The Diary of a CEODame Dash: The Man That DISCOVERED & Built Jay-z & Kanye West! | E192
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,007 words- 0:00 – 2:06
Intro
- DDDame Dash
Kanye's whole thing is "I don't give a fuck." Art is something that you really fight for if you love it, even if your message is misunderstood.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like White Lives Matter?
- DDDame Dash
He's an artist that likes war. (instrumental music)
- NANarrator
Oh!
- DDDame Dash
Dave Dash in the fucking buildin'!
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the founders of Roc-A-Fella, Rocawear. He discovered Jay-Z, Kanye West, and so many others. One of the biggest pioneers in hip-hop.
- DDDame Dash
I took Jay-Z and shopped him to every single label and they all said no. (record scratching) I had to do it myself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I really want to understand why Roc-A-Fella won.
- DDDame Dash
I did partnerships with my artists. "I'm giving you all the rights to my records, my art, and then you're gonna give me 10% of my art." That just didn't make sense to me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That whole stint of your career, the Roc-A-Fella chapter, do you have any regrets surrounding that when you look back?
- DDDame Dash
I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have been so generous with Jay. It was more friendship for me and money for him, but he did things that I thought he would never do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are those?
- DDDame Dash
I'm just saying this. Let me just say this. (record scratching)
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was the hardest moment in your life?
- DDDame Dash
When Aaliyah died. That breaks my heart.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Singer/actress Aaliyah is killed in a plane crash. I tried to play out what that would feel like for me.
- DDDame Dash
Don't, don't do it. You don't wanna, you don't wanna go there. It's a, it's a pain that you don't, couldn't understand. (instrumental music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Before this episode begins, I just wanna say a huge thank you to all of our new subscribers. 74% of you that watch this channel didn't subscribe before, and we're now down to about 71%. So, that helps us in a number of ways that are quite hard to explain, but simply, the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests get. So if you haven't yet subscribed to The Diary of a CEO, if I could have any favors from you, if you've ever watched this show and enjoyed it, it's just to, to please hit the subscribe button. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music) Dame,
- 2:06 – 11:43
Early years
- SBSteven Bartlett
I always believe that in order to understand a man you have to understand their earliest context, because as childhood psychology often asserts, that's really when, um, our character and our, our shape is formed. So can you take me back to your earliest context, the context that's most relevant to who you went on to become in your life back in Harlem, um, on 109th & 1st Street?
- DDDame Dash
My first, like, real memory of who I am is I remember being, like, four, and I was in nursery school, and the teacher yelled at me, or I got in trouble, and I felt embarrassed. I felt uncomfortable. And I remember saying to myself at, as a four-year-old, "I'm never gonna feel embarrassed again. Ever." I didn't like the way it felt. You know like when Fred Flintstone used to get yelled at and he'd start shrinking? And I just was like, "I'm never gonna put myself in a position to let any adult, teacher, whatever... I'm never gonna be embarrassed." I just hated that. I remember not liking that feeling. And I think that was the last time I felt it. Pause.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) And how did that... So that presumably impacts your relationship with authority figures as well?
- DDDame Dash
It just means I don't care what anybody thinks. So no matter what, regardless to what, you're not gonna make me feel as less of who I am. I know who I am. So there was no way that teacher was gonna make me feel small just because they were a teacher and I was a student. There was no way that they were gonna make me feel less of myself. I was never gonna let another person make me feel bad about myself ever again. The last time that happened, I was four years old. But what I saw was, as I got older, that this is the way people live their life, fear of what people think of 'em. And that's the reason why they don't say what they feel, that's the reason why they internalize, and that's the reason why they end up depressed. So, as long as you're expressing yourself, as long as you don't care, as long as you're not hurting anybody, there's no pain to feel. It's almost like at that point I sprayed this thing called "I don't give a fuck what anybody's thinkin' spray." And I think that's been the most important thing, is not to care about the judgment of other people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about your parents? Could they tell you what to do?
- DDDame Dash
Well, m- my... Of course, as a child, but my mom died when I was 16, so I was still a child. So at that point, I was making money. You know, the last time anyone could tell me what to do would be the last time someone was paying my bills. So if you paying my bills, then you could tell me what to do (laughs) . And I've never put myself in a situation like that as an adult for someone to be able to tell me what to do. They could give me advice. My parents could give me advice, but, you know, at 16 or 17, after my moms died, I was gettin' more money than my dad. You know? So at that point, it's hard to listen to people that are older than you that hasn't, that haven't, uh, got to the place you wanna go. And as a child, you become very arrogant when you can do adult things. But my mother was the one that taught me to never ever, ever let someone tell you something that you don't believe without saying how you feel about it. And, you know, almost where it made it to where we might have had almost a somewhat disrespectful relationship, because I would talk back. But, you know, in school, I would talk back. If I didn't agree with you, I was letting you know. And I'd be like, "My mother taught me that." You know what I mean? So I was basically taught to talk back.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're a father now. When you, when you look back on-
- DDDame Dash
I've been a father. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Yeah, I can tell.
- DDDame Dash
I should be a grandfather.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- DDDame Dash
I just, you know, I just... My, my last, my newest child, uh, uh, you know, I'm at f- I had him when I'm 50. I'm 51.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Five kids?
- DDDame Dash
Yeah. Last time I counted.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you look back on, um, your own relationship with your parents and how... Now that you're, uh, you know, you're a father, you've got kids of your own, how, in hindsight...... did that shape you. The relation- the dynamic between your parents, but also their relationship with you. Is there anything you look back and say, "Well, because of that, I became this"?
- DDDame Dash
Oh, everything on- I have a tattoo on my arm that says, "Thank you for making me the man I am." So yeah, I got my sense of humor from my father, and I got my hustle from my mother, period. And yeah, you become a combination of the people that influence you the most. That's why you have to be important- I mean, it's important that you're cognizant of what you do when you realize that people are actually influenced by you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DDDame Dash
You know what I mean? You never wanna do something that you don't want the people you love to do, 'cause they're gonna do exactly what you do. So I got a little bit of that. You know, my mom, she was like, you know, an entrepreneur. She always made sure I had everything. She sold things, you know what I mean? Not drugs, but like, you know, like, uh, clothes. You know what I mean? But like, at flea markets and stuff, and she was real innovative about it. She did this thing once, we went to a flea market, and she took a hula hoop and put a curtain on it, and we would stand up, and it made into a dressing room. And that day she sold all of her jeans. She made $800 that day, I remember, at Aqueduct. So, you know, I've always had that hustle and bustle from my moms and, and, and, and doing things different at an early age made me know that that's the only way you could do it right, like standing in, like if you don't stand out, then you're just atmosphere in a crowd. But when you do things different, then people are drawn to you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things I've- I've thought about since growing up is how a lot of the things that I value most as characteristics in myself probably came from what the world would consider to be mistakes that my parents made. So one of them being like, not being around made- makes you independent or, you know, maybe being a workaholic may- maybe makes the kid a workaholic, or maybe not having money gives you drive. When you think about the things that wouldn't be in that, like, parenting handbook of how to raise a child that ultimately served you and made you, you know, the man you are today, a- is there anything there where you go, "A mistake made me brilliant"?
- DDDame Dash
Yeah. Every mistake that I had to fix made me brilliant. It makes you a boss 'cause that's a boss's job is to, like, untie knots. Um, you know, your job as a parent is to make sure your children never have to go through the same problems that you went through, is to break cycles. But first you kinda have to understand what that cycle is. So as an adult that had children, I was, you know, I ain't gonna, like, shit on my dad, but if I were him, I would've been in my life a little more. And you can look at a, like, you know, there's this thing, like, you know, if- if your father's an alcoholic, you could either become an alcoholic because of it or just never touch drinks. It c- it depends on how things affect you. So, you know, the way he parented and the way I knew (clears throat) , and I was conscious about the way it made me feel, I knew what not to do to my children or what not to, you know, be absent or how- when I should be consistent. You know, the cycle that I've wanted to break was that cycle where, you know, your mother tells you not to like your father, and your father's telling you certain things about your mother, and those are the people that you love the most and only thing you want as a child is for your parents to get together. That's all you want. So, you know, it took me to have five kids to have, uh, a good, um, relationship, a good, um, you know, one that's not so traumatizing for the child, a functional relationship. It took me five to- to be 50 to get there. But each one of those children, the other four children, I knew that I was like, "Damn, I- I-" You know, even though I've been able to make it where they've never had to sell drugs, and they've had the best educations, and lived that 1% of life, but I, I wasn't able to break that cycle. The thing that hurt me the most was the separation of my parents and the beef. I wasn't able to break that cycle, so, you know, I- I wasn't gonna stop till I did. It was almost like with every child, I became a better parent. But knowing that the breakup of my mother and father affected my mother for the rest of her life, which affected me. You know what I'm saying? And I didn't wanna ever do that to my, to my, um, to my children. And then also, being a visiting dad is whack. You wanna wake up with your child. You wanna watch your child grow and evolve, you know? Buying and, and, and, and providing physical things, a kid doesn't even care about that. That's not currency to a kid. They don't even know about money until you tell 'em about it. All they care about is your time, and that's the most valuable thing is, you know, the love that you can give your child. So, you know, at some point you might think, "Okay, I'll sacrifice time with my child because I gotta make money to support 'em," but the kid don't care about that, you know? The kid just wants you to be there to support 'em.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you learn, did you learn about emotions and affection and how to express yourself from, from your parents? Was that, was that something that you were able to do as a young man well?
- DDDame Dash
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't put a title on it like, "Oh, this is affection." But I've always been able to express myself in any way, you know, whether I'm crying or whether I'm cuddling, you know, I- I don't have any, uh, problems about being and- and showing what I feel in that moment. Unless it's the police. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're, you're s- you're 16, 16 years old when your mother passes away?
- DDDame Dash
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- 11:43 – 16:14
Losing your mother
- SBSteven Bartlett
How does, how does that change you? O- from everything I've read about that time in your life, she was, she was everything. And I r- I read that you'd said that that was your biggest fear when you were a young man, was losing your mother.
- DDDame Dash
Yeah. Yeah, it made me a beast. It made me fearless. You know, it's like a gift and a curse of facing your nightmares early because then you have nothing else to be scared of. So, you know, when my moms died, (clears throat) I-Again, I didn't really care if I died because I'd be like, "Oh, shit," I'd- I'd be with my moms. So I didn't... I had no fear of anything at that point. And I knew how I would react, you know, 'cause sometimes you- you don't know how you're gonna react in certain situations. So I knew how- how I could get over it. Not get over it, but live with it. And also, it makes you appreciate what a real problem is. (laughs) You know? Like, yo, like after my moms died, I was like, "Yo, if nobody's dying, I don't really wanna hear about it." It could be fixed. I'm not gonna ever be unhappy unless it has something to do with health, death, or freedom. You know what I'm saying? But other than that, nothing's gonna ever make me worry. Like, I'm not gonna be o- Like, a lot of people overreact to problems 'cause they never had any.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DDDame Dash
They don't know what a problem is and then they make something that's light feel like it's the worst thing in the world. And I'm not gonna ever do that because I appreciate when things are good. (laughs) You know what I'm saying? It be like just in any second some shit could happen that's fucked up. So in between those moments that you can't control, you have to enjoy life to the fullest, 100%. But sometimes you have to actually go through some pain early so you understand how to appreciate life moving forward. Same thing with me losing my girl, losing Aaliyah, you know, (exhales) it wasn't a pain I thought that I would ever feel of, you know, you don't anticipate, like, losing your girl. But once you do, you, once you get a girl again, you don't let go and you appreciate love. You know, shit has to be taken from you thing- things that are free, you find are priceless (laughs) when they get taken from you. Like freedom and people you love, you know? And then you be like, "What was I complaining about?" You know, I was rich, I was wealthy 'cause I had love and now I don't and there's no money in the world that could bring it back. You know? Once your health is gone, it don't matter, you will spend any amount of money to get your health back if you sitting in the bed compromised. Once your freedom is taken, you'll spend any amount of money to get outta jail, all of it, 'cause you can't spend none of it while you in jail other than on commissary, which is, you know... And then, again, lose a friend, lose someone you love, you'll do, you, if you could do any... You'd spend anything in the world to get that person back. But then you have to actually lose 'em to realize how much and how g- how, how lucky you were to have 'em. So I try to appreciate life in the moment. I do appreciate life in the moment 'cause I be like, "What if this was taken from me?" Then I'd be sick, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
16 years old, losing your mom in that context in Harlem, how- how do you, how do you, how do you grieve that? Nobody teaches you how to grieve.
- DDDame Dash
Sell drugs.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sell drugs?
- DDDame Dash
Yeah. That's how I grieved. I was like, "Yo, I'm gotta go get money." (laughs) You know what I'm saying? And, you know, at- at that point, in that moment, I thought, 'cause I was younger, that money meant happiness. So I would do anything for it in that moment. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I was selling drugs, I was risking my freedom and my life and hurting other people. So that's how I did it, you know? Just occupying my time and moving forward, period.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that- is that grieving or is that a distraction?
- DDDame Dash
I don't know what you call it at that age, it's calling getting through it. So yeah, it probably a distraction, you know? But again, like what I'm- what you gonna do at 16? To me, you know, I didn't have the money for a therapist or the hindsight to go get one in that moment, so I just sold drugs.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that what you think, in hindsight, you needed? A therapist?
- DDDame Dash
I didn't need anything. I- I like where I'm at now. I think every lesson that I've learnt to get me to this place has been perfect for me and for the world. The world learns as I learn. That's the guy that I've become. I don't call them losses, I call them learning experiences. But when you do that publicly and you could always land, or you always land back on your feet, the rest of the world learns from that.
- 16:14 – 21:10
What is your dark side
- DDDame Dash
- SBSteven Bartlett
Tim Grover, who, um, trained MJ and Kobe, said to me that y- you know, you look into people's early years and you'll find, you'll find trauma and things that have happened, and pain, and it will be the, often be responsible for their, as he called it, their light side. The thing that makes them great and famous and resilient and successful and win the gold medals. But then that- that thing is also responsible for their dark side, which can be the, you know, it can be the insecurities, it can be the- the things that are less, um, admired. Do you agree with that? And if so, um, what is your dark side?
- DDDame Dash
Well, you know, I think it's natural to be worried when things are going good for a second because it's happened when things are going good and (snaps fingers) I've been devastated. But in that moment, I say, "It's normal for you to think like that. You've been through it." I think only dark side is people triggering me. That, you know, when I feel someone's not doing right by me or by people that I love, I- I can get triggered pretty... I get triggered. It's hard to control that side.
- SBSteven Bartlett
W- why? Why can you get easily triggered?
- DDDame Dash
I probably because I've... there's been things that have been bothering me for a while. You know, when you're in the street, you have to make examples of people. So any kind of weakness means that more people are... it makes you like a magnet for pain. Like, people trying to rob you or think you soft or whatever. Especially when you run a crew, you know? So you always have to be the strongest, you have to be willing to do anything that you're sending someone else to do. You know what I'm saying? So in the street, y- y- you know, it's- it's swing now, think about it later. It's survival mode. And what happens is just 'cause you're out of survival mode, your muscles and your natural instincts still do survival mode at times. So I've had to get therapy to, you know, be like, "Yo, you're not in the street." To be able to say that like, "Yo, you're not in the street," so you don't have to deal with things that way anymore.... but if you've seen in my careers, you know, it'd be a lot of yelling 'cause I would rather p- uh, like, when I'm really yelling, it would be me, like, in the street, I would have put my hands on you. So instead of me yelling, I mean, instead of me putting my hands on you and going to jail, I would just yell or snap. So I had to actually ... 'cause it's a different game in the street than it is in business, and the rules are different. Like, you know, being disrespectful is almost part of, like, traditional corporate business. The shit that you do every day in corporate business will get you put in a trunk in the street, and if you come from the street and you have to be like, "Ugh, that hurt," like, "I would have really ... I can't hurt you, I can't hit you, I can't do nothing, I can't defend myself, I gotta go through a lawyer for this?" It could become traumatizing, and you have to internalize a lot. So, disrespect triggers me. And, you know, people trying to control a narrative by tricking you into thinking you're not sh- great when you really are. You know how many people have tried to convince me I'm not a superhero, and I know I am? I'm that man.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why is that an i- an important belief for you?
- DDDame Dash
Because I'm always fighting for the culture. That's what a superhero does, you know, or a general. Like, you know, back in the Roman days, no matter how much money you had, you were not famous unless you fought for your country and won a war for your country, for something you loved, you know? And for me, I'm a person that loves a lot, not just country. I love culture. I love a lot. I love art. There's so much for me to fight for. (laughs) You know what I'm saying? It's like I just can't look the other way from things that affect me and my culture and things that people I love. It's hard. I think a lot of conditioning happens when you see things are wrong and you gotta look the other way for survival, and I've just never been that guy. And I don't come from a family or a bloodline of people that have ever been abused, that have ever been bullied. I come from a bloodline of people that bully the bully, that oppress the oppressor. Like, we look for people that think they tough 'cause we really think they are not, just based on the overcompensation. You know what I mean? So it's not in how you, like, project, project yourself or act. It's really about what you do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If I'd asked you when you were 16, 17, after your mother passes, what you're going to be when you're older-
- DDDame Dash
I'd have said, "Great. I'm gonna be great. I'm gonna be Dame Dash." I didn't know what I was gonna be. At 16, I just knew I was gonna be great.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How could you be so sure?
- DDDame Dash
How could you not be so sure? I'm Dame Dash.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DDDame Dash
(laughs) You know what I'm saying? Like, my narrative never been losing. You know, when you start out winning, and that's all you know, even when it appears you lose, if you're a winner, you're like, "I could ... I c- I just can't see myself losing. So no matter what, it's gon- I, I'm gonna end up winning. I'll learn from it. It'll be ... Be patient, but I just don't see ... I don't see losing."
- 21:10 – 26:21
Where did you get your mindset from?
- DDDame Dash
- SBSteven Bartlett
You realize that not everybody has that mindset, right?
- DDDame Dash
It's too bad for them. I don't understand why.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you understand wha- where you got that mindset from?
- DDDame Dash
I'm from Harlem. It's just a Harlem thing. I think my family, you know, and just winning, like, you know, being that kid in school that was, like, good at all the sports, that could fight, could dance, funny. You know what I mean? I just don't see myself taking an L.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That belief, has that built, built over time, like, got stronger and reinforced by success over, over and over again, like building, like this building of evidence about what you're capable of and who you are? Has it developed or was it just always solid?
- DDDame Dash
I just never thought I wasn't gonna win (laughs) like, I, I don't know. I, I mean, like, for, for someone to ask me and say like, "Oh, that's crazy that you always think you're gonna win," I, I really think that's crazy that you don't think you're always gonna win. Like, the way ... I, I see the opposite. I, I just don't understand why get into a fight that you think you're gonna lose, and life is a fight every day. So why would I get into anything thinking I'm not gonna make history? I'm, like, a little behind schedule for me right now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you mean by that?
- DDDame Dash
Well, again, in the beginning of my career, everything I did was for money. I was all about the money, and then this thing happened where it just became all about the art and being able to sustain doing what I want, being happy, and being able to create, becoming a starving artist, and just being a, someone that not exploits artists but actually is the artist. I was doing it the business way, and I was getting where I needed to go as far as touching pop culture, but the people around me were making it where I wasn't happy about it. It didn't feel good, and I decided to do it the artist way. So back then, I didn't know I would be like, "Fuck it, I just wanna be a artist." I thought if I was just doing things for money, like, imagine what I'd be in the music business right now if I just was like exploiting everyone that's not smart, you know, and taking advantage. Like, if I woulda took advantage of Jay-Z, which I probably coulda. He didn't know anything about the business. He might try to act like that now, but I, trust me (laughs) you know what I'm saying?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DDDame Dash
So, you know, if I was that person that would do anything, no integrity, no morals or scruples, I'd have billions and billions and billions of dollars. I wouldn't have taught my artists how to leverage their celebrity for their own products. I'd have just leveraged their p- their celebrity for my own. You understand? I don't, I, like, I teach my artists how to be independent of me. You understand what I'm saying? That's why the artists around me end up ha- like, usually it's the businessman that has more money than the artist, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DDDame Dash
The artists are the ones that have more money than the businessman. Obviously, I'm not the businessman. You know what I'm saying? Or else I'd have the bread. I'm the artist. It's funny how artists become businessmen. They kick the art at certain points, or who's really an artist, or what a, a real artist is. But to me, a real artist is someone that won't do nothing for money, which is me. I won't do nothing for money. I make money off the things that I love to do, off the art, and I respect the process of art.You feel me? That's why, you see, when I came in, I, I, I know the p- it's I know the process, but not of one art, of a lot. So I know the fashion art, the music art, the comic, you know, even though I don't draw, but, you know, all of these different things, I tried, I learned them from to where I could do it independently and I don't have to outsource.
- SBSteven Bartlett
At the cost of the timeline, which could've been, f- you're saying could've been faster if you'd, if you'd chosen to exploit people.
- DDDame Dash
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's a trade-off that a lotta people wouldn't have taken. They would've taken Yeah.
- DDDame Dash
biddies. That's why they miserable. Now they're on pills. Now they're not happy. Now they're paying for sex. It's just, I won't do it. (laughs) You know what I'm sayin'?
- SBSteven Bartlett
For the first pa- f- part of your career, you were, you were on the other side, right? You were the businessman, you were th- you were working with artists like Jay-Z and Kanye and many, many others, um, and you weren't in sort of artist mode as you kind of see yourself now, with the comic books and the-
- DDDame Dash
The movies.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the movies and the, the music and everything else-
- DDDame Dash
Magazines.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you're doing. Everything you're doing. It was-
- DDDame Dash
Children's books.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The, the list was so long that I, I thought just, you've never put it right into this.
- DDDame Dash
Ah, it's almost, it's like I said, it's insanity.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- DDDame Dash
It's ridiculous just the amount of things that inspire me that I think I could actually do better than everyone else.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) When you look back, though, on that, in that period from, you know, from being that 16-year-old, you go through school. I heard you got kicked out of school a lot. First-
- DDDame Dash
I got kicked outta a lot of schools.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I got kicked out of one school and then I dropped out of the next, but, um, you got kicked out a lotta schools. I can understand why from what you said about that four-year-old kid that-
- 26:21 – 29:56
What did you have above everyone else
- SBSteven Bartlett
out of that school to, you know, signing Jay-Z, building that career and, and all of that success around Jay-Z and Kanye, what was, when you look back at why you, why you versus everyone else, what did you have to, to spot Jay-Z's talent, to spot Kanye's talent, to build them into stars, to create Roc-A-Fella alongside them? What was it about you in hindsight, the characteristics of you as a person, that made you capable of doing such an endeavor?
- DDDame Dash
I mean, I just wasn't taking no. Like, if I believe someone's gonna win, I'm 100% sure that they will, and then I fight and make sure that they do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you have history in music before Jay-Z? Y- I mean, you'd done, y- you'd been successful with-
- DDDame Dash
Before being in the music business?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DDDame Dash
I got in the b- I was in the music business since I was 19. So I went from drug dealing to the music business.
- SBSteven Bartlett
D- d- do you not need any qualifications to join, to become part of the music business?
- DDDame Dash
No. You could be the dumbest motherfucker in the world. That's why so many people are there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really? You think-
- DDDame Dash
See, I mean, in the music business, the traditional music business, there are figureheads that, like, if you ask the average president of a, you know, label about P&L and quarterly le- l- you know, they won't know shit about that. (laughs) They're just there because a White company or another culture can't say that they're running Black people with a White face, so you need a figurehead there, someone that will listen to what that person's telling them w- what to do. And that's why that industry was no bueno for me. I'm like, first of all, you, I never got hired in that industry. I came as a partner. But the funny thing is they couldn't recognize me as a partner 'cause they were not, and I couldn't recognize them as generals. They'd be like, "Yo, how you gonna talk to... You're a soldier. How could you talk to a general like that without thinking your teeth are gonna get cracked?" You understand what I'm saying?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DDDame Dash
And they didn't understand that. Like, "You don't understand. I own this shit. You work for somebody. Talk to me like the boss." And it's crazy how you will talk to the people that don't own shit like the boss. They just couldn't understand what that meant to own my actual equity, like own, have ownership, not have, sell my rights to something and then let somebody else pay me for my work. That does not logically make sense, and it never did to me. You know what that means? Like, you have a grown-ass man saying and being proud to say, "I'm signed." Does that actually sound right? "I'm signed to another man." No, it doesn't, but we, they've actually programmed us to believe it is. "You're gonna give me in advance. I'm gonna give you all the rights to my records, my p- everything that I've done, my, my art. And then you're gonna give me 10% of my art." That's what the music business is, or 8% if you lucky. That just didn't make sense to me, and I never did... I did partnerships with my artists, with the artists I work with in the businesses that I do now, just because I want people to maintain their manhood. Like, I don't ever say, "You sign to me." I don't, I'm, I'm not l- lettin', I don't like the way that sounds. So, uh, you know, even the verbiage in it, th- the whole thing, just your masters, you know what I'm saying? All of those things are like trigger words, you know, that unconsciously control us. Can we smoke in here?
- SBSteven Bartlett
If you want it, uh, we got-
- DDDame Dash
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is there... I don't Upstairs. I... Is that a fire alarm? Uh, yeah, that's it. It's my
- NANarrator
That's the no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's the fire alarm. You can't smoke.
- DDDame Dash
You're not even from here, man.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I have no idea what that is.
- DDDame Dash
Don't even get outta here. That's just, you just, you just, we're not in a hotel, okay?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is it, is it gonna go off 'cause...
- DDDame Dash
You think it'll go off?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I have no idea what that is. That's a smoke alarm. It should be fine. It is what it is, huh?
- DDDame Dash
It is what it is, e- easy enough.
- 29:56 – 40:46
Why did Roc-a-fella win?
- DDDame Dash
- SBSteven Bartlett
See? Give you this. I'm tryna, I really wanna understand (object clatters) why Roc-A-Fella won, and, you know, it's s-
- DDDame Dash
'Cause it was real.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause it was real?
- DDDame Dash
It was real, and I wasn't havin' it. (coughs) Roc-a- they weren't, no one wanted to sign... Think about how s- this is the record industry. I took Jay-Z and shopped him to every single label, and they all said no. I had to do it myself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What did they say to him?
- DDDame Dash
Either he was too old, he rapped too fast. They just didn't have it.... so we were like, "We'll do it ourself." So that's the thing. Remember when I said before, people been telling me I'm not a superhero, and I know I am. Right? So if someone told you that you couldn't sell companies and do the things that you did because to them it's superhero shit, it's a dream that can't come true for them. You feel me? Mm-hmm. Like, you've done things that people wanna do. Mm-hmm. And I guarantee you, if you came with that idea to certain people, they'd say, uh, give you t- 30 reasons why you can't do it. The reason why Rockefeller was good, the reason why I did what I had to do was 'cause I knew how to have a clear dream without anyone obstructing it. I knew how to visualize winning. So if somebody told me, "You can't do that 'cause of this," get out my dream, 'cause that's not the last thought I'm gonna have with my dream because my mind is powerful. And whatever I see in my mind, I can make happen. So what I'm living in is my dream. I dreamed about coming to London right now. In the past. This was a visualization. I didn't know exactly what I'd be doing in London, but I visualized doing a lot of shit, talking to a lot of people. You understand what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. So i- if you can't visualize winning, then you will not win. And the average person, because we're programmed not to win, 99% of us are, we don't think anyone can. So when someone does, it's amazing. But it's just a program. As soon as you're born, you know, I've said this before, you don't know about fear or what to be scared of until someone tells you what to be scared of. And a lot of what people tell you to be scared of is to actually be successful and dream and be independent and be on your own. You know, what would you... Like, if you were a conniving person that wanted to take over the whole world and you had that kind of power but th- you had to program everybody, the first thing I would do is take everybody's kids as soon as they wake up and program 'em for eight hours a day on what I want them to do. I want you to go to college. I want you to get a job. I want you to work until you're 70. I want you to be unhappy. I want you to have cr- uh, uh, uh, uh, debt. I want you to go get a loan to go to college. And then I want you to work that off. And if you don't, if you don't go to college, then you make y- you, you make y- your parents', uh, dreams into a nightmare. Most kids only go to college for their parents. You understand what I'm saying? Mm-hmm. And then you pay for that. So when I look at hieroglyphics, I never see school. I think parents love their children the most. No one's gonna love their kids more than the people that made them. Those should be the people teaching 'em. Why would you put a kid in a, a, in a, in a, in a, a room behind a desk when the sun is out for their whole entire childhood? N- not put 'em in front of water or ocean or anything that inspires 'em, dim lights? If you notice, schools, jails, and hospitals all look exactly the same. Why wouldn't it be in something inspiring? Why? Because it's a program to keep us controlled. You have to... When you have to have order of masses, you have to have 'em all doing the same thing so you can know what they doing, you can monetize what they do, and you know how they doing it. So at a very early age I was like, "Yo, all this shit y'all teaching me, first of all, none of it makes me think I'm number one." It would make me if I believed that y'all were teaching me, especially back then, that I'm number two, that I could never be a boss, that there could never be a Black president. They never teach us how to pass laws and, and lobby or be politicians, and that's the only way to make change. So it has to be strategic. So when the cycle continues over and over again without change, it's either insanity or it's intentional. Somebody's losing, which is us, but somebody's winning, which is them. And they're controlling the game. So now we have to make our own game which behooves us. But the patterns that are implemented, like you said, the DNA of who you are starts when you're a child. What happens as soon as you're four or five years old? When ch- you get taught what to read, how to read, what to do, and you're also told that the only way you could break a social class is to be an athlete or be in entertainment. And both are provided for you in school. So you just cash out and don't go to school, get an education. You go and invest all your dreams in being an athlete, which is like lotto, and when it doesn't happen, they build a jail based on those that don't graduate. That's how they build b- jail cells, which is a independent sector, wh- m- you know, meaning that, you know, it's out- you know, it's not... The government doesn't own it, and the intention is to keep those beds in those jails filled because you have a government contract. It's, it's nothing but a hotel that you wanna keep. So when you get to that jail, based on the fact that you didn't get your education, they make sure that you come back, no rehabilitation at all, and serve you bad food. No therapy, none of that shit. And it's obvious, if you study people, which people do, that you should do that different so that there would be a different result. But because there hasn't been any change made by anyone, the change has to come from us. And that's the reason why Rockefeller was successful, 'cause I wasn't with none of that. Not the education, not the programming that we should be signed, none of that shit. Not them telling me Jay was too old, all of that. You understand what I'm saying? So basically, everything I've been told has not behooved me, but everything I do has. So when I don't listen, my family eats. When I do, we don't. One of the things they don't teach us when we're, we're young is about, is about money, especially if you don't come from it and you haven't got a- Eh, and that's a business. Holding money is a business within itself. Mm-hmm. They don't teach you how to pay taxes. Yeah. They don't teach you about, um, capital gains. Yeah. They don't teach you about trust funds, none of that shit. They don't teach you how to have money 'cause they don't expect you to get none.... why, why isn't there a class on how to have money?
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do I invest it? How to pay your taxes. Yeah, I mean, I destroyed-
- DDDame Dash
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
By 18 years old, we, we have this thing called a credit score out here, I think you're having the same sort, sort of thing in the US.
- DDDame Dash
I don't have a credit score.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I destroyed mine-
- DDDame Dash
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... (laughs) very early, and then I got these two CCJs, which is a county court judgment, which sits on your credit score for six years, when I was 18 'cause I was shoplifting pizzas. I was... My parents weren't speaking to me. I was trying to start these businesses.
- DDDame Dash
How do you shoplift a pizza?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You just walk in. You, you get it in your bag, uh, dress as smart as you can so they tr- they don't lo- you're, you're still black, so they're still gonna look at you walking in the shop, but you dress as smart as you can, go around the back, put it in the bag, walk out. (laughs) That's what I was d- I just didn't have any money. But, um, but, but I, I didn't j- I destroyed my financial his- my financial credit-
- DDDame Dash
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... before I knew what it was.
- DDDame Dash
But it didn't bother you because you still did what you had to do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was convinced I was gonna make a million, millions anyway, so I was-
- DDDame Dash
So, in the street, there is no credit. There's no contracts. Your word is your contract. Your honor is... And if you come from that, like, that's the way I was introduced to life, was the honor, not the contract, not the paper, but the heart and the soul, you know? And that's another reason why I was like, "Yo, I can't be a businessman because it means my honor game is out the window."
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did you learn those lessons of business? You start Rokafella, but you haven't gone to business school.
- DDDame Dash
Selling drugs.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Selling drugs?
- DDDame Dash
Yeah. You gotta market. You gotta be consistent. You know? You gotta s- a color t- c- top, no one else could use that color. You protect it. Your brand, your work gotta be good.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Marketing, then?
- DDDame Dash
Well, that's, it wasn't, see, that's the thing about hustling. This is another thing is, like, because it's illegal, you can't do no ads.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DDDame Dash
You just gotta put out, you gotta give samples out. And once the work, once they addicted, then you raise the prices.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But the marketing of Rokafella, that was something.
- 40:46 – 44:34
Whats the right type of dream to set
- DDDame Dash
trying to fix them.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I real- that point about dreaming, I've heard you talk about visualization and dreaming and the importance that plays, and I've also saw you on a, on an interview before, you asked the, I think he was the host, the guy that said he wanted to be an actor. You asked-
- DDDame Dash
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You remember?
- DDDame Dash
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I thought that was brilliant. I watched it last night, and he's, you know... What's the right type of dream to set?
- DDDame Dash
The one that you love, what inspires you. But don't dream cheap, 'cause they don't cost a dollar. You gotta dream big. Why would you dream small? Pause. You know what I mean? Like, why wouldn't you have the perfect, best case scenario? And it has to be a selfish dream, because you can't help nobody unless you can help yourself, period. Unless you're 100, you can't help someone else be 100.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you always had a, a really crazy dream in your head?
- DDDame Dash
Yeah, I've been living it. Rokafella was a crazy dream in my head, but so was DD172. You know what I'm saying? These other art gallery- everything I'm doing right now, being a director. You know, what I do is, like, as a creative person, I, like, look at my life like a movie, and I like to play different characters. So, I got to play the gangster character early, got that out the way. I got to be a, a, a music mogul years ago, a fashion designer, a fashion mogul. You know, I started in oil. I, I sold oil for fun, you know, just to do it. You know, Web3, metaverse, the galleries, you know, with Netvork, you know, that's where I got my land in Netvork because of the utilities that it could do. It could do a lot of shit. Just playing these different roles.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where does focus come into this? 'Cause this is a-
- DDDame Dash
None. I'm insane. I don't have any focus. That's the problem. If there is a problem, that is it.I drive my staff and my crew crazy. Every day, there's a new idea, I'm inspired, and I wanna make it happen tangible or it bothers me, and I have the wherewithal to make it happen. I'm a starving artist, but starving is relative for me, you know? I'ma always have a staff that can make my dreams come true. So while I'm in London, trust me, the third edition of the magazine is being... right as we speak and right now, I can feel it actually being drawn and written, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What I came to learn, probably the hard way, about this point of focus is like, I have all these dreams and things I want to do, but they all come at the cost of the things I'm currently doing because there's 24 hours in a day, even my s- my team's time is finite. So if you're well aware that, um, f- focus is an issue for you, and that, you know, you can't do everything, how do you... h- how have you not sort of stopped to rein yourself in a little bit with all these ideas and projects you have going on? 'Cause as I said, I read the list and I was like, "Jesus, this is-"
- DDDame Dash
Sometimes I have to just, like, completely detach. So the last three months, I just left LA. I've been trying to stay away from creative things. I've been hiding my cameras from me. You understand what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DDDame Dash
I'm staying away from people that inspire me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DDDame Dash
I'm, I'm telling you. You know what I mean? I, I'm in the house looking at a lake, me and my girl, and my baby. For the last couple of years, maybe I'd say nine to 10, I've just been a creative, and I've been creating, and I haven't been outside. I haven't been trying to promote or do any of those things, but I have so many tangible, physical assets, goods that need to be sold right now, that it's time to be great. So I've proven to myself that I can be an artist. Now I need to prove to myself I can make money off being an artist.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why does that matter?
- DDDame Dash
So I can pay the bills.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DDDame Dash
So I can make more art.
- 44:34 – 45:41
How do you stay focused?
- DDDame Dash
To be able to have every single thing physically that everyone that's sold out has is important to me so people could know they could do it on their own. So if you see that... uh, Dame did it, and I'm like a regular guy to me, besides the superhero shit. But if I could do it, most people believe that they can as well. So it's important to lead by example. You know, a lot of people give these, like, classes and this, that, and the third. I'll be like, "Yo, just look at what I'm doing." I'm not talking about... like, as I'm talking, I'm like, I don't make a living from talking. I make a living from actually talking about the things I'm doing, but the living comes from the things I'm doing. You understand what I'm saying?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DDDame Dash
Like, I got shit I'm doing. Like, I'm not just... I got a movie to show you right now, three. I got a magazine to show you right now. I got a comic book to show you right now. I got a children's book to show you right now. You know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DDDame Dash
I got a whole fa- I got so many different fashion lines. You know, y- you know I have an album out right now? Cam'ron, me, Cam'ron on the A-Trak? It's called You Wasn't There. It was number one on the rap charts last week. I forgot I put that shit out.
- 45:41 – 54:03
How sustainable is your ambition?
- SBSteven Bartlett
When is enough, enough?
- DDDame Dash
Enough what, fun? It's never enough fun. If... I'm not talk... I, again, it's not like I got a bunch of bread. You know what I'm saying? If I had crazy bread, then they'd be like, "Oh, you, you..." I'm not doing it for the money. I just do it ev- every single day, there's just new shit to do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, you said before we started recording, you're, you're busy i- in your mind almost to the, the point of insanity, and when I spoke to Rock, who's your fian- fiancé-
- DDDame Dash
Uh-huh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... she said you're crazy, crazy motivated, the most driven, motivated person she's ever encountered in her life. He just never turns off. He doesn't sleep.
- DDDame Dash
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I mean, how sustainable is that?
- DDDame Dash
How sustainable has it been?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You tell me.
- DDDame Dash
You tell me. I'm 51, 52. I'm chilling.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Almost to the point of insanity though. He doesn't turn off. He doesn't sleep.
- DDDame Dash
I'm just having so much fun. And it's not like I'm like... I don't leave her though. It's not like I don't leave. I, I, I don't leave the house. I'm up working, so it's like, "Oh shit, there's music to make, you know?" Or, "Oh shit, there's a movie to make." You know, there's just so much to do, and I'm having mad fun. So my dream, like, when I'm... like literally, like physically when I go to sleep and dream at night, my life is better than anything I could be dreaming about, and I, I get... I'll be like... like literally I wake up like, "Whew, I'm glad I ain't have to stay in that." Like, "Um, is this... am I still in my house?" Like, you know what I mean? Like, I, I, I love... if, if God... listen, for me not to take advantage of all the opportunity that God has given me based on where I'm from, it would be disrespectful to the opportunities that are presented for me to sleep right now. It would be disrespectful. It's too much. Like, I, I am very aware that I live a privileged life compared to most people, because I can actually do things based on art all day. So i- it just would be disrespectful to art, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
If you... if I was c- coming up, right? So say I hadn't done anything with my life when I was a young kid, 18 years old, and I'm saying, "Dame, I've got all these ideas, you know? I've got this book, I've got comic books, the TV, the movie, da-da-da," what advice would you give me in terms of-
- DDDame Dash
I'd say focus.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting.
- DDDame Dash
But the thing about it is, the difference is, when I say I have all these ideas, I'm also showing you tangible things. Can you execute? People have ideas all day. Not many people can execute. I can. See, that's where there's a gift and a curse. Because I can finish, because I actually can do it, because I will do it. You understand what I'm saying?
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's the curse, isn't it?
- DDDame Dash
Yeah, but I love it. It's a good curse.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The reason I'm, I'm really obsessing about this topic is I've, I've been, uh, talking to my team. Some of them-
- DDDame Dash
Seems like it must be a similar, relatable problem.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's exactly why I'm, I'm really picking at it, because, you know, I-
- DDDame Dash
Don't worry about it. We're told that we can't move in 10 different dimensions at one time, but we really can.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) But what about 20?
- DDDame Dash
You could do 50.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) But then it comes at the cost of one of those... and th- that's what I've been contending with, is-
- DDDame Dash
What in life doesn't come with a cost?
- SBSteven Bartlett
So I'll give you an example. This podcast here, we could start multiple podcasts with loads of different creators.
- DDDame Dash
So do it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But even 5% of my time thinking about that problem was taken from, like, my companies.
- DDDame Dash
All right, let me show you... Let me equate that to you. So there are people that can cook very well for their family, but a real chef has to cook a thousand plates every fucking night. He does not do that on his own. He has other chefs that he teaches. So that's part of being a businessperson.
- 54:03 – 55:39
The importance of honour and loyalty
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things that your fiance said to, said to my team when we spoke to her was, was that you value that and loyalty exceptionally high.
- DDDame Dash
It's everything. I could just tell you this. Where I'm from, survival is honor. So if you don't play the game right, you end up dead or in jail, period. And you have to play the game right. Unspoken laws. Just honor. And I just always looked at people that were honorable and how cool it looks to be honorable, how fly it is, 'cause honor's not convenient, you know? It's when... It's something that's challenging and it's something that you don't wanna do, but you do it anyway because of honor.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Give me an example of what you mean when you say honor.... what is that in the streets? What is it in business to you now?
- DDDame Dash
Being a man of your word. So if you agree to something, that's it, period. See, in the street, if you give your word for th- what a real street do, that's it. You gotta give it. You know what I mean? Like, you can't, like, talk to certain people and say you're gonna do something that you're not. They coming looking for you. You said you gonna do it, you gotta do it. When I agree to do something, even... I don't even care about the money. It's th- your word. You, you lie to me, your ass is out. You're erased to me 'cause that could get you killed. That could get you put in jail. Those are characteristics of people that... Unhonorable means you're gonna tell on somebody to get yourself out of trouble that doesn't usually deserve it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I,
- 55:39 – 1:03:04
Discovering Kanye
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was watching an interview earlier on with, with Kanye, and he speaks incredibly highly of you in all of... and every time he's asked. I was actually more compelled by... You know, you're heavily credited for sort of discovering Kanye and seeing something in him, again, like Jay-Z whe- at a time when no one else did. Kanye's become this, this brand now. And he... Again, he s- stretches across multiple industries in an unbelievable way, in culture and art, in f- all these things. He's up on my wall upstairs. I've actually got a big... a, a painting from his, his show where he had that levitating stage. But what did you see in him back then that you know to be responsible for the th- the, the, the monolith that he is today? What was it about him? What made him different?
- DDDame Dash
He would listen. Kanye listened. Like, if I said, "Yo, have cameras with you," he had cameras with you. When he broke his jaw and, and I, I had to send him that... the equipment and with that... through the wire when his jaw broke, if I... I remember bringing him to London, I'd be like, "Yo, rap." He'd just jump on the table and rap, you know. And, and the thing about when you say I discovered Kanye, yeah, but I gave everyone in Rockefeller the same exact opportunity. I fought... Like, I fought for Kanye and protected Kanye, I did that for every single artist. He just chose to do, and take the opportunity and the protection, and run with it until he didn't need it anymore, and no one else did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is his brilliance, in your assessment?
- DDDame Dash
That he's so confident in his dreams that they happen, period. But, but what, what y'all might not realize about Kanye, and I'll probably leave it at that way, um, is that my personal experience with him, just watching him move around, is that he's completely committed to what he's giving you. Every single second until he passes out, he's working. He doesn't have a personal life, that I've seen. Every second's devoted to art. And it's ins- it's an... and it's an- it's insanity as well. You know, he said it. He's like, "Yo, I'm Dame Dash with a whole lot of money." And he is. But, you know, the thing is, he has a whole lot of money because he talks and works with corporate, but look how it triggers him. You know what I mean? So what it means is no matter how much money you make, if there's still somebody impeding on your art, you're gonna be unhappy. And that's why my advice is always to do it on your own just for the happiness value of it. Fuck the money. If we all said, "Forget the money," we'd make so much more.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Probably not in the short term though, right?
- DDDame Dash
But in the meantime, you're having mad fun. When you're working on your dream, money doesn't matter. If you really truly love what you're doing, if you're doing it for the love of the art, you ain't really worried about the money in that moment as long as you can continue to do it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's a trade-off though, isn't there? And I've experienced that in my life, and it's kinda what you were speaking to there with-
- DDDame Dash
It's the business side of you that keeps talking 'cause you still love money.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Me?
- DDDame Dash
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I do love money, to be fair.
- DDDame Dash
That's why you're conflicted.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. And I've taken... I think I've taken investment in all the companies and stu- no, no, not these days, but-
- DDDame Dash
Sounded like you have.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... before. Yeah. In, in the last 10 years-
- DDDame Dash
And it sound like it gets you uninspired. But that's why when you... we spoke offline and you said, "I quit my job," I was like, "Didn't you just say you sold a company? How could you still call it a job?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah. I saw, I saw the, the job as a-
- DDDame Dash
Once it's a job-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DDDame Dash
... it's not fun no more. I don't got a job.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you look at these peo- So in Kanye, you know, case, I don't wanna talk about him beyond this point, but, um, obviously it's made him a billionaire. The trade-off you're speaking to is that, you know, he's had these frictions with the corporations and stuff like that, but pl- puts him in a position now where he can, as he is doing, go it alone, being independent.
- DDDame Dash
All I'm saying is regardless to what, it ends up in war. So if you get... Either way, either you're gonna have to walk away from your company or go to war, one of the two. Correct?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Most of the time for a lot of founders, yeah.
- DDDame Dash
So who the fuck wants to do that?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. If you look at... I mean, look at Steve Jobs with Apple.
- DDDame Dash
No, look at you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He got fired from Apple as well.
- DDDame Dash
Let's talk about you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mine ended in more-
- DDDame Dash
So it sounds to me like you got... went public and got uninspired.
- 1:03:04 – 1:10:56
Kanye compared to Jay-z
- SBSteven Bartlett
That whole stint of your career, the Roc-A-Fella chapter, as it... Do you have any regrets surrounding that when you look back and think, "I wish I'd done that differently. I wish someone had told me this thing"?
- DDDame Dash
I, that's Roc-A-Fella. That shit is art. Why would I wanna mess with that? Look how it's impacted the world. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, there'll be things, certain things that, just 'cause I know better, I'd do different, but who cares, man? I was like a kid.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are those things? If you were giving me advice.
- DDDame Dash
I, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have been so generous with Jay, to Jay. It was more of friendship for me and money for him. I, and I always felt that, but I ignored it a little.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You regret ignoring that?
- DDDame Dash
I don't regret it. I just, I wouldn't have... Uh, the things that I wouldn't have let certain things happen, because I didn't think they could happen (laughs) , you know what I'm saying? Like, "Oh, he would never do that," but he did things that I thought he would never do. So now I would be like, "Oh, he would do that," and I would make sure it didn't happen. So Roc-A-Fella would probably still exist right now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I made those mistakes too-
- DDDame Dash
It's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... with business partners and stuff.
- DDDame Dash
... it is what it is. Uh, actually, the life that I got after Roc-A-Fella was so fuck- it's been so fulfilling and I've had so much fun. You know, I just opened up art galleries all over the world and made music with cool people, and I just, I just been doing cool shit for the last 10 years.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was, I was in, compelled by the, uh, what you said earlier when you said Roc-A-Fella would still exist.
- DDDame Dash
Yeah. W- Okay, you tell me what was the end of Roc-A-Fella and why it happened.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, from what I understand, and again, this is just what I've read, there was a dinner that took place between you and Jay where Jay wanted to sell Roc-A-Fella to Def Jam.
- DDDame Dash
No, that's not what happened.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay, well there you go.
- DDDame Dash
We had a d- We, we met at dinner because I had heard from L.A. Reid that Jay was like, "I'll take the job of president, but Damon and Biggs can't be down with Roc-A-Fella." And L.A. Reid was like, "Yo," and I thought John McNeilly had said the shit. (laughs) I was like, "Jay could've never said that." And we went, and he did me look- like public place, the whole shit, and told me this shit. And I, I was just like, "Fucking serious?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Jay told you that?
- DDDame Dash
He said, "Yeah, I wanna be looked at as a businessman, and as long as you're around, I can't be looked at as a businessman." But I was like, "What's that gotta do with Roc-A-Fella?" So he was like, "Yo, y'all can have Roc-A-Fella, but just give me my Reasonable Doubt masters back." I said, "Let me think about it." And I went and did a, a screening of The Woodsman, and I was like, "Yo, come with me to the screening so you can walk the carpet." He's like, "Nah, you're all dressed up," and I was like, "This nigga never helps." But my point is, regardless to what, Roc-A-Fella still existed, it's just I didn't run it. So why isn't there still a Roc-A-Fella?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Roc-A-Fella was sold, right, in the end?
- DDDame Dash
No, uh, Jay was... They gave Jay... J- It was sold, but they gave Jay to run Roc-A-Fella. So Kanye was still there, everybody was still there. Why is there no more Roc-A-Fella?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You tell me.
- DDDame Dash
Well, usually when a rapper runs, uh, other rappers, it doesn't happen, it doesn't work no more. It, it just means there was no Roc-A-Fella unless I run it. There w- That's it. So I would've continued to run it. I wouldn't have put that b- Uh, you know, I would've dealt with it different.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And how when you're going forward in, in like bus-
- DDDame Dash
But I, I didn't wanna run Roc-A-Fella no more. I was done with that. I was... At that time, I was already at Rocawear. My office was not... I wasn't fucking with music no more.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And Rocawear was making a lot of money, right?
- DDDame Dash
Yeah, but it was just more... I was just inspired. I was just sick of being in that building and dealing with dumb shit. I was done with the music business. I wanted to do fashion. I just, I was done with it, so I looked at it as an out. Like, o- ou- out of obligation, I would've still ran Roc-A-Fella because I gave my commitment, but because they was acting silly, I was like, "Yo, take it. I, I wanna go anyway." You know what I'm saying?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DDDame Dash
But, you know...
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do you feel towards Jay-Z now?
- DDDame Dash
I don't feel nothing.
- 1:10:56 – 1:17:58
I don’t trust anyone
- DDDame Dash
- SBSteven Bartlett
What did you learn from how Rockefeller came to end, about business life people?
- DDDame Dash
I didn't look at the mus-... I didn't look at that as business. That's why I was like, "It's not... they're not... it's not real business." So you got to think about it, I'm a r-... Like, at that time, I'm a real businessman, that means I want to be strategic, I want to make plans. If nobody wants to do that shit and I'm doing it on my own, it becomes very frustrating. So I had to fight for Rocawear, you know what I'm saying? It was... I had to do it on my own. I had to fight for Rocaf-... I had to do it on my own. Uh, it was just too much fighting and then fighting for the... fighting with the people that I'm fighting for, it just was, uh... you know, it was just like, "Y- I'm not fighting for a bunch of dudes." Like, it's just... you can't get... there's nothing to get from it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DDDame Dash
It's a game. So it's just like, "Yo, it's a bunch of ungrateful dudes and I can't have my daughters around these dudes." You know? I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you have trust issues in business?
- DDDame Dash
Hell, yeah. There's no trust issues. I trust no one. Y'all got, um... can I get another drink?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah. Can we pour up another drink?
- DDDame Dash
Same one? Yes, please.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We can just keep talking. It's okay, isn't it?
- DDDame Dash
Yeah, it's cool.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We can just keep talking.
- DDDame Dash
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. You said you got, you got... you don't trust anybody.
- DDDame Dash
Do you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Of course. Um, my girlfriend.
- DDDame Dash
(splutters)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DDDame Dash
Sp-... (laughs) Do you think if you make her really mad, do you think she's gonna... you, you trust that she's gonna be fair?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Fair? What do you mean by fair?
- DDDame Dash
If you do something unfair-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DDDame Dash
... will her reaction be fair?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm. Probably not.
- DDDame Dash
All right, next question. Who else?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Y- yeah. Um, I trust my-
- DDDame Dash
I mean, I trust my girl, but-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I trust Jack.
- DDDame Dash
Who?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Jack.
Episode duration: 1:36:03
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