I can't, I can't do this alone, I need help, I don't have the answer, my motivation is an all-time low, I'm a dumpster fire, you know, we think of as shameful, embarrassing, uh, an admission that we're lesser than. But it really has to be the lesson, and I have to credit you more than, than really anyone, Brene, for, you know, spreading this important message. Like, it is strength. To say I can't. It is strength to ask for help. It is strength to say, "I don't know." Uh, and it's been very hard for me, too, to do that as somebody who's always wanted to be independent, and also didn't wanna be a burden on anyone. Um, but, but it is a lesson that I keep trying to, um, repeat and learn better because it's just true. Uh, and however great you can be by yourself, you can be greater when you ask other people for their help.
- AGAdam Grant
Hint, hint.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, last pa- I mean, shut up, Adam.
- ADAngela Duckworth
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Uh, okay, last paradox,
- 43:05 – 47:13
"Perseverance May Require Leaving" When to Quit, When to Grit
- BBBrené Brown
and I think this is interesting. And Adam, you and I have talked about this before. Perseverance may require leaving.
- ADAngela Duckworth
You know, I'm often asked when do I quit and when do I grit, right? Um-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, I love it when it rhymes
- ADAngela Duckworth
... when do I keep going? I don't, I don't take credit for that question, but it does rhyme, and I love things that rhyme. Um, so when to quit, when to grit. And, um, recently some, um, folks over at the NFL, you know, who do player development for the National Football League, um, said, "You know, these young football players, like, they quit too soon. You know? Like, they don't get to start. They know... Then suddenly they want another team, you know. Um, when they're in college, it's like they don't get enough play time. They wanna, like, change universities. Like, like, how do I get them to grit and not to quit?" And so I wanna answer you this way, right?
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Um, I, I do think there are times where you're in a situation where you're suffering and it's hard, and you should stay because that is the nature of the work. That is the nature of the path to where you're trying to go. And there are other times where you should quit. When? When there is a different path, a better path that will get you to where you wanna go, and it is maybe a smoother path or a straighter path. So sometimes it is the right thing to quit. But I don't think you should quit only because, like, this is painful, I don't like it, I wish I were there already. I do think those are wrong decisions. Um, but I don't think it's a terrible question to ask yourself, right? Like, should I keep going or should I go somewhere else? And I don't think the answer is always one or the other. But if you can just keep the guiding principle, which is where am I trying to get to? Like, what are my real goals here? And then to try to look with some objectivity, um, at the options. And the last thing I'll say is most people cannot do this by themselves.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- ADAngela Duckworth
They need to actually have other people who say, "I know you, Brené, and I have some objectivity. I have some psychological distance on this question, and I think you should do this." If you hear a chorus of opinion from people who know you and who care about you and who also know something about these paths, I would listen to that chorus of opinion, you know? It's not always that you should just be like, "Oh, you know, everyone's wrong." That's not grit to, like, never listen, uh, to other people.
- AGAdam Grant
Angela, this is a great resolution of the debate that we started exactly 20 years ago when we met, which was- [laughs]
- ADAngela Duckworth
We've been debating so many things
- AGAdam Grant
... I mean-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Adam, where did it all begin?
- AGAdam Grant
I-
- ADAngela Duckworth
We mostly debate
- AGAdam Grant
... it was the fall of 2006, and we had a, a great debate about where do you draw the line between healthy grit and-
- ADAngela Duckworth
Winning
- AGAdam Grant
... escalation of commitment to a losing course of action, and I think you just resolved it. I think what I just took away from what you just said is we should be slow to abandon our goals, but quick to rethink the path.
- ADAngela Duckworth
We should be hyper-adaptable with the how and hyper-stubborn about the why. You know, there are many ways to get to what you wanna achieve. That's the why, right? Like, what is your purpose? Like, what are you all about? And maybe you do use AI to do it. Maybe you don't. May- maybe you do do it with these people. Maybe you need new collaborators. Like, you have to be, I think especially now, hyper-adaptive, like so-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- ADAngela Duckworth
... quick to walk away from a dead end. Uh, but the destination, you know, the overarching principle of what you're about, like I'm here to communicate, like I'm here to bring out the best in other people, like, you know, it's to be the best chess player. What... You have to, I think, have steadfast dedication to your highest level goal and, you know, infinite ability to walk away from a tactic that's not serving you.
- 47:13 – 50:16
Hope, Pathways, and the Situational Side of Optimism
- AGAdam Grant
I think it's time-
- BBBrené Brown
This is why-
- AGAdam Grant
... for you to walk away.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, the, ed-
- ADAngela Duckworth
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, we're gonna do our round fire.
- AGAdam Grant
Now.
- BBBrené Brown
But this is why-
- AGAdam Grant
Leave
- BBBrené Brown
... this is why I said hopeful, because I think what you're describing reminds me so much of C.R. Snyder's research on pathway as an element of hope.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah. Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
That we think a pathway, pathway is all internal. High levels of hopefulness require just grit and pathway, but that pathway is equally situational, um, which I think is so interesting.
- ADAngela Duckworth
I, I couldn't agree. You mean Snyder of Snyder and Lopez, right? Like the-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Yeah, the, like, really seminal work on happiness. And you know, I will tell you that in my 40s when all I knew how to do was try harder, my early 40s in particular, I was not happy.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- ADAngela Duckworth
And I got, like, less happy with every extra hour of work. [laughs] Um, and, and to really fully embrace the idea of the situation matters and I can change it is something I can't cling to now in my mid to late 50s. I'm working on it. Um, but the more I do, I think the more human I become. You know? Like, when you see somebody and instead of blaming them for being, like, not gritty enough, right, not dedicated enough, and you really take a step back and you try to consider that person and their situation. Do it for yourself. Do it for others. You know, maybe you'll be more successful. You'll definitely be more of a human being.
- BBBrené Brown
Grace. I love Grace.
- ADAngela Duckworth
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Okay.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Exactly.
- BBBrené Brown
Two questions in the lightning round. You get to, you get to bring any, leave any one item in our curiosity shop, no matter how weird it is, how wacky it is.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Ooh.
- BBBrené Brown
What's one item you'd leave on our shelf in the curiosity shop?
- ADAngela Duckworth
In the curiosity shop? Um, let's see. Um, well, if I could leave a painting from my mom-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- ADAngela Duckworth
... I would leave the painting that hangs above my bed that I saw every day growing up, and, uh, she painted when she was 24, and, um, it's a painting of a mountain and the ocean and some sailboats, and, um, one of the little sailboats represents my mom. And when I used to look at that painting, I thought she was just like a little brave sailboat on her own. Um, but then recently I've been noticing that there's a flotilla of sailboats, um, and the sails are full, so she must have had a tailwind. So I think now I look at it and I see my mom, and with increasing, um, with increasing sensitivity I am, I'm appreciating her situation.
- BBBrené Brown
God, that's beautiful. We may have to just leave it there.
- ADAngela Duckworth
It's a very nice thing-
- BBBrené Brown
I think, uh-
- 50:16 – 1:06:04
Reflections: Grit vs. Willpower and Real-Life Situational Wins
- AGAdam Grant
Angela, I'm so glad you didn't quit writing this, this book, which-
- ADAngela Duckworth
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... I know you considered many times. But I think this was the path to helping us all see how we can improve our situations.
- ADAngela Duckworth
Well, thank you. I, I hope others enjoy it.
- BBBrené Brown
I loved that conversation. What about you?
- AGAdam Grant
Me too. I love being a fly on the wall, watching you interview, and watching you-
- BBBrené Brown
What do you mean?
- AGAdam Grant
... create a situation that brings out the best in other people.
- BBBrené Brown
Aw. That's so thoughtful.
- AGAdam Grant
No, it's, it's just so fun to watch, like, the... You just light up, and, like, you light up when, you know, when somebody has a mic drop or when there's something, you know, thought-provoking. But you're also... I, I think one of the things I learned through, you know, being a little bit... I, I got to spend a little more time observing in this one than we usually do, and I, I really love the way you acknowledged what was hard for you about the book, and I think that's, that's something I normally shy away from, and you went right at it.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, it was, it was hard for me because it's... When you step back and think, for me to achieve what I wanna achieve, it requires a letting go that's really scary for me. Um, and not just, you know, being in a room that has my kids' art in it, but asking for help. And, and I have a great coach and I have a great mentor. Um, I, I, I have to say that I thought about you many times when I was reading this book, in a, in a weird way. Um, so she talked about the four, the four elements of situational agency, kind of setting up your space, attracting mentors, choosing your culture, but one of them is picking your peers. And one of the things that our unexpected and new friendship has done for me is, and Steve has pointed this out, and so has Barrett, um, I can talk to you in a shorthand that I can, that I cannot use with very many people at all in the world.
- AGAdam Grant
Same.
- BBBrené Brown
You know, I can say to you on a quick text, like, "Great event, big migraine," and you can say, "What happened?" And I can just say, uh, "Zero house lights all stage," and you're like, "Why do they do that? We can't..." You know, like, you know what that means. You know that they, like, cooked me on a chicken rotisserie with a light that gave me-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... a migraine. And the worst thing is when you're speaking, like you and I speak, maybe if you just get up and do shticks it's different, but you and I try to engage and, and change what we're saying depending on how it lands. So I need the house lights at at least 50% so I can see people's faces. I don't need to be lit up like, you know, the Empire State Building.
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- BBBrené Brown
But you know what that means.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, and, I mean, there, there's so much shorthand there. Yeah. [laughs] I'm also, like, if, [laughs] if you're asking people to engage in a vulnerable conversation, I want sometimes the house lights to go down so that they feel like they can raise their hand and be a little bit anonymous.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
And-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... how do we then choreograph that dynamic so that the lights are up at the right time and down at the right time? And yeah, there are, there are very few people that would know what I'm talking about if I just brought that up out of nowhere.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, and it's like that's a technical thing, but there's also, there's just also real conversations. Like, having you, [laughs] having you in, like, my situation world now-
- AGAdam Grant
Same
- BBBrené Brown
... has really changed the way I think about my work because there's very few people that, you know, while we're opposites in a lot of ways, we do a lot of the same work.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Yeah, and it's-
- BBBrené Brown
Like, we both taught MBA intensives at the same time this year, and I literally texted you and said, "I'm fricking losing it about this. I, I have never been up against this." And you're like, "Oh my God, two years in a row I was up against this. Here's how I thought about it." "Oh, helpful. Okay." And it wasn't like, "Just grit it down, Brené. You can beat this thing." It was like-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... "I don't know what to do. Let me call someone. Let me phone a friend." You know?
- AGAdam Grant
I think it's-
Episode duration: 1:06:05
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