A Billionaire’s Guide To Healing Your Mind And Extending Your Life: Christian Angermayer | E72

Christian Angermayer 0:00 But I do personally think (laughs) it's the best thing I've ever done in my whole life, full stop.

Narrator 0:04 (intro music)

Christian Angermayer 0:04 And I was like, "Look, you're clearly insane."

Steven Bartlett 0:06 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 0:06 Like, "I'm, I've never drank alcohol ... da, da, da ... and I'm not gonna touch an illegal drug."

Narrator 0:11 (intro music)

Christian Angermayer 0:11 But the biggest interference is death. It's not my ... I don't choose the time, I don't choose like ... And we need to change that.

Narrator 0:19 (instrumental music)

Steven Bartlett 0:25 My guest today is a friend, but he's also most definitely the most interesting human being I have ever encountered in my life. He's an entrepreneur, he's an investor, but he's also just a really nice guy, and he's invested and started companies in some of the most fascinating industries, from psychedelics, to space tech, to artificial intelligence, to cryptocurrencies, to FinTech, you name it, he's in there. In fact, he's the single biggest investor/driving force behind the whole psychedelics industry, which is currently trying to cure mental health disorders. This is, undoubtedly, the most interesting person I know. And I think this is the type of podcast where you're going to demand a part two, because we spoke for two hours and even I was left feeling that I was only scratching the surface, and that I wanted to know more. The man I'm talking about is Christian Angermayer, and I genuinely believe he's going to become, if he isn't already, one of Europe's most important investors and entrepreneurs. In the same way that people praise Elon Musk for all the work he's done in the US, I think he's Europe's answer to Elon Musk. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

Narrator 1:42 (instrumental music)

Steven Bartlett 1:46 Christian,

Steven Bartlett 1:48 I, I know so much ab- about you and, and the work you do. I, I know your ... You know, I've observed your behavior in person over the last, you know, six, six to 12 months, um, deeply, deeply fascinating. But the part of you that I know very, very little about is your early years, your upbringing, your childhood.

Christian Angermayer 2:04 Cute child. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 2:05 Really?

Christian Angermayer 2:05 No, no, not child. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 2:07 I've been fascinated by that-

Christian Angermayer 2:08 I think I was a cute child.

Steven Bartlett 2:09 ... I've only heard-

Christian Angermayer 2:09 Uh-

Steven Bartlett 2:09 ... slithers of that part of your life. So, could you tell me a little bit more about-

Christian Angermayer 2:14 Um-

Steven Bartlett 2:14 ... the childhood that made the man?

Christian Angermayer 2:16 The, the main point I'm always making, which I'm really (laughs) sort of literally happy about, is that I was a very, very happy child, meaning I'm still a very happy person, but I think the reason why I'm grounded-ly happy is because I had a great, like ... how you say? Um, childlike upbringing. Like, I was growing up in a 90 people village, um, so-

Steven Bartlett 2:36 Wow. Bavaria. In Bavaria.

Christian Angermayer 2:37 In Bavaria. I literally knew everybody, and there were a lot of other children, so I'm an only child, but, like, I had a lot of children, sort of same age, plus minus four years, to, to grow up with. Um, and we were literally, like in a TV series, we were out all day, like in summer, in winter, like it was very much like you would picture, like, what is this American TV series where they ... My Day on a Farm, or whatever. Like, it was like that.

Steven Bartlett 3:01 Right.

Christian Angermayer 3:01 Like, sort of, um-

Steven Bartlett 3:02 Idyllic childhood upbringing.

Christian Angermayer 3:04 Yes, per- per- ... Really idyllic, like, yeah, no crime, like, no risk. Like, I was literally ... My mom would send me out in the morning, uh, in summer and winter, and I came back in the evening, since I'm, like, five. Like, I was ... 'Cause there was no risk for anything.

Steven Bartlett 3:18 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 3:18 Like, um, yeah, so that was, sort of, the very, very ... This was 'til I'm nine, and then we moved to a town, mini (...) (1:39) city, town with, like, 2,000 people.

Steven Bartlett 3:27 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 3:28 So, it's near, nearby, like-

Steven Bartlett 3:29 Wow.

Christian Angermayer 3:29 ... kilo- kilometer apart. Um, so it was all very, very rural, very ... Which I liked. So, I'm actually was thinking about if I have children, when I have children, then how to recreate that, which I think won't work. So, but like, I think it's great to have nature, which is also, by the way, meaning already jumping, but like ... Yeah, because you know that the way I do a lot in, in psy- in mental health work, like, and one thing which is really healthy, very, very simple, uh, for your mental health is nature.

Steven Bartlett 3:58 Yeah.

Christian Angermayer 3:58 Like, there is even, in Japan, they prescribe, like, a wa- a walk in the forest as a, as a treatment for depression. So, anyway, so I grew up in this super nice childhood. Like, I always was funnily, um, very entrepreneurial. Yeah. And nobody else is, so not in my family, not in this village. Like, so that was always literally, like, with six w- ... My mom still has the ... So, the first thing which I did when I learned writing was writing invoices. Like, so it was tiny bills.

Steven Bartlett 4:30 (laughs) Of course.

Christian Angermayer 4:30 Like, I said, "Oh, give me fives," (laughs) "give me five cents, uh, for, for salads." So, I was actually had a very, a flourishing gardening business-

Steven Bartlett 4:40 Oh, really?

Christian Angermayer 4:40 ... since I'm four, like, or five. Yeah, I forgot. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 4:42 How's it going? (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 4:43 Well, I'm sorry, (laughs) wrong English term. So, I-

Steven Bartlett 4:45 Not psychedelics. (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 4:47 I, (laughs) no, I st- I stopped it later on when I was 12.

Steven Bartlett 4:51 Right. (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 4:51 But, like, no, but this how I started my first business. But my mom still remembers that the first thing I did with my writing skills was writing her an invoice for salad and everything.

Steven Bartlett 5:01 Wow.

Christian Angermayer 5:01 And then I was literally, like in a movie, it's very stereotype, but I was selling, um, lemonade to neighbors. Then I was selling lollipops in school. I was selling literally everything. Like, I made a business out of everything. So, I wa- I remember when I went to the, my first cinema, um, ever, uh, I think I was, like, seven. Um, then I was so fascinated that people are buying for something which is apparently also on TV-

Steven Bartlett 5:27 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 5:27 ... they didn't get the difference.

Steven Bartlett 5:28 Yeah, yeah.

Christian Angermayer 5:29 So, then I then started charging my parents at home when they wanted to switch on the TV-

Steven Bartlett 5:33 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 5:33 ... because I was pretending I was running a cinema. So, uh, yeah, so every li- literally everything I was doing, I saw through the lens of a business.

Steven Bartlett 5:42 And, and when you look at your childhood-

Christian Angermayer 5:43 And my parents were deeply worried, (laughs) in a nice way, but they were worried.

Steven Bartlett 5:46 They always tend to be with, with kids that are slightly different.

Christian Angermayer 5:48 Well, but they, they ... Exactly. I, n- yeah, so I look like them, so the discussion, uh, if they made me not my parents was early off the table.

Steven Bartlett 5:56 I can imagine.

Christian Angermayer 5:56 Yeah, but, like, sort of from the way how I l- see the world, and I'm very different.

Steven Bartlett 6:03 What were the factors, the, sort of, macro factors at play that was making you into this entrepreneur, at that age, but also the entrepreneur you, you came to become-

Christian Angermayer 6:11 I don't know. Like, it was always there. Like, I-

Steven Bartlett 6:12 Sometimes I think for myself, I think, because my parents were never around, they create this big, sort of, void of freedom and independence, which I thought ... made this connection in my mind that if I was going to get something, it came from my behavior. I'm thinking about those factors that, you know, freedom, you said, you know, I've heard you say that your parents were very-

Christian Angermayer 6:28 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 6:29 ... keen for you just to be happy.

Christian Angermayer 6:30 Yeah, exactly. Like, they were always like, "I can be whatever I want," so but, like, it was not that... I don't s- ... I don't know if that automatically leads to entrepreneurship. It could also have led to me being an artist or whatever. Like-

Steven Bartlett 6:40 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 6:40 ... I don't think there is a connection between freedom... It's actually the freedom to be whatever you want, and then I think maybe you (sniffs) maybe it's genetic, maybe it's like... I don't know. Like, um, I real- ... This is, though, the point, meaning, it was always there. There is not, there is not a moment I can think of where I, sort of, changed. But it was literally since I can think, since I'm four, five, six, (laughs) like, very, very early, it was always there to make a business out of everything, in a nice way, hopefully.

Steven Bartlett 7:09 That coupled with some kind of innate curiosity, which is, you know, Peter Thiel said, when he did, did a quote about you, in Sifted, he said that, "Curiosity is one of your real, sort of..."

Christian Angermayer 7:19 Yeah, but yeah, no, I just thinking if that was that early visible. I loved school, which I think I was a very nerdy child as well. So I, yeah, I, um, I loved... But actually, I did love school for, and even now more talking than later high school, for the one reason, and even if I look back now, I really miss it a bit, because it was the only time in life where you do something for the pure reason of learning something, with no material, sort of. Meaning, I turned that then also in a business because I started my, my... This was my first real business, was when I started a tutoring business when I was 14, um, and then I, um-

Steven Bartlett 7:58 What was that business? Tell me.

Christian Angermayer 7:59 Tutoring, like, like, giving, sort of-

Steven Bartlett 8:01 Other kids?

Christian Angermayer 8:01 ... other kids, yeah. Because I was extremely good in school so I was always the best one in my school, but I was practically always the best one in, like, the Bavaria or whatever, or, like, top 10, yeah. And I was always... I like to explain stuff. So, so I think, I think that still helps me now because it's part of fundraising to explain complex, sort of, things to people. Anyway, so I liked, I, I did like to explain stuff and I did like to, um... and I, I was good in the matter, so, so I started tutoring. Then there was this tiny thing, I, I think a bit that because the teachers very much liked me (laughs) because I was always, like, uh, the good child, like, everybody who came to me automatically became a little bit better because teachers were treating these children more nicer-

Steven Bartlett 8:46 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 8:46 ... because they were coming to me. So it became this, sort of, um, positive virtuous circle that more and more parents were like, "Oh God, we have to send our children to Christian because it really works." And I think-

Steven Bartlett 8:56 And what were you doing for these kids? (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 8:57 Well, tutoring, like how you-

Steven Bartlett 8:58 Teaching them-

Christian Angermayer 8:59 Teaching them-

Steven Bartlett 8:59 ... the same thing.

Christian Angermayer 9:00 ... the same thing because they were... these were the, the ones-

Steven Bartlett 9:02 Okay.

Christian Angermayer 9:02 ... who didn't perform well. How do you call it English? Tutoring, right?

Steven Bartlett 9:04 Yeah, yeah, tutoring.

Christian Angermayer 9:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:05 And they were your peers? They were the same age?

Christian Angermayer 9:07 Exactly. Same age or younger. No, oh, younger.

Steven Bartlett 9:09 Okay, okay.

Christian Angermayer 9:09 Like, it was mainly, like, a little bit younger, like, one or two years, but not a lot younger. So anyway, and then I was like, after half a year, I was so, like, full, like, I think I worked, like, 10, 15 hours a week, uh, practically all the time, (laughs) like, it was tutoring, like ... And then I was like, "How do I really scaled it up?" And it sounds now very, um, (clicks tongue) I don't know, very banal, yeah, but for me, this was, like, the first time I really thought about business, like, in an entrepreneurial way, how do you scale it up? And practically, I realized I have the brand because parents wanna send their children to me, um, so I was employing other, uh, other pupils, my same age or even a little bit older, and said, "You can teach under my brand-"

Steven Bartlett 9:51 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 9:52 ... "and you get half of it and I get half of it."

Steven Bartlett 9:54 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 9:54 So, 50% margin. And I started employing and I continuously, till my final grade, had, like, 10 people, like, always employed, yeah, who were tutoring other children, yeah. So it was a very lucrative business, um-

Steven Bartlett 10:09 And then-

Christian Angermayer 10:09 ... meaning for, for a child, like, but, like-

Steven Bartlett 10:11 That's crazy. That's absolutely crazy.

Christian Angermayer 10:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:13 And then, so you get to 16, you get to 18. In that period of your life, I hear that in Bavaria, they have this, like, public service you've got to do for a year?

Christian Angermayer 10:19 Yeah, no, go ahead, I just was thinking, like, how compliant do I have to be? Because then, it's all, I think, what is it called when it's out of ... time is back, like, (laughs) nobody can-

Steven Bartlett 10:27 Yeah, different times, yeah, yeah.

Christian Angermayer 10:28 ... nobody can claw it back, like... Because what happened is, like, I was always extremely libertarian, and in... we had back then, it changed in Germany, but we had back then, like the Israelis have still, you had to go to the military for a year. And I think, in generally, this is wrong. Not because I'm against the military, but I think you can employ people, this is a job, like, people w- should want to be a soldier or should want to be something else. But, like, I think as a government, meaning I, in generally, I think the, the less government, the better. So I, (laughs) I was thinking, hopefully this comes out across charming, but because I was thinking all the time how to avoid it. Unfortunately, I was not daring enough back then. There were tricks to do it, like, you could have had said you're, (laughs) you're, sort of, mentally ill or whatever, like, I was not brave enough to go on with that. So I, I decided to do, um, uh, you can, you could also opt to do civil servant, ............................ like, you could go to a hospital or whatever. So, and I tried to be really nice, so I picked a job which I knew is, it didn't re- really require me. It was more like, okay, you had to put these children who didn't wanna go to the military, you could say you're a pacifist, you had to put them somewhere. It was not that somebody was dependent on me. So I was sitting in that hospital and my only job was to bring stuff from A to B, like-

Steven Bartlett 11:47 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 11:47 ... whatever. So then I made an, I remember that I made a, um, um, how you say? A proposal that if we reorganize everything in the hospital, I could do my job in an hour and then go home, yeah?

Steven Bartlett 11:59 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 11:59 So this was, like, I was 18, and then they were like, "Okay, this is crazy." Like, I was not really, really, uh, popular. Um, so, and then I made a decision that I'm not really gonna show up anymore, um, and the only way to do that was to, um, (clicks tongue) to get always, like, doctors to give me, like, um-

Steven Bartlett 12:20 Letter, like a-

Christian Angermayer 12:20 ... a letter. And...So now comes for the important point because, like, till that time I, um, I was extremely, like, I loved learning so I was actually thinking I'm gonna ... If, if I would have gone, and I think this is sometimes how crazy stuff happens, and then it changes, sort of, the whole course of your whole life practically. So, I think if would, if I would have gone from high school to university, I, I would, would have just been in that sort of mode, like, of learning being extremely good. So I guess I would have just went on with what I was doing, like meaning producing great academic outcome, so to say. So, then came this one year which I was completely bored so I, I got these doctors, um, writing me letters that I didn't need to show up. But in return I started managing money for them because I was already speculating on the stock market since I was, like, 15, 16, and I was not bad in it. So I became friends with all of these doctors. Even in the hospital I was working, and they were all like, "Well, we help you if you help us." Because this was the early days of the, what, you know, like this was 1998.

Steven Bartlett 13:29 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 13:29 1999. Like this was the stock market boom, whatever, so everybody wanted to be in it, so this was sort of my trade-off for these letters.

Steven Bartlett 13:39 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 13:39 Um, and so, and I can't be ... I'm, I'm easily bored so I always want to do something. So practically because, so I was not the type of person who went, "Okay, I have a free year now and I'm going just partying." Like, I was like, "Okay, I have a free year now, I'm gonna do more tutoring, yeah, and I'm gonna do managing money for these doctors," yeah. And sort of that completely switched my, how you say, course.

Steven Bartlett 14:03 Yeah.

Christian Angermayer 14:03 Like, so I was in this, I actually wrote a book, yeah, and tried to sell that. This didn't work out. But I did a lot of entrepreneurial stuff just because I had time.

Steven Bartlett 14:11 Mm.

Christian Angermayer 14:11 Yeah. And then when I practically went to uni then a year later, I was sort of mentally not anymore in that sort of learning world. I was in the, "Okay, I wanna be an entrepreneur world," and then I was, this sort of when I met, re-met, uh, actually two guys who funnily were my tutors in a scholarship I had had during high school already, like for, sounds awkward, but for highly gifted children. Yeah, so I was sort of in summer, uh-

Steven Bartlett 14:40 Summer. Yeah, summer school.

Christian Angermayer 14:41 ... summer, summer, summer school, I was at university, this is where I knew them from. We re-met kind of, and they were telling me about this idea and it just sounded great, and they were like my tutors in terms of I was like, "Okay, these guys are the pinnacle of biotech." Um, and then I, I was the one who said, "Let's do a company together." And, uh, we did, and this worked out really well and then I dropped out of uni. So this how, I think this how was the sort of ... I think without this one year in hospital or sort of one year in hospital, not in hospital, yeah, I would have stayed on a completely different path.

Steven Bartlett 15:14 I hear you talk a lot about you believe in, like, the serendipity of moments-

Christian Angermayer 15:20 Yeah, totally. Totally.

Steven Bartlett 15:20 ... and spirituality.

Christian Angermayer 15:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:21 Which almost seems surprising because you're such a, like, a scientific led person. Whereas you, do you, do you believe that things happen at the right time?

Christian Angermayer 15:28 Totally, totally. Actually I am actually very extreme with that so I, everything which has happening, literally everything-

Steven Bartlett 15:35 This conversation today. (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 15:37 Well, this conversation happens because we planned it. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 15:40 Yeah.

Christian Angermayer 15:40 But, like, the fact for example that we met originally-

Steven Bartlett 15:42 Yeah.

Christian Angermayer 15:42 Yeah. By our mutual friend, whatever. So I'm always, everything which is happening to me which I didn't actively say, "Hey, I need to have a meeting," or like, which is not in my usual rhythm, yeah, I always think, A, it's happening for a reason, and also it's happening for a good reason. Even bad stuff. I believe in this power of positive thinking but, like, more, like, people always then say, "Ah, this means, like, if you wake up in the morning, you're ... If you feel great, it's gonna be a great day." I think it's more deeper. I, I believe in this what, that there is this great book, Law of Attraction. Like, whatever you sort of think and rather how you think, not just the, I mean, sort of the essence what you think-

Steven Bartlett 16:21 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 16:21 Not like the detail partly but more the essence, and if you expect sort of good stuff to happen, you're sort of attracting that. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:28 You think there's a, do you think there's a spiritual force that attracts-

Christian Angermayer 16:30 But-

Steven Bartlett 16:30 ... or do you think your intention moves you in that direction?

Christian Angermayer 16:32 So, look, I'm very pragmatic, meaning I, I mean, first of all I dare to talk about this stuff because I'm very also scientific so I'm like, "Look, nobody will think I'm crazy."

Steven Bartlett 16:42 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 16:42 Yeah. Uh, maybe a bit. No, no, joking. Like, so, but the other thing is, like, there are multiple explanations and I don't really care about the explanation. You can have a very spiritual explanation, yeah, it's the force of the universe, yeah, and then you can have a very pragmatic explanation that if you continuously expect positive stuff then you look out for that stuff and then it's more like a, a, a numbers game or like a ... Yeah. But, and I don't care. Like, it, it works tremendously well for me since I'm 16. Yeah. And I had these, I had some very crazy things which go borderline which you could explain, like, sort of with statistics or whatever. Yeah. Um, so maybe too crazy for the channel. (laughs) But, but, but like-

Steven Bartlett 17:27 Nothing's too crazy.

Christian Angermayer 17:27 ... but there were some, there were some things where I tend to believe in the spiritual explanation, yeah, because they were, yeah, I think harder to explain or you can always explain them with statistics but, like, you know what I mean. Like, but I don't care. Like, it does work tremendously well for me.

Steven Bartlett 17:45 Okay, so going back to this company you founded with these two, your two sort of, like, university mentors. This company went on to be really successful.

Christian Angermayer 17:52 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 17:52 I think you said it's worth probably about 15 billion at last check, market cap.

Christian Angermayer 17:56 Today.

Steven Bartlett 17:57 Today.

Christian Angermayer 17:57 But, like, I sold very early, very, very early. I sold when we went public for a billion so it was-

Steven Bartlett 18:02 Do you regret selling?

Christian Angermayer 18:02 It was one, it was actually ... Pardon?

Steven Bartlett 18:03 Do you regret selling?

Christian Angermayer 18:04 Well, there is, there is a short and long answer. No, because, like, the short answer is no because, like, A, that money was the basis for the rest. Yeah. B, also people always mix up market cap and share price.

Steven Bartlett 18:16 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 18:17 So meaning that I sold at a lower share price than it's today but the share price is not 15X because they did capital increases, there was dilutive-

Steven Bartlett 18:24 Sure.

Christian Angermayer 18:24 ... stuff. Like-

Steven Bartlett 18:25 Sure.

Christian Angermayer 18:26 So, so-... anyway, long story, it was an amazing start. Yeah. So, um, yeah. Actually, it was actually the quickest biotech IPO I think in Germany ever. Uh, we IPO'd three years, three and a half years later after foundation. And for a billion, so it was, was everything. Um, and it was sort of, I dropped out of university before but it, like, was the sort of, sort of-

Steven Bartlett 18:48 Catalyst.

Christian Angermayer 18:48 ... catalyst I would say, yeah. So, I, I don't regret that. And, uh, and since then, sort of I'm investing and being an entrepreneur, I'm somewhat in between I would say. I

Christian Angermayer 18:57 actually ... Sorry, when I'm jumping, I had this one story, again, by the way, which is completely, you can-

Steven Bartlett 19:03 Serendipitous. (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 19:04 Serendipitous and, like, even a bit more. So, I remember it exactly. I was 14 years old, and I was, uh, with my best friends back then in Munich. Which is far away. I mean, for me this was like going, (laughs) going to the big city, like-

Steven Bartlett 19:20 Australia. (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 19:20 Yeah. Um, and we, so we spent the weekend with family members. And I really lo- ... I remember it, remember every single detail of the weekend, like what we did, and like, where, what. And we went to a bookstore, which is for Germans who listen, Hugendubel is a f- back then it was like sort of like a, I don't know, iconic bookstore, 100 years old in Munich. I think it's still even there, although books are dying out. Um, smaller. Um, so it's in the prime location of Munich. And so, I remember it. So I go into that bookstore, and there was this whole, how you say, promotion-

Steven Bartlett 19:54 Shelves.

Christian Angermayer 19:54 ... wall.

Steven Bartlett 19:55 Right.

Christian Angermayer 19:55 Yeah. With just one book, which, uh, which, which is, uh, the American Think and Grow Rich from Napoleon Hill.

Steven Bartlett 20:03 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 20:04 And you know, like, when in movies, like, the 14-year-old boy goes in and then the light is going down-

Steven Bartlett 20:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christian Angermayer 20:10 ... and then the hallelujah is coming? Sort of that, meaning there was no music, there was no light. I was like, "That's it. Think and Grow Rich. I need to have that book." So I bought the book, and it was practically my first kind of ... I mean, Napoleon Hill is not as spiritual as some others, yeah, but, like, that was my journey into that world of, let's say, spiritual-infused success. Books.

Steven Bartlett 20:35 How do you define spiritual?

Christian Angermayer 20:37 Well, there is like ... Napoleon Hill is sort of ... And I love it by the way, because they're all so old, like they're all out of the 1920s. So they, they don't have the zeitgeist which I think-

Steven Bartlett 20:47 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 20:47 ... in terms of success is rather negative, like. So it's sort of, like, raw American ...

Steven Bartlett 20:53 Corny principles. (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 20:55 Yes. Uh, exactly. Like, um ... And Napoleon Hill has ... This is why it was a great entry into that thing, because his view was, if you read, meaning the book starts that he says he got commissioned by, um, Andrew Carnegie, who was this steel magnate, to find out and do interviews. Which I think by the way you are doing in a certain way.

Steven Bartlett 21:14 Yeah.

Christian Angermayer 21:14 Yeah? With successful people, um, and find out if there are common traits, uh, is it traits, yeah, common denominators which make them successful. And he did that with all the famous people of his time from Andrew Carnegie himself, to a lot of other famous people. And then he made that into a book, and he's actually saying that the question ... He doesn't answer the question why these, uh, rules, so to say, work. He's more a neutral observer. And then the next one is actually, there's a guy called Dr. Joseph Murphy who wrote similar books, but more, like, with the spiritual undertone why these rules work. Same rules, sort of more explanation why they work, which went more into the religious world. And then you have all the other book, and Law of Attraction is nothing else, which is sort of the modern version and the key which is a sort of a simplified version of an anyway simplified version, yeah, of this. Of like ... But it's at the end it's always the same rules, some which think it's, they're God-given, some which say, look, again, this is statistics, whatever, but they do work. I, I deeply believe and, they, these things do work. Yeah. Um, which is-

Steven Bartlett 22:21 Like visualization, the, the, the way you think and-

Christian Angermayer 22:24 It's vi- it's visualization. Is that ... The main thing I think is two things. It's visualization, so I meditate in the morning and evening. But it's not really meditation, it's more like visualization. So I ex- ... I always have a plan for the week, for the month, for the year, for my life, yeah, and everything kind of did come true so far. So, I'm always thinking for qu- what could I add, like a wish list, yeah? And now again, you can say if you add something and then you, you focused on it, then it might come true because you focused on it. There could be a very banal explanation that it's relentless execution and nothing magic. And again I don't care. It's like, I'm like, well, like, yeah, it does work. So, and the visu- ... I think it's two things. It's visualization, and it's also these- that you have ... For example, I'm not, it sounds (laughs) very crazy but I'm trying to not have negative thoughts. So, and then there is a number of negative thoughts you're gonna have anyway because you have to deal with stuff when you run a business. But I, for example, I've never watched a horror movie since 20 years, at least.

Steven Bartlett 23:22 (laughs) Right.

Christian Angermayer 23:22 Because it gives me negativity. So I, and I, I go the extra mile. So I told, for example, friends when they are too much complaining, meaning I'm ... And the first one, friends can call for a problem. But then I'm like, "Let's go through the problem. That's the solution. That's what you're gonna do." But if they would repeatedly- because some people wanna not solve the problem, they wanna repeat the problem, then I'm like, "You can't call me again on that topic." Because no negativity, yeah?

Steven Bartlett 23:45 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 23:46 So I really have a rule.

Steven Bartlett 23:47 I love that.

Christian Angermayer 23:47 Yeah. So, no negative movies. I never watch a movie which has not a happy ending. So I have people check or I check, yeah, before: does it have a happy ending? No bad endings. Nothing which makes me sad, nothing which makes me negative, because I'm not, I'm not allowed in my own religious philosophy to have negative thoughts and feelings. Feelings are even more important than thoughts because I think they are the underlying driver, so. And it sounds now maybe cheesy and simplified but I think if you ... This is what I'm doing since I'm 14, and if you train yourself not ... And again, you will always have an sort of amount, because sometimes hard things happen, yeah, and I don't wanna-... pretend as if my life was easy, because I did have very hard times in business. But even in those times, I was lying in my bed, literally, and was like, "Okay, this is not fun what's happening right now, but it must happen for a very, very positive reason, because this is how your world works." And funnily, it always, the worst things in my life turned into the best ones. Yeah. So, because I, again, and you can say, like, maybe somebody would say, "Well, because he was persistent and he didn't fall." Okay. Then this is the explanation. Maybe there's a deeper one. I- again, I don't care. I can always

Steven Bartlett 25:02 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 25:02 ... come back. So, but I would tell everybody the two things emotionally is, like, don't have negative thoughts. Just focus on positive sort of thoughts. Visualize. These are the key things. Be happy.

Steven Bartlett 25:15 So many things there, you know?

Christian Angermayer 25:16 And dare to be happy, because most people are, again, don't allow themselves to be happy, and even think it's a little bit negative.

Steven Bartlett 25:22 Toxic.

Christian Angermayer 25:22 Again, yeah. To-

Steven Bartlett 25:23 So there's this whole thing happening on Instagram that I wanna come back to this point about this movies and, 'cause I think it's very much linked to your whole thing about alcohol and stuff, this-this happiness equilibrium you talk about. But just quickly on that point of being really positive and un-unapologetically positive and saying, "Listen, don't call me with the same problem twice. Don't interrupt my positivity," there's this whole movement happening on Instagram at the moment where there's such a thing as being toxic positive, it's called.

Christian Angermayer 25:47 That's bullshit. Like, I want be like-

Steven Bartlett 25:48 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 25:48 No, and like, getting on this point, like, because that's one, and I think, I mean, again, maybe, so I have two things. So maybe I'm sitting there, I'm already so old that there's another generation, I'm thinking about the other generation. And because I'm reading a lot, like, very old stuff, and you find Socrates complaining about the youth. So maybe that's a recurring thing, yeah. But I really think part, part of the millennial culture, of these victimization and always, like, blah, is this is so wrong, this is so wrong. Yeah. So, to pre-take the question, because then normally people say, "Well, you're saying that because you're rich, you're white."

Steven Bartlett 26:27 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Christian Angermayer 26:27 Yeah. So I was like, okay, this is maybe a point, let's go back, because I didn't talk a lot about it, but I'm happy to talk about it. Like, I grew up in this 90 people village. Yeah. I'm gay. I'm actually happily gay, but I look, I mean, I know I'm g- I've been gay since I'm 11-ish, roundabout. So, and I was looking at sort of that world I was growing up in, and I was like, "That's not gonna resonate here." Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:49 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 26:49 So seriously, like, and that's very, very, uh, very, uh, positive phrased, yeah? So in my school, people were saying, "Let's beat up gay people." And I was like, "That's not gonna end well."

Steven Bartlett 26:59 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 27:00 (laughs) So, but I didn't think that there's anything bad, by the way. I didn't even think these people were sort of wro- obviously they were wrong, but I was like, "They don't know better." I'm not like, "Ah, these are bad people." I was just like, be pragmatic. Sometimes life is not fair. Sometimes life is not nice. But you can decide if you react on it. That's one of the other points I really believe in, that you have this tiny millisecond in life on everything. If somebody is sort of rude to you, if somebody says something very bad, and you can decide if you're hurt or not. It's your decision, by the way. Nothing's gonna hurt you if you decide you're not gonna be hurt. Yeah. So then I was like, "They don't know better, and I can't..." By the way, and by the way, gay is not what defines me. So I was like, "Well, then I'm- I'm not gay for a while till I'm out of here." Yeah. I can't have... Because there are other things which define me, like friends, like, you know, like, you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 27:49 Sure.

Christian Angermayer 27:49 Like, it's not that I reduce myself to this one thing, and was like, "And now I need to shout it out to the world," and in return would have got beaten up.

Steven Bartlett 27:57 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 27:57 Like, I was like, just like, just don't do it. Like, but don't blame the others. Yeah. And then move away somewhere. Also, I- I mean, I mean this whole, like, don't try to change everybody else. Work on yourself and like, and your environment, and what you can change. Like, I could have started like, "Oh my God, my life is miserable, and I'm growing up in this village, and blah, blah, blah," and actually (laughs) talk about serendipity. I'm- I'm honestly, I'm, but again, I'm trained to see the positive stuff. Bec- if I look back, if I would have been straight, I wouldn't sit here, for a very simple reason, because I would have dated every single free minute I would have had.

Steven Bartlett 28:34 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 28:34 Like, yeah. And would have enjoyed that. Yeah. So, but I couldn't. So- so what did I do? I was working my ass off and learning all the time. So, and if I hadn't had the grades I had, I would have, and the first money I had, I would have never met these guys with whom I started a biotech company. Yeah. Nothing would have happened. I would have been an ordinary straight boy, most likely smart, yeah, but not uber smart, because sometimes it's smart and hard work to get grades. Yeah. It's not all ƒɑ̄ɓoɗɔɖɔɖɔɖɔɖɔɖo. So- so- so the, practically, the, if you say, like, the- the adv- how do you say? Adversary, or the negative thing being gay in a very hostile environment, and not talking about it, and focusing on other stuff, completely made my life. Yeah. In a very positive way. I- I would ne- I mean, yeah. I- I am so happy that this was the case. Yeah. And again, and everybody should look, everybody has, um, uh, limitations and negative stuff. But you should look at it and say, "They are there for a very positive reason, and something amazing will come out of it." I just need to have this continuous sort of expectation.

Steven Bartlett 29:43 And optimism, and-

Christian Angermayer 29:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:44 Yeah. And you have a real sense of, like, personal responsibility that comes across. Like, you'll take responsibility for yourself and your actions.

Christian Angermayer 29:49 But who else?

Steven Bartlett 29:50 Yeah.

Christian Angermayer 29:50 But it's like, who else should be like-

Steven Bartlett 29:51 The government or, you know, someone else.

Christian Angermayer 29:53 Oh, Jesus.

Steven Bartlett 29:53 You know what I mean?

Christian Angermayer 29:54 Then... We see that with the vaccine.

Steven Bartlett 29:55 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 29:55 Give the government a little bit of, uh, responsibility, and it goes totally wrong. You don't want anybody be responsible for you than yourself.

Steven Bartlett 30:03 So going to this point about the horror films, which I thought was somewhat connected to what I've heard about your rule with alcohol and cigarettes. You've n- I hear you've never drunk before, ever. You've never had a drink.

Christian Angermayer 30:12 Exactly. So there were two reasons for it. The- and they were connected. The one, again, by the way, the one reason was because I was actually thinking, like, "If I'm gonna be drunk, 14, 15, I'm gonna spill out I'm gay, and then it's over." (laughs) Yeah, so- so my social life of being the darling of the school-

Steven Bartlett 30:29 Imagine that day. (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 30:29 Yeah, uh, exactly. No, and I was also like, I was very nerdy, so teachers loved me, but I was also, obviously school speaker, speaker of the school, whatever.

Steven Bartlett 30:36 Yep. Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 30:37 So I was socially had a great life. So I was like, "No, let's not risk that." (laughs) Like, "No alcohol. You could say the wrong stuff." Yeah. So that was the one thing, and the other thing was that I always sort of ... because you do that as a child, or in general, and I think it's a good thing, like, if you have one weakness, in my case the weakness for the time was being gay, the others, you build on your strengths, which was like, "Okay, I- I think I'm kinda smart," and also, like, smart in terms of learning smart. I learned very easy. I always had the best grades. Yeah. So I was, I was sort of focusing on that, so I was also like, "Okay, alcohol could take that away from me," uh, because I thought it makes me dumb, which by the way it does, yeah, in (laughs) a lot of amounts. I still wouldn't drink. But so these were my childish reasons not to drink, and then I just decided, okay, I think I have the perfect equilibrium, like, uh, being always happy, having very good grades. Everything was perfect, so I was like, "I'm not gonna touch any drug ever."

Steven Bartlett 31:32 And you still haven't touched alcohol, cigarettes?

Christian Angermayer 31:34 No, so I have not ... I haven't drank alcohol. I haven't smoked a cigarette ever. I haven't smoked a joint ever.

Steven Bartlett 31:38 No.

Christian Angermayer 31:38 I have never take cocaine. I haven't done anything. Like-

Steven Bartlett 31:40 No comment. (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 31:41 I did, I did actually drink alcohol the first time when I was tw- uh, sorry, alcohol is right, uh, coffee, uh, the first time when I was 28, because-

Steven Bartlett 31:48 So you avoided coffee as well?

Christian Angermayer 31:49 I was even avoiding coffee and tea, yeah, because it was a drug. It was (laughs) almost like the- the very religious people thought I would've been a good Mormon. Um, so, um, but then coffee I started drinking when I was 28.

Steven Bartlett 32:00 There's something crazy here where you think, okay, so the guy that doesn't want to upset his equilibrium goes on to be the biggest psychedelics investor in the world-

Christian Angermayer 32:06 Well, but that-

Steven Bartlett 32:07 ... which is all about-

Christian Angermayer 32:07 ... I think there was a very good ground, because what happened is, so I had, uh, a discussion, or a dinner. It wasn't really a discussion. It was like a dinner discussion, like, we- where se- somebody set us next to each other, uh, with funnily the joke and said, "Oh, you..." The guy was a very, or is a very famous,

Christian Angermayer 32:25 um, drug researcher. Like, he's the David Nutt of Germany, like the, a drug, uh, yeah, uh, advisor to the government, da-da-da. Yeah, a neuroscientist. And somebody said, "Oh, you should two should sit next to each other because maybe you can loosen Christian up a bit, and he could drink a little bit of alcohol." So, so this is how I met Rainer. It's his name. Um-

Steven Bartlett 32:44 It's serendipity again. (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 32:46 Si- no, but, like exactly. Like-

Steven Bartlett 32:47 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 32:47 Again, if anybody, everybody else would have said... I remember that I was like, "Oh my god, that's awesome." Like, and everybody else would have said, "Well..." Again, in every single thing happening I see it's good for me. Yeah. So, um, so anyway, so we had this discussion and really, pfft, the short version is he was like, "Look, everything you s- think is bad is bad." Like, "so don't- don't touch it."

Steven Bartlett 33:10 Alcohol, and-

Christian Angermayer 33:10 Exactly. He actually showed me these, and, uh, whoever is watching, and maybe, I don't know if you can put it into the- the-

Steven Bartlett 33:17 Notepads, yeah.

Christian Angermayer 33:18 Yeah, so it's like, it's this famous, very famous, but it's so, um, to the point, I mean, he's, Da- David Nutt in the UK wrote a whole book about the misperception of drugs, but this one, like he had this one chart which Da- David Nutt made and Rainer pulled it, uh, pulled it off in the internet, where you can see sort of the harm, um-

Steven Bartlett 33:37 Of each drug in the world?

Christian Angermayer 33:38 Yeah. So how much harm.

Steven Bartlett 33:39 I've seen it.

Christian Angermayer 33:39 Uh, there was this harm scale.

Steven Bartlett 33:41 I've seen it.

Christian Angermayer 33:41 And practically on number one is alcohol.

Steven Bartlett 33:43 I've seen it.

Christian Angermayer 33:43 But even in a, in a holistic approach, alcohol is the worst, and then closely followed by heroin, which by the way the media used a little bit against David Nutt, which was highly unfair, because the headline, I remember, I think in The Sun or whatever, was like, "Oh, guy says heroin is better than alcohol." No. The thing is, like, they're both very, very bad. Like, but alcohol is as well. We have these-

Steven Bartlett 34:04 And this is the chart that says the harm to you and the harm to others.

Christian Angermayer 34:06 Both. It's- it's- it's-

Steven Bartlett 34:07 Yeah, in one chart.

Christian Angermayer 34:08 ... in one. Exactly. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:08 Yeah.

Christian Angermayer 34:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:09 So yeah, a chart that shows the harm that these different drugs have on you and others, and alcohol-

Christian Angermayer 34:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:13 ... is the worst of all.

Christian Angermayer 34:14 Exactly. Alcohol is the worst, but closely followed by heroin, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:17 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 34:17 And closely followed by, um, crystal meth or whatever. Like, everything is bad. And I really like ... if there is one positive outcome (laughs) of people watching that, don't do it, but don't do alcohol, don't do heroin, don't do crystal meth, don't nothing. No. There is no... by the way, and I'm the most, again, pragmatic person, because what I was talking with him was like, is there any drug, there could be a drug where you say, "Oh, it has a little bit of downside, but it has enormous upside," and then you can think for yourself. Again, you are responsible. I don't think the government should be responsible. To think for myself, is there any upside of me taking that risk? Because if I go in a car, I came to you in a car, so I took a risk of dying. Meaning, very low, but there was a risk. But I was... it's worth to sit with Steven-

Steven Bartlett 35:03 (laughs) Okay, good.

Christian Angermayer 35:03 ... and do that podcast. Like, no, but everything we do in life, by the way, people should look at it as like risk-return. Yeah. So maybe somebody says, "Oh, if I smoke a joint once in a while, it makes me so relaxed." Anyway, but you should be aware of the risks, and I think people aren't, especially not with alcohol. Yeah, and if you then still decide actively, "I'm gonna enjoy my glass of wine," then I think it's great, but you should know it. Anyway, so but at the end of that scale, it said, um, um, pretty much at the very end is mushrooms, magic mushrooms. Like, before the very end is the second sort of easiest or second lowest risk is- is LSD, practically the psychedelic group of- uh, of drug. And he was like, "Christian, like, I can't tell you what my host told me to tell you, that you should try alcohol. Don't. Meaning I can also tell you're not gonna die, but like don't do it." Yeah. Uh, "But you should do actually magic mushrooms." And I was like, "Look, you clearly insane."

Steven Bartlett 35:58 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 35:58 Like, "I'm- I've never drank alcohol, da-da-da, and I'm not gonna touch an illegal drug." Yeah. And he was very, very, uh, (laughs) persuasive, because he was like, "Look, first of all, you do biotech. You started your career in biotech. Like, I send you, um, I send you all the research I did, or I do," but also, which was very cool hindsight, I didn't even value it back then. He was like, "I did my PhD with famous Hofmann, who invented LSD." So- so Rainer was really plugged into like the old guard of psychedelic, uh, luminaries. And he was like, "I send you all what- what he did. Like, read it," because there were all these studies. It's not like, um...... crazy idea, meaning, again, actually magic mushrooms, or the ingredient psilocybin was used as an approved medical drug in the '50s by Sandoz, actually, very, uh, at least in Germany, famous, um, um, brand, um, for, uh, for depression. And what ... he was like, "Look, it was medical. It has no risk, as you can see. I tell you, as in the other studies, at least read it." And again, I'm very curious, I was like, "Well, send me, I'm ..." So there was actually, again, serendipity. And so, and now comes the biggest serendipity. Because like, so for one year, I was just, like, not meaning ... it's not that I had it on my mind every day. I was ... it was there, like, I read a little bit here. And by the way, again, I know a lot ... There's even a book about that kind of, uh, which says what some people believe is destiny is just, like, if you're aware of a theme, yeah, it's a little bit like when I tell you, "Don't think of the blue elephant or the white," or whatever, you think of it, like... So there is this one book, I can't remember the name, which, but again, would be fine for me, like, because again, it works, was like, if you're aware of a thing, of a theme, then it pops up everywhere. You'll see it, yeah. Yeah. So over a year, there were not a lot, because it was completely not in the public domain. But like, there were once here and there, I was like, "Okay, read something again," or whatever. And then, uh, more or less exactly one year later, I was with my best friends, who actually have a stake in Atai, so they're happy. With my best friends in the Caribbean. Uh, so disclaimer, it was a place, uh, where, where it's legal. Um, and they had magic mushrooms. And they had it like, it, it looked like (laughs) mushrooms. Like, this was good because I, I'm so hypochondriac and frightened of everything, so I would never have taken anything which didn't look like mushrooms. (laughs) So, but these were dried mushrooms, like, so I was like- You could see it from the ground. I even ... I was like, "Okay, that looks real." Like, and they were like ... And I trust them. They're my best friends. Yeah. So big shout-out to Landon and Julian. Yeah. So I trust them anyway. They were like, "We grew it ourselves, so like, safe. We know what we're doing." Yeah. Um, and I was like, actually calling Rainer, and- The guy you'd met in Germany? Yes. Yeah. So I'll not mention his last name because I don't know if he w- (laughs) if he maybe works still in a very famous job. Uh, and I was ... He was actually saying the sentence, "Look, as your doctor friend, do it. It's the best place, best people. You know it's real." Set and setting. All that. "E-e-e-everything is perfect to it." So, so I took all my courage ahead. T- Um, I was really like ... And it's ... And it sounds now, I can't say how nervous I was and sort of both anxious and positive. Like, where I was like, really like, not t- Maybe people say, "Oh, he's talking about magic mushrooms all the time. It must have been an easy decision." It was not. Yeah. For days. And I was like, "Okay, let's do it." I still know exactly the point on the beach, yeah, uh, because we're going there every Easter, and somewhere I'm gonna put a big magic mushroom statue here. Uh, I really will. I really will. I know you will. Uh, I know the guys- Yeah. ... who own the island, so I ... Yeah. They already know of it. Actually, the guy who owns the island is now a shareholder in Atai as well. (laughs) Of course. (laughs) So, (laughs) everybody is. Literally- Yeah. ... everybody is. So ... (laughs) Um, so I did it, and it was the single most meaningful thing, full stop. And by the way, it confirmed everything I just said. So because what a lot of people report is that, um, that, um, you ... It's a very spiritual experience. And in that case, it was not just a spiritual experience, but it really confirmed 100% my view on life, which is, by the way, interesting, because if we look now at people ... Because a lot of people ask me, especially successful people, they are like, "Oh, I've read somebody takes it, and then he's wanna be a farmer in Brazil." By the way, which was my biggest fear. My biggest fear was like, "I'm gonna come out of that, and I'm gonna change my whole life, because I realize that, I don't know, I wanna do something else." Hindsight, I tell everybody that, "Look at me, and look at others." We have both. We have people like me who come out, are very, even more happy, but it, for me, it was a very big confirmation of what I'm doing. Yeah. Um, because, um, yeah, I don't

Narrator 40:48 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 40:49 ... you know, because like it was a confirmation like, "Okay, you see the world in the right way. Everything, what you do, how you do, you can work on it." So I got a lot of ideas how to make it better, but like, sort of the message was, "You're on the right path." So some other people come out, and the message is, "Look, you have to do something completely." Yes, what is s- why is it different? It's actually the same. What it does, I think one, sort of, th- how you say? One, uh, description of, of psychedelics is, in general, they ... You realize, or you, um, you recognize yourself and all your, sort of positive and b- all, all your dreams, all your trauma. And everybody has a bit of trauma. It's not really ... So everything, and then ... And some people, and then I was always, hindsight, I can say now, I was right. Like, I, or I was right. I, I, I was good, and I was always living a very honest life to myself. Again, doesn't mean that I say, "Hey, I decided, for example, not to tell anybody I'm gay," but that's not ... From my point of view, this was not a lie because it's my decision. Mm-hmm. But it was not a lie to myself. Yeah. It was an active decision to just make my life a little bit easier. You weren't suppressing it, you just- It was not suppressing it. Yeah. I was just like, pragmatically, yeah. Oh, by the way, this was also- Yeah. ... very simple. There was also nobody to date. Yeah. I was very simple, like, "No." It was risk, risk mitigation. No, exactly. Risk, risk-return. There was no upside- (laughs) Yeah. ... because there was nobody who would have appreciated that, yeah? Yeah. And if there w- would have been a hot guy, and I was like, "He's gay. I'm gay," I was like, "Hey." (laughs) Immediately, like, but there was no upside, but a lot of downside. Anyway, but what I'm saying is like, I always lived a very honest life, um, to myself. Mm-hmm. Yeah? Again, this doesn't mean you have to shout everything out. And this was confirmed. So other people who don't live an honest life to themself and lie to themself, and maybe tell themselves that they are happy with X, Y, Z, they might realize on a magic mushroom trip that they're not, that they need ... And this is the other people who change, yeah? But so it's very dependent on ... Yeah, I ... But it was just one aspect of so many positive aspects, and then sort of, I, I ... Immediately after the trip had sort of the idea, "Okay, this should be actually legal." I was actually-... not even the- the first impetus was not that I should m- make a company because I was very sure people must work on that stuff because it's so powerful. And what I then found out, actually it took me two years, I was looking around, like, that there was none. Then we did it ourselves.

Steven Bartlett 43:13 Just to go back to that point though. Y- you, you categorize that moment, your first trip as the single most meaningful experience of your life.

Christian Angermayer 43:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 43:21 To date.

Christian Angermayer 43:21 Full stop. Nothing comes close. And maybe I would add plus the follow on trips over the last year. So, it's not just this one trip I would say as well, but I would s- I would, I would summarize my psychedelic experience and I still, like, try to do a trip once or twice a year in a country where it's legal. Yeah, I would summarize as the most meaningful, sort of holistic experience I've had in my life. Full, yeah, for sure, like, uh ...

Steven Bartlett 43:50 You do this trip, um, on the beach with your friends. You, you think to yourself, you know, this must be legal. Fast-forward, you get a call from one of your friends called Mike.

Christian Angermayer 43:59 No, it's way cr-

Steven Bartlett 44:00 It's a bit of a round.

Christian Angermayer 44:00 No, it's way crazier. A, it's way crazier.

Steven Bartlett 44:02 Okay.

Christian Angermayer 44:02 Again, super serendipity. So fast-forward for two years, I was very, very carefully looking around and actually not telling a lot of people about it, which was wrong. And if I would have gone on like that, I wouldn't sit here again. Meaning at least not ... No, I would sit here maybe, maybe, but, like, not talking about mushrooms or about psychedelics. So for two years, I was kind of extremely holding back. So I told my closest friends. Actually, the ones who knew me very well saw that or positive, like, my parents were like, "Hey, you became an even nicer child." We have an amazing relationship, but it became even better. So my mom was very quickly saying, "Something happened in your holiday." Yeah. And I was like, "Hmm. Yeah."

Steven Bartlett 44:43 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 44:43 So, so, um, so, so the ones who knew me well, but, like, I didn't shout it out and I was actually very, very c- careful and shy because it's, like, technically-

Steven Bartlett 44:54 Stigma.

Christian Angermayer 44:54 Yeah. And back then the, by the way, don't, let's not forget, like, we're talking about it also now so easily because all the books came out. We have the success, like, Compass is listed. Like, now is completely different than ... So anyway, so for two years, I was very, like, low-key. Yeah. And then I had bef- and again, this is, like, maybe the biggest financial serendipity, uh, or

Narrator 45:15 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 45:15 ... seren- like message of the universe if you want to see it like that because for two years, I was sort of, like, just telling friends, very close friends. And then I had, um, one other trip within a holiday trip. The main message on that trip was, "Christian, this makes you so happy, you have to talk to other people about this. Don't be shy. Just good thing will come out, things will come out if you talk about it." So I had a real mission. So I got this real mission on that trip to, sort of, be open about it. And then actually from that holiday, I was flying ... Literally the week after, I met a very close friend and business partner of mine, Mike Novogratz, um, who's big in finance. Like-

Steven Bartlett 45:59 He's huge. Huge. Yeah.

Christian Angermayer 46:00 Yeah. So but he's, he's not, what I wanna say, he's not the guy who would talk about mushrooms normally. And I wouldn't have had. But he was my test case because I had the mission. (laughs) The mission was, don't be afraid to talk about magic mushrooms because it's gonna be good for you and the world. So I met Mike, and he literally, Mike is always like that, "What's up?" Because I think I do cool stuff, like, from ........................ stuff. So a lot of friends are always like, "Hey, what's new? What's up? What are you investing in, da-da-da?" I was like, "Mike, you won't believe it. I just (laughs) had a mushroom trip and this was amazing and I wanna talk, tell you about it." And he was like, "That's, whoa, mushroom." Like, I, I remember Mike said the, the sentence, like, he hasn't talked about it, hadn't back then, for, like, 20 years because especially in the US, a lot of people, it's like a college thing. Like-

Steven Bartlett 46:44 Party ............................

Christian Angermayer 46:44 Yeah. Uh, and he was like, "Oh, I've, 20 years, never heard about it, eh, again. That's since college." So I told him all of my experience on that trip, um, and in general .......................... So and he was, like, very interested. Yeah. And so the next day, literally the next day, my phone rings. Mike is on it. And actually, he said it. Yeah. He said, "Look, Christian, this is the weirdest coincidence. So since 20 years or I haven't talked about psychedelics for 20 years. Yesterday, you were in my office talking about nothing else than psychedelics. And this morning, my sister," or his sister, so his sister called him, so, "My sister called me and she's on Bali with this crazy couple from London who told her they wanna start a company which is working on bringing magic mushrooms back in the legal realm and they need somebody who's financing them and nobody wants to touch it."

Steven Bartlett 47:35 Right.

Christian Angermayer 47:35 And I was like, "This is, this is such a coincidence. You're in London, they're in London." Like, yeah. And these are George and Katja, the, the founders of, of Compass. Yeah. And I was like, "Connect me immediately." And I remember this was January and then we met when I was back and they were back from Bali in February, um, 2000 and, uh, '17. Yeah. And I, they tell me f- if we talk about, like, within the meeting, I was like, "Okay, we got- we're gonna do that together. That's, that's what I've waited for since two years." And again, if I hadn't taken the decision to openly talk about it, um, I wouldn't have told Mike, I wouldn't have met George and Katja, we wouldn't sit here, at least not sit here talking about this one.

Steven Bartlett 48:15 And the magic mushrooms were the thing that told you to talk about it.

Christian Angermayer 48:18 Exactly. It's a trip.

Steven Bartlett 48:19 And you en- you end up being, you know, the single biggest investor in the space. The space which is now really sort of m- main, becoming more mainstream at an alarming rate, a, a sort of a category that's exploded from a financial perspective. Um, and you've, you've, you've fa- co-founded and invested in two, the two biggest, sort of, companies in this area. Atai and Compass Pathways.

Christian Angermayer 48:39 Exactly. So practically, I've co-founded both. In Compass I was more the seed investor because it was George's and Katja's idea and I added actually a very close friend of mine, Lars, as the third co-founder and I was the seed investor. But sort of I was there-

Steven Bartlett 48:52 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 48:52 ... even before the company existed. We were sitting in my, in my living room and planning it. And then when I realized-... how positive or h- it was actually, easier is the wrong word, but it was sort of I had, I had expected more hurdles. Yeah. And it's maybe sadly actually the time which is helping us because there are so many people suffering and it's become sort of also financially, sometimes life is very, the world functions very pragmatic, like in the m- in the moment something becomes a big crisis, also financially, yeah, the-

Steven Bartlett 49:28 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 49:29 ... yeah, um-

Steven Bartlett 49:29 And it creates opportunity.

Christian Angermayer 49:29 ... the regulations, the FBI. So, anyway, whatever it was, it was the right time, so Compass quickly actually got FDA, um, fast track designation which was a big thing, stuff like that. So and then I actually realized, oh, there are more psychedelics out there than ... meaning everybody's always almost using magic mushrooms and psychedelics as the same, but like we have the headline psychedelics, a group of drugs, and psilocybin, the active ingredient in magic mushrooms is one of them. So when there are more of them from MDMA to LSD, ketamine, ibogaine, whatever, and, and Compass wanted always to focus on, um, on psilocybin. So I was like, "Okay, then I'm starting a tie as sort of a platform where we actually bring on more, uh, more of these compounds to explore them for mental health issues."

Steven Bartlett 50:21 Of all the compounds in a tie, and I know there's a lot of them, right? I think you've got over 13 compounds, different-

Christian Angermayer 50:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:26 ... psychedelic compounds within a tie. Um, we've talked a lot about m- magic mushrooms and that the active compound in magic mushrooms for anybody that doesn't know is psilocybin, which is what Compass Pathway does. Of all the others, and I know this is like, I've heard you say before this is like choosing your favorite child, which ones of the psychedelic compounds is incredibly compelling to you and really stands out as being able to have a really significant impact?

Christian Angermayer 50:48 That's really hard to say. And, and I, I really mean it because, like, it really, because they all have, all, all compounds we work on have a sort of reason to exist or positive like have a, have a place in treating mental health issues hopefully.

Steven Bartlett 51:06 Tell me about ibogaine then.

Christian Angermayer 51:07 Yeah. So, so then now it's, what I want is, now is the question is what is your, wha- what does somebody sees as the biggest problem? So name me the problem you think is the worst, and then I tell you sort of which drug is the best, like kind of. So, so I think ibogaine is this, is, is interesting because also because ibogaine goes against addiction, and there is actually almost nothing else which works for addiction. So addiction, and it's s- we talk about here severe addiction, like especially to opioids and heroin, is sort of, I don't know if you can say it on an English podcast, but it's really fucked up. Like it's like, that's one of the really severe mental stuff, like where most people have, um, how you call it, like, um-

Steven Bartlett 51:51 Relapse.

Christian Angermayer 51:51 ... relapse.

Steven Bartlett 51:52 Yeah.

Christian Angermayer 51:52 Like, it, and then you, it's also one of these sort of things if you look at, I don't know, families and friends where somebody's addicted, sort of it's very like, it's a cancer in, in, in, in a social environment.

Steven Bartlett 52:04 In the family.

Christian Angermayer 52:04 So it's sort of, it's, it's, but any, but, or I won't even say any mental health, it's like it's always affecting others as well. But I think addiction sort of stands out in a certain way. And ibogaine is the only drug we know which potentially, I always have to say with all these drugs potentially, because we are about to prove it once and for all with scientific terms or with scientific framework, FDA sort of, uh, compliant, but ibogaine has the potential to really cure addiction with one trip. Yeah. And there will be a massive game changer for the whole opioid crisis. Uh, but even alcohol addiction, like it's not just opioids. Like they are ... And yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:42 You know, you're trying to, you're trying to make people's lives better, right? You're trying to get them ... It almost seems like, you know, because you've, you've been gifted enough to be happy your whole life, you, you're doing a lot to make sure other people can be happy on one end. But the other thing that you're doing, which also kind of blew my mind when I met you, is trying to extend life. You know, you've got Elon who's like trying to save life on Earth, but also take us to a new one. And it seems like, you know, Apeiron, your investment company, is trying to make

Steven Bartlett 53:06 the life we live more joyous and fulfilled, but also trying to extend it. And the work you're doing with life longevity, I actually find maybe even more bonkers. (laughs) Like, when I first heard about psychedelics, I was like, "Really?" And then I spent six months, nine months learning, and I was like, "Oh my god. Like I get it." But life longevity for me is like, "Really? We can really, we can really extend our lives?" And your, you've got companies which are working on that challenge. So tell me about life longevity. Is it possible?

Christian Angermayer 53:39 I think, well, okay, let's ... So, so, so let's phrase it correctly, like because even I, if I want to sort of some- say something very, um, pokey, I'm like, "Oh, we're gonna live forever." Yeah. That's not gonna happen for an accident reason. Meaning yes, you could say maybe we live forever if we really upload our brain to our computer. But that, not that I think that's completely impossible, but I think then we're not human anymore. That's a different discussion. Like, so but, I would say as long as we stay fairly human, meaning having a body, having sort of the human set that we have, yeah, there will always be an end. Let's start there, because the worst case if you live hundreds of years, you're gonna have an accident somewhen- somebody blows you up. You, you have a ... By the way, it's gonna, it's a, uh, as a side note, I think it's gonna change once we get older and older, it's gonna change the way how we look at risk. Because y- I already start avoiding crazy stuff, because I'm like, "It's not worth it." Again, risk return. Like I have this one colleague I always try to convince. He's 50 and he drives a motorbike. And I'm like, "You shouldn't do it." Like the sort of statistical risk is so big of driving a motorbike. And his answer is, "Well," because he's still thinking his, his life expectancy of 70, he's like, "Well, but I'm exchanging 20 years, if it happens, against my biggest passion."... and this is a trade-off worth it. And I was like, "Well, A, I thought it was stupid." (laughs) But if you, if you're... It's okay if this is your opinion, 20 years against the risk of losing it. But I tell you, like, it's not 20. You already ... if you're 50, I'm gonna get you up, or we're gonna get you up with longevity science to maybe 90 or 100, by the way, in a good way. So, would you exchange 50? And then, suddenly you see, okay, then he starts thinking because ... so, and now think it a little bit further, like if you say, "Hey, our natural life experience, someone will be 200, maybe we stop doing stuff we're doing now because it could sort of..." Yeah. So, but I, uh ... back to your question, like, longevity never means immortality. Because again, as long as we stay kind of human, because there's an accident risk, yeah. By the way, I also believe spiritually again that we don't wanna live forever. I think part of being human, again, as long as we stay there, and we can talk about that as well because another thing I'm thinking a lot, maybe we don't stay human in our current form. But as long... So, I think two part of being human is having an end, because that makes everything we do worthwhile.

Steven Bartlett 56:07 Yeah.

Christian Angermayer 56:08 So, I just don't want it now. (laughs) Like, I wanna have more of it, but I think the, the sort of the lim that there is a time limit on being human is actually which makes us thrive, yeah, and which makes us-

Steven Bartlett 56:19 Everything special.

Christian Angermayer 56:20 ... everything special. So, I don't think I, I want to take that away. I just want to extend the, the joy, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:26 But then doesn't it just become relative again then? So, if you live to 150-

Christian Angermayer 56:29 By the way, so, so what I really believe what we get in the next (hands tapping) maybe like 30, 20 to 30, it's come, it's, I think it's gonna come way quicker than people think, is that we're gonna get life expectancy up to, to a time or to a, to a, to a, to a size, to a magnitude where we want to die. And I think it's even like this will be a range, and some people might already say, "With 100, I had it all. I had enough birthdays, enough, um, Christmases, and I'm..." so some people wanna maybe live to 300. But I think we're gonna give people that optionality sooner than we think. And then, I think dying will be like, this is my vision, like it's a celebration. I would someone say, "Look, guys, I had it all. I love you, love life, but I really think I'm ready for whatever comes." Maybe comes nothing, I don't know, but like I have an expectation. But like, yeah, but whatever it is, I'm gonna finish it now, throw a big party, say goodbye to everybody, and then go out on my own terms, on my own time. I think that's gonna be sooner than we think.

Steven Bartlett 57:36 You whispered there, "I have an expectation."

Christian Angermayer 57:38 Well, I think there is another life, like I think it's a continuous, uh, cycle. But that's now a spiritual question like, but like I, I very much believe we have an eternal soul. Yeah. I don't even think there is a number. But first of all, I, again, I come back, which gives me a lot of the... I don't believe in the Christian thing that we have anything to prove. That's already starts because it means you're not worthy, and you have to prove yourself worthy. Like, it's like you... I think everybody should be deeply happy and do exactly what he, he or she feels is the right thing to do. Now, by the way, again this is, I think, what people realize on the, on the psychedelics, is like they... I always like to say, like, which is maybe a good way to describe a psychedelic trip, like since we're young, and again, maybe my parents were like better than other parents in avoiding that. But since we are baby, people start telling us what we should do, what we should not do, how we should be, how we should think, how we should do life. So, and I always say like, "There is your soul somewhere," like (laughs) whatever form of your soul is like.

Steven Bartlett 58:38 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 58:38 But there is somewhere the level of you. You s- ... And again, the problem is when we have this discussion, and what I wanna avoid, why I'm sometimes so blurry, is that if you start using religious terms, then some people might be set off-

Steven Bartlett 58:51 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 58:51 ... yeah, or pushed away. Because if I use the word soul or God, then, uh, a Christian person might have a different reaction than a Muslim person, than a, um, than a Hindu person, yeah. Interestingly, a lot of people who went through psychedelics have sort of the same description, because so, so anyways, this is why trying to use as neutral words as possible. So, let's call it soul or inner you or whatever. And then, you have all these sort of external, s- sort of, um, garbage almost, what other people put on you, yeah. And, and I think some people literally lose sight what they really are and want. So, and that I think was always very good. So, what I realized under my trip that sort of ... so what happens under a trip, sort of all this garbage is taken away. So-

Steven Bartlett 59:40 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 59:40 ... you really look at you, but you in your real, naked sort of form. Like form, I mean like you recognize yourself, all your fears, all your wishes, all your whatever, yeah. And interestingly, it was, for me, it was still a great experience, but it was not so different. So, which told me-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:03 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 1:00:03 ... okay, I did a good job before psychedelics to sort of be, again, true to myself. And I, I don't believe in what, what some faiths, uh, say that, that, "Oh, you have to be worthy," because you are worthy, yeah, and you are great. You just should live the life as sort of it is fit for you. And again, this is for everybody it's different, but you need to know it, yeah. So, so, but to con- so this is my belief and then I... so and be- so, so there is no... okay, I have... it's not like a computer game, where you have to reach a level (laughs) and do certain things and then come to the next one. I just think it's like an endless positive sort of cycle of experiences, yeah. So, and I definitely know that somewhen I'm gonna, wanna go to, to the next, yeah level is the wrong word, to the next experience. Yeah. Um, but for now I want to actually extend this one.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:52 A lot of people don't get to live, and this is what I was thinking is like this, this idea that people will get to a point in their life where they say, "Do you know what? I've had enough. This has been great." I ju- would you- do you genuinely believe you'll get to a point where maybe 150, whatever-

Christian Angermayer 1:01:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:05 What do you think?

Christian Angermayer 1:01:06 I think someone it's gonna happen. Like I, maybe it's very late, meaning I hope for, but again, I think this is the ultimate, meaning I'm already pissed about the government interfering in, in my stuff in any way, but the biggest interference is death-... it is not my- I don't choose the time, I don't choose like... And we need to change that, so I think the biggest, sort of liberty everybody has, will be choosing his or her own death.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:30 But you'll always be curious. The world will always be changing.

Christian Angermayer 1:01:33 Well then great-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:33 There will always be something-

Christian Angermayer 1:01:33 ... then I can go on, like a long time.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:35 I, I, I, I, I'm trying to understand if I bel- if I genuinely believe that Christian Angermayer will ever get to a point where he's bored, because you're such a curious-

Christian Angermayer 1:01:42 That, but it's great if that is the case, I really don't know. Like, (laughs) I mean, I- but I'm just saying, I, I believe like, again, I think there is a moment everybody will come to that. Maybe it's very, very great, like, I'm working on it, like-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:54 And you don't think death is a na- is a, especially at th- that age, is like a natural thing? I hear you talking about it as a, as a bug, or as a disease or something.

Christian Angermayer 1:02:04 Well, that, that's... I would say definitely aging is a disease. Something is wrong. So something is... I know how the 20-year-old Christian looked and was, and felt. And by the way, my DNA is the same like it was when I was born, like it was when I was 20, like it is now. But something of the same DNA... It's like a little bit we know how the house, it's the construction plan of the house is the same, and some way the (laughs) sort of minions who, who translate the construction plan into the building, yeah, change it, and not to the better from age 20 on. Like I get gray hair, whatever, like so, but we know still it is there. Like, the original source of information is there, our DNA, so we just need to find out, it is super simplified, what changes the translation of our DNA into mistakes, and into what we call aging. Yeah. That's a very simplified view but it shows you that it's not so natural, yeah. Because it's not that your DNA is... If, if it would be natural maybe your DNA would change, we'd say, "We can't change that." Yeah, but it's not, like your DNA is the same 'til you die. Like, so we just need to make sure that the translation happens like when you were 20. So by the way, I deeply believe not just that we can slow down and stop aging, we can reverse it. Because again, I know how Stephen, I mean, you are still obviously at your prime-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:29 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 1:03:29 Yeah, um, but I know how Christian in his primes looked like, and-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:33 He's still in his prime.

Christian Angermayer 1:03:33 Yeah. In f- you know what I mean.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:35 (laughs) yeah.

Christian Angermayer 1:03:36 And we can bring him back. So-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:37 Some, somehow-

Christian Angermayer 1:03:38 So, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:38 I was gonna say, some animals live for a couple of days though, so I, I take like, I look at, take an evolutionary perspective on this and think like, you know, there's some like flies that live like four days, but it's enough time for-

Christian Angermayer 1:03:46 But maybe we are there at the moment to escape the evolutionary velocity. Maybe that's the pinnacle where we sort of start becoming... And I know, because I don't mean it like in a blasphemic way, I think we're meant to be like gods in our own way, yeah, and we start now to go to the sort of source and construction of life ourselves, and I think that's an enormously curious thing. And like, yeah, maybe that's what we're meant to be, and rather on a positive side, that this is not blasphemy or whatever, but this is like what God set us up for, so to say. By the way, every single religion, it's a very fun... Nobody ever, I don't think I, I love by the way, uh, and you know we can't say today that there is a big thing coming out about religion and, and science of religion, but I always loved that. I always was funnily drawn to the mystical side, and the religious side, and a side of what we discussed on let's, what I call spiritual side, I was always, always very interested in the history of religions. Um, and interestingly a, one sad actually, happy and sad observation is that, in the very core, all religions are the same. They all preach the same good stuff, be nice, be nice to others, and then once they become an organization, the shit starts, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:58 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 1:04:58 So, and, uh, and also one, what most religions have, just going through, but mo- yeah, literally most religions have, the big ones, is that they at the very beginning say that, "We are a part and a mirror," or what is it, um, what's the English term, that, "We are an image of God."

Steven Bartlett 1:05:15 Mm-hmm.

Christian Angermayer 1:05:15 And we don't talk about that because now everybody's like, "Oh, if you, if you want to live forever," what a lot of people are, a- again, if you wanna defy aging, and there are a lot of people that, "Oh, you wanna play God," yeah, this is a lot of the then-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:27 The rebuttals.

Christian Angermayer 1:05:28 Yeah, the reall- And I was like, but maybe that's what we're meant to be because if I go to the Bible, it says, "We are the image of God." So maybe we are meant to play God because that's what we are, in a, in a philosophical way. So I don't think it's not e- ethically low, I think it's the ultimate actually challenge we have to solve, yeah, um...

Steven Bartlett 1:05:49 The other rebuttal I would, I thought the first time I heard about the, the possibility of extending life was that, you know, we'd have a really aging pop- population, where we'd all be... So it's interesting you talk about reversing aging, but we'd all be 170 and slightly like, you know, slow and unproductive-

Christian Angermayer 1:06:02 It doesn't make any, it doesn't make medically or, uh, sense, we won't be 150 and super old. It doesn't make sense. You can't extend lifespan that much without rejuvenation. It comes at this... thanks God. Nobody (laughs) wants to be like... Because by the way, that's what most people fear though, why they... It's interesting how many people reject the idea of living very long, ƒ30 I find it hard to believe ) living very long, but the, one of the very banal reasons is that they automatically think, okay, if Christian would succeed in making us live to 150, they take, okay, I know a 90-year-old granny from, of mine, and she's not in good shape, and now they add another 60 years and they're like, "No, that's not what I want." Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:45 Quality of life would be-

Christian Angermayer 1:06:46 But that, exactly, but that's not what's gonna happen. In the moment we can push life expectancy way further than 90, it, it goes hand in hand with rejuvenation. And then more people want it.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:58 And what timeframe do you expect?

Christian Angermayer 1:07:00 I think we gonna see step- really, really tangible steps forward the next 20 years, yeah, and then let's say 20 to 40 latest. By the way, which is not that far, yeah, and um, and also, um, the, um, this is gonna change society. I mean everything. And interestingly every politician I talk to thinks like, "Well, that's far away." And I was like, "No, it's not. (laughs) It's not that so far away than you think," and like, it's gonna affect us sooner and we need to talk about it, about, about social systems, about anything, yeah. Uh, this is gonna be one of the massive-... lack, but I- not a negative way, by the way. I think it's gonna be good. But like, I'm an eternal optimist, like, um, but like in a ... it will be a massive change for the world. By the way, let me drink this delicious drink. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:07:52 (laughs) What's it called?

Christian Angermayer 1:07:55 (laughs) Should we put it like in a commercial, in a-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:57 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 1:07:57 We should, like, bleep that in. It's like, hopefully it's Huel.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:01 Huel. Yeah, yeah.

Christian Angermayer 1:08:02 Huel. Yeah. Human Fuel.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:03 Human Fuel. Human Fuel.

Christian Angermayer 1:08:05 Okay. It's a very good name.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:06 Yeah, it's a very good name.

Christian Angermayer 1:08:07 Who came up with that name?

Steven Bartlett 1:08:08 Julien Hugan.

Christian Angermayer 1:08:09 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:09 Yeah. (laughs) Um, so switching, 'cause, uh, in fact, the, uh, the topic, the topics of conversation we've discussed are super interesting. But personally, the things that I find most fascinating about you are your just like ridiculous, ridiculous work ethic.

Christian Angermayer 1:08:27 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:27 And I've talked to some of your friends. I spoke to Aaron, I spoke to people around you, just to confirm what I thought. And the intensity and the amount you work, I think is just like staggering. I think I'm really hardworking. I've seen you in action around the clock, over the weekend. The fact that we're doing this on a Saturday, I don't normally record the podcast on a Saturday.

Christian Angermayer 1:08:44 Well, it's a hobby. It's like, it's like having fun. It's not like work. But okay, yeah. No. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:49 My point is about, you know, in culture people talk about this term work/life balance, and I think you've kind of responded to it there.

Christian Angermayer 1:08:54 Very easy. There shouldn't be a work/life balance. There should just be one continuous hobby, that's my view on it. People should love what they do in a way, obviously you do different things, and I love more things. So, but like, there, I, I always said since I'm 16, or actually 14 since I have my tutoring, if I would call it work/life balance, then I have a shitty life. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:09:16 (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 1:09:16 Because it's just work. But my work is my life, and I love it, and it's integrated. And most of my friends I work with, and like even like friends who didn't ... This is how I came to the movie business, because just like I had friends who were actors and were in a movie business, and then I was like, "Maybe we should work together. Maybe we should finance a movie." Like, it's like, yeah, I don't want to see it as a-

Steven Bartlett 1:09:37 Separation.

Christian Angermayer 1:09:37 ... separation.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:38 Quick one. Starting from the minute the lockdown is lifted, we're gonna start bringing in some of our subscribers to watch how this podcast is produced behind the scenes. Means you get to meet the guests, meet myself, and see how we put all of this together. If you want that to be you, all you've got to do, hit the subscribe button. Let's talk about more personal things. So relationships. How does someone who works as hard as you find any t- I'm, I'm, I'm presuming you value what relationships can bring you?

Christian Angermayer 1:10:04 Well, a complicated topic. (laughs) It's work in progress.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:08 Yeah. I don't know. Yeah.

Christian Angermayer 1:10:08 Like, um, it, like-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:08 Welcome to the podcast. The diary of a CEO. (laughs)

Christian Angermayer 1:10:11 Oh, no. Uh, no, it's like, uh, no, that's, that's work in progress. So that's like, uh, because obviously like I'm so much in love with my work that,

Christian Angermayer 1:10:19 um, that it's always, it's hard I think for another person. Although I think I can try to be very uplifting, because I would try, uh, say the same what I told you, is like I would tell every partner, "Like you have to find ... You can't expect from me to get, give you meaning. You need to give yourself meaning, and then we can be happy together." Yeah. But I, this is unfortunately not how a lot of people work. Like, so it's very easy that sort of ...

Steven Bartlett 1:10:45 I have a quote on Instagram, my best performing quote ever. It says, um, "If we're dating, I want to be your second priority. I want your first priority to be you, your passions, your future. If we're happy alone, we'll be happier together."

Christian Angermayer 1:10:56 Yeah. That's, uh, I mean, so yeah. And I'm happy alone, by the way.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:58 Yeah. I, I, I-

Christian Angermayer 1:10:59 I'm also like an introvert/extrovert. So people think I'm very extrovert. And I can be, and I want to be, like can, I like to host parties and dinners and do things like that. But then I wanna be alone actually a lot. So-

Steven Bartlett 1:11:12 Do you value, and tell me the value of a relationship in your view. Of like a really good committed relationship. Do you value it?

Christian Angermayer 1:11:21 That's a complicated question. (laughs) So, um, because, because if I say no, it sounds brutal. And I, I don't-

Steven Bartlett 1:11:29 What's the truth?

Christian Angermayer 1:11:29 No, no. And I don't mean it. Like, I, I, I think it's more, the answer is more complicated. So I built myself that I, that I'm sort of very like independently, so, so I value relationships a lot. So that's the real answer. But I, I'm not in the concept that one should stand out. So I rather have groups. So I, I believe that, or believe, like I do have like ten, but not one, like ten very, very close friends, who most of them I have since very long time. I actually extremely value relations. But I'm not saying, "Okay, there is