Lessons from History’s Greatest Leaders & Conquerors | Ben Wilson

1. 0:00 – 55:51

   What Ben has learned from making How to Take Over the World and studying history’s greatest leaders.

   1. DSDavid Senra0:00

      Ben Wilson has stage four cancer and four small kids. I wanted to have him on the podcast to talk about his work on the How to Take Over the World podcast, which is, in my opinion, one of the best podcasts ever created, and to talk about what it's like dealing with terminal cancer at such a young age. I also wanna ask you for help in any way that you can. Ben is a good man, and he's been dealt a bad hand. Please watch this podcast and see if you can help with medicine, introductions, or donations. It doesn't matter if you have $5 to spare or $5,000. Any little bit can help Ben's family through this devastating time. He's a good guy and a close friend. Please help in any way that you can. All right. Talk to me about zeal.

   2. BWBen Wilson0:41

      Zeal is a word that we all use, right? So nowadays, zeal means that you are-

   3. DSDavid Senra0:45

      Well, first of all, we all use? No [laughs]

   4. BWBen Wilson0:47

      [laughs]

   5. DSDavid Senra0:47

      I don't think it's in everybody's everyday vocabulary [laughs]

   6. BWBen Wilson0:50

      Well, it, it means you get excited about something, right? You're zealous for something. But Ar- it had a very specific definition, uh, to the ancient Greeks. So Aristotle defined zeal as a type of pain. It is felt by someone when they see another who is like them in nature, who has accomplished good or admirable things, uh, that the other person is capable of but has not yet achieved. You can see it in a lot of famous historical people. So one of my favorite stories of zeal is Thomas Edison. He's 21 years old. He's a telegraph operator, young, smart guy. Those are kinda like the programmers, tech, you know, guys of their age. And he's reading this biography of Michael Faraday, who was an inventor from the generation before. And he's reading the biography of Faraday. His roommate goes to bed. His roommate wakes up in the morning, and Edison is just finishing the bio- he stayed up all night reading this biography of Michael Faraday. Slams shut the biography, throws it on the table, and says, "Faraday accomplished so much. I am already 21 years old. I might live to be 50. Can I accomplish as much as he did? I am going to hustle." That's what he says, "I'm going to hustle." I love that line. And so he really felt this pain 'cause he recognized someone who was like him, Faraday, who had accomplished so much more than he had. And so he wanted to compete with him across the generations. And you see that same story play out with Julius Caesar looking at, uh, at Alexander the Great. You see it with Rockefeller, uh, and kinda the generation that came before. Amos Lawrence was the first person that he really aspires to be like. And so it's this very unique source of inspiration, zeal, of, of seeing someone who came before you and wanting to compete with them because they accomplished so much. But it's very common among the great achievers across all domains.

   7. DSDavid Senra2:43

      Yeah, I love the fact that anytime you read biographies of Edison, he's obsessed with the word hustle.

   8. BWBen Wilson2:48

      Yeah.

   9. DSDavid Senra2:48

      Uh, when he invented the phonograph, he was talking to some guy, and the guy's like, "Hey, if you could hear any historical figure's voice, you know, that's long since dead, who would you choose?" And the guy asking the question, he's like, "Well, I would choose Jesus." And Edison's like, "I would choose Napoleon." And he's like, "Why Napoleon?" He goes, "I like the hustler" [laughs]

   10. BWBen Wilson3:03

       I like a hustler, yeah [laughs]

   11. DSDavid Senra3:06

       [laughs]

   12. BWBen Wilson3:06

       Yeah.

   13. DSDavid Senra3:06

       So what are some other examples of zeal? Like, are-- How do you th- how do you think about, like, the work that you do personally? 'Cause you're studying people with zeal. I guess we should back up and, and give some people some context. I, I've been telling people for years that I think you're one of the best podcasters in the world. How to Take Over the World is another solo history podcast. I think there's a lot of overlap between the work that you did, uh, with How to Take Over the World and the work that I did with Founders. And so we wind up, you know, studying a lot of the same people, reading a lot of the same books. We've been texting back and forth for years about book recommendations. But, like, I understand the presence of zeal in these historical figures. I, I see it just like you do, uh, when I read these books. But, like, how do you think about in your own life, then?

   14. BWBen Wilson3:46

       Well, two things. I mean, I, I think I've made it sort of my life mission to help people with that, right? Because you need to find people who are like you in character in order to have that sort of connection. So, for example, if I read about Leonardo da Vinci, amazing story. I love it. I can learn a lot, but fundamentally, I don't feel that sense of zeal because his brain is so different from mine. It's like studying an alien. I could just never do what he did. And so by presenting all these different stories to people that I do in How to Take Over the World, I'm hoping that, you know, you can listen to those, and some of those people, you think, "Okay, cool, interesting, but not really for me." But you find one of those stories that just resonates deep in your heart and soul and gives you that moment of, "No, that person is like me. I could accomplish what they did, but I haven't yet." And it gives you that pain and that sort of motivation to start on that journey. That's how I think about that process.

   15. DSDavid Senra4:40

       So wait, wait. If you don't identify with da Vinci, who do you identify with?

   16. BWBen Wilson4:43

       So someone like Walt Disney, for example. I read that story, and I think, "Ooh, I could accomplish something like that." Like, that's someone who is, uh, maybe not exactly. Like, he's obviously an, an enormously talented person, but that's someone who I feel like their personality is more similar to mine, and so it does give me a little bit more of that feeling.

   17. DSDavid Senra5:01

       Tell me more about how you-- the similarities in personality between you and Walt.

   18. BWBen Wilson5:05

       Walt was a very, uh, creative person, of course. That's the first thing that anyone knows about Walt Disney. But this is someone who created empires of the mind, who was a, a creative leader who got people to buy into a certain aesthetic vision. And, uh, I think on some level, I have that ability to do that. One of the most famous things about my podcast is the intro music that people know. They get very excited about it. And I was able to do that, uh, myself just messing around in GarageBand.

   19. DSDavid Senra5:34

       I'm very anti-podcast intro.

   20. BWBen Wilson5:37

       I know you are, yeah.

   21. DSDavid Senra5:37

       'Cause I'm always just like-- I was just like, "Well, we're..." Like, it's always, like, the worst version of something. Like, I, I think about what, um, back in the, uh, the-- when, when Steve Jobs came back to Apple. I know you've done a ton of episodes on, on Steve Jobs, too. And Netbooks were really, really popular, and they were pressuring Steve. And even, like, his friend Larry Ellis was like, "Why aren't you building Netbooks?" And he's like-- "Netbooks." And he goes, "'Cause they're just shitty laptops [laughs] ."

   22. BWBen Wilson5:59

       [laughs]

   23. DSDavid Senra5:59

       And he-- so he said, instead of being a, in his words, instead of taking resources and building a shitty laptop, a product that shouldn't exist, he redirected them, and they wind up inventing the iPad. And, like, I thought that shift was, like, very interesting. So that's the way I feel about mu- like, intro music for podcasts. Yours is the lone example where I'm like, "This is excellent." I didn't know till just now that you were the one that made that.

   24. BWBen Wilson6:18

       Yeah. I, in a fit of inspiration. And it's funny because people early on tried to hire me to make intro music for other podcasts.

   25. DSDavid Senra6:27

       [laughs]

   26. BWBen Wilson6:27

       And I just couldn't do it. It was really just 60 minutes of magic. I mean, that's how long it took me. I kinda figured out the beat, I figured out the vocal tone that I liked, I grabbed a few quotes, and boom, it was done in a flash. It was just like one of those magical moments of inspiration. And, uh, anyway, so, so yeah, Walt was a creative, someone who built empires of the mind. When I think about someone like da Vinci in that, like, actual artistic skill, 'cause Walt was an okay artist-

   27. DSDavid Senra6:59

       He was not a great animator

   28. BWBen Wilson7:00

       ... illustrator, but he was not a great animator.

   29. DSDavid Senra7:02

       Yeah.

   30. BWBen Wilson7:02

       But da Vinci was. He's, uh, exceptional. He just had that kinda eye-hand eye coordination that I guess I lack, and just the ability to perceive things in a certain way that I just don't think I see the world the way that, that he does. And his curiosity goes in a different direction. Walt was also an extremely curious person, but he was curious about things that never were, right? About things that could be created. Da Vinci was, uh, curious about things as they are in the world, and I think I lean more toward that, uh, Walt Disney model of things as they could be and never have been before.
2. 55:51 – 1:11:17

   Living like you're dying. Ben on facing cancer.

   1. DSDavid Senra55:51

      So that, I think, is a perfect time or spot to transition into, like, the second thing that I want to talk to you about, which is, I've said, I think, a few times in this episode, like, you're one of my favorite podcasters. I've-- my life has greatly benefited from your work, and I think you're world-class at what you do. And I think I've told you this even before you thought there was a business here, and I remember these conversations we were having about like, "Hey, ditch the agency. Stop producing," like doing all this other stuff, right? I remember that one night when we were in Austin, it was me, you, and Cliff Weitzman. Do you remember, do you remember this conversation?

   2. BWBen Wilson56:21

      Yeah.

   3. DSDavid Senra56:21

      And essentially, me, you, and Cliff talked about your business and your podcast for like probably ninety minutes because both Cliff and I were like super fans of your work, and we're just like, "Man, if you just focus, like you have the thing. You've already done the difficult thing." And so, you know, obviously called you, uh, I'll give some background here. I was about to record with Mickey Maalka. I was in the Bay Area and, you know, I, I try to sell ads for you all the time. I don't get any money off of it. Just do it 'cause I, I love you and I want, like, you to succeed. And I remember like, "Hey, uh, Ben, I only got like sixty seconds. I'm about to record, but do you have any-- uh, I have a good partner for you, I think. Do you have any ad inventory?" And you're like, "Uh, well, something's going on with the podcast I should, you know, I need to te-tell you about." And then I was like, "All right. Just tell me now." And he's like, "You know, I don't want, uh, to like ruin your recording." And I was like, "Ben, what the fuck is going on?" And you're like, "I have cancer." And I was like, "Oh, shit." And then I was like, "I'm gonna call you back and call you back when I'm done." And then we, we obviously talked about it, and then you did what I think is some-- one of the most profound episodes I've ever heard, which is on how to take over the world feed, and it's called The Cancer Episode. And you lay out like what you're going through right now, and then your, your perspective on this. It's just like, I don't know a word to say. It's remarkable. So can you just tell us like what's going on right now in your life, and then what's going on in your mind as you go through this experience?

   4. BWBen Wilson57:48

      Yeah. Yeah. So, um, uh, you know, I was feeling terrible. I was feeling really bad, and I went in and saw a doctor, and it was just this primary care doctor. I didn't even have a doctor 'cause I don't like to go see the doctor, so I met this woman for the first time. And sh-- I say, "You know, I got all this stuff going on. I'm losing weight. I can't really explain it." And, uh, she starts poking around in my body, and she pokes me and says, "What's that?" And I said, "I don't know."

   5. DSDavid Senra58:15

      Where did she poke you at?

   6. BWBen Wilson58:17

      Right here, right in my liver. And, uh, she said, "You need to, you need to go get scanned right away." And, uh, so I got scanned, and, uh, I had a lot of cancer, [chuckles] like a lot of cancer. The point some of these oncologists were like, "How did you just keep functioning normally? How did you not come see a doctor earlier?"

   7. DSDavid Senra58:37

      What was your answer to that question?

   8. BWBen Wilson58:40

      Everything in my life, you get aches and pains, and they all go away. I had always gotten better. You know what I mean? My back hurts. Okay. Rest a little bit. It'll get better. And so yeah, stuff had started hurting, but I was getting older, and I just thought stuff would get better. And it was really only after months that I thought, "This is really not normal." And, uh, so that's why. That's why I hadn't gone in earlier. I think that's true of a lot of men, by the way. So, you know, go get checked out if, uh, if something feels off.

   9. DSDavid Senra59:14

      Didn't you say that you were initially reluctant to go to the doctor and then you were putting your symptoms into Claude?

   10. BWBen Wilson59:23

       Yes. Um, yeah, I still, like, I still was putting it off even as things were getting worse, and I put my symptoms into Claude, and Claude sort of said, "This isn't the kind of thing like go in next week when you have a chance. This is the kind of thing like go in right now. If you can't be seen right now, go to an emergency room." And Claude was right. So if I, if I'd been untreated, if I lived in a world where there were no cancer treatments, I probably would have been dead within a few months. It was really, really bad. I, I lost forty pounds, so things were, were very bad. And, uh, the initial prognosis was one year. Uh, and if you go and look up the survival statistics for the type of cancer I had and the amount of spread that I had, the five-year survival rate is zero percent. So [chuckles] and this is all stuff I'm reading, and it's, it's very sobering. Um, having said that, the amount of new treatments that are coming out for all sorts of different types of cancers is remarkable. I mean, we live in a really remarkable age. And so, uh, I hope not to die in the next five years. I have to like kind of live in two different worlds. One being I have to prepare, I have to prepare my family that I might not be here, but at the same time, I've also got to live like I've got my entire life in front of me because that also might be the case. And, um, so that's, that's where I've been, is trying to like live two lives at once. One in which I die sometime in the next year, and one in which I've got twenty years.

   11. DSDavid Senra1:01:01

       What kind of cancer do you have?

   12. BWBen Wilson1:01:03

       It's called neuroendocrine, uh, primary, uh, n-neuroendocrine carcinoma, stage four, metastatic. So that just means neuroendocrine means the cells that form, uh, your, your endocrine system, so that's kinda your hormones, as well as, uh, your neurological system, so that's like your nerves. So it's those types of cells. It's very similar. It's related to, um, small cell, like smokers cancer, small cell lung cancer. Um, but mine started in the lungs as like a sort of very not aggressive cancer and then at some point it spread to my liver, and at that point it became metastatic. And, uh, it, it transformed and mutated and became very aggressive.

   13. DSDavid Senra1:01:47

       Where has it spread to?

   14. BWBen Wilson1:01:49

       The liver is the main thing, and then the lungs and the spine and, and my brain. The brain is maybe the biggest issue right now that we're trying to work with.

   15. DSDavid Senra1:01:59

       And on the episode you were talking about some kind of therapies and drugs that you're trying to do. What have you done so far?

   16. BWBen Wilson1:02:04

       So far I've just done chemo, and I finished chemotherapy for now, which is excellent. It feels great to be done. And now I'm starting on a drug called tarlatamab, which is, uh, call, we call our second line. So, uh, the chemo did a good job of pushing back some of my cancer. I feel way better than I did at the beginning of this and, uh, now we're just gonna see if we can keep that going. And if tarlatamab works for me, then, uh, I've got great prospects. And if it doesn't, then, uh, we gotta try and figure out something else in a hurry.

   17. DSDavid Senra1:02:35

       I don't wanna poke and prod you and make you uncomfortable, but you have four small kids. If there's anything that anybody in the audience can do to help you, we just, I wanna give them as much detail as possible and surface area to hopefully find some lucky thing for us, for you and your wife and your kids. So if you can describe like the drug that you're on, we are on the phone two days a-ago about this. Like, what is some of the prospects? What are the good news? Because essentially like you're just, we just need to buy you more time.

   18. BWBen Wilson1:03:02

       Yeah.

   19. DSDavid Senra1:03:03

       Because there's just way more, whether it's AI, whether it's just immunotherapy, whether it's just new drugs, like we just need to buy more years is what we're trying to do. So explain what's going on with this new drug.

   20. BWBen Wilson1:03:14

       Yeah. So, um, so tarlatamab is, uh, it's technically not an immunotherapy, but it's very similar to an immunotherapy. And, um, you know, the, the, the encouraging news is tarlatamab was, uh, initially approved for people with small cell lung cancer, and there it helped extend life expectancies by like six months to a year, which is still, you know, a good time that you would take. Um, but there is a certain subset of people who have my type of cancer who have only been on the drug for two years, and they've been on it for two years, and it's working, and that's all we know. It's only been two years, so maybe they're, maybe it's gonna stop working any moment now, but maybe not. So that's the hope that we have right now. But the assumption that I'm trying to make is that this will last for a certain amount of time, this drug tarlatamab, and so then we've got to find something else. Every cancer is unique. It's its own special snowflake, and it's got these, these different receptors, you know, different markers. And so one that I have is called SMARCA or SMARCA4, and so that's one where there's not a lot of great therapies yet, but there are a lot of clinical trials. And so that's maybe the next thing that we're looking at is if tarlatamab stops working for me, then we can go in some of these trials that's like the next thing that we can attack with this cancer. So I'm just about to start this new drug, and hopefully it can continue to keep things at bay.

   21. DSDavid Senra1:04:50

       Is that covered under insurance? How does this work? Is it in short supply?

   22. BWBen Wilson1:04:54

       So it initially was not covered under my insurance, but they just had a new study that, um, they got a positive indication for, like just b- this month. And so now it is going to be covered, which is great news. And so now the next thing that we're looking at is can we enhance this with a, um, custom mRNA vaccine to make it more effective? That's sort of right now the cutting edge of cancer treatment and, uh, and that's what we're looking at, at spending money on right now.

   23. DSDavid Senra1:05:33

       Do you wanna talk about some of the same stuff you, you shared it's in terms of like your outlook? Like, you're a man of faith.

   24. BWBen Wilson1:05:42

       Yeah.

   25. DSDavid Senra1:05:43

       I don't have the same faith that you have. I have no idea what happens after, you know, somebody dies. But I was just, again, I think that one of the, that episode you made is one of the most profound podcast episodes ever created. I can't imagine what you're going through 'cause your kids are all five and under, right? You, you said in that episode where it's like, I think it was the, the quote maybe by Nietzsche, it's like, "If I could live my life over again the same exact way, I would like pick the same life." So like you're a good man. I've been telling everybody this, like much better person than I am for sure. You, you found, I think, something you love to do. You have this just beautiful family. You have this faith. You have all these friends. You have everything that you wanted in life and that might be th-th-that, that, that future like deprived from you, and yet you're not like, the message you're putting out there is not like, oh, pity or woe is me, or I'm all sad. It's like almost unbelievably positive, for lack of a better description.

   26. BWBen Wilson1:06:41

       I, I, I really, I just, I really believe that, especially when you study history and you study, um, you know, I think about Napoleon. He's fighting in, in France in the war of the third or fourth coalition or whatever, and his men, he, he, his armies keep getting wiped out. And so by the end they are just new conscripts. As soon as they can get them, they put them on a horse and they send them out to the battlefield. And, uh, they've got, they call them like, um, children running around on chickens 'cause it's like baby, baby kids. It's like sixteen and fifteen-year-olds riding around on these like new horses that aren't even trained for combat. And so you have all these like sixteen and fifteen-year-olds dying in war. You read about the amount of disease. It's like, look If, if I go next year, you can't study history for long and just not realize I've had an amazing life. I really have. I, I would choose this life over again. It's been great. I have a wife who I love. I have great kids, four kids who I, I really love. I found my vocation, my calling in life. Like, I wake up every day excited about what I get to do. That was not the beginning of my career. You know, I have worked-- It's, you know, working consulting is not exactly the coal mines, but, like, I didn't, I didn't love it, you know? And I love-- And, and so I've got to spend years doing the thing that I love. S-so life ends a little bit early maybe. If it does, that doesn't mean I ha-I have this, like, very unfortunate life. I still feel like I've had a very fortunate life. And so, you know, context. When I'm going through pain, like, it's not always easy, and I have bad moments. Like, I think people can get the wrong impression from reading or from watching that podcast. Like, for other people who are going through cancer or going through disease, like, you guys know, you have moments, okay? But that's okay. I just try and remember that, like, for the most part, I've had a very charmed life, and I, I really believe that to be the case.

   27. DSDavid Senra1:08:55

       Listen, man, I admire you. I'm glad we're friends. I really love your work. I'm really glad you chose to do this with me. I know we were thinking about timing and, like, you know, I was, uh, we, I didn't want you to be, like, reluctant of it because I do think, like, there's a bunch of positive externalities and, and, like, unpredictable externalities that are gonna come out of this conversation. I would just say, like, in closing, like, if anybody's hearing this and we could do anything, whether you have resources, drugs, anything that we've-- that could help Ben and his family, please get in touch. We'll leave contact information in the show notes. We'll leave Ben's email address, if you're cool with that, in the show notes as well. But, like, you're a good dude. You got a bad hand, and, like, I wanna do anything I can to help you. Thanks for taking the time.

   28. BWBen Wilson1:09:38

       Thank you. Well, I, I, c- if I can end with one more thing, which is to say, um, you know, I am alive in, you know, at least in some part to, due to the influence of a man named Jon Huntsman, who was a billionaire from Utah, who decided the thing that he wanted to do with his money was found a world-class cancer institute in Utah. And I tried going through the medical system outside of that, and then I got put in this world-class cancer institute, and I've had remarkable care since then. People know me a-and feel like they know me because of the podcast, and people have been remarkably generous. But when you're in this situation, you just can't help but think of all the people who are probably just as good of people as I do, who don't have the type of resources, don't have the type of audience that I have. And so, um, I guess I would also just like to put in a plug for, like, everyone else. Like, I do have a lot of resources, and so if you know someone else in your life who could maybe use it more than me, like, also be thinking about them. Think about donating to Huntsman Cancer Institute or other, you know, cancer research and stuff like that, so other people can be helped out as well. I, like, I would really appreciate it.

   29. DSDavid Senra1:10:51

       This is not an act. This is how he's been since I've known him. Thanks, Ben.

   30. BWBen Wilson1:10:53

       All right. Thanks, David.

Episode duration: 1:11:17