Cole Sprouse: My Narcissistic Mum Sacrificed My Childhood For Fame! | E229

Steven Bartlett 0:00 Have you ever had a conversation like this one publicly?

Cole Sprouse 0:02 No. I think it'll be fun. Cole Sprouse. From Disney Channel's The Suite Life of Zack & Cody. Riverdale. Big daddy friends. You're my hero. Thank you, sweet pea.

Steven Bartlett 0:12 Were you pushed into acting?

Cole Sprouse 0:14 I would hardly call it pushing, because I was eight months old. Single mom, two twin boys, put food on the table, so the choice never really existed. You guys are big stars now.

Narrator 0:24 We are.

Cole Sprouse 0:24 Yes, sir. What do you think about that? My mother was living vicariously through the success of her children, a person that grapples with mental illness, drug abuse, but primarily narcissism, a wicked narcissism. But that selfishness is something that the legal system also observed and said that she was unfit. The court had to step in.

Steven Bartlett 0:50 Your relationship with acting and the entertainment industry, it's been a journey.

Cole Sprouse 0:54 I loved being on stage. I didn't like the... that came with it. This industry encourages the worst qualities of you: selfishness, greed. You know, authenticity and vulnerability are not really encouraged traits.

Steven Bartlett 1:08 How do you feel about that?

Cole Sprouse 1:09 You're given these lessons in your life so that you can triumph over them and use the traits that you've acquired from those lessons over time to carve out who you are.

Steven Bartlett 1:20 I've got two pictures here, then. What are the words unsaid to this individual?

Cole Sprouse 1:26 I'd probably kick his ... .

Steven Bartlett 1:31 Before we get into this episode, just wanted to say thank you, first and foremost, for being part of this community. Um, the team here at The Diary of a CEO is now almost 30 people, and that's literally because you watch and you subscribe and you, um, leave comments and you like the videos that th- this show's been able to grow. And it's the greatest honor of my life to sit here with these incredible people and just selfishly ask some questions that I'm pondering over or worrying about in my life. But this is just the beginning for The Diary of a CEO. We've got big, big plans to scale this show, um, to every corner of the world and to, to, to diversify our guest selection, and that's enabled by you, by a simple thing that you guys do, which is to watch. So if there's one thing you could do to help this show and to help us continue to do what we do, it's just to hit the subscribe button. If you like this show, if you like what we do here, if you watch these episodes, please just hit that subscribe button. Means the world. Let's get on with it.

Steven Bartlett 2:28 Cole.

Cole Sprouse 2:29 Yes. Dave?

Steven Bartlett 2:30 Much of what I do here is I'm... Especially at the start of these conversations, is I'm trying to understand somebody. You know, I, I get to see the finish line. I get to see their achievements, their behaviors, their personality during my research, and I'm always try... You know, this is ultimately why this podcast came to be. On one ha- hand, in the name you hear The Diary of a CEO, and it was really me trying to show that there's this other side of these people, including myself. There's this other side that we don't often talk about.

Cole Sprouse 2:53 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 2:53 And on the other hand, just from a very personal perspective, I've come to learn, I'm so interested in like human beings, why they do what they do and what causes them to do what they do at the very core of it.

Cole Sprouse 3:03 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 3:04 Um, what do I need to know about you when... If we zoom back to your, to your earliest years-

Cole Sprouse 3:09 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 3:09 ... to understand the most influential things, moments, influences that caused you to be the complex, inspiring individual you are today?

Cole Sprouse 3:17 Hmm. I mean, I'm really glad I'm doing this podcast with you at this time in my life, because for the last year and a half, I've really been thinking about questions like this. What, what is it that, that still compels me, uh, into certain professional pursuits or artistic pursuits now? Um, I think when I was younger, it was, uh, it was definitely a financial pressure. There were kind of two kinds of kids, uh, working kids, really. There was the kids that were doing it to put food on the table for mommy and daddy, and then like the thespian children, you know, like, like" Mommy, I want to go into acting," and they would show up and it would be this huge gap between philosophies, um, between like, "Yeah, man, it's a job," and like, "No, this is a, this is a craft. This is"-

Steven Bartlett 4:05 Mm.

Cole Sprouse 4:05 ... "This is an art." Uh, and those kids kind of showed up around 14. And for me, I, I think I had trained a kind of workaholism since I was a child, uh, in order to, one, feel valued by my environment, uh, both immediate family and audience in very many cases, that has stuck with me, a work ethic that has stuck with me now to this day. Like I, I do not feel good when I am not working, and I think a lot of people can say that. Uh, and that's something I've been trying to unpack over the... Over the last year and a half is, what would happen if I just simply stepped away for good and enjoyed my life, which is really the purpose of why we're all here. Um, would I be content with sitting down and fishing and growing my own vegetables and, you know, living sustainably? Or would I get so disenfranchised and bored that I would have to take back to the arts in some way or another? And I think, I think the pressure of my upbringing really compelled me to continue doing what I am today. I cannot live without the arts. I mean, I, I, I cannot live without performance or expression in some kind, because it's truly all I know and have known since I was eight months old.

Steven Bartlett 5:16 Since you were eight months old?

Cole Sprouse 5:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:18 You hold the record for being the guest on this show that started working the earliest.

Cole Sprouse 5:24 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 5:24 Tell me, tell me-

Cole Sprouse 5:25 Well-

Steven Bartlett 5:26 Uh.

Cole Sprouse 5:26 ... look, to be fair, I don't know if we can call it work. I don't, I don't believe I queued into consciousness until about like 10 years ago. Um, when you're a baby, you have that kind of lantern consciousness where only, you know, whatever exists is only in your immediate purview. And then as you age, you know, when you start to become less present, you're like, "Wow, I'm an adult and I feel like shit all the time." Um, so I, I don't know about if I, I perceived it as work, but it certainly infused within me a kind of work ethic as I have aged. Um, but yeah.

Steven Bartlett 5:58 It, it established a relationship with work.

Cole Sprouse 6:00 Mm-hmm. It did. I mean, it started for me financially. Uh, single mom, two twin boys, put food on the table. She is still able to be a mother while we can still pursue a sort of, uh, improvement of our lifestyle. And in very many ways she was living vicariously through the success of her children. But I think, uh, it's certainly developed a relationship to, uh, professionalism much earlier than almost anyone else I know.

Steven Bartlett 6:31 Were you p- were you ... You used the word pushed earlier.

Cole Sprouse 6:35 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:35 Were you pushed into acting, in your view?

Cole Sprouse 6:38 Well, I didn't ... You know, h- I would hardly call it pushing because I was eight months old. I don't even think I w- I knew, you know. I was on screen. I don't remember much of, like, the early, early, the diaper commercials and things like that. So the choice never really existed. I was there. That's it. There w-

Steven Bartlett 6:59 How do you, how do you feel about that?

Cole Sprouse 7:01 I think gratefulness and ungratefulness can exist simultaneously. And I, I am tremendously grateful of the financial stability I have acquired now as a 30-year-old and being able to say, "Yeah. I'm okay now." Um, I think in many ways I traded sort of the lantern consciousness of youth and sort of the carefree presented-ness of youth for financial stability that I would come to appreciate as an older man. But, um, I don't regret too much. I don't. I, I think if I were to sit here and talk about regretting my, my childhood within the industry, I think that would be silly. It toughened the hell out of both my brother and I and many kids that go through that same thing. Um, but I'm grateful, I'm grateful for the financial stability of it. Yeah. And I also am grateful to have done it in a time where you could get your Gladwell 10,000 hours in anonymously. You know, if you did a crappy direct-to-DVD movie, Just for Kicks, I'm looking at you for anyone who knows this, uh, if you did your crappy soccer movie, it would go to the back of Blockbuster and no one would see it. Now, with social media, I mean, there's no way that you can, that you can cut your teeth in silence anymore. Everyone sees your portfolio globally.

Steven Bartlett 8:31 Mm.

Cole Sprouse 8:32 And you're expected to put it on display. I find it, you know ... I, I, I feel quite afraid for young actors now who have to hone their craft over time, but do it to a global audience. That sucks.

Steven Bartlett 8:46 You've got a, you've got a twin brother.

Cole Sprouse 8:47 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 8:47 Um, 15 minutes older than you.

Cole Sprouse 8:49 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 8:49 As he always likes to-

Cole Sprouse 8:50 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 8:50 ... help people-

Cole Sprouse 8:51 Shove it in my face.

Steven Bartlett 8:51 (laughs) Your parents,

Steven Bartlett 8:53 you mentioned single mother.

Cole Sprouse 8:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 8:54 I am ... As I read through your story, I saw a ton of similarities between the way you described your relationship with your, with your mother.

Cole Sprouse 9:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 9:02 And the way that I often describe the relationship still to this day with my mother.

Cole Sprouse 9:07 Hm.

Steven Bartlett 9:07 Can you tell me about both your, your mother and your father and the journey you kind of went on? And I know at five years old, roughly, they divorced.

Cole Sprouse 9:12 Sure. I, I, I don't remember the exact timeline of divorce. Um, but I remember only having one memory of them being together, uh, when I was very, very young. And then from that point on, my father was in Switzerland and my mother was in LA. He would eventually move out to LA in order to try and repair the family. Uh, but my mother was, um, still is, uh, the kind of tortured artist type. She struggled with, uh, in very many ways, her place in the world. She, she ... I think she found a tremendous amount of self-identity through motherhood and tried to turn it into a profitable business at the same time, which for identical twin boys going into acting is sort of economic loophole through labor laws that can be incredibly profitable. Um, so that's what she did. And as I've thought about it, it seemed like to me it made a lot of financial sense to her to put us into acting. It made ... I think it satisfied some sort of narcissism that she probably had in order to be recognized as this sort of artistic success. Uh, she was a wonderful painter. Um, so she always wanted sort of artistic legitimacy and validation. But as time went on, uh, I think the entertainment industry just kind of broke her. You know, this, this, this industry in very many ways, it encourages the worst qualities of you as a person. Um, narcissism, selfishness, greed, a lot of these things that we have come to known as practically cardinal sins. Um, it's one of those things that, uh, encouraged a kind of selfishness that was, uh, directly opposed to the very fundamental idea of motherhood. And as I grew older, in my case, the court had to step in and rend my brother and I towards our father, who is an incredible guy. Um, but that selfishness is something that the legal system also observed, and, uh, said that she was unfit. And I think as I've aged and I've looked back on a lot of, um, the circumstances of that entire environment, I see a person that grapples with mental illness, drug abuse, um, but primarily narcissism. A wicked narcissism. The inability to, to perceive anything outside your own perspective would probably be the biggest sickness I see. And, uh ...That just doesn't work with being a mother. That just doesn't work with being in a family, in general. You know, wh- when, when it rains, it rains on everyone's roofs. That's how it goes. It takes a village, man. And selfishness that is encouraged very much, like I said, from the industry, just doesn't really work. Doesn't really work for being a mother.

Steven Bartlett 12:34 It's easy to look at this, that situation objectively and go, "Okay, just don't speak to them," but this is your mother.

Cole Sprouse 12:42 Of course. Yeah, that's something I've dealt with a lot too.

Steven Bartlett 12:45 That's my question, which is like, how do you... How have you tried to separate the two? There's so many people listening to this right now who have a member of their family that i- is a toxic influence in whatever way-

Cole Sprouse 12:55 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 12:55 ... and they struggle with this idea that-

Cole Sprouse 12:58 Yep, it's a big one.

Steven Bartlett 12:58 Yeah, right? Like, because they're blood, I have to persist with the relationship. I have to tolerate it. Whereas, if this was someone who was... I just met on the street or in school, I would fucking... I would-

Cole Sprouse 13:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:09 ... I would chop off-

Cole Sprouse 13:09 Later.

Steven Bartlett 13:09 ... the relationship straightaway, right?

Cole Sprouse 13:12 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:12 How have you dealt with, with the duality of both it being blood but also it being unacceptable behavior?

Cole Sprouse 13:16 Yeah, it's a great question. Um, (clears throat) I don't think you ever fully reconcile it. I think it's the difference between this, like, kind of immortal abstract connection to someone, this thing that we call love, this, this energy, not to sound too California, you know? But this, this, this sort of immortal connection between a mother and a child, or a father and a son, or, or whatever it is, um, and how do you distinguish that, uh, from anyone else who you would immediately cut off? And I think for me, I- I've recently, you know, I've recently arrived at the philosophy that almost everything is, is some sort of lesson that we must take. And I think lessons like this, when it comes to parents, when it comes to people who are supposed to be these sort of, um, immortal, almost godlike figures in, in your life, especially during your youth, like, that is the greatest lesson for your humanity that you can acquire. You know? The distinction between love and care, and abandonment, and pain as you grow. Uh, I really... I wouldn't call myself a religious man, but I, I, I do believe that everyone is put here in your life to have these interactions with you for some kind of reason. And I know that sounds like fatedness, which can be, you know, we'll leave that for another podcast. But, um, I think it's, uh, I think it's a lesson that you have to learn, and it's all in a way reflecting back and carving you into the person that you're supposed to be. I also think it tests your patience and your love. And the people that really persist and continuously try and find the love after all the pain, consistently re-arrive to the care and the connection and the love even though you've been, you know, deeply wounded by the ones who are supposed to be at your round table, those are the strongest individuals, in my opinion, you know. If you can, if you can consistently on the other, come to the other side of that conversation and go, "I will still choose to care. I will still choose to love," um, that speaks a lot about you.

Steven Bartlett 15:41 At some point, you have to put your love for yourself-

Cole Sprouse 15:44 Of course.

Steven Bartlett 15:45 ... first. It's the old oxygen mask analogy. Your journey with, with your mother-

Cole Sprouse 15:49 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 15:50 ... you're very young, you don't really know what's going on.

Cole Sprouse 15:51 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 15:52 You're acting, you're doing these things. At some point in your adolescence or beyond, you figure out that this is not normal behavior.

Cole Sprouse 15:58 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 15:58 This is not acceptable behavior for a mother and her son.

Cole Sprouse 16:02 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 16:03 When was that?

Cole Sprouse 16:05 Oh, I mean, (sighs) I guess when Social Services came knocking is usually when it happens. Um, I don't know. I, I would go over to my father's house 'cause the court gave primary custody to my mother. And this is one... I, I don't know too much about the UK legal system in this regard, but the United States legal system is incredibly biased towards, uh, towards the mother in cases of divorce and custody. And in this case, it sh- certainly should've been my father taking custody. Um, and this is obviously a case-by-case basis. But, um, I would go into, you know, we'd, we'd spend some time with my father, like, once a week, and we wouldn't be able to eat candy and do whatever the fuck we wanted. He would, you know, make us go and exercise and play outside, and there was a regimen. There was a healthy regimen. It wasn't, you know, we weren't allow- we, we weren't allowed to do whatever the fuck we wanted. And I think at that point, I was going, eh, when you're a child you go, "Man, this is no fun!"

Steven Bartlett 17:07 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 17:08 But as you, as you sort of pan out for a moment and you go, "Wow, I'm actually feeling a lot better here. I'm present here. I'm, I'm, I'm happy here, even though I don't get to eat ice cream all the time," you know?

Steven Bartlett 17:19 But, so, so-

Cole Sprouse 17:19 Am I making sense with this? Please.

Steven Bartlett 17:21 N- Um, Social Services don't get called for eating ice cream.

Cole Sprouse 17:23 No, no. They don't. And I won't go too much into that 'cause I don't wanna make this whole podcast about-

Steven Bartlett 17:28 Yeah.

Cole Sprouse 17:28 ... another young man in LA with mommy issues.

Steven Bartlett 17:30 Yeah, yeah.

Cole Sprouse 17:30 Uh, but I do think that, that the circumstances of my life are, are, uh, at least my childhood, are much like the sort of cliché narrative that you hear a lot about child stars. But, um, I don't talk about it too much because I don't ever want to be perceived as a victim of it. I am not and have never been and never will be a victim of any circumstance that I am in. I don't wear victimhood on my shoulder. I don't like t- to act like I am my wounds and t- to repeatedly be reminded of my wounds. Um, what happened in my youth happened, and carved me, and forged me into the person I am today.

Steven Bartlett 18:11 For better and for worse, right?

Cole Sprouse 18:13 For better. For purely better, even through pain.We trade trauma for wisdom.

Steven Bartlett 18:20 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 18:20 That's what we do as humans. When we go through heavy experiences, it deepens our eyes.

Steven Bartlett 18:26 Mm-hmm.

Cole Sprouse 18:27 And you know, I, uh, I, I think for me, the reason I haven't really talked about it too much in the past is because one, the media has a way of sensationalizing scars and victimhood like this is a person's character. And in very many ways it is. But they don't talk about the strength that is the byproduct of pain. They talk about the pain, which is useless. Like, it- it- all it does is perpetuate the past, which I think is, is or a pain that existed in the past rather than going, "My God, look how well he's done for himself, even though he's had such a tough, tough upbringing."

Steven Bartlett 19:06 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 19:06 You know, I think Oprah's another wonderful example of this, where they- it- her story, her origin tale, so to speak, is, is very well known. Um, and look at what a beautiful example of success that she's become over time. You know, that to me is the most beautiful way that I think media can sensationalize a story of pain. Um, but I find that it's oftentimes not, and I also feel like we're in a, a climate right now that really encourages people to, uh, talk about the victimization of pain more than they do about the triumph over it.

Steven Bartlett 19:43 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 19:44 The strength that comes as a byproduct of that pain. And so that's mainly why I don't talk about it too much, because I don't wanna be that guy, you know? I don't wanna be that guy that's like, "Owie," all the time.

Steven Bartlett 19:55 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 19:56 No, man. You- you're given these lessons in your life so that you can triumph over them and use, use the traits that you've acquired from those lessons over time to, to carve out who you are.

Steven Bartlett 20:10 One of the things I've mulled over from speaking to people on this podcast is about this idea that, that, that trauma you describe, if it ever goes away, you know-

Cole Sprouse 20:19 Should it? Ask yourself that.

Steven Bartlett 20:21 That's a good question. It probably, I have to say, it probably shouldn't, because as you assert earlier on, it's a lesson that you learned so that you could deal with your environmental circumstance. And just like the lesson I learned of not putting my hand into fire, I'm not gonna unlearn that at 30.

Cole Sprouse 20:36 No.

Steven Bartlett 20:37 There's no therapy that could (laughs) -

Cole Sprouse 20:39 No.

Steven Bartlett 20:39 ... that could help me learn that.

Cole Sprouse 20:40 Yeah, yeah, of course. And un- unfortunately, I, uh, this- I'm speaking for myself here. I don't know about you, but I'm a dumbass that needs to learn by his own mistakes.

Steven Bartlett 20:47 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 20:47 I mean, I can watch my father go, "Hey man, you, you need to drink water at this watering hole." But I, you know, you can't drag me there and make me drink. I have to make mistakes in order to learn from my mistakes, and I (laughs) a lot of my friends are very similar. But, um, I don't think, I don't think those lessons should ever go away.

Steven Bartlett 21:06 Like I said about my, my validation thing

Steven Bartlett 21:09 sticking, sticking around with me-

Cole Sprouse 21:10 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 21:11 ... what stuck around with you?

Cole Sprouse 21:13 Um, the workaholism has definitely stuck with me. Uh, I need validation a lot. Uh, I think that's a pretty common, uh, thing for most artists just to have. Um, but I am the byproduct of, the byproduct of, um, moments of incredible narcissism and moments of severe self-loathing. And right in the middle is when I do my best work (laughs) . Um, but a lot of that operation and the fluctuation between those two things, uh, is determined by people going, "Goddamn, you're good."

Steven Bartlett 21:56 What if they say- what if they invalidate?

Cole Sprouse 21:58 What if they say, "Goddamn, you suck"? I spiral, of course, but I don't let it hang on me. I try not to let it hang on me.

Steven Bartlett 22:05 What does the spiral look like?

Cole Sprouse 22:07 Um, "Man, maybe I should just run away and, and not do this and, you know, get some chickens and raise, you know, get some eggs and, um, live off the grid," and, and whatever it is. Um, it also manifests as the inability to sort of say your desires out loud for fear of, of looking like a fool. Um, I think LA does that too, because I think vulnerability is just something that we don't really encourage here in Los Angeles.

Steven Bartlett 22:36 Why is that?

Cole Sprouse 22:37 Um, because it's not cool, but it's not cool, uh, to Angelinos because someone that is cool hasn't said it like that before.

Steven Bartlett 22:49 Ah.

Cole Sprouse 22:49 Do you know what I'm saying? It's a lot of imposter syndrome in Los Angeles. And so, you know, authenticity and vulnerability are not really encouraged traits. Um-

Steven Bartlett 22:59 Before you arrived, I was saying to my team-

Cole Sprouse 23:01 Go ahead.

Steven Bartlett 23:02 I was like, I watch all these interviews with people like yourself from LA that's, uh, stars, ac- actors. And I go, no one's ever asked them an interesting question, it seems.

Cole Sprouse 23:11 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:11 And genuinely, that's how-

Cole Sprouse 23:12 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:12 ... before you walked in, this is what I was saying. I was like, 'cause, 'cause you know, Lucy Hale was the same.

Cole Sprouse 23:15 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 23:15 She goes, "Oh, this is the first time I've had a deep conversation." And I'm like, "Why?" And then I mimicked what interviewers are like here. I was like, "Hey," uh-

Cole Sprouse 23:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:21 ... "where'd you get your shoes?" (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 23:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:22 And then you're like, my, you know-

Cole Sprouse 23:23 "So can you speak to your twin in your mind?"

Steven Bartlett 23:26 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 23:28 Yeah, of course.

Steven Bartlett 23:28 But like who, who the fuck wants to talk about that? Do people actually, you know?

Cole Sprouse 23:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, because it's safe.

Steven Bartlett 23:33 Yeah, right.

Cole Sprouse 23:34 Because it's a safe thing, you know? This is why I love the podcast space is because the podcast space creates-

Steven Bartlett 23:40 Nuance.

Cole Sprouse 23:41 Yeah, nuance and, and context, a beau- it gives you the whole context right there, which is something that a lot of people, you know, in interview settings or otherwise are completely devoid of. When you're selling a publication, when you're selling an interview with someone on paper, you don't really get the context. Oh, well, the context was it was pouring rain outside for the last blah, blah, blah, and you arrived to the studio, and you got to sit down and have a tete-a-tete, and we talked about having similar birthdays, and we talked about Botswana beforehand and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, you get the context, you get the connection, which I think is gorgeous.

Steven Bartlett 24:13 Yeah, same.

Cole Sprouse 24:14 And I think it also creates a really beautiful way to discover the honest humanity and opinion of people.... because we're, you know, entertainment media, it's sensational. We're only gonna sell the worst person in the world and the best person in the world. We're not gonna sell the humans in between, you know? And, and most of us fit within this, uh, kind of gray morality that doesn't really, you know ... We're not, not all of us are these fucking outliers that are like, these really firm, radical fucking people that are, that are saying these radicalized things in order to preach to the, to the sensationalism of the internet. Most of us have these kinda moderate places that we sit. Um, so I think the podcast space is fucking awesome for that, man. You really get to, to sit and connect to people and have a conversation. And for people that are interested, they fucking listen. It's great.

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Steven Bartlett 25:59 events. Your journey with your relationship with acting-

Cole Sprouse 26:03 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 26:03 ... and the entertainment industry-

Cole Sprouse 26:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:05 ... it's been a journey.

Cole Sprouse 26:06 Oh, for sure, man.

Steven Bartlett 26:08 Can you give me kind of like, a timeline of that journey and how you've, um, felt through the process-

Cole Sprouse 26:12 Yeah. (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 26:12 ... with your relationship with acting?

Cole Sprouse 26:14 Absolutely. Um, started at eight months old.

Steven Bartlett 26:19 (sighs) When you say that, it still baffles my mind. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 26:21 Uh, diaper commercials, things like that. Did commercials. Um, worked on a sitcom for a bit. Uh, still wasn't really fully conscious. Uh, we were still doing the baby acting thing. Uh, did a sitcom called Grace Under Fire, a couple other little TV spots here and there, identical twins switching places, blah, blah, blah. Then we booked Big Daddy with Adam Sandler when we were around six, um, and that was like, the big thing at the time.

Steven Bartlett 26:47 This point about the use of twins in acting-

Cole Sprouse 26:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:49 ... some people might not understand the context, they can just-

Cole Sprouse 26:50 Oh, okay. You'd like me to explain? Um-

Steven Bartlett 26:52 Yeah, just explain for those-

Cole Sprouse 26:53 Children can only work a certain amount of hours, which is a very strange thing to say out loud. Um, "In the button factory, in the coal mines, we can only work for two hours a day." Uh, no, but we can only work for a certain amount of hours, um, and so if you have two twins that look identical to each other that people can't perceive as anything other than the same character, you double the amount of hours you can work. Uh, which is an incredible economic loophole for a lot of young actors, 'cause-

Steven Bartlett 27:23 Like hitting the jackpot, as a mother.

Cole Sprouse 27:24 Yeah, yeah. Of course. Of course. It was great. Work the system, baby. But the problem is (laughs) when you start at least from that philosophy and you go into an art, you know, um, we've commodified almost all of the arts that exist. But when you enter into a form of expression in a professionalized or, or work dynamic, it's hard to see that as a pursuit of passion.

Steven Bartlett 27:54 Mm-hmm.

Cole Sprouse 27:54 So, my journey through acting over time has been one of trying to balance art and commerce in a way, one for the money, two for the show sort of thing, where I need to be reminded consistently to myself that I love this thing. Do you know what I'm saying? Making my money, becoming financially stable, getting financially stable, taking jobs that are, uh, that aren't paying as much, but doing cool projects, and making yourself feel more in love with the discipline. And I think, you know, this is, this is a particular approach that has to come from a certain socioeconomic background. If you are, you know, this nepo baby conversation's been huge out here in LA. I don't know how, how big it's been out in the UK, but, um, if you come from a financially stable background, and you can see it with any actor that has a really stellar resume, where you're like, "God, you've picked great movie after great movie after great movie. You've been a part of all these really cool projects," well, they probably had a lot of financial stability because those projects pay you fucking nothing.

Steven Bartlett 29:01 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 29:02 Right? So, if you have the sort of patron that is allowing your freedom of expression to take these artistic projects and reinvigorate this passion for you, even in the face of commodification of an expression, then you can, uh, you can have a really stellar career. But if you also have to make money alongside it, you're probably not gonna take the super cool jobs. You gotta, you know, you gotta sell drinkable yogurt, uh, for a little bit in order to go to college. You know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 29:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cole Sprouse 29:31 Yeah. Th- this is the balance between art and commerce that a lot of people don't understand. In almost every other art, at least in photography, this is a great example, no one looks at someone doing a commercial gig and then going back to the editorial world and going, "Why would they do that commercial gig?"

Steven Bartlett 29:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 29:46 "That's so strange." But in acting, they do. There's a huge division between those two people, massive.

Steven Bartlett 29:53 Big Daddy.

Cole Sprouse 29:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:54 That's where we left off, wasn't it?

Cole Sprouse 29:55 Yes, Big Daddy. So, got Big Daddy at six. Um, Adam was just incredible. We shot that movie for far longer than it needed to be shot, in New York City. Um, it was my first time going to New York. Uh, and then that was a whirlwind.

Steven Bartlett 30:12 Were you cognizant, at this point, of your feelings with acting th- your relationship with the industry?

Cole Sprouse 30:17 No, it was super present.

Steven Bartlett 30:18 Okay.

Cole Sprouse 30:19 Which is good, which is what I think we're all trying to get back to, is this sort of lantern consciousness of, of youth, in terms of acting.

Steven Bartlett 30:26 Mm-hmm.

Cole Sprouse 30:26 This, this state of play.

Steven Bartlett 30:28 Mm-hmm.

Cole Sprouse 30:28 'Cause no one should go into acting and be like, "I'm going to act."

Steven Bartlett 30:32 Mm-hmm.

Cole Sprouse 30:32 You know, that's-... I, I don't think that's-

Steven Bartlett 30:34 Painful.

Cole Sprouse 30:34 Yeah, I don't think that's right. Um, but I was still very present at the time. Um, and then Big Daddy came out and alongside it came this whirlwind of opinion and conversation and fame and, and all this sort of stuff. Which would then (sighs) which was very polarizing, but would lead me into... I worked on, um, a couple other direct-to-DVD movies at the time for some cash money. And then, uh, did Friends. I was a recurring role on Friends, and then, uh, Dylan and I would end up booking, uh, The Suite Life on Disney, which, of course, was another huge lifesaver. Um-

Steven Bartlett 31:18 And your relationship with acting at this point is what? You're, you're en-

Cole Sprouse 31:21 Very commercial.

Steven Bartlett 31:22 Okay. Are you enjoying it?

Cole Sprouse 31:23 Um, not really, because now it had become a thing that was taking me away from playing in the cul-de-sac with the friends. You know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 31:31 Mm-hmm.

Cole Sprouse 31:32 So, I loved school. Like, I loved going to school. I loved playing with my friends and, and all that sort of thing, so at the time, I couldn't see it as anything other than that. But that's, you know, that's what a child does. Um, and then we did The Suite Life, and then I actually really did not mind not going to school. So we were homeschooled from The Suite Life onwards and then every f- every conversation... 'Cause I kept a lot of my super close friends.

Steven Bartlett 31:56 You're 12 and 15 at this point?

Cole Sprouse 31:58 Uh, this would... Yeah, so we did that from 12 to 18.

Steven Bartlett 32:03 12 to 18. Oh, and The Suite- Suite Life on Deck.

Cole Sprouse 32:05 With th- Yes, would be The Suite Life on Deck, the spinoff. Um, and when we got to high school age, all of my friends would tell me these stories from high school, uh, American public high school, that was just like, "Goddamn, you lived through that shit? I don't wanna be part of that at all!"

Steven Bartlett 32:19 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 32:19 "This sounds horrible." And so then I was quite thankful to not be doing that. Um, and then I went to college.

Steven Bartlett 32:25 You picked up photography around this time.

Cole Sprouse 32:27 I did, around 18. I actually went to London, and the first time I went to London, I said, "I should get myself a camera and document my brother and I's little journey through London."

Steven Bartlett 32:36 I found a really curious quote that you said about the reason why you chose photography.

Cole Sprouse 32:40 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 32:41 Um, relating to... It allowed you to escape your depression.

Cole Sprouse 32:45 Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of people, um, have sort of (sighs) discussed that one quote. Um, I, I think I was certainly... I had gone through a huge breakup after college, right at the end of college, um, and re... I picked my camera up again.

Steven Bartlett 33:09 Okay.

Cole Sprouse 33:09 Um, and you put a lot of my emotional state into just shooting. Hobbyism, which is a real wonderful, uh, thing to do when you are feeling sad, is pick up a hobby, dive into hobbyism. Um, and so I pushed myself into a lot of that, uh, and in very many ways, it allowed time to pass more quickly and for me to heal more effectively. Yeah. But I also did it because I wanted to express my vision in very many ways. When you're an actor, you are the byproduct of the writing, the direction, and the editing. And a lot of people assume you have much more creative agency over a project than you do, but I don't find that to be the case when you're a commercial employee actor, you know? Uh, when, when you are working on commercial projects, in very many way, there's con- they are controlling the image of you that people are seeing. Um, and they control the takes and you're as bound to the project, uh, as the writing is good or bad, and the directors are changing week to week, so it's a difficult relationship to expression and self-identity, and I, I, I think I, at the time, I was really looking for a way to tell people, "Hey, this is what I can do if I'm given creative freedom." Um, and I think I've achieved that.

Steven Bartlett 34:27 No, your work is amazing. I was just saying to you, I wasn't just blowing smoke up your ass. I, I went on your website and I thought, "Oh, we're moving into a new house, me and my girlfriend. I thought this would be brilliant after we come out the elevator."

Cole Sprouse 34:35 Oh, I'll, I'll just send you some-

Steven Bartlett 34:36 Thank you so much. That's me-

Cole Sprouse 34:36 ... some of the newer work. I, I-

Steven Bartlett 34:37 ... pushing. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 34:38 Yeah, I, I hate, I hate anything I, I do after two weeks.

Steven Bartlett 34:42 Oh, no, no, no.

Cole Sprouse 34:42 So I'll send you some of the newer stuff.

Steven Bartlett 34:44 Textbook cr- creative.

Cole Sprouse 34:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:46 What, when's the moment in your life where you both loved, and then the moment where you hated acting the most?

Cole Sprouse 34:52 I came back to it.

Steven Bartlett 34:53 Yeah.

Cole Sprouse 34:53 You know, I-

Steven Bartlett 34:54 Post-college.

Cole Sprouse 34:55 Yeah. I was at a real fork in the road and I, um, made a promise to someone that I would return to acting, but I never anticipated I would. And I was reminded that I love performance, which is... I love to perform in front of people, um, and I love the present-ed-ness of a performance, like when you wake up at the end of the take and you go, "Man, I don't... I barely remember what I was even doing right there. That was... I, I just felt that." Um, I love that. I love performing for the crew. I love... (sighs) I loved being on stage. I didn't like the shit that came with it. Because when I was young, you know, acting was like the grilled chicken of the dish. It was like, it was the biggest part of the course, and the side salad was like the red carpet stuff and, and-

Steven Bartlett 35:41 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 35:41 ... whatever the fuck it is. And now (laughs) social media has made it so that the, the whole thing's just a grilled chicken salad now. I mean, like, like the salad is almost a bigger part of your success than the ac- the act of performance. And I think in very many ways, you know, your celebrity profile has been... Become far too intermingled into your work as a professional. And all of us within the industry are recoiling and trying to figure out a way to, to, you know, figure out how to deal with that.

Steven Bartlett 36:11 I, I was... I have to be honest, I had a good laugh at your other Instagram account.

Cole Sprouse 36:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:17 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 36:17 camberdoolz? Yeah, that's polarized a lot of people.

Steven Bartlett 36:19 But, but I... At the same time I thought, "I underst-" I read about your sort of social anxiety-

Cole Sprouse 36:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:25 ... that came with... came along with the fame.

Cole Sprouse 36:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:27 And then I heard you'd created this Instagram account of taking people... Taking pictures of people taking pictures of you-

Cole Sprouse 36:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:32 ... covertly without asking permission.

Cole Sprouse 36:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:34 And then I thought to myself-This is a great idea, but it's going to encourage it.

Cole Sprouse 36:39 Yeah, of course, it did.

Steven Bartlett 36:40 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 36:40 Yeah, no, it, it totally did, which I, I don't mind as much that it encourages people, um, because all it's done is just further reinforce why I've done it.

Steven Bartlett 36:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cole Sprouse 36:52 Which is like, "Hey, people are not going to care about anything other than the, uh, than bragging about a place they've been or a person they've seen." You know-

Steven Bartlett 37:03 How do you feel about that?

Cole Sprouse 37:04 Uh, (sighs) I don't mind it because all of us kinda just do it. We're taught to do that sort of thing. Um, but I don't know if I'd necessarily make those people my friends.

Steven Bartlett 37:15 How does it, how does it feel to be on the receiving end of it every day?

Cole Sprouse 37:20 I understand it.

Steven Bartlett 37:21 Did you always?

Cole Sprouse 37:22 Um, yeah. Actually, I did. I-

Steven Bartlett 37:26 Did you ever struggle with it?

Cole Sprouse 37:27 Um, of course I struggled with it, for sure.

Steven Bartlett 37:30 I'm asking this for myself now.

Cole Sprouse 37:31 Yeah, yeah. Well-

Steven Bartlett 37:32 Because-

Cole Sprouse 37:32 Well, I think, look man, we're always searching for, um, a much deeper emotional connection to another human being. You know? It would, I would much rather have someone be, like, like, this podcast is a great example. Tell me about what it was like growing up in your position. And if anyone ever asked me that, I would be an open book. Y- you truly could come up to me and ask me any question on the street, and I would probably hold a tete-a-tete with you. Um, but people wanna show other people-

Steven Bartlett 38:04 But don't. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 38:04 Yeah, but, but don't. Um...

Steven Bartlett 38:06 Don't do that. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 38:08 Uh, but I think people wanna, wanna show what they're up to right now, and that's totally fine and natural. Um, well, I don't know if it's natural, but, uh, we're, you know, we're conditioned to do that. But I think, you know, whether it's, you know, you're doing it ironically or authentically or you're truly excited or you admire someone or you wanna just prove to other people, I think most people have to understand that there is probably a greater connection to be made that exists. There's a choice that you make when, when you're asking for a very surface-level, shallow interaction with someone, um, and that the alternative did exist, where you could probably deepen your relationship to, to, um, an individual that you've wanted to talk to. Uh, so I don't really mind when people do it. It just means that person's not gonna be a cool connection to me personally. Like, I- I'm not gonna remember that connection in my life when I'm telling stories and things. Whereas, you know, I did a movie called Five Feet Apart, which, um, which dealt a lot with cystic fibrosis, and I've had a lot of, um, people who live with cystic fibrosis come up to me and talk to me about cystic fibrosis and, and talk to me about that film. And those are connections, in my opinion, that have lasted with me. I'll, I remember almost every single conversation I've had with something like that because it's not a, uh, "Yo, let's take a pic." It is, "Hey, man, um, I wanna let you know that I go through this, something that you were trying to portray in this, and, and, you know, this, it affected me like this, and, and..." It, it's, it's a discussion that enriches both people. Um, and even if you don't like the individual, you know, let's say you see someone that you really don't like the work of or you don't like the persona of, going up and asking them a question is probably gonna yield so much more to you than the alternative. But we wanna show everything on Instagram and, and social media and, and TikTok and whatever it is because we want... You know, we're all creatures of validation. We want to see the likes and, and the whatever the fuck it is, and I'm, I've done it too. I'm not saying I haven't done it. You know, I, I've, I've taken a picture or tried to take a picture of John C Reilly, who I really admire. You know, I, there, there's a lot of people that I, I deeply admire. But if I were given the choice between asking them a, a compelling question and taking a photo, I would probably choose the compelling question, for sure.

Steven Bartlett 40:38 That social anxiety, few will really know what that's like. People without fame will, will often experience social anxiety for their own reasons as well.

Cole Sprouse 40:44 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 40:45 But when you say social anxiety, can you give me a, a picture of what that feels like

Steven Bartlett 40:50 in reality?

Cole Sprouse 40:50 Oh, sure. I'll paint an image of it.

Steven Bartlett 40:53 You're very good at painting images with your words, by the way.

Cole Sprouse 40:55 Oh, thank you. Um-

Steven Bartlett 40:57 It's very... You're enjoyable to listen to.

Cole Sprouse 40:58 You know what?

Steven Bartlett 40:59 More smoke

Cole Sprouse 40:59 ... my social anxiety feels a lot like sitting in a sauna when it's just a bit too hot, like the sauna right before you have to get out. You know what I mean? It's, it's like this warm sort of blanketing feeling, but it's not warm. It's fucking hot. It's, but it's a blanket over me, for sure, and it, it, it's this kind of y- For me, anxiety's really present. Even though I'm thinking about future possibility or past, um, past actions that I have made, it is a consistent, um, "I'm living in this, I'm living in this, I'm living in this, I'm living in this, I'm living in this," and so in that way, it's almost blanketed over me. Um, and what I'll do for that anxiety is, is I will activate my five senses. What do I see? What do I smell? What can I hear? Can I taste anything? What do I feel on my skin? And it immediately grounds me in the present. These things are grounding mechanisms that I really enjoy when I start to feel social anxiety.

Steven Bartlett 42:02 Have you learned that somewhere?

Cole Sprouse 42:05 Yeah, I think I did.

Steven Bartlett 42:06 (sighs) Where'd you, where did you learn that?

Cole Sprouse 42:07 Um, well, I did, uh, I went to therapy. I've had, I've gone to therapy off and on my whole life. Um, but he was a wonderful man up in Vancouver that taught me those sort of grounding techniques. And he's right, but I mean, it does, you know, it can be a therapist. It can be a father figure. It can be anyone that teaches you. Essentially, the root of it is be present, ground yourself in the present.

Steven Bartlett 42:29 It's such a great tool.

Cole Sprouse 42:30 Yeah, it's, it's, it's, you know, all the Eastern philosophers and the Buddhists were trying to tell you to do this shit the whole time. Meditate. Ground yourself in the present. You know, grounding yourself in the present is the greatest enemy of anxiety.

Steven Bartlett 42:46 What other tools have you learned from therapy? I feel like I can, uh, I can learn a lot from you without having to pay the- the- the therapist. Sorry. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 42:54 Sure. Well, that's flattering.

Steven Bartlett 42:55 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 42:55 Um, yeah, I try not to talk too much about mental health just in general, um, because everyone has an incredibly personal relationship to it. And I feel like there's a lot of armchair experts on the internet right now acting like, you know, or diagnosing people or doing stuff like that, which I find in- I, uh, that is so atrocious, I can't believe people even do that. Um, and I think the conversation abou- around mental health, unless it's being done by truly a trained professional, is probably not the greatest thing to listen to. So with that disclaimer-

Steven Bartlett 43:30 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 43:30 ... I will say, um, whenever I'm feeling heightened emotionally, I will take a break from whatever I am doing. I will truly walk away from whatever I am doing. I will tell, if it is an argument with someone, I will go, "Hey, right now I'm feeling some heightened emotion. If you don't mind, let's pick up this conversation in about 20 minutes." Give yourself time. You know, I, uh, I try to approach everything with a kind of logos that- that, you know, allows me to think more clearly and calmly about what I do. Um, which can be off-putting to some people, uh, because not a lot of people like being met, uh, with logos when they're heightened emotionally, or being met with solutions when they're just trying to vent.

Steven Bartlett 44:18 Mm-hmm.

Cole Sprouse 44:19 Um, it's one of the first things you learn when you're in a serious relationship.

Steven Bartlett 44:22 Yeah. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 44:23 Uh, especially as a guy. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 44:25 Yeah. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 44:25 For su- for sure, 'cause most, a lot- a lot of us are solution-based people.

Steven Bartlett 44:29 Yeah. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 44:29 You know, um-

Steven Bartlett 44:30 I can relate.

Cole Sprouse 44:31 But I'll take a break. That's the be- that's honestly the most helpful thing I've done. I've, I'll also try and remind myself of, you know, grounding myself in the senses, or I will, uh, I'll remind myself that, one, you're not the only person that's ever gone through anxiety or will ever go through anxiety, and two, um, the problem as you perceive it, the- the vastness of the problem as you perceive it, is not the way other people perceive it.

Steven Bartlett 44:56 What about your relationship with boundaries?

Cole Sprouse 44:58 What I'm, what- Please explain.

Steven Bartlett 44:59 Well, so, you know, I, you, the very first story you told about being eight months old, at eight months old, you don't have boundaries.

Cole Sprouse 45:05 Of course, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:06 So they are obviously easily exploited.

Cole Sprouse 45:08 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:08 As you grow older, sometimes when those boundaries weren't firm when they were young, and you were maybe people pleasing or you were seeking validation-

Cole Sprouse 45:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:16 ... that can have a sort of cascading effect into adulthood. What's your relationship been like with saying no and protecting boundaries, whether it's professionally-

Cole Sprouse 45:23 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 45:24 ... personally, in relationships?

Cole Sprouse 45:25 Well, that's a great question, and one I'm far more qualified to answer now than I was even two years, three years ago. Um, I can honest to God say that I did not love myself enough as a younger man, especially my mid to late 20s. For sure did not love myself enough, did not respect my own boundaries.

Steven Bartlett 45:45 What did that look like?

Cole Sprouse 45:46 Um, that looked like rolling over in the face of a lot of adversity, especially when it came to romantic relationships. Um, I was a people pleaser. I- I was a people pleaser professionally, I was a people pleaser, uh, romantically. I was practically a fucking nurse to whoever needed my help in very many ways, likely as a byproduct of my upbringing. But, um, what that meant was oftentimes crossing my own boundaries as an attempt to make others feel better. And as I've gotten older, I've become more okay with, uh, turning people off, which is all right. You know, you're going to polarize individuals. You are going to get along with certain people and not get along with other people. That's totally okay. And I think as I've aged, I've tried to, um, I've tried to remind myself, "Yeah, that was an awkward interaction, that was a bad interaction with someone, but you're gonna have those, man. That's okay. Move on." And as I've loved myself now, and thankfully I'm, uh, you know, I'm in a relationship right now with a woman who's so emotionally understanding and- and just the best. And, you know, it helps when others can be like, "Yeah, dude," encourage you in the right direction and be like, "Yeah, it's okay." Like, we're, like, 'cause I will, I know myself, I will fall back on like, "Are you all right?" Like, "Is everything okay?" Like, like trying to control a situation through making sure everyone is happy, you know? But it's not a, you know, it's not a fucking video game. You can't-

Steven Bartlett 47:24 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 47:24 ... get, like, the best solution where everyone is okay. Sometimes you're gonna really have to polarize some people, and tha- and that's all right. My only boundaries, I would say, uh, when it comes to, when it comes to my professional career or otherwise, um, I really don't like condescension. So, like, if I feel condescension in any sort of way, if I see other people being condescending to others, if- if- if I can sense a- a kind of pretentiousness or condescension, that's usually something that will either take me to leave the room or confront another person about it and be like, "Hey, why'd you- why'd you do that?"

Steven Bartlett 48:02 What has, um, that relationship you described, what has love taught you about yourself?

Cole Sprouse 48:06 Oh, so much, man. I've had the pleasure of being in love three times. The pleasure. Um, I've had f- I'd say three big relationships in my life, three girlfriends in my life. Um, I mean, my first one when I was, like, a kid, but that was just kind of puppy love stuff. And then I had one in college. Um, I dated a co-star on Riverdale. Um, and now I'm- I'm in love again. And every time, it has been (sighs) pretty distinct. I think maybe the first two a-... college and my last girlfriend were far more similar because of me, uh, because I was still approaching it the same way. Um, and then I did a lot of self-work, and I fell in love again, um, thankfully. And it has taught me a lot. Like I mentioned, I was a people pleaser. I was deathly afraid of being perceived as anything other than perfect for a long time, and so I would roll over quite a bit in order to make sure that... As long as they were happy, that's what love is, you know, is this sort of consistent happiness. Um, and I was also actively suppressing my emotions and, like, not really discussing what I actually felt about a situation because I was afraid of retaliation in very many ways. Um, I was afraid. Uh-

Steven Bartlett 49:37 Where did that come from?

Cole Sprouse 49:38 Oh, I mean, certainly my youth. Certainly my youth.

Steven Bartlett 49:41 Your youth?

Cole Sprouse 49:42 I think growing up in, you know, building an entire life and business model off of the validation of other people certainly made me, um, open to it. But I also think the first relationship I ever had with, with a female figure, which is the mother figure in everyone's life, was an incredibly tenuous and fractured relationship with, with, um, with a, a tortured individual, which made me go, "I can fix things. Don't worry, I got it." You know? "D- No, you're all good. It's okay." Um, and I brought that in. I brought that in a lot. While-

Steven Bartlett 50:21 Were you trying to make her happy, your mother?

Cole Sprouse 50:23 Oh, of course. Yeah, I think so. When I was younger especially, but even now as an, an adult, you know? I, uh-

Steven Bartlett 50:30 Even, even now?

Cole Sprouse 50:31 Yeah, yeah. Of course.

Steven Bartlett 50:33 You don't speak to your, to your mother anymore?

Cole Sprouse 50:34 I don't. I don't. But, um, she put me on this path. And there was once a woman who was very clear-headed and who had a beautiful vision of the kind of people my brother and I could be, and in very many ways I honor the dream she once had, so that if she were lucid enough, um, and came back and saw what I had become, she would go, "Man, I was right." And in that way, it would validate the entire life of pain and trauma that she has gone through.

Steven Bartlett 51:14 Are you s- Are you sad about where your relationship is with her?

Cole Sprouse 51:16 Of course. Everyone is. Everyone is sad about something that could... I mean, unless you're a sociopath. Um, when something beautiful and, and lovely goes rotten, it can be a very sad thing. Um, and it does make me sad, but it's also life. And that's the lesson that I've had to learn from it, is that, you know, that sadness is okay. It means I'm human. It means I loved something outside of myself in a, in a way that was so beautiful and so boundless that, that it makes me feel one of the strongest, most eternal of human emotions, which is sadness, like real sadness. And that's okay.

Steven Bartlett 51:59 Do you, do you... Does part of you, like, hold out? And this is kind of speaking from my experience as well.

Cole Sprouse 52:03 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 52:04 Does part of you kind of hold out for things to just... (fingers snap)

Cole Sprouse 52:08 Get better or go completely wrong?

Steven Bartlett 52:11 Get better.

Cole Sprouse 52:13 No, I don't do that anymore.

Steven Bartlett 52:14 What about the opposite? You seemed more compelled by the opposite outcome, go completely wrong.

Cole Sprouse 52:17 Um, I mean, I'm sure you've reconciled this as well, but there's a part of you that goes, "Oh, what if this is my last communication with an individual?" You know?

Steven Bartlett 52:26 Mm-hmm.

Cole Sprouse 52:27 Of course you have. How would that make me feel as a consequence thereof?

Steven Bartlett 52:31 How would it make you feel if this was your... You'd never got to speak to your mother again?

Cole Sprouse 52:34 You know, and going back to the previous question, I tried for very, very many years to try and, to try and do everything I could. Um, but at some point or another, it comes down to the individual, which is the hardest part. Like, you want someone to change or do something. And this also goes to romance, this goes to friendships, this goes to, to blood, to whatever it is. You can really yearn for someone to do the right thing, and the hardest part is even if you set up the entire environment for them to do so, uh, unless they choose it for themselves, it's just not gonna happen. And so I used to blame myself quite a bit for not just my relationship to blood, but you know, I used to blame myself for all of the relationships in my life going wrong until I realized that yeah, in almost every relationship, it takes two to tango. Friendships, romance, blood, some- The other person has to be a participant in the dance just as much as you are participating in the dance in order for the outcome to be the one that you guys both desire.

Steven Bartlett 53:39 When you say that you used to blame yourself for relationships in your life going wrong-

Cole Sprouse 53:42 Yeah, but it-

Steven Bartlett 53:42 ... does that mean that you originally blamed yourself for the relationship with either your mother or father or the relationship between you and your mother going wrong?

Cole Sprouse 53:49 Um, I did, because unfortunately, as a consequence of being a working child, you're forced into an authority position when you're quite small, right? Which is, now you're the breadwinner of the family-

Steven Bartlett 54:01 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 54:01 ... over the adults. So, in very many ways, you take this very strange au- like, uh, role of authority and, and positioning when it comes to, uh, the subsistence of, of a nuclear family, which is not a role a child should be put in. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 54:19 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 54:19 So, when it does go wrong, as a natural byproduct of the authority that you feel as a consequence of, you know, your professional life, you can adopt some of the blame on yourself, which I will say I do not do anymore.

Steven Bartlett 54:31 Was that... Are you talking about the divorce there-

Cole Sprouse 54:33 No.

Steven Bartlett 54:33 ... or are you talking about the relationship with your mother?

Cole Sprouse 54:35 Yeah, just everything. Work, mother, life-

Steven Bartlett 54:37 Okay.

Cole Sprouse 54:37 ... whatever it is.

Steven Bartlett 54:38 Super interesting.

Cole Sprouse 54:39 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, dude, it's, this is also like... It should be said that-... the working child. A, a, a child that has worked since they were eight months old. You have to understand that, that is a, not to sound like a fucking special snowflake as an identical twin, you know what I mean? Which is the greatest, uh, contradiction. But that is a (sighs) life, an upbringing, that is very, very, very, very rare. Very rare. N- There's only a handful of people that have that really weird, um, path through the world. Most of them are in the United States. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:21 Mm.

Cole Sprouse 55:22 And most of them, you know, the sensationalism of their, of their upbringing is talked about all over. Um, so that's, um, that comes with a lot of bullshit. And it affects, to tie us all back... I'm getting us back.

Steven Bartlett 55:36 Good. Thank God for that.

Cole Sprouse 55:37 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:37 'Cause I couldn't see how we'd make it back. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 55:39 Yeah. Um, that affects how you navigate everything in your life. Your relationships, which is what we were talking about, friendships, blood, all that stuff. And my relationships were deeply affected by my upbringing, of course. My friendships were affected by my upbringing. My relationship to my family was affected by my upbringing. But at some point or another, you have to go, "Yeah, I'm on the right path." And even if it's not, I'll try and make it the right path, and I'll grow from it.

Steven Bartlett 56:05 What makes you alive then? Like, what brings, what brings your heart to life these days?

Cole Sprouse 56:08 Passionate conversation-

Steven Bartlett 56:09 Really?

Cole Sprouse 56:10 ... for sure. Without a doubt.

Steven Bartlett 56:11 How many of them have you had?

Cole Sprouse 56:13 Lots.

Steven Bartlett 56:13 Publicly?

Cole Sprouse 56:14 Not publicly, no. In fact, I've only done one other podcast. Um, and these kinda public conversations are quite rare, which is why I love this medium so much. But I, but I've, I've thankfully, I've surrounded myself with individuals that are capable of all having these conversations, and for really diving into, to what it is that makes us all feel alive. Um, and I think, truthfully, I sink (sees) , I think seekers of this kind of conversation find each other. It's weird.

Steven Bartlett 56:43 Mm.

Cole Sprouse 56:44 They really do. And you can see it in others' eyes. Like, y- you can see people that love this shit in their eyes. And so, I've thankful- I, I mean, I host dinner parties and stuff-

Steven Bartlett 56:54 Mm.

Cole Sprouse 56:54 ... and try and get as many people together to have these sort of conversations, and it can be a little bit awkward for the first five minutes-

Steven Bartlett 56:59 Yeah. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 56:59 ... when you're like, "Now, what are we talking about?" Um, but that's incredibly enriching to me.

Steven Bartlett 57:05 Okay, so you've just, you've just heed- teed this up so perfectly.

Cole Sprouse 57:07 Perfect, hit it.

Steven Bartlett 57:08 Everything

Steven Bartlett 57:09 you've just des- described, the type of person that likes deep conversations is very much the type of people that listen to The Diary of a CEO. And we have a closing tradition on this podcast where, where guests write a question in the diary for the next guest. They never get to see who they're writing it for.

Cole Sprouse 57:22 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 57:22 So, because we know that the type of person that listens to this is b- by clear, um, linkage ... terrible use of words, the type of person that likes deep conversations, we wanted to take all of the questions out of this diary-

Cole Sprouse 57:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:34 ... that have, uh, been written into them, and allow people to play-

Cole Sprouse 57:38 Cool.

Steven Bartlett 57:38 ... at dinner parties-

Cole Sprouse 57:39 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 57:39 ... The Diary of a CEO, which is they can ask their friends deep conversations that have been written into this book. You also get to see who wrote the qu- the, the question for the first time.

Cole Sprouse 57:48 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 57:48 I wanna play with you-

Cole Sprouse 57:49 Yeah, please.

Steven Bartlett 57:49 ... right now.

Cole Sprouse 57:50 Ask me some questions.

Steven Bartlett 57:51 I am, I took some cards out. There's about 100 cards in total, but I took the ones that I thought were the biggest stitch-ups. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 57:55 Cool, man. That's a great idea. I love that.

Steven Bartlett 57:57 So, what I'm gonna do, I will also answer one-

Cole Sprouse 58:00 Yup.

Steven Bartlett 58:00 ... but I'm gonna lay them out here.

Cole Sprouse 58:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 58:02 You pick one that you wanna answer, whichever one feels right for you, and then I'll pick one as well, and I'll answer it. Well, we'll go through the, all of them. So, we'll pick one at a time.

Cole Sprouse 58:11 One. Can I, and I pick one?

Steven Bartlett 58:13 Okay, I'll pick one. So, so you, you answer that one.

Cole Sprouse 58:17 I answer this one?

Steven Bartlett 58:18 Yeah.

Cole Sprouse 58:18 This is by Tim Grover. This is, "What is your dark side?" Um, I think the dark side of myself is definitely the narcissistic side of myself that can come out when I am feeling super proud of something that I do.

Steven Bartlett 58:34 Mm.

Cole Sprouse 58:35 And I will oftentimes try to humble that. It'll get me seeking decadence. It'll get me seeking external stimulation from my environment and yearning for that, which is, you know, what every stoic philosopher would be like, "Dude, shut up." Um, and I, I really relate to that. I, I think my worst side is the side that is seeking validation from other people, um, rather than understanding and placing myself in my environment and going, "Wow, I'm so privileged to have what I have, and where I'm at." And I believe that's the lifestyle.

Steven Bartlett 59:08 What a beautiful answer.

Cole Sprouse 59:08 Yeah. So please, what you got?

Steven Bartlett 59:09 Okay, mine is from Will Storr, who is an expert on the topic of status-

Cole Sprouse 59:14 Cool.

Steven Bartlett 59:14 ... who wrote a book about it, um, which is kind of about validation and wanting to be famous, et cetera.

Cole Sprouse 59:17 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 59:18 "Who is the person you'd most like to say sorry to but haven't?" (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 59:22 Ooh.

Steven Bartlett 59:22 A stitch-up. I told you-

Cole Sprouse 59:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:24 ... I picked these questions to stitch you up, but I decided to answer them when I laid them out.

Cole Sprouse 59:27 Please.

Steven Bartlett 59:27 So, mine would actually be my mother-

Cole Sprouse 59:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:30 ... because she didn't get an education.

Cole Sprouse 59:32 Aw.

Steven Bartlett 59:32 So, um, I've often framed her in my story as being, I don't know, like, she- she's been the centerpoint of difficult moments in my life. But she's also, like the 95% of my story with her, is just this woman that absolutely to her core absolutely loves me-

Cole Sprouse 59:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 59:46 ... and my whole life, her whole life is me.

Cole Sprouse 59:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 59:48 And, and, you know, like, growing up she did everything for us. She, she raised us five days a week. She can't read or write herself growing up.

Cole Sprouse 59:54 Wow.

Steven Bartlett 59:54 She raised these four kids that I think are all pretty good-

Cole Sprouse 59:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 59:57 ... decent kids. Um, so I'd say that, I'd probably say sorry to her for not spending enough time in conversation talking about her brilliance, and the fact that I am the reason, she is the reason I'm an entrepreneur.

Cole Sprouse 1:00:08 Great answer, man. Great answer. Okay. You pointed at one, but I'm not gonna pick it-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:13 I don't know. I don't know any- (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 1:00:15 ... out of tradition.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:15 I'm not. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 1:00:19 Rochelle Humes.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:21 Ooh.

Cole Sprouse 1:00:22 "If you could turn back the clock on one day this year and do it differently, what day would it be and why?" Ooh. (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 1:00:33 That's difficult.

Cole Sprouse 1:00:36 I try not to live doing that too much, where I feel like I need to change something. But, um ... So, I am sober. I've been sober for about a year and some change. And it's been a wonderful thing in my life. Um, but I have-... thankfully had the self-awareness to apologize to some people in my life, in the past, in a similar way that the card that you just pulled. Um, and in order to protect another person's feelings, I did not tell them that I was going to be apologizing to an individual, um, because I was afraid of the consequences of that face-to-face meeting. I know this is a little-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:22 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 1:01:22 ... confusing. Um, but if I could turn back and do it differently, I would be so transparent about that meeting over coffee to the affected individuals in order to be like, "Hey, um, I'm letting you know this is happening. I know that this is blah, blah, blah, but I just wanna let you know, with full transparency, this is what it is, blah, blah, blah." Um-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:44 Got you.

Cole Sprouse 1:01:46 But otherwise, I try not to live like that. E-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:48 So, so I'm clear, you apologized to someone and there was r- there was a repercussion of that apology which you wish you had kind of foresaw and addressed?

Cole Sprouse 1:01:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:58 Okay.

Cole Sprouse 1:01:58 Exactly right.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:59 Cool.

Cole Sprouse 1:01:59 Exactly right. Because sometimes meeting with other people makes others uncomfortable. Like, th- their, you know, especially, especially as you (laughs) grow older, some people are like, "Why'd you meet with that individual?" But I think, for me, I would've just been super, super transparent about it and been like, "Hey, this is happening, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Um, and that's been a consequence of the work I've done as I've cleaned my life up. So, I look back on that one day and I go, "Hey, man. The work you did should've told you that you could've been fully transparent with that, even if it made other people uncomfortable." And I probably would've done that different. But otherwise, I try not ... I really try not to think like that.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:37 'Cause they're lessons, right?

Cole Sprouse 1:02:38 Because it's all lessons, because I made that mistake for a reason, you know? And now I'll never do it again. And I ... The fact that I even said that as an answer means I've already learned my lesson.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:47 You'd rather the lesson was in the past?

Cole Sprouse 1:02:49 Yeah, of course.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:50 (laughs) Yeah.

Cole Sprouse 1:02:50 Of course, and in the future at some point.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:52 Yeah. (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 1:02:52 It's a place you're at.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:53 All right, sugar. Okay, here we go. Tell me something about yourself that nobody knows (laughs) and would be surprised to know about you. Fucking hell. Oh, shit.

Cole Sprouse 1:03:02 Let's hear about your internet history, bro.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:05 (laughs) Marisa Peer. Um, so I had a guest on this podcast called-

Cole Sprouse 1:03:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:10 ... called Steve Peters-

Cole Sprouse 1:03:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:12 ... who's just this incredible, like, psychiatr- psychiatric therapist, et cetera, et cetera. Um, after he left, I contacted him and spoke to him s- about something. I was dealing with this predicament in my mind-

Cole Sprouse 1:03:26 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:26 ... and I was bouncing between two outcomes. And it's the first time in my entire life, and I've spoken to so many therapists, that I've ever spoken to a therapist privately to try and resolve something.

Cole Sprouse 1:03:36 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:36 And I say that because ... I say that for one r- honestly, just for one reason, which is, I've spent so long on this podcast talking to therapists, including Marisa Peer, who wrote this question, P-

Cole Sprouse 1:03:45 And?

Steven Bartlett 1:03:45 Marisa's P- Ms. Marisa Peer. But I've never spoken about the fact that I too have spoken to a therapist about personal challenges that I faced. And Marisa P- Peer is just one of the best ever, and so is, um, Professor Steve Peters.

Cole Sprouse 1:03:59 Do you feel embarrassed to talk about that?

Steven Bartlett 1:04:00 I think I did. I think I did. I think, I think I always have. I think ... It's funny because this is therapy for me.

Cole Sprouse 1:04:06 Mm-hmm. True.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:07 And I lay it all out, you know? I-

Cole Sprouse 1:04:08 Yeah, true.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:08 The Diary of a Ste- Diary of a CEO started as, like, my therapy. It was like me writing things in this diary, then sharing with the- them with the world. But I, despite my guests telling me about the profundity of speaking to someone else, as you have today, as you did in Canada, I believe, I've never done it myself until that moment where I spoke to Steve and said, "This is what I'm dealing with. Like, how do I navigate through this?" And i- it's incredible. It's incredible.

Cole Sprouse 1:04:34 I, I thi- I think it'll... Uh.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:37 'Cause you can't ... Your brain can't think yourself out of the fucking...

Cole Sprouse 1:04:40 No, I, I also think (sighs) a good therapist is like, you know, your first house. Like, like it arrives to you precisely when it's supposed to.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:49 Mm-hmm.

Cole Sprouse 1:04:50 You know? It ... Because ultimately what we're all seeking, at least in therapy with the help of a trained professional, but it's a human connection. It's-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:58 Mm-hmm.

Cole Sprouse 1:04:58 ... see another person, you know, we all want our Good Will Hunting.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:00 Mm-hmm.

Cole Sprouse 1:05:01 You know? We, we wanna, we wanna sit down and have someone who has a, a deeply enticing personal connection to you and goes, "I, I hear you, man. I hear you. You're okay. Like, have you thought about it this way?" And so I do find a lot of these kind of conversations can be inching close to that. And in that way, I'll say, I do think there are a ton of different forms of therapy-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:23 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 1:05:24 ... you know, of self-soothing, of methods. I find a tremendous therapy by going into the wilderness, as an example.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:31 Mm-hmm.

Cole Sprouse 1:05:31 You know, I, I, I find that tr- a really healthy thing for me to do, to sort of disconnect and leave and go into the woods and do all that sort of stuff. But I also think the other stuff is super valuable too. And I, I, I don't think there's any shame in, in talking about it. I think that's great.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:48 I've, I've thought about it so many times in my life. Like, there's been so many moments in my life, I think, like, 10 where I've seriously considered like, "I need, I need to go speak to someone else about this 'cause I can't figure this out myself." I remember, like, maybe two, three years ago, I was ... There was something like business, um, challenge I was facing and it was just, like, keeping me up all night. And I remember going on the internet contacting someone and being like, "Can I, can I speak to you about this?"

Cole Sprouse 1:06:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:10 And it's because I'm looking for a trained professional, like, that can coach me through my thought processes.

Cole Sprouse 1:06:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:16 Um, what you've described is so interesting to me because you said two things. The first thing you said is, therapy in, in essence, is like a s- a pursuit of connection with someone.

Cole Sprouse 1:06:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:23 And then the second thing you said is about how nature is therapy. These are all things that humans knew very well-

Cole Sprouse 1:06:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:29 ... in our natural life 10,000 years ago.

Cole Sprouse 1:06:31 Oh, man. Look, I studied archeology. You don't gotta tell me-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:33 Well, there you go. Go.

Cole Sprouse 1:06:33 ... that we become more-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:34 Yes.

Cole Sprouse 1:06:34 ... disenfranchised over time 'cause I know that shit.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:36 Isn't that funny that therapy is just being more human?

Cole Sprouse 1:06:39 Oh, I, I, I also think, look, (sighs) we just wanna ... we wanna be heard, man. We, we look for soul. We all look for soul in other people. We wanna know that soul exists. We wanna justify our soul by looking for soul in other people. And when you find people with soul, you wanna hang onto people with soul. That's what we do.You know, and I, I, I think when you're baring your soul, especially in a sort of therapy environment, you want someone to, to pick it up and go, "God, I see this thing, man. Yeah, I see it. I did something like this." So, I mean, for me, it took me awhile finding a therapist that was, um, that was willing to be hands-on.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:22 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 1:07:23 You know, there's this sort of, uh-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:25 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 1:07:25 ... hands-off approach to a lot of, um, you know, mental health work, just in general. And I, I just, I can't do that, man. I, I need someone like, you know, in a, in a sort of similar way to this, is two people sitting down and going, "God, man. Yeah, for sure."

Steven Bartlett 1:07:40 If therapy is, is there for connection, then the thing that drives us to therapy must be disconnection-

Cole Sprouse 1:07:45 Of course, man.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:45 ... a feeling of disconnection.

Cole Sprouse 1:07:46 Of course.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:47 Well, and that disconnection can be anything, disconnection from nature, from people, from life-

Cole Sprouse 1:07:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:50 ... from purpose, whatever.

Cole Sprouse 1:07:51 Yeah. It's, it's, you know, you become afraid of your own soul being too disconnected from, from everything around you, or that, or that you're s- that you feel so entirely alone or unique that, that, uh, no one else really understands you is a hard thing. So, so when you go into therapy, as an example, and someone goes, "Yeah, dude, I hear you." Hmm. You know? But then if the f- if the fucking alarm rings and they go, "Your hour's up." "Okay."

Steven Bartlett 1:08:19 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 1:08:20 That, to me, uh, uh, that-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:21 That's disconnection, right?

Cole Sprouse 1:08:22 That's disconnection-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:22 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 1:08:23 ... 'cause then it, then it feels like a monetary exchange. I'm like, "Ah, I don't want that." All right. Okay. I'll pick this one.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:28 Haven't I done two? Oh yeah, that's the other one. Okay.

Cole Sprouse 1:08:31 (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 1:08:32 Your next book.

Cole Sprouse 1:08:33 How could you be more authentically you, by Fern Cotton. Is that pronounced correct?

Steven Bartlett 1:08:38 Yep. Nailed it.

Cole Sprouse 1:08:39 Perfect. How could I be more authentically you? I mean, I think stuff more like this. I gotta be less afraid of, of people going, "Wow. He said what?" I just don't care anymore. I'm like, I'm, I'm, dude, I'm 30.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:54 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 1:08:54 Like, I lived a lot of that anxiety shit in, in my 20s, and I, I truly believe that your 20s are meant to be a Petri dish for mistake that you're supposed to learn lessons from, and go into your 30s and be, be better at. And I, and I don't know, I think I am practicing authenticity in a way. But I think it's complicated because I don't know if a life in, in entertainment, people actually seek authenticity, which is something I'm dealing with. And I think for acting, it's also a real dilemma because the more you show an authentic version of yourself, the harder it can be for people to suspend that and see you as a character, um, which is something I'm sort of sitting down and having a conversation with myself about. Um, but I'm not gonna control what other people think, you know? And I think, uh, I think I am practicing authenticity in very many ways. How could I be more authentically me? Um, standing my ground, setting my boundaries, you know, recognizing my own bottom line behaviors before I, you know, stumble into that shit.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:01 Hmm. Have you ever felt the cost of authenti- of inauthenticity?

Cole Sprouse 1:10:06 Of inauthenticity?

Steven Bartlett 1:10:07 Yeah.

Cole Sprouse 1:10:07 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:08 What, what is the cost in your view? What's the personal toll?

Cole Sprouse 1:10:11 Um, exposure. If you're exposed to be a fraudster-

Steven Bartlett 1:10:15 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 1:10:16 ... yeah, if you're exposed to be a sort of snake oil salesman, that can be quite embarrassing. Um, inau- inauthenticity can also get you into a place where you actually don't have the skillset to perform whatever you're trying (laughs) to perform. But I also think inauthenticity or feelings of inauthenticity are a natural part of, of courage. You're gonna doubt yourself a little bit before you go into anything. And I, I don't know, I always find my most effective, uh, means of surviving anything is just kinda being thrown into the fire and being like, "All right, I'm here. What are we doing? Let's go."

Steven Bartlett 1:10:47 Hmm. (laughs) Uh, here we go. Fucking another stitch up. James Watt: What is the belief that you hold that most people disagree with you on? Hmm. So many, in fact.

Cole Sprouse 1:10:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:59 Um-

Cole Sprouse 1:10:59 That's great, man. That's good.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:00 Th- Um, the first one I'm gonna say is (clears throat) what's something that most people disagree with me on? Trying to decide between... I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say the point about manifestation. Um, I think this is super controversial because anything that gives, centers people on a sense of personal responsibility is typically not well-received. Like, people don't love the concept of personal responsibility. Obviously, there's lots of nuance to this-

Cole Sprouse 1:11:24 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:24 ... but I would say that when, the way that society and culture and Instagram have described the process of manifestation is largely bullshit. Um, and I think that manifest- like, knowing the, like, I, the example I always give is getting in the car and setting the satnav is, of course, important because if I just drove without direction, I'd be lost. But if I don't drive-

Cole Sprouse 1:11:44 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:45 ... I'm also just sat in my garage with a satnav set-

Cole Sprouse 1:11:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:48 ... all day. Um, I don't think you can just manifest your, your, yourself, your way there in life. I think luck plays a huge role. Circumstance plays a huge role, where you live. If, if I was still in Botswana, there's not gonna be a Diary of a CEO interviewing you today, right?

Cole Sprouse 1:12:03 Sure, maybe.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:04 If my, if, if my mum hadn't met my da- so there's circumstance, there's luck, there is will, there is hard work, there is trauma, there's conviction, and then there is also a, uh, an importance to know the direction you're going in. But I think manifestation as an idea is oversold because-

Cole Sprouse 1:12:18 I agree.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:18 ... it makes life easy and comfortable, and it also, it obfuscates us of the responsibility of work and personal responsibility.

Cole Sprouse 1:12:25 I think it is, I think it's absurd to pursue comfort, absurd, in anything you do. I think at some point or another when your hands are on the wheel, and this car with the satnav, you're gonna have to fucking drive. And if the satnav goes out, "Mm-hmm." Okay, man. You're still behind the wheel driving a fucking vehicle.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:48 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 1:12:48 You know, I, I, I think you also have to really strongly believe in yourself. Really strongly believe in yourself. Because there's a lot of things that people love gatekeeping shit. It's crazy. Everyone loves it, especially on the internet. They love gatekeeping. It's like the first thing you're gonna interact with when you jump into something new. People are gonna go, "Not that guy."

Steven Bartlett 1:13:10 ... you know, "What, weren't you doing this?" Or, uh, "Ah, don't do, don't talk about that. Don't do this."

Cole Sprouse 1:13:14 People love gatekeeping, which is so funny, 'cause it, the i- the idea that we have to be, like, these incredibly specialized, needle-fine, like, kind of people is ridiculous. You know, I, I try everything, go into it boldly, but you gotta believe in your success, and you have to take accountability.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:34 Have you struggled with that la- that idea of being labeled as something?

Cole Sprouse 1:13:37 Oh, of course.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:38 'Cause, you know, there's people listening to this now who are, like, a lawyer, or they are-

Cole Sprouse 1:13:41 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:41 ... a whatever, right? And they want, they have this passion for something else. It could be photography, like you, but they're a lawyer. Their bio says lawyer. Their LinkedIn says lawyer.

Cole Sprouse 1:13:49 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 1:13:49 And the, the resistance, the social resistance, but also the psychological resistance of, that that label is creating keeps them confined in a way that is not fulfilling or conducive with a happier life. So, breaking out of those labels, when you were a, a, you know, a star from such a young age, you get your labels super early.

Cole Sprouse 1:14:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:09 "Cole, you are an actor."

Cole Sprouse 1:14:10 Mm-hmm. I, I am, in very many ways, a child star, is what I'm called quite often.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:14 Yeah.

Cole Sprouse 1:14:15 Which, okay. But dude, I mean, look, anyone that doesn't think outside of terms of labels is just useless to me. I, I, I gotta be real. Like, anyone that cannot find a deeper humanity in whatever, um, whatever kind of person they're sitting across at a table is probably a pretty useless person to talk to, in my opinion.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:38 Hmm.

Cole Sprouse 1:14:38 Um, I think labels can be difficult, and, and also helpful in very many ways. Let's say you're a lawyer. "Yeah, man, make that money on that, on that label. Sure. Make that money on that label." And then surround yourself with the people that don't see you as, "This is my lawyer friend." You know? Because, uh, you don't need that many people. You need a roundtable of people that are gonna be like, "Yeah, that's Cole. Cool. Wow, what a Renaissance human that guy is." You know, that's what you really want people to say, "Oh, man, what a good person that person is." You know, "That's great." The label thing can be difficult, but I think it's useless to think like that. I, I think anyone that goes, "Wow," you know, this, anything outside of human, you know, i- is silly. And I know this sounds a bit woo-woo and pretentious, and it, 'cause it does, people are like, "Don't label me. Uh-uh-uh." But, um, I think it's true. I, I, I, I don't think thinking in terms of labeling is useful in the slightest, in the slightest. And I, I would like to think, at the end of all of our lives, we- we've, we've surrounded ourselves with, you know, a rich enough body of experience to go, "Yeah, man, I tried blacksmithing for a period of time."

Steven Bartlett 1:15:52 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 1:15:52 "Yeah, dude, I crafted a little necklace. Uh, I was a silversmith for about a year, and I tried that shit out, and it went really well." Um, and I think people are gonna try and gatekeep you, but it, I, I think what I mean is that you're always gonna have to fight against some sort of label, regardless of what it is. And if there's a bouncer at the door gatekeeping you from getting inside the club, guarantee you that there is a fucking side entrance. Guarantee you. And you gotta, you gotta fight your way to get there, man. I, I, I, I'm a firm believer in that. And you have to also reco- recognize the kind of, um, restrictions that are being put on you, but I think you always gotta fight for yourself. If you don't fight for yourself, li- legitimately no one else is going to.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:37 Earlier on, you said something to me. You said, have I ever... You, you said... Have I ever sort of hypothetically played out the scenario that the, that person in my life, my mother, might not be here, and-

Cole Sprouse 1:16:47 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:47 ... reflecting upon that being the last conversation I had with her, how would I feel?

Cole Sprouse 1:16:51 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:51 I've got two pictures here.

Cole Sprouse 1:16:52 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:54 What are the words unsaid to this individual?

Cole Sprouse 1:16:59 Ahh. That's my father, and that could be my brother or myself. I have no idea. What are the words that are not said to that individual? Um, "You were at the exact place that you were supposed to be right when you were supposed to be there," for sure. My father was 27 when he had two identical twin boys. That's big, you know? I'm 30. I can't imagine having two identical twins. Um, sorry to expose you, Pop, but he immediately got a vasectomy right after he found out he was having two twins.

Steven Bartlett 1:17:37 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 1:17:37 I just find that hilarious. It's my favorite story about him. Um, he was in Italy at the time. I'd say, "Man, what is your hair routine? It's looking great."

Steven Bartlett 1:17:47 (laughs)

Cole Sprouse 1:17:47 Uh...

Steven Bartlett 1:17:47 He looks like a stud in that photo.

Cole Sprouse 1:17:49 Yeah, he's, this is a stud photo. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Good job, Pop. Um, "You're at the exact place you need to be right when you were supposed to be there, and whatever happens in the following years are all the lessons that you need to take for the future of your life. But every step of the way, you've been exactly where you're supposed to be," for sure.

Steven Bartlett 1:18:11 The words unsaid to this person?

Cole Sprouse 1:18:15 Mm-hmm. It's funny, I was thinking about writing that in this journal, is-

Steven Bartlett 1:18:18 Oh, really?

Cole Sprouse 1:18:18 ... what would you say to your childhood self? That's funny. (sighs) This kid, um... This is me on the left, Dylan on the right. Um, I wouldn't wanna condition this kid at all. I see a kid that's, like, so present in this moment, and I've had this dilemma 'cause I have some step-siblings. And I find myself wanting to ask them, like, "Hey, you been thinking about college? Hey," like, "what are you thinking about in the future?" Um, I think I'd probably just talk to this kid about, like, hippos, or platypus, or some, some, some fun shit, you know? Pokemon, whatever it was. I don't, I don't think it's wise to...... put the future or past tense thinking of an adult onto a child. And I think it's your responsibility as an adult who loves a child to encourage that lantern consciousness and that presented-ness for as long as you can, and as far as you can. And anything that takes them away from that presented-ness should be the enemy of your life and that child's life.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:41 Isn't that what happened to you?

Cole Sprouse 1:19:42 Yeah, it is. It is. And that was the perfect lesson I needed to know for my eventual children.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:49 What about Dylan?

Cole Sprouse 1:19:50 My, my brother and I have made it this far and have been as okay as we have become because we did not feel lonely. We always had each other as a frame of reference to grow up and alongside. And I think, um, I think I'm incredibly privileged for that, and he