The Diary of a CEOCole Sprouse: My Narcissistic Mum Sacrificed My Childhood For Fame! | E229
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,144 words- 0:00 – 2:28
Intro
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you ever had a conversation like this one publicly?
- CSCole Sprouse
No. I think it'll be fun. Cole Sprouse. From Disney Channel's The Suite Life of Zack & Cody. Riverdale. Big daddy friends. You're my hero. Thank you, sweet pea.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were you pushed into acting?
- CSCole Sprouse
I would hardly call it pushing, because I was eight months old. Single mom, two twin boys, put food on the table, so the choice never really existed. You guys are big stars now.
- NANarrator
We are.
- CSCole Sprouse
Yes, sir. What do you think about that? My mother was living vicariously through the success of her children, a person that grapples with mental illness, drug abuse, but primarily narcissism, a wicked narcissism. But that selfishness is something that the legal system also observed and said that she was unfit. The court had to step in.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your relationship with acting and the entertainment industry, it's been a journey.
- CSCole Sprouse
I loved being on stage. I didn't like the... that came with it. This industry encourages the worst qualities of you: selfishness, greed. You know, authenticity and vulnerability are not really encouraged traits.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do you feel about that?
- CSCole Sprouse
You're given these lessons in your life so that you can triumph over them and use the traits that you've acquired from those lessons over time to carve out who you are.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've got two pictures here, then. What are the words unsaid to this individual?
- CSCole Sprouse
I'd probably kick his ... .
- SBSteven Bartlett
Before we get into this episode, just wanted to say thank you, first and foremost, for being part of this community. Um, the team here at The Diary of a CEO is now almost 30 people, and that's literally because you watch and you subscribe and you, um, leave comments and you like the videos that th- this show's been able to grow. And it's the greatest honor of my life to sit here with these incredible people and just selfishly ask some questions that I'm pondering over or worrying about in my life. But this is just the beginning for The Diary of a CEO. We've got big, big plans to scale this show, um, to every corner of the world and to, to, to diversify our guest selection, and that's enabled by you, by a simple thing that you guys do, which is to watch. So if there's one thing you could do to help this show and to help us continue to do what we do, it's just to hit the subscribe button. If you like this show, if you like what we do here, if you watch these episodes, please just hit that subscribe button. Means the world. Let's get on with it.
- 2:28 – 8:53
Being a child actor
- SBSteven Bartlett
Cole.
- CSCole Sprouse
Yes. Dave?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Much of what I do here is I'm... Especially at the start of these conversations, is I'm trying to understand somebody. You know, I, I get to see the finish line. I get to see their achievements, their behaviors, their personality during my research, and I'm always try... You know, this is ultimately why this podcast came to be. On one ha- hand, in the name you hear The Diary of a CEO, and it was really me trying to show that there's this other side of these people, including myself. There's this other side that we don't often talk about.
- CSCole Sprouse
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And on the other hand, just from a very personal perspective, I've come to learn, I'm so interested in like human beings, why they do what they do and what causes them to do what they do at the very core of it.
- CSCole Sprouse
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, what do I need to know about you when... If we zoom back to your, to your earliest years-
- CSCole Sprouse
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to understand the most influential things, moments, influences that caused you to be the complex, inspiring individual you are today?
- CSCole Sprouse
Hmm. I mean, I'm really glad I'm doing this podcast with you at this time in my life, because for the last year and a half, I've really been thinking about questions like this. What, what is it that, that still compels me, uh, into certain professional pursuits or artistic pursuits now? Um, I think when I was younger, it was, uh, it was definitely a financial pressure. There were kind of two kinds of kids, uh, working kids, really. There was the kids that were doing it to put food on the table for mommy and daddy, and then like the thespian children, you know, like, like" Mommy, I want to go into acting," and they would show up and it would be this huge gap between philosophies, um, between like, "Yeah, man, it's a job," and like, "No, this is a, this is a craft. This is"-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- CSCole Sprouse
... "This is an art." Uh, and those kids kind of showed up around 14. And for me, I, I think I had trained a kind of workaholism since I was a child, uh, in order to, one, feel valued by my environment, uh, both immediate family and audience in very many cases, that has stuck with me, a work ethic that has stuck with me now to this day. Like I, I do not feel good when I am not working, and I think a lot of people can say that. Uh, and that's something I've been trying to unpack over the... Over the last year and a half is, what would happen if I just simply stepped away for good and enjoyed my life, which is really the purpose of why we're all here. Um, would I be content with sitting down and fishing and growing my own vegetables and, you know, living sustainably? Or would I get so disenfranchised and bored that I would have to take back to the arts in some way or another? And I think, I think the pressure of my upbringing really compelled me to continue doing what I am today. I cannot live without the arts. I mean, I, I, I cannot live without performance or expression in some kind, because it's truly all I know and have known since I was eight months old.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Since you were eight months old?
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You hold the record for being the guest on this show that started working the earliest.
- CSCole Sprouse
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Tell me, tell me-
- CSCole Sprouse
Well-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh.
- CSCole Sprouse
... look, to be fair, I don't know if we can call it work. I don't, I don't believe I queued into consciousness until about like 10 years ago. Um, when you're a baby, you have that kind of lantern consciousness where only, you know, whatever exists is only in your immediate purview. And then as you age, you know, when you start to become less present, you're like, "Wow, I'm an adult and I feel like shit all the time." Um, so I, I don't know about if I, I perceived it as work, but it certainly infused within me a kind of work ethic as I have aged. Um, but yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It, it established a relationship with work.
- CSCole Sprouse
Mm-hmm. It did. I mean, it started for me financially. Uh, single mom, two twin boys, put food on the table. She is still able to be a mother while we can still pursue a sort of, uh, improvement of our lifestyle. And in very many ways she was living vicariously through the success of her children. But I think, uh, it's certainly developed a relationship to, uh, professionalism much earlier than almost anyone else I know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were you p- were you ... You used the word pushed earlier.
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were you pushed into acting, in your view?
- CSCole Sprouse
Well, I didn't ... You know, h- I would hardly call it pushing because I was eight months old. I don't even think I w- I knew, you know. I was on screen. I don't remember much of, like, the early, early, the diaper commercials and things like that. So the choice never really existed. I was there. That's it. There w-
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do you, how do you feel about that?
- CSCole Sprouse
I think gratefulness and ungratefulness can exist simultaneously. And I, I am tremendously grateful of the financial stability I have acquired now as a 30-year-old and being able to say, "Yeah. I'm okay now." Um, I think in many ways I traded sort of the lantern consciousness of youth and sort of the carefree presented-ness of youth for financial stability that I would come to appreciate as an older man. But, um, I don't regret too much. I don't. I, I think if I were to sit here and talk about regretting my, my childhood within the industry, I think that would be silly. It toughened the hell out of both my brother and I and many kids that go through that same thing. Um, but I'm grateful, I'm grateful for the financial stability of it. Yeah. And I also am grateful to have done it in a time where you could get your Gladwell 10,000 hours in anonymously. You know, if you did a crappy direct-to-DVD movie, Just for Kicks, I'm looking at you for anyone who knows this, uh, if you did your crappy soccer movie, it would go to the back of Blockbuster and no one would see it. Now, with social media, I mean, there's no way that you can, that you can cut your teeth in silence anymore. Everyone sees your portfolio globally.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- CSCole Sprouse
And you're expected to put it on display. I find it, you know ... I, I, I feel quite afraid for young actors now who have to hone their craft over time, but do it to a global audience. That sucks.
- 8:53 – 21:09
Your mother
- SBSteven Bartlett
you mentioned single mother.
- CSCole Sprouse
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I am ... As I read through your story, I saw a ton of similarities between the way you described your relationship with your, with your mother.
- CSCole Sprouse
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the way that I often describe the relationship still to this day with my mother.
- CSCole Sprouse
Hm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can you tell me about both your, your mother and your father and the journey you kind of went on? And I know at five years old, roughly, they divorced.
- CSCole Sprouse
Sure. I, I, I don't remember the exact timeline of divorce. Um, but I remember only having one memory of them being together, uh, when I was very, very young. And then from that point on, my father was in Switzerland and my mother was in LA. He would eventually move out to LA in order to try and repair the family. Uh, but my mother was, um, still is, uh, the kind of tortured artist type. She struggled with, uh, in very many ways, her place in the world. She, she ... I think she found a tremendous amount of self-identity through motherhood and tried to turn it into a profitable business at the same time, which for identical twin boys going into acting is sort of economic loophole through labor laws that can be incredibly profitable. Um, so that's what she did. And as I've thought about it, it seemed like to me it made a lot of financial sense to her to put us into acting. It made ... I think it satisfied some sort of narcissism that she probably had in order to be recognized as this sort of artistic success. Uh, she was a wonderful painter. Um, so she always wanted sort of artistic legitimacy and validation. But as time went on, uh, I think the entertainment industry just kind of broke her. You know, this, this, this industry in very many ways, it encourages the worst qualities of you as a person. Um, narcissism, selfishness, greed, a lot of these things that we have come to known as practically cardinal sins. Um, it's one of those things that, uh, encouraged a kind of selfishness that was, uh, directly opposed to the very fundamental idea of motherhood. And as I grew older, in my case, the court had to step in and rend my brother and I towards our father, who is an incredible guy. Um, but that selfishness is something that the legal system also observed, and, uh, said that she was unfit. And I think as I've aged and I've looked back on a lot of, um, the circumstances of that entire environment, I see a person that grapples with mental illness, drug abuse, um, but primarily narcissism. A wicked narcissism. The inability to, to perceive anything outside your own perspective would probably be the biggest sickness I see. And, uh ...That just doesn't work with being a mother. That just doesn't work with being in a family, in general. You know, wh- when, when it rains, it rains on everyone's roofs. That's how it goes. It takes a village, man. And selfishness that is encouraged very much, like I said, from the industry, just doesn't really work. Doesn't really work for being a mother.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's easy to look at this, that situation objectively and go, "Okay, just don't speak to them," but this is your mother.
- CSCole Sprouse
Of course. Yeah, that's something I've dealt with a lot too.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's my question, which is like, how do you... How have you tried to separate the two? There's so many people listening to this right now who have a member of their family that i- is a toxic influence in whatever way-
- CSCole Sprouse
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and they struggle with this idea that-
- CSCole Sprouse
Yep, it's a big one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, right? Like, because they're blood, I have to persist with the relationship. I have to tolerate it. Whereas, if this was someone who was... I just met on the street or in school, I would fucking... I would-
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I would chop off-
- CSCole Sprouse
Later.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the relationship straightaway, right?
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How have you dealt with, with the duality of both it being blood but also it being unacceptable behavior?
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah, it's a great question. Um, (clears throat) I don't think you ever fully reconcile it. I think it's the difference between this, like, kind of immortal abstract connection to someone, this thing that we call love, this, this energy, not to sound too California, you know? But this, this, this sort of immortal connection between a mother and a child, or a father and a son, or, or whatever it is, um, and how do you distinguish that, uh, from anyone else who you would immediately cut off? And I think for me, I- I've recently, you know, I've recently arrived at the philosophy that almost everything is, is some sort of lesson that we must take. And I think lessons like this, when it comes to parents, when it comes to people who are supposed to be these sort of, um, immortal, almost godlike figures in, in your life, especially during your youth, like, that is the greatest lesson for your humanity that you can acquire. You know? The distinction between love and care, and abandonment, and pain as you grow. Uh, I really... I wouldn't call myself a religious man, but I, I, I do believe that everyone is put here in your life to have these interactions with you for some kind of reason. And I know that sounds like fatedness, which can be, you know, we'll leave that for another podcast. But, um, I think it's, uh, I think it's a lesson that you have to learn, and it's all in a way reflecting back and carving you into the person that you're supposed to be. I also think it tests your patience and your love. And the people that really persist and continuously try and find the love after all the pain, consistently re-arrive to the care and the connection and the love even though you've been, you know, deeply wounded by the ones who are supposed to be at your round table, those are the strongest individuals, in my opinion, you know. If you can, if you can consistently on the other, come to the other side of that conversation and go, "I will still choose to care. I will still choose to love," um, that speaks a lot about you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
At some point, you have to put your love for yourself-
- CSCole Sprouse
Of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... first. It's the old oxygen mask analogy. Your journey with, with your mother-
- CSCole Sprouse
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you're very young, you don't really know what's going on.
- CSCole Sprouse
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're acting, you're doing these things. At some point in your adolescence or beyond, you figure out that this is not normal behavior.
- CSCole Sprouse
Mm.
- 21:09 – 25:04
What is your validation?
- SBSteven Bartlett
sticking, sticking around with me-
- CSCole Sprouse
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... what stuck around with you?
- CSCole Sprouse
Um, the workaholism has definitely stuck with me. Uh, I need validation a lot. Uh, I think that's a pretty common, uh, thing for most artists just to have. Um, but I am the byproduct of, the byproduct of, um, moments of incredible narcissism and moments of severe self-loathing. And right in the middle is when I do my best work (laughs) . Um, but a lot of that operation and the fluctuation between those two things, uh, is determined by people going, "Goddamn, you're good."
- SBSteven Bartlett
What if they say- what if they invalidate?
- CSCole Sprouse
What if they say, "Goddamn, you suck"? I spiral, of course, but I don't let it hang on me. I try not to let it hang on me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What does the spiral look like?
- CSCole Sprouse
Um, "Man, maybe I should just run away and, and not do this and, you know, get some chickens and raise, you know, get some eggs and, um, live off the grid," and, and whatever it is. Um, it also manifests as the inability to sort of say your desires out loud for fear of, of looking like a fool. Um, I think LA does that too, because I think vulnerability is just something that we don't really encourage here in Los Angeles.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why is that?
- CSCole Sprouse
Um, because it's not cool, but it's not cool, uh, to Angelinos because someone that is cool hasn't said it like that before.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ah.
- CSCole Sprouse
Do you know what I'm saying? It's a lot of imposter syndrome in Los Angeles. And so, you know, authenticity and vulnerability are not really encouraged traits. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Before you arrived, I was saying to my team-
- CSCole Sprouse
Go ahead.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was like, I watch all these interviews with people like yourself from LA that's, uh, stars, ac- actors. And I go, no one's ever asked them an interesting question, it seems.
- CSCole Sprouse
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And genuinely, that's how-
- CSCole Sprouse
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... before you walked in, this is what I was saying. I was like, 'cause, 'cause you know, Lucy Hale was the same.
- CSCole Sprouse
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
She goes, "Oh, this is the first time I've had a deep conversation." And I'm like, "Why?" And then I mimicked what interviewers are like here. I was like, "Hey," uh-
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... "where'd you get your shoes?" (laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then you're like, my, you know-
- CSCole Sprouse
"So can you speak to your twin in your mind?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah, of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But like who, who the fuck wants to talk about that? Do people actually, you know?
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, because it's safe.
- 25:04 – 25:59
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- SBSteven Bartlett
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- 25:59 – 40:50
Acting career
- SBSteven Bartlett
events. Your journey with your relationship with acting-
- CSCole Sprouse
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and the entertainment industry-
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it's been a journey.
- CSCole Sprouse
Oh, for sure, man.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can you give me kind of like, a timeline of that journey and how you've, um, felt through the process-
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah. (sighs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... with your relationship with acting?
- CSCole Sprouse
Absolutely. Um, started at eight months old.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(sighs) When you say that, it still baffles my mind. (laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
Uh, diaper commercials, things like that. Did commercials. Um, worked on a sitcom for a bit. Uh, still wasn't really fully conscious. Uh, we were still doing the baby acting thing. Uh, did a sitcom called Grace Under Fire, a couple other little TV spots here and there, identical twins switching places, blah, blah, blah. Then we booked Big Daddy with Adam Sandler when we were around six, um, and that was like, the big thing at the time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
This point about the use of twins in acting-
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... some people might not understand the context, they can just-
- CSCole Sprouse
Oh, okay. You'd like me to explain? Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, just explain for those-
- CSCole Sprouse
Children can only work a certain amount of hours, which is a very strange thing to say out loud. Um, "In the button factory, in the coal mines, we can only work for two hours a day." Uh, no, but we can only work for a certain amount of hours, um, and so if you have two twins that look identical to each other that people can't perceive as anything other than the same character, you double the amount of hours you can work. Uh, which is an incredible economic loophole for a lot of young actors, 'cause-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like hitting the jackpot, as a mother.
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah, yeah. Of course. Of course. It was great. Work the system, baby. But the problem is (laughs) when you start at least from that philosophy and you go into an art, you know, um, we've commodified almost all of the arts that exist. But when you enter into a form of expression in a professionalized or, or work dynamic, it's hard to see that as a pursuit of passion.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- CSCole Sprouse
So, my journey through acting over time has been one of trying to balance art and commerce in a way, one for the money, two for the show sort of thing, where I need to be reminded consistently to myself that I love this thing. Do you know what I'm saying? Making my money, becoming financially stable, getting financially stable, taking jobs that are, uh, that aren't paying as much, but doing cool projects, and making yourself feel more in love with the discipline. And I think, you know, this is, this is a particular approach that has to come from a certain socioeconomic background. If you are, you know, this nepo baby conversation's been huge out here in LA. I don't know how, how big it's been out in the UK, but, um, if you come from a financially stable background, and you can see it with any actor that has a really stellar resume, where you're like, "God, you've picked great movie after great movie after great movie. You've been a part of all these really cool projects," well, they probably had a lot of financial stability because those projects pay you fucking nothing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
Right? So, if you have the sort of patron that is allowing your freedom of expression to take these artistic projects and reinvigorate this passion for you, even in the face of commodification of an expression, then you can, uh, you can have a really stellar career. But if you also have to make money alongside it, you're probably not gonna take the super cool jobs. You gotta, you know, you gotta sell drinkable yogurt, uh, for a little bit in order to go to college. You know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah. Th- this is the balance between art and commerce that a lot of people don't understand. In almost every other art, at least in photography, this is a great example, no one looks at someone doing a commercial gig and then going back to the editorial world and going, "Why would they do that commercial gig?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
"That's so strange." But in acting, they do. There's a huge division between those two people, massive.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Big Daddy.
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah.
- 40:50 – 45:24
Your mental health
- SBSteven Bartlett
in reality?
- CSCole Sprouse
Oh, sure. I'll paint an image of it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're very good at painting images with your words, by the way.
- CSCole Sprouse
Oh, thank you. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's very... You're enjoyable to listen to.
- CSCole Sprouse
You know what?
- SBSteven Bartlett
More smoke
- CSCole Sprouse
... my social anxiety feels a lot like sitting in a sauna when it's just a bit too hot, like the sauna right before you have to get out. You know what I mean? It's, it's like this warm sort of blanketing feeling, but it's not warm. It's fucking hot. It's, but it's a blanket over me, for sure, and it, it, it's this kind of y- For me, anxiety's really present. Even though I'm thinking about future possibility or past, um, past actions that I have made, it is a consistent, um, "I'm living in this, I'm living in this, I'm living in this, I'm living in this, I'm living in this," and so in that way, it's almost blanketed over me. Um, and what I'll do for that anxiety is, is I will activate my five senses. What do I see? What do I smell? What can I hear? Can I taste anything? What do I feel on my skin? And it immediately grounds me in the present. These things are grounding mechanisms that I really enjoy when I start to feel social anxiety.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you learned that somewhere?
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah, I think I did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(sighs) Where'd you, where did you learn that?
- CSCole Sprouse
Um, well, I did, uh, I went to therapy. I've had, I've gone to therapy off and on my whole life. Um, but he was a wonderful man up in Vancouver that taught me those sort of grounding techniques. And he's right, but I mean, it does, you know, it can be a therapist. It can be a father figure. It can be anyone that teaches you. Essentially, the root of it is be present, ground yourself in the present.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's such a great tool.
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, you know, all the Eastern philosophers and the Buddhists were trying to tell you to do this shit the whole time. Meditate. Ground yourself in the present. You know, grounding yourself in the present is the greatest enemy of anxiety.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What other tools have you learned from therapy? I feel like I can, uh, I can learn a lot from you without having to pay the- the- the therapist. Sorry. (laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
Sure. Well, that's flattering.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
Um, yeah, I try not to talk too much about mental health just in general, um, because everyone has an incredibly personal relationship to it. And I feel like there's a lot of armchair experts on the internet right now acting like, you know, or diagnosing people or doing stuff like that, which I find in- I, uh, that is so atrocious, I can't believe people even do that. Um, and I think the conversation abou- around mental health, unless it's being done by truly a trained professional, is probably not the greatest thing to listen to. So with that disclaimer-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
... I will say, um, whenever I'm feeling heightened emotionally, I will take a break from whatever I am doing. I will truly walk away from whatever I am doing. I will tell, if it is an argument with someone, I will go, "Hey, right now I'm feeling some heightened emotion. If you don't mind, let's pick up this conversation in about 20 minutes." Give yourself time. You know, I, uh, I try to approach everything with a kind of logos that- that, you know, allows me to think more clearly and calmly about what I do. Um, which can be off-putting to some people, uh, because not a lot of people like being met, uh, with logos when they're heightened emotionally, or being met with solutions when they're just trying to vent.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- CSCole Sprouse
Um, it's one of the first things you learn when you're in a serious relationship.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
Uh, especially as a guy. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
For su- for sure, 'cause most, a lot- a lot of us are solution-based people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
You know, um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I can relate.
- CSCole Sprouse
But I'll take a break. That's the be- that's honestly the most helpful thing I've done. I've, I'll also try and remind myself of, you know, grounding myself in the senses, or I will, uh, I'll remind myself that, one, you're not the only person that's ever gone through anxiety or will ever go through anxiety, and two, um, the problem as you perceive it, the- the vastness of the problem as you perceive it, is not the way other people perceive it.
- 45:24 – 57:09
Love & Relationships
- CSCole Sprouse
- SBSteven Bartlett
... personally, in relationships?
- CSCole Sprouse
Well, that's a great question, and one I'm far more qualified to answer now than I was even two years, three years ago. Um, I can honest to God say that I did not love myself enough as a younger man, especially my mid to late 20s. For sure did not love myself enough, did not respect my own boundaries.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What did that look like?
- CSCole Sprouse
Um, that looked like rolling over in the face of a lot of adversity, especially when it came to romantic relationships. Um, I was a people pleaser. I- I was a people pleaser professionally, I was a people pleaser, uh, romantically. I was practically a fucking nurse to whoever needed my help in very many ways, likely as a byproduct of my upbringing. But, um, what that meant was oftentimes crossing my own boundaries as an attempt to make others feel better. And as I've gotten older, I've become more okay with, uh, turning people off, which is all right. You know, you're going to polarize individuals. You are going to get along with certain people and not get along with other people. That's totally okay. And I think as I've aged, I've tried to, um, I've tried to remind myself, "Yeah, that was an awkward interaction, that was a bad interaction with someone, but you're gonna have those, man. That's okay. Move on." And as I've loved myself now, and thankfully I'm, uh, you know, I'm in a relationship right now with a woman who's so emotionally understanding and- and just the best. And, you know, it helps when others can be like, "Yeah, dude," encourage you in the right direction and be like, "Yeah, it's okay." Like, we're, like, 'cause I will, I know myself, I will fall back on like, "Are you all right?" Like, "Is everything okay?" Like, like trying to control a situation through making sure everyone is happy, you know? But it's not a, you know, it's not a fucking video game. You can't-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
... get, like, the best solution where everyone is okay. Sometimes you're gonna really have to polarize some people, and tha- and that's all right. My only boundaries, I would say, uh, when it comes to, when it comes to my professional career or otherwise, um, I really don't like condescension. So, like, if I feel condescension in any sort of way, if I see other people being condescending to others, if- if- if I can sense a- a kind of pretentiousness or condescension, that's usually something that will either take me to leave the room or confront another person about it and be like, "Hey, why'd you- why'd you do that?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
What has, um, that relationship you described, what has love taught you about yourself?
- CSCole Sprouse
Oh, so much, man. I've had the pleasure of being in love three times. The pleasure. Um, I've had f- I'd say three big relationships in my life, three girlfriends in my life. Um, I mean, my first one when I was, like, a kid, but that was just kind of puppy love stuff. And then I had one in college. Um, I dated a co-star on Riverdale. Um, and now I'm- I'm in love again. And every time, it has been (sighs) pretty distinct. I think maybe the first two a-... college and my last girlfriend were far more similar because of me, uh, because I was still approaching it the same way. Um, and then I did a lot of self-work, and I fell in love again, um, thankfully. And it has taught me a lot. Like I mentioned, I was a people pleaser. I was deathly afraid of being perceived as anything other than perfect for a long time, and so I would roll over quite a bit in order to make sure that... As long as they were happy, that's what love is, you know, is this sort of consistent happiness. Um, and I was also actively suppressing my emotions and, like, not really discussing what I actually felt about a situation because I was afraid of retaliation in very many ways. Um, I was afraid. Uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where did that come from?
- CSCole Sprouse
Oh, I mean, certainly my youth. Certainly my youth.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your youth?
- CSCole Sprouse
I think growing up in, you know, building an entire life and business model off of the validation of other people certainly made me, um, open to it. But I also think the first relationship I ever had with, with a female figure, which is the mother figure in everyone's life, was an incredibly tenuous and fractured relationship with, with, um, with a, a tortured individual, which made me go, "I can fix things. Don't worry, I got it." You know? "D- No, you're all good. It's okay." Um, and I brought that in. I brought that in a lot. While-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were you trying to make her happy, your mother?
- CSCole Sprouse
Oh, of course. Yeah, I think so. When I was younger especially, but even now as an, an adult, you know? I, uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Even, even now?
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah, yeah. Of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You don't speak to your, to your mother anymore?
- CSCole Sprouse
I don't. I don't. But, um, she put me on this path. And there was once a woman who was very clear-headed and who had a beautiful vision of the kind of people my brother and I could be, and in very many ways I honor the dream she once had, so that if she were lucid enough, um, and came back and saw what I had become, she would go, "Man, I was right." And in that way, it would validate the entire life of pain and trauma that she has gone through.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are you s- Are you sad about where your relationship is with her?
- CSCole Sprouse
Of course. Everyone is. Everyone is sad about something that could... I mean, unless you're a sociopath. Um, when something beautiful and, and lovely goes rotten, it can be a very sad thing. Um, and it does make me sad, but it's also life. And that's the lesson that I've had to learn from it, is that, you know, that sadness is okay. It means I'm human. It means I loved something outside of myself in a, in a way that was so beautiful and so boundless that, that it makes me feel one of the strongest, most eternal of human emotions, which is sadness, like real sadness. And that's okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you, do you... Does part of you, like, hold out? And this is kind of speaking from my experience as well.
- CSCole Sprouse
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Does part of you kind of hold out for things to just... (fingers snap)
- CSCole Sprouse
Get better or go completely wrong?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Get better.
- CSCole Sprouse
No, I don't do that anymore.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about the opposite? You seemed more compelled by the opposite outcome, go completely wrong.
- CSCole Sprouse
Um, I mean, I'm sure you've reconciled this as well, but there's a part of you that goes, "Oh, what if this is my last communication with an individual?" You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 57:09 – 1:20:51
Conversation Cards
- SBSteven Bartlett
you've just des- described, the type of person that likes deep conversations is very much the type of people that listen to The Diary of a CEO. And we have a closing tradition on this podcast where, where guests write a question in the diary for the next guest. They never get to see who they're writing it for.
- CSCole Sprouse
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, because we know that the type of person that listens to this is b- by clear, um, linkage ... terrible use of words, the type of person that likes deep conversations, we wanted to take all of the questions out of this diary-
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that have, uh, been written into them, and allow people to play-
- CSCole Sprouse
Cool.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... at dinner parties-
- CSCole Sprouse
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... The Diary of a CEO, which is they can ask their friends deep conversations that have been written into this book. You also get to see who wrote the qu- the, the question for the first time.
- CSCole Sprouse
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I wanna play with you-
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah, please.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... right now.
- CSCole Sprouse
Ask me some questions.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I am, I took some cards out. There's about 100 cards in total, but I took the ones that I thought were the biggest stitch-ups. (laughs)
- CSCole Sprouse
Cool, man. That's a great idea. I love that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, what I'm gonna do, I will also answer one-
- CSCole Sprouse
Yup.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... but I'm gonna lay them out here.
- CSCole Sprouse
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You pick one that you wanna answer, whichever one feels right for you, and then I'll pick one as well, and I'll answer it. Well, we'll go through the, all of them. So, we'll pick one at a time.
- CSCole Sprouse
One. Can I, and I pick one?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay, I'll pick one. So, so you, you answer that one.
- CSCole Sprouse
I answer this one?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- CSCole Sprouse
This is by Tim Grover. This is, "What is your dark side?" Um, I think the dark side of myself is definitely the narcissistic side of myself that can come out when I am feeling super proud of something that I do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- CSCole Sprouse
And I will oftentimes try to humble that. It'll get me seeking decadence. It'll get me seeking external stimulation from my environment and yearning for that, which is, you know, what every stoic philosopher would be like, "Dude, shut up." Um, and I, I really relate to that. I, I think my worst side is the side that is seeking validation from other people, um, rather than understanding and placing myself in my environment and going, "Wow, I'm so privileged to have what I have, and where I'm at." And I believe that's the lifestyle.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What a beautiful answer.
- CSCole Sprouse
Yeah. So please, what you got?
Episode duration: 1:26:50
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