Addiction, Childhood Trauma And Depression With Joe Wicks (The Body Coach) | E60

Steven Bartlett 0:00 This is the first podcast I've done this year where we had tears. Um, and not just once. And, uh, I don't really know how to introduce this conversation. I guess, I guess the thing I want you to know is that things aren't always what they seem, and, um, really that humans all feel the same. We all feel the same emotions, the same peaks, the same troughs. And, uh, no matter what it looks like on the- the outside, things aren't always what they seem. I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music)

Steven Bartlett 0:44 Visualization, that's a very relevant word, I think, to start this conversation. Because in our last conversation last year, when I asked you what you wanted to be remembered for, what you wanted to do next in your career, you told me that you wanted to have a legacy for getting kids all across this country up, exercising, and really into exercise. Sort of similar to how Jamie Oliver completely changed the way we view, like, school dinners and things. And I remember Jamie Oliver was the reason I was eating apples instead of Mars Bars when I was younger. And then, just like a couple of months later, the pandemic happens and you're getting millions and millions and- of kids in this country up, dancing, and into exercise only a couple months later. It, like, boggles my mind. I've never seen someone say something so big, such a big ambition, and then only like a couple of months later do it on a scale which nobody has ever done it before.

Joe Wicks 1:42 That's what happened. And I remember when we met and we talked about that moonshot thing, that idea of, like, having a goal so big and so out of reach that you feel like you can never- you know, almost never attain it. And that was my vision. It was to have that legacy of making an impact, you know? And I do think about Jamie Oliver. He's had amazing success as a chef, as a- you know, an author. But I think about the Jamie's School Dinners, the man who went into the schools all over the UK and said that this isn't- this isn't enough. Our kids can eat healthier. And I feel the same about school fitness and exercise and PE. Not just about obesity and the diabetes thing, but I think about our children's mental health. And I said to you that I want to have a legacy where I can create absolute, you know, national change and national, um, create awareness around fitness. And, you know, lockdown happened, and within, you know, 18 weeks that happened. So it was almost like a 10-year dream happened in 18 weeks. And I'm so proud of that, that I- I've reached that many people.

Steven Bartlett 2:34 Take- take me to the start. So lockdown happens. Where does this idea come from? Like, what- what happens? How does... And then I want to hear, like, (laughs) when you saw the numbers, the amount of people tuning in every day and the impact it was having, how did all of that feel?

Joe Wicks 2:46 It was an intense moment in time. But it was also something I- I did visualize, and I did- I had been working on. So I'd been visiting schools, I'd done the UK tour, I went to Ireland, Northern Ireland. I'd- I'd visited schools. I'd worked out with hundreds of kids in these schools. Um, that Monday I was supposed to go on another tour. Me and Nicky were gonna take the camera. You know, it's my brother, Nicky. Um, and like I've always said, there was no TV show. There was no money. There was no budget. It was just me and Nicky going and doing what we love, which is connecting and I suppose reconnecting with the mission and purpose that I have. Because when it's all digital, I do sometimes feel like it's just numbers, and is it- is it real people? So I have to go and visit the schools, and actually meet the kids, and do it. So on the Monday I was supposed to go out on the road. We had about 15 schools chosen. And Boris announced, you know, there's gonna be this lockdown. So it was 12:15 AM, I was laying in bed on the Thursday night, and I text Nicky, 'cause I looked at my WhatsApp the next day, and I text Nicky saying, "I've got this idea." Um, and honestly, I saw everything. I saw a hashtag. I saw a logo. I saw the name. I said, "It's gonna be called PE with Joe. Every day next week, do it. Let's just try it for a week, 9:00 AM, um, Monday to Friday." I announced it, and loads of PR. You know, loads of school newsletter would- you know, school newsletters were Twit- tweeting it. And I was doing ESPN, CNN, like global PR. And I thought, "This is gonna be really big," but still had no idea how many people would tune in on the Monday. Um, and on the Monday we went live. I stepped in front of that camera, and I was really nervous. And 850,000 I think it was-

Steven Bartlett 4:08 Fucking hell.

Joe Wicks 4:08 ... live streams. And I thought, "Wow." Like, if you think about how many kids that could possibly be. And then day two was the biggest one. So day two was 954,000 live streams, which is a- a world record it turns out.

Steven Bartlett 4:19 Concurrent.

Joe Wicks 4:20 Yeah, concurrent. 954-

Steven Bartlett 4:21 It was- it was almost a million people watching at the same time.

Joe Wicks 4:26 Yeah. It- it blew my mind. And I- I realized there and then that that was, like, families, that was kids, it was schools. It wasn't, like, individual people. So really it was probably tens of millions of people a day.

Steven Bartlett 4:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 4:35 And I felt this amazing sense of purpose. Like, I was there for people that- when they needed me the most. Because everyone was locked in, you know, whether you had children or not, you were, like, confined. You felt restricted. Your mental health was gonna suffer that day. And I was there, like, to- to be there and just have fun. And I never once... One thing I was really cautious of, never mentioned lockdown, never mentioned COVID, or the- or, you know, anything to do with that. It was like it was a safe 30 minutes where we could forget about things. I put the music on, we were dancing around being really silly. And that was a gift. That was my gift to the world. It was just a bit of laughter, some feelgood energy, and a- and a real boost in their mood. When that finished, I know that they were happier afterwards.

Steven Bartlett 5:10 And- and you must have got a lot of calls from the big sort of production companies and TV companies wanting to, like, buy it or- or to- to bring it to TV, right? Sure, yeah.

Joe Wicks 5:18 Within- within a few days... So you remember I told you the story about the Channel 4 thing? I was trying my hardest to make the- the UK tour thing and a documentary around schools fitness, but they never had the budget, that no one could do it. Well, within a few days, the head of Channel 4, like the top guy, I can't think of his name, called me up personally and said, "Joe, what you're doing is amazing. We'd love you to stream the workouts on Channel 4." And I- I was like, "Dude," like, "I'm doing this on YouTube. I've got kids in Sri Lanka and South America and India,"

Steven Bartlett 5:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 5:42 ... "and, like, even like Madagascar and the- the Maldives taking part in these workouts. I can't do this on Channel 4. Like, I need to be global." And I'm so glad I stuck with that because that really allowed it to go global. It re- it allowed everyone all over the world to take part. And don't forget, I was getting a million live streams, but by the end of the 24 hours, there were seven, eight million views.

Steven Bartlett 6:01 Crazy.

Joe Wicks 6:01 So total, 80 million views on the 18 weeks. So 80 million individual views. But how many families or schools were doing that? So it's tens of millions of kids. And that was my dream, so I just can't believe it happened. But I'd built up that trust over eight years, you know, as the Body Coach, as Joe Wicks-

Steven Bartlett 6:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 6:17 ... as this mission-driven person.Anyone could have had the same idea, but maybe they wouldn't have had the same reaction because, like I said, I put out so much love and energy and positivity in visiting these schools that those teachers knew I was going to deliv- deliver a really fun and safe session for their kids.

Steven Bartlett 6:31 80 million people is, you know, when you sat down with me last year and we had this conversation, you said you wanted to, to do this nationally, right? You said you wanted to get kids exercising nationally. There's only about 60 million people in the UK. You managed to do 80 million people all around the world on a global level, but also at a time when people really needed that kind of energy the most, at a time when the country was, uh, you know, fearful, um, people were trapped indoors and not exercising as much as they, they could've been.

Steven Bartlett 7:02 So, I, you know, we can talk about the PE With Joe thing for a long time, but the thing that actually fascinates me-

Joe Wicks 7:08 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 7:09 ... more is what happens afterwards? So you've just... That goal you set out to achieve, you achieved it quick. How does it feel after?

Joe Wicks 7:20 Well, you talk about that gold medal syndrome, you know, of people having this, like, coming off tour or coming to- back from the Olympics and they have this f- kind of feeling of, like, f- feeling flat or de- not depressed maybe, but confused and lost. And that's what happened. I moved into this new house and I thought, "I've got this lovely house. Why, why am I feeling flat?" And for the first two weeks I was there, I was missing my old house in Richmond because my children were born there. PE With Joe was in that living room that you interviewed me in. And it was like this... I left this energy behind and moved into this new life and I was like, "Why am I feeling like this?" And I realized it was because I, I'd lost my purpose. I'd been disconnected from that audience every day. Um, so when I felt that, the first thing I do, I jump on my Instagram, like I said to you, I used to do DMs and voice notes, and I reconnect with the messages, I read the YouTube comments. So that I know two million people a month were doing YouTube, um, workouts before the lockdown. I'm now getting six to 7 million views a month. So that's real people that have changed their habits, that are still doing it. Um, and it reminded me why I did it and also I had wonderful letters. I had two, two or, two or three... I'm gonna say it was probably near, like, 2,000 or 3,000, like, letters and cards and things. That's, that seems mad, but I had this stack of, um, things to go through. So I sat in my office for two days, you know, laughing, crying, like, feeling this love. It was like this wave of love when I realized what I'd actually done during that time. It wasn't just about me getting kids exercising, it was like widows, it was single parents, it was people with anxiety and depression living on their own. And in all the, all the different places in the world, it was really emotional. So I did feel lost, but I've reconnected with that because now I'm still doing my YouTube workouts, I'm still delivering free content. And although there's this new product and this app coming out, I'm so passionate and committed to doing that one workout a week that I will never neglect that free content and that audience that are there that still may never buy my app or my, my books.

Steven Bartlett 9:03 You talked about buying a new house, probably a bit of a dream come true in many senses. Um, but again, you, you speak about it being kind of anti-climactical, like in, like, it not feeling... Like, that expectation that when you've got that big house, 'cause I've seen the house, it's, it's a nice house, you should've felt like confetti should've come down and you should've felt amazing and... But you kind of described it like you didn't feel that like that.

Joe Wicks 9:25 Yeah. I kind of thought, you know, I was, I was gonna move anyway, but it was like the, the, the lockdown accelerated because we had paparazzi outside and I wasn't used to that, you know. I wasn't used to being... having, like, photos taken of me in India when we walked to the park. And we lived on a main road, so it's quite public and people would knock and, and sort of say hello and it was fine, but sometimes you just want a little bit of privacy, like when you switch off. So we found this lovely house and it's, you know, it's got a nice driveway, it's got a beautiful back garden. And when I was in there, I just kind of thought, "Why aren't I double as happy? I've got more space. I've got more garden." But I genuinely felt like I left that part of me behind in that house that was so purpose-driven. It was all about PE With Joe, it's where my kids were born. So I suppose it's a lesson, and I really talked about that. When Boris announced the lockdown number two and I'm sitting there in my kitchen, I've got all this space, and I'm thinking, "It doesn't matter if you've got a massive house or you live in a one-bedroom flat, we all feel the same right now. We all feel very disconnected, very lonely. You know, we miss our friends and family. We need to socialize, we need events, we need live music, we need dinners." So it, so it's just a really important message that it doesn't matter what situation you're in, we're all feeling the same. And I, I really wanted to share that message. And it, it definitely helped people-

Steven Bartlett 10:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 10:27 ... open up the conversation because we're all, we're all struggling, you know, mentally with this, with what's going on. And yeah, you know, you've talked about it before, you know, ordering the car and the house, and I think we're driven by these things and consumerism, like, we, we, we're always wanting the next thing. But what I've realized during this lockdown is I'm happy exactly where I am with just what I've got.

Steven Bartlett 10:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 10:44 And that's a nice feeling. It's really nice when you realize that another Rolex, another car, even another motorbike or another holiday, it doesn't, it doesn't give you what you really think. And I think people listening that are desperate for that life-

Steven Bartlett 10:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 10:57 ... I think we all will come to the same conclusion eventually, whether you're 30 or 60, we will all level out and realize that what's important is our friends and our connection and our, and our love to the people around us.

Steven Bartlett 11:07 It's a, uh, as you say, it took me a long time to learn that lesson. And I... The, the phrase that I always come back to-

Joe Wicks 11:11 Hang on, you're only 27, aren't you?

Steven Bartlett 11:13 Something like that. (laughs)

Joe Wicks 11:13 Yeah. You, you haven't taken that long. You've, you know, you've, you've got... I think you're very... When I listen to your podcast, I think you've got a lot of wisdom. I think you've spoken to a lot of people and you, you've absorbed a lot and I think you really take that into your own, um, your own life and philosophies, I think.

Steven Bartlett 11:25 I think it... Do you know what I think it is? I, I, I've also been really, like, self-analytical, as in I will have a thought and I'll have a feeling and I'll try and grab onto it and hold that out in front of me and go, "Why are you feeling like that?" So the day w- I... Uh, is you kind of alluded to there where I realized I was gonna be very wealthy and I start looking at cars and houses, I get this feeling of, like, the, the feeling you described with your old house, which is, "I think if I get this, I'll actually feel poorer in some way. I'll lose something." Like if I... And, and then I thought to myself, "Well, if I get this one, what's next?" If you get a Lamborghini Aventador, the, the best fucking sports car, what's next? And then I was like, "I'm gonna just keep go..." And then me realizing that if I, if I always start to believe that my happiness was somewhere else, in a promotion, in a new car, in a big house, it will never be here.

Joe Wicks 12:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:11 If I, if I believe that I can't possibly be happy because I don't have X, I will never be happy because once I get X, it's like a mirage or a rainbow, it just moves out further in front of you.

Joe Wicks 12:21 Yeah. And you see that with a lot of celebrities, a lot of musicians, like talented people that get everything so young. You know, they get to that point where they start, you know, they go into depression and anxiety and it can re- you know, manifest in drug addiction or, you know, all kinds of things. But yeah, it's, if you're constantly looking for the next thing or, or, or almost living in the past with old memories and what you used to have, like you talk about down contrasting and up contrasting, like-

Steven Bartlett 12:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 12:41 ... that thing you said changed my life. Just thinking, stop thinking about what you did last year, how you went to America and you went to Coachella. Think about what you're doing today and not worrying about that. And it really just brings you to a, it's like a medita- it's like a meditation. It's like-

Steven Bartlett 12:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 12:53 ... a thought, a simple thought where you can actually start to bring yourself back to the moment and like, like I said, I, it could be a quote, it could be a podcast, it could be an interview. Little things just sometimes it opens up a whole new thought process, doesn't it?

Steven Bartlett 13:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 13:05 And you start to think, "Actually, do you know what? That's amazing." And also, I interviewed Fearne Cotton and she said one of these lovely quotes is, "Nothing in nature blooms all year round."

Steven Bartlett 13:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 13:14 You know, where we're constantly like, "I need the number one podcast. I need the number one app. I need to have, um, you know, the best book out. I need, everything's gotta be number one. I need to be doing everything every month for the year." But I've realized that in nature, like nothing blooms all year round. And that again made me realize it's okay to have quiet months and not be in the media. Chill out, relax, because something good will come later on in the year. You'll bloom again in during summer. And I think, so li- little things like that really open up my mind and I'm evolving quickly, I think, since I've become a parent as well. Um, you start to be much more empathetic and you start to understand and you feel a lot more when you've got kids. I don't know where it comes from, but I'm, I, I think a lot more about other people's feelings now more than I ever used to.

Steven Bartlett 13:51 I actually wrote down, um, when I was watching your video that you did during the lockdown where you start discussing your own mental health and you're saying, "I've just watched Boris's announcement and I'm feeling really shit." But in that video you also say, "I'm feeling shit at the thought that there's loads of families out here that are gonna lose their jobs and stuff." And I wrote in my notes, so ............................ Like, incredibly empathetic. Like, you are incredibly empathetic. And it kind of, it made me question like, where, where does he get that from? 'Cause that is a trait I noticed in you last time as well. Most people in the middle of a lockdown when they've just found out that we're going into our second lockdown don't think, "Oh my God, all these other people that are gonna lose their jobs." And you, I could see it in your face, and I know you're a genuine guy 'cause I've, I've been with you, we've gone for dinner, you know, outside of the podcast, I know who you are. I'm like, "He genuinely, genuinely cares."

Joe Wicks 14:36 I think it's grown in me. I think that feeling has grown in me. But where I used to be like, you know, when you're a teenager, when you're a young adult, it's all about you. It's like me, me, me. And then you, you know, you find a partner and you start to realize it's about your partner and then it's about your kids. But I think, yeah, like the more I realize that we're all connect... It's that thing of connection, you know. It comes from sometimes a meditation or a feeling of like, we're all, we're all in the same experience. And, you know, I've, I've been very lucky. Like, the Body Coach brand has grown. You know, my YouTube audience has grown. Like, the signups to the plan is-

Steven Bartlett 15:04 It's loaded, mate.

Joe Wicks 15:04 It's all gone insane.

Steven Bartlett 15:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 15:06 And so I think about other people and small businesses, I, I genuinely care about. Fa- I think about families that have run like restaurants for 30 years or had, you know, properties or had like amazing nightclubs or, you know, amazing restaurants that are suddenly going under. Like that, it affects me. And that really, when I stop and think about all the pain and suffering in the world, it really brings me down. It really kind of brings my energy down and then I have to kind of exercise or do something positive because I start to feel a bit sad because that is the world right now. You know, there's billions of people that are going through a really difficult time. And so my reaction to that is trying to inspire them to move, to eat well, to exercise. 'Cause I know that it can counteract any kind of, you know, financial pressures or stress that's going on. If you exercise and you lift your energy and you e- and you put good food in your body, you know, even temporarily you're gonna feel better and it's gonna change your mind. So that's my gift. You know, I try and inspire people to exercise and feel good for, you know, even if it's once a day or once a week, it's enough to change the way you feel about yourself and your life.

Steven Bartlett 16:00 We went for, um, a little dinner a couple of, couple of months back, I don't know, uh, I think just after the first lockdown, before the second one. Um, and I was, I came home really inspired on one end, but just I couldn't shake this thought. And I'm, I, I don't hate to go back to it, but I couldn't shake this idea that you had just had the biggest achievement of your life with this PE, I mean outside of your kids, in my opinion. (laughs) Um, out with this PE, PE with Joe format that just shuck, it just spread across the world, right? And the Joe I met at that dinner was somewhat despondent, as you say, like confused and, um, as you say, like really unsure about why you weren't feeling on top of the world and also really unsure about what you'd do next to, to kind of like top that, I guess. And it really stayed with me. It stayed with me for like a couple of weeks.

Joe Wicks 16:54 What did you think? Did you think I was gonna be more like energetic and, and, and proud and like-

Steven Bartlett 16:58 Every-

Joe Wicks 16:58 .... ambitious or what?

Steven Bartlett 16:59 E- every, every person on planet Earth would've thought, "Okay, so Joe set out to achieve something and he smashed it out the park. He is on all of the TV stations." Congratulations on the MBE, by the way. That's a whole nother conversation.

Joe Wicks 17:10 Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 17:10 We'll get to that.

Joe Wicks 17:11 That's mad, isn't it? Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:11 That is absolutely mad.

Joe Wicks 17:12 Can't believe that one.

Steven Bartlett 17:13 Um, he smashed everything out the park. Um, he's got to be just absolutely buzzing. We were sat at the dinner and there's people coming up to us asking you for pictures halfway through the dinner as well. But you weren't like that. And even though I've wr- written about this in my book at great length about gold medal syndrome and gold medal depression, and my own experiences, I still, when I saw that in you, I was like, "Fuck, people need to hear about this." Because you were, I'll be honest, right? That was the lowest I've ever seen you.

Joe Wicks 17:42 Really?

Steven Bartlett 17:43 Yeah.

Joe Wicks 17:44 I suppose. I, I mean, look, I was-

Steven Bartlett 17:45 I was concerned.

Joe Wicks 17:45 No, I mean, look, I was, I was really looking forward to seeing you and I was, it was, I was, you know, we hadn't been out for a while, but I think coming off the back of that PE with Joe, I was emotionally drained, I think. You know, physically I can do workouts all day.

Steven Bartlett 17:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 17:55 I done a-... they'd have done a 24-hour workout.

Steven Bartlett 17:57 (laughs)

Joe Wicks 17:57 Like, I can move my body. But I think the energy of performing, like going on stage, stepping in front of the camera when I wasn't in the mood for it, when I had to, like, pick up every... I was literally carrying everyone's emotion and energy and trying to... And I do believe in energy, that we carry it and we push it, and we sometimes hold negative energy. We sometimes hold things locked up from years ago. And I was just, I suppose, fatigued, emotionally fatigued at that point. But like, I've bounced back, you know. I'm, I'm back in the zone. I'm filming workouts again and I'm, um, I'm refocused, like I said, on the, on the purpose and, and the mission, which is like fitness for all. And I've got the app, is one option. I've got the books, that's one option. But then also Instagram, YouTube, you know, there's so much free content because I don't want anyone to feel like The Body Coach is this premium brand and I can only get to them through that paid subscription. No, I'm still gonna give you one workout a week on YouTube.

Steven Bartlett 18:42 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 18:43 And I'm still gonna do my Instagram recipes. I'm still gonna share my daily stories and motivate you. Um, and every now and again, I might mention the app, but it really is just like for people that wanna give it that extra push, you know, and try something a bit different.

Steven Bartlett 18:54 So as we park P with Joe, you know, last time you sat down here, you, you've put, put out into the world your, your goal, your ambition, and it came true. So I think, you know, let's (laughs) 10th fete again. Uh, what is your, what is your goal and ambition now going forward in terms of your purpose?

Joe Wicks 19:09 Well, I think what I, what I ach- what happened that I achieved was a short term thing, you know. It changed behaviors but they had to. They had to do it because they were locked in. Parents had to keep their kids moving. Um, you know, schools weren't providing PE, there w- ev- everything was closed. So it was a temporary thing, it was the start of a movement, but it's, the legacy is still continuing that movement. You know, continuing to visit schools, continuing to speak to heads. And I don't see it as a government thing, 'cause I've realized that you can actually just speak to local schools and they have the ability to change their curriculum. Well, they have to follow the curriculum but they can change their timetables. So if they wanna fit a 15-minute workout in once a day with their children, or do it, um, you know, at the end of the day, they have the ability. So again, it's about continuing to grow that mission to cr- create content, maybe as a separate platform whi- which schools can use. But it isn't over because like anything, motivation drops. It moto- it drops for me, it drops for you, um, different times of the year. And with young people, they're very engaged at, at the early ages, in primary school, but when they start hitting their teens, they're in their devices, they become more resistant to exercise. So the challenge becomes tougher as they get older.

Steven Bartlett 20:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 20:12 So my mission now is to continue the schools work. Um, when I can, go on the road, start visiting schools again, creating content. You know, um, hopefully creating a TV show around that. You know, like, Jamie Oliver's School Dinners was only six episodes. In my head, it felt like it was weeks and months and months of content. So you know, I wanna do the same thing, I wanna create a really amazing series, whether it's, um, you know, Netflix or BBC or Channel 4, where I can continue that conversation to get one teacher or one dinner lady or one, um, head of a school to believe in the power of exercise for their children. So I really feel like I've just started. There's so much more to go.

Steven Bartlett 20:46 I think you have as well. And you know, so like, we... Uh, one, one thing I've learned from doing this podcast and speaking to guests like you is that, and even Eddie Hearn who we had on last week, is how pivotal and how defining our early years are. And you

Steven Bartlett 20:59 are like a really fascinating guy in so many ways. We talked about your empathy, your achievements. Um, all of these things suggest that your... because they're such extraordinary things, or out of the ordinary things, suggests that you probably had quite an out of ordinary childhood. Whenever, whenever I meet someone, uh, who is achieved out of ordinary things, I always think, "Okay, tell me about your childhood." So how was your childhood, Joe?

Joe Wicks 21:24 Oh, so you think, you don't think it was a stable childhood, you think there was something a bit more that motivated me on to...

Steven Bartlett 21:28 Just, I, yeah, I, I think, I think, um... And it doesn't necessarily mean it was like a really bad childhood or a good childhood. I alwa- you know, and I actually did childhood psychology for two years, which people don't know about. This is why I'm so fascinated by like all the Freudian, um, psychology and, and how one thing that happened... I've got a friend who told me that one thing that happened when he was a kid, he still remembers to the day, to this day. And he holds that one comment that someone in his family made to him as the reason for his, probably his single biggest flaw in his personality. And it was just one comment on one day from a parent.

Joe Wicks 22:00 Yeah, that's, that's, that's amazing, the p- and it's the power of, um, yeah, the power of a negative thought. Like if someone says, "Your teeth are a bit crooked," or, "You've got skinny legs." Like...

Steven Bartlett 22:08 Yeah.

Joe Wicks 22:08 Someone could say you got lovely teeth your whole life but you still think your teeth are crooked.

Steven Bartlett 22:12 Yeah.

Joe Wicks 22:12 And that's happened to me in the past. Like I got Invisalign because one, a girlfriend said to me once, you know, "Your teeth are a bit wonky," or-

Steven Bartlett 22:16 Really?

Joe Wicks 22:17 ... you know. And, and someone said about, you know... This is a true story. When I was 16, I had glasses but I was really embarrassed, I was really shy about it. And the, the girl I was going out with said... I said something like, "I wonder if I'd look good in glasses?" And she, she said, "Oh no, you'd look silly in glasses." So I never wore them for two or three years.

Steven Bartlett 22:31 Crazy.

Joe Wicks 22:31 I used to hide them in my car, drive to her house, take them out. And you know, it's that thing of, we really take on these, these thoughts and it can really affect our confidence. Um, that defin- definitely happened to me as a kid. But I suppose my childhood was very chaotic, you know. It was very unstable. My dad was a drug addict from a very young age, so you know, that was... It was a bit like, you know, he was there one minute, next minute he was in rehab, next minute he was, he was back on the gear, you know. And he, my mum would take him back and it was all good, and then they'd be arguing and... You know, I lived in a council flat with, um, really thin doors. So it was like, um, it was like plywood, and so there, there used to be holes in the wa- there used to be holes in the door, 'cause I remember, um, I used to think, "Why are there holes in the door?" Like... And I, I look back now and I notice 'cause Mum and Dad used to fight and argue, and you know, it'd be like, it was a symbol of aggression and impatience and intolerance, and then he'd be gone. And so I always... I didn't have a positive role model in terms of, in terms of a male, and also when it comes to marriage. You know, my mum and dad never got married. If they were married, they would've been divorced 100 times. So I had similar beliefs around marriage and commitment to you, like when I hear you talking about it. Like I, I suppose I had the same feelings. When I was 25, I didn't believe that people stay together, people are committed, that marriage is gonna work, that, you know, people get through tough time because it was always like, when it got shit and tough, my dad would piss off and we'd be back on our own again. So you know, again, it was a tough childhood but also I had a happy childhood. I don't, I don't feel like resentment. I don't look back and be like, "I wish it was different. I wish my dad was there." Because we got a great relationship today. But it definitely...... affected me. You know, the destruction of drugs in my household and what came with that, all the chaos, m- really put me off ever wanting to smoke weed or drink alcohol. You know? I was so scared that I was going to enjoy it and I was going to become an addict. I thought it was a genetic thing. I thought, "I don't want to be a drug addict," so I wouldn't go near it. So it definitely, um, it definitely shaped me, you know. And when I look at where my love and generosity and empathy comes from, it's my mum. Like, my mum is- she's so kind and loving and she's so- always putting other people first. And I think that definitely shaped me as a- as an adult.

Steven Bartlett 24:33 I didn't actually know this stuff about you before. I didn't know that you'd been through such a, um, tr- traumatic early childhood. And as you were saying that, I was thinking, "Fucking hell, it's remarkable that you are who you are and that you have such feelings of empathy and you're just such a kind human being, having gone through such a, you know, violent and traumatic childhood." And I guess that is credit to your mum. Um...

Joe Wicks 24:58 I suppose, yeah. I look back when I- I get asked in interviews now, like, "Where- where did your generosity and your kindness come from and your kind of desire to want to help others?" It's about help. I- you know, I'm happiest when I'm helping others. So if I know I'm helping someone or I'm helping millions, I'm really happy. And so th- when it- when it stops, I felt, "I'm not- I'm not d- I'm not- I haven't got my purpose, I'm not valuable." But I've realized I am still valuable, I'm still helping people. Um, but yeah, my mum, you know, she left school at 15, no qualifications. She met my dad in a squat, she had my brother when she was 17. Then she had Nikki, she had me when she was 19. She's like a kid. And when we used to go places, like people used to say, "Is that your sister? She looks so young." You can't imagine, like... Um, but somewhere along the line, she taught me values, she taught me respect. You know, if I had to be home at ten o'clock on a Friday night, I was home at ten o'clock. My mates were down the park till 1:00, 2:00, 3:00 a.m. 'cause their parents let them run loose.

Steven Bartlett 25:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 25:45 And they were the ones graffiti-ing, they were the ones smoking weed, they were the ones that got in, you know, in trouble for s- you know, crimes and whatnot. So my mum was really... Considering she wasn't parented, her dad left her when she was a kid, so she was- she was abandoned when she was a baby. So I don't know where her love comes from, but she's got this ab- ability to just love and- and be so generous. And when she went to university, she went back, she said, "I want to study." She- she went to become a social worker. So the first thing she done with her life was go and help people that had- you know, young offenders, people that had been through abuse, and- and all this stuff. So i- it has to come from her. It is emotional, 'cause my mum... So I took my mum for dinner, um, the night before it was going to be announced. And I said to her, like, "We're celebrating my birthday tonight, aren't we?" 'Cause it's m- we- we were having a late birthday, you know. But it was something else.

Steven Bartlett 26:27 Your MBE?

Joe Wicks 26:28 Yeah, my MBE. And I said, "Mum, um, I've got an MBE." And she- we were in the middle of Lucky Cat restaurant in London, and she burst into tears.

Steven Bartlett 26:34 Really?

Joe Wicks 26:34 And I'm like in the middle of the restaurant crying with her. And she's like, when she was younger, like, all her friends used to say, "You're a fucking shit parent." Imagine the pride.

Steven Bartlett 26:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 26:43 And it is. It's- she raised me. Like, I have to put it down to her.

Steven Bartlett 26:47 You talked about your dad there. And so you said that you've, um... After all that you'd been through and all you'd observed in his addiction and his battles with addiction, you've got a good relationship with him now.

Joe Wicks 26:57 Yeah. We- we do. Because, you know, addiction never goes away. Like, he's- you know, he does his NA meetings, he's- it's a part of his life. But he- he needs that, he needs to have a fellowship and a network of people to talk to. Like, I don't understand addiction. Like, I've never been addicted to anything. So for me, it's like it- he needs that- that network of people he can talk to. And that's obviously at the moment mostly through Zoom, but usually it's like NA meetings, you- you know, you go and have a talk, and you- you feel better. And he's had- you know, he's had therapy. But, you know, he's learned. He's- he's became- he's evolved. Like, again, like his dad left him and, s-... I understand my mum and dad because they went through so much trauma. My mum was abandoned when she was two years old, was living in a... She was in a, um, you know, a- an orphanage. And then my dad, the same thing. His dad left him. Like, he didn't have... You know, he didn't ever say... You know, I think- I don't think my dad's dad told him he loved him until he was, like, on his deathbed when he had cancer. So, like, I understand where that addiction, why my dad chose to like do that with his life. And I understand why my mum had OCD, like, 'cause I know what she went through as a kid, I know what she went through as a young teenager. And so you start to understand it, and then you start to really love your parents even more. Because they protect you. When you're a kid, they're just protecting you. They can't tell you what they went through, they can't tell you this stuff. So it really, like, makes you realize how much trauma they've had and where that's manifested. And so now, like, my relationship with my dad is I understand him, I understand that he- he has seasonal depression. During the winter, he's really low. And he'll have a holiday, and he feels great, and he comes back and he's up and down. And that's him, and I just have to kind of love him. And although I'm quite consistent with my emotions, and you want everyone around you to just be happy all the time, don't you, you think, "I'll buy him a motorbike. I'll- I'll send him to the Maldives. I'll... He can go and stay at my house in America." It's all temporary, it's all... It doesn't do a lot, you know? So real connection comes from, like, communicating, reaching out, spending t- spending time with him. Like, he's happy when comes round and we go for a walk or we go out on our skateboards together. You know, we've got electric skateboards. So it's about reconnecting and being with him. And he- he- he needs that. My dad needs to see the grandkids, he needs to see my brothers, he needs to see me. And, um, yeah, I've just learned that... Like I said, that really nice quote, that the o- p- the- you know, the antidote to addiction is connection. Not push them away, "I hate you. I can't stand it. Why are you relapsing again? Why are you going into depression?" You know, the- the mind's really complex. And you have to, like, understand that people aren't gonna always be how you want them to be, and you have to love them unconditionally. But if you asked me as a teenager, I would be too angry. I would be like, "Fuck that. No." Like, "I can't deal with it. I don't have a dad. My dad's a drug addict. I don't speak to him." You know, I wouldn't have had the emotional, um, ability to deal with that. But now, as an adult, I'm 35, and I can understand it a bit more.

Steven Bartlett 29:25 So crazy, 'cause, um... I love that quote, by the way. And it- I think Johann Hari's a real, uh, sort of... Yeah, I think I've got his book on the shelf behind me about Lost Connection.

Joe Wicks 29:33 That's where it's from, yeah. That's where.

Steven Bartlett 29:33 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Wicks 29:34 I think Russell Brand mentioned it to me, and I thought, "Wow, that's such a nice thought."

Steven Bartlett 29:37 And that's what the book is about. It's about the- the real reasons for depression and anxiety fundamentally stem back to a loss of connection of some sort. And it was- it was telling when you were telling your story about the generational sort of cycle that's going on there. Your mother's, you know, your dad and her upbringing, and then your- your father's dad. And how, like...It was a, a lack of connection, it seems, that put them into the situations they were in. And then that lack of connection made them a certain way, which then nearly made you treat them with a l- lack of connection as well. And I think the r- it seems like much of the reason you're able to break the cycle is because you've realized that, and you're like, as you say, bringing, bringing him close, despite, you know. I talk about this a lot with my friends that have, um, an estranged parent or have lost a parent, and I always try, I tell them, I was doing it this week, I was saying, "You've got to forgive them for their own faults, because their faults have come from some kind of trauma." And Tony Robbins says it as well, he says, "You've got... Sometimes we've got to forgive our parents for being imperfect, not being the parent we hoped they were."

Joe Wicks 30:39 Yeah, that's so true.

Steven Bartlett 30:39 And it took me a long time.

Joe Wicks 30:40 It's so true. And like you said, you, you know, memories, memories can form like your, literally change your character, your personality, and your belief system. And I had really negative beliefs around commitment, around, um, you know, people being faithful, people sticking together, like when things got tough, the peop- And even I'd be affected. If like celebrities that I really loved, like they'd break up, I'd think, "See that, even they can't stay together." I just thought, "No one stays together. No one's loyal. No one's, no one's ever like actually happily married and stays together." But now as a married man with two kids who I love, I'm really, really li- I don't believe that. I believe that you can be happy. I believe that when I see an old couple on the bench, you know, a 78-year-old couple, I love that. I think how amazing they've spent their life together. I want to be like that. I want to be a couple that are stuck together. So it's, you know, my child has affected my, um, my, my love and commitment as a, as a, in a, as a rela- in a relationship to, to Rosie, but also as a parent. Like I don't want to be impatient and intolerant and snappy and swear and shout, but that is my default setting. That's what my head's trying to do.

Steven Bartlett 31:35 Really?

Joe Wicks 31:35 When Indy and Molly is screaming at me, I want to slam the door and walk out the house, or I want to scream and shout back at them, because that's what I, that's what I had as a kid. So I have to actively work against that. So although I might be screaming in my head, I just take a breath and I like almost just sort of, um, yeah, just take a moment to just sort of calm myself, and then I can react very differently. But that is a, that's like a muscle, you have to train it.

Steven Bartlett 31:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 31:56 Because otherwise I'd just be screaming and shouting all day long, you know. So that's definitely... It's hard to do that when you've had it all your life and you just got sh- you know, screamed at, shouted at. It's just, it's like what you know, isn't it?

Steven Bartlett 32:07 It's your default, it's y-

Joe Wicks 32:08 It's your default, yeah. Like it truly is, it's like a, it's like a computer program, and you have to sort of try and undo that code. Um, and I read a book called, um, Calm, Calm Parents Happy, Happy Kids, and it's that thing, you can either fight, flight, or, or pause and have a breath. You can fight them and swear and shout and scream and slam the door. You can run out the house and just deal with it and let them deal with it and just not even deal with any emotion and show no emotional control. Or you can pause and have a breath, and that's the, the secret, is just having that... Right, Indy's two years old. She, her brain's not rational. She can't understand why I really want to just clean the side and put her down on the floor right now. And so like you've got to literally remind yourself every time, and then you can start to really respond differently to your kids.

Steven Bartlett 32:48 I guess we're all human. You have days where you, you get it wrong?

Joe Wicks 32:50 Oh, yeah, I have days, like, I mean, of course I have days where I, I shout and I lose the plot and I feel terrible, but I also, I know that she won't hold it against me. Like the amount of times I was shouted at, I, I love my mum to death, so it's not like, "She shouted me. I think she's terrible and I don't love her today." Like, I think it's okay to not be perfect, not be a perfect parent. And h- The other day I had a row with Rose and I said, "Look, I'm, I'm sorry I'm not perfect every day. I'm sorry that some days I'm so-"

Steven Bartlett 33:12 Rose is your...

Joe Wicks 33:12 Rose is my wife.

Steven Bartlett 33:13 Your wife.

Joe Wicks 33:14 I said, "Look, I'm, I- I'm, I'm sorry that I'm not perfect every... I love you so much. I'm so affectionate and sensitive, but if I'm stressed and I've got something going, som- sometimes I'm snappy, sometimes I'm impatient and I don't shout at the kids, I might shout at you, and I'm sorry." And it's nice to say that out loud and have a bit of a chat about it, because then you kind of move on and you can just, you know, get on with it and you, and you learn from it.

Steven Bartlett 33:34 You're getting busier, right? With the app coming... with the app stuff you're doing, you're getting more requests than ever before, surely?

Joe Wicks 33:39 Dude, I'm so... I've, this has been the year, like I've, I mean, I've worked hard, really have over the last years, you know, during the growing stage like

Joe Wicks 33:45 with social media, you know, it's hard building an audience. And then I kind of had great success with the books. And now like, you know, this year, since PE with Joe, um, the 24 Hour Challenge, I, I then done Wake Up with Joe, which was three workouts a week for lockdown too, because I thought they need to exercise, people need to move. I'm, I've now had the book PR, I've been doing radio interviews, I've done the Channel 4, uh, sorry, the BBC Children Need 24 Hour Challenge. I've not stopped. Like I don't know how I'm still going, but I now at this moment need more energy than ever, because this is the busy time. This is like leading up to Christmas. I'm also doing a January boot camp. Five days a week I'm doing live workouts through the app.

Steven Bartlett 34:20 It's crazy.

Joe Wicks 34:20 You know, which is great because it means people are gonna go, "Oh, I want to give it a go," and it's a really amazing way of marketing the product. But I'm gonna be exhausted.

Steven Bartlett 34:27 If you think about your state and your mood and how you feel within yourself in the midst of all this like chaos, and then we've got the pandemic rattling on outside as well, what impact has it had on you, um, all of this busyness, and now you've got two kids, you know, that are, you know, growing up and screaming at you and don't want to be put down? (laughs) Have you felt a change?

Joe Wicks 34:48 I deal with it in different ways. Like usually I have these like blocks where I'll, I'll work for like two, three months, and then I go, "Right, I'm gonna go to Santa Monica for a few weeks," or, "Let's go, um, have a nice week in Dubai just to like unwind and leave the phones and stuff." And I've missed that. I've missed that, just that reset button, because I've had a, I had like a couple of days away, um, just when lockdown was over, but it wasn't enough, 'cause I actually spent my time filming workouts because I said I was gonna do three workouts a week. So although I was there relaxing, I'm still there, and my j- what I do is so physical, like, you know, being, being physical and doing exercise but also doing it with such an amazing energy through the camera is so draining. But last week has been the most emotionally draining. I was doing like radio interviews with, um, like Jamie Oliver and Ricky Gervais and doing all these things. I'm, it's out of my comfort zone completely. And then I had phone calls every, every hour on the hour to promote the new book. So that is a different type of emotion. And when we talk about The Body Coach, so, you know, I am the physical body, like the energy, and Nikki is like...... the CTO, he's the brains, he takes all the st- all the things I can't, the process stuff. Nikki's on a laptop doing Zoom calls nine hours a day, like managing this agency, um, and all the other marketing stuff. So together, we have this perfect kind of relationship where we are working as equally as hard, but we're taking, we're doing what we can do.

Steven Bartlett 36:01 Sure.

Joe Wicks 36:01 So I don't feel like burning out, but I do think at the end of January, I need to block a month out, so I've- I've taken the month off, hoping to go, you know, somewhere nice. Like I love Costa Rica, I'd love to go with the kids.

Steven Bartlett 36:10 Oh, it's amazing, man.

Joe Wicks 36:10 You know, just- just- just unwind and basically when I have that time down, off the- offline and I'm not filming, it really re-energizes me when I come back, I'm like, I'm like reset and like body coach volume two ready to go again, sort of thing.

Steven Bartlett 36:22 You talked a little bit there about marriage earlier, and you've also, you've also heard me on this podcast talking about marriage, right? I want you to tell me where I- I'm getting it wrong.

Joe Wicks 36:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:32 And also why you think

Steven Bartlett 36:33 I'm getting it wrong.

Joe Wicks 36:33 So I listened to two episodes of your podcast, and I- I really hear, I hear myself and you when I was like 25. And I was lo- and I feel- I feel like a part of you is lost because you've got everything on the surface you could possibly want. You've- you've smashed it in business, like you've got an amazing story and you've got, you know, incredible success, which is wonderful. But there's, there, maybe you're missing that deeper connection with one person, you know. You've got amazing friends and you've got a great network of people you work with, but I do feel like the le- the love between one person, you know, it's different. It's a different kind of relationship where you can always lean on them. So when I was 25, I was in a relationship from 19, and I really, I was running away. I couldn't commit to it. I didn't... I used to say like, exactly what you were like, "This marriage is like this r- religious thing, it's a contract. And why should that person get half of what I've got? And what... it's not gonna work. All my other friends are unhappy. They're all divorced." You know, one in three marriages. So the more you tell yourself that, the more it becomes true. And the truth is, how you feel now is how you feel, and what you believe now is what you believe. But when you meet someone and you- you realize, and when you do fall in love, in whatever way, sense that could be, it was almost like with Rosie. I was telling her every day I loved her, and it wasn't enough. It wa- I- I needed to tell her more. I needed to have something stronger between us. So I said, "Can we have a baby?" You know, then she fell pregnant and we had Indie. So for me, in my head, the ultimate bond between two humans is- is another child. And then when she was pregnant, I never thought I would get excited about the idea of like proposing and getting married, but it was just, it just changed. My mind just changed as I started to think, "Do you know what? I love this girl. I don't want to be waking up, you know, every other week with a different girl in a different hotel room." That's not who I have been and it's never who I'll be. So I- I love being with s- I love being close to one person. I think I'm quite, um, emotional like that. Um, and then I asked her to marry me and we had this amazing wedding day, and I do love being married. And I just think when you have kids and you start seeing your children grow and you, you see how wonderful that can be and how much joy they bring you, I just think your perspective will change over time, and you're- you're just not there yet. It might, you might not get that till you're 35. You could be 45. I was 30. I met Rosie at 30.

Steven Bartlett 38:33 Okay.

Joe Wicks 38:33 And I've been the happiest since I turned 30. Honestly, I've just been... I'm commit- 'cause being- being honest and being committed is two of the most wonderful things. Being sneaky, being deceitful, not being honest or being jealous and insecure, they're feelings you do not want to go through your life with. So when you find someone, you know, be committed and be loyal. It's- it's a really, it really takes your love to another level.

Steven Bartlett 38:53 Do you believe in the, you know, there's a l- a bunch of words people use in a, in this, in this, uh, realm of like love and marriage? Uh, they say, you know, you've got to find your soulmate.

Joe Wicks 39:02 I don't know if it's soulmate, but everyone says, "Oh, hard..." You know, "Love's hard work. Marriage is hard work." It isn't. It doesn't have to be hard work, not if you're with the right person. Of course, you could get with someone too young, marry the wrong person, it all goes wrong, and you know, that's a bad experience. But it doesn't mean that the next relationship won't be better and you can't improve and learn from it. But, you know, I do feel like Rosie is, is the kind of female version of me, that when we met, you know, we were just having so much fun and she's a, she's a wonderful parent. I watch her and I see how patient she is. I think I learn a lot from her because I, I- I've got like a two or three minute kind of tolerance of Marley screaming and screaming in my face where I just have to walk out the room, I just can't handle it. Whereas she can be in there like 20 minutes all through the night and I'm like, "How-"

Steven Bartlett 39:41 The kids.

Joe Wicks 39:42 Yeah, with the, with- with Indie crying or Marley teething, and I think it's amazing. She's just got this natural innate, like motherly patience and love and tolerance. So I watch that and I literally like go, "I need a bit more of that." And I sort of learn from it. But yeah, I mean, you know, maybe- maybe you might have one relationship that lasts five years, but I do believe that when you are in a relationship, like give it all. Don't, don't be thinking, "This is gonna end soon. This... my last one didn't work out. I know now it's gonna break down and we're gonna end up breaking apart. We're gonna end up leaving each other. She'll, she'll have an affair. I'll- I'll- I'll leave her. It won't work." That just, it's hard to be happy in that si- situation. So I think take every relationship and just maximize it to- to the best of your ability like you would with someone that you work with, a business partner. If we went into business together, you'd try and ma- you'd try and make that partnership so like awesome and so effective and efficient. And it's the same with a relationship. You've got to, you know, keep- keep th- keep doing the things that make you happy. And, and yeah, I think with Rosie, like just having a night out, going for dinner, um, and the f- do you know what the- the secret is? If you stop kissing, you're fucked.

Steven Bartlett 40:42 (laughs)

Joe Wicks 40:42 If you don't kiss your girlfriend and you stop kissing, you just bypass each other and you don't... Because everything starts from a kiss. Do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 40:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 40:50 It could become a massage, it could become, you know, you might do a bit of, do a bit of hanky panky, but if you stop kissing, that one thing, that intimacy, I feel like, I feel like everything breaks down. Seriously. Keep kissing.

Steven Bartlett 41:01 I- it's one of the... it's probably the only thing that I've thought about going and seeing a therapist about is like, I have a fairly m- negative or pessimistic, let's say, perception on romantic relationships. Um, and I- I think I've identified that on one hand, I'm, my expectations are probably like somewhat unme- unmeetable. And then on the other hand, I kind of see relationships as being like a bird in a cage, is the best way.

Joe Wicks 41:28 Where does that come from? Like who... so I know your mum and dad-

Steven Bartlett 41:30 From my parents, they're just like screaming at each other.

Joe Wicks 41:32 ... and they're, they're arguing.

Steven Bartlett 41:32 My- my parents-

Joe Wicks 41:33 So that's the only, that- that's the only marriage role modeling you're- you're- you're basing your opinion on?

Steven Bartlett 41:37 Yeah. So I- I have these v- but when I say my parents screamed at each other, I'm like, my mum, I've never seen since, a- a human able to perform the screaming match she did. Nigerian woman, and if you don't know Nigerian women, you know they're constantly watching-

Joe Wicks 41:51 I can picture it. I do visualize it like they're around the kitchen table

Narrator 41:53 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:53 The sound is un- like you've never seen. My dad actually said one day, he said, "I- my- your mom was screaming at me." This is I think when we lived in Manchester, probably before I was born. "Your mom was screaming at me-"... and I went out, like, went shopping, did all that, da, da, da. She had no idea. I came back and she's still screaming. She had no idea that I'd left the house. And th- the v- the, the sound of it. I, I had this, like, mental image of my dad sat passively, just this, like, passive white guy just sat there watching TV, just looking at the screen. And my African mother, like, kind of stood above him, just bellowing into his face at full volume for, like, six hours. She didn't lose energy. We talked about, like, exhausting yourself. She didn't lose her energy. And she would follow him round the house. And so I'm thi- I looked at my dad and thought, "He's trapped." And this is what my, my, m-

Joe Wicks 42:38 You know that, that experience of seeing your mum shout? Has that effe- has that, like, affected your, you know, your abil-

Steven Bartlett 42:43 Yes.

Joe Wicks 42:43 A- are you calm and rel- Uh, you know when you argue? Are you confrontational?

Steven Bartlett 42:46 Yeah.

Joe Wicks 42:46 Are you, like... 'Cause me and Rosie are more like silent team. We sulk and we're so stubborn, and we'll, like, go two days without talking. We don't scream and shout at each other. Are you a sh- are you quite a shouting person?

Steven Bartlett 42:54 I will never shout.

Joe Wicks 42:55 Oh, so you're calm.

Steven Bartlett 42:56 Never. I will not do it. I, I will... The minute... So I will try and explain myself in a very calm way, and then I'm like, "Okay, I'm going." (laughs)

Joe Wicks 43:03 Right. And you walk away.

Steven Bartlett 43:04 And I will, I will, like-

Joe Wicks 43:05 Do you ever say sorry? Do you ever admit you're wrong?

Steven Bartlett 43:07 Uh-

Joe Wicks 43:07 Or do you find it hard to admit you're wrong?

Steven Bartlett 43:08 It takes me t- I... So if you'd asked me that question two years ago, the answer would've been like, "No, I never say sorry." Like, 'cause I always kind of think I'm right, and it's like my way or the highway. In the last year, and when, when I was... I got with this, this certain person, um, who I won't name, and she kind of taught me to, like, grow up a little bit. And, and I started to apologize for things. And I started to learn to apologize a little bit more. But, um, I've got to be honest. I'm not gonna lie. It's like the whole point of this podcast is not to fucking lie. Like, I'm still not that good at it.

Joe Wicks 43:38 It is hard. I, I'm the same. I find it hard to say sorry in the moment. But I do... If I go away for a little half an hour, an hour, have a walk or do a workout, I do come back and I go, "I was a bit disrespectful there and I, I do apologize." But yeah, it's an ego thing. It's like you just got to let your guard down. One thing I say about relationships which I really think is valuable, I, I can't remember where I heard it or read it, but it was about you can be in a relationship with someone, and this expectation thing where you want them to do everything perfect and be everything in one, and be, like, this amazing, like, just, like, unicorn, right? But you might find them really attractive and really funny, but intellectually, they just don't challenge you. Just you can't have conversations about what... They don't understand you. But you can ring me or Nikki, and we... You can get that, that, that, that part of a relationship with, from someone else. So, there's no pressure on that person you're with to, like, be really intelligent and really understand business and really understand social media. Like, that's something I've learned, that sometimes you have to love the person for what they've got, you know, love that they're in a... That they're really affectionate, love that they're really caring and considerate, but maybe other elements of their personality you have to get from someone else. Because the chance of you finding a unicorn is so rare, isn't it?

Steven Bartlett 44:37 Oh, my God. It doesn't exist.

Joe Wicks 44:38 That you're gonna find that... And then, and also you, like, you might be amazing at certain things, but you might not be good at one thing, but-

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Yeah, I'm not a unicorn. This is the problem.

Joe Wicks 44:44 Who is a uni-

Steven Bartlett 44:45 Far from it, like-

Joe Wicks 44:45 No one's a uni-

Steven Bartlett 44:45 (laughs)

Joe Wicks 44:46 No one's a unicorn, really. No one's completely perfect, because when you're in a relationship, you want the other person to, like, you know, do everything like you and i- be interested in the same things you like. Rosie's not into, you know, motorbikes, but I go out with my brother and my, my litt- my little brother George and my dad, so I kind of gi- I scratch that itch, and I come back and then I spend time with Rosie and the kids. So, it's really about finding the needs that you need as a human being-

Steven Bartlett 45:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 45:08 ... in, in maybe in multiple people, and then you can really just focus on what you love about your partner. It does help.

Steven Bartlett 45:14 You, you talked a, uh, uh, a little... I talked a little bit about there about going to therapy. Have you ever gone to therapy? So, this week, I had my deadline for my book, Happy Sexy Millionaire, which you can now pre-order. And it's been an absolute, uh, labor of love over the last couple of years. And because I had the deadline, on Sunday, I was head down, smashing it out, um, typically, like me, forgetting to eat my meals and things like that. And, um, and this is where Huel saved me once again. And I was in my office until 6:00 AM in the morning. Um, was getting very, very tired. I'd had two Huels and, um, I had dinner as well. And it's, for me, that was the perfect... That was the reason why I've teamed up with Huel. Because someone like me in that situation would basically either completely skip meals. I would not get my sort of vitamins and minerals. I wouldn't get protein. Then I'd start feeling like shit, um, because I didn't have the time. And that's, as I've said on this podcast before, the reason I've, um, I'm so attached to Huel, the company, the brand, the, the founder, Julian, because it really does save my ass. And it has done for three years. And if you are someone, like me, you know, that does have, uh, a very time-limited life, then I really, really recommend you give Huel a shot. I really recommend you, you give berry flavor Huel a shot, because that is my favorite flavor. And, um, yeah, so this week, I just wanted to shout it out because you definitely saved me on Sunday when I had my book deadline. And also, go and check out my book, Happy Sexy Millionaire.

Joe Wicks 46:43 Oh, it's quite nice. It's like, um... It's like Nesquik, innit? It's like...

Steven Bartlett 46:47 (laughs)

Joe Wicks 46:48 Yeah, it's nice. I do like that.

Steven Bartlett 46:52 I talked a little bit about there about going to therapy. Have you ever gone to therapy?

Joe Wicks 46:56 I c- I call it the gym. But yeah, I think my therapy, from a kid, and I look back, like, for sure, like, I was stressed. I didn't want to go home. I would be always out the house, always playing sport. I think it was my therapy

Joe Wicks 47:07 and I dealt with things through sport. And maybe that's why I became the body coach. But I think I had, um, I had one therapy session with a counselor once, um, because I was basically in a relationship that I didn't want to be in, and I needed to talk to someone about it. And I had that session, and I, I just spoke and, and verbalized everything I was going through. And it was almost like, just by saying, I was like, "I know I need to walk away from this now." And I, I went home and that was it. So it was a re- It was an investment. It was like an hour of my time. Um, I, I, I spoke to someone, 'cause it wasn't my mum who was invested, my dad who was invested. It wasn't her parents and my friends who really cared about her. It was, like, a completely neutral person. And it really helped because it changed the direction of my life. Because I left a relationship that I wasn't happy in. I met Rosie, I got married and I had kids, you know. And this is the situation, that I was 19 when I met that girl. I was backpacking. I was in a bar in Australia. You're very different 10 years later. So maybe, maybe there can be such thing as a relationship that's really great at a certain time in your life, but then when it's not right and it isn't working, having a child and marrying that person is definitely the wrong thing to do. Um, and I didn't really realize that until I met Rosie, just how-... how unhappy I probably was in that last relationship.

Steven Bartlett 48:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 48:14 So yeah, I've had it once. And I c- I think if I n- if I feel like I, I need it, I'd be open to it. I've got a lot of friends that do it. It's like, I see it as like personal training for the mind, isn't it? It's like-

Steven Bartlett 48:24 Yeah.

Joe Wicks 48:24 ... why not? Why not take care of your brain and your heart and your mind? And that can be done through therapy. So I'm open to it. Um, I just haven't felt, I haven't had the calling. I'm more interested in, um, I really like the idea of doing an ayoska, ayahuasca ceremony.

Steven Bartlett 48:35 Oh, can we do it together?

Joe Wicks 48:36 Do you know what? I'm just, I, I listen to your podcast, I listen to like certain people that do it, and I, I'm drawn to it

Joe Wicks 48:42 because of that gateway and opening up that, that even more love and more connection when you realize we're all so interconnected. And obviously, you can meditate for 10 years or you can go and do an ayahuasca ceremony, and apparently you get, it's like a fast track-

Steven Bartlett 48:54 Yeah (laughs) .

Joe Wicks 48:54 ... to that feeling. But yeah, you've talked about it. Have you, have you... I mean, I was in Mexico in Tulum, and they, they were doing like peyote ceremonies out there, and I, I just couldn't quite convince myself to do it. But I would love to do ayahuasca one day, like go proper into the Amazon, do it properly with a shaman-

Steven Bartlett 49:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 49:07 ... and like, you know, feel, feel that mother nature they talk about, that feeling of like the earth and that are connected to the human race. It must be a wonderful feeling.

Steven Bartlett 49:14 Have you ever done mushrooms?

Joe Wicks 49:16 I've never done mushrooms, no. I've, I've never, I've never done drugs, so I couldn't really, um...

Steven Bartlett 49:19 I've never done anything like that. I've never done mushrooms or ayahuasca. But I, the more I... So I've just, I've just invested almost a million dollars into a, a psychedelics, uh, company that's using it to cure mental health disor- We talked about this, didn't we?

Joe Wicks 49:31 Yeah, for the psilocybin. So my dad is involved in the trials at, um, the Imperial College London. He's involved. He was basically, uh, um, one of the, uh, not, not the guinea pigs, but yeah, he... It was a trial between psilocybin, um, a placebo, and an antidepressant drugs. And obviously, the, the studies come back that like this can really help. And it's a natural, it's from a natural product from the, from the earth. So-

Steven Bartlett 49:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 49:51 Yeah, I can see that growing in the next few years for sure when it, when it gets apr- Has it been approved in the US for like-

Steven Bartlett 49:56 Yeah, so it's in the fi-

Joe Wicks 49:57 ... depression and stuff?

Steven Bartlett 49:58 Um, don't quote me on this, but, uh, it's in, it's in the final stage of FDA approval, psilocybin. So it's very, very close. And there's a company called Compass Pathways, which has just gone public and is, as of right now, worth about two billion, which is really deve- it's sort of leading the pack in developing psilocybin. But it's crazy that I've not tried it, but I've looked at all the research and development videos and studies and data, and it like blow, blew my mind.

Joe Wicks 50:21 Are you, are you tempted to try it yourself? Are you-

Steven Bartlett 50:23 I will do all.

Joe Wicks 50:23 ... scared and nervous about it all?

Steven Bartlett 50:24 No, 'cause I know the numbers. I've been through, I've looked at every drug and I've, I've seen where mushrooms and psilocybin, um, rank in terms of the harm they could possibly do to you and the harm they can do to others when you're on them. It's below alcohol, it's below like every- It's at the bottom, it's the bottom thing on the list.

Joe Wicks 50:40 Yeah. It's been shown to really, um, really help with addiction and depression and, and-

Steven Bartlett 50:44 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 50:44 ... trauma from that. So yeah, I, I suppose, w- I wonder what the experience will be like for us who maybe we're not depressed and we're not anxious.

Steven Bartlett 50:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 50:49 I wonder what that experience will be like. But, but yeah, you know, I, I listen to a lot of podcasts. You know, Tim Ferriss is big on it. Um-

Steven Bartlett 50:55 Rogan.

Joe Wicks 50:55 ... Rogan, you know. And yeah, it's just kind of, it feels like this scary thing, but I suppose 'cause it's been going on for thousands of years-

Steven Bartlett 51:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 51:00 ... you know, with, with kind of tribes, and it's not some dirty chemical drug that's been manufactured in a lab. I think it-

Steven Bartlett 51:05 It's non-addictive.

Joe Wicks 51:07 It opens up... So what they say is it opens up like neurological pathways that maybe is l- all these memories locked. Did you hear the Tim Ferriss podcast? He said like he done an ayahuasca ceremony, or maybe it was psilocybin, and he had this vision of trauma that came through that he completely blocked out.

Steven Bartlett 51:21 Really?

Joe Wicks 51:21 Yeah. So he got ex- He experienced, um, child abuse. Like, he literally didn't remember it, and he had this vision and all these memories of being abused and it like completely like opened up his, his mind. He's now obviously sharing about it. But that was like some-

Steven Bartlett 51:34 Wow.

Joe Wicks 51:34 ... some... So it's quite... In a way, you don't know what you're unlocking.

Steven Bartlett 51:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 51:38 You can unlock really beautiful memories and amazing things, or it could, but it can also show you like quite traumatic, upsetting things.

Steven Bartlett 51:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 51:43 But either way, like you can learn from it, I think.

Steven Bartlett 51:46 Do you know what I did this morning is the, the, the founder, one of the founders of the company, Itai, um, which is leading the charge in terms of psychedelics, they're really developing about 10 different compounds in the space. I a- I said to him, "I need to get you on this podcast. Would you come on?" And so he's, he's, um, as far as I know, he's, you know, he's an incredibly successful biotech guy. He's been doing it for decades. And, um, he's gonna come on onto the podcast and really talk through all of these things. So like ibogaine and psilocybin and all of that. So that'll be-

Joe Wicks 52:12 Oh, that'd be interesting, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:12 ... in the coming weeks 'cause they're fascinating.

Joe Wicks 52:13 I'll be listening to that one. Yeah, for sure.

Steven Bartlett 52:14 But listen, ayahuasca, mushrooms, psilocybin, if you wanna do it, then I've been saying to m- to my... all these people in this room now, I've been saying, "Let's go and do a retreat with like a shaman." And, um, they've told me what the best way to do it is, like the best retreat, the best shaman, the best place. I'd love to do something like that.

Joe Wicks 52:31 Yeah, I would be up for it. It's, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a real pers-

Steven Bartlett 52:34 It is.

Joe Wicks 52:34 It's like personal growth. Like, you read a lot of books. I'm not well-read. I wish I had more patience and more time, and well, I wish I had more, um, commitment and discipline to reading. But I do, I do, I do, I'm drawn to it. And it always, it a- almost... They say like it will call you. Like, my dad's, uh, done an ayahuasca ceremony in Wales, and he said it just calls you, like the plant, mother nature. Like, you'll have a calling one day and it'll be like, "I'm ready."

Steven Bartlett 52:54 Yeah.

Joe Wicks 52:54 At the moment, we're just sort of experimenting with the idea of it.

Steven Bartlett 52:56 And your dad did the psilocybin trial with Imperial. So h- what was his feedback to you after he did it?

Joe Wicks 53:01 Yeah, I mean, it was, um... It sometimes takes a little bit longer to integrate, you know. You have the experience and, you know, it's in a very controlled room, like it's in a proper like clinical setting. So you're like in a hospital room, and they're holding your hand and talking you through it. And I'm not sure of the exact dosage, but he got blasted with a decent dose of psilocybin. Um, and yeah, y- you know, he saw some things and it unlocked a little bit of, you know, trauma and some visual stuff that he saw. But again, it's just about moving forward. It's about, it's about taking what you see and integrating it into your life and saying, "I've had these experiences, but how can I be present today? How can I enjoy my life today?" And, you know, with depression, it's, I don't think it's gonna be cured. I don't think you can cure it like that 'cause of the way the brain works. But you're gonna learn to deal with it and, and spot the signs and kind of counteract it quicker. Um, but yeah, he had, he had a positive experience for sure, and he's, he's really proud that he took part, 'cause he, he genuinely wants to help people. Like he said, if, if people can come off chemical antidepressants-

Steven Bartlett 53:54 Oh, God, yeah.

Joe Wicks 53:54 ... and be given a really beautiful natural, um, you know, natural product that can actually help them feel happier, and, and especially for like post-traumatic stress syng- disorder. Like, people dealing with some really, really hard stuff and they're getting blasted with, you know, antidepressants, which are very addictive. And it's like morphine, isn't it? It's like, it's not even...... it's not even, like, good for you. It's a very, very addictive as well. I don't think you're gonna get the same thing with the-

Steven Bartlett 54:17 Yeah, the side effects are-

Joe Wicks 54:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:18 ... really, really, you know, crazy, um, sometimes.

Joe Wicks 54:21 I think the opioids, I think... Is it opioids or is it your antidepress- I think opioid- I think antidepressants are like opioids or amphetamines. It's one of them. It's like, it's basically the drug that, you know, you do not want to be taking in a very small dose. But over time, it can s- real, generate real addiction. And-

Steven Bartlett 54:35 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 54:35 ... you see it in America, like the prescription drug addiction over there is, is really destroying people's lives over there.

Steven Bartlett 54:40 My next question, you would have heard this on the podcast if you listen to the Eddie Hearn one. Uh, it's kind of a new question I'm asking, and, uh, it's, uh, question I really, really love 'cause I think it gives a unique sense of perspective. Um, you're an incredibly

Steven Bartlett 54:51 busy guy. You're running around at the moment doing this, that, and the other, you know, all over the place. Um, if you found out, God forbid, touch glass, um, that this week was your last week for whatever reason, God forbid, or you walked out here and you got hit by a, a truck, what, what would you regret having not done or not doing more of?

Joe Wicks 55:12 I really wish I had like this long list of bucket things that I wished I'd done. But, um, I've always, even when I was at university, like, I would go traveling in my half term, my summer holidays. I always, I've always maximized life to the m- at that moment in time. And I've always... I've never kind of... I've never regretted or, like, missed out on things. I've always traveled with my friends. I've always, you know, done the things I want. So if I had a week left on Earth, I wouldn't really regret anything. I, I'd be proud. I'm proud of what I've achieved in this short time. I'm 35. I feel like I've, I've been good. I've done some good things. I'd probably bring everyone together and, like, throw my wedding party again, 'cause my wedding day was wicked. Like, all, you know, your best friends and all your mate, your mates. And we had a fun fair and we had all the food and we were dancing. And I think I'll try and recreate that. If I knew I had seven days, I'd get everyone together and say, "Look, it's my last week. Come down, let's have another blowout and-"

Steven Bartlett 55:58 (laughs)

Joe Wicks 55:58 "... have a party." Um, but I wouldn't regret. Yeah, I just really wouldn't. I, I think it's a shame to live your life like that, you know, regretting and wishing-

Steven Bartlett 56:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 56:05 ... your childhood was different, wishing, you know, you, you... I've, I've... And I've got friends that kind of live in that mindset of always looking back and almost thinking about a moment in time that if they'd just done it differently, their, like, life would have been different today. But you can't think like that. You can't get stuck between the future and the past, can you? 'Cause that's really, really depressing. Whereas, if you actually just think, look, I've done what I've done, even the bad things and the times I wasn't nice or disrespectful, I, I learned from it, and today I'm a better person for it.

Steven Bartlett 56:31 A lot of people, th- when, when you ask them that question, they reflect on, like, a lack of balance in their life. They'll say, "Oh, God, I work too much. I didn't see the kids enough," and, and those kinds of things. That's typically what you hear. It's like, "Oh, do you know what? I really wish I spent more time with this person or, or that person." I think if I was to answer that question, I'd probably feel... I'd probably say that. I'd say, "Why didn't I spend enough time with my family?"

Joe Wicks 56:51 I think the reason is because a lot... Most traditional businesses, like if you're a grafter like Eddie Hearn, always on the road, always around the world. You know, footballers, again, away every weekend. They're training there. You know, traveling the world. Musicians away from their family. And it's hard for like, you know, stabil- stability, and so they do sacrifice a lot for that fame and success. Whereas my fame and success has come through an iPhone in my kitchen.

Steven Bartlett 57:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Wicks 57:11 So I've really... Even before lockdown, I filmed all my workouts at home. So I have a great balance where I can do what I'm doing and be successful, but also leave my phone for two weeks and go away and not, not worry about it, or I can, you know, put my phone down. Like I- I as... I spend quality time with my kids every day. I'm, I'm adamant about that. So I do, you know, breakfast. I make them breakfast every day. I have two and a half hours, so between like 5:00 and 7:30 where I don't have my phone. And I do-

Steven Bartlett 57:35 Wow.

Joe Wicks 57:36 ... dinner time, bath time, but story time. I love it. It's like my routine. And I, and I get... Once they're down, I can go back to work or, you know, watch a film. But it's having little moments like that, just having that structure so that you don't feel like you've missed out. And you ask them how their day has been. And Indie's favorite thing is like she loves cooking and she loves doing her handwriting. So even just running in there and doing 10 minutes of handwriting with her. I mean, she's two years old and she's doing the alphabet. She's, she's got like these dots. You follow the dots.

Steven Bartlett 58:00 (laughs)

Joe Wicks 58:00 And just seeing her with a shaky hand to like now a month later, she's banging out the A to Z and it's like immaculate.

Steven Bartlett 58:06 (laughs)

Joe Wicks 58:06 That's, that's fun. It's amazing. So I'm not missing out on these moments. Although I'm really busy, I'm also optimizing my time with them as well, if you know what I mean.

Steven Bartlett 58:14 When you said that Indie is really into cooking, I thought, "Oh, God. She's going to be the next Body Coach." And then I thought, "Oh, God. I wonder if Joe would want her to be on social media."

Joe Wicks 58:22 Oh, I don't know. I had this dilemma with Rosie,

Joe Wicks 58:25 you know. When I was bringing out my cookbook, my Wean in 15 book, so I got a book deal, and I was genuinely enjoying that journey. I was learning to wean Indie for the first time. I didn't know what to do. I was working with a nutritionist. Um, and I shared so much, you know. We got 50,000 pre-orders, and I worked hard for them pre-orders because I shared everything, you know. I shared the dinner. I was... It was camera at breakfast, it was camera at lunch, it was, "Indie, do you like that, darling? Do another one of them." Like, so I shared so much in order to have that success. But now I've kind of... I've just gone a little... I just don't want the phone out during dinner time. So I'm producing less content. I'm not to- producing l- as much recipe stuff because I want to