Bear Grylls: Man VS Failure, Anxiety & Imposter Syndrome | E155

Bear Grylls 0:00 Just because you're determined doesn't mean everything's gonna go well.

Steven Bartlett 0:03 Those four people that passed away, were they climbing with you?

Bear Grylls 0:08 I'm Bear Grylls, and I've learned how to survive in some of the most hostile terrains on the planet.

Steven Bartlett 0:13 You really fascinate me for a number of reasons that I actually never knew before I started digging into your story. You certainly had a lot of demons.

Bear Grylls 0:21 In the early days of TV especially, there was so much pressure to go and do that and do the extra episode. You end up burning the things that are most valuable. To be successful, you have to sacrifice, but maybe you reach a point where enough's enough. Selection for the Special Forces is all about heart and spirit, and we can all have that. That's not a God-given talent, that's a muscle that builds with walking through the, the door of failure time and time again and keep getting back up.

Steven Bartlett 0:49 When was your darkest moment?

Bear Grylls 0:51 One was when I, when I broke my back and, and was in rehabilitation for a long time. And, you know, so much of my rock in my life had been that I was physically strong and I was doing a job I loved, and suddenly I couldn't even reach the bathroom without excruciating agony. And it was just a, "What am I gonna do with my life?"

Steven Bartlett 1:07 When is there a time to give up? So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Bear,

Steven Bartlett 1:28 I wanna start where I usually start, which is near the start. And one of the things you said was, you certainly had a lot of demons. You, the quote, the exact quote is, "I was never short of demons." When I read that, I thought, "W- well what do you, what do you mean?"

Bear Grylls 1:43 Mm. Growing up I really struggled with confidence, you know, definitely when I was at school. And I think, uh, you know, I think so much of the school culture still to this day, you know, it definitely tends to celebrate the, you know, the guy who's academic or sporty or good-looking or just a cool guy, you know, and that, those are the currency of school. But as you and me know, it's not always the currency of life. And, but you try and tell a kid who, who maybe isn't sporty or academic who's just kind and, and does his best, you know, that actually those things have much more value in life, and it's kinda hard to believe. But certainly for me, I didn't, I didn't have, I wasn't the sporty or the most academic or the cool guy. Um, and I think it took me a while to find an identity, and actually this is what, you know, this is what l- I love, and it's nothing kinda brilliant, but, but I love it. And for me growing up it was always climbing with my dad. You know, he'd been a, he'd been a commando and, and loved all of that sort of stuff. And for me growing up it was always, you know, that's what I loved to do, just, just have mini adventures with him. And I think it took a while to learn that that's okay. You know, my dad would always say, "You've gotta find something you really love and try and be kind to people along the way and be resilient, you know, have that dogged, never give up attitude." And th- that's the s- that's the key things for life. And, uh, but it's hard to believe that as a kid, and sometimes you, if you get a bit lost in the system. Um, so I suppose what I meant is that it took me a while to find the confidence, you know. And it's still a journey I think we're all on. You know, I think success doesn't always answer those sort of questions, and I think confidence has to come from in here, and it's often the opposite of what we think it is when we're growing up. You know, confidence is quiet, and I think that's where, that's kinda what I meant.

Steven Bartlett 3:39 When you say confidence, what, how do you define confidence? 'Cause some people think of confidence as this, like, overt external expression of, like, self-assurance. What, what did you mean when you said-

Bear Grylls 3:50 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 3:50 ... "I didn't have confidence and it's still an ongoing battle"? What is that?

Bear Grylls 3:53 I think it's not what the world always thinks, like you say. You know, we always have this thing of confidence, as you say, it's this.

Steven Bartlett 3:59 Mm.

Bear Grylls 4:00 Unstoppable, I can do anything. You know, I think, um, life is always humbling, you know, in every way, just like the wild. You know, the mountains are humbling, you know. The, the real things in life are humbling as you reminds us that, you know, it's often a battle, and, you know, you gotta sometimes put your head down and do your best, and you're gonna fail and you're gonna struggle and you're gonna have doubts and you're gonna have self-doubt and, but, but try, try and get to your feet and keep going. And, uh, and I think that is, um, that is confidence. You know, confidence is the quiet stuff and the, and the honesty and, and to, to say, "This is a struggle, but, but let's go." You know, "Let's, let's, let's do our best." I love that thing of the Scouts, you know, "Do your best." You know, which is so smart because I think so much of the world is about be the best, you know?

Steven Bartlett 4:46 Mm.

Bear Grylls 4:46 Win, number one.

Steven Bartlett 4:47 Mm.

Bear Grylls 4:48 You know, but actually, that doesn't always stand the, the pressure test of time and of, of life and of going for big things that are always going to be humbling. And I think the thing of do your best, you know, it's DIB, DIB, DIB, you know, D-Y-B, do your best, I, I love that, because wherever you're at, you, you can do that, you know? It's a decision, isn't it? It's not a gift. It's not something we're born with, like the looks or the academic or the sport. It's something you gotta summon, and, uh, I like that.

Steven Bartlett 5:19 What were the symptoms of having a lack of confidence when you were that age? What, what would it look like? How did it manifest itself?

Bear Grylls 5:26 I think probably just being quite shy, and, uh, and I think you see the, the people at school always the, the, the bigger personalities, and it was always like, "Gosh, you gotta be like that to get anywhere." And it's a life journey, isn't it, to realize it's almost the opposite. It's almost the opposite. You know, the, the, the quiet, the persevering, relentlessly trying to pick yourself up through the failures and, and keep going and, and know the wealth of life. The wealth is always found in our relationships. And, and, you know, you come across people who are rich in friendships and, you know, rich in passion and love what they do and love the people they work with, and...You know, and that's enough. That's wonderful. But it takes a bit of unlearning, doesn't it? Of saying-

Steven Bartlett 6:13 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 6:13 ... you know, you don't have... The people not always that I look up to aren't always, uh, front and center. And as I get older, I see more and more heroes left, right, and cent- well, more left and right rather than center.

Steven Bartlett 6:24 (laughs)

Bear Grylls 6:25 You know, and, and I love that. I, I sort of see it in people. And, uh, you know, I see it in our camera crew. I mean, look at, look at w- what's been a core part of my job for however many years, many years now. You know, the, the filming and stuff. And, you know, the focus is always on the person in front of screen, and, and, you know, that horrible word of talent as they call it.

Steven Bartlett 6:47 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 6:48 I never felt (laughs) very talented. Still don't. Still feel I'm surrounded by way more talented people, but it's, life isn't a competition about who's more talented. It's a, it's a journey to take with great friends. And I look at our camera crew, and to me, true heroes. You know, they work harder. They, they carry heavier weights.

Steven Bartlett 7:05 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 7:05 You know, unsung, you know, relentlessly positive. Carried me many times, you know, in so many ways. Encouraged me when, when I've been struggling. And I look at them, and, and still brothers and sisters, best friends to this day. Uh, I think it's probably the thing I'm most proud of in my career actually, are the friendships with our crew, you know. In a industry that is notoriously transient. You know, people have crew come, crew go, new crews, you know. But we've kept pretty well the core crew from, from the beginning.

Steven Bartlett 7:37 Wow.

Bear Grylls 7:37 And, uh, part of it's that we're obviously working in difficult, dangerous terrain, and you forge stronger bonds than you would in a shiny studio.

Steven Bartlett 7:45 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 7:45 But part of it's that the loyalty really matters, from both... It goes both ways. Uh, and I love that.

Steven Bartlett 7:54 You said that you kind of have a bit of an allergic reaction to the word talent, right? Just from a few other things that you said in that little opener, I wondered if you, you relate at all to the w- to the phrase imposter syndrome at all. 'Cause you're someone who's the world

Steven Bartlett 8:08 has this image of you as being this, like, unbelievable, mountain-scaling, fearless adventurer. And even you talking about a lack of confidence doesn't seem to fit into that narrative that the world must hold of you.

Bear Grylls 8:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 8:21 So have you ever felt, uh, what they call imposter syndrome at all? Would you agree with it?

Bear Grylls 8:25 Yeah, I think so. (laughs) I think it's ongoing. I think it, I think it probably grows, you know. The more, you know, the more sort of something does well, you know. We, you know, we d- we did this show this year for Netflix called You Vs Wild.

Steven Bartlett 8:38 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 8:38 You know, and we just got the news, you know. This morning, we got on the nominee for three Emmys for it. And the crew go, "Babe, this is so exciting," but part of my heart dies. Part of me is like, "Oh." It's like that gulf between the, the sort of TV sort of, you know, guy and, and the real. It gets bigger, you know. And I feel... From day one, I've felt... I almost had more confidence I think in my skills at the beginning. I think it's the years that gone on, I've realized (laughs) actually, I'll often be surrounded by people who are better. Better climbers, better sky divers, better survival guys, better looking, fitter, stronger, (laughs) all, all of these things. Just 'cause we've built a, a, a crew of ninjas, of true heroes.

Steven Bartlett 9:18 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 9:19 And, you know, we got to work with people and locals and experts all around the world year after year. And I think more and more, I feel g- these guys are... Tho- or that person we met there, or that person we met, they are amazing. They'd be much better at the job than me. But, you know, like I say, our j- our job isn't to be the best, you know. It's to do our best. And, and, you know, for some reason, I've been given this, this, the chance to do this. It's what I've always loved. I love the adventures. I love, like I say, the friendships and the, you know, the job we do. And I think you can only ride that and be grateful for it. And, and like I say, do, do your best. And, and not worry about, too much about how the TV makes it always look. I mean, the truth is, the TV always puts the best bits. They cut out the trips and the stumbles. And, and you put anything to music, and the guy's gonna look cool.

Steven Bartlett 10:06 (laughs)

Bear Grylls 10:07 You know? But I think an element to why the show worked when we first started doing it is that we did show a lot of the mistakes, and it was kind of the slips and the stumbles and the ums and the uhs. And I remember from day one, the, the producer that came, came to me and said, "Why don't... We wanna do this show where we drop you in the middle of difficult places, and you show us how to get out of there." And, and, and I kept saying no 'cause I didn't wanna do TV. I didn't know about TV. And I was like, "Uh-nuh-uh." And, you know, but he kept saying, "We don't want that. It doesn't need to be perfect." And I've... And it was my wife that said, "Well, why don't you go and try it?" You know. And I'd just left the military. We'd just got married. We were kinda starting out. And she was smart. She said, "Go and try it." And actually, it's never felt like making a perfect thing. I think the magic at that time... It was the first show that came along that let all the mud be on the lens and the rain on the lens and the trips and the stumbles, and you saw the cameraman's hand.

Steven Bartlett 10:57 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 10:57 And it would come... There was an i- a sort of interactivity that was-

Steven Bartlett 11:01 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 11:01 ... that was great. And I've always felt if it's not broke, don't fix it.

Steven Bartlett 11:05 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 11:05 The stumbles, the trips, the struggles, the, the mistakes are part of life. Uh, but the h- uh, part of my heart that dies is v- goes, it all makes it look too good (laughs) or too... You know, because at the end of the day, I'm a really regular guy. I'm a regular dad as well, you know. I'm not, I'm not brilliant at any of these things. But, uh, I know what I love, and I know the weapons that serve me best. And the weapons are always this, you know. Be dogged. Be determined. Be, be the most resilient person out there when it's hard. You know, come alive in the big moments. When it's not the big moments, you don't need to be front and center. But in the big moments, be there.

Steven Bartlett 11:42 I watched a lot of interviews of you before you, you arrived here today. And I think in pretty much all of them, you said, "I'm a normal guy. I'm a regular guy." And I get that.

Bear Grylls 11:52 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 11:52 I get that. I understand what you're saying. However... (laughs)

Bear Grylls 11:55 Well, it's not false modesty. I don't want... I'm not gonna let people build, build me into something I'm not, you know. And I think as I get older, I know the frailties more and more. And I'm not ashamed of them. I'm... Do you know what I mean? It's, it's okay. Many mistakes. Many, many strug-... It's okay. Otherwise things become all too...... you know, that- w- how y- i- it's, it's hard to relate to, you know?

Steven Bartlett 12:20 Mm-hmm. But you- you got through SAS selection.

Bear Grylls 12:24 Just. I got through all these at- just, you know?

Steven Bartlett 12:26 And people turned, turned to you and s- and said things and- as they turned back and quit, right? That, that, for me, is a filtering process of something.

Bear Grylls 12:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:34 Whatever that something is.

Bear Grylls 12:35 It's resili- it- all it is, is it's something we can control. It's not a filtering of talent. It's not-

Steven Bartlett 12:40 Hmm.

Bear Grylls 12:40 ... filtering of you're, you're, you're brilliant, you're through, you're not through, you know? It's, it's the genius of selection for the Special Forces is all about heart and spirit, and we can all have that. That's not a God-given talent. That's a, that's a muscle that builds with walking through the r- the door of failure time and time again and keep getting back up. You know? So I like that. That's why I say I am an ordinary person. That's why I also say "just" to so many things. Because, you know, yes, I've passed that, or, yes, you reached the top of this mountain, or yes, you do, but it's always just (laughs) and that's okay, you know? And it's also often by standing on the shoulders of many giants who've helped me, you know? Many, many times, you know? If I think of SS selection, you know, that time- there were so many times where somebody j- somebody just kinda believed in me at a critical time, you know? It might have been something where there's two corporals running something, going, "Do we want that guy? Do we want..." You know, a bit of luck falls on your side. Somebody backs you, you know, or, you know, you, you y- I don't know. Just the more I look back on so many so-called achievements, the more I see the hand of good people in critical moments. But as you know, you have to win the hearts of those people in the first place. But also, the role of just that dogged determination to keep going, and that's not a thing of being brilliant. It's just trying to keep going. Often sliding another step back, but keep moving forward. And you say that to, you know, I've got three boys now, three teenagers, and I think if you said to them, "What one thing does your dad say to you day after day before you go to school?" It's always just, you know, "Don't give up. Don't you never give up. Be kind. You know, beat a turn, but n- never give up." And they roll their eyes. But you know what? One day, they'll know that it's a key thing of-

Bear Grylls 14:27 key thing of life, you know. You don't have to be the best to do your best.

Steven Bartlett 14:31 Did that m- resilience muscle, as you call it, grow over time in you?

Bear Grylls 14:35 Of course. It's like, it's like everything. It's like the little, little seeds to the mighty oaks, you know? Where- how do we build it? Just inch by inch, and, uh, and that's a great thing because it's not something only some people can have. You know, it's universal for us all. We can all become... People think it's a God-given gift to someone be resilient. Resilience is that muscle, and you build it by failing and s- trying to stay positive and, and trying to get back on your feet and going again. You know, I look back and I remember being, uh, really excited about being picked for the Fourth Eleven football team as a linesman. (laughs) I wasn't even in the team, you know? And it was like my job was to bring on the oranges at half-time, you know? But it was like... And I remember my dad was the only dad on the side of the pitch cheering me on, and I thought it was so embarrassing. He's like, "I'm not even in the team," but my m- and dad said, you know, he's come to kind of... But actually those little steps of like, "I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna bring on those oranges," you're ne- you're never gonna forget it. It's gonna be great. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 15:35 (laughs)

Bear Grylls 15:35 And it's t- incremental, tiny little things. But having to fight for things, you know? It's... How often do we see at school though the, the school hero actually in life doesn't always do that brilliantly? And why is that? It's because they've got, you know, school's rewarded that, but they've never tested this. You know, where Little Johnny, who doesn't have that, doesn't get the awards, is a linesman, brings on the oranges, yeah, whatever it is-

Steven Bartlett 16:05 (laughs)

Bear Grylls 16:05 ... struggles, doesn't even get noticed, never wins anything, but never gives up and keeps doing his best and still doesn't really get noticed, but it doesn't matter. But when he leaves school, this might not be the biggest thing, but this is like ninja-like, you know?

Steven Bartlett 16:17 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 16:17 That, that resil- resilience muscle inside is strong. And as you know and as I know, in life that's the one that is gonna carry you further. And, and the unseen people at school often do better in life. It's like don't peak too early (laughs) . Don't peak at 14.

Steven Bartlett 16:33 I'm like, "Fucking hell, man."

Bear Grylls 16:34 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:35 I certainly didn't. I sat here with, um, Eubank, and I've been thinking about this idea of resilience and what it really means. And as we sit here today, my current hypothesis is basically resilience is the story. It's kind of this contract you have with yourself.

Bear Grylls 16:46 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 16:46 This self story about who you are. And in those moments when no one is looking, I, I was talking to Eubank about me being on the running machine and knowing I've got two minutes to go because I said before I started I'd run till 45 minutes, but my legs are hurting and they're cramping. And I could give up and walk away and no one's gonna know 'cause no one's here.

Bear Grylls 17:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:04 But what I... I alter my own self story in a way-

Bear Grylls 17:06 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 17:06 ... and I s- I send a message to myself that I am the type of person that gives up-

Bear Grylls 17:10 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 17:10 ... when it's tough. So is it really-

Bear Grylls 17:12 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 17:12 Do you, do you r- relate to that? And i- this kinda like you're crafting this story a- a- about who you are to yourself with every small decision you make. Doing the linesman job, you said, "I'm gonna do it the best I possibly can, and although it's not what I wanted, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it everything I can and not give up."

Bear Grylls 17:29 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:30 Does that relate at all?

Bear Grylls 17:30 And also, I think the thing of giving up is that, you know, what is it? It's that thing of temporary pleasure, long term-

Steven Bartlett 17:37 Yeah, that sounds true.

Bear Grylls 17:38 ... not, you know. And, and for me, I just, I, I developed this thing where whenever people were quitting or complaining, I like those moments. For me it was like, okay, there's all the br- all the chat and the bravado is always there at the beginning. Everyone's full of that. But bring it down. Put the squeeze on, you know? We're like grapes.

Steven Bartlett 17:56 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 17:56 Squeeze us, you see what's inside. Bring the squeeze, bring the squeeze. Now we see character, see what people are like. And for me, it b- just became whenever I saw people quitting or complaining, especially complaining, you see it so much as i- in the military s- see it on big expeditions, you see it even when we're filming TV shows when people... You know, when it gets hard, you know, and you're hungry and you're scared and you're up against it and you're dehydrated, you know, those are the moments. And for me it just became a trigger. When everyone's complaining-... and giving up. It's a time to give more, you know, just, you don't have to give more in the early times. Just wait until it's... And that's how you separate yourselves in, in business and in life and in relationship, you know, in the big moments. You know, look at a relationship, when it's, when you're under that real ton and everyone's throwing it, you know, are you gonna really throw that nasty comment or kind of hold it and just try to be gracious and kind in those big moments, you know? And, uh, and I like that. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't complicated to think about under pressure. It was just like, "When everything's going wrong, that's the time to give more rather than give up." And I held onto that in many difficult moments, you know, across many different arenas. And, um, and it's helped me, you know. It's, I remember, this guy said to me once, he said, "And you can do anything for another 10 seconds."

Steven Bartlett 19:10 (laughs)

Bear Grylls 19:10 I like that. You know, when it's, you're in that moment, you d- keep going another 10 seconds.

Steven Bartlett 19:15 That makes you different though. You gotta admit, because most people don't want another 10 seconds.

Bear Grylls 19:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:22 So-

Bear Grylls 19:22 Well, it hurt. It, it hurts. I'm not saying it's not gonna hurt. It's gonna hurt. But that fire inside's in, it's in us, in us all, you know. It's just you've got to dig sometimes. But it's, it's a great truth to know that it's there. When you dig, you know, it, it's there. And, uh, and I think, as you say, once you get used to it and you start to practice it, the muscle gets stronger.

Steven Bartlett 19:42 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 19:42 And then you almost seek out tough times. You know this is a chance to, to shine, you know. And as you say, that's how you separate yourselves in life, you know. The, you're gonna reach these points, but, but in those big moment, what are you, what, you're gonna go this way. How are you gonna act in those big moments? And it's always what separates, you know, reaching those summits from not reaching those summits.

Steven Bartlett 20:01 Never Give Up is the name of your latest book. When is there a time to give up?

Bear Grylls 20:08 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 20:08 Because there is a wildly believed, I think, social phrase which is like, "Quitting is for losers," right? But some t- I, when I look at my own life and my own career, quitting has played quite an important role sometimes in leaving-

Bear Grylls 20:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:19 ... a situation that wasn't good. So when should we give up?

Bear Grylls 20:22 Well, that's called wisdom, and it comes with experience. And there's always, there's always a right, uh... First of all, my 16-year-old nephew came to me the other day. I said, I said, "Beb, you're really, you need a n- not the smoking on the head. You, you're smoking a lot at the moment." He went, "But ever since I were a kid, you told me never give up."

Steven Bartlett 20:39 (laughs)

Bear Grylls 20:39 I said, "Apart from the cigarettes." You know, there's always a time to give things up. And some t- and experience some wisdom, you know. You, you just don't wanna be a pig-headed head in the dirt, just, "Ugh." You know?

Steven Bartlett 20:51 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 20:51 That's not smart. That's not smart. The, you know, intuition and experience n- has to know when, "Hold on, this isn't, this isn't maybe the right route. Let's just take a step back." And I think it's why so often great mountaineers are often a little bit older, because they have that patience and that judgment. And when you're y- young and you don't care and you kind of maybe should be listening to that intuition and maybe the weather's changed or something's happening that's saying, "Hold," you know, and you go and you die. It's why, it's why so many high altitude mountaineers' deaths is that, that, you know, relentless ability not to adapt or change your plan. Where with age, you have that ability to listen to your instinct, to the mountains, to the circumstances, and maybe adapt and maybe change. And as, as we know, you know, with big mountains, they'll always be there. So I think the ability to life, to listen-

Steven Bartlett 21:41 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 21:41 ... to that and to amend and to adapt is super important. And look at soldiering, same, it was always this, "Thinking man, soldier," you know, was the, was the mantra of a lot of the Special Forces staff, is always being able to adapt, improvise, adapt, overcome, you know.

Steven Bartlett 21:55 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 21:55 That, that's, that's leading with this and with this. So of course there's a time for pulling back and holding.

Steven Bartlett 22:01 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 22:01 But, uh, I think generally the message, you know, 90% of the time most people don't get to where they're going, not, not because of a lack of skills or talent. It's b- it's that lack of kind of ability to keep going when it's hard. And that's why I think doing little things every day, small things that, you know, whatever it is, that just push your, push this muscle a bit, is good, you know. Even if it's like, I mean, I have a, I've had a thing for years and it's now super popular. Everyone's kinda, you know, doing it, you know, the ice bath training.

Steven Bartlett 22:31 Oh, yeah.

Bear Grylls 22:32 You know, but I've done it for years, and I love this thing. It's just three minutes a day, I'm just in that cold water, you know, whether it's a river or in winter or a lake or, you know, at nighttime, and you know, I try and find somewhere every day, just get in that cold. And it hurts, still hurts. But it's just a little some- little something, whatever it is, that's, you know, something that's difficult to do. Because most people spend their lives avoiding the, the painful, the difficult, you know. That they're scared of public speaking or they're scared of this... So they avoid the things that challenge us. But as you know, it's where growth happens, and growth isn't always fun. It's often painful, but it's like a muscle. The more you push it, the more you get used to it. You know, there's a great thing at the Commando Training Center in Lympstone that just says, "Comfortable with uncertainty."

Steven Bartlett 23:15 Hmm.

Bear Grylls 23:15 And it's a great thing for life, you know. Don't get sat in that comfort zone too much. You know, I call it a comfort pit, somewhere to get out of quickly.

Steven Bartlett 23:24 (laughs) I was wondering

Steven Bartlett 23:26 if, like training in the gym, when I do my repetitions of the weights, I then need a bigger weight to get the same gain.

Bear Grylls 23:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:34 So do you find yourself needing like a bigger thrill or a bigger expedition or a greater challenge to get the same, like, feeling of fulfillment and contempt from what y- your work these days, and where do you find now-

Bear Grylls 23:44 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:44 ... after you've climbed Everest and done all you've done?

Bear Grylls 23:47 I, I don't feel that, no.

Steven Bartlett 23:49 You don't feel that?

Bear Grylls 23:49 I don't, I don't, I don't feel that. I, I think, um, what you're saying in the question is that you actually, th- is that where you get your fulfillment, through that thing?

Steven Bartlett 23:56 Hmm.

Bear Grylls 23:56 And the answer is no. It's not where I get ful- fulfillment. I, I, I do these things, I try and do the difficult things just to keep that inside muscle honed a little bit. But it's not always about bigger and better and uh, uh, you know. It's, as I read the other day, half of life is getting to where you, you know, achieving your goals, and the other half of life is being really happy to enjoy it.

Steven Bartlett 24:18 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 24:19 The second one's the harder one to do. And-I think a big, you know, I'll be super lucky to fulfill so many things. I still have many goals, many ambitions, but it's not goals and ambitions that trump the last one, and ever bigger and ugh. You know, it's not like that. It's just really grateful and try make sure you stay alive, you know, make sure you're always grateful for the many good things and the luck you've had along the way. You know, keep that muscle inside honed, keep, keep working, keep doing your best. But it's definitely not where I find the fulfillment. It's not, it's not like... The, the achievement's never gonna fulfill that hole.

Steven Bartlett 24:53 Did you use to think it would?

Bear Grylls 24:55 Maybe a little bit. I think when I was young I th- you know, I think Everest certainly for me was such a s- symbol of like, "I'm gonna do this," you know. That it was at a time when only I think 20 odd Brits had ever climbed it and it was like, "I thought this is gonna be epic," you know. And, and then you see the realities of, you know, we have four... Climbers lose their lives up there. And it re-rattled me in many ways and I was lucky to reach the top and got back in one piece, but it didn't answer that question of, you know... I, I don't know, I don't think I'd climb it now. I'm not so out on a quest to kind of prove anything. But I think when you're young it's, it's half of it's good to have a quest, you know, you've gotta have that goal. But the other half is like it's not, it's not the answer to life, is it? You know, it's, it's a, you know, that maybe comes from elsewhere and with time and experience you learn the real answer to life is always rooted in, you know, something inside and that, and relationships with great people and, you know, a lot of it I think comes down to love actually, you know, being, uh, knowing those connections with great people and a love of whatever it could, it can be, a love of the outdoors, a love of what you do, you know. But, um-

Steven Bartlett 26:01 Have y-

Bear Grylls 26:01 ... it's not found in achievement always.

Steven Bartlett 26:03 Have you found where it is found? You don't seem to be so certain exactly where that, that feeling of fulfillment, um... You s- talked about the second half, which is like enjoying the goals.

Bear Grylls 26:17 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 26:17 Have you figured that bit out?

Bear Grylls 26:19 I think it's a lifelong journey of figuring it out, you know. I, I, I hope I edge closer to where it's not found, which is it's never found in trophies and triumphs and accolades, you know. Those things, I see those things with clearer lenses now, you know. I'm more proud of t- be married, you know, 22 years, you know, I got three great boys, you know, the, the simpler things I'm, I'm more proud of. I think, you know, where do I really find fulfillment? I think, um, I think my faith is a quiet thing in that sense. You know, faith's always a tricky one but... And hard to articulate very well, but it's definitely comes from a place of like that you're, you're okay, you're okay. We're, we're forgiven, we're loved, empowered and, um, tryn' live it, live life as best you can, eyes wide open with, you know, gratitude in your heart and a tough resilient spirit to go for things. And, uh, and I look at life in those sort of terms more and more.

Steven Bartlett 27:21 I feel like

Steven Bartlett 27:22 in the, in the 2022 in the UK where I think w- we've grown more atheist as a society, I mean some people say there's no such thing as an atheist, but we've grown more, um, atheist in our viewpoints. It is harder to communicate if you do have a faith. Why did you say that it's a, it's a tricky thing?

Bear Grylls 27:41 I think it's been so tarnished. I think religion has been so tarnished. And I g- I get that. I was always the least religious person growing up. I just thought... I mean as a kid I had a really natural faith, always believed in some higher power and that I could feel, you know, there was something around, you know, as a little kid it was like, "Ah, wow."

Steven Bartlett 28:00 Mm.

Bear Grylls 28:01 And then I think I went to school and then s- you know, you had to go church and they all wore white cassocks and spoke in Latin and I thought, "Gosh, I've really missed it," you know, this is actually what it's about. And it's been a life journey to unwind all of that and realize actually the li'l me had it right, you know. Faith is, faith is in your heart knowing, knowing that you're not alone and, and there's something bigger than us out there and they're for us not... You know, that, that power is for us, not against us. And despite my doubts and all of those sort of things, I'm gonna put my trust in that and try and, you know, have love at the center of all we do, and, and live empowered and go for things, and not be scared to fail, and not be driven by fear and all those sort of things. Isn't that to me what f- faith is. Um, so it's hard to articulate I think because it's personal and it's, it's intimate, and also it's, like I say, it's, it's... Has just as many doubts as it does... You know, doubt and faith-

Steven Bartlett 29:01 Yeah.

Bear Grylls 29:01 ... two sides of the same coin, you know, I think l- it does feel like that for me. But through it all I would say my Christian faith has been a real backbone and a kinda secret strength in many tricky moments. You know, light to a dark path I always kind of feel, it's that sort of thing. So yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:18 I, I did wonder when I was reading about your faith and I watched you pray for Obama, uh, just at the end of your time with him, because I've sat here with guests who have undergone and witnessed such horrific things in their, in their lives and they've... and it's shaken their faith. In fact-

Bear Grylls 29:32 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 29:32 ... Eubank was one of them that his brother suddenly died, they were both very religious, and that shook his faith. And being out in nature and being on those expeditions up Everest where two people fall to their death and two s- you know, die of the cold, one would, might assume that those moments would shake your, your faith, but it sounds like it's made it stronger in a way, from what you've said.

Bear Grylls 29:50 Well I think that two things happen often. You get shaken and strengthened. And, uh, actually my experience of people, people who've really been taken to the edge, that's actually where they find their faith, you know. You look at so many of the concentration camp stories and stuff, you know. It's, uh, you know, s- two sides looking at it. One person said, "There can be no God. I've seen, I've witnessed evil personified," and the, uh, it was a v- I can't remember who it was and he said, "I've been to the edge and I know there's no place that God isn't."

Steven Bartlett 30:25 Mm.

Bear Grylls 30:26 You know, it's all how we look at it, how we choose to live. And, uh-... I choose to, choose to try and live with, you know, faith. Faith in other people, faith in ourselves, faith in the Almighty. And that, and that helped me. But it's, it's funny, that thing with Obama, 'cause in a way, that was never meant to be on TV. It was, uh, just a spontaneous thing at the end of the journey. And I'd... You know, as you know, when you spend time with people, you get a sense of someone.

Steven Bartlett 30:51 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 30:52 And I think, at the end of that journey with Obama, I got a real sense that, here's a guy with the weight of the world on his shoulders, you know? And he, he, he got lighter as the journey went on. And by the end, he said, "Do you know what? It's one of the best days of my presidency. I'm out of the office. I'm out of a suit. Talking about stuff that's in here rather than being grilled on, you know, politics." And, and I could see him light- getting lighter, you know?

Steven Bartlett 31:16 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 31:16 And I just said at the end, I said, "First of all, you... Good job. You're doing... You t- you probably... I don't know if you get told it very often. Most people are giving you hell but g- you know, you're doing your best. Dip, dip, div, you know?"

Steven Bartlett 31:27 (laughs)

Bear Grylls 31:27 And I wanted to just say, you know... I don't know, it felt like, "Let's ref- try and refill his fuel tank a bit."

Steven Bartlett 31:32 Yeah, yeah.

Bear Grylls 31:32 And actually, it ended up going in the show. You know, I put a hand on his shoulder and said, you know, "Strength to this guy, you know, in the big decisions. Amen," you know? And it wasn't really more complicated than that. But I don't know, I think the wild always creates honest connections without the fluff, and it didn't feel unnatural and, you know. But it's funny how the e- effect of that, I still get people to this day talk about that a lot. And they're quite unlikely people who often say, "That was an... That was a good, good moment." Not always easy, I mean, awkward sometimes, isn't it, doing that sort of thing?

Steven Bartlett 32:05 Mm-hmm, of course.

Bear Grylls 32:06 But, but that's okay. I've, I've learned that that's okay. Dude, sometimes the awkward things are, are the best things. Telling someone that, you know, you know, they're, that they're amazing, you know? It can be awkward to a good friend, but can, can mean a lot.

Steven Bartlett 32:24 Quick one. We bring in eight people a month to watch these conversations live here in the studio when we're here in the UK and when we're in LA. If you want to be one of those people, all you've got to do is hit Subscribe. You said

Steven Bartlett 32:37 earlier about being rattled after Everest. One would never assume that, of course. You climbed the biggest mountain in the world, and you come down and you're rattled and your confidence is knocked.

Bear Grylls 32:49 I think big mountains are humbling, you know? And sometimes, you, you take on these big projects and it's about, "Come on, we're gonna do it," and you're, you're full of that confidence. But, um, but it's often quite surface. And I think, when you see things close up and... It, it w- it w- I think I came away with a real awareness of that I'd been really lucky and got away with my life where others hadn't up there, and this stage, Everest was killing one in six people's lives, you know? And beforehand, I'd read about that, and it was almost kinda... It was almost glamorous. It was almost, like, romantic, you know? But you see the, see the reality of it close up, and it's, it's not romantic. It's, it's dark and, and, and difficult and confusing. And, uh, and I think my feeling at the end of it was that I'd got really lucky, you know? I'd been, no doubt, dug deep in a few big moments and, you know, it was some 92 days on that mountain, so there's a lot of time that you do have to dig deep. But ultimately, had a bit of luck at key times. And I think I came a- away aware of that and, and grateful for that, but less certain that, just because you're determined in life doesn't mean everything's gonna go well, you know? And I think beforehand I kind of thought, "If you give everything, it's all gonna work out." But as you know, in, in everything in life, there, there's no guarantees, you know? We're, we, we live a l- a gloves-off life, you know? Life is gloves off. There are no rules of kind of, like, if you, if you give your best, it's all gonna be, you know, roses and sunshine. You, you know, you can give the best in the world and it's gonna be... Hit you sometimes. You know, you get ill or something happens. And I think that's the part of me that got a bit shaken and... But, you know, that's just life, and you have to live with your eyes wide open to that and, and still choose to try and make the good decisions and pick the good attitudes and put them on like a T-shirt every day, that, even though the gloves are off, we're gonna go for this, we're gonna do our best to be positive, do our best to give our best, and keep going for it.

Steven Bartlett 34:45 Those four people that passed away, were they climbing with you?

Bear Grylls 34:49 Two Russians and a, um, a Brit and a New Zealanders from other teams. But they were, they were on the mountain at the same time and, and never came back. And I remember with their teammates, you know, afterwards, just them, them in tears and sitting with them and... It does, it definitely made me question a lot at the time, "Is any mountain really worth a life?" Of which the clear answer is no. But at the time, you're, sometimes your ambition is, you know, it's like, "We're gonna go for it." And, and that's why I think now, kind of with a bit of time and experience, would I, would I do it now? Would I take a one-in-six chance of not coming home now? No, 'cause you have more to live for. But I think at the time I was like, "I'm all in. I'm gonna go f- I wanna make my mark, you know, at a, at a young age." And, uh, and the truth is, I got lucky.

Steven Bartlett 35:37 Fame. (laughs)

Bear Grylls 35:40 Fame, yeah. What does that one mean? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 35:42 Yeah, you tell me.

Bear Grylls 35:43 Well-

Steven Bartlett 35:43 I've been on, only on the TV for a couple of minutes. I mean, (laughs) so... But you've been on there for many, many, many, many years. So, I was hoping maybe you could give me a little bit of an overview of what fame is.

Bear Grylls 35:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:56 'Cause, you know, when I looked at Bear Grylls podcast, and I really couldn't find much. There was re- for someone that's been in the public eye for so long, could barely find anything. And then I read this quote that you, you don't like... Sometimes you feel like when you meet someone, there's a sense of you're worried you might disappoint them because they're expecting you to be something else.

Bear Grylls 36:16 Well, I think that's true. (laughs) I think part of my kind of... The, the answer is I don't do very many of these. You know, uh, I think, um... But that's okay. I'm not so hungry to, for more people to know everything, you know? I, I do...... do these sort of things every now and again, with, with good people and, and when it feels right. You know, I think, I think one of the reasons I get, I get less comfortable sometimes in big groups of people and, and doing press stuff or doings, you know, I- I'm not very n- I don't really like the cameras on me, if I'm honest. I struggle really with that. It's a one... You know, I never gone to TV for that. You know, I got onto TV 'cause, you know, this producer said, "Do you wanna try this thing?" And like I said, we were just married and starting out and pretty broke. And it was like, "Let's go for it. Let's see what, see what happens." But the sort of the recognition side of things, you know, I struggle with the word fame. I think it's a weird one. But I think the recognition side of things, I, I struggle with more. Um, and I think-

Steven Bartlett 37:16 Why?

Bear Grylls 37:16 ... part of it is a little part of me feels I'm never gonna be quite as good as people expect, you know, in, in... as the TV sometimes makes out. And therefore, less is more. Very happy with my family (laughs) and friends. And I go and work, but I wanna kinda come home afterwards. But when it comes to fame, you know, you, you say that, you, you say about that, I- I've, I kinda learnt I think over the years to... First, we'll take it with a, not just a pinch of salt, but with a bucket of salt. You know, don't believe it. It doesn't... It's not where your worth is. Your we- you know, if your worth is that, you're always gonna struggle 'cause it goes up and down. It's, ultimately it's going down, isn't it? You know, you're, you're, you know, when we're, when we're 95 years old, nobody's gonna know who, who I am and, and-

Steven Bartlett 38:01 Speak for yourself. (laughs) I'm joking.

Bear Grylls 38:03 Well-

Steven Bartlett 38:03 I'm joking.

Bear Grylls 38:03 ... but, but, and it, and it doesn't matter. You know-

Steven Bartlett 38:06 No, you're right.

Bear Grylls 38:06 ... it doesn't. But I'll, I'll certain it's a self-worth. You're always gonna be fighting and losing battle really.

Steven Bartlett 38:10 Yeah, yeah.

Bear Grylls 38:10 So, I take it all with a bucket of salt. Um, I think for my family, growing up with a little bit of that, that they've... I always say to our boys growing up, "We got friends all over the world." And look at it like that. Amazing connections. You know, I can go to, go to any country and, and there's a connection with, with, with people there. And people wanna tell their stories and go, "Oh, I've just been camping with my, you know, my son," or, "My, you know, my uncle was this or did that," or, "My son's a scout, daughter's a scout," or whatever it is. And I like those connections, always grateful for people's stories. And, and that's fine. So, that's how I kind of look at it. Pinch of salt, don't believe it all, but, uh, always be grateful for friends all over the world.

Steven Bartlett 38:51 Did you struggle with it at the start?

Bear Grylls 38:53 I think I struggled with it when I felt the attention was on me. I think I didn't like that. I, that, that felt... I, I remember so well in the early days when we started doing Man vs. Wild, first two, two seasons, we were just gunning and going, and it was all just kind of fun. Out there with a small crew. I never really... Didn't see it go down telly. It was going out in America at the time, so I was over in the UK. I didn't see it. I didn't know what was happening. It was just lucky. It was good timing, and it just worked, you know. It just was meant to be at that time. But I didn't really see much of that 'cause I'd come home and-

Steven Bartlett 39:24 You know.

Bear Grylls 39:24 ... live a regular life. And I remember the head of Discovery after a couple of seasons say, you know, "Your show's best on Discovery. It's getting over a billion viewers now around the world." And, uh, and my heart sank. I really started to struggle with it, and I suddenly started to think when we were filming, I'd be like self-conscious, and, "Wha- what am I saying?" And all that. This is... And the fun went out of it, and my... I got more anxious with it all. And I thought, "I don't want people looking at this or doing this, or..." And it was a really sort of marked time of... And the crew said it. So, they said, "Is everything okay?" And I think I had to learn to... It's about other people, you know. And when I realized people coming up, and they weren't going, you know, "You're amazing." They would go, "I took my son camping," or, or, "My whatever did that." And when I realized it was about them, and I've really tried to shift it in my brain that everything's about them. You know, it's what it brings out, whether it's a single mom coming to me saying, "When you once said about you're in that storm in the jungle, and you said sometimes life is, it's gonna beat you up, and you just gotta be dogged, and keep going, keep your head down. You know, the storms won't last forever."

Steven Bartlett 40:31 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 40:31 And I really understood that as a single mom who's trying to hold down all these jobs I've got. You know, that for me, lifted my whole... I thought, "That's why I do this job." And it kinda shifted it off me, and, and, and, and that's why I've always loved my job now as, like, Chief Scout. You know, for me, that was a revolution to be able to say, when people come up to me and go, you know, "Oh, you've done this with us now." "Yeah, but look what you could do. You could join, you know, you could join that, and you can do this." And, you know-

Steven Bartlett 40:57 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 40:57 ... somewhere to be able to not deflect, but sort of direct people a little bit.

Steven Bartlett 41:03 And refrain.

Bear Grylls 41:04 And I, I get such a kick out of that. It's why I love Running Wild so much 'cause it's about other people. It's about taking these rookies, who might be amazing rookies, but they're often wilderness rookies-

Steven Bartlett 41:14 Hmm.

Bear Grylls 41:14 ... and opening their eyes to my office, you know, the outdoors, what the wild can do for people that light inside, that pride, that come on, you know, that magic.

Steven Bartlett 41:23 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 41:24 And, uh, and saying, "Look at this." And that freed me a lot away from kind of, look at, look at, you know, look that way instead of this way. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:34 You said a word

Steven Bartlett 41:35 there, which I, I started thinking about a lot, which was the word anxiety, which I actually think is quite an interesting thing 'cause your, much of your work is about the natural world. And one of the, I think, unnatural human signals is anxiety. It kinda tells you something that you're potentially doing wrong, maybe-

Bear Grylls 41:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:52 ... a train of thought that you've attached yourself to, which is destructive or whatever else. And depression is one of those things, is what I talk about a lot, is also seems to be a pretty clear signal, a natural signal that we are... You know, some of my guests have said that they've, it's a signal that they've been disconnected from their tribe.

Bear Grylls 42:07 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:08 And it's, and they've explained the science of that. And, um, and even re- the, the signal of rejection and how that makes us feel is a prehistoric signal telling us to get back into our tribe because, or that there's a chance we might be thrown off the island by our tribe because we're being rejected, so to change our behavior, and all of these signals. Anxiety, depression, and this whole mental health, um, awareness that's emerged in the last 10 years-

Bear Grylls 42:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 42:32 ... what's your relationship been like with those, with those, um, those topics?

Bear Grylls 42:38 First of all, it's- it's amazing that people are talking about this and focusing on it more. You know? I think that, you know, it's- it's long overdue and it's a key part of our arsenal for life, isn't it? Our weapons that are gonna help make your heart happy.

Steven Bartlett 42:52 Mm.

Bear Grylls 42:52 You know, y- y- you need to f- you need to look after the physical.

Steven Bartlett 42:55 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 42:55 You need to look after the emotional, you need to look after the spiritual.

Steven Bartlett 42:58 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 42:58 And you need to look after the mental side of things, you know? It's all, these are all weapons in our arsenal we've got to focus on. And, and if you neglect one-

Steven Bartlett 43:06 Mm.

Bear Grylls 43:07 ... there's always gonna be a little part of your heart that is gonna struggle a bit, if you, if you, whether it's emotional, physical or mental. So you gotta try and put things in place that help your mental health. And, um, and I think people for many years often neglected that. You shut things away. But actually the, so many of the things that help us mentally are simple things. Li- l- as you say, those connections to people and that honesty and vulnerability. And- and like we've been talking about, not letting yourself sort of live a life that actually isn't real.

Steven Bartlett 43:36 Yeah.

Bear Grylls 43:36 Not letting people make you into that hero that you don't always feel... You know, stay honest, stay connected, talk to people. You know, be outside. How g- how many times do we see studies proving that when we're outside and we're in the sun and we're expressing and we're working hard and we're connected to people, that's why the wild is such an amazing mental health weapon to build up that resource, you know? In a world that often depletes the resource. You know, all of this stuff is always pulling, you know, I find. Pulling, pulling, you know, pull, leaves you emptier. But for me, the wild and connection and the sun and outdoors and swimming in cold rivers and, and challenge and failing and all these sort of things build up, I find for me help my mental health. You can't take your eye off the ball with mental health.

Steven Bartlett 44:21 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 44:21 You gotta... And you're not always gonna get it right, and that's okay.

Steven Bartlett 44:26 Is there a time in your life where you discovered mental health was a very real thing because of an experience that you'd had? 'Cause I think for many years, I thought it was something that happened to other people. And then there's a couple of sort of catalytic events that happened in my life that made me realize that I am not immune to anxiety, to feelings, you know, depressive symptoms and all of those things. But is there something in your life where there was a pivotal moment, or life events typically are the catalyst of those things where you go, "Oh, this is something that I now need to put as a priority"?

Bear Grylls 44:55 I think I've been lucky in the sense that I've- I've never suffered from really bad depression, you know, whereas many, many friends I've stood alongside have really had battles. I think I've always had a, you know, a- an intuition of when I need to change something and when I'm struggling a little bit and when, "Hold on, this- this feeling of- of anxiety has been going on a bit. Oh, what can we ch- wha- what helps me?"

Steven Bartlett 45:18 Mm.

Bear Grylls 45:18 And tr- I've always sort of accidentally s- found things that help make that problem better.

Steven Bartlett 45:25 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 45:25 And for me it's been that go-to of being outdoors, being with great friends.

Steven Bartlett 45:28 Yeah.

Bear Grylls 45:28 Having a few, just a few good friends rather than lots and lots of friends. You know, even things like our- our Be Military Fit, our BMF, our veterans-run fitness business has helped me so much because it's a collective tribe of e- you know, often veterans, people who need that camaraderie but want to train, want to stay physically fit, don't want to be in a gym inside with white light and all of that. They wanna be outside in the fresh air, they wanna be down in the dirt a little bit, and they wanna laugh at themselves in situations and face a few, you know, rain-swept early mornings training outside in a park together and, and like our physical health, the more we can be aware of the things that do help and have proven to help-

Steven Bartlett 46:08 Mm.

Bear Grylls 46:09 ... and to, to gravitate towards those, seek those things in our life, be outside, be connected, train (laughs) , you know-

Steven Bartlett 46:15 Mm.

Bear Grylls 46:15 ... be honest, have a few friends, the more it's gonna help us when we do have the dark moments. And I've never met anyone who doesn't have them. You know, they might tell you they don't, but everyone has these moments and I certainly, I certainly have. And, but I've also never met a strong person who's had an easy past. You know, it's just part of it. If you're gonna go for big things and you're gonna shoot for the top, you're gonna have struggles and failures and... Part of life.

Steven Bartlett 46:40 When was your darkest

Steven Bartlett 46:41 moment?

Bear Grylls 46:42 One was when I, when I broke my back in the military and was in rehabilitation for a long time and, you know, so much of my rock in my life had been that I was physically strong and I was doing a job I loved and suddenly I couldn't even reach the bathroom without excruciating agony and, you know, my back was broken in three places and, you know, that, th- e- you know, I had to then leave my job, you know, with the military and- and it was just a, "What am I gonna do with my life?" You know? But I also look at that time and I think if I hadn't have gone through that, I don't think I ever would have actually had the drive and the impetus to make that Everest expedition happen at that young age. And if I hadn't done that, that wouldn't have opened the door to other things and then eventually the TV and... You know, it's like-

Steven Bartlett 47:23 Oh my gosh.

Bear Grylls 47:23 ... it's like these- these clouds that often... You know, it's why not-

Steven Bartlett 47:27 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 47:27 ... to be scared when life does hit you sideways 'cause there's often a, sort of a plan there. You've just go- gotta try and keep moving forward towards it. But that was definitely a dark time and I think also losing my dad at a young age. I mean, Chara, my wife, and me both lost our parents within 10 weeks of each other in year one of marriage and it was... We were young. We were 24, t- 25 and, uh, just starting out on life and I think we always had that safety net of our parents behind us, you know, and, and I think suddenly both losing our dads and now being responsible for our mums and... It was, uh, it definitely took that safety net away and it was like, "Wow, we're both dealing with trauma here. Not always very well." But we, we've gotta... I mean, it, I look back now and actually it's what made us, made us really tight t- and to have a love and a trust and a vulnerability together that has been a key thing in our relationship I think ever since. But at the time, it was just pure pain (laughs) and a, and a, and a huge hole that is still there to the day, you know? I mean, I, you know, I'm seeing our three boys grow up. The great, the great loss for me is that, you know, they will never know my dad or he would never know them and how alike he was, they are, and all of these dynamics that we-... take for granted. And so often I see friends now and they go, "Oh, my, you know, my mum's a bit poorly and my da..." I'm thinking, there's part of me thinking, you know, you're so lucky to have had your parents for that long and we, I was dealing with looking after sort of my mum and all her sort of bills and everything and, you know, when I was 25, you know, it's been going on a long time but, but at the same time I think my dad taught me so many of the key things in life which was back to that earlier point of, like, you know, be resilient and, and be kind and keep going and, and those things I'll always be grateful for. And I wish, my only regret is that I didn't get a chance to say to him, "Wow, you were right. You were actually right all along when I kicked against it and kind of, you know, you were right. You know, follow your dreams, be kind, be resilient, never give up." And, uh, I never said thank you enough for that.

Steven Bartlett 49:37 That's something I

Steven Bartlett 49:38 always worry about. My dad is, has outlived his siblings and, um, I don't feel like I've made enough of an effort to stay connected. There's something about us where we just think our parents are gonna be around forever like you, when you-

Bear Grylls 49:52 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:52 ... said the safety blanket thing. It's like this-

Bear Grylls 49:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:54 It's almost like it reminds me of COVID where I didn't realize the tectonic plate of society could ever move.

Bear Grylls 49:59 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:59 So I built my life, like, ignorantly on this foundation-

Bear Grylls 50:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 50:02 ... that society would be open and that... And then s- one day someone showed me that there was even a tectonic plate underneath me that I didn't know was there. And my parents are the same thing, they've just always been there so I assume-

Bear Grylls 50:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 50:13 ... naively that they always will be but...

Bear Grylls 50:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 50:16 What would you say to, um, what advice would you give me about...

Bear Grylls 50:19 Well, never take that for granted.

Steven Bartlett 50:21 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 50:21 And never, never be scared of saying it. I mean, tell him now. You know, tell him on this, he'll listen to this.

Steven Bartlett 50:28 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 50:28 He, he's probably incredibly, incredibly proud of you. All you've achieved superceded his wildest dreams of what a son could be and he should be proud and tell him.

Steven Bartlett 50:43 What would you tell your dad if he was listening? Maybe he is.

Bear Grylls 50:46 Well I think I'd, I'd say, "Thank you for, for the little things." You know, it's not the, it's, "Thanks for being there on that touchline when I was linesman." You know, "Thanks for not putting too much focus just on success and school reports and being top. Thank you for putting focus on being kind and having a dream even though it might not be the path most trodden."

Steven Bartlett 51:11 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 51:11 You know, but, but go for it. If it's your dream, go for it. And thanks for saying that never give up is the, is the golden currency of life rather than, you know, good looks, uh, sporty talent or academic brilliance.

Steven Bartlett 51:25 (laughs)

Bear Grylls 51:26 But, you know, I think, um, for you, your dad, your dad knows, you know, he, I'm sure he knows but never stop telling him, you know, 'cause I think really parental relationship's one of those ones that's always gonna be, there are always going to be dynamics and struggles and fallouts and arguments stuff but you can never articulate it too much that you love someone and you can never overestimate how much those simple awkward difficult words to say mean. I mean, my great buddy said he really wanted to tell his dad one time he loved him but he knew he was so English he wouldn't h- his father, it would be a really difficult thing to say.

Steven Bartlett 52:04 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 52:04 And eventually he said, "I'm gonna say to him." He said, "Dad I just wanna just let you know I really love you." And his son, his dad goes, "You been drinking?" (laughs) You know, but the thing is, that's okay. His dad would go home that night knowing that he hadn't been drinking, the guy, his son hadn't been drinking but that was special and I think those awkward, it's back to that thing of doing sometimes the awkward difficult things like the prayer with Obama is a really good thing, you know, and, and I've tried to get better at this in my life of saying thank you and, and doing nice things and say- saying awkward but good things to people. I mean, I said it to my great buddy the other day, Rupert, I said to him, you know, we work a lot together and stuff, so I said, "Actually, you know, forget the work side of things, you, you're such a lovely friend." And though, yeah, I literally saw, boom, I saw eyes well up just for a second, you know. It was like, you know, "Oh, you're great, great, no it's okay, keep, keep, keep training," or whatever we were doing. You know, but it's, sometimes the awkward things are the good things and, um, I hope as I live and do more in life that I, I, I create more and more of those moments 'cause there are many people that I, like I said I stand on the shoulders of many giants that are the real heroes in my life and I, I definitely consider my dad one. I definitely consider those I served alongside in the military many still friends to this day. I mean, I was with Corporal Williams, my old, you know, squadron-

Steven Bartlett 53:29 (laughs)

Bear Grylls 53:30 ... you know, patrol commander who's now aged, you know, 70-

Steven Bartlett 53:34 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 53:34 ... and, uh, lives in Merthyr Tydfil. I was with him the other day for a walk in the Brecons just to remind him, I go, "You've, you've been an amazing ph- friend through life and I'll never forget the belief you had in me in the early days. Thank you," you know. I consider the camera crew I work with in that same vein and, uh, never take those for granted. (paper crinkles)

Steven Bartlett 53:55 Quick one. I just wanted to share a fantastic initiative from one of my podcast sponsors for those of you that are looking to grow your business online. Right now, you can get 200 pounds of social media advertising paid for by Vodafone Business when you sign up to three unlimited mobile plans. Social media has a huge impact on your business. If I had to start my business again from scratch right now, the first thing I would do is produce content daily at a high cadence. The thing that grew my company so fast was producing content on social media platforms. It helps your company become known and builds your digital reputation/personal brand. If you've not ventured into the space of social media or social media advertising before, don't worry. Vodafone Business will also provide the knowledge, support, and tips you need in creating a plan all through Vodafone vHub. To find out more and how I'd spend that 200 pounds that Vodafone are giving, search "Vodafone digital boost" and obviously terms and conditions apply.

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Bear Grylls 55:36 (page turns) Your wonderful wife. I remember you saying once upon a time, if you really want to know someone, you've got to ask the wife and kids what they're like. Well, you know, so true, isn't it? I mean... What if I asked your wife, what would she say? Oh. (laughs) What would she say about the flawed... She probably says flawed. (laughs) Flawed. Flawed. But, you know... In what way? I think loyalty and, and sticking through things and knowing the real us and, and that we're not perfect and we, we're there for each other is, is, creates a power to it. And I do look at relationships that are special like, you know, you, with your kids or with your wife as like stained glass, you know. You need to... They're really beautiful, but you've got to protect them, and you've got to protect them, number one. And I think it's so easy in life to do the opposite as actually we take that one for granted and we produce our best, we produce our best for the, at the dinner party to hold court and say the jokes, and, you know, and it's the wrong way round. You know, it's the wrong way round. Save your best, I think is something I've learned and still try and I don't always get right by any means. But I know the goal is try and save my best for those I value the most, which is the closest relationships to you with your wife and, and with your kids. You know, make the, save the best for them, rather than kind of be tired and grumpy with them and then go out and then be on form. You know, it's trying to shift it the other way, and it's counterculture but it's always gonna make you happier, you know, if... And that's why I say if you want to know what someone's like, ask their wife, because don't, don't look at the press reports and don't read their own stories about themselves. You know, ask the person who really knows them when the, when the mask is off and when it's, you know, the cameras aren't rolling. They're the, they're the ones. And it's not to say, you know, anyone's perfect, but, but try and save your best for them. (laughs) And I think if you were to ask my wife what, what I would love her to say, I'd love her to say that I was loyal and kind and, and fought for them, you know. That's, that's what I just have always tried to do in my life, and prioritize them. And many times in, in my life, in the early days of TV especially, there was so much pressure to, you know, be away too much and go and do that and do the extra episode and do the extra thing and the, you know, Discovery Channel are asking for one more thing there, and you end up burning, burning the things that are most valuable because you're away too much, you're, you're focusing on this, and always creates damage. And I say sorry for those times I was away too much, and, and, and that's why I fought so hard to start to produce and make our own shows where we owned the format and we could decide, isn't it? I go, "No, it's our boys' half-term. I'm, I'm not gonna... Even though it's, you know, Tom Cruise or whoever, I'm, we're, I'm gonna be at the half-term for this. I want to put a shift onto the family." It's not easy. And it's been a great thing. It's been a key thing. And the other stuff is work. It'll always be there, you know. It'll be there and it's okay. Sometimes I fall into the trap of doing that. So, you know, you get an offer come in and it's, oh, 50 grand or 100 grand to do this thing here. It'll take one day but I'd scheduled to be in Indonesia that day with my partner. Yeah. And I'm looking, I'm going, "A hun- can I really turn down 100 grand for one day just like hanging out on the sofa with my partner?" It's a new challenge that I've been contending with. Yeah. What... I mean, you've been through this. Well, I think, I think the answer is that at the same time you're hustling and you've got to work and you've got to build it, and you're building it especially when you get married and have kids, you're building for their future, and, and all of us have this struggle. But I think listening to that inner voice, you know, a little bit. And there's this line, isn't there, that we walk where, you know, this side is family, this side is work. And the problem is if you only try and walk this line, everyone's always asking favors. You know, it's just one off, it's one event, it's one thing, well... And before you know it, you're spending too long on this side of the line and you're creating damage and loss. It's only damage, though, it's the losing, your, you're creating loss on this side. And I think what I've learned is just shift the line a little bit. You know, make the line here. Oh, so make it even more family-orientated to start with. Make it... Yeah. So, so when you drift over the line a few times, which we're gonna do, you're still in surplus, you're still in surplus. (laughs) And, and I think the wisdom and experience of life is knowing, "Do you know what? No, we should go and do that. I will go and do that event, because that's important." But knowing also the ones to really protect, it's often the little things, isn't it? Like a, you know, like the linesman story, you know. Mm-hmm. Like that school play or that anniversary or, or whatever. And listen, I'm speaking from a place of flawed failure through many, many times. But I've learned through those things, I'm gonna- Why do you say that? Because I got it wrong many times. I've done- You just weren't there? Yeah, just been there and made mistakes and got them wrong. But I've learned through those is that it's worth protecting the mo- the thing of most value in your life. And I think then with success, what happens, you'll reach a point where you don't need that extra 100 grand. You know, maybe when you're getting it, maybe you've got to hustle a bit. Maybe you've got to make some sacrifices. You do. To be successful, you have to sacrifice. Maybe... You know, and I was the same. I had to in those early days. You gotta, you gotta go that extra mile. I'm not saying you don't. You do. But maybe you reach a point where enough's enough. And then, then what you're really saying to your girlfriend, or it might be your wife or your kids at that stage, is that, "I value you more than the 100 grand." And when you're, like, successful, you know, it doesn't get any easier to say no. (laughs) It becomes more important- Mm-hmm. ... to say no.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:59 Amen. I felt that. Speaking of work, really compelled by, um, when I read that you're the Chief Scout. I was like, "That's the CEO of the Scouts, right?" (laughs) That's been... Is that not the CEO of the Scouts, effectively?

Bear Grylls 1:01:12 Well, I don't think I've ever... I've never had an aspiration to be like a CEO.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:15 (laughs)

Bear Grylls 1:01:15 CEO has always felt very important.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:17 Oh. (laughs)

Bear Grylls 1:01:17 Even though we are on the diary of a CEO-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:19 Yeah. (laughs)

Bear Grylls 1:01:19 ... I never feel like a CEO. Um, greatest honor in my life has been to, you know, be a, be a, a small cog in this incredible worldwide machine of 55 million young people-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:32 Whoa.

Bear Grylls 1:01:33 ... bound together by a common set of values of respect, and kindness, and humility, and, and adventure, and determination, and life skills. And, you know, it's an amazing privilege, I never take it for granted. It's a worldwide force for good. It truly is. The Scouting movement is unlike anything else out there. And it really has been the greatest honor of my life, and, and I love it. I can sum up my job as Chief Scout in three words, you know, encourage, encourage, encourage. You know, and, and shine the light on those... The, the, the young people, because the stuff that they got, get up to, the, the missions they're on, the, the efforts, the endeavors, the expedi... What they do is amazing. They're leading the thing on climate change, they're leading in many refugee camps and disaster areas, helping, serving. And when you get 57 million young people around the world saying, "I make a promise to be kind and helpful," you know, it's amazing. There's a power to that and, uh, it's brilliant.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:33 Do you think your, your career is complete?

Bear Grylls 1:02:38 Um, I hope not. I hope not. I'm still hustling. I'm still... I like the, I like the struggle, I like the fight, I like the ambition. We've built a brilliant team where we're pushing many en- endeavors, you know, away from just the TV shows. You know, I'm super proud of our Be Military Fit, our veterans fitness business. You know, we have our theme parks, our adventure parks at the NEC, and we're opening up new ones around the world. We have the Scout stuff, we... you know, we have education initiatives. I love it. For me, it's about using this God-given platform we've been given through the TV shows to try and do exactly the same as we do with the TV shows, which is to shine a light on you and say, "Look what you can do."

Steven Bartlett 1:03:13 Will it ever be complete?

Bear Grylls 1:03:15 And, and I hope not. I think, um, it's like my bucket list gets longer and longer as I live in life. You know, it's not... It's like the more things... "We could, we could do that, and then we could help do this," and, and I always want to live with our eyes wide open, you know, willing to be all in, willing to fail, willing to put myself out with great people, have that focused mission of trying to empower other people, helping other people to find their adventures in life, whether it's through books, or TV shows, or whatever, to, like, be able to go that extra mile, to be able to dig deep, to understand the storms that life come, but sometimes you gotta be dogged and determined to keep going. I wanna bring that adventurous spirit to people every day I live on this earth. That's the goal.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:56 To no end.

Bear Grylls 1:03:57 To no end. I think... I mean, maybe I'll finish the TV shows one day, you know. They'll... That, that will naturally end in due course. I can't... I mean, to be honest, I never thought I'd still be doing it now, you know, but with... We're doing more TV shows than ever before. We're doing a new network show on US TV in the next month, we're starting season eight of Running Wild. You know, we're still out there gunning it and going, and I love that, but the TV shows will end, but the adventures won't, you know. I, I... God willing, you know, I hope when I'm old guy, when I'm having loads of adventures with my kids, and eventually with grandk- kids, and sharing that adventure spirit, because as you know, you know, adventure is truly a state of mind. Whatever you're doing, whatever... You know, my wife always jokes that I'm gonna be in the old people's home going, "Come on, come on. We're gonna do it. We're gonna go for the..." You know? And I think that's a state of mind that is about pushing the boundaries and, you know, having that resilience, and, and that kind of wide-eyed gratitude for, for life and the connections and... Because the truth is, the world is amazing, and it's a huge privilege. You look at everything that's happening around the world, there's hardship, and struggling, and battle, and, and loss. And the fact that we get to, you know, ha- have our families and have something we love to do, and, and that we're safe, and we, we live in this kind of... a society that has a rule of law, and all these things that are so easy to take for granted, we must never take that for granted. We've gotta live with our eyes wide open, thank you, and, and keep that adventurous state of mind, firing bright that fire inside, shining bright.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:29 Never

Steven Bartlett 1:05:30 Give Up, the name of your recent book. Um, this book, I- I got the sense that it was slightly more special than previous books to you, and that it had taken five years to write this book, that you wrote it all yourself.

Bear Grylls 1:05:41 Mm. It is... It took a long time. You know, I was reluctant to write it. I wrote an autobiography called Mud, Sweat and Tears originally. But, uh, the truth is, you know, that... And that book did w- well. You know, it did 20 weeks at number one, and I always kinda felt that I'm, I'm not gonna beat that, do you know what I... I'm not gonna (laughs) do another book. We're done. But that book really ended as TV started, and so many of the questions that I get asked by, by my kids and by people in the street are always, like, the behind-the-scenes. "What was it like on this? What was it like taking that person," or, "What about the s- the struggles there," or whatever. And in a way, they're the stories that I wanted my boys to understand, you know. And I think my kids have kind of grown up and seen the good sides, seen the, the things that have worked, but aren't always aware of the many failures behind, behind those successes. And I wanted to just be able to share all of that, and share the things that actually made the difference, and I wanted to write it myself and, you know, be honest in it. And so it took a long time to write, but, um, I'm really proud of it, and I think it, it was always gonna be called Never Give Up. You know, it's at a time where I think the world's coming through an incredibly... Continues to be an incredibly tough time, and I think that spirit of relentless determination is needed more than ever with all people, and young people especially. So I'm proud of the stories and, and, uh, proud to call it Never Give Up.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:00 When I wrote my book, I, I didn't realize this until I'd wrote it, that it was actually much more a learning process than it was a...... preaching process.

Bear Grylls 1:07:09 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:09 You- you- because it is a journey writing a book, is there something that you learned that you didn't know before you started on that journey of writing Never Give Up that ha- w- was profound or a problem you solved from putting pen to paper that you-

Bear Grylls 1:07:22 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:22 ... that you hadn't solved before that comes to mind?

Bear Grylls 1:07:24 Well, I- I've definitely learned that for writing or speaking-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:27 Mm.

Bear Grylls 1:07:28 ... to be good, it has to be difficult. It has to be painful. You know, how often do we see the person who stands up and stands on stage and gives a talk and loves the sound of their own voice and it's just like, it's a bore. Th- they're a bore.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:42 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 1:07:43 You know? But the person who's... This is hard to articulate or talk about, but for what it's worth, this is where, you know, you're there. And it's the same with writing. I think it's gotta be vulnerable and it's gotta have that struggle to it. And that's why (laughs) it took me a while.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:01 Mm.

Bear Grylls 1:08:02 What do you find? What did you feel?

Steven Bartlett 1:08:04 D- I- well, yeah, for me, uh, there was a couple of questions that when I started a chapter, I hadn't actually answered them yet, and by the end of the chapter, I'd answered the question-

Bear Grylls 1:08:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:11 ... but it was because of that process. W- is it easy for you to be vulnerable? Are you someone... 'Cause we only think of someone that's been in the SAS and this, you know... again, they're talking about the public stereotype here, tough guy, resilience. Vulnerability seems to be the antithesis of that for a lot of people, the complete opposite.

Bear Grylls 1:08:26 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:26 How have you been... Because you know we talk about toxic masculinity a lot now. I sat here with Terry Crews, the- the actor, big tough guy-

Bear Grylls 1:08:32 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:32 ... and his new book, Tough, which is about toxic masculinity. What's your relationship with vulnerability and...

Bear Grylls 1:08:36 Well, f- first of all, Terry Crews, hero (laughs) and one of our Running Wild guests actually. I took him on one last year and he was, like with you, very honest about some of the stuff. Um, vulnerability was hard initially, but I think it's- it's where life is, you know? And like with... Like when you climb any big mountain, you know, where you rope to someone 24 hours a day, it brings you close, but it also is where the bonds are, you know? And when you- when you're vulnerable with someone, it creates a connection. You know, you and me probably feel more connected-

Steven Bartlett 1:09:08 Yeah.

Bear Grylls 1:09:08 ... by being the vulnerability than the look at this.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:11 Mm-hmm.

Bear Grylls 1:09:11 You know, vulnerability creates bonds and creates strength, but like all these things, there's a pain and a... takes a strength to do it. But I think, um, I'm not scared to show that, you know. I've got nothing to prove and I don't want people to think it's just all heroic, you know. I want um- people to know that there- that it's a str- there's- there's been many struggles through it all, but these things have quietly helped me. And I always think people have two phases of their life. One is like you don't want the world to see who you really are. You're out there, you project this kind of image, and then the second half is you no longer care. You just want to be honest, and when you're honest, there's a- there's an amazing bonds with the really people you wanna create bonds with. And some people have that realization at 25 and they