Want to Build a Great Startup? Start Having Fun.

1. 0:00 – 1:53

   Introduction to type two fun

   1. MSMichael Seibel0:00

      Maybe the secret for people who made it this far in the video is the founders who've done great things that you admire, and maybe you admire their strategy, you admire their tactics, what they built, this is probably one of their hidden advantages that you don't see. And especially for the founders who stick with it for, like, a decade, two decades, this is really one of their secret advantages that anyone can grab. This is Dalton + Michael, and today we're gonna talk about something that we like to refer to as type two fun. Dalton, w- what is type two fun?

   2. DCDalton Caldwell0:33

      Yeah, let's start with definitions. We're gonna be talking about hard work today.

   3. MSMichael Seibel0:37

      Mm.

   4. DCDalton Caldwell0:37

      And so-

   5. MSMichael Seibel0:38

      For all you startup founders-

   6. DCDalton Caldwell0:39

      [laughs]

   7. MSMichael Seibel0:40

      ... you, you, you should leave, 'cause, like-

   8. DCDalton Caldwell0:41

      It's hard work

   9. MSMichael Seibel0:41

      ... startups are hard work. [laughs]

   10. DCDalton Caldwell0:43

       Um, and so look, let's start with type one fun. Type one fun is something that is fun-

   11. MSMichael Seibel0:48

       Yeah

   12. DCDalton Caldwell0:48

       ... while you're doing it.

   13. MSMichael Seibel0:50

       Like ice cream.

   14. DCDalton Caldwell0:50

       Ice cream is fun.

   15. MSMichael Seibel0:51

       Yeah.

   16. DCDalton Caldwell0:51

       That's type one fun.

   17. MSMichael Seibel0:52

       Yeah.

   18. DCDalton Caldwell0:52

       Um, type two fun is things that are not fun while you are doing them, but in retrospect you're like, "Oh, that was actually pretty fun."

   19. MSMichael Seibel1:03

       Going to the gym.

   20. DCDalton Caldwell1:03

       [laughs]

   21. MSMichael Seibel1:05

       [laughs]

   22. DCDalton Caldwell1:05

       Climbing a mountain. Any kind of, like, intense-

   23. MSMichael Seibel1:07

       Yeah

   24. DCDalton Caldwell1:08

       ... thing that you've done. I think a lot of people, when you look back at the hardest things that you've ever done in your life, like, uh, college or, or what have you-

   25. MSMichael Seibel1:15

       Yes

   26. DCDalton Caldwell1:15

       ... in the moment, you're like, "Man, this is hard."

   27. MSMichael Seibel1:17

       Yes.

   28. DCDalton Caldwell1:18

       And then you look back at it wistfully and you wish you were there, because it was super fun in retrospect.

   29. MSMichael Seibel1:23

       Type two fun is often way more rewarding. Like, in my mind, rewarding is the feeling. Versus type one fun feels a little... It's great, but it feels a little empty calories. [laughs]

   30. DCDalton Caldwell1:36

       And so, you know, you and I used to give a talk at the start of every YC batch-
2. 1:53 – 4:34

   Learning to enjoy hard things

   1. MSMichael Seibel1:53

      Yeah.

   2. DCDalton Caldwell1:53

      And here's, like, the big insight I wanna share, and kind of the theme of the video. You can practice/learn to enjoy doing hard things. [laughs] And you will look back at the, at this time of being a startup founder or, or working as an employee at a startup-

   3. MSMichael Seibel2:10

      Yeah

   4. DCDalton Caldwell2:10

      ... that was really, really hard-

   5. MSMichael Seibel2:12

      Yeah

   6. DCDalton Caldwell2:12

      ... and realize it was the most fun thing you have ever done in your entire life.

   7. MSMichael Seibel2:16

      [laughs] So I completely agree, and, and I think about this in two ways. One, anyone who's doing a startup or anyone who's talented working in a startup, there's something that you got good at that's really hard, right? And so you've experienced working hard at something, getting good at it, and feeling rewarded, and feeling like that was enjoyable. And a lot of what we're trying to do is put that mental model into the actual practice of building your startup.

   8. DCDalton Caldwell2:41

      Yep.

   9. MSMichael Seibel2:41

      Like, let's try to get you to be as excited about building your startup as you are about engineering or talking to customers. Um, but I think the second thing that I think a lot about is this is, like, the biggest unlock for endurance. We talk a lot about how building a startup takes time. How much time are you going to spend on your startup if every day feels like suffering? And how much time are you gonna spend on your startup if every day feels rewarding? And it's kind of like if you can make that shift, "Oh, man, doing hard work is rewarding. That day was a hard day, but it was fun," you're gonna outlast all your competitors.

   10. DCDalton Caldwell3:24

       [laughs]

   11. MSMichael Seibel3:24

       Right? And what's the YC saying? Like, "If you don't die, you win." So, no, that's kinda how I think about it. The other thing that's interesting is when you hear people talk about their startups in hindsight, what do they talk about?

   12. DCDalton Caldwell3:37

       They talk about how much they miss or, like, how fondly they remember doing really hard things. [laughs]

   13. MSMichael Seibel3:45

       [laughs]

   14. DCDalton Caldwell3:46

       And being a part of a really small team.

   15. MSMichael Seibel3:48

       Yes.

   16. DCDalton Caldwell3:49

       And even if it doesn't work out, people look back at these memories-

   17. MSMichael Seibel3:54

       Yes

   18. DCDalton Caldwell3:54

       ... as, as precious. Again, I think we're arguing this is a skill that you could learn.

   19. MSMichael Seibel4:00

       Yes.

   20. DCDalton Caldwell4:00

       And that you choose to frame... This was the advice we give to the founders of the batch. You get to choose of, like, whether you tell yourself a story that, "Wow, YC was really hard."

   21. MSMichael Seibel4:11

       Yep.

   22. DCDalton Caldwell4:11

       "And wow, I didn't sleep at all, and I didn't take care of myself, and we were just suffering the whole time."

   23. MSMichael Seibel4:16

       Yep.

   24. DCDalton Caldwell4:16

       Or you could say, "Wow, this is, like, the coolest thing I've ever done." [laughs]

   25. MSMichael Seibel4:21

       Yes, yes, yes.

   26. DCDalton Caldwell4:21

       "This is the most highly leveraged point of my life."

   27. MSMichael Seibel4:24

       Yes, yes.

   28. DCDalton Caldwell4:25

       And even though you're having the same experience day to day of doing hard things, holy cow, do you come out with a different mentality-

   29. MSMichael Seibel4:32

       Yes

   30. DCDalton Caldwell4:32

       ... if you choose to have fun.

3. 4:34 – 5:41

   The mindset shift in startups

   1. MSMichael Seibel4:34

      Well, and I think it's funny. You know, we talk about at YC a little bit, like, the trough of sorrows, like, when the kind of allure of doing a startup has worn off, but you're pre-product market fit, and you're kind of like, "Oh, crap, this isn't working." And to your point, I think that there's a mindset of, like, "Every day my startup's not working is like hell." There's another mindset, which is like, "Hey, I'm picking this complicated lock."

   2. DCDalton Caldwell4:54

      Yeah.

   3. MSMichael Seibel4:54

      "Or I'm, like, untying this complicated knot, and like, if I figure it out, the reward is so cool. This is more fun than the alternatives." Like, what are the alternatives, right?

   4. DCDalton Caldwell5:03

      Yeah.

   5. MSMichael Seibel5:03

      Like-

   6. DCDalton Caldwell5:03

      This is really living.

   7. MSMichael Seibel5:04

      Exactly.

   8. DCDalton Caldwell5:05

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   9. MSMichael Seibel5:05

      Like, I'm alive.

   10. DCDalton Caldwell5:06

       Yes, exactly.

   11. MSMichael Seibel5:07

       [laughs]

   12. DCDalton Caldwell5:07

       'Cause, like-

   13. MSMichael Seibel5:07

       Right

   14. DCDalton Caldwell5:08

       ... you can always be at Google and be kind of a cog in the machine, kind of inbox outbox, where, like, you have no idea whether you're having an impact.

   15. MSMichael Seibel5:16

       You're ma-

   16. DCDalton Caldwell5:16

       You-

   17. MSMichael Seibel5:16

       You're taking no risks.

   18. DCDalton Caldwell5:18

       Yeah.

   19. MSMichael Seibel5:18

       You're, you're just kinda like-

   20. DCDalton Caldwell5:20

       You're barely making any decisions, right? And in this situation it's like it's your hands on the knot, right? It's your, like, it's, it's your hands on the lock picks. And to me, if you can convince yourself that that, that being empowered is fun, that working on a hard, viable problem and being empowered is probably the most fun.

4. 5:41 – 6:53

   Learning to love being uncomfortable

   1. DCDalton Caldwell5:41

      I think the way that I would always talk about this in office hours is to learn to love being uncomfortable.

   2. MSMichael Seibel5:48

      [laughs]

   3. DCDalton Caldwell5:50

      And that human beings are naturally, you know, homeostasis, right? We're always-

   4. MSMichael Seibel5:55

      Yes

   5. DCDalton Caldwell5:55

      ... seeking comfort.

   6. MSMichael Seibel5:57

      Yes.

   7. DCDalton Caldwell5:57

      And in any situation we're put in, we're like, "Oh, if this is uncomfortable, I wanna be more comfortable." And if you look at the life of-

   8. MSMichael Seibel6:03

      Yes

   9. DCDalton Caldwell6:03

      ... like, you know, many jobs-

   10. MSMichael Seibel6:05

       Yes

   11. DCDalton Caldwell6:06

       ... it involves being very comfortable.

   12. MSMichael Seibel6:07

       Mm-hmm.

   13. DCDalton Caldwell6:08

       You know, comfortable seats, comfortable desks. Nothing unexpected ever happens. You know, they do your laundry for you at the office. They-

   14. MSMichael Seibel6:16

       That's almost the def-

   15. DCDalton Caldwell6:17

       ... cater lunches

   16. MSMichael Seibel6:18

       ... that's almost how you know you're a replaceable cog, right? If nothing in your life suck, uh, uncomfortable, you're very easy to replace.

   17. DCDalton Caldwell6:24

       And so I get that a lot of founders deeply are seeking comfort. It makes sense. It's intuitive. But man, if you can learn to embrace being uncomfortable-

   18. MSMichael Seibel6:36

       Yeah

   19. DCDalton Caldwell6:36

       ... and find it fun, and seek uncomfortable-

   20. MSMichael Seibel6:39

       Yes

   21. DCDalton Caldwell6:39

       ... that's actually how you stretch yourself to do fantastic work. And the number one way to get good at sales, for instance-

   22. MSMichael Seibel6:46

       Yeah

   23. DCDalton Caldwell6:46

       ... is to get comfortable just doing a lot of sales and getting-

   24. MSMichael Seibel6:49

       Yes

   25. DCDalton Caldwell6:49

       ... having people tell you no a lot, and getting rejected.

   26. MSMichael Seibel6:51

       Yes.

   27. DCDalton Caldwell6:51

       And you learn to kind of love it.

5. 6:53 – 8:38

   Transferring grit from life to startups

   1. MSMichael Seibel6:53

      Well, and this is the funny bit, is that, like, you don't have to learn this from scratch. There is something else in your life that you've had this experience with, right? And so in my mind, this is just transferring that knowledge you have, that skill that took a long time, maybe that sport that you did, or maybe that academic subject you got good at. It's just transferring that to the, your startup. And when you look at those things, right, like, you know, if you're in sports, going to the gym, going to practice, da, da, da, da. Like, there were a lot of times that you're just, like, kind of grinding.

   2. DCDalton Caldwell7:24

      And think about it. In those experiences, what actually made you better?

   3. MSMichael Seibel7:28

      It's the time grinding.

   4. DCDalton Caldwell7:29

      It's, like, the pain.

   5. MSMichael Seibel7:31

      Yes. [laughs]

   6. DCDalton Caldwell7:31

      It's basically you only get better-

   7. MSMichael Seibel7:34

      Yes

   8. DCDalton Caldwell7:34

      ... if you push yourself to failure.

   9. MSMichael Seibel7:35

      Exactly.

   10. DCDalton Caldwell7:35

       If you push yourself to, you know, your body having to react.

   11. MSMichael Seibel7:40

       Yes.

   12. DCDalton Caldwell7:40

       Right? [laughs]

   13. MSMichael Seibel7:41

       Yes. That's where all of the value comes in that moment.

   14. DCDalton Caldwell7:43

       And again, that, and these people aren't suffering, right? Like they-

   15. MSMichael Seibel7:46

       No

   16. DCDalton Caldwell7:46

       ... like-

   17. MSMichael Seibel7:46

       No

   18. DCDalton Caldwell7:47

       ... they love playing the game. [laughs]

   19. MSMichael Seibel7:48

       It's funny 'cause when I think about, you know, people always ask me stories about Justin TV and Twitch, and, like, the most horrible thing is that people ask me, like, "Well, what happened the day that, like, the company sold and you got this money?" And my memory is, like, not good. But then if you ask me about the five times the company almost died, I feel like I can give you, like, a, a minute-by-minute, like, [laughs] rundown of, like, "This is what was happening. This is why it sucked. This is what we did. We almost died." And far more rewarding. Like far, like those are the memories I cherish, right?

   20. DCDalton Caldwell8:23

       Yeah.

   21. MSMichael Seibel8:23

       Like, the hardest moments are the memories I cherish. Not that, like, making money was bad, but it's just, like, it, it, it turns out that, like, you know, if we go back to the gym, do you remember the warmup set? Or do you remember, like, your PR when you really-

   22. DCDalton Caldwell8:36

       Right

   23. MSMichael Seibel8:36

       ... stretched yourself and you didn't think you could do it?

6. 8:38 – 11:01

   The competitive edge of type two fun

   1. MSMichael Seibel8:38

      You know? And so I think that the interesting thing for founders to understand is that unfortunately, when there are groups of people, and those groups of people are running away from hard work, you can start thinking that maybe that's the right thing. Like, oh, maybe-

   2. DCDalton Caldwell8:53

      Well-

   3. MSMichael Seibel8:53

      ... I'll work hard and let me figure out the hack. Let me-

   4. DCDalton Caldwell8:55

      The-

   5. MSMichael Seibel8:55

      ... figure out the cheat.

   6. DCDalton Caldwell8:56

      Why did we give this talk at the beginning of the batch?

   7. MSMichael Seibel8:59

      Yes.

   8. DCDalton Caldwell8:59

      We gave this talk because too many people thought, "I got into YC."

   9. MSMichael Seibel9:04

      Hard work's done.

   10. DCDalton Caldwell9:05

       "Now I can be comfortable. I've done it."

   11. MSMichael Seibel9:06

       [laughs]

   12. DCDalton Caldwell9:07

       "Like, we made it," right? Like, "Oh, I'm on easy street."

   13. MSMichael Seibel9:10

       [laughs]

   14. DCDalton Caldwell9:11

       "What, you know, I got into YC." And we're like, "Hey, folks. Bad news."

   15. MSMichael Seibel9:15

       Ooh. [laughs]

   16. DCDalton Caldwell9:15

       "We, we have some tough news to tell you."

   17. MSMichael Seibel9:18

       Oh. [laughs] Boo.

   18. DCDalton Caldwell9:19

       Like, if that's your mentality, you are not gonna make it.

   19. MSMichael Seibel9:22

       No. [laughs]

   20. DCDalton Caldwell9:22

       And instead, we invite you to learn to embrace doing really uncomfortable things and do it in an environment with peers.

   21. MSMichael Seibel9:33

       Yes. Well, and it's so funny. I think we also want you to embrace being in an uncomfortable environment. Being in an environment where almost everyone is gonna lose is uncomfortable.

   22. DCDalton Caldwell9:45

       Yeah.

   23. MSMichael Seibel9:45

       Right? Like, being motivated in that kind of environment is a superpower. And I remember, you know, we used to say this, PG came up with this, which was basically like the opening of YC, only a small number of you are gonna win. And it's so interesting because when you talk to the folks who ended up winning, they all told the same story. They all were like, "Man, this is depressing, but we're gonna be the one. We're gonna be one of 'em."

   24. DCDalton Caldwell10:10

       [laughs]

   25. MSMichael Seibel10:11

       "Like, we're gonna, we're gonna figure it out." [laughs] And it's like, if you can bring that to the table, I would argue there's so many advantages. You know, if your competition raises more money or has better talent or blah, blah, blah, or they started earlier, and they don't bring this to the table, they don't enjoy type two fun.

   26. DCDalton Caldwell10:28

       Yeah. It, it's almost like, um, you know, plants turn sunlight into energy, you know, photosynthesis.

   27. MSMichael Seibel10:33

       Yes.

   28. DCDalton Caldwell10:34

       Um, great founders turn being uncomfortable into motivation, and in turn, it fuels them.

   29. MSMichael Seibel10:41

       Yes.

   30. DCDalton Caldwell10:41

       They're like, "Yeah." [laughs]
7. 11:01 – 12:10

   Flipping the mindset switch

   1. DCDalton Caldwell11:01

      time.

   2. MSMichael Seibel11:01

      Well, and the other fun thing I love about that mentality is you're not waiting for the torture to end. And I feel like-

   3. DCDalton Caldwell11:06

      It's 'cause it's not torture. [laughs]

   4. MSMichael Seibel11:07

      Exactly. Whereas I feel like so many founders are like, "So I'm gonna work really hard to my Series B, and then it'll get easy." Or, like, that saying that, like, oh, first you're pushing the rock up the hill, and then you're, like, chasing it down. It's like all of these sayings around, like, now it's gonna be easy, where I don't know about you, but when I talk to, like, the founders of GitCom-

   5. DCDalton Caldwell11:26

      Yeah, it's all not true. Sorry

   6. MSMichael Seibel11:26

      ... they're like, yeah, like they're like, that's like the, the, they're getting pummeled by the rock. [laughs]

   7. DCDalton Caldwell11:30

      Yeah.

   8. MSMichael Seibel11:31

      Um, so it's, i- instead of this like, oh, eventually it's gonna be easy, if you get your mindset around I like hard.

   9. DCDalton Caldwell11:37

      That's the key, is I think this is a learnable skill.

   10. MSMichael Seibel11:42

       Yes.

   11. DCDalton Caldwell11:43

       I think if you're watching this video-

   12. MSMichael Seibel11:44

       Yes

   13. DCDalton Caldwell11:45

       ... there's, like, a bit in your brain that can flip.

   14. MSMichael Seibel11:48

       Yes.

   15. DCDalton Caldwell11:48

       Where you might be saying to yourself, "Wow, this is really hard, and I'm suffering, and gee, I just can't wait till this milestone happens."

   16. MSMichael Seibel11:56

       Yes.

   17. DCDalton Caldwell11:56

       "I get this number of users."

   18. MSMichael Seibel11:57

       Yes.

   19. DCDalton Caldwell11:57

       "Or I get into YC," or whatever it is. You can just completely change your mentality.

   20. MSMichael Seibel12:02

       Yes.

   21. DCDalton Caldwell12:02

       And it's your choice to be like, "Wow, I'm having an amazing time. Isn't this fun?"

   22. MSMichael Seibel12:07

       Yeah. [laughs]

   23. DCDalton Caldwell12:08

       And I'm alive.

   24. MSMichael Seibel12:09

       Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]

8. 12:10 – 13:08

   Seeking challenge vs. seeking comfort

   1. MSMichael Seibel12:10

      I wanna, I wanna present a possibly triggering thought, right? So, like, I don't know if you've had this experience, but I had the experience in school of being in some honors classes and some regular classes. And like, in the honors classes, you're around the kids who are grinding, and like they're having fun grinding, and like you're having fun. And in the regular classes, it seems like just showing up is hard work. You would think when you talk to a lot of YC founders or a lot of founders in general that like in that context, the regular class would have been more fun.

   2. DCDalton Caldwell12:41

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MSMichael Seibel12:41

      And it's, it's not.

   4. DCDalton Caldwell12:42

      No.

   5. MSMichael Seibel12:43

      It's absolutely not.

   6. DCDalton Caldwell12:44

      They'd be bored.

   7. MSMichael Seibel12:44

      It-

   8. DCDalton Caldwell12:44

      They're under-stimulated.

   9. MSMichael Seibel12:46

      Exactly.

   10. DCDalton Caldwell12:46

       Right? Like a lot of people-

   11. MSMichael Seibel12:48

       Exactly

   12. DCDalton Caldwell12:48

       ... that are well-suited to be founders are under-stimulated doing normal stuff, right?

   13. MSMichael Seibel12:51

       That's why th- that's why they're doing founder.

   14. DCDalton Caldwell12:53

       [laughs]

   15. MSMichael Seibel12:53

       Exactly. And so it's weird. It's this weird thing, which is probably like seeking challenge is probably inherently one of the reasons why you did this, and then seeking comfort is undermining that. Like just seek greater challenge.

   16. DCDalton Caldwell13:06

       Like-

   17. MSMichael Seibel13:06

       And it got you here

9. 13:08 – 14:31

   Maintaining a healthy foundation

   1. DCDalton Caldwell13:08

      ... and like look, this is an important piece of context to give when we would, when we would give this talk.

   2. MSMichael Seibel13:12

      Yeah.

   3. DCDalton Caldwell13:13

      Um, it was to wri- remind people that like they are okay and they can take this risks-

   4. MSMichael Seibel13:18

      Yes

   5. DCDalton Caldwell13:18

      ... and to do this little personal inventory.

   6. MSMichael Seibel13:20

      Yes.

   7. DCDalton Caldwell13:20

      And so let's do the little inventory.

   8. MSMichael Seibel13:21

      Yeah.

   9. DCDalton Caldwell13:21

      Do you have enough money to pay the rent?

   10. MSMichael Seibel13:23

       Boom.

   11. DCDalton Caldwell13:24

       Are you personally safe?

   12. MSMichael Seibel13:26

       Yes.

   13. DCDalton Caldwell13:26

       Are you getting sleep?

   14. MSMichael Seibel13:28

       Yes.

   15. DCDalton Caldwell13:28

       Are you eating well?

   16. MSMichael Seibel13:29

       Yes.

   17. DCDalton Caldwell13:29

       Do you have exercise?

   18. MSMichael Seibel13:29

       Yes.

   19. DCDalton Caldwell13:29

       Like basically, we certainly were never like, "Yeah, go, you know, give yourself psychosis and take-

   20. MSMichael Seibel13:35

       No

   21. DCDalton Caldwell13:35

       ... incredible risks."

   22. MSMichael Seibel13:35

       No.

   23. DCDalton Caldwell13:35

       This was after we funded them.

   24. MSMichael Seibel13:37

       Yes.

   25. DCDalton Caldwell13:38

       Um, I would almost compare it to getting into the military and boot camp, where, you know, the government probably wants you to not get too messed up.

   26. MSMichael Seibel13:46

       [laughs]

   27. DCDalton Caldwell13:46

       So like basically they, they, they have it down to a science of like how far you can push people.

   28. MSMichael Seibel13:51

       And you have to push people.

   29. DCDalton Caldwell13:52

       And you have to push people, and again, they look back on it where like, "Wow, I'm much better."

   30. MSMichael Seibel13:55

       Yes. [laughs] But they can't kill half the people. [laughs]
10. 14:31 – 15:54

    Viewing the startup journey as an adventure

    1. MSMichael Seibel14:31

       I will say one thing that helps is liking your users-

    2. DCDalton Caldwell14:36

       Yep

    3. MSMichael Seibel14:36

       ... and liking the problem that you're solving. I think it's really, really easy to kind of feel sorry for yourself and get in a negative feedback loop when like you're working on something that I guess like maybe your friends or investors or like the internet thinks is a good idea, but you actually don't yourself enjoy it.

    4. DCDalton Caldwell14:54

       Yeah.

    5. MSMichael Seibel14:54

       Another great hack is like working with people you like who you're friends with, right? Like if you're working with people 'cause you're kind of shoved together in this hodgepodge team and you don't really enjoy them, it's harder. It's harder. But like when you can line up working with people you like, working on a problem you're interested in, liking your users, and enjoying hard work-

    6. DCDalton Caldwell15:17

       It's kinda awesome, right? [laughs]

    7. MSMichael Seibel15:18

       Yeah.

    8. DCDalton Caldwell15:19

       Like [laughs]

    9. MSMichael Seibel15:20

       W- win or lose.

    10. DCDalton Caldwell15:20

        Like you said before.

    11. MSMichael Seibel15:21

        Win or lose, you're probably gonna look back and say, "This was one of the most rewarding times of your life."

    12. DCDalton Caldwell15:25

        Yeah.

    13. MSMichael Seibel15:26

        Yeah.

    14. DCDalton Caldwell15:26

        Well, it's an adventure.

    15. MSMichael Seibel15:27

        Yes.

    16. DCDalton Caldwell15:27

        And I think a lot of people, not everyone-

    17. MSMichael Seibel15:30

        Yes

    18. DCDalton Caldwell15:30

        ... but a lot of people would love to go on an adventure.

    19. MSMichael Seibel15:32

        Yes.

    20. DCDalton Caldwell15:33

        [laughs]

    21. MSMichael Seibel15:34

        Yes.

    22. DCDalton Caldwell15:34

        And how many times in your life can you say that you went on an adventure?

    23. MSMichael Seibel15:39

        Yes. And how many of your friends ever get to go on an adventure? And like you're on this adventure now.

    24. DCDalton Caldwell15:47

        Love it.

    25. MSMichael Seibel15:48

        If you're spending the whole time on the adventure waiting for it to be over-

    26. DCDalton Caldwell15:52

        That's not the right feeling. All right,

11. 15:54 – 17:21

    The unfair advantage of great founders

    1. DCDalton Caldwell15:54

       so what's your last word for founders here? Yeah, I mean, I think it's to realize that this is a learnable skill.

    2. MSMichael Seibel16:02

       Yes.

    3. DCDalton Caldwell16:03

       And that you can, with intention-

    4. MSMichael Seibel16:05

       Yes

    5. DCDalton Caldwell16:05

       ... reframe your daily experiences that you might currently be framing as-

    6. MSMichael Seibel16:09

       Yes

    7. DCDalton Caldwell16:10

       ... "I can't wait till this is over."

    8. MSMichael Seibel16:12

       Yep.

    9. DCDalton Caldwell16:12

       "I'm suffering."

    10. MSMichael Seibel16:13

        Yep.

    11. DCDalton Caldwell16:13

        "Oh, I, you know, I need this milestone to happen, and then I can finally-

    12. MSMichael Seibel16:17

        Yeah

    13. DCDalton Caldwell16:17

        ... enjoy myself." Like if you're telling yourself any of those stories, I'm encouraging you to reframe all those things and to start telling your brain positive stories, that you're learning a lot and you're pushing yourself really h- hard, and you're really proud of that.

    14. MSMichael Seibel16:32

        Yeah.

    15. DCDalton Caldwell16:32

        And that the better you get at this skill to turn discomfort into motivation or like fun, basically-

    16. MSMichael Seibel16:42

        Yeah

    17. DCDalton Caldwell16:43

        ... you'll become an unstoppable force.

    18. MSMichael Seibel16:45

        And like maybe the secret for people who made it this far in the video is the founders who've done great things that you admire, and maybe you admire their strategy, you admire their tactics or what they built, this is probably one of their hidden advantages that you don't see. And especially for the founders who stick with it for like a decade, two decades, this is really one of their secret advantages that anyone can grab.

    19. DCDalton Caldwell17:07

        Yep.

    20. MSMichael Seibel17:08

        Awesome. Great chat. All right. Thanks, Michael. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 17:21