Mike & Carol Dowd: How A Cop Began Taxing Crack Dealers

Steven Bartlett 0:00 (intense music) I've never heard a story like this in my life. (sighs) A story of drug trafficking, bribery, kidnapping, and even murder, which earned you the nickname of America's dirtiest cop, and I want to know everything.

Mike Dowd 0:11 Okay. But let's just be clear, if you choose to have a conversation with me about this, you're gonna hear things that you won't like.

Steven Bartlett 0:18 Jesus Christ. (breathes quavily)

Mike Dowd 0:22 Let me just say this, being a New York cop was the greatest job in the world, but it's not built for somebody to come in and be the knight in shining armor. You're working minimal wage, civilians are against you, and you're directly told not to make drug arrests.

Steven Bartlett 0:34 Why?

Mike Dowd 0:35 Well, because they got a budget to manage, and the average amount of overtime for one crack arrest was 18 hours. So, that leads to the streets becoming unwieldy. So what happens is a guy like me, who's entrepreneurial spirit shows up and says, "There's a way to control this. I can't arrest them, so I tax them."

Steven Bartlett 0:52 And that escalated?

Mike Dowd 0:53 Greed is powerful, bro. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 0:55 But what happens then?

Mike Dowd 0:56 You become God. I was making more than the president of the United States by protecting one of the largest drug trafficking organizations in New York. But I was losing control, and I became the face of New York City's corruption problem. People wanted me dead.

Steven Bartlett 1:07 And then in 1992, you were arrested and you admitted to hundreds of crimes. But what about your family at this point?

Mike Dowd 1:13 You know, that was tough. (instrumental music plays) They're really special people.

Steven Bartlett 1:18 Mike, we spoke to your parents. Do you want to see what they said?

Carol Dowd 1:23 I'm Carol Dowd, and, uh, I'm Michael Dowd's mother.

Steven Bartlett 1:33 This has always blown my mind a little bit, 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. So could I ask you for a favor before we start? If you like this show, and you like what we do here, and you wanna support us, the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is, if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much. (funky music)

Steven Bartlett 2:05 Mike, when people do interviews with you, they often describe you as New York's dirtiest cop.

Mike Dowd 2:10 Right.

Steven Bartlett 2:11 And I watched that over and over again in your interviews, and I wondered, as I watched people calling you New York's dirtiest cop, how that makes you feel?

Mike Dowd 2:19 (laughs) Not good. Yeah, and that's a touchy subject, and, and, and, and, but I accept it, and I've turned it, uh, into something where I'm able to may- maybe ch- chaperone an audience because of it. But it's not nice to hear that... More importantly, it's not nice for your parents to hear something like that. And thank God they're still alive, but, you know, it's not the happy day when your mother says, sees your name on the front page of the newspaper, I'll tell you that, and f- for nothing good,

Mike Dowd 2:50 you know?

Steven Bartlett 2:51 And how many crimes did you commit while you were a New York cop?

Mike Dowd 2:55 So, it may have been thousands, because every time I did something that was inappropriate... So you gotta step back for a second. Every time a police officer puts on his badge and, and swears that oath and, and takes the job on, he's basically taking a risk on everything he does that could end him up in jail. Everything. And that's really a very difficult position to be in. Everything you do legitimately can end you up being sanctioned or arrested.

Steven Bartlett 3:26 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 3:26 So I would suggest basically anything I did, or any interaction I did, could have been considered s- with some kind of criminal intent.

Steven Bartlett 3:34 And still on the top line, just painting the picture here, what are the... Before we get into the detail, what are the variety of crimes that you committed as a New York police officer?

Mike Dowd 3:44 So, every time you take something from somebody, money, cash, drugs, um, personal property, let's say, it's basically a robbery, basically. Because you have a gun on your hip-

Steven Bartlett 3:57 Yeah.

Mike Dowd 3:57 ... and you're using a power, a position of power. So you would start with robbery, extortion, burglary, when you went into someone's home and came out with, uh, a product. I mean, I've taken tapes from... You know,

Mike Dowd 4:09 back in the day, you know, those VCR tapes, they were, there was a lot of good stuff in some VCR tapes.

Steven Bartlett 4:14 (laughs)

Mike Dowd 4:14 I mean we can get a little humorous here, but the reality was, you know, you know some guy's porn collection might be missing. I mean, it just, these are the, these are the things that you ran into. Their cash, their gold coins, you know, their, whatever was... When someone's dead, it's really hard for them to complain about what's missing. So and, you know, it's ironic, it's stupid, and it's debauchery at the same time. So you, you cross all the, you cross all the lines of decorum when you do something like that.

Steven Bartlett 4:37 Did you steal someone's porn collection?

Mike Dowd 4:39 Uh, maybe. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 4:41 Really?

Mike Dowd 4:41 It could have been.

Steven Bartlett 4:43 (laughs)

Mike Dowd 4:43 But they, they were dead.

Steven Bartlett 4:45 They were dead?

Mike Dowd 4:46 They were dead. They couldn't use it anymore. I mean, they were smoking crack, okay? So I'm in the 94th Precinct in Brooklyn now, which is Williamsburg, where you say was a lovely place, and it was. It was becoming lovely when we were there. They started opening up some studios. We got a call for a dead on arrival, you know, uh, uh, someone was murdered. So we, we show up, and the guy's sitting in his couch with a knife in his side. I mean, you, you walk into this, uh, home, and there's a guy on his couch like this, sitting there with a hole in his side, with the knife still in it. He's bled out. And the place looked like there was a party that didn't stop. So while there, I'm sitting around waiting and waiting for the boss to show up and the squad to show up, the detective squad to show up. And I'm looking around, rummaging a little bit, see what, see... Like looking for the evidence of the, of the crime scene. And sure enough, I hit the button on the VCR and there's the porns. They've got the porn on the fucking TV. (laughs) So I'm saying, "Okay, this, he's dead, there's crack, uh, evidence of..." There was no crack there, by the way. It was all gone. (laughs) The, no one leaves crack behind. The cigarette smokes were pi- you know, the ashes were piled out of the, out of the ashtrays, and there's beer bottles everywhere. So it's July, it's 100 degrees, and this apartment has no air conditioning in it. So what does any self-respecting 20-something-year-old man want at this point? Not the porn per se, but-... but the beer, right? So I'm looking around, every beer bottle's empty. And right below the apartment is a bodega, right below it. Like, upstairs is the h- is the dead guy, and downstairs is the bodega. So we go downstairs and we tell the guy, "Listen, we're gonna be upstairs for a couple hours." He hands us a six-pack of Coors Light. (laughs) You can't make this story up. We walk in, me and my partner, Tom, and in comes the detective. We each have a beer, we're sitting there bullshitting, waiting for the boss to show up. Boss walks in. She looks around. She goes, "I want every beer bottle in here printed," she says, "and in the refrigerator." Now, I just put the fucking six-pack (laughs) in the refrigerator (laughs) when she walked in. So I'm going ... Now, picture this. They know I'm corrupt, okay? But they can't prove it. I'm on what you would call secret probation, even though I'm not on probation. They're watching me like a hawk.

Steven Bartlett 7:05 Yeah.

Mike Dowd 7:05 Now I got a detective who's looking at me like, "We just had a beer. The f- our fucking fingerprints (laughs) are inside the refrigerator." And he's scared. I'm not. I mean, I'm gonna take a hit, I guess, right? (laughs) So I go, "Sarge." (laughs) She goes, she goes, "What?" "In that refrigerator, there's a six-pack of Coors Light, and my fingerprints are on the bottles in the, in, in the refrigerator." She looks at me (laughs) and she goes, (sighs) "Of course it's you."

Steven Bartlett 7:41 (laughs)

Mike Dowd 7:42 She goes, "Of all the people in this fucking police department, it would be your fingerprints inside the refrigerator, on a Coors Light bottle, at a homicide scene. And there's only four homicides in this precinct this year, and you've been on three of them."

Steven Bartlett 7:57 Oh, Jesus.

Mike Dowd 7:57 "You've been at the scene of three of them." (laughs) So I go, "Yeah, doesn't look too good, does it, Sarge?" She goes, "I'm gonna go downstairs. (laughs) I'm gonna go to my car, and I'm gonna make a phone call, whatever I gotta do." I says ... She said, "Get rid of that. And don't do it again." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 8:14 (laughs) Did you steal the porn collection?

Mike Dowd 8:16 Yes. (laughs) It was already in the car. Oh, Jesus.

Steven Bartlett 8:18 It was already in the car?

Mike Dowd 8:18 I already had it (laughs) in the car by then. (laughs) I mean, that's what he had, a knife in his belly and a porn collection.

Steven Bartlett 8:25 You didn't steal the knife?

Mike Dowd 8:27 No, I couldn't. It was evidence.

Steven Bartlett 8:28 But you put his porn collection in your car?

Mike Dowd 8:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:32 Wow. And you do originally train to become an accountant and drop out because

Steven Bartlett 8:36 of a woman, right?

Mike Dowd 8:37 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 8:37 And you wanted to follow her, so you end up joining the police academy in 1982-

Mike Dowd 8:41 Right.

Steven Bartlett 8:41 ... at 21 years old.

Mike Dowd 8:42 Right.

Steven Bartlett 8:43 And when you join the police academy, did you do it because you wanted to be a police officer and because you wanted to serve and defend?

Mike Dowd 8:51 No. That's not why I joined.

Steven Bartlett 8:54 Why did you join?

Mike Dowd 8:54 I joined because I wanted

Mike Dowd 8:55 a job.

Steven Bartlett 8:56 Because you wanted a job? And so when you stood there and took that oath-

Mike Dowd 8:59 Right.

Steven Bartlett 9:00 ... did you mean it?

Mike Dowd 9:02 I w- You know, (sighs) no. I, I mean, I guess, I guess s- so, so, so the answer to ... So if you say no, I mean, that means that y- you have no concern or care. So it was an immature yes.

Steven Bartlett 9:13 So you take that oath. You don't really mean it?

Mike Dowd 9:16 (sighs) Uh, I, I'm, I'm embarrassed if I say ... I, I, I wanna be truthful, 'cause I don't, I don't like to lie. Uh, I felt pride when I said it. Is that-

Steven Bartlett 9:25 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 9:26 Th- th- so I, I felt f- I felt full of pride when I said it.

Steven Bartlett 9:29 And as part of your training to become a police officer, you do some integrity training.

Mike Dowd 9:33 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 9:33 Some, like, ethics training-

Mike Dowd 9:34 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 9:34 ... to make sure that police officers are, like, straight and narrow and understand ethics.

Mike Dowd 9:38 So one of the things that I would suggest on that statement, though, that, that, that whole, uh, genre, is it, it wasn't necessarily ... W- we weren't necessarily trained on integrity or, or, uh, ethics. We were trained on this is what would happen to you if ... "Don't take $5 from a, a motorist, or $50 from a motorist, because that will lead to, one, you being arrested and being all over the news, and then all the cops are gonna hate you." Like, it was never really explained to you, as a student in an academy, the depth of the lack of integrity and what you're actually affecting.

Steven Bartlett 10:15 Okay. But, like, the fundamental issue, if we don't trust law enforcement and the downstream consequences.

Mike Dowd 10:19 Thank you. Thank you for saying it that way. Yes, because it, it, it destroys the very fabric of what people trust in law enforcement. Because when you need help, you gotta call somebody, and the person that shows up has to be trustworthy. Now, I would argue because I robbed money from drug dealers and even their drugs, you can still trust me. Right? (laughs) That's what I would argue. Because if you're not doing those things, essentially-

Steven Bartlett 10:44 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 10:45 ... you're safe with me, and I will give you the best police service that you ever asked for and probably go above and beyond to help you.

Steven Bartlett 10:51 There was

Steven Bartlett 10:52 some kind of comment made at the end of your training by an internal affairs academy instructor, which basically said, "To be successful as a cop, don't follow these rules, the ethics rules that you were just given."

Mike Dowd 11:05 So, yes. So that wasn't the internal affairs officer that said that. That would be your academy instructor.

Steven Bartlett 11:11 Okay.

Mike Dowd 11:11 Yeah. Uh, ironic. Uh, he said to me, us in the academy class, "If you live by the rules that these guys espouse, internal affairs, you'll never make, uh, a successful cop. Just cover your ass." That would be his, that was his words. "Just cover your ass." And I-

Steven Bartlett 11:29 What, what do they mean by that? Always have a reason, always have an excuse?

Mike Dowd 11:31 They basically ... You, yeah, you hit it on the head. Like, so it's a bas- ... And, and have ... If, if you have a partner, be on the same page. So let's say something was handled inappropriately. Maybe there was some excessive force used, which I'm not fond of and nor am I in favor of. But there may be times where you might've given a guy an extra elbow. It happens.

Steven Bartlett 11:51 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 11:52 You know, you're mad. You, you spit in my face. I put the cuffs on you, I give you a shock. Eh, it ha- ... Doesn't ... Do you hit the door on the way in? Sometimes. So as long as your partner and you have the story straight, you can pretty much, without these cameras today, get away with most things that are not unreasonable.

Steven Bartlett 12:11 ... and the police all kind of agree that they won't snitch on each other?

Mike Dowd 12:16 That's general, the general rule.

Steven Bartlett 12:18 And it's called, I read this term, the blue wall of silence.

Mike Dowd 12:21 Yes. Right. So, let's just be clear. The first person that's gonna snitch on you is gonna be a cop, okay? However, more chances than not, they try not to, and that's just the facts. Because what cop wants to go out on patrol knowing that if something goes down and it goes a little sideways from where it's supposed to go... Let's say you and I were working together, and you just told on me last week, and now someone's pummeling you to death in the street-

Steven Bartlett 12:53 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 12:54 ... I have a chance to help you, or I can call for backup and wait, you know? So, you don't want that relationship with me, right? I mean, w- we're trying to get home tonight.

Steven Bartlett 13:03 Yeah.

Mike Dowd 13:04 So, it really puts people in a very precarious position.

Steven Bartlett 13:07 Because you need those other cops for your own personal survival, so-

Mike Dowd 13:10 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 13:11 ... so you don't wanna be snitching on other cops.

Mike Dowd 13:13 Yeah. Uh. It's, you know, I mean, it's really not built... That position in this society is not built for somebody to come in and be the knight in shining armor and say, "Listen, Officer Dowd, that was not appropriate. I'm gonna have to report you right now." Before he goes to report me, I'm gonna either bludgeon him to death, because now he's taking my livelihood away. He's taking the food off the table of my family. Y- y- you don't look at it as, like, you're getting a guy in trouble. You're looking at you're taking a career, a livelihood, i- incarceration. I mean, these are the things that can happen. Like I said, the minute you put that badge on, I didn't skip to this, is the minute that the job and the... is looking to take something from you. Like, think about that. A mechanic goes to work and they say, "Can you get six cars done today?" "I'll try." "You got six, it is a bonus for you at the end of the day." A cop goes to work and they're looking to screw him the whole time.

Steven Bartlett 14:07 Who's looking to screw him?

Mike Dowd 14:08 The department and the civilians. "I didn't like the way he handled me." They make a complaint. Your boss goes, "I got the people complaining about. I'm gonna have to give you a shit assignment," or, "I'm gonna have to change your assignment." I mean, the whole time, someone's against you.

Steven Bartlett 14:23 They're trying to find some kind of chink in your armor, something you did wrong.

Mike Dowd 14:26 Yeah, uh, uh, and it's really to cover their ass. Back to the beginning. It's a very, very difficult pos... A fireman goes to work, you know what they do? They save lives. They put out fires. They eat a good meal, they have a great gym. No one's in there going... Now, they have rules, the decorum, but no one's going, "We're looking to take you for this, we're looking to stripe you for that." Y- you know, the civilians aren't walking into a firehouse and going, "I didn't like the way that truck backed out" (laughs) "and the siren blasted and hurt my ears." They're going, "Yay, they're going to save someone's life." A cop shows up on a scene, "He's gonna give me a ticket. He's gonna arrest my husband. My husband beat me and he doesn't believe me." I mean, i- i- it's just, it's such a, ugh, it's such a grating position to be in.

Steven Bartlett 15:08 When we're, when

Steven Bartlett 15:09 we're thinking about the factors, the environmental factors that led you to make the decisions that you made, one of the big factors that I was looking into at the time was, there was obviously this crack epidemic, but then it also seemed like the police at the time didn't actually want you to arrest people.

Mike Dowd 15:25 Yes, that's correct.

Steven Bartlett 15:26 I saw some crazy stat, which I'm sure you'll be able to account for me, but in the, in the sort of decade that you were a police officer, you didn't do that many arrests.

Mike Dowd 15:34 No.

Steven Bartlett 15:34 How many-

Mike Dowd 15:35 43.

Steven Bartlett 15:35 You did what?

Mike Dowd 15:36 43 arrests.

Steven Bartlett 15:37 You did 43 arrests in how many years?

Mike Dowd 15:40 Well, I mean, total, total of 10 years, but yeah. So, not all of that was patrol, but yeah. So it doesn't matter. I mean, I can make 43 arrests in a month, okay, if I really wanted to.

Steven Bartlett 15:48 If you weren't corrupt at that time, how many arrests do you think you probably should have made in those 10 years, based on the crimes that you observed?

Mike Dowd 15:56 500.

Steven Bartlett 15:57 Okay, so about 90% of the things you should have arrested someone for, you didn't.

Mike Dowd 16:01 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 16:02 Okay. And why weren't you making more arrests?

Mike Dowd 16:06 You couldn't keep the police on patrol if they were making arrests.

Steven Bartlett 16:10 They were clogging up the system.

Mike Dowd 16:12 The system would get so jammed up. The average amount of overtime for one crack arrest was 18 hours.

Steven Bartlett 16:17 You would be paid for that?

Mike Dowd 16:18 Paid time and a half.

Steven Bartlett 16:19 Okay, so then the department has to pay you more money if you do an arrest.

Mike Dowd 16:22 And then process the arrest, and they all get processed through the corrections system, and they all get processed through the court system. I mean, you're talking 150,000 arrests a year in, in Brooklyn alone. That's a lot of numbers if you just keep cranking at it, and everybody's getting 18 hours overtime per arrest.

Steven Bartlett 16:35 And who's paying for all these arrests at the end of the day?

Mike Dowd 16:37 Well, the city-

Steven Bartlett 16:38 The city's paying?

Mike Dowd 16:38 ... and the people.

Steven Bartlett 16:38 So the city don't want you to be arresting people.

Mike Dowd 16:40 No, 'cause they got a budget to, to ma- manage.

Steven Bartlett 16:42 Were you ever directly told to stop arresting-

Mike Dowd 16:45 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 16:45 ... people?

Mike Dowd 16:46 Yeah. W- w- how's this? You really didn't make a dent on it, and now you, there's, there's two men off patrol. And then your next assignment was the desk. You're making arrests, causing a problem.

Steven Bartlett 17:00 Yeah.

Mike Dowd 17:00 The city's paying for it. There's less police available, and the robberies, the r- the murders and the rapes in those communities were extremely high. They rather have them sell crack than the people get robbed and raped and murdered. Does that make sense? Of course it does.

Steven Bartlett 17:17 Yeah. Yeah, so it's all incentives. I think if you look at any system, you'll understand why people behave as they do, if you understand the incentive structure.

Mike Dowd 17:23 Right.

Steven Bartlett 17:23 And in your case, if you made a, uh, more arrests of criminals, then the city would have both a bill, because they had to pay cops overtime-

Mike Dowd 17:32 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 17:33 ... to take care of the admin work, but also, they're gonna have more cops off the street-

Mike Dowd 17:37 Right.

Steven Bartlett 17:38 ... which could also lead to more crime.

Mike Dowd 17:39 More crime. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 17:40 More crime.

Mike Dowd 17:40 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 17:40 So you were incentivized not to arrest people.

Mike Dowd 17:42 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 17:43 Okay, makes sense.

Mike Dowd 17:43 So that'll... So, what does that b- what does that lead to? That leads to the streets becoming unwielding. Like, there's no control. So, what happens is a guy like me, whose entrepreneurial spirit shows up and says, "There's a way to control this. I tax these people or arrest them, one of the two. And I can't arrest them, so I tax them."

Steven Bartlett 18:08 And let's

Steven Bartlett 18:09 talk about that first experience of you taxing the first person, which I think was in-... 1983. Your starting salary when you joined the police was $18,000 a year, roughly.

Mike Dowd 18:21 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 18:23 And you pulled someone over in 1983?

Mike Dowd 18:25 Y- yes.

Steven Bartlett 18:25 And that's the first time-

Mike Dowd 18:27 That's the first time there was a tax levied. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 18:30 That was the first time you, you committed a crime, I guess, as a police officer?

Mike Dowd 18:33 N- no. But the first time that I committed an actual l- money crime, I would s- say. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:39 How, how old are you at that point in '83?

Mike Dowd 18:40 23? 24? Yeah. And that was basically, uh, we called it a Puerto Rican mystery back then. I know that I'm famous for saying that and people are, "Ah!" Listen, it's, that's what we called it, all right? Because the guy was from Puerto Rico and he had no paperwork, no license or anything like that. And he just bought the car.

Steven Bartlett 18:56 And you pulled him over?

Mike Dowd 18:57 Pulled him over. No plates.

Steven Bartlett 18:58 No plates, right?

Mike Dowd 18:59 You just came here from Puerto Rico, you got a stack of 100s in your bag. And I'm looking, I'm saying, "You know, you got like $2,000 worth of tickets and I'm supposed to take your car from you." I said, "But you know, I like lobster. Leave me enough money for a lobster lunch, this whole thing can go away." So the kid was quick on his feet, he left a couple hundred bucks under my briefcase on the back seat. He got out and I said, "I don't wanna ever see you again, you know? Unless you got, (laughs) unless you got some more lobster lunch money later." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 19:27 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 19:28 Of course, I didn't say that. And of course, I left that scene with the money and I was very uncomfortable because it was the first time I actually solicited something like that. But it was sort of a, it was almost like I won

Mike Dowd 19:40 something.

Steven Bartlett 19:41 As a cop, one of the things we saw in movies back then is cops getting, like, sexual favors because they're cops.

Mike Dowd 19:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:47 Did that happen?

Mike Dowd 19:49 I would say that it was available and I've took advan- uh, some advantage of it. But yeah, there was some. Yeah. Yeah. There was some. I mean, I mean, th- that, that's like, you know, you're driving by in a police car and the girl says hello. And then you go and you, and you go fuck her. I mean, you know, that, is that, is that a se- is that like a benefit of the job or is that, you know, your promiscuity?

Steven Bartlett 20:09 Did you ever do that while working?

Mike Dowd 20:13 Yes. (laughs) That's my biggest sin in the world is- (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 20:16 In the-

Mike Dowd 20:16 ... get laid while working.

Steven Bartlett 20:17 In the car?

Mike Dowd 20:18 Eh, p- yes. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 20:23 Wow.

Mike Dowd 20:24 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:24 It's not just in movies, then?

Mike Dowd 20:25 That's, the lights and siren only went off once.

Steven Bartlett 20:28 Really?

Mike Dowd 20:28 (laughs) That was from a blowjob. It wasn't from the... (laughs) Yeah, the girl's ass hit the fucking buzzer. I'm like, "What the fuck?" The big back- (laughs) it's three in the morning, you hit the buzzer. I'm in the back of a courtyard of a t- uh, tr- a nine-story building.

Steven Bartlett 20:42 Your boss, your sergeant, around that time, did he know that you were doing things like this?

Mike Dowd 20:48 Not then. No. No. But shortly thereafter, there would be a situation where my sergeant, uh, it was a murder scene, dead kid, 20-year-old shot in the head and it was a marijuana spot. There's money, there's drugs, uh, you know? I mean, listen, it's overwhelming when you come across these things and there's a dead body there and you're entrusted to handle all this stuff and you're broke.

Steven Bartlett 21:13 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 21:14 And so I took a little thin stack of 100s and put it in my pocket, turned out it was like 600 bucks. And as the crime scene was being processed, in walks my sergeant, Sergeant James Otto. He says, "Is this it?" You know, like two, three pounds of marijuana, which is like this much marijuana. It's not a fucking big pile of shit. And, uh, I don't know, it was like, I don't know, $1,500 in cash stacked all over here. He goes, "Is this it?" I go, "Yeah." I go, "But, but..." But I felt like he was asking me too much. So, "Well, I did have this," and I took out a thin stack of 100s and he goes, "Oh, anything else?" I go, "No, that's it." I said, you know, "I didn't want anything to get full of blood" (laughs) so... Later on that night, I run into him at a, at a, a choir practice they would call it, and we're out bullshitting, having a couple beers. I said, "Sarge, let me ask you a question. What if..." And I say, and I, I come across money and... I said, "What if I kept that 600?" He goes, "I was annoyed that you gave it to me." Like, just picture the moment. You're 20 something years old, you're broke, you know, you're coming to work. You, you know, you're surviving. You're in survival mode. You're out having a couple of beers with your buddies and the, your boss, who's got 20 years on the job at this point, so he's, actually could retire e- if he wanted to, and he says to you, "If I don't see it, it's yours." He says, "But let me know, so you can throw me something later on." It was like the whole vision of this thing changed at that moment. He's basically saying, "If you get there, it's yours. Take what you can before I get there 'cause I don't wanna witness it 'cause I don't wanna have to witness it."

Steven Bartlett 22:49 Mm-hmm. Was he taking money?

Mike Dowd 22:52 Well, he wouldn't... He'd say no, but clearly, he was indicating that, "It's good. Just don't let me see it."

Steven Bartlett 22:59 When you reflect on that scene that you arrived at, you said there was a 20-year-old man that was dead.

Mike Dowd 23:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:04 Did, did seeing those scenes ever bother you?

Mike Dowd 23:08 Initially, my first, my first DOA was my first day, a guy jumped off a building and landed on his head. (sighs) Uh, that bothered me because the family showed up. It was horrific and I, I gotta hold the family back and, "Don't touch him 'cause he could be a murd- We don't know. We don't know why he's dead. It's a crime scene essentially." I began to see people shot, stabbed. You have a total disconnect, like, really quickly. The first shooting I was at was, uh, doing a midnight shift and, uh, and, uh, the guys were doing a burglary of a car, they were stealing tires and had tire irons. And I said, "Hey, we should stop these guys." And my buddy Sal's like, "Nah," my partner, "Nah, let 'em go. Uh, it's late." Someone flags us down. "Hey, this guy's trying to steal t- steal tires off a car." So now I said, "Look, we got civilians complaining about the same people that we should have just tossed." Turn around, go back about two or three blocks, guy's dead in the street. And I see a tire iron. So I said to the people, "Was there, were they carrying a, a jack or a tire iron?" And, and they go, "Yeah." And they point over to the street where the, the tire iron was for ta- taking the wheels off, off a car.This guy could have shot us, you know, like, so, like, like, he's dead. It could have been us or if we did toss this guy, he could not be dead. So, y- y- when you come that close to death itself, your, your survival s- instincts give you the ability to disconnect fairly quickly from those types of scenes.

Steven Bartlett 24:42 Did you ever show up to a scene where you saw someone dead or dying and feel sad?

Mike Dowd 24:47 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. (sighs) Yeah, a couple times. But more import-... One, one, one that strikes me a lot was, I was talking to the guy who was going out and we knew he was gonna die, you know. It was just, uh... He was stabbed in the stomach and, uh, he's looking at me and he goes, "I'm getting cold." I go, "Yeah, it's gonna be okay." (laughs) He says, "I'm getting cold, officer." I said, "Oh, you're gonna be okay. We're gonna get you to the hospital." You know, the ambulance showed up, like, five minutes later. He was barely conscious when he got in the ambulance and he wasn't gonna make it, and he, he died. And that was sad because I couldn't do anything for him. I'm like...

Steven Bartlett 25:25 You saw a lot of stuff. Why did that affect you?

Mike Dowd 25:28 I felt bad because I was talking to him, knowing he's gonna die. Like... And, and, uh, one other time, I felt really bad. Uh, some guy who was, I guess, he was getting, he was getting laid. You know, young guy, big, heavyset, strong, powerful Black guy. He's... Uh, his wife is like... I looked at her, she goes... I, I'm like, I knew... I could tell it was a sexual thing. They had sex and the fucking guy was, like, 35 years old and he, he was either dead or dying. He had a heart attack. And, uh, I wanted to give him CPR. But it would have been my first actual CPR case, you know? And the two cops I was working with go, "Nah, don't worry about it. Go, go get the ambulance."

Steven Bartlett 26:15 "Don't worry about it?"

Mike Dowd 26:16 Yeah. "Yeah, he's gonna be okay. Don't worry about it. Go get the ambulance." And I'm like, "But shouldn't we do CPR?" "No, no, no. You go, you go outside." But I was the kid. I was the rookie. And these two old-timers are like, "Don't worry about it. It's gonna be all right. Go outside and, and, uh, direct the ambulance in." Like, two minutes later, the ambulance showed up. They started CPR on the guy and he died. To not render aid when you think you can make a difference, that hurts.

Steven Bartlett 26:44 Why did they tell you not to render aid to him?

Mike Dowd 26:46 I, I, I don't know. I don't know why. They didn't tell me why. You know? And it was very disheartening because I think I could have helped save the guy. But what am I gonna do, wrestle with these guys? You know, they go get the... They're in charge. Senior cop on the scene is in

Mike Dowd 26:59 charge.

Steven Bartlett 27:00 At some point, you started actually dealing drugs.

Mike Dowd 27:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:05 How did you start getting into drugs? When did... When was that eureka moment that you realized that you could sell drugs?

Mike Dowd 27:11 My partner at the time took some home, uh, out of the blue, and, uh, he came back and handed me a couple hundred dollars one day. I said, "What's that for?" He goes, "That shit we've been throwing out is cocaine. We ain't throwing it out no more. I got somebody that wants it." So, he's bringing me cash. I was like, "Okay. Well, this, this ain't that bad." I mean, you know, if... For me, it was like, I didn't see it, I didn't do it, so I was okay with it. And then it becomes like anything else. It softens the blow for the next step and eventually that would lead to me just, whatever dope I found I would take, and, and if I couldn't find it, I'd, I'd see one of the drug dealers and say, "Give me something." Or, or, or s-... Or, "Give me something for discount." I mean, that's... It, it becomes... You become a market maker at that point.

Steven Bartlett 27:54 Did you start buying it to sell it from these drug dealers?

Mike Dowd 27:57 At, at some points I started buying it, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:59 How bad did it get with the drug dealing when you were a cop? 'Cause it almost sounds like you've, at this point, given up being a cop, enforcing the law.

Mike Dowd 28:06 So, here's what... It's, it's a dichotomy, right? Because I put the uniform on, I go to work and if you are not in the drug business, you're gonna get a good police officer, in my, from my perspective. You may never say that, you may never agree with it, but if you were... Had a car accident and you needed a police officer to take the report, bring you to a hospital, I would do all the arrangements, do whatever... best I could. If you had gotten robbed, I would do the report, I'd take you to a hospital if you were injured. You know, whatever I needed. I, I mean, I responded like a p- proper police officer. But if you were in the drug business, you were mine. You were mine. Simple. I mean, how else can I say it?

Steven Bartlett 28:43 What do you mean by "you were mine"?

Mike Dowd 28:45 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:46 (laughs)

Mike Dowd 28:46 You were mine. I owned you.

Steven Bartlett 28:48 In what regard?

Mike Dowd 28:49 In every regard. Whatever I wanted. You were mine.

Steven Bartlett 28:53 You could take their drugs. You could take-

Mike Dowd 28:54 Whatever I wanted. Your car, if I wanted it.

Steven Bartlett 28:58 Did you ever take someone's car?

Mike Dowd 28:59 I didn't have to. A guy gave me one.

Steven Bartlett 29:02 What else?

Mike Dowd 29:02 (laughs) Whatever. Coats, jackets, gold, whate- whatever. Chains.

Steven Bartlett 29:07 What was your

Steven Bartlett 29:08 biggest heist as a police officer?

Mike Dowd 29:11 I would s-... I, I... They weren't that large. I'd say 40 to $50,000 one, at one time, which back then was good money. You know? You're talking about two years' salary, you know.

Steven Bartlett 29:21 Yeah, if you're on a, like, 20, $30,000 whatever is your salary-

Mike Dowd 29:24 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:24 ... getting 40,000 is-

Mike Dowd 29:25 Yeah, doubled my salary th- tripled my salary, yeah, that year. Things like that come along. You know, so, so there was opportunities. So, we, we... You would call that a score, right? Opposed to an ongoing thing.

Steven Bartlett 29:36 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 29:37 S-... Y- 'cause, like, boom, it's there. It's, it's a one hit and wonder and it's over. Every job in East New York, nine out of ten, was involved with drugs. You're exposed to it. It's your choice on how you deal with it. You're the boss. You are the boss. You show up, you're the boss.

Steven Bartlett 29:55 Were your colleagues around you doing the same?

Mike Dowd 29:59 The accurate answer is some were. There's... The best description is you would never know. You would never know. I might 'cause I know what's going on, but if you were a cop that was not involved, you would never know.

Steven Bartlett 30:17 So, the good cops wouldn't know that it was happening?

Mike Dowd 30:19 They wouldn't know because I'm not gonna tell you. Now, if you happened to say something to me that you, "Hey, wait a minute. Something went down there." I'd say, "And what do you want to do about it?"You want in? I'll tell you a funny story. Ready?

Steven Bartlett 30:35 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 30:35 We go to the scene, I don't wanna describe it 'cause it's lengthy. Long story short, the cops show up. (laughs) We're the cops, but the cops show up behind us and they go, "Oh, that's Dowd and his partner, leave them alone." And they turn around and they walk away. So the officers knew just, s- just, I don't wanna see what they're doing because then, uh, I'm culpable or responsible for what they're doing. And that's how it became.

Steven Bartlett 30:57 And what were you doing in that scene?

Mike Dowd 31:00 Cocaine and heroin. Uh, uh, and my partner wanted the guns. I said, "What are you gonna do with the guns? There's money in this p- (laughs) This is money, that's a gun." And, and, and people were dead, so, uh, the guns may be, uh, connected to the crime, so just...

Steven Bartlett 31:12 When you show up at a scene like that, how do you, and you arrive there, and there's guns, there's money, there's drugs, how do you get the money and the drugs without other officers seeing you?

Mike Dowd 31:23 It's funny. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 31:24 Like, how do you get it out? Do you put it in the back of the police car?

Mike Dowd 31:27 So one time I put it in a laundry bag which was still (laughs) loaded up with heroin and cocaine and, I don't know, whatever else was in there, and I happened to be lucky. There was a, a row of garbage pails along this person's entranceway. As the sergeant was walking up the stairway to investigate the scene with us to, to secure it and make sure that everyone's doing what they're supposed to do, I take this bag and I go like this and I put it in the garbage pail. (laughs) He comes up to me, I go, "Sarge, there's a guy dead in the doorway. They shot him through the, through the eye hole." I said, "And there's another guy shot upstairs and there's a bunch of guns and stuff up there." I go, "But there's so many cops here, I'm gonna go 98," which means, "I'm gonna go back on patrol." He goes, "Good." Like, "Good idea." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 32:12 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 32:13 I'm like, "Good, we agree." So that gets me away from the scene. So now he goes up the stairs, I go back into the garbage pail, pick up the, the green laundry bag and put it in my car and I leave. So now I gotta go to a drug dealer, get rid of it.

Steven Bartlett 32:25 And then you get loads of cash?

Mike Dowd 32:27 Eventually, yes.

Steven Bartlett 32:28 And what'd you do with the cash?

Mike Dowd 32:29 In that specific case, I drove right to my, my drug dealing friend's place who had a, uh, auto body, a Auto Sound City. They put the sound into c- into cars.

Steven Bartlett 32:38 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 32:38 I went right to his shop, I dropped off the dope with him, and he called his buddy that sold the heroin in the area, and so on and so forth, and that recycles back into money.

Steven Bartlett 32:46 Were you ever scared?

Mike Dowd 32:48 No. No.

Steven Bartlett 32:51 Should you have been?

Mike Dowd 32:52 I sh- I should've been more cautious.

Steven Bartlett 32:54 Did you

Steven Bartlett 32:55 ever think you were gonna get caught?

Mike Dowd 32:56 (sighs) You know, it was in the back of my mind for probably five years. Just never left. And thus, thus, you constantly are, um, your anxiety level's up. Your, you know, your body starts to go numb, uh, and you wonder, "What's wrong with me?" What's wrong with you? You're living, like, three different lives, you know. You have a wife, you have a girlfriend, you have drugs. You, you, you're a cop. You're selling drugs. You're shaking people down. "Well, no, everything's just fine." No, it's not, it's never good.

Steven Bartlett 33:26 You have a

Steven Bartlett 33:27 wife and a girlfriend?

Mike Dowd 33:29 Yeah, most, (laughs) most of the time.

Steven Bartlett 33:32 And you have kids?

Mike Dowd 33:34 At that time, one.

Steven Bartlett 33:36 And did anybody know what you were doing at home?

Mike Dowd 33:39 I would leave that up to her. But the mink coats and the new cars and the trips to, around the world, uh, you don't do them on a cop's salary.

Steven Bartlett 33:48 But you never said it?

Mike Dowd 33:50 She knew enough.

Steven Bartlett 33:52 And did she ever give you advice about what you were doing?

Mike Dowd 33:55 "Stop."

Steven Bartlett 33:56 That's what she said?

Mike Dowd 33:57 "Stop. I don't need this. I'd rather have you." Imagine that. That's a nice feeling in a way, right? "I'd rather have you and sleep under a bridge."

Steven Bartlett 34:07 That's what she said?

Mike Dowd 34:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:09 Your ex-wife?

Mike Dowd 34:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:11 And why didn't you stop?

Mike Dowd 34:13 Can't.

Steven Bartlett 34:14 You can't?

Mike Dowd 34:15 You can't. You can't stop that e- It's not that easy to stop that.

Steven Bartlett 34:19 Uh, I read the story that someone, uh, uh, a lieutenant had put a complaint against you for a tr- trivial matter and you retaliated by reporting them, uh, to internal affairs for being in a drug house.

Mike Dowd 34:32 (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 34:32 And then this sort of led to a situation where you received death threats over the phone from that lieutenant.

Mike Dowd 34:37 Yeah, I'm working in Coney Island. I was sent to Coney Island to get away from East New York to, 'cause they knew I was hot. I mean, the story's so big and deep, it's just crazy. The bottom line with him was, I end up in a dispute with him somehow.

Steven Bartlett 34:49 He's a cop?

Mike Dowd 34:50 A cop, yeah. And he had a Mercedes Benz, you know, three, 380 something Mercedes Benz, whatever it was. His license plate on the back of his car said, "B. Scott." Less than a month later, about three weeks later, I'm out in Long Island and there's the car.

Steven Bartlett 35:07 (laughs)

Mike Dowd 35:07 There's only one B. Scott, all right, in New York plate. And I dr- pulled over and I said to my wife at the time, I said, "Get a good look at this guy." And he went up into a crack house. Al- there was only one crack house in the, in the whole neighborhood and that was it. He went up into it and then he came out, and so I left. I went home and I spoke to my neighbor, who's my wife's uncle, who was a detective in the 102 Squad with 28 years on the job at the time. I said, "Listen, I want to talk to you." He goes, "What's up?" I told him the st- story, the scenario. And he goes, "Listen, Mike. Anything but drugs. You gotta turn him in." And it was hard for me to do this because now I'm turning on a guy that I know is involved in drugs and I know what I had done previously. So I call internal affairs and they were at my house in 45 minutes. Like, hello? I mean, I'm at my house. Uh, I live 45 minutes from them. They were at my house in 45 minutes. They do an interview with me. Long story short, they put a lineup in front of me, I pick the guy out. So later on, within a week or so, I'm getting phone calls to my house at 2:00, 3:00 in the morning. But this every day, it's going on every day. For about a month's length of time. So finally I go, "What do you want, bro? Enough is enough." "I'm fucking your wife. Every time you go to work, I'm fucking her." Nah, nah, nah, nah. "Oh, oh, really?" "Yeah, she gets off the train at Long Island Railroad and I pick her up, I bring her home and I fuck her." "Uh, oh, okay. Thank you very much." I said, "Well, why don't you come by and we'll straighten it out right here? You and me."... he goes, "Why don't I put a bullet in your fucking head while you're standing there in front of the window?"

Steven Bartlett 36:45 So he could see you?

Mike Dowd 36:47 I don't know.

Steven Bartlett 36:48 Did you p- plot to kill him?

Mike Dowd 36:50 No. Why would I plot to kill this guy? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 36:54 Well, 'cause it sounds like he wants to kill you.

Mike Dowd 36:55 Well, that's different now. (laughs) But I, but I d- but I didn't, 'cause I didn't know who it was. It took me years to figure out who it was. But in the interim, I ran into him again. I essentially arrested him without arresting him. I gave him summonses, which is an arrest, in a way, and he was so pissed off, he made a complaint against me, and, you know ... Uh, he was susp- at this point, he was suspended.

Steven Bartlett 37:19 Oh, so he was a civilian when you arres- when you ...

Mike Dowd 37:21 He was a su- suspended. He was an officer on suspension.

Steven Bartlett 37:24 Okay.

Mike Dowd 37:25 And he was suspended for being the gun in a drug case in Harlem. He was the collector in Harlem for a drug organization, it turns out.

Steven Bartlett 37:35 What's a collector?

Mike Dowd 37:36 He was the strongman for ... So if you owed money to a drug organization, he went out and collected it.

Steven Bartlett 37:40 Oh, okay.

Mike Dowd 37:41 So he was on, he was an off- he was a police officer who had a job collecting money for a drug organization in Harlem.

Steven Bartlett 37:47 You met a guy called Baron Perez.

Mike Dowd 37:48 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 37:49 Who's Baron Perez?

Mike Dowd 37:50 Baron Perez is the guy who owns Auto Sound City, at the time. He was what you would call a middleman in any deal in Brooklyn.

Steven Bartlett 37:57 So he ran a car shop, which was a front for a cocaine shop?

Mike Dowd 38:00 He was not a front. He had been a legitimate business. But in his business would be all the dealers in Brooklyn would come in.

Steven Bartlett 38:08 And did you ... Is that where you met La Compania?

Mike Dowd 38:11 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 38:11 What is La Compania?

Mike Dowd 38:12 La Compania was a Dominican drug organization that ran small nickel-and-dime spots throughout the city, lots of them, like dozens of them, and they were basically based out of bodegas.

Steven Bartlett 38:25 And you were a cop at the time when you met them?

Mike Dowd 38:26 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 38:27 And they're one of the most powerful drug orga- organizations in New York City at the time?

Mike Dowd 38:30 At the time, yes, but they were street-level mostly. They had their own ... They had their own organizational structure, but they, they dealt with all the street-level bodegas.

Steven Bartlett 38:41 And at the time, you're getting paid $600 a week as a cop.

Mike Dowd 38:45 No, every two weeks.

Steven Bartlett 38:46 Every two weeks as a cop.

Mike Dowd 38:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:47 So you're making $300 a week as a cop.

Mike Dowd 38:48 Right.

Steven Bartlett 38:49 And this drug gang offer you how much money to protect them?

Mike Dowd 38:53 They didn't offer me anything. I told them if they wanted the protection, it was 8,000 a week.

Steven Bartlett 38:59 And what did they say when you said that?

Mike Dowd 39:00 "We'll pay it."

Steven Bartlett 39:01 So they paid you $8,000 a week, this drug gang?

Mike Dowd 39:04 For the first week, and then they sh- shorted me $700.

Steven Bartlett 39:08 What does shorted mean?

Mike Dowd 39:09 Short. They, they were short 700.

Steven Bartlett 39:10 Okay.

Mike Dowd 39:11 So they paid me 7,300 instead of 8,000. So I told them, "I need the rest of the money." It's a deal is a deal. And they said, you know, "We're not paying you. We- we- we're done." So then I threatened them, and I shut their business down. I parked police cars in front of their

Mike Dowd 39:29 business for a week, and they put a hit on me.

Steven Bartlett 39:32 What does it mean when someone puts a hit on you? As a police officer, what does that mean?

Mike Dowd 39:35 They suggest to anybody that is willing to shoot and kill this cop, uh, they'll pay them.

Steven Bartlett 39:41 And how'd you find out they've ... that this drug gang have put a hit on you?

Mike Dowd 39:44 Well, because Baron Perez knows everybody in the city, s- in the drug business, 'cause he, he does their cars. He said, "There's a hit on you." He said, "By La Compania." I said, "Okay." I went out that same day. I saw his car. I never met the guy in my life, but I knew his car, La Compania, the boss. I pulled him over. He didn't know who I was. I told him, "Your license, registration." I just threw the papers back in his lap. I said, "You gonna put a hit on me?" He turned as white as that pen 'cause now I'm standing over him, and, and he's sitting down in a little tiny Renault. He's looking up at me. I said, "If you wanna put a hit on me, why don't we s- ... we'll clear it up right here. I'll let you get out of the car, and we'll do a 10-pace walk off. You turn around, I'll turn around, and we'll shoot it out."

Steven Bartlett 40:27 Did you mean that?

Mike Dowd 40:28 I meant it, every word of it. You don't say something you don't mean when you talk about guns and weapons.

Steven Bartlett 40:32 What if he said yes?

Mike Dowd 40:33 Uh, it was on. I wasn't gonna s- not, I wasn't gonna not let him.

Steven Bartlett 40:36 Were you not scared?

Mike Dowd 40:38 I- I- I, I was crazy. I don't know. (laughs) It ... I didn't think of f- of fear. I always thought I was always gonna win.

Steven Bartlett 40:44 What did he say?

Mike Dowd 40:46 "No, no, no, no." I said, uh, "We- well, we'll take the hit off." My pager went off 20 minutes later, and he said, "The hit's off. I don't wanna do any more business with you. There was the $700. Please leave us alone."

Steven Bartlett 40:57 So you got your $700 in the end?

Mike Dowd 40:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:58 And that was the end of your relationship with, with them?

Mike Dowd 41:00 With, with La Compania, correct.

Steven Bartlett 41:02 Um, at some point after that, you met a guy called Adam Diaz-

Mike Dowd 41:04 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 41:05 ... who is a much bigger Dominican drug dealer.

Mike Dowd 41:07 Correct. Adam was, you know, two, three levels above them. You know, he was, like the guy that gets the 1500 kilos and distributes it out.

Steven Bartlett 41:14 And he's making a million dollars a week, and he's selling, what, 50 million a year in cocaine?

Mike Dowd 41:18 Correct, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:20 How did you come to meet him, and what was the arrangement?

Mike Dowd 41:22 Through Baron, the same way I met La Compania.

Steven Bartlett 41:24 Through that car shop?

Mike Dowd 41:25 Yes, correct. And we had a nice sit-down, him and I. We had a discussion. I said, "If you wanna talk to me, you bring $24,000 in cash." I don't know why I didn't say 25. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:36 So, he agrees he wants to talk to you?

Mike Dowd 41:38 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:39 And what does he say in that meeting?

Mike Dowd 41:40 He agrees to the meeting. We sit down, and I, I explain to him what I can do. Uh-

Steven Bartlett 41:44 W- what can you do?

Mike Dowd 41:44 Nothing really, but I make it up.

Steven Bartlett 41:46 What did you say?

Mike Dowd 41:47 I said, "I can surveil your, your buildings and, and, and your locations, and, uh, if I know of any impending raids, I could give you a heads-up." I said ... But one thing I did say to him, and I'll say it to the camera, "If anybody gets hurt, I'm giving myself and you up." I said, "Because that's not what this is about." We agreed to, with the terms, "I'll do what I can for you." I said, "I can't promise you anything, but I will do f- ... what I will do for you is the best that I can." So, I mean, Diaz started paying me 8,000 a week. Listen, I'm now making 8,000 a week, splitting it with my partner, who didn't deserve any of it, but whatever. And, uh, that was more than the president of the United States at the time. I mean, the, the ... Like, that's a pretty powerful feeling for a civil servant cop.

Steven Bartlett 42:29 So you couldn't really do anything for him?

Mike Dowd 42:31 Very little.

Steven Bartlett 42:32 You could do very little for him, but you promised him a lot.

Mike Dowd 42:34 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 42:35 And he-

Mike Dowd 42:35 And I, and I actually performed for him.

Steven Bartlett 42:37 So he, he or- originally paid you $24,000?

Mike Dowd 42:40 For the conversation.

Steven Bartlett 42:41 Just for the conversation?

Mike Dowd 42:42 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 42:42 And then he paid you $8,000 a week?

Mike Dowd 42:44 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 42:45 Wow. And there

Steven Bartlett 42:47 was a particular time where you did actually save him some money?

Mike Dowd 42:50 More than once, yes. I probably was involved with him at this point for about three or four weeks. I was able to pick off a pending raid that I didn't know they were going into his store, but I knew there was a raid gonna happen. So I walked him to his store, picked up two Heinekens, walked up to the counter, opened up the Heinekens, and told the guy behind- I didn't know the guy behind the counter. I go, "Shut it down. Like, shut it down." He looks at me. I go, "Shut it down." He don't know me, I don't know him, but he knows. I walked outside and I say, within an hour and a half, they were hit with a team of 30 or 40 narcotics detectives. And I don't think they found a gram of salt in the place.

Steven Bartlett 43:31 And there was another occasion where you saved Adam Diaz.

Mike Dowd 43:34 Well, that's when they got the- the- the robbery with, uh, with Coke and, uh, Franklin. So Franklin and Coke were the local bandits. They robbed all the drug dealers 'cause they were just straight up killers. They didn't care. And they went to his spot, and they're not gonna kill you if they don't have to, if you give up the shit. So the kid walked them upstairs, uh, Elvis was his name, walked them upstairs to the apartment with all the drugs and all the money in it, and they gave as much as they could up. And someone called 911, and I hit mark one right down there, and I pulled out, I was the first car on the scene. I jumped out and Elvis goes, Elvis is telling me, "They just robbed us." Uh, so I- I shut it down. We're on the scene. No further, I think it's a 90 X-ray, which means it's unfounded. So that would stop the police approaching the location. Basically, I have the scene closed down. There's a guy upstairs, the cops are upstairs taking shit out, like cash and drugs. The thieves couldn't get it all. There was just too much. I go, "What are you guys doing?" (laughs) This is crazy how this happens. They go, "We found..." I go, "Listen, do you have a sear- (laughs) do you have a search warrant to go in that house?" The young cop, he went. (laughs) I'm senior guy at the scene. They go, "No." I go, "So what are you doing? You can't just go in there and take the shit out." Technically you can't, but you can because it's an exigent circumstance, you're allowed.

Steven Bartlett 44:47 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 44:48 So they got bags of cocaine and money. (laughs) So I got the cops to put the cocaine and the money back in the fucking house. (laughs) Don't ask me how, but they did it.

Mike Dowd 44:58 (laughs)

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Steven Bartlett 45:50 apply. One of your friends when you were a cop was called Officer Venable, and he was shot in the head by associates at La Compania, um, and you were the first cop to arrive on the scene of Officer Venable-

Mike Dowd 46:03 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 46:03 ... who later died in hospital.

Mike Dowd 46:04 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 46:05 And you said that you had a lot of guilt over it.

Mike Dowd 46:08 Yes. Well, because it's just the whole thing. I was involved in drugs in East New York, and I was involved in protecting drug organizations, and now a cop that- that I didn't know was killed. And, uh, that doesn't matter that I didn't know him 'cause he's a cop, you know, that's, you know, it's not acceptable. Uh, just the fact that a cop was killed is not acceptable. And now the guilt that I lived with was that I was protecting people that may have either dealt with those people or been associated with those people.

Steven Bartlett 46:39 Who killed a cop.

Mike Dowd 46:40 But they killed a cop. And that's, you know, it- everything's f- What does Tyson say? "Everything's, uh, it's all good until someone punches you in the fucking nose." Well, that's like getting punched in the nose. Like, like, what am I really doing? It was hard to swallow. I- I mean, and I don't th- I don't think, I don't think it, there's no excuse. Uh, what's, what's the answer to that? Uh, I- it's not behavior that, or it's... First of all, in East New York, the cops are the greatest in the fucking world, okay? They dealt with the worst scenarios that mankind can present. And at that point, no cop had ever been killed in East New York. Some have been shot, some have been injured, but no on-duty police officer had been killed ever in East New York till that day. It's almost like I was connected to it. And, uh, so it was tough. It was tough on me as a human being, nevermind as a cop that was doing wrong. I mean, we allowed them to stay in business. Even though there was little you could do, the fact that you knew what they were doing and the fact that you partook in some of the spoils of it, you feel that you're directly connected and responsible.

Steven Bartlett 47:54 When you say you feel bad, what- how did that manifest, like literally and specifically?

Mike Dowd 48:03 Well, I would say that that's when I really took that turn into drugs and alcohol more deeply. And that's when I ended up probably three, three to six months later, I ended, ended up in a rehab. About six months later, I ended up in rehab.

Steven Bartlett 48:17 Were you depressed?

Mike Dowd 48:19 What a cop does, what I did, was I would go in my bathroom, close the door, and read the paper and cry. Now, I don't deserve any sympathy for that. It's just, it was my way of letting go of all the guilt I was living with throughout, uh, my career as a cop. A- a-

Steven Bartlett 48:36 You- you'd go in your bathroom, read the newspaper and cry?

Mike Dowd 48:39 Yeah. Yeah. Just because it was like a, it was a way to release all the built up, I don't know what the proper word is for this at this point, stress, anxiety, guilt, um-Because I was-- I knew my internal strife about what I was doing was wrong, I was not able to publicly grieve. "Oh, ******. I'm really feeling bad right now, what do I do? Um, you know, I, I robbed drug dealers and I sold some cocaine, and now there's a cop dead as a result of cocaine." Who do I tell that to?

Steven Bartlett 49:13 Hmm.

Mike Dowd 49:14 It's my own prison.

Steven Bartlett 49:17 And at this time you were on drugs as well, you were taking drugs?

Mike Dowd 49:18 Alcohol and drugs, at this point, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:20 Also, you were losing your marriage.

Mike Dowd 49:22 Correct. I, I wa- (sighs) so, I wanna be accurate on, on the reason I went. Even in spite of losing my marriage (laughs) and my kids and my house, it wasn't the driving force. The driving force was I was gonna lose my job. That was the driving force. At this point, I didn't wanna lose the job. I'd rather leave the job on my own terms than lose the job.

Steven Bartlett 49:50 Who had you become?

Mike Dowd 49:52 I became the direct result of poor decisions and the environment that I was in, which I could see, looking back at the time. I became whatever was in the environment. I became part of the environment. I, I, I was no different than the people that were selling crack cocaine, or robbing people, robbing drug dealers w- because they all did each other that way. So b- a lot of people say, "Well, that's the environment they grew up in." You know what? I can see that.

Steven Bartlett 50:18 Hmm.

Mike Dowd 50:19 So I can relate to that, you know? It doesn't excuse the behavior. We all know that. There's no excuse for the behavior, but I became the environment I was living in.

Steven Bartlett 50:26 If I'd asked your wife at the time, "What's Mike like as a, as a human?" What would she have said to me at that point when you went off to rehab?

Mike Dowd 50:34 She probably would have said, "He's a lost soul." (laughs) And an asshole. I wasn't a nice ... You become, you become God. Like, you get the God complex. Like, you feel indestructible, but you, but you see yourself declining, like it's th- the weirdest thing in the world. You know you're going down a rabbit hole, but the whole time you have this false armor on.

Steven Bartlett 51:03 What's the rabbit hole you were going down?

Mike Dowd 51:05 (sighs) Drugs, alcohol, women. Violence, you know? V- violence is coming, you know? I mean, you become, you, you, you're turning into a violent, potential killing machine. I was going to become the exact thing that you would have said, "You don't belong on the street ever in your life again."

Steven Bartlett 51:25 And you went to rehab, and when you were coming out of rehab, your intent is to straighten up your life?

Mike Dowd 51:30 When I came home, you know, it was, it was, it was an eye-opener, because I thought, "Great, I'm gonna get a fresh start." It turned out that when you become a straight-laced guy, when you've been known to be corrupt, the process of getting to become a police officer in full respect is very, very difficult, maybe never ha- it may never happen. So in my case, because I tried to do the right thing, and I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to, to shift responsibility, 'cause it's always your own responsibility. Because I was trying to do the right thing, cops got nervous, because, "This isn't the guy we heard about, so that means he's here to set us up."

Steven Bartlett 52:15 So when you came back from rehab, they thought you were working as an informant, potentially?

Mike Dowd 52:18 Correct, yes. Very well played, yes. That's what they thought, that I was now working for the man and I was g- there to get them.

Steven Bartlett 52:26 And what did that mean in terms of how they treated you?

Mike Dowd 52:28 So they would be ... They would shun me, not wanna work with me, not wanna partner with me, not wanna back me up, not invite me to any social gatherings, so I was basically an outcast now. I went from being the guy that ran shit to an outcast.

Steven Bartlett 52:40 And what did that mean for you as a cop?

Mike Dowd 52:43 Well, it meant that you were is- isolated.

Steven Bartlett 52:45 Yeah.

Mike Dowd 52:45 A- and that you had no camaraderie. You didn't have the, the reason that you enjoyed being a cop is 'cause you had brotherhood, camaraderie, uh, safety, protection, like any organization that you belonged to, you know? And I basically didn't have that any- anymore. And, um, that affected me and my decision-making going forward from there, so I just couldn't stay stopped. It's like being an alcoholic. You can stop, but you gotta stay stopped.

Steven Bartlett 53:09 You were ... How long were you in rehab for?

Mike Dowd 53:11 Two years.

Steven Bartlett 53:11 You were in rehab for two years?

Mike Dowd 53:12 Yeah. Not locked away in rehab, but r- on what they call modified assignment for two years.

Steven Bartlett 53:18 Okay. And you, you tried to resign/retire from the police on disability at one point?

Mike Dowd 53:23 Well, I was hoping that they would offer it.

Steven Bartlett 53:25 Right.

Mike Dowd 53:25 Yeah. The message was being dropped, "This guy's no good, and he's g- they're gonna arrest him soon if, if, if he continues on." You know, the words to me were, "You're going out one way or the other, and it's not through disability. You're either getting arrested or fired."

Steven Bartlett 53:38 Someone

Steven Bartlett 53:39 looking at this story would probably go, "Why didn't you ... If you knew that they were onto you, if you knew that they were investigating you, following you for months and months and months, why didn't you just stop?"

Mike Dowd 53:47 You know when the kid goes into the barn and there's a pile of hay and shit and manure and someone tells him there's a diamond ring in the middle of that pile of shit, and the kid gets his shovel and he starts shoveling, looking for that diamond ring? That's how I, that's who I am. I'm that guy looking for that little diamond in that pile of shit. I'm an optimist.

Steven Bartlett 54:11 You thought it would all be okay?

Mike Dowd 54:13 Listen, I was in prison for ... Well, I was sentenced to 14 years, which, by the way was a pretty f- fair sentence overall, I guess (laughs) and, uh, every day in prison I thought, "The next day, I might go home." And I did that for 12 and a half years. Like, that's how, that's how powerful the mind is.

Steven Bartlett 54:32 I was born in '92, and in '92, that's quite a significant year for you because this is the year you were arrested.

Mike Dowd 54:38 Correct. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:39 What happened that day? Take me into that day when you were arrested by the police department.

Mike Dowd 54:44 So, it's '92, the day after Rodney King riots, May 4th, May 5th. I had just made a deal with Kenny Urell, my ex-partner, who was in the cocaine business with him, his wife, and his friends at the bowling alley.... Kenny Irrell kept calling me up for, for drugs because the price had doubled, and he knew that if anyone could get it, I could, and I did. So I got him a couple packages of cocaine, let's say three or four. In the meantime, his phones are tapped because he was the target of an investigation on Long Island. On the following day, I'm driving around and my r- our radio's extremely quiet. No one's qui- e- Ninth Ward's quiet anyway, the, the Williamsburg area, but really quiet for the last two, three days, and I'm getting a little suspicious. I just picked, dropped the package off with Kenny. I pull up to the station house and I see a car there that looks strange, and I see two guys in the front seat. I walk into the station house with my partner and, uh, with the desk officer. He points, he says, "The captain wants to see you." In walks these two guys that were in the car that were out in front of the precinct with their badges out, "Lieutenant so-and-so, Internal Affairs. We're taking you for a drug test." And sure enough, uh, went downstairs, got changed. I couldn't even get changed. I couldn't get my clothes off, they were so close to me. I, I couldn't bend my knee. They was, like, right up my ass. I'm like, "Excuse me, guys." I said, "Am I under arrest?" They go, "No, no, no." "Are you sure? Because you're awfully close here." Anyway, they put me in a car. I get in the back of the car. I said, "I gotta smoke." I got cocaine in my pocket now 'cause I- it's in my clothes. I gotta... I couldn't take it out and leave it in my locker with them standing there. I go, "You guys, can you open a window? I'm smoking a cigarette." Like, like, I'm chain-smoking. "Nah, it's okay. We'll be all right." "Are you sure? You guys are gonna choke out." "No, no, don't worry about it." I'm trying to get the cocaine and throw it out the window. Anyway, they pull up to 1 LeFrak City and there's probably 60 cops. Sergeants, lieutenants, captains, inspectors, all of them, lined up with their brass on, all in uniform. I'm like, "What the fuck is this? For a drug test? Little strange." I get outta the car, I go, "I could just... I can't dump it here. Th- Here, they're, they're ev- they're every- I can't even dump the coke." So I get upstairs to, uh, 16th floor and there's the lieutenant who's been waiting for me for years. He goes, "Dowd, how are you?" I go, "Good, sir. How are you?" He goes, "Good." He hands me the cup to go take a piss. Now, I had just done a bump and a, and a fucking, and a vodka, so I knew I was hit. I turn around, in, in walks my mother's cousin from Suffolk County Police Department and says, uh, "Mr. Dowd, you're, you're under arrest for conspiracy to distribute narcotics."

Steven Bartlett 57:13 So did you think you were going to jail for the rest of your life at that point?

Mike Dowd 57:16 No. I didn't think... I di- I didn't think a week. I didn't think a day. I figured, "I'm gonna make bail and I'm gonna beat the charge." That's how I'm

Mike Dowd 57:23 thinking.

Steven Bartlett 57:23 How did it feel when you got arrested?

Mike Dowd 57:28 It was the biggest moment of relief. You know, you asked about, uh, s- life changing, you know, um, l- lowest points. This was the best feeling in the world almost. Like, almost. Like, I was like, "Finally it's over. It's finally over. I can go on with my life somehow." I didn't know it would take fif- almost 15 years, well, even more when you think about probation and a lot of other shit.

Steven Bartlett 57:56 You were relieved.

Mike Dowd 57:58 When I was going to work every day, I was going to work with anxiety and fear. I no longer had to have that fear. It was gone. Of course, I didn't know what I would be facing. I figured this will work out. Like, that's how I thought.

Steven Bartlett 58:13 You know when you say you, you're going to work with anxiety and fear, earlier on you said you weren't scared of being arrested.

Mike Dowd 58:18 I wasn't scared of being arrested. I was afraid of ruining my life.

Steven Bartlett 58:22 Okay.

Mike Dowd 58:23 And living a double life, you know, I'm lying to my wife, I'm lying to my family, I'm lying to the department, I'm lying to myself, I'm lying to my young child, two children at this point. You know, everything's a lie. So this anxiety and fear in that, the fear of arrest really never entered my mind.

Steven Bartlett 58:40 It's funny when you describe being arrested and you, you reference it almost like it was your moment of freedom.

Mike Dowd 58:46 I still do today, yeah. It was the best thing to ever happen to me. If I could capsulize, put that in a bottle, the peace I had at that moment, I could probably live in that peace my entire life and wish for that peace. The peace that comes over you when that pressure comes off your life 'cause I no longer have to live a lie.

Steven Bartlett 59:09 Obviously, most people can't relate, um, because they've never been in such a situation where they've been, like, arrested, um, but I think to some degree people can relate with the feeling of living a life that's, like, inauthentic to them and then something happening which forces them to course correct.

Mike Dowd 59:26 Yeah. I mean, some people kill themselves.

Steven Bartlett 59:28 Yeah.

Mike Dowd 59:28 Other people overcome it and become the better version of themselves. Either they make lemonade out of the lemons or they go on to become ruinous. So, and I told you, I'm looking for that diamond in that pile of shit. So, to me it was freedom. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 59:44 How

Steven Bartlett 59:45 old's your child now? Your son?

Mike Dowd 59:46 I have two. My oldest son is, uh, he'll be turning 40 and, uh, my younger son is 33 or 4.

Steven Bartlett 59:54 So what advice, based on your experience in that moment, would you give to your kids about living an authentic life and lying?

Mike Dowd 1:00:04 So it's... And you'll know this from life itself. It's, it's easier to tell the truth in the end than it is to lie because you have to remember the lies every day and live with the pressure of being uncovered. So accept the hard knocks that come along with living honestly and, um, you'll t- you'll turn out to be a per- better person. So, so part of my lesson is if you don't have any bumps in the road of life, you really don't know that much about life, right? You don't know ho- you have to learn how to overcome adversity. So go ahead, live a good life, do the best you can, and if there comes a point where you want to, let's say, experiment with something or, or take risks, just accept the consequences. If you're gonna stick up a bank, there's gonna be consequences maybe.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:55 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 1:00:56 And if there isn't any consequences, it's gonna haunt you.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:59 There will eventually be a consequence.

Mike Dowd 1:01:00 It- there's always a consequence. Everything has a cost.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:03 I think about that just in day-to-day interactions that it's like...... it's easier to have the difficult conversation now versus avoiding it, and then it becomes an even more difficult situation.

Mike Dowd 1:01:13 You're logical. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:14 Yeah.

Mike Dowd 1:01:14 You're logical. People that live in fear of consequences, they don't think of that. They think of the immediate consequences, immediate gratification. A guy wants to get high because he wants to feel this now, but he doesn't realize that later on, that cost, the consequence to that, job, career, freedom, future, you know, relationships, all the damage that one incident can cause. But if you own up to something immediately and accept the responsibility for it, people have a choice then.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:48 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 1:01:48 "You know who I am. You can either interact with me or not. But I don't have to l- have a false front on when I speak with you or interact with you."

Steven Bartlett 1:01:57 That must be quite a challenge, though, for you t- today because y- you know, you now go on podcasts, you interview, talk about what happened in your life, and you... There's a lot of things that you did that are hard to say, but you're also battling with this new reality of being honest-

Mike Dowd 1:02:12 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:12 ... about everything.

Mike Dowd 1:02:13 Yes. So it's not hard for me to say anymore because if you choose to have a conversation with me about those things, you're gonna hear things that you may or may not like, but you chose to be in this conversation, (laughs) you, your audience, people that... Listen, there's a lot of people that hate me out there. But I know this for a fact: I have people today reaching out to me that have attempted suicide 10, 15 times, cops that have tr- w- go, had the gun in their mouth, and then their son walked in the room, and then th- I spoke to them the next day. I mean, if... I can go down a list of them. So you never know what being honest and fully disclosing the, the tragedy of life or the experiences of life can do for the next person. And so that's really where I'm so happy that I've been able to do that. I have a purpose, and it, it keeps me connected. You know, look, once you're a cop, you're sort of always a cop in a way. When there's gonna be cops, "He never was a cop. He's a bad guy." Well, you know what? Fuck you.

Mike Dowd 1:03:10 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:03:10 You eventually get released on bail after that first arrest, which I think comes to a lot of people's surprise because I think some people told, thought that you were gonna be in prison for the rest of your life.

Mike Dowd 1:03:19 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:19 But your family put up some assets to-

Mike Dowd 1:03:21 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:21 ... get you out on bail. That was a $350,000 bail.

Mike Dowd 1:03:24 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:25 It doesn't straighten you up?

Mike Dowd 1:03:27 No. When I got out on bail, I'm clear-headed, but I don't know what to do because I'd never been in this situation. I don't have a job. I have two, three mortgages to pay. I have a condo on the ocean in Myrtle Beach. I have three homes. The tenants stopped paying the rent because they saw I was arrested. Now I'm back in the chase again, to, to try to get my life back together, and then it turns into... A whole new scenario comes my way. I'm out on bail. I end up making a plan to go to Nicaragua so I could become a shrimp fisherman.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:58 Wait, let's pause there a second. So you're out on bail, and you plan to escape the US.

Mike Dowd 1:04:02 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:03 Which means that you'd be escaping your charges.

Mike Dowd 1:04:05 Correct. But I can't go if I don't pay my family back. I can't leave them homeless.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:11 Okay, so when you go out on bail, your family are basically guaranteeing-

Mike Dowd 1:04:15 The money.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:16 ... the money.

Mike Dowd 1:04:16 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:17 So if you don't return from bail-

Mike Dowd 1:04:18 They gotta sell their homes to pay my bail.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:20 They've gotta get $350,000.

Mike Dowd 1:04:22 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:23 So what you wanna do is you wanna get $350,000, give it to your family-

Mike Dowd 1:04:26 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:27 ... so that you can escape the US?

Mike Dowd 1:04:28 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:29 Okay.

Mike Dowd 1:04:29 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:30 And how do you plan to get that $350,000?

Mike Dowd 1:04:32 (laughs) There's a scenario comes my way. There's a woman that owes this drug organization half a million in cash and 10 kilos. All we have to do is go get the money from her and the drugs, and I could pay my family back, and we can, I can leave the country, and Kenny's gonna join me. My partner's back in. But that wasn't the plan. The plan was never to kidnap her. The plan was to go in with some flowers, push her out of the way, take the money and the drugs. But Kenny was working for the federal government right now wearing a wire. He called me up for the drugs. That brought me into his conspiracy, and they made me the kingpin of his conspiracy.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:13 How long had you known Kenny?

Mike Dowd 1:05:15 I had known Kenny since 1985, so now it's 1992.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:20 So you'd known him a long time?

Mike Dowd 1:05:21 Yeah, seven years.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:22 You'd been friends a long time?

Mike Dowd 1:05:23 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:24 And Kenny intentionally wears a wire-

Mike Dowd 1:05:28 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:28 ... and pulls you into a conspiracy-

Mike Dowd 1:05:30 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:30 ... working with the police-

Mike Dowd 1:05:32 With the federal government, yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:33 ... where they're trying to get you to potentially kidnap this woman, steal her stuff.

Mike Dowd 1:05:36 Yes. Correct.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:38 And the whole-

Mike Dowd 1:05:38 And leave, and leave the country. So what does that do? That makes me a... Takes me from a low-life drug dealer to a low-life kidnapping murderer guy, so then I'll never go home. You see? You see how they... They're good. They're good. They take you from being a drug dealer who's gonna get 15, 20 years to a murderer kidnapper.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:56 You took the bait though?

Mike Dowd 1:05:57 Took the bait. Swallow it like a pig.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:00 So you've left jail. You're out on bail.

Mike Dowd 1:06:03 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:03 Kenny starts putting in your head this idea-

Mike Dowd 1:06:06 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:07 ... of potentially kidnapping or stealing from this woman.

Mike Dowd 1:06:10 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:10 You don't know he's working for the police. And on the day of this attempted kidnap/robbery-

Mike Dowd 1:06:15 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:16 ... you're arrested.

Mike Dowd 1:06:18 Correct. Again.

Mike Dowd 1:06:20 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:06:20 Again.

Mike Dowd 1:06:20 Again. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:06:21 And how, and how does it feel the second time you're arrested? Relief again?

Mike Dowd 1:06:25 No. (laughs) Now I'm angry. Now I'm pissed off. I'm pissed off because I'm... You gotta realize, I'm a rat in a corner trying to get out. You throw some cheese in front of me. I go and eat the cheese, and then you poison the cheese, which is Kenny bringing the fucking poison pill to me of this kidnapping theory that unfolds.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:50 Why did you take the bait there? Why didn't you just... 'Cause you talked to me... You said you had relief when you were arrested that first time.

Mike Dowd 1:06:55 That I... Listen, that's the dichotomy of this whole thing. It was the greatest relief of my life, but I jumped back in like a fool. Uh, it was f- You know, the word "fear" always comes out first for me. Fear of not being able to provide for 'em. Now I got a wife and two kids.... 'cause I, I was told I'm getting 25 to life, by the State of New York. That'll make anybody consider running, I don't give a fuck who you are. Now you're a police officer in your 30s, 25 to life. You know, all right, so you know you're getting 25, so maybe 30. So now I'm 30-something years old, if I get out at 60, maybe, if I live through it. I'm looking to go, bottom line. Now whatever o- opportunity comes along, I'm looking to hit on it, whatever I can do. So I'm like that fish that they dangle that bait, eventually a fish is gonna bite that hook.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:43 What happens to the bail? D- d- do your family get to keep their money?

Mike Dowd 1:07:46 Yes, because I, uh, got arrested, 'cause I got arrested. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:07:51 Eventually you're convicted of racketeering, organized ... which is basically organ- an organized crime scheme-

Mike Dowd 1:07:55 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:55 ... and conspiracy to distribute narcotics.

Mike Dowd 1:07:57 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:58 You serve 12 years and five months in prison.

Mike Dowd 1:08:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:01 That day you went to prison, if I'd asked you, "How long do you think you're going to be here?" what would you have said?

Mike Dowd 1:08:06 So when I was sitting there waiting to get sentenced, I'm thinking I'm only gonna get seven, eight years. And, uh, sure enough, she was firm and gave me what she d- thought I deserved. "Uh, Mr. Dowd, that's 168 months." So I'm going, "What the fuck's 168 months?" And she knew it. She goes, "That's 14 years."

Steven Bartlett 1:08:25 How did you feel when you hear- heard that?

Mike Dowd 1:08:27 I was devastated. I was devastated. Uh, you don't know how you're gonna react. I was pissed and devastated and ... Uh, h- how ... I, I, I gotta survive this. Like, now you go right into survival mode. "I gotta survive this and how am I gonna do that?"

Steven Bartlett 1:08:45 People often think if you're like a cop and you get sent to, to prison, that you're gonna have a really hard time.

Mike Dowd 1:08:51 You are.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:52 Did you have a hard time?

Mike Dowd 1:08:52 Yeah. But I was fortunate enough that ... See, I went to prison as a, as basically a racketeer, right? So, and, and, and I worked with Dominican drug gangs. 30% of the population is Dominican/Puerto Rican/drug dealers, in that realm. Then you have your street peddlers which are, wouldn't be the same, uh, level. And then you have your white-collar guys and your bank robbers. So I was, I was a cop sent to prison. I wasn't sent, sent to prison as a police officer for violating human rights, for beating and abusing individuals.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:27 Yeah.

Mike Dowd 1:09:27 I was sent to prison for doing what everybody else in there was doing. So the learning was a little bit different. Now don't say ... It was not easy. I didn't have people opening a welcoming mat for me. But there were some people who were kind, and that helped make, made my bid go well.

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Steven Bartlett 1:10:46 What about your family at this point, your mum and dad, right?

Carol Dowd 1:10:50 Okay.

Mike Dowd's father 1:10:52 Just watch your head.

Carol Dowd 1:10:53 Yes. Okay. I'm Carol Dowd, and, uh, I'm Michael Dowd's mother. Well, I remember being in court. I only went to court once, and that was the day of sentencing. And when they said the amount of days he would be away, I didn't really ... It didn't, like, hit my mind, right? Because it was in days, it wasn't in years, you know? And somebody says, "That could be 15 years." And we tried to deal with it the best we could.

Mike Dowd's father 1:11:29 Everything was going smooth in our lives, and then all of a sudden, this hit. When I saw him, uh, I guess my first reaction was, "I love him, but I wanna just reach in through, through (laughs) the bars, uh, who, between us and say, 'What did you do this for?'" You know? I can, I can only imagine-

Carol Dowd 1:11:47 Yeah.

Mike Dowd's father 1:11:47 ... the, the emotions that must go through your head when you, when you find out something like that.

Carol Dowd 1:11:52 Yeah. It's, it's terrible. Believe me, it's terrible, especially when you think you're dealing with something else. You're dealing with a kid who was honest and reliable and smart and good. Absolutely shocked. I was angry, very angry at him. "How could you do this?" You know, that type of thing.

Mike Dowd 1:12:17 She took eight months to come see me.

Steven Bartlett 1:12:19 Eight months?

Mike Dowd 1:12:20 Yeah. And then she finally came, and she o- she didn't wanna let me go. You know, that was tough. She had ... She went to church every day. 12 years. (crying) She's 84. (exhales)

Mike Dowd 1:13:09 That's tough. (crying) Yeah.

Carol Dowd 1:13:20 Why, why do you think that, that moved him so much? I, uh, I don't think he ever really sits back and thinks about the other people. You know, the other people in his life: his father, his mother, his family. It was all about him. It wasn't about anybody else around him. How does that make you feel when you see, see him? It made me feel glad that he felt sorry. 'Cause he never really says this in front of us, but it made me feel glad that he remembered that I went to church and prayed for him. He had good parents, believe me, and I don't know why this happened to him. He was a skinny little kid on the corner with a police uniform on, and the authority, I guess, went to his head. (laughs) I'm not sure.

Carol Dowd 1:14:14 You know?

Mike Dowd 1:14:15 She's always the, uh... Mom was always the (exhales) the weathervane of what's right and wrong, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:14:24 Mm-hmm.

Mike Dowd 1:14:27 I've lived with my mother my whole fucking life (laughs) 'cause she always kept me on track and tried. You bastard, you. You know, she's tough. She's still tough. (sighs) But she had to fucking get me, you cocksucker.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:48 (laughs) "You cocksucker."

Mike Dowd 1:14:50 (coughs) You fucking prick, you know.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:52 I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's so interesting to see, to see that re- that emotion because it, it really tells me a lot about the relationship you have with this woman. I don't even know this woman, but I can see the relationship.

Mike Dowd 1:15:06 We fight every fucking day still. (cries) My father leaves the room, we'll be... (laughs) He's like... He's like, "You guys are always fighting." "Well, that's, uh, that's what your mother does," you know? 'Cause she's the one who keeps you to the mat, you know? She puts you on the mat. My father, "Ah, it's okay. We'll get over it," you know? But my mother, she holds you to account. My mother holds you to account.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:34 But she loves you still. She went to church for... every day