How To Build A Startup Brand

1. 0:00 – 0:30

   Why weird names (Claude, Airbnb) still become strong brands

   1. MSMichael Seibel0:00

      I remember Anthropic, they're like, "Oh, this is our thing, Claude." And I'm like- That's a weird name ... Claude? [laughs] Like, she's... Like, what? And again, now, it's like, yeah, Claude. You know, we get used to it. If Claude does enough work for you, you're like- That's my best friend [laughs] ... I love Claude. Yeah, but that's what they came up with? [laughs] That's- that was the best they could do? [laid-back music] This is Dalton plus Michael, and today we're gonna talk about how to build a brand. So I heard that you guys

2. 0:30 – 1:00

   The branding-agency shortcut mentality (and why it’s tempting)

   1. MSMichael Seibel0:30

      are starting up a bit of a branding agency here. We love, we love brands. [laughs] Uh, step one, hire a branding agency. Step two? Step two, profit. That's it. That's a two-step plan. Oh, I thought it was three. I think you have to pay the branding agent a lot of money. [laughs] I think that goes without saying. Okay. Um, so look, I think we're being a little facetious because this is an example of, uh, where we're the first to admit that brand is really important. Sure. And that if you wanna build a really important company, you need to have a great brand. Yes. Now, what

3. 1:00 – 1:31

   Anti-pattern: press, stunts, and ‘branding’ that ignores the product

   1. MSMichael Seibel1:00

      causes us to perhaps roll our eyes a little bit is the process by which a founder thinks a brand is created, right? You wanna... I know- Yeah ... yeah. So- You didn't even wanna make this video, Michael. [laughs] So, like, that's how much you don't like talking about branding. Yeah. So let's say, like, spamming people, um, going after press, trying to get as many speaking slots at conferences as humanly possible, doing weird stunts ad infinitum. Basically, like, not understanding

4. 1:31 – 3:33

   Word of mouth is the real brand engine

   1. MSMichael Seibel1:31

      how much of your brand is being built by the service you provide your customers. Yeah. And I think it's like, I'll go even one step deeper. I don't... The, the phrase word of mouth used to be really popular back in the day, and I feel like it's kind of completely gone away. For better or for worse, your customer's experience with your product is probably the biggest brand force for your entire company. And so, like, you wanna build your brand, make sure your next customer loves your product. The, the amount that that's gonna create brand value for you is 10 times more than almost any other brand building thing you could do. So how did, why do people get confused about this? I, I think the anti-pattern is that, like most things in life, it's convenient to believe that you can hire a service provider- Yeah ... to get the thing that you want. Like- We have a great product. You- We just don't have a brand yet ... you wanna- So if we have a consultant... You wanna believe that you can buy product market fit. Yes. You wanna believe that you can buy users. Yes, yes. You wanna believe that you can buy great employees. Yes. Like, like we wanna believe, you know, I'm sure we still fall for this, man. You, you know- Yes ... like, we're not, we're not above this. But you're like, "How do I just buy the best thing and s- do a shortcut and just skip to the goodness- [laughs] ... and not have to, you know, do any of this, like, work stuff?" [laughs] Like, is that what we all want? Exactly, exactly. Um, and so brand is one of those things where you're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, Apple's a really good brand. Who can I pay so that we are Apple's, we get their brand?" Like, is there, like, let's, like, hire Jony Ive, you know? And like, cool, we're Apple now. I mean- It's just that easy ... th- th- and this is what pisses me off is 'cause, like, you know, we came up when Steve Jobs kind of reinvigorated Apple. If we could summarize what Apple did very, very succinctly is they made products that we were very excited to buy. Yep. And, like, when our friends had the iPod and we didn't, it was like, oh man, that's awesome. And I guess I remember some ads, but do I even remember an ad? [laughs] Yeah.

5. 3:33 – 4:03

   No shortcuts: over-deliver on a promise repeatedly

   1. MSMichael Seibel3:33

      There aren't shortcuts. Like, again- Yeah ... I guess that's the, this is not what you wanna hear probably, audience. Yes. But, um, you build it over delivering on a promise- Yes ... over and over and over and over again- Yeah ... enough times that that is, that is your brand. Your brand is defined by this thing you do over and over and over again. Yes. And all of your actions. Yes. And every, and with every interaction your customers have with your product. Well, and I think the, the thing that unfor- I think the un- the unfortunate truth is that

6. 4:03 – 5:04

   Growth can hide weak product-market fit—and then collapse

   1. MSMichael Seibel4:03

      all too often, when a founder's got a graph going up to the right, they assume their product is working, and then they kind of are asking this question: Okay, how do we get more juice? How do we get more distribution? How do we improve the brand? And what's so unfortunate is how frequently I see a graph go like this and then like this and then like this. Yep. Because people try the product, they sign up for that one year, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And if the product delivers, great. But more often than not, it doesn't. And so then when their friend's talking about it, they're like, "Oh, it's fine. Oh, we're trying it," da, da, da, da. Yep. When their company's like, "Hey, can you use this?" And you're like, "Shut up, I don't wanna use this new fucking tool." And then... They leave. And the time that you were spending building your brand, if you were spending solving the customer's problem- Yeah ... so that they were like, "Oh, I love working with this company." 100%. You have personal experience, you know, with some of the most iconic brands in the world, and you know how they were created. Yeah. So, like, let's talk about Reddit for a second.

7. 5:04 – 6:06

   Reddit’s brand: build what you personally love (because others like you exist)

   1. MSMichael Seibel5:04

      You know, for, for context, you're on the board of Reddit and, like, Steve's your friend. Yeah. And you were friends with him from when you guys were kids, basically. Early, yeah. I mean, I think- So, like, how did... You know, did he hire a brand? Yeah. Was he like, "Tell me how to make Reddit the most important website in the world," or- Uh... Yeah, what did he actually do? You know, there was this conversation that was interesting, kind of famous between Steve and PG that was retold to me, which was basically assume there are a lot of people like you on the internet, and make something that you would really, really enjoy using. And kind of giving Steve the permission to basically be like, "If I like it, other people will like it, so I'm gonna make something that I love." You know, it's funny 'cause Reddit used to have no subreddits. There was just one thing, and Reddit got fairly big before they had to build subreddits and kind of this other stuff because it turns out Steve wasn't a unique snowflake, and there were a lot of people who liked- Well, the original subreddit, there was, there was one subreddit and it was Steve. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like, he was, he was moderating Reddit to be his own personal subreddit. Exactly. [laughs] And then- ... people

8. 6:06 – 6:36

   Twitch’s brand came from serving the real customer: streamers

   1. MSMichael Seibel6:06

      like Steve. And so to me, I think that was, like, incredible. I think that, you know, in the story of Justin.tv and, and Twitch, right, like our brand didn't even matter until we realized, like, who our customers were, right? Like, the second we realized that our real customers were streamers, it changed everything, right? Like, I'd say the first five years of the company, the brand was basically largely irrelevant. We weren't, w- we hadn't identified the user that we could really help.

   2. DCDalton Caldwell6:35

      The piracy we [laughs]

9. 6:36 – 8:17

   Trust as brand: the competitor poaching story and “don’t lie to users”

   1. MSMichael Seibel6:36

      The piracy use case. Turns out people who owned content didn't really like that we were just streaming it. When we figured out that these streamers wanted to make money and wanted a really great support and a really great platform, and we started serving them really well, and then they started making more content, that was the positive flywheel. And serving our streamers well is what built our brand. And I remember there was this moment that, uh, our COO, Kevin, there, we had a competitor who basically offered all of our top streamers, like, a ton of money. And he did all the math, and he was just like, "We... This, like, doesn't work." And so he had the bravery to basically tell folks, like, "Hey, we can't match this. I understand if you wanna go with them. But if for whatever reason it doesn't work out, know that we love you, and you can come back any time." A whole bunch of people left. Three months in, when they were supposed to get their first check, guess what happened? No checks came, 'cause the company that stole the folks also couldn't monetize them. Every single one of those people came back. It turns out not lying to your users [laughs] is, like, how you can build a brand. And so I think that there's this misconception, and it always, this is what's always so painful, because how often the answer for why your company worked is that, like, you didn't actually serve your users well enough? That's, like, 99% chance. Like, 99% chance you did not figure out how to make enough of an impact in your user's business, life, work, whatever.

   2. DCDalton Caldwell8:05

      Yeah.

   3. MSMichael Seibel8:05

      Do you know any companies that made a huge impact in a c- in a user's lives, but failed because of their brand? [laughs] Like, I can't think of any.

   4. DCDalton Caldwell8:14

      I mean, it's, it's hard to view this through fresh eyes.

   5. MSMichael Seibel8:17

      [laughs]

10. 8:17 – 9:49

    Bad logos, odd names, and “we got used to it”: Airbnb, Claude, Kalshi, Whatnot

    1. DCDalton Caldwell8:17

       But I remember the name Airbnb and the logo being, like, the worst thing I've ever seen.

    2. MSMichael Seibel8:25

       It was spelled out.

    3. DCDalton Caldwell8:26

       It's-

    4. MSMichael Seibel8:26

       It was spelled out.

    5. DCDalton Caldwell8:27

       It's just, like-

    6. MSMichael Seibel8:28

       AirbnbBreakfast.com

    7. DCDalton Caldwell8:29

       ... the worst. It's, like-

    8. MSMichael Seibel8:30

       [laughs]

    9. DCDalton Caldwell8:31

       ... the most unappealing brand I could think of, and it's everywhere now. And again, like, you, we, we all just got used to it. Um, and that's, like, a really big thing. I, you know, I remember Anthropic, they're like, "Oh, this is our thing, Claude." And I'm like-

    10. MSMichael Seibel8:46

        That's a weird name

    11. DCDalton Caldwell8:47

        ... Claude?

    12. MSMichael Seibel8:48

        [laughs]

    13. DCDalton Caldwell8:48

        Like, just, like, what? And again, now, it's like, yeah, Claude. You know, we get used to it. But if you're like-

    14. MSMichael Seibel8:54

        What is, Claude's a perfect example. If Claude does enough work for you, you're like-

    15. DCDalton Caldwell8:57

        That's my best friend

    16. MSMichael Seibel8:58

        ... "I love Claude." [laughs]

    17. DCDalton Caldwell8:59

        Yeah, but that's what they came up with?

    18. MSMichael Seibel9:01

        [laughs]

    19. DCDalton Caldwell9:03

        That's, that was the best they could do? And so, you know, at the end of the day, we've seen a lot of these iconic brands that seem just, like, normal stuff founders come up with become big.

    20. MSMichael Seibel9:16

        Yeah.

    21. DCDalton Caldwell9:16

        And it's not because they spent money on brand. I mean, here's one from right now. I can't watch television-

    22. MSMichael Seibel9:21

        Mm-hmm

    23. DCDalton Caldwell9:21

        ... without seeing Kalshi mentioned.

    24. MSMichael Seibel9:23

        Yep.

    25. DCDalton Caldwell9:24

        And you funded them for YC. You're their first investor.

    26. MSMichael Seibel9:27

        Yep, yep, yep.

    27. DCDalton Caldwell9:27

        And, like, that, they never changed their name.

    28. MSMichael Seibel9:29

        Nope.

    29. DCDalton Caldwell9:29

        They never changed their logo.

    30. MSMichael Seibel9:30

        Nope. And, and-
11. 9:49 – 11:26

    When ‘branding’ matters more: commodity markets vs. complex tech products

    1. MSMichael Seibel9:49

       What's so interesting about this is that, um, winning is so hard, and I think sometimes in the startup game and the technology game, maybe you would get confused about branding because you'd be like, "Well, what, what can I learn from other businesses," right? And it's like, okay, well, if you're selling, you know, ice cream in the grocery aisle and it's fundamentally a commodity, maybe you were having a different conversation about brand, right? Like, you know, I always think about, like, Talenti ice cream has the, like, the clear-

    2. DCDalton Caldwell10:16

       Yep

    3. MSMichael Seibel10:16

       ... thing, so you can see the ice cream inside of it. And it's like, honestly, if your surface of innovation is the logo and the packaging [laughs] then, like, maybe you're having a different conversation. Maybe that branding conversation is more relevant in that field versus if the surface of your product here is like, oh, it's doing all these things for consumers or all these things for businesses, it's probably way more complicated than a logo and clear packaging. And so maybe the mistake people are making is, like, oh, I'm trying to, like, learn brand techniques from these other businesses-

    4. DCDalton Caldwell10:52

       Yep

    5. MSMichael Seibel10:52

       ... and apply them here. Do you think that's happening a little bit?

    6. DCDalton Caldwell10:55

       For sure. And, again, to give you another data point, you know, Whatnot, I funded them for YC. It was unlaunched. Same name. They never changed their name.

    7. MSMichael Seibel11:02

       Yeah.

    8. DCDalton Caldwell11:03

       They made their, like, website look a little better, but it's the same W with yellow.

    9. MSMichael Seibel11:07

       [laughs]

    10. DCDalton Caldwell11:07

        Like, like, it's the same brand, dude.

    11. MSMichael Seibel11:08

        Yeah.

    12. DCDalton Caldwell11:08

        And so having seen these things that are now, like, top of the app store household names-

    13. MSMichael Seibel11:13

        Yeah

    14. DCDalton Caldwell11:13

        ... it would appear a, an astonishingly small amount of effort went into branding and that the actual effort was, like, in all the other stuff. So again, let's try-

    15. MSMichael Seibel11:24

        Yes

    16. DCDalton Caldwell11:24

        ... to make this actual, not just like, "Hey, founder-"

12. 11:26 – 12:47

    Practical definition: articulate who you serve, what you do, and what you stand for

    1. MSMichael Seibel11:26

       Yes

    2. DCDalton Caldwell11:26

       ... like, why would you ask about this? I guess, like, I think you should define what is my startup trying to do.

    3. MSMichael Seibel11:33

       Yes. [laughs]

    4. DCDalton Caldwell11:35

       Um, who are we trying to serve? What do we wanna be great at? And your brand is your ability to articulate those things and deliver on them, and that if you can't articulate that-

    5. MSMichael Seibel11:48

       Mm-hmm

    6. DCDalton Caldwell11:48

       ... no amount of branding will help you. Like, what are you even trying to do? And you're like, "I don't know, like, stuff for people."

    7. MSMichael Seibel11:53

       Yeah.

    8. DCDalton Caldwell11:53

       That's, you know, that's not gonna get it done.

    9. MSMichael Seibel11:55

       Nope.

    10. DCDalton Caldwell11:55

        And then I think you kinda have to know what you stand for, right?

    11. MSMichael Seibel11:58

        I think the thing that I would tell founders is assume your product is screwing you, not your brand.

    12. DCDalton Caldwell12:06

        Yeah.

    13. MSMichael Seibel12:06

        And you'll be right more often than you're wrong. And when you or the people on your team are, or even your users, are telling you your product's great- Be skeptical.

    14. DCDalton Caldwell12:17

        Hmm.

    15. MSMichael Seibel12:17

        I think, like, be skeptical, and the best businesses improve great products. The best businesses can take a product that's great and make it greater and greater and greater and greater, and they, they don't have this mentality, "We made a great product, now what? Now let's work on our brand. Now let's work on our sales." And then they-

    16. DCDalton Caldwell12:38

        Yeah, a brand is not this separate thing over here. It's part of the, the whole thing.

    17. MSMichael Seibel12:42

        It's part of the whole thing, and it's the result of making great products consistently over time.

13. 12:47 – 14:49

    Rebrands: when they make sense (pivots) vs. when they signal internal politics

    1. DCDalton Caldwell12:47

       And so why, why do people rebrand? Like, why do you need to do it? I, I, I'm just trying to think of one off the top of my head. Do you remember, um, the company was called ZenPayroll-

    2. MSMichael Seibel12:57

       Yep

    3. DCDalton Caldwell12:58

       ... and then they changed to Gusto? Still not sure I love the name Gusto, 'cause it's-

    4. MSMichael Seibel13:03

       I mean-

    5. DCDalton Caldwell13:03

       ... very general purpose, but it's because they wanted to do more than payroll.

    6. MSMichael Seibel13:05

       Exactly.

    7. DCDalton Caldwell13:05

       So that made sense.

    8. MSMichael Seibel13:06

       That makes sense.

    9. DCDalton Caldwell13:06

       Like, again, that's-

    10. MSMichael Seibel13:06

        Yeah.

    11. DCDalton Caldwell13:07

        I get why you would change that.

    12. MSMichael Seibel13:08

        Yeah. But let's be clear. It's not like, and then they changed their name to Gusto, and then they became a unicorn. [laughs] Like, it wasn't like-

    13. DCDalton Caldwell13:14

        No, it was more they just kinda had to.

    14. MSMichael Seibel13:16

        Yeah, they wanted to appeal to customers who wanted, uh, health insurance. I mean, we changed it 'cause we were pivoting from watch anything to watching video games.

    15. DCDalton Caldwell13:23

        Makes sense.

    16. MSMichael Seibel13:24

        Maybe you can do something to make your brand less confusing, but, like, changing from Justin.tv/Gaming to Twitch did not make Twitch grow.

    17. DCDalton Caldwell13:32

        Well, it's funny.

    18. MSMichael Seibel13:33

        [laughs]

    19. DCDalton Caldwell13:33

        It, it seems like a lot of rebranding, the problem it's trying to solve is internal company politics, and that's my most charitable explanation of why Google-

    20. MSMichael Seibel13:41

        Hmm

    21. DCDalton Caldwell13:41

        ... has a lot of products all named confusingly similar things. Like, how many chat products do they have? And they're AI, I think. Could you name what AI products does Google ship?

    22. MSMichael Seibel13:49

        Oh, God.

    23. DCDalton Caldwell13:49

        We got Gemini, we got, you know-

    24. MSMichael Seibel13:51

        Notebook, da, da, da

    25. DCDalton Caldwell13:51

        ... there's like 20 of them.

    26. MSMichael Seibel13:52

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    27. DCDalton Caldwell13:53

        Um, and I think it's just because those are different teams. Like-

    28. MSMichael Seibel13:56

        Hmm

    29. DCDalton Caldwell13:56

        ... like, I think that's an org chart problem.

    30. MSMichael Seibel13:58

        Yeah, that's fair.

Episode duration: 14:50