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10 Life-changing Lessons From The Longest Ever Study On Human Happiness! Dr. Robert Waldinger | E246

In this new episode Steven sits down with the American psychiatrist and Director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, Robert Waldinger. Topics: 0:00 Intro 01:40 Who are you & what mission are you on? 04:04 The longest ever human study 10:38 How has this study changed you? 16:15 What have humans got wrong about happiness? 27:20 How do we gain discipline? 29:54 The importance of romantic relationships 37:07 What are the negative aspects of being lonely? 43:22 What makes a successful relationship? 47:48 Why we’re all spending our time wrong 54:22 What leads to happiness at work? 01:04:19 Constant themes you see in your patients 01:08:24 Characteristics of someone that can change 01:11:52 A framework to perfectly use your time 01:15:07 What do you get wrong about life? 01:16:52 How do we make our society happier? 01:25:21 The last guest’s question 01:26:38 Closing positive message Follow Robert: Twitter: https://bit.ly/44KaLfD Join this channel to get access to perks: https://bit.ly/3Dpmgx5 Follow:  Instagram: http://bit.ly/3nIkGAZ Twitter: http://bit.ly/3ztHuHm Linkedin: http://bit.ly/3ZFGUku Telegram: http://bit.ly/3nJYxST Follow me:  Instagram: http://bit.ly/3nIkGAZ Twitter: http://bit.ly/3ztHuHm Linkedin: https://bit.ly/41Fl95Q Telegram: http://bit.ly/3nJYxST Sponsors:  Bluejeans: https://g2ul0.app.link/NCgpGjVNKsb Huel: https://g2ul0.app.link/G4RjcdKNKsb

Steven BartletthostDr. Robert Waldingerguest
May 11, 20231h 30mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:40

    Intro

    1. SB

      I saw a video that you made. It punched me in the face. (dramatic music)

    2. RW

      The reason why my TED Talk went viral was because- Dr. Robert Waldinger-

    3. SB

      A Harvard psychiatrist and director of-

    4. RW

      The longest study ever done on what makes humans live happy or unhappy lives.

    5. SB

      This TED Talk is one of the most viewed of all time. (dramatic music)

    6. RW

      ... for 85 years. We've tracked the lives of 724 families through their entire adult lives, looking at mental health, physical health, to see what really keeps people happy and healthy.

    7. SB

      Some of the participants donated their brains.

    8. RW

      They have. We know so much about them in life, and now we get to examine their brains. The most surprising finding in the study was that it's our relationships that keep us healthier and happier. There is research (laughs) that shows that actually people who are married, men live 12 years longer and women live seven years longer. That said, it's, it's not the marriage license. It's about... (dramatic music) Starting in the 1950s, we stopped investing in other people. Being lonely is as dangerous to your health as smoking half a pack of cigarettes a day. Isolation can break down your coronary arteries, your joints. The brain declines sooner. My mission now is gonna be to bring this science that we've worked so hard to develop and bring it to people in ways that they can use.

    9. SB

      Looking at that research, what are the factors that made those relationships more successful?

    10. RW

      Well, the most surprising finding in the study was that- (dramatic music)

    11. SB

      Would you like to go for dinner with me and my guests here on the Diary of a CEO? We are holding dinner parties all around the world

  2. 1:40 – 4:04

    Who are you & what mission are you on?

    1. SB

      over the coming months, and our subscribers on this YouTube channel are invited. We're inviting 20 subscribers to every dinner. So, if you'd like to come for dinner with me and my guests here on the Diary of a CEO, I have a favor to ask you. All you've got to do is hit the subscribe button. And I hope to see you at dinner somewhere around the world very soon. (upbeat music) Robert, who are you? And what is the mission that you're on?

    2. RW

      I am a psychiatrist. I am, uh, a married father of two grown sons. I'm a Zen priest, and I'm a researcher. And the mission that I'm on is to relieve the suffering that's optional in the world. That's the vow I took as a Zen priest.

    3. SB

      What is that optional suffering you're referring to?

    4. RW

      Well, there's some suffering that's not optional, right? There's pain. There's th- there's so many things that we can't control that hurt, that, that we suffer from. But then there's optional suffering. There are all the, the stories we tell ourselves about, about things that turn out not to be true, things that I worry about that turn out to amount to nothing. Um, a- uh, Mark Twain had a wonderful quote that I love. He said, "Some of the worst things in my life never happened." And, and that's the optional suffering that we're talking about, the, all the ways that we imagine things that make us suffer a great deal.

    5. SB

      So let's go down those two paths, psychiatrist and Zen priest. What does it mean to be a psychiatrist? What does that mean practically in terms of your work?

    6. RW

      It means working with people who are struggling with mental illnesses, with conditions for which we have help. And some of the help is medication. Some of the help is talk therapy. Um, I became fascinated by how the mind works. That was what was most exciting for me when I was a medical student, and I realized that it was gonna keep me interested

  3. 4:04 – 10:38

    The longest ever human study

    1. RW

      most of my career. And it has, because everybody's so different. I mean, I realize that if you treat one case of high blood pressure, you sorta know what the next one's gonna look like. But when you talk to a new person, it's never the same as the person you talked to last week. So being a psychiatrist, for me, is getting to take deep dives into people's life experience.

    2. SB

      There's a, there's a through line here to the third pillar of, um, what I find so absolutely fascinating about you, and it's also the thing that introduced me to you many years ago. I was, um, a young man who was incredibly, I would say, I would say, addicted to some degree to work. I was pursuing money at all costs. Um, I was that sort of typical Millennial, I think you've referenced in the book, that had his priorities in all the wrong orders. Particularly at that point, I'd sacrificed so many things. The stuff that you write about that makes life so meaningful, presence, I had... You know, my happiness was off somewhere in the future-

    3. RW

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... behind some future imaginary goal.

    5. RW

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      And I was sat in a room in Manchester. I think I was in the region of, I'm gonna say, somewhere between 18 and 20 years old. And then I saw a video that you had made, a TED Talk you had done. It's one of the most watched TED Talks of all time, and it was about, it was the longest study on happiness ever done. It was the Harvard Study of Adult Development, I think it's called. And it, it punched me in the face. And it punched me-

    7. RW

      Wow.

    8. SB

      ... in the face because... And I've never forgotten it, and I've talked about it frequently, you know, every quarter or every couple of months since then. But it punched me in the face 'cause it made me confront something that I think I knew at some deeper level, I was maybe getting wrong, and that was the nature of what really makes us happy as humans.

    9. RW

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      Um, can you tell me about the Harvard Study of Adult Development, what, what the aim of it was, and how you in particular got involved with it?

    11. RW

      Sure. Um-The study is the longest study of human life that's ever been done, as far as we know, of the same people going through their entire adult lives. That's what so rare about it. Most research is snapshots in the moment or over two weeks or a month. So this is over 85 years, 724 families. It was started in 1938. It was started as two studies that actually didn't know about each other. One was a study of Harvard College students, 19-year-olds, young men who were thought by the deans to be fine, upstanding specimens, and this was gonna be a study of normal development from adolescence into young adulthood. I mean, now we smile because, you know, if you want to study normal development, you study all white males from Harvard? You don't do that. It's so politically incorrect. But at that time, that's what they were doing. And the other study was started at Harvard Law School by a law professor and his wife, a social worker, who were interested in juvenile delinquency, and they were particularly interested in how some children from really troubled backgrounds managed to stay out of trouble and stay on good developmental paths, like how -- how could that be? What were the conditions that allowed these young people to thrive? So they chose boys from the city of Boston in 1938 whose families were known to, on average, five social service agencies for domestic violence, parental mental illness, physical illness, and they studied all those boys, again looking at what makes people thrive. And so both of these studies were studies of good, normal development instead of studies of what goes wrong. Most of what we study is what goes wrong so that we can help people. So these were radical in that sense. Um, and then nobody expected the studies to last more than five or at the most 10 years, and the founders of the study would never have dreamed that you and I would be talking about this study today and the fact that we're still collecting data even as we speak from the children of all of these original 724 families.

    12. SB

      Wow. You're still collecting data from the children of the participants?

    13. RW

      Yes.

    14. SB

      And are the founders of this study still alive?

    15. RW

      Oh, no. They're long gone. Um, I'm the fourth director. Um...

    16. SB

      Wow.

    17. RW

      And the third director was my teacher when I was a medical student. He lectured to my class about this study of men who were then in their 50s, and I thought, "This is amazing." And then about 15 years later, he took me out to lunch one day and said, "How would you like to inherit this study?" And I was flabbergasted but very excited to be able to do it.

    18. SB

      What was the study aiming to -- to answer?

    19. RW

      It was looking at the big domains of life. It was looking at mental health, physical health, work life, and relationships, and what the study has done is looked at all of those j- same domains over and over again year after year for 85 years. What's exciting for me about it is that we've changed our methods. So initially there were interviews and medical exams and people went to their homes and talked to their parents. Well, now we draw blood for DNA. I mean, DNA wasn't even imagined in 1938. We put people into MRI scanners and watch their brains light up when we show them different kinds of images, and, you know, that was, that would have been science fiction to scientists in 1938. So what I love is we're studying the same subjects, but we're studying them using very different methods over time.

    20. SB

      I read that some of the participants of the study that have passed away have donated their brains.

    21. RW

      They have. We have about 30 brains sitting on shelves in a laboratory at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston and -- and what's rare about them, most brains

  4. 10:38 – 16:15

    How has this study changed you?

    1. RW

      are collected because there was a big problem in life, for example, dementia or a brain tumor or something. These are normal brains, and so what's rare is that these are brains about which we know what their life was like when they were 20 years old, when they were 30 years old. Uh, we know so much about them in life and now we get to examine their brains.

    2. SB

      So this study, you became the director of it. Um, let's start top -- top level then. How did y- this study sets out to answer some of the big questions in life, the most important things about what makes us happy, what keeps us healthy, socially healthy, physically healthy. You've got the longest study of -- of humans that anyone thinks has ever been done. You've been studying them for decades upon decades. Looking at that research and being a first party to all of that -- that information, how has it changed you?

    3. RW

      It's very much made me take care of my own relationships. So because the biggest, most surprising finding in the study was that it's our relationships that keep us healthier and happier... You know, I'm a Harvard professor. I could work non-stop until I drop dead. I mean, that's just the way academia works. And what I realized was particularly once my kids weren't there pulling me away to go take them somewhere or do something with them, that I could just work all the time, and so what I've...... started doing is to be much more intentional about calling my friends, about saying, "Let's go for a walk. Let's go out to dinner. Let's make sure we get together." I never would have done that before, particularly as a man. I think women are much better. My wife is much better at calling friends on the phone, at making sure they get together. I had to teach myself to do that. I had to make myself do it. I had to take my own medicine, if you will, based on what I was studying in my work life.

    4. SB

      What do we, what do we get wrong about the, the subject matter of happiness? Like, if, if you were to ask these participants what they thought would cause happiness in their lives, or you were to ask, I don't know, a millennial-

    5. RW

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      ... what are the answers that we say and how wrong are we? And are we good at knowing? Someone asked me this yesterday at an event. They put their hand up and they said... We were talking about remote working and this whole change, disruption that's happened in the workplace. And they s- put their hand up, I think they were a CEO, and they said, "Do my employees actually know what they want?" And I, and it was a really curious question. I ended up answering, and this is maybe a little bit controversial, but I ended up answering that most of us don't know what we want in most facets of our life.

    7. RW

      Yes. Yes, and we're bad at knowing what's gonna make us happy. I'll give you an example. And it's in the book. Um, there was a study in the city of Chicago where they were, uh, studying commuters, people who were about to get on the train and take the train to work, like they did every day. And so, they, they took a random sample of people in one group, and they were assigned to do what they always do on the train. It could've been listening to music or reading the news on their phone, whatever they did. The other group randomly was assigned to talk to a stranger on the train, which none of them had ever done. And they asked them beforehand, "How much do you think you're gonna like this assignment we've just given you?" And the people who were assigned to talk to strangers said, "I'm not going to enjoy this." Afterwards, after they completed their assignments, the people who had talked to strangers were much happier than the people who had done their usual, staying on their phones or reading the newspaper. So, it's an example of how we're not so good at knowing what's gonna make us happy. And particularly when it comes to connecting with each other, that there's something about these kind of, uh, small conversations that we can have with strangers or even with someone we barely know that turn out to be very energizing more of the time than not. But we're always afraid. We're afraid someone's gonna think we're strange if we strike up a conversation or we're gonna s- get stuck talking to someone who, who we don't like. Um, but what we find is that, that the culture gives us these messages about what will make us happy that turn out not to be the truth. Um, a lot of the messages are about consumerism. You know, we're told, "If you buy this car, you're gonna be happy. If you, you know, if you serve this brand of pasta, you're gonna have blissful family dinners." You know, and, uh, and even though we sort of know that this isn't the truth, the, the advertisements really do inculcate this sense that if we consume the right things, that we'll, we'll be happy. And what we know from, from our research and many other studies is that's just not so, um, and that these, these connections with each other actually do make us happy. I mean, for example, you and I are talking now, and your questions and your interest in my work is actually energizing for me. It's actually making me happier than when I walked in the door today.

    8. SB

      Why?

    9. RW

      I think there's something about wanting to be seen. Like you're actually saying, "I wanna know you. I wanna know what's going on with you." And, and that there's something about that that, that makes us feel like we belong, that makes us feel like we're connected.

  5. 16:15 – 27:20

    What have humans got wrong about happiness?

    1. RW

      And so, what we notice and, and what we talk about in the book is this idea that, uh, that when, when we actually are curious about another person, it's giving them a gift. It's giving them a way to be seen, a way to tell about themselves, that we all really yearn for at some level, or almost all of us do. And so, it's something we can give to each other every day.

    2. SB

      When you compare and contrast the two lists, list A, which says what we think we want, and B, what your study on happiness has shown that actually leads to happiness, however we define it, what other things, just in order of, that we're most wrong about?

    3. RW

      Probably the three big ones we're most wrong about, fame-

    4. SB

      Fame, yeah.

    5. RW

      ... and wealth-

    6. SB

      Yeah.

    7. RW

      ... and badges of achievement. If I win this prize, right, uh, if I, if I get to be CEO.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RW

      That kind of thing. Um, and because the culture tells us all day long that these will make us happy and because they're measurable. I think one other thing, you know, if you think about fame, I mean, it's likes. It's how many downloads of a podcast. It's how many people read a book, right? And it's measurable. It's quantifiable. Um, wealth, of course, is quantifiable and achievement. But what we know is that those things don't do it. Now, meaningful work can make us happy, can be fulfilling. That's different from getting the prize, getting the badge. Um, by contrast, you can't measure relationships. They're, they're kind of messy and, you know, complicated.

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. RW

      And, and, and they're often full of ups and downs and conflicts. Um, and so, so you, you can't quantify it. You can't hold onto it. It's always changing. And so, by contrast, these, these relationships that actually turn out to make us happy-... are not, you can't get your hands around them as easily as you can, you can get your hands around these, these, these things you can kind of grab for, these shiny brass objects you can go for.

    12. SB

      So why do we, why do we, you know, outside of the media influence, why are we, do we have a s- a sort of proclivity to strive for things like fame? Is there like an evolutionary basis for wanting to be famous or rich or high status, I guess?

    13. RW

      Could I get into zen a little bit?

    14. SB

      Of course you can. Please.

    15. RW

      Okay. There's a writer named David Loy, L-O-Y, who writes about this, and, and I think he's really onto something. That in zen philosophy that if you really look for the self, if you sit down on a meditation cushion and you look f- and I look for Bob, like who's Bob? I can't find him. I can't find a me anywhere. I can find a swirl of thoughts and ever-changing sensations coming from my body and, but I can't really find a fixed thing that I call Bob. And that it, and that what David Loy argues is that all of us at some level know this, that there isn't really a fixed self that's gonna go on through time and that's gonna last after I die. And that it's, at some level, scary to know that, right? And what David Loy argues is that many of us are grabbing for things like wealth and fame and dominating the Earth and dominating each other in this kind of wish to make ourselves feel more real, more permanent, more fixed, um, like we really exist. And I think he's right. I think at some, uh, think about all the ways, you know, I think about all the ways I've been preoccupied with, you know, "Am I gonna r- be remembered when I'm gone?" Well, I'm probably not. (laughs) You know, 50 years from now, nobody's gonna really remember who I was. And if I really let that sink into my bones, that's scary. And so I'd, I'd rather write a book with my name on it. I'd rather, you know, endow a building that'll keep my name on it for a while until the building falls down, do something that makes me last longer, that makes the, the Bob self feel more real. So that's the, that's the deep zen dive that I didn't mean to take you on, but, but that's, I think, for me, the most helpful explanation at why we all, myself included, get preoccupied why these, by these badges of achievement, if you will.

    16. SB

      With that comes a ton of suffering, right? The-

    17. RW

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      ... the desire to be permanent-

    19. RW

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      ... and significant.

    21. RW

      And to compare ourselves because with that comes comparison. And we know that when we compare ourselves to others more frequently during the day, we are less happy.

    22. SB

      Even if it's a positive comparison-

    23. RW

      E-

    24. SB

      ... i.e. we're doing a downward comparison.

    25. RW

      Even it's a, even if it's a positive comparison, because there's always the threat of falling short.

    26. SB

      Mm-hmm. You're deciding to play a game-

    27. RW

      Yeah.

    28. SB

      ... which is, yeah, it's like a psychological decision to play a game, which sometimes you'll win, but sometimes you'll, you'll lose.

    29. RW

      Exactly.

    30. SB

      So it's better not to play the game of comparison altogether.

  6. 27:20 – 29:54

    How do we gain discipline?

    1. RW

      right? So basically, by and large, we're trying to get rid of some of the less pleasant experiences of our momentary life. But they'll pass all by themselves if you just pay attention.

    2. SB

      Does that require this thing called discipline?

    3. RW

      Yeah, it does. (laughs) It be- it becomes watching and not grabbing on for the next thing to make my feeling go away.

    4. SB

      I was, um, I was reading through the chapter in your book about time and attention and death, um-

    5. RW

      Cheery, right? (laughs)

    6. SB

      Yeah. But n- but it's one of the subject matters that I'm really compelled by. And I- I've actually been writing a lot in my upcoming book about the topic of death.

    7. RW

      Ah.

    8. SB

      And the order in which I wrote was, um, I started by talking about time and- and death, 'cause I think they're sort of intrinsically linked.

    9. RW

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      To understand the importance of time, you need to understand that you are gonna die, which I don't think many humans really understand.

    11. RW

      That's right.

    12. SB

      Uh, and then I was gonna deliver some time management techniques in my book, because I thought, "Right, I've- I've- I've set up the conversation that time is important, so now I'll give the reader some time management techniques." I researched all the time management techniques. I looked at the ones that I use. And I realized there was thousands of them. Now, there's thousands of them for the same reasons that there are thousands of fad diets, because none of them work.

    13. RW

      Yeah.

    14. SB

      Unless you have this thing called discipline.

    15. RW

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      And this is what, you know, as a Zen priest, you know, it's all well and good knowing the techniques about meditation, but if you can't have the restraint to not get on Uber Eats at 1:00 AM in the morning and order that Kit Kat-

    17. RW

      Right.

    18. SB

      ... because you don't have the discipline, it doesn't matter. I can know it, but doing it is another thing.

    19. RW

      Right.

    20. SB

      My question is about discipline. H- how- how does one... even if you're looking at your own life, where does one find that discipline?

    21. RW

      You know, often, it's- it's not the Nancy Reagan strategy of just say no, right?

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. RW

      You know, if you think about that, that discipline can't just involve saying no. It has to involve having something to turn toward.

    24. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. RW

      And I think that's where we may be able to help each other find things. So, you know, if you, if you don't wanna order the Kit Kat on Uber Eats, right? What could you do instead that- that might help, that might feel okay? Um, and I think it's the... You know, if- if we think about Alcoholics Anonymous, the- one of the reasons why it works is it doesn't just say, "Don't drink." It gives you a whole social network of people to support you, and it gives you activities to do and people to be with

  7. 29:54 – 37:07

    The importance of romantic relationships

    1. RW

      every hour of the day, right? And so, what it does is it gives you something to put in place of that drink that you wanna reach for. And even so, it's really hard. And so, I think what- what we need to say is, "Let's put in place some things to help us manage, so that we don't reach for the candy-"

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RW

      "... when we're trying to lose weight, right? But when our body is just saying, 'Ah, I gotta have it.'" (laughs)

    4. SB

      And one of those things which you write about and you've see- uh, seen in this study is, as you said earlier, is...... connections and relationships.

    5. RW

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      How important... Can you quantify to me the importance of having a romantic partner in your life as it relates to health outcomes?

    7. RW

      Well, unfortunately, I can. And because I- I just want to say that h- you do not need a romantic partner to get these benefits-

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RW

      ... 'cause some people have said to me, "Well, if I don't have a romantic partner, should I just walk in front of the bus now and end it all?" Right? No, no. It's fi- it's fine not to have a romantic partner. But there is research (laughs) that shows that actually people who are married, uh, men live 12 years longer on average if they're married, and women live seven years longer on average if they're married. This is some studies in the United States. Um, that said, it's- it's not the marriage license. It's about an intimate connection, and you can have an intimate connection with somebody who's not a romantic partner, could be a- a good friend, could be a sibling, could be a- an adult child. Uh, so many thi- you know, so many ways to have this. What we think is that everybody needs at least one person to whom they feel securely attached. Um, our original participants in our research, at one point, we asked them, "Who could you call in the middle of the night if you were sick or scared? List everybody." And most people could list several people that they could call, but some people couldn't list anyone, and some of those people who couldn't list anyone had romantic partners. Yeah. So you can be lonely in a romantic partnership, right? You can be isolated, uh, in an intimate relationship. So all that is to say that it is really the quality of a secure connection that we're talking about, that we think everybody needs at least one of in the world to get these kinds of benefits.

    10. SB

      What is the physiological, or spiritual, or zen reason why, um, having a intimate relationship with at least one individual is causing us to live longer?

    11. RW

      Yeah. So there are a lot of theories about this, but the best theory fo- for which there's some good data has to do with stress. The idea that good relationships actually help us manage stress and help us manage negative emotion. So, you know, stress happens all day long, right? And like, if I- if I leave here and something upsetting happens, my body will literally change. My blood pressure will go up. My heart rate will increase. I might start to sweat, right? That's normal. The body goes into something called fight-or-flight mode. We're supposed to be able to do that 'cause we wanna prepare to meet a challenge. You know, evolutionarily it's a good thing. But then when the stressor is removed, the body's meant to return to equilibrium. You know, so if I have something upsetting happen and I go home and complain to my wife, I can literally feel my body calm down. You know, if you have a friend you can call and you can talk about what was upsetting, you can literally feel that return to equilibrium. What we know happens is that people who are lonely, people who are socially isolated don't have that. And what we have been able to demonstrate is that they stay in a kind of fight-or-flight mode, so higher levels of stress hormones circulating, like cortisol, um, higher levels of inflammation. And- and that's how, um, we think, we're pretty sure that, um, isolation, loneliness, or toxic relationships through stress can break down your coronary arteries, can break down your joints, can make it more likely that you'll get type 2 diabetes. So that's how the same mechanism can affect lots of different body systems.

    12. SB

      And stress is really intrinsically linked to poor nutrition, right? So if I'm stressed, I'm more likely to reach for the Kit Kat.

    13. RW

      E- exactly. Exactly. You're more- you're more likely to go to the casino or to place that bet or buy that-

    14. SB

      Or make short-term decisions-

    15. RW

      Make-

    16. SB

      ... and not delay gratification.

    17. RW

      Exactly.

    18. SB

      Maybe explains why men live less long as well because they are less likely to, uh, open up according to the data and be vulnerable, and- and therefore their stress is not, um, reduced by the insulating effect of having supportive relationships.

    19. RW

      That's right. They are less likely to open up. In fact, when they've done studies of how couples argue with each other, they videotape them, what they see is that men are more likely to withdraw during an argument-

    20. SB

      (laughs)

    21. RW

      ... and women are more likely to pursue to say, "Look, I wanna talk about this."

    22. SB

      (laughs)

    23. RW

      And the man is likely to kind of clam up and- and literally sink back in his chair. And- and so what we-

    24. SB

      I feel attacked. (laughs)

    25. RW

      (laughs) Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.

    26. SB

      I'm withdrawing.

    27. RW

      And yeah, yeah, yeah. And so- so it literally involves a process of learning sometimes for many men to- to learn to- to say it's okay. And- and one of the things we know is that men often have an aversive physiologic reaction during arguments that make them want to withdraw. Um, so that- so that the same kind of fight-or-flight mode for men make them w- wanna- may make them wanna hang back, and for women may make them want to engage. And that- that's a little bit trickier. Uh, the science is a little trickier in that regard, but there's some idea that that's part of what's- what goes on, uh, for us gender-wise.

    28. SB

      I understand how men might end up in that situation from maybe watching movies or, I don't know, stereotypes that are portrayed in media of what a man is, right? But are we also inheriting that?... from our parents?

    29. RW

      Oh, yes. Absolutely. We get socialized all the time. Um, in fact, there's some research on adolescent boys and the research suggests that younger boys have close friends and they, they emotionally confide in each other. And then, as those teenage boys get older, they stop doing that. And there's some idea that it's not considered manly to do that, so the boys stop doing it. The girls continue to do it 'cause they've been socialized that it's okay, that it's

  8. 37:07 – 43:22

    What are the negative aspects of being lonely?

    1. RW

      feminine, it's perfectly reasonable for a girl and a woman to confide in other people, whereas manly men don't do that. And that's o- that's one of the stereotypes of the... in the ways that we're raised that hopefully is subsiding, um, that there are more ways to feel like a real boy, a real man, that include emotional engagement with other people.

    2. SB

      What is the cost, then, on the other side of the coin? What is the cost of, um, of being lonely? I was reading some studies, I think m- maybe similar to the ones you described, about the gradual decay of connection that's going on in the world, so we're getting lonelier and lonelier as a, as a species.

    3. RW

      Yes.

    4. SB

      Um, have you seen that in your studies? Over the years, you've seen... as you asked these participants how many people they've got to turn to in that moment of crisis, are you seeing a decay in the amount of people they think they can call at 2:00 AM in the morning?

    5. RW

      We haven't seen that decay, but there are many other studies that have. And in fact, there's a sociologist named Robert Putnam in... at Harvard, actually, who wrote a book in the '80s called Bowling Alone, in which he studied what he called our investment in social capital. Like, how much do we join clubs, go to churches and mosques and synagogues? How much do we invite people over to our homes? And what he found was that starting in the 1950s, all of those indices dropped off. We stopped investing in other people. And it seemed to coincide in the US with the introduction of television into the American home. And then he went back in the early 2000s and did the same survey again. All of those parameters had dropped off further. So, what he's shown is that we're becoming much more isolated, certainly in the United States, but also in the UK and in the developed world particularly. And it seems to have a lot to do with social mobility, it seems to have a lot to do with digital media and forms of entertainment, many different causes. But the, the net effect is that we are becoming more isolated. And to your question, there's an investigator, Julianne Holt-Lunstad, who, who studies loneliness, and what she has estimated is that being lonely is as dangerous to your health as smoking half a pack of cigarettes a day or of being obese. And so what we know is that there are these very real concrete effects of social isolation and loneliness that, that damage us as we go through adult life.

    6. SB

      I read that there was a... I read in your book that there was a link with Alzheimer's as well.

    7. RW

      Yes, there is, that the brain declines sooner and the onset of Alzheimer's is earlier in people who are lonely.

    8. SB

      You're twice as more likely to develop... I believe that that was in the, um, Marmalade Trust study? That you're twice as likely to develop Alzheimer's if you're lonely.

    9. RW

      It could be. And we think that has to do with stimulation of brain pathways. So, the thing that, that makes relationships a little scary and risky because people are unpredictable is also the thing that stimulates our brains. So, when I came in here, you and I had never met-

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. RW

      ... so I was gonna talk to you. I didn't know what you'd be like, right? I didn't know what the questions would be like. But that's good for my brain because you've got my brain running on a lot of different circuits, and that's stimulating my brain circuits. That's a good thing. You, I think, are preventing me from becoming demented earlier.

    12. SB

      Thank you. (laughs)

    13. RW

      So thank you very much.

    14. SB

      You're welcome. (laughs)

    15. RW

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      Are we... Are we good at understanding... You know, I think, I think back to that kid, me, sat in that room in Manchester just absolutely focused on building a business and becoming a CEO and all of those things, the monetary upside. I was particularly bad at... If you'd asked me what the value of a relationship was, I would've... I would've said... I probably would've just pointed to the costs. I would've said it's gonna have time and arguments and-

    17. RW

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      I- in the research that you've done, are people good at understanding the value of a relationship?

    19. RW

      No, they're not. They're not. Um, partly because relationships are the background. I mean, if you think about it, we've, we've never known the world without relationships, most of us. Uh, most of us do not live in solitude, and so we've a- there have always been people around, which means we tend to take relationships for granted. Um, and it's only when you pull back and you look at, you know, thousands of lives that we saw these powerful effects, the differences between people who had good relationships and people who didn't. Most of us are... You know, it's like that old joke about the, the two fish swimming along and the older s- fish swims by and says, "Hey, boys, how's the water?" And one fish turns to the other and says, "What's water?" And, you know, we're in this swirl of relationships all the time that we take for granted, and so it's, it's particularly difficult for us to understand that this is something that we need to pay attention to, nurture, cultivate throughout life.

    20. SB

      What if I'm in a toxic relationship? What if my partner is an arsehole? Is it... Do I stay because of these physiological benefits, insulation from stress or whatever it might be, um, or do I dump them and go it alone in life?

    21. RW

      Well, as with so many things, one size does not fit all.

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. RW

      There's a huge amount of discernment involved. So if you think about it, one question for a toxic relationship is, how much is at stake? How much do I have invested? So let's say you're married and you have children together. Then the idea is to work really hard to see, is there a way to salvage this relationship? If only for the children, but also because the partnership could have benefits. And so what we, what we would say is, if there's a lot invested, then we work harder to see, is there any way we can find ways to work out our differences? Sometimes there isn't,

  9. 43:22 – 47:48

    What makes a successful relationship?

    1. RW

      and those relationships need to be ended. But, but I want to point out that most relationships of any consequence have conflict. And so the real issue is not are there conflicts? The real issue is, can we work out conflicts regularly in ways that make us both feel okay about ourselves and about each other? If we can't do that, then those relationships often need to be stepped away from.

    2. SB

      When you looked at all, all of the relationships that are beneficial, um, and are successful as a relationship, what are the factors that made those relationships most successful, if there are any?

    3. RW

      One of the things people talk about a lot is being able to be themselves, to be authentic. Meaning not to have to hide important aspects of who I am in a relationship. And it's not that we're baring our souls all the time, but do I have to pretend that I'm someone I'm not? That's exhausting and depleting. And so the idea is to be able to be yourself in a relationship of any consequence. Um, I think the other thing we find in good relationships is that people allow each other to change over time. I mean, we're all constantly changing. We're all moving targets. And so if we can allow each other to change and maybe even celebrate that change, the relationship is stable and is likely to last. I mean, I think about, you know, my wife and I are about to celebrate our 37th anniversary.

    4. SB

      Wow.

    5. RW

      We are so different than we were 37 years ago. I mean, I, I, I, I had never heard of zen 37 years ago, and now it's a big part of my life. My wife had to figure out, "What do I do with this guy now who practices zen?" My wife has, has developed in ways I never expected. What we've had to do is learn about each other as we change and, and, and accept those changes, and hopefully support each other in changing, which I think mostly my wife and I have been able to do. But it's, part of it's luck. I mean, it's not like we're such wonderful people. We've just been lucky to be able to support each other in those changes. But part of it is intentional. And, and so I think that the best relationships involve being able to support each other in exploring new things, taking risks. Um-

    6. SB

      Wha- uh, o- one of the things that inhibits all of that is we have these expectations on our partner. We have an expectation-

    7. RW

      Oh, yeah.

    8. SB

      ... of the role they'll play, of who they'll be, et cetera. Uh, how does that impact our chances of being successful in relationships?

    9. RW

      Yes. I mean, do... I don't know if you remember this old Billy Joel song, I love you just the way you are, in which the lyrics are saying, "Don't ever change. Don't ever... I just want you to be exactly the way you are right now." And that's completely unrealistic. Um, and so we do. We have these expectations of who our partner is going to be. Parents have this of children. I mean, sometimes, (laughs) sometimes I'll catch myself telling one of my sons, who's in his 30s, "Are you sure you don't want to wear a warmer coat when you're going outside?"

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. RW

      And he looks at me and says, "Dad." (laughs) You know, I mean, he lives on his own. He's lived on his own for years. It's like, come on. But I have to get out of this mode of being his parent in this, in this helicoptering way, right? So we're always having to readjust our expectations of each other in order to make relationships work.

    12. SB

      If I was your, one of your kids and I said, "Dad, give me one piece of relationship advice for how you and Mom have managed to stay together for those 37 odd years. But just, I just want one piece of advice, Dad."

    13. RW

      Catch each other being good. Instead of catching each other doing the things that annoy you, right?

    14. SB

      Yeah.

    15. RW

      I'm really good at noticing when my wife does things that annoy me, and I, I'm not good at remembering, "Oh my gosh, you know, she just made this great meal. Uh, she just made sure that I was on time to this meeting. She just reminded me to take my medication."

    16. SB

      (laughs)

    17. RW

      You know, it's like all these things that, "Oh my God, if she weren't here, I would be a mess," right? And so what I would say is, it's, it's really practicing gratitude. Gratitude practice is really just flipping, flipping our negatively biased minds on their heads and essentially, uh, finding what's good, what's going right

  10. 47:48 – 54:22

    Why we’re all spending our time wrong

    1. RW

      with the partnership. And when we do that, there's, uh, there's usually so much to find that's, that's not wrong, that's right about the relationship. And if you do that, you, you find that... I find that I'm happier in the relationship, even though there are plenty of times when it's boring, it's predictable, it's annoying. Uh, as any long relationship is, there's so much to be grateful for.

    2. SB

      The, the other thing you talk about a lot in this book is about the use of our time and how we spend our time. Chapter five kind of goes back to what we were talking about a second ago about time management and discipline and all these things. Um, one of the alarming things I got from chapter five was just how much time we waste unknowingly. And I think maybe this is something that's quite pertinent to your zen practice, but I think you said that we spend half of our time in waking moments thinking about something other than the thing we're currently doing.

    3. RW

      Yes. Yes.

    4. SB

      ... and, and that people that do that are more unhappy. So people that spend more time ruminating about, um, or with a wandering mind as you called it, are the most unhappy?

    5. RW

      Yes. There's actually good research on this from a different research group where they, they would actually ping people throughout the day at random times and say, "Are you thinking about what's right in front of you now? Are you thinking about what's current?" And that's where they get this, uh, data that says most people will respond, "No, I was thinking about something else. The, the future, the past," whatever. And, and then they would also ask at the same time, "How's your mood right now? How happy are you?" And they found that the people who spent more time thinking about what's right in front of them were far and away happier. Um, so a wandering mind is a less happy mind.

    6. SB

      In that chapter, you talk about multitasking as well. We all think ... I mean, I'm ... You know, this is one of the problems I had when I was writing my book as I like to play music-

    7. RW

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      ... with- that has lyrics in it.

    9. RW

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      So it'd be, I don't know, like R&B music or something-

    11. RW

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      ... and I wanna write at the same time. And I eventually come to learn that my brain is incapable of doing two things, so it's n- not actually listening to the music. Um, uh, it can't listen to the music and write at the same time. In chapter five, you talk about there's, there's research that shows our brain is not capable of doing one more, more than one thing at a time.

    13. RW

      That's right. You're, you're really switching back and forth really quickly, and it's super inefficient. (laughs) It's incredib- it's an incredible waste of energy, because your brain takes a moment to get back into gear in the thing you've switched back to, and then it's g- and then it's switching off again to something else. And so what we ... This idea of multitasking, "Oh, I can do so many things at once," is a fool's errand basically.

    14. SB

      Flow state.

    15. RW

      Mm.

    16. SB

      Kinda linked to that.

    17. RW

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      Is, is it a thing?

    19. RW

      It is a thing.

    20. SB

      Is it a good thing?

    21. RW

      Yeah, it is a good thing.

    22. SB

      Prove it.

    23. RW

      Well, I c- I don't know if I can prove it, but, uh, well, actually there's been some good work by, uh, Csikszentmihalyi. He's a ... That's his, that's his name, and I can't spell it. It's this, uh, long name. He's since passed away, but a very brilliant psychologist who did research on flow states. You know, so I'm a meditator, and many people say to me when they find that out. They go, "Oh, I should meditate." And I often say, "No, you shouldn't. You should see if meditation feels good to you. And if it does, do it. If it doesn't feel good, find another state, a flow state if you will. Find another pastime that, for you, makes the time just fly by." So my wife is not a meditator. She has no interest in it, but she loves music, and she's a r- l- an avid pianist. She can sit for an hour and just be transported playing the piano. That's her flow state. For some people, it's skiing down a ski slope. For some people, it's working in a garden. For some people, it's being on a soccer pitch. It's ... You know, um, so what I ... My hope for people is that they find a flow state, or maybe more than one, and that they allow themselves those experiences of flow from time to time, where they're just in- so in the activity that time passes by effortlessly, without noticing.

    24. SB

      That's so nice to hear and refreshing for people who have struggled with meditation, which I imagine is most people.

    25. RW

      Lots of people.

    26. SB

      And, you know, even on this podcast when I have guests on, they often talk about the, um, positive upside of doing meditative practice. There must be so many people that listen and go, "I've tried it. I can't, I can't b- It doesn't work for me." But to know that, like, your hobby, that thing that just, as you said, that makes the time fly by, is, isn't equally effective potentially form of meditation-

    27. RW

      Exactly.

    28. SB

      ... making music or painting or whatever it might be, running, and I s-

    29. RW

      Really nourishing. I mean, it en- it gives us energy, it gives us a sense of peace and equanimity to be in that kinda state.

    30. SB

      (paper crinkles) Quick one. As you guys know, we're lucky enough to have BlueJeans by Verizon as a sponsor of this podcast, and for anyone that doesn't know, BlueJeans is an online video conferencing tool that allows you to have slick, fast, high-quality online meetings without all the glitches you might normally find with online meeting tools. And they have a new feature called BlueJeans Basic. BlueJeans Basic is essentially a free version of their top-quality video conferencing tool. That means you get an immersive video experience that is super high quality, super easy, and super ... basically zero fuss. Apart from all the incredible features like zero time limits on meeting calls, it also comes with high-fidelity audio and video, including Dolby Voice, which is incredibly useful. They also have enterprise-grade security, so you can collaborate with confidence. It's so smooth that it's quite literally changing the game for myself and my team without compromising on quality. To find out more, all you have to do is search bluejeans.com, and let me know how you get on. (paper crinkles) Over the last couple of, how long? Maybe four months, I've been changing my diet, shall I say. Many of you who have really been paying attention to this, to this podcast will know why. I've sat here with some incredible health experts, and one of the things that's really come through for me, which has caused a big change in my life, is the need for us to have these superfoods, these green foods, these vegetables, and then ... A company I love so much, and a company I'm an investor in, and then a company that sponsored this podcast and that I'm on the board of recently announced a new product, which absolutely spoke to exactly where I was in my life, and that is Huel, and they announced Daily

  11. 54:22 – 1:04:19

    What leads to happiness at work?

    1. SB

      Greens. Daily Greens is a product that contains 91 superfoods, nutrients, and plant-based ingredients, which helps me meet that dietary requirement with the convenience that Huel always offers. Unfortunately, it's only currently available in the US, but I hope, I pray, that it'll be with you guys in the UK too. So if you're in the US, check it out. It's an incredible product. I've been having it here in LA for the last couple of weeks, and it's a game-changer. (paper crinkles) On, on the subject of work, um-What did you notice in the study about the type of work that leads to the most happiness? I've really tried to distill, I think over the last couple of years, what are the, like, fundamentals of what we need in work to be happy. And obviously, because of this, like, real tectonic shift in how we work, and digital screens and remote working, things are changing. And I, I sometimes wonder if we're kind of sleepwalking into a, a world of work that we haven't properly considered. Just because we can do something-

    2. RW

      Yes.

    3. SB

      ... doesn't mean necessarily we should.

    4. RW

      Yes. Again, that, that path of least resistance, you know?

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RW

      That, that, um... So we do know some things about this from, um, some good research coming out of business schools, they do a lot of this kind of research on, on the conditions of work. But also the Gallup Organization, they did a survey of 15 million workers all over the world, all ages, all cultures, all ranks in the, in a workplace. And their main question was, "Do you have a best friend at work?" Only 30% of those 15 million workers ha- said, "Yes, I have a best friend." What that meant was, "I have someone who I talk to about my life, about my personal life." You know, it might be my, "My child is struggling with math," or it could be anything, you know, but just to talk about what's going on in your life. Those 30%, then they, they, they did all kinds of assessments of those people and talked to their bosses, and they were better workers, they earned more money, they were better with customers. They were less likely to leave their jobs for a better offer because they had people they wanted to show up for every day. And so, what many, uh, leaders in the workplace think of as a distraction, socializing at work, turns out to be a hugely powerful factor for increasing productivity and increasing wellness and happiness at work. Those 70% of people who said, "No, I don't have a friend at work," 11 out of 12 of those people said, "I'm pretty much disengaged from my job."

    7. SB

      11 out of 12?

    8. RW

      11 out of 12. So-

    9. SB

      Nearly all of them.

    10. RW

      Nearly all of them. Whereas the 30% were much more engaged in their jobs. So if you have friends, you're also more engaged in your work. There's something about those connections that is energizing, enlivening, and it spills over into the work itself.

    11. SB

      It's so interesting, I sat with our head of culture at, um, my marketing company, Flight Story, and we were talking about the KPIs that a head of culture and people should be, um, tracking in the modern era. Um, and one of the KPIs, which I had in my last company and we've, uh, introduced into Flight Story, is the amount of communities that exist outside of the office. So how many football team-

    12. RW

      Mm.

    13. SB

      You know, do, do, do we have a women's football team? Do we have a reading club?

    14. RW

      Yes.

    15. SB

      Do we have a... And are they active communities?

    16. RW

      Yes.

    17. SB

      Because it's really clear to me that, like, in terms of retention, satisfaction, engagement in the work, if people are bound by this community in various different ways, everything is gonna be better.

    18. RW

      Exactly.

    19. SB

      And, and you, people don't necessarily think about that in the modern world of work that you should be, as an employer, doing everything you can to create a, I don't know, Flight Story football club, or a Diary of a CEO, uh, reading club or running club. It will have huge positive impact for, of course, health and all of those things, physical health and all those things. But psychological health and social fitness, as, uh, as you call it in the book, will go up. Um, as employees, we don't think that's our business.

    20. RW

      Right, right. We don't think it's our business, and it turns out to be so much our business. The other thing is we, most of us spend more waking hours at work than we spend doing anything else in our lives, for most of our adult life. I mean, so if you're not going to get the benefits of good connections with other people at work, you are missing a huge part of your life experience.

    21. SB

      But it didn't used to need to be our business so much either, if you know what I mean. Like, we used to have other things within society, like even pubs have started shutting down because the economics don't work out-

    22. RW

      Oh.

    23. SB

      ... and churches and-

    24. RW

      Oh. Yeah.

    25. SB

      ... these sort of social institutions-

    26. RW

      Yeah.

    27. SB

      ... outside of the office. And then you, you look at what's going on with this kind of remote working situation post-pandemic, where the, the w- the in- social institution of the office or working around people is also in decline.

    28. RW

      Yeah.

    29. SB

      What's your view then on remote working, and what would your message be to a CEO or leader or employer that's, has this maybe potential social pressure coming from whate- wherever to say, "Everyone should be able to work from home at all times. That's a really good thing," versus the research you've done that shows the importance of in real life human connection?

    30. RW

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we don't know enough yet about the difference between remote work and in-person work. We don't know, for example, what gets filtered out on Zoom. You know, what, what aspects of emotional communication get filtered out? We don't know. Um, and so we're gonna learn more in the next few years because people are studying this. But then the question is, what do we do? And-

  12. 1:04:19 – 1:08:24

    Constant themes you see in your patients

    1. RW

      I suspect, keeps the body revved up in a kind of chronic stress mode-

    2. SB

      Yeah.

    3. RW

      ... that then breaks it down.

    4. SB

      Y- in your work as a psyc- psychiatrist, what is the, like, reoccurring thing that h- us as humans just seem to struggle with on an ongoing basis? You talked about at the start it was, um, things to do with, like, you know, permanence or our identity, whatever else. Are there other things? I remember sitting here-

    5. RW

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      ... with Marisa Peer, um, and she talked to me about how we, like, fundamentally live with ... the patients she sees suffer with a feeling like they're not enough.

    7. RW

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      That seems to be a consistent theme-

    9. RW

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      ... for her.

    11. RW

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      What are the consistent themes in your, in your practice as a s- a psychiatrist?

    13. RW

      Well, I would say that sense of not being enough is, is a very important, very common one. Um, and, and it, it speaks to a, a sort of larger problem of self-criticism, that many of us are quite critical of ourselves for just any number of things. All of us have a different set of things we're critical about, but a lot of what I work with with people is first showing them the self-criticism 'cause often it's like the air they breathe.

    14. SB

      So I come into your practice and what is a typical symptom of someone that might come and see you, and why would they have come to see you?

    15. RW

      They might come with depression.

    16. SB

      Okay.

    17. RW

      They might come with anxiety. They might come with a sense that, uh, life is meaningless, and they're not getting any joy in life. They might have come because a spouse has died or a child has died, and they're not able to cope. They are just finding life, life isn't, doesn't seem worth living anymore.

    18. SB

      And what's your process from there once they say their symptom? "I'm depressed," let's say.

    19. RW

      Uh, we talk.

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. RW

      Um, so I'm, I am a psychiatrist, but I t- tend not to reach for my prescription pad right away. I do use medication when we need it, but first we talk. And often if I can help somebody just to tell me what's wrong, um, a lot of the symptoms will ease.

    22. SB

      That's interesting.

    23. RW

      Um, and yeah. I mean, you can... Uh, if somebody is, is a, is, if it's life and death, I will often use medication right away to make sure somebody stays safe. But many times people will come and after two or three meetings, they will feel less depressed because they've been able to unburden themselves and to talk about, um, something they feel is so horrible or so shameful and...... I can help them understand it, and often normalize it. A lot of what I do, and a lot of what my research does, is normalize things, is say, "Yeah, this is part of being human." Um, and for many people, you know, a lot of times, heh, one of my teachers used a phrase that I find so helpful. He said, "We're always comparing our insides to other people's outsides." You know, I'm always comparing the me that some mornings wakes up feeling kind of lost and, you know, like I don't know what I'm doing with my life, or down-

    24. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. RW

      ... with the, the curated lives that we see on social media or the game faces that we put on for each other. I mean, you know, we're, you and I are trying to look okay for each other. And you know, I'm not, we're not telling each other about our miseries right now 'cause we have a job to do. We're doing this interview. And that's fine. That's good. We need to do that. But it can leave each of us with the impression that other people are always fine. They've got it figured out, and I don't. So a lot of my work as a psychiatrist is to help people see, oh, you know, no, this is actually part of being human that, you know, yes, when you lose a loved one, this is a trauma. And that, yes, many people feel like they don't want to get out of bed in the morning. Many people feel like they can't

  13. 1:08:24 – 1:11:52

    Characteristics of someone that can change

    1. RW

      go to work. And let's talk about that. Let's talk about your loved one. Let's talk about what the loss is like. And when you really take people through that and take through, people through what's hurting so much, a lot of times the pain will ease tremendously. Uh, sometimes we use medication to help and that, that's good, but many times it's not needed.

    2. SB

      What are the factors of somebody that can be helped from, from all you've seen in your work? What are the, what are the things you go, "Well, if they exhibit this, this, and this, then I think we can work with them"?

    3. RW

      Yes.

    4. SB

      And I'm saying this, uh, it's worth saying 'cause I want to b- build the bridge, we all have people in our lives that we want to help.

    5. RW

      You're right.

    6. SB

      Someone that's struggling with something. I'm not saying it's our job to help them or to be a fixer, as Simon Sinek taught me not to be. Um, but it, I, I do find it useful to know, um... That's kind of the question I'm trying to answer here is like, that person we all have in our lives, you know, maybe they're struggling with something, maybe it's a recurring issue-

    7. RW

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      Which ones of those can be helped? What are the cool factors?

    9. RW

      The ones who can be helped are the ones who are willing to look inward. So some people will never go for help, right? They'll never want to be curious about themselves. Often because it's scary at the deepest level. Who, who are saying, "This is my story and I'm sticking to it. This is my worldview and I am not gonna inquire about my own role in my difficulties," right? The people who can be helped are the people who sooner or later get to a point where they say, "Okay, maybe I'm making some contribution to my troubles." And if so, what is that?

    10. SB

      Responsibility.

    11. RW

      R- some responsibility. Some responsibility. For some people it's humiliating. It's impossible to even imagine that I am the architect of some of my own misery. Actually, w- s- many times s- a couple will come for couples therapy, and if one person says, "The only thing you have to do is fix the other person"-

    12. SB

      (laughs)

    13. RW

      ... you know that it's not gonna work. Because the c- any couple is, has learned a set of dance steps they've developed, and what you have to h- help the couple to do is look at their dance steps and then modify them. And it's always two ways. It's always both people contributing to difficulties in the couple, just as both people contribute to what goes right. It's the person who says, "No way am I any part of the problem here," that's the person who can't really be helped by these means.

    14. SB

      It's the reason why sometimes we don't want to take responsibility, because confronting what the inward perspective might show us, as you said, is really uncomfortable for a self-esteem which is already on the floor.

    15. RW

      Yes. Yes. That's it. I mean-

    16. SB

      So I'm playing defense. I don't want to-

    17. RW

      ... some, I'm playing defense, and the defense has to be so complete. So think about the people who are so self-aggrandizing and have to tell you with every sentence how wonderful they are, who can never apologize, who can never admit doing anything wrong. Those are often the people who feel the most vulnerable and who put up this, this rigid defense,

  14. 1:11:52 – 1:15:07

    A framework to perfectly use your time

    1. RW

      because to entertain that they're fallible, that they can make a mistake, that they can do something wrong, is, is, is th- threatens a total collapse-

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RW

      ... of the self. And so those many times are the people who just can't, can't at all entertain that question of, "What could I be doing that I might be able to change to make things better?"

    4. SB

      Do you have a framework for how... I've, I've heard you talk about how precious time is in your book and about attention. Do you have some kind of framework that you use to decide how to invest your time? Like, why to come h- why did you come here today-

    5. RW

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      ... versus being somewhere else? Or, you know, you live in-

    7. RW

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      ... Boston, right?

    9. RW

      Yes.

    10. SB

      So you've flown over to the, the, the UK, to Europe, you've been doing some, you know, uh, appointments, uh, in Europe. How are you deciding to deploy your time? Is there a framework?

    11. RW

      There's definitely a framework. Um, for me it goes back to that vow of service. So this study had been going for 85 years. We've published hundreds of scientific papers. But we publish them in academic journals, very technical. No one reads those journals, literally almost no one.And so what we found was that people were hungry for this kind of information. I mean, the reason why my TED Talk went viral was because I was speaking about things that we know from science that we haven't told anybody in the wider world. So my mission, I said, "Look, I don't have that many years left in my career. My mission now is gonna be to bring this science that we've worked so hard to develop and bring it to people in ways that they can use, to bring it in understandable form rather than highly technical, geeky form," which is what most of my scientific papers are.

    12. SB

      Why? Why not do something else?

    13. RW

      Because relieving suffering is one of the most meaningful things I can do with my life. And given that I'm not gonna be remembered 50 years from now, uh, easing some suffering right now is the best thing I can think of to do.

    14. SB

      What, what's it doing for you?

    15. RW

      It makes me feel like my life has some purpose. Um, that and being with my family, you know, my, my wife and my kids and my friends. Um, uh, th- those are... Because the, the question that Zen keeps asking, and making me ask, is, "Well, what's being human about?" I mean, it's so unlikely to, to be born, first of all, right? And then to live a life. And so what... Why am I doing this? And so that's, that's the answer I have given myself. It's not, by any means, the right answer. God knows it's not the only answer. It's just my answer, and it's my answer for now.

    16. SB

      Is, is, is life... Is there a point to life in your view?

    17. RW

      The point is what we make of it. There, there is... You know, this is the evolving of the universe. The universe is constantly changing. It's morphing

  15. 1:15:07 – 1:16:52

    What do you get wrong about life?

    1. RW

      and changing. Our species is gonna morph and change, probably be extinct, right? Every species eventually becomes extinct.

    2. SB

      So do we matter, then, if we're gonna be extinct?

    3. RW

      I don't know. We matter for the moment, and we matter to each other. I mean, that's another reason why I've spent so much of my adult life prioritizing relationships and studying relationships, 'cause I think, "What d- what can we do?" Well, we can matter to each other. Um-

    4. SB

      What have you gotten wrong, and what are you going to do?

    5. RW

      Oh. Oh, I've gotten so much wrong. Where, where do I start? But, uh, okay, I'll start-

    6. SB

      Just from the top of the list. (laughs)

    7. RW

      Okay. Top of the list, top of the list is I've worried too much about what other people thought.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RW

      So one of the things I've done is I've... For example, I was in a job that was very prestigious. When I was young, I was director of a training program at a prestigious program at, for y- for psychiatrists. I hated it. I realized I... And I was on a track to, to be the chair of a psychiatry department at a fancy academic institution. And I realized I just hated the work. I just hated being an administrator. To me, it was like washing dishes. The same problems came up over and over again. And, and I would sit in these meetings with people who were obviously very engaged, and I'm glad they were engaged, but I just didn't care about it. And I finally had to say to myself first and then to everybody else, "I don't wanna do this. This is not my path." And it took me longer than I wish it had, but I'm glad I did it. I'm, I had to learn that lesson in order to... You know, that was one of those badges of achievement, right? And so I've, uh... So, for me, what I've gotten wrong is, is thinking that the badges of achievement were gonna be satisfying

  16. 1:16:52 – 1:25:21

    How do we make our society happier?

    1. RW

      and realizing that they're not. I mean, for me, a conversation like this is actually satisfying. I'd rather do this. Um, and I don't even care how many people listen to your podcast, although I'm, I'm sure it's a lot of people. I understand it is, right?

    2. SB

      A couple.

    3. RW

      But, but I don't care. What I really care about is having this conversation with you. That that feels like a really good use of my time.

    4. SB

      I, if I make you, um, if I made you prime minister or president of the world-

    5. RW

      No, please.

    6. SB

      No, I, no, we need you-

    7. RW

      Okay.

    8. SB

      ... Robert. Um, and I told you to redesign society in a way that would lead us all to having greater levels of fulfillment-

    9. RW

      (laughs)

    10. SB

      ... and happiness, what are some of the, the s-, the first things you would do in terms of the design of the way society operates at the moment? What would you ban? What would you introduce and enforce?

    11. RW

      What I would introduce is massive support for children and the people who take care of children, because it's the best long-term investment. That actually, they've done some studies of this. There's a, uh, James Heckman is a, an economist at the University of Chicago who, who published a paper in Science where he analyzed hundreds of studies of wh- when we invest in w-, in an age group, where do we get the biggest bang for the buck, right? If we invest in zero to four years old, or five to eight, or all the way up, uh, what, what happens when people get into adulthood? Who's the most self-sufficient? You know, who's the healthiest? And what he found was that for every dollar we invest in age zero to four, that we get a huge payoff compared to every other age group. That doesn't mean we shouldn't support people in other age groups, but it means if we could invest in children, in young children, and childcare, ah, so much, uh, so much less poverty, substance abuse, misery down 20 years, 30 years down the line. It's a long-term investment.

    12. SB

      Interesting. And what about on an individual level? So if you were to give me advice, then, on an individual level, maybe we'll put this in the frame of one of your children turning to you and saying again, "Dad, I'm off to live my life." Uh-... what is the, the way you would recommend I design my life, at a very fundamental level, for it to be a fulfilling life? What do I need to know, Robert, dad?

    13. RW

      Invest in people. Really. Invest in all kinds of relationships, including casual, peripheral ones. Uh-

    14. SB

      Which is what you've had to do, following your-

    15. RW

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      ... involvement in the study, right?

    17. RW

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      That intentionality of, like, pouring into relationships-

    19. RW

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      ... even though it doesn't feel natural.

    21. RW

      Yeah, yeah. 'Cause so many benefits come back. It's not... You know, they see us through hard times. They... You know, what they, what they find, for example, is that, um, your most peripheral relationships are the people who are most likely to find you your next job, not your closest friends, right? So, even these peripheral relationships are of great value to us. And that happens to be because they're not in your social network. They know many people who you've never heard of, and can connect you with people you would have no other connection with.

    22. SB

      I'm definitely one of those people that, like, has a bias towards being on my own, being isolated, just working on my own, and I'm not good at watering my peripheral relationships. I'm, like, you know, five out of five at nurturing my, like, close relationships. But outside of that, it's like, pfff, it's like a concrete wall. Um, I think a lot of people are like that.

    23. RW

      Yeah.

    24. SB

      I think a lot of people really struggle. I, I don't know, like struggle with... Especially, again, we talked earlier on about men struggling with, um, soc- social interaction because of their inability to be vulnerable and open. Does it really matter? Like, does it really matter for me that I... Uh, you know, I'm 30 years old now. Do I start hitting people up that I've not spoken to in a couple of years-

    25. RW

      Yeah.

    26. SB

      ... and start asking them to go for coffee?

    27. RW

      It doesn't matter if you don't feel a lack.

    28. SB

      How do I know if I feel a lack?

    29. RW

      Uh, you-

    30. SB

      Hard to know.

  17. 1:25:21 – 1:26:38

    The last guest’s question

    1. RW

      if we...... hung together in groups. And so the problem is that the way we evolved, it's a stressor to be alone, it's a stressor to be more isolated, but life is taking us in these directions of greater isolation. So, uh, I'm not hopeful, um, and you called me out on it. You could see it flicker across my face and then I think I was trying to hide it.

Episode duration: 1:30:49

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