The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantWhy Sports Matter Even When the Game Doesn't with Roger Bennett | The Curiosity Shop
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
70 min read · 13,500 words- 0:00 – 1:04
Welcome to The Curiosity Shop
- BBBrené Brown
Hello, Adam Grant
- AGAdam Grant
Hey, Brené Brown. Welcome back
- BBBrené Brown
I missed you during the hiatus
- AGAdam Grant
I missed you, too. And I know that that's a weird sentence for me to say, but I miss you
- BBBrené Brown
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm receiving it in all of its weirdness. Um, I'm excited to be back from hiatus, and I'm so fricking excited about our guest. I want you to meet my friend Roger Bennett, who is the founder and CEO of the Men in Blazers Media Network, the largest dedicated soccer platform in the United States. He is a soccer maniac, a poet. Um, he is all about big emotion and big feelers, so you'll love that. He's all about collective effervescence and, and Freud and Freuda. We'll talk about all the good things. So I have been really looking forward to the two of y'all meeting, I have to say
- AGAdam Grant
I can't wait. Can we, can we dive in?
- BBBrené Brown
Let's do it. [upbeat music]
- 1:04 – 5:02
Meet Roger Bennett
- BBBrené Brown
Roger, welcome to the Curiosity Shop.
- RBRoger Bennett
Brené Brown.
- BBBrené Brown
Love to start. I, I'm so excited you're here. Please meet my co-host, Adam Grant.
- RBRoger Bennett
It's a joy to meet you, Adam. Brené, one of my favorite people in the world. Definitely top three
- BBBrené Brown
Right back at ya.
- RBRoger Bennett
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Top three? Who are the other two?
- RBRoger Bennett
Um, well, f- uh, probably Tracy Chapman and my wife.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, God. I, I, I mean, [laughs] I've never been-
- AGAdam Grant
All right
- BBBrené Brown
... in such good company. [laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
You, you need to get a fast car, Brené
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I got a fast car, baby.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Love it. R- Roger, it's so great to meet you. I have an important question to kick us off. Have you ever done a podcast with Brené where she wasn't wearing a Liverpool shirt?
- RBRoger Bennett
It's very annoying. I'm not gonna bore your listeners-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
... but I am from, I am from Liverpool, and, uh, like the Mets and the Yankees, she supports the equivalent of the Yankees of where I'm from. They're a winning team. I support essentially a deeply losing team, a deeply traumatic team, uh, which is d- which is very much part of my personality. It really fits beautifully. But every single time she's been on, she's dug out a different piece of Liverpool ephemera, and I occasionally, I've not told her this, but I turn camera off 'cause I just can't mentally handle it. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] I, I-
- AGAdam Grant
Brené-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... are you trolling Roger?
- BBBrené Brown
I, a- as often as possible. You should have seen the really shitty story that I put up. So they did an article. Who did the profile on what you eat?
- RBRoger Bennett
Uh, I, God, I've done so much over the World Cup, I can't remember, but it was a very funny profile. Go on.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, they said, you know, "What does Ro- what does Roger Bennett eat in a day?" And I was like, "He eats Liverpool Football-"
- RBRoger Bennett
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
"... with an SEC Longhorn Chaser. That's what he eat."
- RBRoger Bennett
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And, and I put it up in stories, and I got so many great comments. Like, you trolling the best guy in soccer is, I'm here for all of it.
- RBRoger Bennett
Yeah, I, I, I should've come on, Adam, in my, in my Aggies, uh, outfit.
- 5:02 – 9:31
Hero Players vs. Hero Teams
- BBBrené Brown
top. Okay, we just have questions for you 'cause we want your, your Shakespearean football POV, point of view, um, on these things. Looking back at the World Cup, which has been such a fra... I am so tired, Rog. Like, I haven't slept in a month. First question, Hero Players versus Hero Teams. What i- what is your thinking about, you see two different types of things on the pitch. You see teams that have individual heroes, and you see teams where the team is the hero.
- RBRoger Bennett
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
What's your take on that?
- RBRoger Bennett
Yeah, I mean, I th- I think the, um... It's fascinating within the context of the World Cup, which has just passed. Um, and it is. We're, we're taping this two days, uh, after the end, and it is fascinating, the withdrawal, the sense of absence, the sense of-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- RBRoger Bennett
... uh, just the lack. It's been 39 days. That's a long time. It was an ultramarathon. Uh, I'm very tired. Um, uh, the- the piece you were talking about, the food piece, was in New York Magazine. They asked me to document what I ate for four days during the World Cup. I just reread it over the weekend. It's actually quite dark. Uh, um, without DoorDash I would have never seen food. I was in a basement for much of the World Cup just working, taping, filming, communing. Um, I rarely saw the light of day, but it was magnificent because of that sense of global connection-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- RBRoger Bennett
... which is at the heart of, of the thing. Um, and the power of the tournament, the, the football m- was central and is central, but it's really a global eclipse, the World Cup, where for 39 days... A global eclipse that strikes the whole planet in its entirety for the whole time, and it emanated gloriously from North America, which made it all the more special, all the more meaningful. I'm sure we'll talk about it. But that narrative is, is really beautiful because the game is now marketed in the social media age through individuals. You know, uh, young, uh, TikTokkers view highlights. They don't watch full 90 minutes. They watch a... They, they commune with the game differently. And so the, the star players become giants that walk amongst us. You know, uh, Lionel Messi-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- RBRoger Bennett
... tiny little Ewok of joy. Um, you know, Erling Haaland-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
... the Norwegian Shaquille O'Neal in-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
... uh, in, in like football leagues. If, if Shaquille-
- AGAdam Grant
Wait a minute. I, uh, Roger, I gotta jump in on that. I, I am pretty confident that Haaland can make a free throw on a basketball court.
- RBRoger Bennett
Oh, don't doubt... And that even if he's never played, I'm sure his percentage would pretty quickly be, would be, uh, would be better than Shaq's. But the thing they share is a lethal clinicality-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- RBRoger Bennett
... and a hypercompetitiveness. And then off the field, they both have a deeply goofy persona, which is incredibly endearing and very, very separate. You know, I could... Mbappé, the French, um-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- RBRoger Bennett
... you know, blur of speed. I could go on, and they're reduced to it. But ultimately, Brené, the winner of this team, uh, Spain, of this tournament, Spain, were just the ultimate collective. They're actually the one truly unified. These, these guys have played together since they were kids, many of them. Um, they played with deep cohesion. They, they actually, they- they had a young star, a beautiful star-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- RBRoger Bennett
... 19-year-old, a man called Y- uh, Lamine Yamal, who I'm sure we'll talk about. But not... I- I say man, I really mean a man child. Um, remarkable story. Um, but the, he didn't have a good tournament, and they won as a team. So I think the way we market, the way we experience, look, in our social media age, it's not just the players who are heightened. The fans become characters. The, every fan doesn't just go to the game anymore. They have their thing. You know, the, the Dutch fans march 20, 30,000 of them all clad in orange behind a bus, a techno bus bouncing left and right through Kansas City. Magnificent to, to watch the spectacle. Um, you know, the Norwegian fans row. Social media has changed so much of how we engage with the before, the during, and the after. Um, but ultimately, when it comes down to it, the, the best team, 'cause there's 11 players, it's not like the NBA where one or two great players can just take over. The best team, uh, ultimately won out.
- AGAdam Grant
That is,
- 9:31 – 13:59
Why Soccer Is the Ultimate 'Weakling' Sport
- AGAdam Grant
that is exactly what I wanted to ask you about. Uh, you've, you've probably seen The Economist who talk about basketball being a strong link sport versus soccer being a weak link sport. And-
- RBRoger Bennett
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I, I, I never thought about it this way, but to, to your point, a basketball team can win with one or two superstars, whereas a soccer's team really seems to be dependent on making sure that their worst player is the least bad. And it, it seems like we saw that not only with, with Spain versus Argentina, but also Cape Verde. Like that was a, a whole group, it's, it's a whole team that did not have a weak link. A 40-year-old goalie? Can you, can you help us make sense of this?
- RBRoger Bennett
Yeah, I, I... Look, there's some alchemy to all of it. Um, so Cape Verde, for those of you listeners who don't know, uh, qualified for the World Cup for the first time, a tiny, uh, like archipelago of islands. We all know this now because they participated. Trust me, I did not know any of this before they kicked off, and this is the joy of the World Cup. It changes identity, it changes geographic understanding, changes balance of power. Um, 10 islands, I think eight of them are populated. They'd never qualified before. The players are, um, partly a, a gathering of diasporas, um, partly, um, you know, low level, the equivalent of, I think, Double-A, Triple-A baseball, and they played Spain. Spoiler alert, Spain, um, end up winning the World Cup. But in that first game, um, there'd never been a bigger gap between two teams in a World Cup. I think it was second in the world playing 67th in the world. Um, and Cape Verde, no hopers, duffers. We expected it to be an absolute one-sided avalanche, and they held Spain, uh, to a goalless draw. It sounds terrible. It sounds like every American's worst nightmare of football, but it was ecstatic because Spain absolutely smothered and covered, um, Cape Verde. But in goal, they had a journeyman goalkeeper, a 40-year-old who'd only become professional when he was 25. I mean, this is like some kind of Hallmark movie, um, of a, of a gentleman, and he had the game of his life. Um, he had seven or eight saves. Um, it was remarkable to watch the spectacle. Um, and right at the death, he pulled off one of the best saves of the tournament. Um, this man, Vizzinha, this is the incredible part of the story, Adam. Um, he began the game with less than 50,000 Instagram followers.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah.
- RBRoger Bennett
By the end of the game, he had more Instagram followers than Patrick Mahomes, more than Wemby. Just through the arc of the 90 minutes. He c- he called and asked if he could come on the show, our show, the day of that game. Uh, told his story with humility. Uh, looked into the camera and said, "By the way, this wasn't a one-off. I'm not celebrating. This is our moment. We've struggled to get here. Um, our goal is to, i- is to play without fear every single game." They ended up having a darling run into the knockout rounds. Vizzinha came back on my show on game day. I was at Fanatics Fest. Um, we had a live show, uh, before the game. He now has 30 million Instagram followers. Um, he's now a, a... I, I was with David Beckham on the morning of, o- o- of the World Cup final. David Beckham was elated that he'd met Vizzinha. He said, "Oh, I just met Vizzinha last night." Um, this is an amazing story, and really a testament, I think, to the power of the World Cup that this gentleman, a unknown, um, you know, a journeyman, a footnote in the world of football, is now, um, I mean, is now one of the most profound almost... A- and why are these elite footballers excited to be... He's got a quasi-religious, like, a quasi kind of sainthood, uh, kind of aura to him, um, that's deeply, deeply inspirational to, I think, everyone who meets him. If this man can do it, if this man can be plucked out of obscurity, if this man is almost like the last star fighter of World Cup football, you do think about yourself in your own life. Not s- not, you know, taking the World Cup field, but you do stand a little straighter. You do believe in your dreams a little bit more, and I think that's really the power of what we've shared together. It's not the football. It is the football, but it's about what kind of... And you understand this better than I do, uh, Brené and Adam. It's what it, uh, inculcates into your own life-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- RBRoger Bennett
... what you take and what, what transcends the game that I think is its true beauty.
- 13:59 – 20:47
Running Men in Blazers During the World Cup
- BBBrené Brown
I have to pause us from our regularly scheduled questions 'cause I have to ask you something. A lot of CEOs, founders, and leaders listen to our podcast 'cause that's very much the work that Adam and I do out in the world. You're the founder and CEO of the Men in Blazers Media Network, single b- uh, single busi- b- biggest dedicated soccer platform in the US. What has this World Cup meant for your business, and how does that align with your expectations? Uh, how did, what did you-- Like, you are-- When I watch people, they're so excited to be sitting across from you. It's not like you haven't had huge stars before this, but, like, you're the hot ticket, and so I just need to pause from football for a minute and talk to you as a leader and a founder about this experience.
- RBRoger Bennett
L- Um, the little bit of Englishness that's left in me, I'm very American now. I love America more than Matthew McConaughey loves America. Um, the little bit of Englishness-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
... I, you know, is, is a, a, I won't have you saying nice things about me in public, um, 'cause it's deeply uncomfortable. Um, I like to focus on the negatives. I like to focus on the things that didn't work. I like to focus... Look, we've had a very, very, very, very good World Cup. We, uh, we had a bus, um, a Home Depot orange bus like John Madden that we drove from coast to coast-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
... stopping in 10 cities, reveling in the moment. Look, the ethos of, of what I do, football's amazing. Um, but I like what it allows you to do, to make memories that you will treasure forever, cross-generational memories, collective memories, which I think are often the most powerful in the, um, you know, in good and bad ways, in loss and in, in victory.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- RBRoger Bennett
You feel alive when you watch football. I'm pretty dead inside, but when I watch football, I feel emotions, victory, um, agony, um, you know, triumph, failure, um, that people feel in real life, but I'm dead to inside. And the joy of it is none of it matters, so you walk away from it just as, you know, with the same number of limbs as you enter. And the ethos of our show is, let's not take a second of watching football together for granted. Let's make great memories. I believe it deeply. I find it very moving when I see mothers and, uh, you know, daughters-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- RBRoger Bennett
... or, or fathers and sons or a- a- at any of our show. I, I always say to them, when they're going to the game, "You will not forget what you're about to experience for the rest of your life. You will remember these moments." That's the ethos of, of what we're trying to preach here. Um, so we went across the nation. We did these college game day style match day lives with huge audiences. In Seattle, we had 5,000 people come and watch us with John Green, one of the most nourishing human beings in the world-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh
- RBRoger Bennett
... and, and, and Marsh- and Marshawn Lynch.
- SPSpeaker
Love John Green.
- RBRoger Bennett
Marshawn Lynch, one of the most fascinating, creative-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- RBRoger Bennett
... uh, personalities that we've e- And we did a, you know, pregame live shows and talked about really trying to preach that sense, and we did 120 shows in over 39 days from the back of the bus, which we converted into a broadcast studio. And what I can tell you is we did enormous numbers. I mean, enormous numbers. NFL numbers. Um, the, the stuff found an enormous audience here. We're blessed to have people like you on, Brené, Jon Stewart, John Oliver, J.J. Watt, um, you know, Ludacris, um, all, all my favorites talking about this sense of moment. Um, and so The thing, this has been an incredible moment. One I've, I've dreamt of as someone that loves America and loves football and has lived the rise of football in America. When I came over here in 1994, the, uh, right before the World Cup, they revealed soccer was America's 67th most favorite sport. Tractor pulling was 66.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
Um, I don't know where tractor pulling is now-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
... but, um, soccer was just found out to be the third-biggest sport. So we've surfed this wave. We cover men's football. I have a whole platform purely for women's football, which is so meaningful.
- AGAdam Grant
Let's go.
- RBRoger Bennett
We have a platform for h- young Hispanic second and third generation fans. And to pull this together and make meaning, that's really the joy of the thing, um, for me. Um, but again, I look a- as someone, uh, fe- I... When I'm, I'm broadcasting, I'm trying to make meaning. Uh, I think you understand that. You've given me some of my most beautiful terms. Uh, we had Ryan Reynolds on for the final, and he still talks about collective effervescence when he came on and talked about Durkheim. You give us these tools, these gifts to name the feelings. That's really what I'm trying to do. Name the feelings, share the feelings, uh, share the experiences. Um, but as a, as a CEO, I'm, I'm just focused on what we've not done right. Make sure we're learning from, from all of it, that we keep growing. Um, because this has been the journey, uh, of a life. And this World Cup, we always joke. I'll, I'll say this and then I'm gonna let you get back to, uh, normally sc- uh, n- normally scripted, uh, broadcasting. Um, we always joke soccer is America's sport of the future, as it has been since 1972. It's always the next big thing. But this World Cup has been so massive. The audience, we've got, we've got such a m- enormous incoming new audience. Um, and so it's very much the sport of the present. This is what we've dreamt of. We're now living it, and now we just have to build the future together. [upbeat music]
- AGAdam Grant
Support for the show comes from Mint Mobile. Transparency can be helpful in lots of areas of life. Take iced coffee, for example. That clear cup lets you know how long you've got before your coffee gets watered down. Mint Mobile likes transparency, too, which is why they offer you a clear phone plan, no hidden strings attached. That means there's no gimmicks. They just offer high-speed 5G and great coverage starting at $15 per month for new customers for their initial term, and that includes their unlimited plans. You can sign up online, and you can keep your same device and number. To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com/shop. That's mintmobile.com/shop. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com/shop. That's it. There's no catch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month, $90 for six month, or $180 for 12 month. Plan required, $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20 gigabyte hotspot, a capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com. Okay, I'm
- 20:47 – 25:39
Why We Care So Deeply About Sports
- AGAdam Grant
so curious. You, you just said something that I, I, I could ask 19 questions about this, but I'm gonna try one. So Roger, as you know, Brené and I both love paradoxes, and I think you just surfaced a paradox that I've been having a hard time wrapping my mind around. Which is, on the one hand, you said, like, it doesn't matter. Like, the World Cup does not matter. And on the other hand, we care deeply about it. Like, Brené is losing sleep over it. Um, you know, I'm, like, I feel, I, I don't, I don't emote nearly as often as, as many people do, and like, I'm at the edge of my seat waiting to see what's gonna happen to, like, the, to England and France in a consolation game. And-
- RBRoger Bennett
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I'm just, I'm wondering if you can help us understand, like, what, what is this duality of caring about something that we don't really need to care about? I guess in some ways it's similar to, like to watching a movie or a TV show where you're rooting for these characters that don't exist.
- RBRoger Bennett
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, but what is that?
- RBRoger Bennett
It's a feeling.
- AGAdam Grant
Why, why do we do this?
- RBRoger Bennett
You, you know exactly why and more articulately than I do. We need this. Like, we need this. None of it matters, but it's the feelings that matter. Uh, uh, there's an incredible storm right over my head that you may be hearing in the background that makes everything I've just said seem like it's from a Bela Lugosi movie. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
No, it's so dramatic. I love it. It's, you are so on brand right now.
- RBRoger Bennett
I know. I just said, "The feelings that matter"-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- RBRoger Bennett
... and there's a huge crackle of thunder-
- AGAdam Grant
Great
- RBRoger Bennett
... right overhead. It is the feelings that matter. Like, it's what we bring to it, um, ultimately. Um, I'll give you an example. Um, the, the team I support, a cursed team, a dark team, Everton Football Club. I support them because my father supported them and his dad supported them. Um, they used to play in a little ramshackle stadium. Um, my dad would... They lost a lot. My dad didn't call it losing, he called it not winning. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
He was very insistent on that. And he said if we... You know, I interviewed him once, one of my favorite interviews because he's, he's now, well, he passed away July 4th, 2024. Um, the, he, he said if we were Liverpool fans like Brené, he said we'd be completely different people. We'd take everything. You know, winning would be so common, we'd never appreciate it. And he really believed that all the losing, the occasional fleeting moments of happiness, he said we'd learn to really seize them in life and dance as if you're at your own kid's wedding. Um, and the home stadium- Um, they, they, they just closed it down last year. They built a state-of-the-art, the equivalent of, like, northwestern England SoFi. And I made a film about the last game, um, that I went to, um, at the old stadium. Um, and it was beautiful. It, it... I went with a friend of mine whose dad also was a massive Blue, whose dad was also passed away. People were sobbing all over the stadium. There was a stranger by me, uh, who cried the moment the teams went onto the field. Another stranger by her, 'cause everyone was there on their own, they couldn't get a ticket, put his arm around her. He goes, "Don't cry, girl. We've not even lost yet."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
Um, but she was sobbing-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
... 'cause she was thinking about, uh, ultimately, sh- we were all thinking about the people who were not there with us, the memories we'd had-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm
- RBRoger Bennett
... the life-shaping experience, but most of all, those who were not there to see it, those we wish we were there. Um, what you bring to sports, um, i- it's the safest outpouring of your core essence of who you are, your greatest fears, your greatest losses, your greatest dreams, your greatest memories. The World Cup, I do think, to be honest, even more so than just casual, every day, because it is every four years.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- RBRoger Bennett
That rarity, that scarce, that kind of, that long-waited baseline through your life, it becomes the spine of your life. Um, and so each one, because it is such a rare thing, you know, my first memory was eight, uh, um, you know, watching Argentina, 1978, just in ecstasy. I didn't know football could be joyful. It w- played in the sun. It was played in England in muddy pitches by bald men who just wanted to have a cigarette at halftime and let the fans fight each other. It was miserable. I was like, "Dad, I didn't know football could be so joyful." Um, onwards, you know, every four years, and it is. It's like watching a flower bloom in fast motion. But, I mean, I'd love you to tell me, this is, like, you... It's like m- uh, me asking you about football, uh, details. You two are the experts. Why is it, uh, that that paradox exists, do you think? Because that cognitive dissonance is its true beauty.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, Brené, I'm gonna, I'm gonna defer this one to you. I loved Roger's phrase, "The safest expression of your core essence," and I never thought about how sports are an occasion to experience the emotion without the vulnerability and risk, and that is your jam. Over to you.
- 25:39 – 31:48
Sports, Family & Collective Effervescence
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, no, I, I... Uh, yeah, it's, it's almost so emotional, I almost can't even talk about it without crying. It's like, it's terrible. You cannot put Roger and I [laughs] together for, for, we can't put the two of us together for very long. Um, I think, you know, when I was just on your podcast, Roger, we talked about, you know, I was, we were just jokingly doing a comparison between SEC football, 'cause we're 46 days away from that now, but, and how, how that compared to the World Cup for me. And I said I, I have to give it a tie. Why? Because, of course, the World Cup is a World Cup. It's internationalism at its best. It's all of us. It's huge. It's every four years. But I can smell SEC football. It's my dad making chili. It's, um, it's the fact that I will be with my kids when UT football starts, and we will walk. It'll, you know, it's supposed to be cool 'cause it's in the movies, football's in the cold weather, but here it'll be 100 degrees, and we'll walk to DKR Stadium, and we'll piss and moan the entire way. And then the Eyes of Texas will come on, and we'll hold each other's hands, um, and we'll bond through that.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, and, and it's family. It's to... It, it is, just like it's a safe place to express emotion, it's also a gathering magnet where we don't make time in our lives to be with people, you know? And there's a million pieces of research on collective effervescence about coming together, shared artifacts, singing together. It is everything technology and capitalism and these bigger systems have built that tear us away from each other. There are moments that bring us together. And if you took music and chants out of soccer, it wouldn't, y- you wouldn't have it. It wouldn't mean anything.
- AGAdam Grant
Cue the Viking row.
- RBRoger Bennett
We, we, which by the way, was so profound for the Norwegians. It looked like a, you know, a shticky gimmick. I'll be honest, I was pretty tired of it after about, um, the 12th time I saw them row in some strange place in New York. I was like, "All right, guys, lads, we got this one." Um, but the more... You know, I've interviewed us, um, the Icelandic team before they became really, really good. I was there the summer before they exploded onto the international scene.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- RBRoger Bennett
And in my interviews, they were all like... I was like, "Well, how have you... You're a tiny nation, couple of hundred pe- of thousand people. How have you become, like, European slayers?" And they'd all look into the microphone with slightly fearsome humor. They would be like, "I am Viking. There's Viking blood. Viking."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
And I, uh, the first time I heard that, I was like, "Okay, this, this..." I was like, "This one's a bit off. This one's a bit..." I was like, "I'd nod." I'd be like, "Cool." Next one, "Viking. I am Viking." I'd be like, "Cool." And they really do feel it, and, uh, um, what's been fascinating... Well, two things. Number one is, um, the pride when the Norwegians went home w- with, with, with a, a, a, a vaunted defeat. Um, you know, they made their noise. They'd had their ecstasy. Uh, it was beautiful to watch. And, you know, I think a million, uh, of them got together and did this enormous, enormous row with the, uh, with everyone there. It was like something out the Middle Ages, actually. It was very, finally, very haunting. And then the second thing, we were in Dallas, um, and we did a show at Jerry Jones' house, and he talked about- Um, he talked honestly about how he, you know, how he thought, um, the, the, the Cowboys fans were just unbelievable. But then he heard the Argentinian fans in his own stadium and he's like, "Oh wow, that's a different level of ecstasy. That's a different level of divinity. That's a different level of, of, of almost religious experience." And I've been with the Argentinian fans. I, I... We talked about this, Brené, when you came on. Again, not a spiritual man, very dead inside, but when I watch them, these, uh, you know, 40,000, 50,000, 60,000 of them in Atlanta, the, the woman I was with who'd never been to a game before, they start- They, they, they were losing. They needed divine magic. They got divine magic. And the fans were so, you know, with shirts off. It was... They do this thing with their hands.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- RBRoger Bennett
You know, thousands of them do this. They're all singing, screaming, weeping. Many of them were weeping. She started crying too and I said, you know, "Why are you crying?" Um, she said, "It's like the greatest evangelical church, um, I've ever been to." And Jerry Jones and the Cowboys are like, 'We need to get to that.' Like, that's levels. And I do wonder, to pull this together, Adam, the Viking roar, like there will be an SEC team, uh, come college football who will do the Viking roar. Like the thing-
- BBBrené Brown
For sure
- RBRoger Bennett
... that started in the football from the Norwegian, from the Viking, from that mindset, it will carry through. And so America will have this impact on global football in ways that I, I can talk about if it's interesting. But also global football will leave its mark on, on American, um, sporting culture, behaviors, rituals and I think that's like one of the fascinating legacies of all of this. But that, it, it is, you know, the, the overlap between ch- uh, between collective, uh, religious experience and at-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah
- RBRoger Bennett
... its best, the divinity, the ecstasy of, of sporting, uh, euphoria is very, very interesting.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, I'll never forget, uh, I think I wrote about it maybe 10 years ago, a tweet that I saw from Chris, Chris Anderson of TED that just showed 95,000 fans, Liverpool fans singing You'll Never Walk Alone in the Melbourne stadium and his, his... All it said underneath it was, "When sport becomes religion." You know? Okay, I have to ask these questions. There's so many of them. Um, I'm gonna ask this question. I wanted to stay away from it, but I'm gonna ask it anyway 'cause I need to know the answer to it.
- 31:48 – 37:44
Football's Intersection with Politics and History
- BBBrené Brown
There were some very difficult moments, I believe, in the World Cup fueled by geopolitical realities. Tell me what your take is on the intersection between what we see on the pitch, the truth that's told, you know, the green never lies. The truth that's told on the pitch and history and politics. What do you make of it?
- RBRoger Bennett
That's why I love it. I mean, that's the greatest part of it, isn't it? That, um, football and particularly the World Cup holds... I mean, I wrote a book about it, uh, before the World Cup, uh, We Are The World Cup, but it holds up a mirror. It's a perfect mirror to who we are. It's a reflection of who we are. Um, look, I believe this deeply and the World Cup is the, is the perfect, uh, expression of this, that when two teams take the field, and I think this is why it caught on in America in the way it did, um, I'm a huge American sports fan. Um, but you know, when, when the 49ers play the, the LA Ra- it's a great game of football and it's a great matchup and there is history within the game, but there's the, the political reality. The co- When two teams take the field in World Cup play, their teams' histories, their teams' cultures, their teams' politics, um, take the field alongside them and it's that depth, you know, that multitude, um, you know, and um, that gives it its human beauty. Um, and I've always loved that. I've always loved that about the sp- I've always thought it was beautiful to be honest. Um, the, you know, Walt Whitman, it contains mu- um, multitudes.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- RBRoger Bennett
Football, World Cup football contains multitudes and the reality is as the world gets darker, you know, South Africa 2010 I think was the, for me, just a beauty. I couldn't believe it was... The, the... I, I watched the first game. This continent that had never hosted a World Cup before. You know, Mandela, late, late, late Mandela, his kinda shadow cast upon this welcoming of the world. Lots of doubt going into that. Could, you know, the violence, we were told the crime. The electricity grid couldn't, uh, you know, uh, couldn't, wasn't functional for the world to... It was a beautiful... That first game and football felt like the fusion of the geopolitics, a fusion of the joy of a continent. The football was almost irrelevant. Um, but the darker the world's gotten, um, the reflection is still there and it still shines and as you still hold up, um, and see ourselves. The reality is we might not like what we see, um, but I think football gives you that and that's the depths that I, I adore. I, I, I, I, I... They, We saw that in the beginning of the tournament, the Somali referee. It feels like it was years ago. It really does. This tournament's been so long. Uh, Omar Altman, um, denied entry. Just barred. N- no fight, no anything. It was just like blocked. Done. Okay, move on. Uh, that was, that was, that wa- that's who we are. That's who we are. The, the, the treatment of the Iranian team, um, w- I think was a... By the way, the tournament was ecstatic and there's so much, I won't be clear. The tournament was a human-
- BBBrené Brown
For sure
- RBRoger Bennett
... ecstasy and I w- I do, I, um, I, I can talk about that very... I've talked about that a lot in a lot of places. But I, uh, but two things are true. The way Iran were treated were- Unprecedented. Um, the host nation was, uh, was, was at war with one of the qualifiers, Iran, who were meant to play games in Los Angeles and Seattle. Um, they had to move their training camp last minute after geopolitical brinksmanship about whether they'd be allowed to participate or not. Um, they had to move from, uh, from the United States to, to... They ultimately, uh, trained in c- in Can- in Mexico and were-
- BBBrené Brown
Mexico.
- RBRoger Bennett
By the way, the Mexicans, the, the welcome, that, that, that was a-
- BBBrené Brown
Wow
- RBRoger Bennett
... that was an... Even in darkness, there's light, and that part of the story is beautiful. But Iran were... You know, they played in LA. That was very complicated because it's the Islamic Republic of Iran, and LA is the greatest, uh, density of, uh, of Iranian emigres in, in, in, in the United States, and they're a symbol, the, you know, of the, of the state, the Islamic state. But the players are also heroes. So, um, we were there, and it was remarkable. Um, you know, there was a lot of demonstrations around the first game. Um, but once the game kicked off, many of the demonstrators were actually rooting for the players. It was emotionally deeply complex, uh, and fascinating to watch. Um, but then they were, you know, told very quickly by, um, American officials they had to leave almost immediately after kickoff and kind of, uh, sent right back to Mexico. Again, um, a mirror to who we are. And then the United States team, um, it becoming a geopolitical, um, debate where a player was red carded, uh, sent off, the best player, striker. He just came on our show. Um, and ultimately, the White House became involved to, um, compel his, uh, red card to be suspended. That was unprecedented, and there's levels to that. I don't know if you want to talk about it, but it's a blight on, on the tournament, um, a bruise for our nation. Uh, it's tough for this team. It's how it will be remembered now instead of the beautiful, delirious-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- RBRoger Bennett
... uh, play that they unfurled in the early games. The darkness is all there, and thinking it through, um, I mean, football allows you to often see things clearer than, um, than, than just in the light of
- 37:44 – 44:35
Identity, Belonging, and the Rise of Lamine Yamal
- RBRoger Bennett
day.
- BBBrené Brown
I so much appreciated the conversations and the curiosity about history and the desire to understand more that I saw in my 21-year-old and my 27-year-old and my n- my friends and neighbors. And I think what it brought up for me, too, in addition to the stories that we talk- we're talking about right now, that you and I talked about on your podcast, is the cover of Time Africa right now. What does it mean to belong? And the fact that without birthright citizens, we would have no team in the US. You know, without... You know, you look at... Y- I mean, right? I mean, yes or no? I mean, it's just... And what does it mean to belong to a country and to a team? And there's so much power. I mean, that's... I look at Spain, and I think... I mean, there's just poetic and powerful insight around the gift of setting a long table.
- RBRoger Bennett
Yeah. But, uh, again, Spain is fascinating. Uh, they have this young star, Lamine Yamal. This kid is 19 years of age. He is spectacular. Uh, I'm sure some of your listeners are, are aware of Lionel Messi. He's 39, still doing casual miracles. I mean, divinity. Godhead. Uh, I'm being not hyperbolic. I'm almost under-
- BBBrené Brown
No, I, I... No, I agree
- RBRoger Bennett
... I'm almost underselling him. Um, he's old. His moment, his last dance will come. You do not get to choose in life or in football when you have your end. That's one of the other things that I think is fascinating about watching football humanly. Uh, you know, the, the Cristiano Ronaldo, uh, age 41, um, uh, was... It's shown us you cannot choose your end. You don't ha- You're not able to say, "You know what? I'll have the hero's farewell. I'll have the Viking funeral, please." No. Football and life do not give you that choice. Uh, he will be replaced, and the, probably the greatest contender, this 19-year-old kid, Lamine Yamal. Um, I mean, he, he grew up in deep poverty, um, um, in, in Spain, um, with, with, with, you know, a Moroccan, um, um, side of the family. He's had to... And this is... There, there's no joy. We, we frame these stories joyfully. This kid has won everything already, and by the way, not just as a bit part on the team. He's a leader of every team he's on. It's like genuinely, I think of Joan the Arc- Joan of Arc, who I think about a lot.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
Like, how did, how did she become a leader at such a young age? What did she exude? What aura must she have had? Uh, Lamine Yamal, he broke through at 15, was leading the teams he was on, was fearless. They won things. They won a lot of things. Winning the World Cup, and he didn't have a great World Cup. He was coming back from injury. Um, but I do... When he won the World Cup, watching him, he's f- he's the face of this team, and I thought of the, um, uh, what I thought was Alexander the Great's quote, but since I, I said it, I found out it was actually Alexander the Great's quote as, uh, as bastardized by the Die Hard movies, that he, he cried because he had no more worlds left to conquer. This kid, 19, has won everything. 19. Bloody hell. Um, but my point is on this one, like, it's a, it's gorgeous. His brother, three-year-old Kaine-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yum
- RBRoger Bennett
... uh, Yamal, is, like, the cutest, um, I mean, just a human meme in dumpling form. He's exquisite. Um-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
... you know, everything feels good. But, um, you know, a month ago he had... He was still protesting Islamophobia in Spain. Um-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- RBRoger Bennett
... he was still being very clear to the Spanish fan base, uh, "If I am your hero..." When he scored his first goal, he, um, he immediately l- uh, prayed-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- RBRoger Bennett
... um, to remi- as if to say to them- Yes, I'm your hero. This is who I am. Love all of me. Love all of me, not just the commercials face of me, but this is who I am, and I remember what you were doing to, you know, in, in terms of, uh, of your chants and y- y- your, um, and your racism, and, and, and this is who I am in this moment. I'm gonna remind you. I'm gonna stick this down your throat. Look, the complexity of life, um, it's f- it's everywhere. This is not just us in America with the Balogun thing, the, the, the red card that was rescinded, that was very difficult, and the thing that was crazy about that for me was it was objectively ridiculous. It's never happened before that something happens in football, and the government, of any government... Like, think about if, if a- if Saudi Arabia did that. I mean, we would just be like, "Oh, my Lord." If France just were like, "We didn't like what you did with Mbappe," now the French government are gonna go... We would think it was ludicrous. Um, it happened. It happened here. Um, and w- we did a lot of media in the wake. What was fascinating was so many people were rationalizing it because it was for us. Um, and that was fairly fasci- it- it's objectively rid- I wanna say it's not just wrong, it's ridiculous. Um, but because it happened to us, emotionally, the every show I did, and I don't just mean, uh, like I was going on Alex Jones' podcast or something [laughs] . I h- I mean, like, you go on, you go on always, like MSNBC or some- and there'd always be one dude who'd be like, "Well, Roger, I've gotta say, I mean, it wasn't a red card. This is only fair, don't you think?" Um, when it happens to you, um, emotionally you're able to repress. Um, you don't always see the, the, the geopolitical. You don't always see the, the true reflection. Um, and that's also fascinating to me.
- BBBrené Brown
Adam, I liked your post.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, Roger.
- BBBrené Brown
I liked your po-
- RBRoger Bennett
What?
- BBBrené Brown
You have to talk to, you have to tell Roger your post, that I thought what you posted in response to the red card flip was so good.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, thank you. I, and it actually came 'cause I was, I was watching the game with our 12-year-old son, and I, I said, "Look, let's just set aside whether the red card call was fair or not," right? In sports, we accept bad calls. That's part of the game. And, like, now we're seeing all these American fans saying like, "We have to, we have to do whatever it takes to overturn it." And I said, "Those aren't true fans, because a true fan loves the sport more than the team, and that means if you're a real fan, you would rather watch your team lose fairly than win unfairly."
- RBRoger Bennett
That's the most beautiful part of this show. We just-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
... we just, we just smashed it. Uh, p- it's beautiful and true and, and wonderful, and a deeply minority opinion.
- BBBrené Brown
Now, and w- well, you're, you're, you're with us.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, not, only in America.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Not in the rest of the world. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Adam, ask your, ask your final question, then I'm gonna get to the rapid fire.
- 44:35 – 52:03
How the World Cup Changed America and Global Football
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I think, you know, I th- I think that the... We've, we've actually covered several of the questions we, we already th- had planned, but I think the, the question I wanna ask, which, which Brené really dreamed up, is... Like, I, uh, let me, let me just try to do it succinctly. I think so many people, as, as you previewed earlier, were hopeful that bringing the World Cup to North America would be what finally lights the match, um, and, and creates this incredible passion for, for soccer or football. And i- as part of that, there was a real hope for, for a transfer of learning, that America would take something from the world, and the world would take something from America. What do you think have been the biggest lessons in both directions?
- RBRoger Bennett
Um, I mean, it, the, I think it's the most important question right now. World Cup's a circus. The circus has just packed up and left town, and it is a, um, I mean, it's an agony. Um, it was very exhausting. I will say last night was my first night back home, uh, in about 50 days, and I st- even though I was so happy to be home, so happy to be with my family, so happy to be with my dog, um, I did, I, I got an itch. I missed, like, the 11:00 at night recording where we debriefed on everything. I missed the, the sense of connectivity with my co-hosts and with our audience, refracting their opinions, their feelings, their memories. Um, and so I think it's twofold. Um, look, we've talked about the darkness, and there was that, um, and it's important to hold that, um, and not airbrush it out at all. But by and large, um, it was a World Cup of love. The football was, uh, quite ecstatic, both for reasons of competitive fire, but also I do believe this commercially. A lot of these individual footballers saw America, saw the marketplace, and wanted to conquer it, wanted to be the face of the World Cup, like Pelé was in the 1970s.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah.
- RBRoger Bennett
They came, and they tried to bring it. The, you know, there was goals from Messi, Mbappe. However, it was like the big dogs, they're all barking. To me, the big dogs were all like, "Hmm, I'd like some of that Nike money. I'd like some of that Anheuser-Busch money. I'd like to..." And God bless, the world was better because of it, so ecstatic on the field, but it was the off the field, uh, that I think is, is the, i- is the thing that, um, twofold. Global football fell in love with America. Um, as someone that loves America, that loves traveling around America, it's the honor of my life to, to wander around tasting every, uh, Juicy Lucy, every form of barbecue, every extra, extra, extra hot wing, you know, every lemon pepper wet. Um, to see 'em, the World Cup... I love America, and the thing they w- they were not blown away by the skyline. They were not blown away by, um, you know, our, let's say our museums. I don't think it had a great summer. I doubt, not, not that many people were, like, blown away by, uh- By, by the art institute, um, of, of whatever city. They were blown away by the Waffle House, smothered and covered. I was in Atlanta by a Waffle House. I can tell you-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
... the line to get in, you would think The Beatles-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
... had reformed. Um, they were blown away by Buc-ee's, by, by, by, by, by nuggets, beef nugget. They're just s- seeing these Buc-ee's was the European mind cannot comprehend-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
... in, in real life form. And they fell in love with, I think the thing that attracted me to America, the sense of warmth and joy and hope. Um, when you become American, like I did in 2018, you'll be in a room, and I encourage any of your listeners to go to a swearing-in of new citizens 'cause it... you can, anyone can attend, and I think it's the most energizing way to reconnect to what's really important in this nation. Um, like I, I wrote a book about why I moved here. It's, it's not impressive. It's Tr- you know, Tracy Chapman, the music of Public Enemy, um, John Hughes movies. Growing up in Liverpool in a very dark time for, for that city, America felt like a place of warmth and joy. Um, but you'll meet people who crawl across deserts to get here. You'll meet people who flee civil wars, harrowing civil wars to get here, and it reconnects you to a sense of positivity and joy and hope. And I think the world did, and the world was faintly surprised that it did-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah
- RBRoger Bennett
... with the incoming narrative. The world felt a love for America. Brené, we talked about it when you came on. We needed this. The... You love yourself often through confidence, but sometimes that love needs to be rekindled by seeing others see the love in you, and then you s- again, that feels truly, truly energizing to the, the... Number one, I include the, the, the world fell back in love or reconnected to the part of America, 'cause I don't wanna pretend-
- BBBrené Brown
Right
- RBRoger Bennett
... it's all this. The, the, um, the, the, the... is that hope that I feel, felt in that citizenship, um, swearing in. And then the other thing, um, i- is that America fell in love with global football for all of its joy, the rituals, the pageantry, the ecstasy, the co- the complexity of it, the nuance, um, the noise, the smell, the memory-making. I, I believe this deeply. Um, you don't watch football. Um, you feel it.
- BBBrené Brown
No, God, it's awesome.
- RBRoger Bennett
You feel it and it moves you. It moves you. Different things, different moments move you, uh, in that way, and the joy of the World Cup is that you're being moved at a scale unknown to humankind. 5 billion pe- 200 million watch the Super Bowl. 500- 5 billion watch it, and you're just connecting to... That's the good stuff. You're connecting. There's an interplanetary moment of memory-making that you are, that you're tapping into, and I think between those two things, the... It all came together in Lawrence, Kansas for me, where that town, you know, the- fell in love-
- BBBrené Brown
Seriously
- RBRoger Bennett
... with the Algerian team, um, which was beautiful. All of this love happened between the Algerian fans and the Lawrence, Kansas. You know, rock chalk, Algeria. When Algeria qualified for the knockout rounds were beauti- I found it very moving. I found it very moving. The Algerian bus came back 2:00, 3:00 in the morning. The Algerian fans did what they did, which is just let off rockets, fireworks, crazy drumming, crazy noise. But if you looked at the footage, there were Algerian fans. There were also citizens of Lawrence, Kansas [laughs] up at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning doing the same. And you know in that moment, Adam, that, man, this, those, that, those people will tell their kids' kids-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yes
- RBRoger Bennett
... of the summer that the Algerian-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yes
- RBRoger Bennett
... team came and their minds were cha- their minds-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- RBRoger Bennett
... were buckled forever, and that's the true beauty of this.
- BBBrené Brown
I still tell those stories from when I was, like, you know, in elementary school, and we watched, you know, Archie Manning's quarterback for the Saints in Tulane Stadium before there w- you know? I mean, it's, it's... These are the stories that make up the fabric of my family, of my life. It's fall. It's football. It's hunting season. It's also back to school. It's football.
- RBRoger Bennett
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And it, you know, it's, you know, so, you know... I just love it. Okay,
- 52:03 – 1:05:30
Rapid Fire Questions
- BBBrené Brown
are you ready for the rapid fire?
- RBRoger Bennett
I, I'll try.
- BBBrené Brown
I think you're gonna love it.
- RBRoger Bennett
Go on.
- BBBrené Brown
What's one thing you're deeply curious about right now?
- RBRoger Bennett
Oh, um, how to sleep again for the first time all year.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
Um, is, is, is really, um, is the honest answer. Just how to readapt to civilian life-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- RBRoger Bennett
... um, after this is-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- RBRoger Bennett
... for, for my whole y- And I don't just mean for me-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- RBRoger Bennett
... but we have 120 people working with us. How to maintain the intensity, uh, that's driven us to this place while lowering that, the kind of war footing that we've been on for the past eight months to be able to win this thing.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, I just have to say, if you're listening, it's gonna be worth popping over to YouTube to watch this, to see the r- red-rimmed eyes that just poked-
- RBRoger Bennett
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... right up and just said... I mean, it was, it, it, it made me want to cry a little bit, his face. I will also tell you, um, Adam and I both done a lot of work with NASA. Um, reentry is real. The reentry-
- RBRoger Bennett
Reentry
- BBBrené Brown
... yeah. And so-
- RBRoger Bennett
I mean, it's... I got the bends on my first day back.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah. No, for sure.
- RBRoger Bennett
I think the first... I think I got a shave for you then. I did. I got a shave for the first time in, uh, in about 12, in about 12 months.
- BBBrené Brown
You, you look very dapper, but I will tell you, it's hard on relationships.
- RBRoger Bennett
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
It's hard on teams. Um, it's tough. So best of all of our love for reentry. Number two, curiosity shops are wild and wacky places, if you've ever been in one. They have all kinds of weird shit on every shelf. If you got to design your own curiosity shop, what would be one thing that would have to be in your curiosity shop on a shelf?
- RBRoger Bennett
Anyone who's looking at this on YouTube- We'll know that as you broadcast from a curiosity shop. Um, and the one thing I take with me everywhere I go is Tracy Chapman's, uh, Fast Car album. It's a reminder, um, that whatever's happening in your life, um, particularly in sports when your team loses devastatingly, I always play Fast Car almost always within the first 10 minutes of defeat. Uh, 'cause I do believe it's really important to know however sad you are feeling in that moment, however sad you think you're feeling, Tracy Chapman has seen worse, has lived worse, or, or there's a reminder that what you're feeling is in, in the end, the most important, least important thing, um, sports is, and that what real people are going through is so much more painful. So always that album.
- BBBrené Brown
Beautiful. Um, I just wanna say Haaland definitely went to a curiosity shop 'cause every curiosity shop in Texas has a taxidermied raccoon. Um, and I will say I was so proud in that moment as a Texan. [laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
He went to Wild Willy's 'cause we went right after he got that, and we tried to buy a whiskey raccoon too.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- RBRoger Bennett
But they were sold out immediately. We had to make do with a squirrel.
- 1:05:30 – 1:14:48
Takeaways from Roger Bennett's Interview
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. What a gem.
- BBBrené Brown
Is he just incredible?
- AGAdam Grant
I could, I could literally listen to him talk all day.
- BBBrené Brown
I know. He's just... Literally, when they put the, when they put the, the story, when I saw the story, what Rog Bennett eats in a day, I think I, I think my response on Stories was Football Shakespeare with an SEC Longhorn chaser.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Liver- a Longhorn Liverpool chaser. 'Cause, I mean, he's so... Trevor Noah said something really funny about him. Trevor said, um, "You know, you listen to the, the, the normal football fan, and they're like, 'Ah, oh, ooh.' And then you listen to you at a game, and you're like, 'While we walk through the shadow of the pitch at night, the light from the midfield shines on...'"
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
You know? Um, I'm so glad you got to meet him.
- AGAdam Grant
I'm so glad you introduced us. Thank you for connecting us. And yeah, I think he's, he's the poet laureate of football.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. That's so good. That's so good. So in addition to loving Roger, which was part of my plan, what's one thing that you learned that surprised you from our conversation with him?
- AGAdam Grant
You know what, one thing that I did not see coming at all was the experience of withdrawal.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
I didn't, I didn't think about that at all, but I think he, he captured something that we don't pay attention to when we create such an immersive experience, which is, it's, it's what you said. It's the re-entry, like, like we've seen in play at NASA. And I don't think I've ever thought to prepare myself before, or my kids for that matter, for, like you're gonna, you're gonna get so wrapped up in, so absorbed in, you know, whether it, whether it's the, you know, the World Cup or the Olympics or, you know, anything that's designed to be a- an immersive experience that we actually need to think about how to remove ourselves from that and not feel unmoored or unsettled or just missing that sense of joy and focus and purpose. And that, that I think is something that needs more attention.
- BBBrené Brown
I will say that, I mean, I agree with you 100%. I was struck by Roger's face when he kinda leaned toward the camera and said, "exhaustion, re-entry." Um, I was so hoping we were gonna get through this podcast without an explicit warning, but this is what you signed up for, Adam, when you signed up to co-host with me. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... there's a phenomenon that I have called, that, that I have called out in a lot of my work with teams called missed you, fuck you.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And, and, uh, and it's really hard, and I've seen it in teams that are very deeply operational and come home, and what they can't make sense of is how, how deeply they yearned for their partners, their children, their friends, how much they miss them. But then when they get home, there is so much tension and stress. And one, one military officer said to me, "Being deployed is falling through the air at a very fast pace and not knowing how you're going, you know, and what's gonna happen, and you're holding onto your team, and you're looking at your team, and you're trying to figure out how this is gonna work. But walking through my front door was landing splat on the ground."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Like, and I had rather be falling with my team than... And so I don't, I think it is a very under-researched, misunderstood, and I think part of it is the shame that we feel when we get home after an intense commitment for days and days, and some of these operations are months. In, in the term in NASA, you can talk to astronauts who said, "Oh my God, I thought about my kids and my partner every day, but I need to get back to my team right away."
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And, you know, and tell, tell me more. I, I, I, I need to be back with the people that shared the experience with me, that I don't have adequate words to explain. 'Cause I walked in the back door, and there was tears and hugs and, "Hey, can you drop me off at swim team tomorrow morning?" And I'm thinking, "Will the capsule survive? What did we see up there that we need to under..." You know, it's, it's a dimension shifting at a whole different level.
- AGAdam Grant
It really is.
- BBBrené Brown
Does that make sense to you?
- AGAdam Grant
I th- I think you've, you've captured it really well, and I think sometimes when I talk to people about that re-entry, they say, "Well, of- but of course, you know, the magnitude of purpose and focus and, you know, unique shared experience. Yeah, an astronaut would get that, but, you know, not, not the rest of us." And yet, in a smaller, much more ordinary form, it's the same thing I've seen when our kids leave summer camp, when they've been, you know, at sleepaway camp for three or four weeks.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And all of a sudden, like, they have to just leave that world and leave all their friends. It's the same experience as graduating from college-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, god, yes
- AGAdam Grant
... where all of a sudden, like you, ev- everyone, everyone you'd spent the last four years with was within walking distance, and the whole thing dispersed, and the place is still there, but the people are gone. And it's the same thing I feel when, when I do intensive teaching for a week or when I go to a conference for a few days, and you've been transported into a different world with a core set of people that have had, you know, shared norms and discussed things that nobody else has, has quite been able to relate to. And, and all of a sudden, you're going back to the rhythms of everyday life, and you, you really feel out of place. It's a, it's a liminality, I- I guess is, is one thing. I think you're right about the shame, but there's also a liminality of I'm between experiences, and-
- BBBrené Brown
For sure
Episode duration: 1:14:49
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode pFZY3FzkoAY
