The Diary of a CEODavina McCall: How To Overcome ANY Trauma & Live The Life You Deserve | E210
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,018 words- 0:00 – 2:19
Intro
- DMDavina McCall
I think out for everything ... she was worried about me. Do you know what I mean? Like, that was her last thought, like ... (sniffs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(instrumental music plays) Davina McCall! She's a TV presenter, a fitness fanatic. Multiple time best-selling author. Rarely off our televisions, and what you see is what you get.
- DMDavina McCall
It's good to be back. After Big Brother, I thought, "What else can I do to get famous?" So I was always a bit of a show-off. "Mum, you made a mistake. Look how great I am." That's at the back of everything.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- DMDavina McCall
Oh... I did coke with my mum at 15. I did it with my sister at 14.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You were doing drugs when you were 15?
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah, like all drugs were my problem. I'd left my job, no money. I had nothing. I will literally do anything to stop feeling like this. "I'm gonna phone someone for help. I'm fucked."
- SBSteven Bartlett
10 years ago, you lost Caroline, your half-sister.
- DMDavina McCall
It was definitely the worst thing that ever happened to me. I was just trying to be really strong for her, (sniffs) and I kept saying to her, "I'm gonna be fine." She'd put a fence around her, and I thought, "I'm fucking climbing over the fence, and I'm gonna get in." Don't wait for somebody to say that you've got six weeks to live, because the best seven weeks of my life with my sister were those last seven weeks of hers. (exhales)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one. At the start of these episodes, I told you that 74% of people who watch this channel frequently haven't yet hit the subscribe button. And I told you that the bigger the channel gets, the better the guests get, and hopefully I've delivered upon that for you. So there's two things I wanted to tell you. The first is, if you've ever enjoyed this channel, could you do me a favor, and my team here a favor? Which is, hit that subscribe button, because it helps this channel more than you know. And as I say, the bigger the channel, the better the guests. But also, we're approaching one million subscribers, and when we hit one million subscribers, we've been working for many months to do something very big in which you're all invited to. I'll reveal that when we hit a million subscribers. Enjoy this episode. (instrumental music plays)
- 2:19 – 13:59
Your most defining moment
- SBSteven Bartlett
Davina, what was your first defining moment?
- DMDavina McCall
Oh. Um, definitely, uh, realizing, the moment I realized my mum wasn't coming back to pick me up. So, I got taken to my granny's, my paternal grandmother, most amazing woman called Pippy. Got taken to her house in the country, which I knew really well. I used to spend quite a lot of time down there with her. And my mum wasn't with my dad. She was with another man, but I didn't kind of question that. I, they'd split up, but I didn't, I didn't know that or kind of understand. I don't think in my head I realized what was going on. And, um, she said, "I'm going on, on holiday, and, you know, I'll be, I'll be back." And I was like, "Okay, great." And I stayed with my granny. And then, after a couple of months, I thought, "Is she coming back?" But then I thought, I didn't want to... uh, this was such a different time. You know, I'm 55, so this would've been over 50 years ago. It was such a different time that you didn't ask people. Children didn't go, "Where's Mummy gone?" Or, "When's Mummy coming back?" I knew that I was a guest at my granny's house, but I wasn't. It had all been planned. My granny had been given my custody. My dad was coming down every weekend to, to be with me. Um, they were sort of sharing custody, but my dad was trying to make money in London, and my granny was taking care of me day-to-day. And it had all been sorted, but I didn't know that, because they just thought, "Well, she's young. She won't really remember or realize. Let's all just brush it under the carpets." And it's so interesting, 'cause nowadays with my children, everything that happens, we're like, "How'd you feel about that? Are you okay? Let's talk it through. Blah, blah, blah." Just didn't happen back in those days. So I grew up thinking that my mum had left me, um, and had never come back. So at about probably four, maybe six months after, after she'd gone, I realized that I wasn't gonna live with her again. But I was left feeling guilty, 'cause I felt like my granny was looking after me, and she didn't want me in some way. Like, not that she didn't... She was so loving to me, but somehow I was overstaying my welcome. So I think that was a defining moment, because it set up a chain of events, a fear of abandonment that kind of made me make some really stupid decisions-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DMDavina McCall
... all through my teenage years into my 20s, um, and, and something that I've worked diligently on since my early 20s to let go of.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why did your mother do that?
- DMDavina McCall
Well, my mum grew up in France with two parents who were very loving, but didn't know how to, um, give her their time. So I think my mum needed time and contact, but they just gave her a lot of money. They were, they were quite wealthy, and they just, you know, at 18, they gave her a lump sum of money. She went and spent the whole lot on clothes and Yves Saint Laurent. She got a food disorder. She was very thin. It was the '60s. She was like a model. She had a Faye Dunaway nose job. She, she was incredible-looking, lots of drugs, quite a lot of drink. Like, crazy fun lady. Met my dad. My dad was...... super hot, like, young guy. They were an it couple. He was so in love with her. She was completely out of con- probably a sex addict, when I, when I look back at her life. And unashamedly so. The French are very, she's French. French are very different about sex. She was kind of, you know, she was, "It's only bodies." That was her catchphrase, like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- DMDavina McCall
... you know, "Oh, it's only bodies." And you'd think, "No, that's someone's husband," like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
... that is, you know what I mean? So looking back, she, she wasn't well herself, but she was so young. Like, this was, we're talking 22, 23 when she met my dad. She'd already had a child at 16, been forced to marry the father of that child. They'd got divorced, then she met my dad. So she was troubled herself, right? And my dad tried to help fix her, but it just wasn't gonna work and she ran off with someone else, um, having had several affairs and everything. And my dad was broken-hearted, absolutely broken-hearted. And the courts in the UK, because I was born in the UK and had been brought up here, gave my granny and my dad custody, which was so rare.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- DMDavina McCall
So, um, uh, uh, I'm not sure how hard she fought. I'm not sure that she did. But, um, that was what happened. But I did go and see her in the holidays. But that was, phew-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What d'you mean?
- DMDavina McCall
... qu- quite crazy, like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What did you see?
- DMDavina McCall
I, oh my God, like, what didn't I see? I mean, my mum would, she would wear, this was quite a funny story. I mean, and some of it makes me laugh now, but it would be, she'd go out with me, like, in a floor-length electric blue coat. And we'd get out, and then she'd go like that to someone. And I'd think-
- SBSteven Bartlett
She'd flash them?
- DMDavina McCall
... "My God, she's naked." Yes. Like, she'd be naked underneath her coat, and she'd flash someone. She'd think it was hilarious. And I'd just be like, "Oh God, somebody please, like, make the world disappear." But at times, it's really hard to explain, but I loved my mother. Like, I really wanted her to pull some mummy business out the bag. Like, I was like, "Come on. You can do this." And sometimes she'd give me a hug and I'd think, "Oh my God, this is it. Like, this is what it feels like to be hugged by Mother." But then at other times, you'd be reading her, right? It'd be like, "Well, I've gotta be, I've gotta be a sweet little girl. Oh no, I'm gonna have to take care of you. Oh, like, now I have to be really good fun. I've got, I need to entertain you." It was always wearing 1,000 different hats to see how she was going. And, and my granny used to say to me, when we did start talking about it when I was older, she said, "We'd have to, like, kind of, it would be funny for a month when you came back from France. You'd be a little bit on edge and we'd have to just really get you back into your favorite foods, a routine at bedtime, safety, re-ground me." So when I say I'm half-nun, half-wild child, it's because of that life that I've had. Like, drugs at 12, with my mum, like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
You were doing drugs with your mum?
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah, like smoking weed at 12, coke at 15, 14 even-
- SBSteven Bartlett
With your mum?
- DMDavina McCall
I did coke with my mum at 15; I did it with my sister at 14. You know, it was like, it was, there was no... And then I'd get back to the UK and it would, it would be back into your secondhand clothes and s- sort of safe, small life. Like, simple, my life was very simple. I mean, I say secondhand clothes. Just to give you an idea, I was in my grandad's jumper and an old pair of jeans, and I get to Paris and they go, "What are you wearing? Here's loads of money. Go and buy some posh loafers and get your hair done." And, and I'm 12, like, I look like a proper Lolita. But I, and I'd quickly realized that my life in Paris and my life in, in the UK, they must never know about each other. (laughs) Because if, if they knew in the UK about my life in Paris, they wouldn't let me see my mum. And I didn't care how mad she was, I still wanted to see her. That, does that make sense?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DMDavina McCall
So my s- my sister also was my lifeline in Paris. So my sister, who is six years older than me, even though we did do drugs together, and I know that sounds bad, but she was my rock. Like, she was my... She grounded me when I was in Paris. So we stuck together, we understood what Mum was like. We worked her together.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Caroline.
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah, Caroline, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DMDavina McCall
And then my mum, you know. But I, I did like going to Paris, and also because I was young and th- they didn't stop me from doing anything else. It was crazy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Having sat here with, um, stand-up comedians, I remember Jimmy Carr said to me, he said, "Often it's assumed that comedians themself are depressed, and that they're cracking jokes to kind of cheer other people up in an attempt to cheer themselves up." But he said to me, "You should actually ask them which one of their parents is depressed. Which one of their parents were they trying to please and entertain?" You said earlier, you know, "Did I have to be this one day? Did I have to be a joker? Did I have to take care of her?" Was your personality shaped by that, that desire to sorta keep her in good spirits, or win over her, her affection?
- DMDavina McCall
I think it taught me some amazing skills, in reading people. So, um, also my granny was unbelievably good at this as well. So people used to think my granny was psychic, 'cause somebody would walk in the room and she'd go, "Are you okay?"
- 13:59 – 19:09
What did you want to be when you were 16?
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you were, when you were like 16, 17, you, you know, you said you'd started doing drugs with your mother in, in France. But what did you want to be when you were older, if I'd asked you at 16?
- DMDavina McCall
I probably, probably need to clarify actually, that me and my mum only did drugs twice.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- DMDavina McCall
I mean, I know that's twice, times too many-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DMDavina McCall
... in my book. But I don't want to give this impression that she and I were taking tons of drugs together, 'cause that would be a false impression.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- DMDavina McCall
I just needed to plant-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, it's important.
- DMDavina McCall
... put that, put that there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah. But, um, what did I want to be when I was 16? Yeah, I was quite nihilistic, I think, in a way. I d- I wasn't thinking about anything except for the weekend. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
And where was I gonna go, and what club could I go to, and how could I go out, and what ... How could I party? And that was beginning ... I moved to London when I was nearly 14, and when I moved to London, suddenly the safety of the country had disappeared, and I started finding ways to go out and take drugs, and find people that took drugs in London. I was living with my dad and my stepmum, and they were very kind of solid, straight people, but my life did slightly change then. So I wasn't really thinking about anything at that point. Really, the time when I started forming an idea, and I was basically just a show-off, would've been 18.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"I was basically just a show-off."
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah. Um, 'cause ... I think because I had this fear of abandonment. If I was, if I did, "Look at me, look at me, enough. Look at me, I'm here. Everybody. Don't leave me. Ah." Needy people-pleaser. "Everybody like me." Like that, that's wha- yeah, that's who I was. And actually, what drugs did for me at that time was they made me feel safe. They made me feel like I was being hugged in that maternal way, that they filled this hole that I had here. And then as soon as the drugs started running out, the hole would fill up, uh, sort of the hole would be there again, and then I'd think, "Oh my God, where's the nearest thing I can get?" You know, um, man, laughter, attention, drug, like help fill the hole. So I was always a bit of kind of ... you know, bit of a show-off.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And at 18, you drop out of university?
- DMDavina McCall
Never went.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Never went, okay.
- DMDavina McCall
Nearly went to university.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- DMDavina McCall
Um, didn't go to university. And this is always something that I want to say to, to kids. I didn't really know what I was doing. I was an absolute car crash, I would say, until I was 23, 24. So when I was 19, I, um, I'd left school. I went to Australia for a few months. I came back and I thought, "I'm gonna save up money. I'm gonna get, you know, go working, gonna save up some money, I'm gonna try and get enough money to go back to Australia and live there." I loved it out there. I was clean, I wasn't taking any drugs. I was just driving to the beat- ... I mean, it was such a different me, and I liked that me. That was the nun. Like, my nun was freed in Australia, and I thought, "I quite like this person. I like who I am." And then a girlfriend of mine said, "I'm going to Saint-Tropez for two weeks. Do you wanna come?" And I was like, "Yeah, but I haven't got much money," 'cause I had all my savings and stuff, and I didn't wanna d- delve into that. She had quite a lot of money and bless her, she came on the coach with me from Victoria down to Saint-Tropez, and her parents had a house there. And then I started dipping into the savings, and then in two weeks, I'd spunked 800 pounds that I'd saved up for my flight to go back to Australia. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
And I never went back. And that was a kind of, you know, that was the wild child me, dancing on tables in Le Cave du Vin in Saint-Tropez 'til God knows what time in the morning, hitching a lift off people in Ferraris, trying to get back to ... I mean, awful danger, danger, danger everywhere. How I'm still alive, I've got no idea. Um, but hilarious, you know, it was just part of my path, but that meant that I never went ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Back.
- DMDavina McCall
... back to Australia, and I, I got a job as a waitress.... I was a really, really good waitress. I loved waitressing. Did you ever do that?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, my mum had a restaurant when I was super young, so I did, did it a little bit. But I was so young that it was more-
- DMDavina McCall
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it was more just of a gimmick, you know. "He'll get into tips because he's 11."
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah.
- 19:09 – 23:06
When did you first go into TV
- SBSteven Bartlett
first realize that you wanted to do something in media TV?
- DMDavina McCall
Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Or, or was it more a chance?
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah, no, so that, that's quite a good story. So I was working... I got a job at Models 1 after the, after the... and it was by chance, it was a complete fluke. I got a job at Models 1 working on Stephen, the male model section at Models 1.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- DMDavina McCall
I was a booker for the male models. I mean, I'm telling you, 19 or 20-year-old me walking in there, I was like, "This is the best job ever. All these gorgeous men walking in." I fell in love every 30 seconds-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
...for the first week. Um, and then what was interesting, it just became, they just became normal. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DMDavina McCall
I was like, "Oh, there's another good-looking guy. Whatever." Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Desensitized. (laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah, it's fun. It's so funny though how quickly that happens. But s- I'm still friends with loads of them now. Again, it was a great time in my life. Slightly car crashed, lots of drugs, lots of kind of madness, but also a very kind of good time in time, in terms of work and having fun. So I was at this agency, loads of beautiful models everywhere. I get approached by this guy who knows I love music, and he said, "Do you want to run a club with me at Subterrania?" And I said, "Yeah, great." And he said, "Bring all the beautiful people." So these club nights caught the attention of somebody at MTV who was going to launch MTV Europe, and they needed to, for the launch of MTU- TV Europe in Amsterdam, get loads of celebrities from the UK to Amsterdam, but do it in a really cool MTV way.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DMDavina McCall
So me and this girl called Sara Blondstein and, um, a guy called Graham, we were in charge of entertaining the celebrities from Victoria Train Station to Amsterdam and back. And it was like Duran Duran-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
... um, Zodiac, Mindwarp. I mean, it was really, really fun. And I dressed up as a cleaning lady, lipstick on my teeth, curlers in my hair, a tea urn full of champagne, and it was riotous. And at the end of that night, when we were heading back, um, from Amsterdam on the plane, I thought to myself, "I'm gonna work at MTV. That is the best place. Th- those are the best people." And while I was there that night... And this is what... this is another defining moment. That night, when I'd gone, I said to someone, "Can I get your number? Because I'd love to kind of look at job prospects at MTV. Would it be all right?" And he said, "Yeah," he said, "Sure." And I had the number and I thought, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna call this guy." And then I called him and I said, "You know, would it be all right, can I, um, to sort of send you a showreel if I did a showreel, because I'd like to be a presenter on..." I didn't even know the word VJ then, "on MTV." And he's like, "Yeah, sure, sure." And I started making show reels, and I must have sent him like three a year and relentlessly called him until he said, "Please stop calling me," after a couple of years. He said, "Could you just... like I can't give you a job at the moment, we only want European presenters." And I said, "Can you give me someone else's number and I'll call them instead?" And he went, "Yeah, you can take Mike Catherine's number." So I took Mike Catherine's number and eventually, a year later, Mike Catherine said, "There's a vacancy." So I'm 24. I've just got clean. I'm, I'm six months clean and sober. I'm absolutely radioactive. I can't believe I'm sober. I'm still can't believe I'm waking up with dry sheets. That my pillow... You know, we're talking about small wins. My sheets were dry in the morning, and I'd know when I woke up and I saw daylight, and I'd think, "I know this is morning." This is amazing. That's such a win. I'd got-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sheets are dry?
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah, sweating. I used to sweat in bed withdrawing at night, and my sheets were dry.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is this...
- 23:06 – 30:40
the moment you got off drugs
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what drug causes that?
- DMDavina McCall
So, heroin. So I, I was, um, in the end, um, addicted to heroin for maybe the last three months of my using. But the nun took over, I think, at that point, and was like, "You are addicted. Now you have to stop."
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what was that moment that where... and what was... can you really zoom in on that moment of you reach a point and you go, "This has to change"?
- DMDavina McCall
Hmm. So my best friend had said she was gonna take me to Santana. She didn't use or drink really. She'd had a brain injury when she was younger and she couldn't for 10 years, so she didn't. And she got me into her car and I was like, "I'm so excited about going to see Santana." I was probably...
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's Santana?
- DMDavina McCall
Um, it's a band.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh.
- DMDavina McCall
Stephen Bartlett.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I know. Sorry, I should have known.
- DMDavina McCall
Go and do some revision.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I will. Okay. I'm so... Santana, we'll play it all day.
- DMDavina McCall
Can I, can I just say something? You're gonna really like them.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Santana, I'm gonna like them? Really? Okay.
- DMDavina McCall
So good. Um, and I got in the car and she shut the doors and she said, "I'm actually not gonna take you to Santana. I need to tell you some things." I was like, "Yeah?" And she said-... "I know that you've been lying to me." Weirdly, I'd been off heroin for a month at that point, because I'd been away. I'd done a geographical. I'd gone away looking after someone's, uh... Nannying for someone for two weeks and got clean, and then, I'd- I'd- I'd also been with my mum in Morocco. So I'd had no heroin for a month, but I had just come off the back of a 24-hour cocaine bender, which had made me realize that heroin wasn't my problem, all drugs were my problem. If I, if I wasn't taking heroin, I couldn't take cocaine normally either. I, I couldn't just take it for four hours and then go to bed. I had to take it for 24 hours. I was an animal. And I thought, "Oh my God, I'm- I'm not just addicted to heroin. Heroin's not the pro- it's all drugs I've got to stop." She gets me in the car and she goes, "I know you've been lying to me. We all know you've been lying to us, all your friends, and you are the topic of conversation at every dinner party I go to." And this shame starts piling on. And I, I started feeling a bit, "Well, fuck you," to her. And this is, this is virtually my only friend I've got left. (laughs) And I do say, "Well, fuck you." Like, "Fuck you." I didn't really know what to say, 'cause I couldn't really argue with what she was saying.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DMDavina McCall
And I said, "Yeah, well, I didn't want to go see S-" something really childish, like, "I didn't want to go and see Santana anyway. Get out the car." I'm trying to get out the car. She's slightly shut the doors. It's all eggy, awkward. Slam the door, walk away from her, immediately burst into tears and think, "I'm not gonna turn back round and let her see I'm crying," you know? Get inside, go straight to bed. My parents, you know, I was, um, sleeping on a camp bed in my, in a, my dad's sort of wardrobe. I'd move out of my boyfriend's home, his fault that I was using. I'd got worse. I'd left my job, I thought that was the thing that was making me use. I'd got worse. I had a car but no money to put petrol in the car. I had not a pu- nothing. I was on this camp bed, and I would f- sort of walk into the, like, room, my room, which wasn't really a room, it was a cupboard, sit on the bed, go to sleep. And then an hour later I wake up and I think, "I'm going to phone someone for help. (laughs) I'm fucked. I c- I can't do this anymore." I phoned this woman who I knew was clean, and it was as if she'd been expecting my call. She goes, "Oh, hi Davina." (laughs) A- and I was like, "I was just wondering if you're going to a meeting, um, tomorrow?" She's like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm going at six o'clock, you know, World's End, come and meet me there." I was like, "Oh yeah, you know, I'm just interested to see what, you know, like, what it's like." She just, "Yeah, great, come along if you want." She didn't ask me what's going on, she didn't ask... which was exactly right. And the next morning I woke up and I felt so full of shame, and I thought, "I'll go and see Sarah." So I went to see Sarah at work at lunchtime, I sobbed. I said, "I'm not expecting you to believe me, and I know I'm going to have to prove myself, but I just wanted to let you know, I want to change, and I want to do something about it, and I'm going to go to a meeting tonight." And I could see a slight sort of, "Are you really?" Like, "Is this really going to happen?" And I just thought, "I- I don't know how much more I can give you or tell you, but I really, really mean it." So I went to a meeting that night, just spent the next two weeks going to meetings every day, well, and for 90 days after, sobbing, just sobbing in every meeting, of surrender. "I don't care what I have to do. I will literally do anything to stop feeling like this." And NA taught me how to live, and how to change, and how to heal myself. I- I owe NA my life, literally. But it also gave me my career. And weirdly, having tried to get a job at MTV while I was using all those years, the- the time they say, "Come in for an interview, we're gonna finally screen test you after three years of trying," I was six months clean and I didn't mess it up. You know, I turned up on time. In fact, I turned up a bit early. That was new for me. Um, I turned up clean (laughs) and smelling like flowers, and with a smile on my face and color in my cheeks. That was new for me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You said NA taught you how to heal. What did you learn about healing? And what did you learn about why you were addicted to narcotics?
- DMDavina McCall
Hmm. Well, I learnt about f- fear of abandonment. I probably hadn't heard that as a phrase then. I didn't understand... From listening to other people talk about their experiences, sometimes I'd think, "Oh no, that wasn't quite my experience. I don't think that's why I used." And then I remember hearing someone and thinking, "That's exactly me. That hole, and it never fills up, and you're constantly trying to fill it with anything." And then when they said, "Here is where I'm learning to fill it myself." And I thought, "That's what I want. I want to line the hole with something impermeable, that means it will fill up and never empty again." And there are steps in Narcotics Anonymous, in any 12 step program, and, you know, if you work through these steps... And it is like people would go, "Oh, it's like a cult, you know, it's really bad." But I did replace my addiction with addiction to (laughs) Narcotics Anonymous, but I know which addiction I'd rather have. Like, I went all the time, often twice a day, because it was the only place where I felt completely normal. I'd be around other people going, "Yeah, I felt like that. Oh yeah, I did that. Oh God, I've messed up this," or, "Oh yeah, I had, um, you know, liaisons with people that I didn't..."... I didn't care about, I didn't know, but I thought it would fix me. And you'd think, "God, these people are so honest." (laughs) It's, I've, I realize the power in honesty. I mean, that's your thing, right? Speak your truth.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DMDavina McCall
It's powerful.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Freeing oneself, isn't it?
- DMDavina McCall
Mm-hmm. So I, I learnt, I learnt everything to help me.
- 30:40 – 35:44
Hypnosis healing trauma
- DMDavina McCall
I did have, like, another transformational moment, uh, when I got hypnotized, um, for a job that I was doing about eight years ago. And that was like, that was when the impermeable seal went on my fear of abandonment, and it was unexpected 'cause I wasn't going to the hypnotist about that. I was going to the hypnotist about not feeling anxious going in a submarine to 1,000 meters under the sea. Tiny three-person submarine where you can't stand up and there's no loo, and it takes 40 minutes to get to the surface again.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
And I thought, "I don't f- get claustrophobia, but I don't wanna find out at 1,000 meters under the sea that I am clo- indeed claustrophobic."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
So I thought, "I better go and get hypnotized just to make sure." And that was... Have you ever done hypnotism?
- SBSteven Bartlett
No. No.
- DMDavina McCall
Oh, man. I mean, if you've got an issue that is something that you've worked on a lot and is hard to let go of... I mean, I didn't even think really that my fear of abandonment issue was still there. But I do think, I do think it was. And we did some regression work where I went back to me in the kitchen looking at my granny thinking, "My mum's not gonna come back and I don't know what to do, and I feel a bit guilty. I think I've overstayed my welcome." And the hypnotist said, "Go get, go get that Davina. Take her by the hand." He said, "Where's your favorite place in the garden?" I said, "The oak tree." So he said, "Take her to the oak tree." So I took her over to the oak tree. Little me, four years old. And he said, "Okay, sit her down." I sat her down and he said, "You know, comfort..." I said, "She looks worried." And he said, "Comfort her." I said, "I feel silly. I don't know what to do. It's me. Uh, it feels weird." And he said, "Imagine she was one of your own children. Comfort her as if she was your child." So I put, I put my arm around her and I thought, "Okay, this is easier." And then her head went on my, on my chest, and I was stroking her hair. And I said, "I don't know what to say." (laughs) I kept thinking, "He's looking to me to say something profound and I've got no idea how to do this." And he said, "Well, why don't you tell her it's all gonna be okay?" And I really started crying, like, really crying.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- DMDavina McCall
And he said the same thing, uh, "What's up?" And I said, "Well, it's not gonna be okay. I take drugs. I make stupid decisions. I put myself in danger. It's bad." And he went, "But look at you now." And it was like, "Oh my God, look at me now. I'm great." And it was like everything went, you know, all the cogs and the wheels in my brain all went click. "I am gonna be okay." And I looked at her, and I got, like, her head in my hands and I was like, "You are gonna be okay. Your life is gonna be amazing and it will be full of, you know, ups and downs, but you are gonna be okay." And he said, "You can take her back. Let's take her back." So I went back to the kitchen and I put her down in the seat. And she's smiling at me, and then he says, "We can leave now." But he said, "Before, before we leave, I want you to just turn round and look at her one last time and tell me what she looks like." I said, "She looks happy." And he said, "Great," and then he b- brought me round. I was, like, bawling.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
Waa! Like (laughs) no, this is amazing. What's happened? What's just happened?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DMDavina McCall
And he said, "We've planted a seed." And he said, "Let's just wait and see what happens there." He said, "This, this was basically to stop you feeling like you're gonna be abandoned at the bottom of the sea, but actually I think maybe we've done something bigger here. It might be kind of amazing what happens." And a couple of things happened after that that, where I said, "Actually, it's not okay, uh, to treat me like that." I would never have said that before 'cause I was worried you'd abandon me. If I, I, I stood up to you and said, "Hmm, not okay," I'd think, "Oh, you might not like me anymore." I, I, it was very important that everybody liked me. And suddenly I was like, "Actually, I can stand up for myself in a non-aggressive way and not actually mind if you like me or not because I'm doing it for me." Oh, oh my God. It was mega. And I feel like from that moment I've been a different person in all of my decisions, in my outlook on life. It's been mega.
- 35:44 – 39:31
Your desire to be famous
- DMDavina McCall
- SBSteven Bartlett
So your, your career then in TV, one of the things I read is that it was heavily fueled, and we kind of talked about this before we started recording, by your desire to be famous.
- DMDavina McCall
Yes. I mean, the, the first MTV thing... So I, I'd wanted to be a singer, another desire to be famous. I wasn't good enough. I was like, "I would be an amazing backing vocalist." (laughs) My, my nickname at home is The Harmonizer. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
I can't listen to a track without harmonizing to it. I absolutely have to.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Gets annoying at some point though, doesn't it? When... (laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
Yes, 'cause all my kids are like, "Oh, my God." In, in the car I'm always like, "Hmm." (humming)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
And, you know, like, they're going, "Oh my God."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ugh.
- DMDavina McCall
Like, "Stop." If I could have turned my family into the von Trapps ... And I really tried, right? That w- or made them all do choir. They all had to kind of do singing lessons. They just weren't buying it at all, and I'm so upset about that. But if I could have had the von Trapps, that would have been my dream. Anyway, failed singer. (smacks lips) What else can I do to get famous? All of this, obviously, "Mum, look at me. You made a mistake. Look how great I am." That's at the back of everything, right? And, I mean, for example, when I was 15 or 16 and I, I did quite well in my O-levels. They were O-levels back then.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DMDavina McCall
That's how, how old I am. And, um, I called up my mum to tell her I'd done quite well in my O-levels. She was really angry (laughs) because she felt like I was just trying to show her up or that, you know, "Don't think that you're..." She was drunk. She was drunk. She took it badly. She was like, felt that it was me trying to say that she wasn't good enough or that she'd done something, you know? Uh, and I was so confused by that (laughs) , um, that I thought, "I'm going to show you," like, "I'm going to make you want to..." Anyway, uh, my aim was, "I want to get my own show on MTV. That's what I want." And I got my own show on MTV, and I presented the first show, and I went up to the dressing room afterwards, and I cried, and I cried, and I cried, and I couldn't figure out why I was crying. And I called my sponsor, which is something you, you have in Narcotics Anonymous, who's there to help you decipher yourself. And she said, "Right, tell it," you know. We picked it apart and picked it apart, and I said, "It hasn't fixed the hole." It, it, it didn't make me think, "Oh, my mum's gonna want me back." And then to top it all off, my mum did call me and say she'd seen it. 'Cause you could see it in France 'cause it was European, and she said, w- you know, "I think you should stop pulling the faces. You pull these faces." And I was like, "That was not the r- desired effect. I did not want you to think that. I wanted you to think, 'Wow! You were amazing!" You know? And, um, so it was, phew, it was a really heavy moment, and then I thought, "Wow, I need to warn everybody. You know, being famous, you got to do it for the right reasons. I did it for the wrong reasons. And now I'm here, and I've got this job, and I'm on the wheel, and I don't know how to ... You know, I can't get off."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
I didn't want to get off. I mean, I s- I was enjoying my job. Don't get me wrong. Working at MTV were some of the greatest years of my lives, my life, but actually it was probably is lives. I've had li- lived about ten-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
... different lives in my lifetime, and MTV was one of them. But I think that, that realization, that the thing that I'd been aiming for, that I thought was gonna fix me and it didn't, was like, again, the end of something and the start of another phase of my life. "Okay, well, you're gonna have to find it inside somehow."
- 39:31 – 43:24
Your states of happiness now
- DMDavina McCall
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that, that hole-
- DMDavina McCall
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you, you referred to. Is that hole f- f- filled now?
- DMDavina McCall
Filled. Yeah. I mean, I've-
- SBSteven Bartlett
100% filled?
- DMDavina McCall
I've never been so happy. Like, I can't even r- I, I sat ... Oh. Do you know, it was really funny? 'Cause I said, I said to my boyfriend this morning, I said, "I'm going to do this thing with Steven Bartlett this morning." And he was like, "Oh my God." I said, "I am not gonna cry." I'm like, "I haven't done Piers Morgan specifically for this reason," 'cause I was like, "I am not gonna sit and do it." But it's weird because it's the thing, it's talk, I could talk about my pain till the cows come home and not feel a thing, 'cause it's so far removed from me, and it was a long time ago, and I've processed and processed and processed it. But feeling happy, like, is so alien (laughs) . Like, 100% like, joyous. Sitting on the train and just feeling so good this morning. And it's not like, um, euphoria or a druggy happy or a fake high. It's content. Oh my God, it's like I can't, I cannot quite believe it. And I d- and I don't ... You know, I've been walking forwards, but I don't know how I got here. Just walked forwards, you know? But settling, settling down, um, I feel like I've, I've grounded in a way that I've never had before. Hmm. And, you know, I think it's so important to talk about this stuff because at 55, if you'd have said to 30-year-old me, "What's life gonna look like when you're 55?" I'm gonna say, "Really sad. I probably won't be doing TV anymore. It won't want me, and I'll be really boring, and I won't be having fun anymore, and so ... Pff." And I think, "Oh my God, I couldn't be wrong, more wrong!" Like, "I've got to go and tell everybody quick! Tell everyone it's gonna be okay!" Steven, it's gonna be okay (laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've never had someone say to me that their feelings of happiness make them emotional.
- DMDavina McCall
Oh, when I think about it, well, because I'm grateful, and I think because, you know, we were talking about what makes you a positive person? I think it's 'cause you think ... It, uh, it's been a roller coaster, right? It's, for you, it's been a roller coaster. But, like, it's not about the Lambo or the house or the mansion. It's about this, and your roller coaster, and your journey to money-... and making it, and then realizing it doesn't fix you, and then you fixing yourself by being on a journey of self-discovery, which you massively are by talking to all these different people. You're, like, taking little bits from everything somebody says to you, and thinking, "I'm going to use this for me. That was a great tool, thank you very much. I'm going to have that." It's like you are healing yourself. This is your NA meeting.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
This is, this is your...
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
This is your recovery.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I feel like you've just blown my cover. (laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah. This is your recovery. I mean, how amazing is that?
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's cra- it's crazy privilege to have found.
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah. But in, you know, and it's just going to... These are all seeds that are planted in you that just continue to grow. So life gets better, you know. Mother Nature throws you crepey knees, and crepey elbows, and crow's feet, but it also throws you a full heart and a peaceful mind.
- 43:24 – 47:26
Your career in TV
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your career, your, your, your career in TV, that whole journey. It's been one of the most incredible careers that I think most people could ever hope for in any industry ever, you know, you, the top of your, your game. Um, I first came to learn about you because of Big Brother, but there's a career before that, and there's a long, long career after that. When you reflect on what advice you would have given yourself, or, like, why you made it to the very top of that, that pyramid, what is the answer, Davina?
- DMDavina McCall
I mean, this is another thing that I marvel at every day, because there have been many times in my career where I've thought, "This is it." It was interesting, after Big Brother finished, um, I contacted a friend of mine who was, like, a tech, a tech, a techy person. And I'd had this thought, like, after Big Brother, I thought, "Who am I? And where am I gonna go?" And it could all end, and as the person that was providing the roof and the food on the table, it was on, like me, I had to think of my next step, what was I gonna do? I'm not sure how long television's gonna last. I mean, it's still going, which is amazing for me. But I thought, "I need to get into technology and the internet, and I need to go online." And I came up with an idea for... I thought about it in terms of an exhibition center, but you could put that online, where you would have everything from money, advice, personal advice, mental advice, um, kids' advice. And I went and talked to a few people about it, and for whatever reason, it didn't happen. But it wasn't meant to happen. I tried to get it off the ground for, like, two or three years. I tried to make it a TV program, I tried to make it an exhibition, I tried to make it an online thing. And you know when you're swimming against the tide with an idea, and at some point, you've just got to take your hands off the steering wheel and go, like, "That wasn't meant to happen"? But then I got offered Long Lost Family. Now, Long Lost Family, I've been filming that program now for 13 years.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- DMDavina McCall
It makes me feel so good, that show. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- DMDavina McCall
And I've helped so many people on it, which has been so wonderful to be part of that moment in their life where they learn something that's been an itch that they couldn't scratch for years and years, and we can provide that scratch. Um, so I always think, "Well, just start walking in that direction and something else will come along, but never just sit down and wait." You know, I've never sat down and thought, "Oh, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna stay here and, and wait for something to happen to me." I've got no em- embarrassment or shame about emailing a TV company or a head of a TV company and going, "Have you thought about this? What about this? Can I present that if it happens? Can I do this?" I've, I'm literally begging ITV to let me present Mid-Life Love Island. I could fill a villa, uh, in Love Island with middle-aged people with the best back stories you have ever heard in your life. They've lived a life, they're widows, they're people who have been through horrific divorces. They are people who have split up with somebody and decided they wanna try going out with somebody the same sex as them. They're p- like, interesting people. I'd watch that show.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's really interesting.
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah, and I was like, "I need to present it, please."
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are they saying about that?
- DMDavina McCall
They said, "Oh, we're looking at something else that's quite similar, we might consider you for that." Well, if I hadn't sent them that email in the first place, they wouldn't have thought about me for the other show, maybe. You gotta make opportunities happen. They never just come to you. Keep walking. I'm always talking to my kids, "Just keep walking. Something will come." Kind of form, build the foundations and just keep walking, and as you're walking, you're laying more and more path. Don't sit and wait for the path to be laid, 'cause it'll never come
- 47:26 – 52:21
Manifestation
- DMDavina McCall
to you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's this word manifestation you've used-
- DMDavina McCall
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, in this conversation. What role and what does that mean to you? You know, you're talking there about proactively, like, attacking the day.
- DMDavina McCall
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I, I almost liken it to, um, the analogy I've given before is when you get in your car in the morning, you set the sat-nav, which is the manifestation, but then you've gotta drive.
- DMDavina McCall
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If you just do one, if you just drive, you're gonna get lost. If you just set the sat-nav, you're gonna be in your garage all day. You have to do both together. You've talked about how you attack, like send the email, make the phone call, pester the person at MTV. But then what role does, like, the manifestation play in all of that?
- DMDavina McCall
It's interesting, 'cause you said you've got... It's all very well putting it in... The sat-nav is the manifestation, but then you've got to drive the car.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- DMDavina McCall
But in m- in m- in my mind, I see that if you start... if you know where you're going, your car self-drives. Like, you, you almost are always walking in the direction because you can see it.... I know that at some point I will do this.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting.
- DMDavina McCall
So, I've sent this email to this woman, um, and I've just told you about it, 'cause this w- this was a manifestation. It's triggered my memory that I've told this. I'm gonna send a follow-up email today. Now, is that... is, is my car self-driving? It kind of is, like... 'cause I've been telling you about a manifestation, 'cause I had it in the first place.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
You've just reminded me, I'm gonna send the email.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That, for me, is the difference though. Because there's so many people, and we all know them, that have sofa ideas.
- DMDavina McCall
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They'll turn to you while they're watching, "You know, I've got this idea for this TV show, da, da, dah."
- DMDavina McCall
Sometimes they're really good, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Fantastic.
- DMDavina McCall
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it doesn't matter, because they don't have the, the next bit-
- DMDavina McCall
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... which is, "I'm gonna get up and send an email."
- DMDavina McCall
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And like you've just said, "I'm gonna send another one." That, for me, is turning the key in the, in the ignition.
- DMDavina McCall
Mm. Yes. Maybe, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Some- there's a lot of people that are going, "Oh, m- satnav, TomTom, oh. This is where I, I wanna go someday." And then they just relax back into the, the chair in the car and nothing happens.
- DMDavina McCall
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then there's some people I meet, tends to be the people that sit here with me, that took that weird, kind of, um, nothing to lose first step. And you go, "That was rude." Or you go, "Oh really? You just, like, what, showed up there?" Or, "You just begged them on email?" And those are the people that I tend to sit here with.
- 52:21 – 54:10
Ads
- SBSteven Bartlett
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- 54:10 – 1:14:02
Your sister Caroline
- SBSteven Bartlett
Galloway, Scott Galloway-
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and he told me about the arc of happiness, where he says, you know, his idea was that our happiness kind of looks like a bit like a smile, where kind of start happy at the start of our life, we get, it gets a little bit difficult in the middle, and then at the end, the kind of 50-ish, um, age, when we go into that second spring, it's, it's happy again, typically. Again, this is not the same for everybody. It's kind of a generalization. But at the bottom of the arc of happiness, when things are most difficult, is when we start losing people in our lives that we love.And, I know ten years ago, you lost Caroline, your half-sister. Um, talk to me about that, that experience, and also, generally the process of how you've dealt with that grief.
- DMDavina McCall
Hmm. It was definitely the worst thing that ever happened to me. Still to this day, like, the worst. So, I told you a little bit about Caroline, uh, uh, with my mum, and that she, she was six years older than me. And she lived in Paris. She was the result of my mum's pregnancy when she was 16. And she endured a lot, well, her lifetime, with m- our mum, and that was very hard on her. And she was left with many hang-ups from that, of, um, she was, she, she used to find it hard to be completely honest all the time. So she'd tell big exaggerations about things, or make up stories. But this is because she'd had to lie to cover for my mum her entire life. Not all the time. But just, she'd make her life a bit more exciting by telling untruths. And I, I don't want to do her a disservice in her death, because we talked about this when she was alive. And I go, "Is that a porkie?" And she'd start laughing, and she'd go, "Well, it did happen. But this didn't happen," you know. But it was just dry and ... I understood her, and she understood me and all my defects of character. And she knew exactly why I did things. And she was an insular person, quite an insular person. And her favorite thing would be to go ... She lived with me always. We had six dark years when we didn't live together. But she lived with me when I had a two-bed flat in Hammersmith. And we were very funny together. Like, I just understood everything about her, and she understood all my idiosyncrasies, and I got all of hers. And so, her favorite thing in the evening, you know, I love socializing. I'm a people person. I like going out. I am touch. She would be TV dinner, food on lap, foie gras, a ton of butter, French bread, glass of red wine, spliff. If I would say to her, "Do you wanna come for a walk around the garden?" She was French, fully French. So her mum and her dad were French. And I'd say, "Do you wanna come for a walk around the garden?" She'd go, "No." You know, exercise, not her thing. Absolutely hilarious person. So funny. But very secretive. And I was bleh, I would tell her everything. She would tell me nothing. It was very annoying. Um, I would walk around naked in front of her all the time. I'd go, "Come." I'd phone her up, I'd go, "Caroline, come, come and talk to me while I have a bath." I mean, I was so annoying. I was an annoying little sister right up until the very end. So she'd come over to the house, and sh- she'd sit on the floor, and I'd go, like, "Talk to me. Tell me everything, what's happened at work," blah, blah, blah. And then I'd share something or I'd talk about a problem and she'd help me iron it out. She was amazing. So good to talk to, so kind of wise. Always a bit painfully honest with me. "Yeah, but you know you're overstepping the mark," or, "You know you shouldn't be doing this." She's the only person that could do that with me. But because she was so secretive, things were going a bit awry. So she'd just had her 50th birthday and she s- sort of walked into a door once. A door was half open and she kind of walked into it. And I was like, "Didn't you see that?" I thought, "She's been smoking too much spliff," you know. Um, and then she was sitting at the table and she was talking to me and h- she had a glass in her right h- uh, her left hand. It was her left hand. She had a glass in her left hand and as she was talking to me, I was watching the glass. Her left hand was tipping further and further over to the side and I was watching the glass and the water was just a bit ... And I went, "Caroline, your hand." And she went, "Oh." But she had to look at it to tip it back up. And I was thinking, "That's very weird." And she became a bit clumsy and I thought, "Too much weed or menopause or something." She became a bit forgetful. She kept going, "Oh, menopause. I can't remember what's going on." She had a sore back and she'd fallen over. We'd been in the garden and she'd fallen over and she kept going, "You know, when I fell over, my back's, like, still not right." She used to cane the Advil. I mean, she was terrible with, like, painkillers. She used to take sleeping pills. You know, she'd slightly medicate herself, weed, sleeping pills, Advil, like all the time. I just thought, "She's on another planet." But it got to the point where I thought, "Something is up." And I'd invited her to come to France with us for half term. She always came on holiday with us. And she said no, which was very unlike her and I was like, "Are you sure?" She went, "I just wanna stay here. I'm so tired. I don't feel ... Just feel like I've got flu coming on." I was like, "Okay." I got back, she'd had flu all week. She'd been in bed all week. I was like, "Whoa, Caroline, like, I think maybe you should go see someone." She said, "No, I think I'm coming out of it." Then the next morning, someone had been walking past her window and they said, um, to me, "I think you should come. I can hear Caroline shouting for help." So I got the key, opened the door. She'd been on the floor all night. Um, she was in her pajamas. She'd soiled herself. She couldn't move. She was paralyzed down half her body. And I was like, "It's a stroke. Quick, call the ambulance. S- s- s- the quicker we can get her seen, the better." The RAT car comes, the s- you know, stroke expert. He walks in, he goes, "I don't think this is a stroke." I was like, "But it must be a stroke, because half her body's gone. Like, this is what happens in a stroke." They get her in an ambulance. I'm now a bit worried. I'm thinking, "If this isn't a stroke, what is going on?" But I was just trying to be strong for her. I'd just go, "It's gonna be fine. We're gonna get you to hospital and they're gonna get it sorted. It's probably, you know, bit of menopause, bit of whatever. Maybe you're smoking too much." We get her to the hospital.... test after test, after test. And I was thinking, "Brain scan, I understand." And then they said, "We'd like to do a chest X-ray." And I was thinking, "Why are you doing a chest X-ray if it's clearly neurological?" Off she goes for the chest X-ray. And then about an hour later, we get a doctor come in and he goes, "We've got something to tell you." And we're both thinking, "Yeah?" We're in A&E, right? And he goes, "Yeah, you have primary lung cancer in both lungs. And you have two brain tumors. It's metastasized to your brain, and the pain in your back is where your lung cancer is then going into your bone. So, you probably have bone cancer as well." I was like, "That can't be right." And she went, "Lung cancer?" And then she looked at me and she went, "It's all my fault." I went, "It's not your fault. Like, it's not your fault you've got lung cancer." And you could see her just going tick, tick, tick, smoking, all those years smoking, the smoking the weed da- da- And I was like, "Stop. Stop. We need to think, like, what are we gonna do? Like, okay, what are we gonna do?" In the meantime, I have to c- I just said, "I'm just gonna go and call, um, my mum and dad. I'm just gonna go and call them and just let them know what's happening." And I called them. I couldn't, I c- c- I couldn't breathe. I was, like, in the corridor going, "Think I'm h- I think I'm g- I think I'm gonna have, like, some kind of attack." Like, I can't, I can't process it. I c- don't understand what's happening. That I think they're telling me, 'cause they hadn't said the word die, I think they're telling me Caroline's dying. Like, she's got so much cancer that she's dying. I said, "I, I, I'll keep you posted." I go freshen up my face. I, there was a nurse there that I've seen a couple of times since when I've taken my kids into A&E, and I always give her a bit of a special hug, 'cause she came up to me in the corridor, and she was like, "Are you okay?" And I was like, "I'm not okay." She was like, "What's going on?" And I said, "Well, my sister's got this and this." And she was like, "I'm really sorry." She just gave me a hug and that was it, and then she went. But I've never forgotten it, you know. That hug I needed to touch, I needed someone to... I went back in, kind of tried to dry off my eyes or what have you, and we just sat there in silence really. And then lots of people came in and were looking at her. One of the saddest things was someone lifted up th- her back to put the stethoscope on the, on her back and listen to her. And I saw a, I know this is gonna sound so weird, but I saw a blackhead on her back and it was massive, and it had grown into kind of a, a sore. It looked horrible. And I thought, "No one sees you. No one, no one sees you naked. No one... You don't let anyone in. Like, I am the closest, and even I am not in 'cause you are so protective of that painful child." She'd never done the work, she'd never got to NA or AA, she wasn't really an addict. I mean, you know, she smoked a lot of weed, but I did- I didn't see her as an, she wasn't an alcoholic, she wasn't... But she, she had sh- she'd put a fence around her, and everybody was at the fence, and she had so many friends that loved her so much, but nobody got inside the fence. And I, it made me so, so sad. And I thought, "I'm fucking climbing over the fence and I'm gonna get in for however long you've got left because you are not shutting me out." We had the best talks, she was in hospital for a month. We had the most amazing, brilliant talks that I thought, "God, why is it that when you're dying we get to do this? (laughs) Why did we not do this a year ago?" Like, if anybody's listening and they feel like they've got a relative that they want to get into or get, do it now. Don't wait for someone to die, because the best seven weeks of my life with my sister were those last seven weeks of hers. And so she had a month in the hospital, and then we s- I said, "I wanna get her home to her cottage." I had to go round and find all her weed, and it was everywhere. I literally could have, uh, you know, started dealing, she had that much weed squirreled away. I think she'd forgotten half of the places that she'd had it squirreled away. I chucked it all a- away. Um, I wasn't, I didn't find that hard at all, like, I wasn't, I was never interested in weed so it was easy for me. I, um, set up her house, got the plumber in, put in things for her to hold. Um, e- occupational therapy came and told me all the places where I need to put stuff, harnesses, hospital beds, blah, blah, blah. Set up her whole cottage, got her back home, and just hung out with her, and we got a carer, and she, she had chemo booked in but the first chemo was booked in for two days after she died. And we thought she had six months, and we wrote a bucket list. And on the bucket list was, um, just the sweetest stuff like go to France one more time, and, um, see the kids. We tried to make as much of it happen, get loads of her friends down. Lot of the stuff we couldn't do. Again, like, why do people do bucket lists when they're dying? Like, do bucket lists when you're alive. And also, I would challenge anybody listening to this podcast, 'cause this was a real thing for me, if somebody said to me, "Davina, you have got six months to live, what's, like, the most important thing to you now? Like, what, what really matters?"Don't wait for somebody to say that you've got six weeks to live. Say, I lo- I love, I say I love you to all of my friends, all of the people that I love nonstop. Check in with people, call people, make sure they're okay. Spend time with people. Make the decisions where you think, "If I was to die tomorrow, is this the decision that I'd be happy with?" Equally, if you've got somebody very toxic in your life and they are really ruining your life, you know, if you had six months to live, you would be, like, the first thing I'd do is let go of this toxic person. Do not wait. You know, do it now. And you deserve to be happy. You deserve to not have this toxic person in your life. And Caroline, again, I guess, you know, I'm always looking for lessons. She taught me so much in her death. She was so brave. She never once complained, she never once got frightened, she never cried, and she tried to look after me. And one of my most, I'm sorry, Stephen, I know I'm talking a lot, but there was one moment that I do want to tell you about. So obviously no one had ever seen her naked. And she had this amazing carer called Claire. Oh my God, she was the best ever. She was the most gentle, she understood respect and dignity, and she knew Caroline, almost straightaway she knew what kind of person she was. And Caroline would not let me get her undressed or ready for bed. It was like, "I don't want you to see me naked." And the night that she went to sleep for the final time and then three days later she died, she was doing this kind of knitting thing with her hands. She was really uncomfortable. You could see there was something, something had changed a bit. And I was like, "Hey, are you okay?" And Claire didn't come until maybe 7:00 or 8:00 in the evening to, to put her to bed with the district nurse. And, um, and she said, "I, I wanna go to bed now." Oh no, Claire was there, but she needed somebody else to put her to bed because there was hoists and everything. And I said, "Well look, Claire and I could do it, but it would mean that it would be me." And she went, (sighs) "Okay," but laughing. And I was like, (gasps) "Are you serious?" And she went, "Yes." And I went, "Oh my God, Caroline, thank you. Thank you." But at the same time, I was like, well, you know, I'm gonna cry. Like, this is the, this is m- uh, Mecca. I've arrived, you know? This is my pilgrimage to my sister. I've, I crawled over the fence and I'm now at her body. And I said to her, "Would it be all right if I did the diprobase?" 'Cause I needed to diprobease her before she got into bed so she didn't get bedsores. And that's like moisturizing every inch of her body. And she went, "Yes, but you're not gonna do it again." Like, "This is the only time. I'm gonna let you do it once." And I said, (gasps) "Thank you so much." And I got to ... She had the softest skin. I'm very furry. My, my sister had no hair, like at all. She was bald as a coot. And her arms and stuff were so soft. I got the diprobase and I was like, "Oh my God, Caroline, your arms are so soft." And she was laughing, where she was going, "Oh my God, you are ridiculous." I was going, "This is amazing." (laughs) And I got to cream her whole body, and it felt like she'd given that to me, and it was hideous for her. And even when she was dying, she gave me h- a bit ... of herself that I had never had before, and it was so nice. And she went to sleep that night. And actually in the middle of the night then they came and they gave her a bit more morphine. They said, "Okay, she was really distressed. She was calling me Mummy and holding onto my hand." She'd never been like that before. And she, they gave her some morphine and it calmed her down a bit, and then for three days she just slept basically. But I was with her when she went, and it was really lovely. And I kept talking to her the whole time because they say your hearing is the last thing (laughs) that goes. And I just wanted her to know I wasn't crying. I was just trying to be really strong for her. (sniffs) And I kept saying to her, "I'm gonna be fine." Because I think out of everything, she was worried about me. Do you know what I mean? Like, that was her last thought, like, "Are you gonna be all right?" 'Cause she knew how much of a backbone she was for me. That's what I meant about it being a reciprocal agreement. Like, it wasn't just me taking care of her. She was taking care of me, and she, it was a reciprocal agreement, and she wanted to make sure that I was gonna be all right. And I kept going, "I'm gonna be fine." And I talked her out all the time, but in the last five years ... So I had a huge grieving thing seven years after she died. I went like all summer, she died on the 1st of August, and all summer I couldn't shake off this cloud. And, uh, somebody online interestingly had said often seven years after someone's died, it's like a bang. And I was like, "This is what's happening to me. Seven years, it's like so painful again." (sniffs) But since then, you know, and me being in a good place, I keep telling her, I keep going, "Oh man," like, "I wish, I wish you were here," like, "so I could show you how great it is." She'd be living with me now, and you know, she'd be so...... happy, we'd be good. I imagined myself, I always thought that I'd be wheeling her around. I always imagined she'd probably get emphysema and she'd have an oxygen tank. And, um, well, I'd tell her that. I'd go, "If you carry on doing that, you're gonna get blooming..." and I said, "But I'm happy to wheel you around. I am. Uh, we'll go and live by the seaside somewhere, and you and me can be a couple of old grannies, and I'll, you know, I'll take care of you." But I didn't... never thought she'd die at 50. But she was a great person, and, um, but her, her pa- passing... My dad, you know, when he died, he had Alzheimer's, and I... It was expected. We knew it was coming. We'd spent 10 years preparing for it. It was still horrific, but he was 78, and I knew he'd lived an amazing life. But I still felt my sister had so much more to give, you know? (sniffs) (exhales deeply) Um.
- 1:14:02 – 1:18:20
The process of grief
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is that process of grief like? Uh, you know, I ask these questions because I've been fortunate enough to not go through that arc of grief yet.
- DMDavina McCall
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I think about it. It's been like, I think it haunts me a little bit in my head sometimes. Um, that process of grief, what you learnt from it, what you would, um-
- DMDavina McCall
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... what you might impart on me.
- DMDavina McCall
Do you ever feel like an island in your life? Like, that your family are all around you, but you're not ab- quite attached. Like, you are slightly-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, 100%.
- DMDavina McCall
... on your own.
- SBSteven Bartlett
100%.
- DMDavina McCall
I always felt like that too. So I'm sort of attached, but not quite attached. And other people are attached, but I've never... And it's not a bad thing. It's not 'cause anybody's tried to detach me. I just feel like an island.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Maybe you didn't lear- In my case, I feel like I didn't learn attachment.
- DMDavina McCall
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I didn't learn how to, to... You know, I call my parents by their first names, and I-
- DMDavina McCall
Do you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I don't... I, I... You know? I- I feel like we're in a, a family of islands.
- DMDavina McCall
That's called an archipelago.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that what it's called?
- DMDavina McCall
Yeah. A group of islands all grouped together.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, okay. (laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
It's an archipelago.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know too much. (laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
So, I, I don't... So te- Your partner, I know you don't talk about personal life-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- DMDavina McCall
But is it like two islands have come together, so you've formed a, like, a little...
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's interesting, sh-
- DMDavina McCall
Like I said to Michael, like, Michael's Ibiza-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- DMDavina McCall
And I'm Formentera.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh. (laughs)
- DMDavina McCall
I'm the, like, the really kind of gorgeous, like, hot, beautiful, unsport island, and next to, and he's quite a party island. And we've formed, like, we've now formed Ibiza and Formentera, but we are two islands that have come together. But, uh, I, I feel like as, as... just to talk about the grief thing, I've l- my mum died.
- 1:18:20 – 1:26:42
Your book Menopausing
- SBSteven Bartlett
You wrote a book, it's here in front of me-
- DMDavina McCall
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... called Menopausing.
- DMDavina McCall
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why? Why did you, why did you wanna write a book on it? Writing books is a lot of effort.
- DMDavina McCall
Mm. Mm, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know? So you have to really want, want it. And you're-
- DMDavina McCall
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're now in a very in- intentional phase of your life. So this must have really, from everything I've learnt about you so far, must have really mattered.
- DMDavina McCall
Totally. I mean, I think I did, um, I did two documentaries which were eye-openers for me. Uh, the first one was a huge risk, and I thought, "Oh, am I literally committing professional hara-kiri here? Is, is my entire career gonna implode now that I am banging the menopause drum and telling everybody that I'm menopausal?" 'Cause I'd hidden it for so long. I thought, "Is this gonna be...... a bad thing or a good thing. I had no idea. But my life was heading to, in this direction where I'd been talking to doctors and learning things, and I thought, "I've got a platform," and I don't understand when it's something that happens to every single woman. It's not even like it happens to some women. It happens to every single woman, and some trans men, and we know nothing about it. This is a crime to, to womanhood, and it is also not good for society, because women are behaving in a bizarre and irrational and over-emotional way sometimes. 75% of women have symptoms, 25% of women don't. That those 75% are going to be behaving or going through things that either will affect their jobs, their work, certainly will affect their relationships, certainly will affect their children's lives if they've got kids, a- and yet we don't know anything about it, and neither did you or you or l- anybody else know anything about what was going on. And I thought, "I've, I have got a platform, and most of the people that follow me on this platform are women. I, I've got to, I've got to do something about it." So I did this first documentary, and I kind of watched it at home like that, like, "Oh my God, this is going... Oh my God."
Episode duration: 1:54:08
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