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Dalton + MichaelDalton + Michael

Process vs Chaos In Startups

In this episode of Dalton + Michael discuss their age old debate of how much process is too much vs too little. When you are designing a process are you creating art or manufacturing bolts? Dalton + Michael is brought to you by @Standard_Cap You can find Dalton Caldwell on X here: https://x.com/daltonc and Michael Seibel here: https://x.com/mwseibel

Michael SeibelhostDalton Caldwellhost
Oct 22, 202512mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:26

    Intro

    1. MS

      A Google style of carefulness was being applied by a startup whose sole job was to explore the risky paths.

    2. DC

      You can end up where the process becomes this big, and the actual product is this big. It, it'd be like if at-

    3. MS

      Yes

    4. DC

      ... at the bolt factory, there was 1,000 process people-

    5. MS

      Yes

    6. DC

      ... and one guy making bolts.

    7. MS

      And one bolt a day comes out of the factory. [laughs]

    8. DC

      [laughs]

    9. MS

      [upbeat music]

  2. 0:26 – 0:52

    Process vs. chaos: the core misconception in startups

    1. MS

      Welcome to Dalton + Michael. Today, we're gonna talk about, we might even debate-

    2. DC

      Ooh

    3. MS

      ... slightly-

    4. DC

      [laughs]

    5. MS

      ... process, procedure.

    6. DC

      The P word.

    7. MS

      Bureaucracy.

    8. DC

      Yep.

    9. MS

      Meetings. And the kinda, the prompt for this one is, um, confusing an organized process with an effective process, and confusing chaos with ineffective or bad outcomes.

  3. 0:52 – 2:03

    Playing roles: why every new process needs a skeptic

    1. DC

      Yeah, I mean, I think the context here is you and I have debated this for many years-

    2. MS

      Yeah

    3. DC

      ... as colleagues.

    4. MS

      Would people guess which s- I don't know that people-

    5. DC

      Yeah, what do you think? Who's the pro-process and anti-process person?

    6. MS

      Yes, and who's the chaos guy?

    7. DC

      Yeah, who's... I think they-

    8. MS

      I think they would assume I'm the chaos guy. I think they might.

    9. DC

      People who know me would never. [laughs]

    10. MS

      It's a great point. You're right. I actually have no idea if people understand-

    11. DC

      Yeah

    12. MS

      ... that I'm the anti-process guy. [laughs]

    13. DC

      [laughs]

    14. MS

      And that you're the pro-process guy. I don't know if that's obvious. Beats me, man.

    15. DC

      Tell us in the comments. Like [laughs] tell us in the comments.

    16. MS

      Um, and so yeah, so the general debate is Michael will be like, "Oh, we need a structured process to do X, Y, and Z."

    17. DC

      Yes.

    18. MS

      And I'm like, "Why?"

    19. DC

      Yes.

    20. MS

      "That sounds bad."

    21. DC

      We would end in many different places.

    22. MS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    23. DC

      [laughs] Depending on the case.

    24. MS

      There'd be some process and then no process.

    25. DC

      Yeah.

    26. MS

      Yeah.

    27. DC

      But it was always an interesting debate because it was always a, I always like the debate because process should always be treated skeptically.

    28. MS

      Yeah. It should always-

    29. DC

      Otherwise, it'll inf- otherwise it'll-

    30. MS

      Exactly

  4. 2:03 – 3:18

    What “good process” looks like: best practices and repeatable quality

    1. DC

      Useful process, so to take the opp- so to, to argue the opposite side that I'm-

    2. MS

      Yes

    3. DC

      ... usually on, useful process is the following: once a best practice exists-

    4. MS

      Yes

    5. DC

      ... you should just do the best practice.

    6. MS

      Yes.

    7. DC

      Otherwise, you're just wasting a ton of time. Think about, um, automation, like, uh, the Industrial Revolution-

    8. MS

      Yeah

    9. DC

      ... where if there's one way to make a bolt on an assembly line-

    10. MS

      Yeah

    11. DC

      ... just keep making the bolts.

    12. MS

      Yeah.

    13. DC

      Those bolts are gonna be better-

    14. MS

      Just do it exactly. Yeah

    15. DC

      ... in every way than a bespoke welder trying to make a bolt by hand. And so process in its best form is just establishing a state-of-the-art best practice-

    16. MS

      Yes

    17. DC

      ... and ramping it way up, and there's no question about how to do something properly.

    18. MS

      Well, like, process in its best form, I love that bolt example, produces a great bolt-

    19. DC

      Which is better-

    20. MS

      ... every time. [laughs]

    21. DC

      Yeah, it's, it's perfect.

    22. MS

      Yeah.

    23. DC

      And, and the process identifies, uh, errors.

    24. MS

      Yes.

    25. DC

      Like, part of the process of making the bolt is the camera detects, oh, this bolt's bad, and it throws it off the assembly line. So yeah, the, an assembly line is an example of fantastic process.

    26. MS

      And a, a great test for whether you have a good process is the outcome good [laughs] -

    27. DC

      Yep

    28. MS

      ... and, and getting better.

    29. DC

      And consistent.

    30. MS

      Yeah, and consistent. [laughs]

  5. 3:18 – 4:10

    How process goes bad: bureaucracy that grows for its own sake

    1. MS

      Yeah. What about bad process?

    2. DC

      Bad process is just like any classic bureaucracy where it exists to grow itself. It's almost like a, dare I say, cancer-

    3. MS

      Okay

    4. DC

      ... where it's a machine that all it wants is to have more power or more people in the process, and it becomes a vector to basically take over everything such that, you know, someone has to weigh in on every decision and has control over how decisions are made.

    5. MS

      Yes.

    6. DC

      There's a whole lot of people employed-

    7. MS

      Yes

    8. DC

      ... in trying to keep the process going. It's like a jobs program. And so you can end up where the process becomes this big, and the actual product is this big. It, it'd be like if at-

    9. MS

      Yes

    10. DC

      ... at the bolt factory, there was 1,000 process people-

    11. MS

      Yes

    12. DC

      ... and one guy making bolts.

    13. MS

      And one bolt a day comes out of the factory. [laughs]

    14. DC

      [laughs]

    15. MS

      Yes.

    16. DC

      That would be bad process.

  6. 4:10 – 5:48

    Why people reach for process: repetition, fear, and anxiety management

    1. MS

      I think an int- a, an interesting thing about process is when people reach for it as a solution. And I can say from personal experience, there are a couple different times where I reach for it as a solution. Um, so one is, like, the same problem keeps happening. The second is fear or anxiety. If I'm doing something for the first time and I'm afraid that it's not going to work, sometimes process gives me comfort. Well, have I made a plan? Like, you know, if I'm cooking something for the first time, have I looked up recipes, and da, da, da, da. Um, so personal fear and anxiety, but I also think fear and anxiety for other people.

    2. DC

      Mm.

    3. MS

      Like, I actually think process can reduce anxiety. That doesn't necessarily mean the output will be good. [laughs] But I do think that, um, a lot of process comes from people being afraid and anxious-

    4. DC

      Yep

    5. MS

      ... and wanting the comfort. And chaos might be comforting when the result's good. It's rarely comforting during the chaos. [laughs] It, it's often, especially for a certain type of people, it's often indi- anxiety-inducing during the chaos.

    6. DC

      Yeah.

    7. MS

      Um, on the flip side, though, what's so funny is if you were to ask me to think back through the biggest innovations or things that have triggered the biggest innovations or change or positive things, they've all started with chaos. They've all started with something breaking-

    8. DC

      Yeah

    9. MS

      ... and having to not follow-

    10. DC

      Yeah, my, my-

    11. MS

      ... whatever the plan was. [laughs]

  7. 5:48 – 6:24

    The bolts vs. art continuum: matching process to the nature of the work

    1. DC

      My mental model for this is the more something looks like producing bolts-

    2. MS

      Mm

    3. DC

      ... the more process works.

    4. MS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. DC

      And the more that it looks like producing art-

    6. MS

      Mm

    7. DC

      ... or a hit song-

    8. MS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    9. DC

      ... the less you can-Be like, "Here's our-

    10. MS

      Process

    11. DC

      ... here's our process." And the- and again, if you think about what people are mad about with, you know, the entertainment industry, Hollywood, or the music industry, it's process-

    12. MS

      Yes

    13. DC

      ... seeping its way.

    14. MS

      MCU, yes.

    15. DC

      Right? [laughs]

    16. MS

      The eighth Avengers movie, yes.

    17. DC

      That's like, that's process-

    18. MS

      Yes

    19. DC

      ... screwing up art. And so that's the continuum, is how much is this art and how much is this a bolt?

  8. 6:24 – 7:17

    MBAification and innovation: when process blocks invention

    1. MS

      I like that, 'cause if I- if I go back to my new favorite term, MBAification, there is this kind of theory that any output could be optimized with process. And like yeah, if you can make a hit movie with that process, I feel to make a better movie with-

    2. DC

      Yeah

    3. MS

      ... with great process.

    4. DC

      Yeah, let's just license some, some comic book guys and-

    5. MS

      Let's get Brad Pitt. [laughs] Let's, you know, like-

    6. DC

      And that's literally the entertainment industry these days.

    7. MS

      [laughs]

    8. DC

      It's, it's like, like MBAification of creating art.

    9. MS

      Yes. And so I think that it's tricky because, um, to your point, it's funny 'cause when you're saying art, I might say innovation. Process makes it kind of hard to invent a new way of doing things. When you need to invent a new way of doing things, you kind of need the freedom to maybe do stuff that's unpopular.

    10. DC

      Yep.

    11. MS

      That is scary, that may be more expensive than people... Right? Like, all the things that process tried to control for. [laughs]

    12. DC

      Yeah.

  9. 7:17 – 8:23

    Choosing where to be ‘bolty’: focus innovation on a few differentiators

    1. MS

      And so I think what gets tricky is like, okay, sometimes I need to be using my creative brain, sometimes I need to be using my bolt brain. How do I choose, right? And it's like well, you know, when you're trying to do your, you know, fundraising paperwork, I'd probably be using my bolt brain, right? Like-

    2. DC

      Yes. [laughs]

    3. MS

      [laughs] It's like you're gonna have to write up your own legal docs from first principles. But like if I'm trying to make my customer service go better, am I innovating? Or sh-

    4. DC

      I mean, you, you definitely wanna measure it like it's bolts.

    5. MS

      Yeah.

    6. DC

      Like, I think for a lot of process you wanna start with measurement.

    7. MS

      I agree. But like do you just wanna fire the customer service guy from the other company? It's not a bad place to start.

    8. DC

      It's tricky though.

    9. MS

      Yeah, yeah, I understand. It's tricky. Like, I always kind of will ask a founder where are the top three places you wanna innovate? Like, like, you probably can't innovate across 20 zones. If you think customer service is gonna be your differentiator, maybe you don't hire that 20 year-

    10. DC

      Yep

    11. MS

      ... person. But if it ain't [laughs]

    12. DC

      [laughs]

  10. 8:23 – 9:13

    Iterating process and avoiding extremes: ‘no meetings ever’ vs. total bureaucracy

    1. MS

      Yeah. Like, you know, w- where do you wanna put your innovation points? I also think that there's something about process, as a lover of process, I love iterating process. Like, one of the things I really enjoy is, okay, the factory is producing bolts too slow.

    2. DC

      Yeah.

    3. MS

      How do we tweak the factory? And I think that sometimes when I encounter people who don't like process, they don't engage in iterating the process. And so it's a tricky thing, 'cause like some of these things have to be done bolty.

    4. DC

      Yep.

    5. MS

      And if you're not tweaking it and fixing it, so now you've got a bad factory. You know, it's like we know a lot of people who are like, "No meetings ever." And then it's like, "And no written specs 'cause I don't wanna be held [laughs] admin-" It's like-

  11. 9:13 – 10:10

    Concrete “good process” example: code reviews, staging, and safer shipping

    1. DC

      I mean, this may be t- too in the weeds, but I think a great example of good process is, um, code reviews.

    2. MS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    3. DC

      [laughs] A written spec. Like, w- no, no, let's not even go to the spec part. But basically, you know, the, the default thing a startup does is everyone can just ship to production, and then you break the website, and then you're like, "Yeah, maybe not that." And you, you have to do a couple of layers before you can ship to production.

    4. MS

      I might even argue just staging.

    5. DC

      Yeah. [laughs]

    6. MS

      But any- but, but I think this is a, you know, this is an interesting point where it's kind of like being too extreme on either side screws you. Like, I think what was so fun working together is that we could play, like, process dude and, like, chaos dude-

    7. DC

      Yeah

    8. MS

      ... because we knew the middle would be in, like-

    9. DC

      Yeah

    10. MS

      ... we, we would kind of get the best of both worlds. I think that both of us without the other one would've had to be a little bit more in the middle. [laughs]

    11. DC

      I think that's well said.

    12. MS

      [laughs]

  12. 10:10 – 10:48

    Innovator’s dilemma and AI disruption: when you must ignore the process people

    1. DC

      Um, and, and where this comes into play when you think about it for a lot of folks out there is, uh, innovator's dilemma, which is a lot of businesses that are gonna get killed by AI disruptors, they're gonna have to ignore all the process people, right? This is cl- you know, to, to recap innovator's dilemma for everybody, it's if a business is really successful doing A, and then this new B thing comes out and it seems potentially disruptive-

    2. MS

      Yeah

    3. DC

      ... businesses will tend not to do B even though they know they should because it screws up A. Like, there's too many stakeholders that are excited about doing A, and that's, the whole business is A.

    4. MS

      Yes.

    5. DC

      So why would we blow up our own business?

  13. 10:48 – 12:48

    Startups as risk-takers: blazing trails vs. walking the Autobahn

    1. MS

      It opens the door, right? It opens the armor in the bus- It's funny because that can happen for startups too. I was talking to a startup in the kind of ed tech space and, you know, AI is enabling them to do things that inconceivable two years ago. But they were saying to me like, "Oh, well, the kids really wanna f- they really wanna read Pokemon books, but of course we can't show them Pokemon 'cause of the copyright." And I'm like, "I respect Pokemon. I respect copyright, for the record."

    2. DC

      Okay.

    3. MS

      [laughs]

    4. DC

      All right. I duly noted, Michael Seibel.

    5. MS

      [laughs]

    6. DC

      It's on the record.

    7. MS

      I think my record is muddy on this topic. [laughs] But, like, it was interesting that, like, a, a Google style of carefulness was being applied by a startup whose sole job was to explore the risky paths.

    8. DC

      Yeah.

    9. MS

      And I think, like, th- this is a kind of meta point that I keep on telling founders is like, "Hey, the, the, the beautifully blazed, straight, like, Autobahn-style road, the big company gets to walk that road. You are chopping down things, and you're in the for- you're blazing the path. And, like, you might have to bend some rules to blaze that path. But if you're walking the Autobahn path, they're gonna-

    10. DC

      Yep

    11. MS

      ... they're gonna run you over every time. Like, you represent the risk in the economy. [laughs] Like, that is your job. You're the risk. Embrace it. Um, 'cause when you don't embrace it, you're just lying to yourself. You still are the risk, even when you're walking the Autobahn. [laughs]

    12. DC

      Yeah. [laughs] Amen.

    13. MS

      So, um, it was an interesting thing. I think I convinced him to let p- the kids read Pokemon books.

    14. DC

      [laughs]

    15. MS

      [laughs] All right. That sounds like a good wrap-up. Thank you, Dalton.

    16. DC

      Sounds good. Thanks, Michael. [outro music]

Episode duration: 12:48

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