The Diary of a CEODeliveroo Founder: From £0 to £5 Billion: Will Shu | E88
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,013 words- 0:00 – 3:25
Intro
- WSWill Shu
I just knew this city needed something better than the classic takeaways. That's how I got the idea for Deliveroo. (instrumental music plays) I definitely know what it was like to walk in their shoes, because I did that job for a long time. I did, you know, five deliveries last night. And that's why, you know, treating riders with respect and making sure their voices are heard is so important to me. We're running low on money, 'cause we couldn't get money in for, whatever, 14 months. COVID kicks off. Our users were, were disappearing because there were no restaurants left on the platform. So we see this plummeting growth. I had to do the hardest thing I ever had to do. (dramatic music plays) I had to lay off, you know, a significant number of people at the company. I'm so proud of what we've built and I'm so excited about the future, but it is a hard, hard job. And anyone that tells you otherwise are not being honest. We're about to get all this money in the company, and then suddenly it was just gone. Right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, in a-
- WSWill Shu
Big number. 600 million? Something like that. (fingers snap) And I was like, "Holy shit." You know? "What do we do?" (dramatic music plays)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(instrumental music plays) Deliveroo, one of the fastest-growing technology companies in Europe. You probably know the company. You've probably used it. But you probably don't know where it came from. You probably don't know the founder and his story, his unconventional, very, very humble journey. Deliveroo went from an idea that one guy had in London while working in the city to becoming a multi-billion dollar company in record time. But the crazy thing about my conversation today with Will is, he is not your typical founder. He's not your typical CEO. Doesn't feel like your typical entrepreneur. This was really his first business. And the really puzzling thing about my conversation with Will is, he doesn't fit the typical stereotype of what you expect an entrepreneur to be. And I think that is amazing, because it just goes to show that entrepreneurs don't all share the same fundamental characteristics. They're not all these big, braggadocious characters with huge egos. And you can achieve great success with great humility. Will is an anomaly, and I think you'll feel that today. He's incredibly humble. He isn't that introspective, doesn't analyze himself that much, and he feels like a very simple, straightforward character. But what he's achieved wasn't simple. It was excruciatingly difficult. And as he'll tell you today, it still is. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays) Will, I am... Sometimes when I have guests on this podcast I don't really know where to start. But with you it's slightly different. Um, as I was reading about your story, and I've... You know, as I said to you before we started recording, I've been... I think actually in 2015 I was Deliv- Deliveroo's biggest customer. So I'd like you to confirm that and re- reward me accordingly. But I think I was. Um, and I've watched the journey over the years and been absolutely blown away by it because of the disruption you caused to such a big incumbent industry. However, when I read into your story,
- 3:25 – 8:56
Your early years
- SBSteven Bartlett
I kept seeing this phrase that you'd say, and it really boggled my mind because it's so atypical of the guests I have on this podcast, and it's that every time you're asked about your childhood or whatever else, you'd always respond with, "I'm just a normal guy." And when I think about what you've achieved, you, you built what is now, you know, at least it was at one point, Europe's fastest-growing company. You couldn't possibly be just a normal guy.
- WSWill Shu
I, I, I don't know. I mean, I think I am. You know, when you're a kid I don't think you think anything is abnormal, it just sort of is what it is. Um, so I grew up in a place called New Haven, Connecticut. Uh, it's a small city. Um, about 130,000 people, uh, probably 10 square miles, so it's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- WSWill Shu
... pretty small. Um, it's where, uh, Yale University is.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, yeah.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah. So we're known for that and we're known for pizza. Those are probably the two things we're known for. Best pizza in the US is New Haven.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That explains why you went and started a delivery company. It's all there. (laughs)
- WSWill Shu
I mean, yeah, I was always obsessed with Sally's and Pepe's and Modern and all that. Um, but, yeah, look, my, my parents are immigrants, um, so, you know, I would say growing up, like, uh, I guess we didn't... Probably didn't spend very much money is probably the best way to put it. But when you're a kid you don't, you don't think about that. It's just kind of what you... (laughs) your daily existence, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your parents, wh- what did they do professionally?
- WSWill Shu
My mom, uh, my mom's a scientist. She works at Yale.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, wow.
- WSWill Shu
Um, my dad, uh, was an actuary. He retired. So they, they were, you know, well-educated sort of professional people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you... And that brought you over here to London?
- WSWill Shu
No, no. So, so my story is I, I... Yeah. I, I grew up in New Haven. Um, I went to university in, in Chicago. I went to a college called Northwestern.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- WSWill Shu
Um, and then my first job outta college, I worked on Wall Street in New York because this was 2001.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- WSWill Shu
And I, I took this job on. I mean, I did really well in, in, in school, both in university and in, in high school. Um, and it was just one of these jobs you did when you kind of didn't know what else you wanted to really do-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- WSWill Shu
... but you knew you could make money and you knew that other, you know, successful people, ambitious people kind of went down that path.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, so how did you end up in London?
- WSWill Shu
I ended up in London 'cause I worked for three years in New York. Uh, my third year, they said... I, I got another job at a different place and they asked me, "Hey, do you wanna, you know, check out a different office?" And I'd never lived outside the US. I wanted to do something different. I just took a chance, literally, on London. So I remember it really well. I came out in April '04.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- WSWill Shu
... Europe, never been to London, never been, been here. And so I showed up and I had such a great time. I met, you know, the people on the team and I'm like, "Fuck it. I'm gonna come. I'm only coming for a year," and then I ended up just basically staying.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And how old were you when you, when you came over here for the first time?
- WSWill Shu
I was 24.
- SBSteven Bartlett
24?
- WSWill Shu
Yeah.
- 8:56 – 25:56
What made you take on this industry?
- WSWill Shu
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was there... I mean, so many people have ideas, right? So many people have ideas for big, grandiose businesses, but w- it's almost like, and I'd hate to say this 'cause it sounds super pessimistic, but the odds are you're gonna fail. So how dare you? How dare you try and, uh, build that, you know, that l- massive logistical operation that is De- Deliveroo?
- WSWill Shu
You know, honestly, um, it's a really good point, right? 'Cause you, you're aware that there's the possibility of failure. I don't know. When I went into this, when I started it, I just said, "I'm not hedging myself in any which way. I'm not doing side projects. I'm just gonna focus on this 'cause I really, really believe it." Not so much the start up business, I believe in it as a consumer.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- WSWill Shu
Right? So I always thought about it as, you know, I'm building this business for myself as a consumer, and hopefully other people also, you know, kind of think similarly to me. And I was convinced that enough people did. And so I'm not one of these people that was like, "Oh, I need to start a business." I'm like, "I need to solve this problem," which I think is pretty different, in, in my mind. Now, I think people should start businesses because they wanna solve a problem or they, they're in an industry that they know super well and they've identified some inefficiency.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I-
- WSWill Shu
That's my view, at least.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I, I complete- I, you know, I've g- over the last three years I've heard this narrative that, like, it's much easier to start a business solving a problem that you and your best friend-
- WSWill Shu
You care about.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
Right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
Otherwise, like, you're gonna get bored.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
You know? You, you... I, I, I told this story before, it's totally true. I had a friend from business school, super smart guy, and he, he was, he had like 1,000 ideas. He'd write them all down. But his ideas were all predicated on some financial outcome, right? And he started this thing, it was the Etsy for pets, pet accessories or whatever. And I was like, "Okay, this sounds okay. Sounds okay." I read his deck and I'm like, "Wow, this is like, like a great idea." So he's like, "I'm gonna go do this." And then like nine months later I'm like, like, "Hey, how's it going?" He's like, "You know what? I just really don't like dogs and cats very much and so I just couldn't do it." Right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- WSWill Shu
But that, that's true. You can't do something that you're not actually fully invested in.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So many entrepreneurs will say that. They'll say... Or, no, not even entrepreneurs. So many people that are aspiring to start a business will say that phrase. They'll say, "I really want to be an entrepreneur. I just need an idea." And then you'll see them kind of, like, go and write down a list-
- WSWill Shu
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... of things that they could maybe do. And whenever I see that, and I, this, I just 100% stand by this, I always think they're gonna fail because of the reasons you described there, because you know they're gonna go through that absolute bullshit chaos.
- WSWill Shu
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, uh, I think it was Steve Jobs that said a sane person would quit i- when you go through the absolute chaos. So you have to love it and really understand it. It can't be because I think I'll make... Because you probably won't make money either, right?
- WSWill Shu
No, you won't, right? Or y- y- you can't go in with the assumption you will quickly-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quickly, yeah.
- WSWill Shu
... as well, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
And, you know, and I, I had this other guy I knew who he was like, "You know what? I, I, I..." He worked at a big consulting firm, I think it was McKinsey or something like that. And he's like, "In my spare time, I've started these three businesses." And I'm like, I'm like, "No, man. You can't do that. Like, you pick one thing-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Three busi-
- WSWill Shu
"... and you gotta, like, really go for it." D- different people have different sort of attitudes towards that. My, my view, though, is y- y- you just have to go all in.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right. So speaking of going all in, there must have been a day where you handed in your notice of resignation.
- 25:56 – 31:54
Your riders being discriminated against
- WSWill Shu
- SBSteven Bartlett
Psst. Do you wanna come in and watch this podcast live from behind the scenes? If you do, all you have to do is hit the subscribe button. And now that the world is opened up, you'll be behind the scenes as many of our subscribers have been. I can't wait to meet you. So, uh, you know, you've got f- f- four or five of you, um-
- WSWill Shu
The riders, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... riders, yeah. And you're... I hear that you're hanging out in a Starbucks-
- WSWill Shu
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... often. And you're just sitting there chilling, waiting for someone to... The phone.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah, we were just talking. I mean, you know, you know, there was like four of us there. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, you've got the founder of the company and, and f- three others? (laughs)
- WSWill Shu
The three riders, yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Just waiting for the phone to ping.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah, it was the three of us and it was... The same guy (laughs) would come to us and he'd be like, "All right, you guys gotta leave."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- WSWill Shu
We were like, "But we, we bought something," you know? He's like, kick us out every, every time, you know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And why was he kicking you out?
- WSWill Shu
I don't know. To be honest, I don't think he liked the look of us, if I'm honest with you. Um, yeah, you know, like, like, uh, I- I- I think, um... You know, and, and one day I went to him and I go, "What is your problem?" Like, you know, and he's just like, "Get out," right? And it was the way that he looked at us. The way he looked at me was almost like we were not people, right? We're s- we're kinda like... Anonymous is probably the best word I could use, and then sort of subhuman is probably (laughs) , you know, the- the- the worst word I could use, but it was like that. Like, we're just taking up space in this thing or making his coffee shop look kinda crappy, right? And I remember talking to the three other guys about it. They, like... They were just like, "Whatever, just let it go," like, like, "Who cares?" But I realized that that must be how a lot of people look at them all the time, right? 'Cause they're used to it, right? And for me, I wasn't really used to it so I was, like, really, really mad about it. But, you know, it... I definitely know what it was like to walk in their shoes, you know, for a day. Well, for, I guess, a whole year, 'cause I did that job for a long time. And that's why, you know, treating riders with respect and making sure their voices are heard is so important to me, 'cause of, you know, that... one of those incidents.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And th- those three, those three guys were from Pakistani descent.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So one would... One could assume that the, the reason why the st-
- WSWill Shu
Oh, I'm gonna definitely assume that. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah. I was assuming, just for... To be completely clear, I was assuming and en- uh, yeah, and asserting. Uh-
- WSWill Shu
Yeah, well, they're just l-... The way, you know, they're looking at us like, "Oh, these, these, these people are gonna make my store look shitty," you know, you could tell, right? And so, yeah, that, that was a kinda seminal moment, I think, f- for me and, and just talking to these guys. But they were just so sort of, like, either jaded or-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Numb to it, yeah.
- WSWill Shu
... kind of numb to it. They're like, "Well," or, like, "Whatever."
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause they-
- WSWill Shu
It seems to happen to them all the time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause they experience that type of prejudice-
- WSWill Shu
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and discrimination all the time.
- 31:54 – 34:25
The name of the company at the start
- SBSteven Bartlett
lives off it.
- WSWill Shu
If I drink this, am I gonna wanna eat food as well?
- SBSteven Bartlett
No.
- WSWill Shu
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
No chance.
- WSWill Shu
So it's, so it's a good way to like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes.
- WSWill Shu
... lose weight and all that kind of stuff.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes.
- WSWill Shu
Oh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
No chance.
- WSWill Shu
I, I wonder if I can buy this on Deliveroo maybe.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, you talk about e- the, the very early days of delivery. One of the things that founders struggle with a lot, and I did as well, is, is the name of the company. And I heard, I r- I was reading about that you were going to call it-
- WSWill Shu
(laughs) Oh no. (laughs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But I love this story because I think it highlights how crappy some decisions-
- WSWill Shu
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... are at the start. I heard you were gonna call Deliveroo something else.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah. There were, there were a few different, um, permutations. One was, uh, F- Food Pony.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) I didn't read about that.
- WSWill Shu
Because, because I was thinking of these animals and food.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- WSWill Shu
Um, I think one was, uh-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Food Pony. Not bad.
- WSWill Shu
F- um, I think it was, um ... I'm trying to think here. It was like, uh ... yeah, it was Food Mule, was, was another one. 'Cause-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- WSWill Shu
... you know, a mule is a-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Food Mule. Not bad.
- WSWill Shu
... kind of transports, um ... f- not, not so good, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about Booze Food?
- WSWill Shu
(laughs)
- 34:25 – 38:25
Your co-founder
- WSWill Shu
you can put in some cheat code and then it's like literally like all the bad stuff for you." So that ... maybe we'll implement that at some point. I don't know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) You chose to ignore him.
- WSWill Shu
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- WSWill Shu
It was a pretty funny idea.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting. Um, t- talking about co-founders, another sort of integral part of success in business, how, um ... h- how did things go with Greg? I, I, I know that he's no longer in the business-
- WSWill Shu
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... but he ... at some point he departed.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, look, without Greg, the business wouldn't exist, right? No, no question about it. I think, um, you know, he's one of the smartest, uh, hardest working people I know. We grew up together.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- WSWill Shu
He's one of my best friends. We've been friends since we were 12. Um, I think, um, for Greg, he, he wouldn't move to the UK.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm. Ever?
- WSWill Shu
Um, he just wouldn't do it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Never? Hmm.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah, I guess he d- you know? He's too American. I don't know. But no, he, he, h- h- his wife was in a, um ... she, she was getting her MD degree in the US. And so it was like hard for him to like come over here. And ultimately, you know, at some point ... So he built a, um, engineering team in Chicago where he was living.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- WSWill Shu
But at some point I was like, "No, this is ... this business is real. Like, we gotta, we gotta have the team all together."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- WSWill Shu
And so, you know, made a decision and he, he, he left the business in late '15, early '16 or so.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- WSWill Shu
Um, but I st- I mean, I have a great relationship t- uh, with him. We were just chatting last night.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- WSWill Shu
But yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Founders go through hell together.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Me and my founder, co-founder did.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah. We went (laughs) we went through a lot. But you know it was tough when he left, right? Because I didn't have, um ... there's not someone I can talk to on that same level, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah, you've got your, you know, your, your, your s- sort of other execs and you've got, you know, a board of directors, but i- it's different.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- 38:25 – 47:53
What were some of your hardest challenges?
- WSWill Shu
purely... Your experience in Chicago and London is the same on certain types of businesses. For us, it's very different.
- SBSteven Bartlett
True. Very true. Talking about going through hell with founders and co-founders, and just generally the hell of starting startups. Um, one of the real reasons I founded this podcast was because, and this is kind of clued in the name, is 'cause I didn't feel like the full journey of a founder is ever really told, the re-... uh, specifically the hard parts. Um, and I, I know that in your journey to build the business you did, you've confronted all kinds of awful challenges.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right? Talk to me about some of those awful challenges, especially at the start.
- WSWill Shu
Doesn't get easier, I'll tell you that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Right.
- WSWill Shu
Right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
So, I mean, the business is really, you know, six... significantly sized business now, but I wouldn't say it gets easier. They're just different, right? So year one, I would say the big challenge is no money-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- WSWill Shu
... you know, me and Greg running around, right? Um, I think my biggest challenge was at some point... So I think I was lucky in the sense the business momentum sort of did take... It wasn't like super, it wasn't like this, but there were new customers and we, we knew this thing was working, but I didn't know how big it was b-... it would be. And at some point... because I was delivering food every single night, right? And at some point, I remember my, my flatmate, uh, he went to business school with me, Forrest, and he, he kind of looks at me, and he's a good friend of mine, right? He says... he's like, "What are you doing?" And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "You just deliver food for five hours every night. That's like what you do." And I'm like, "Yeah, 'cause I gotta... who else is gonna do it?" And he was just like... he kind of looked at me and he's just like, "All right." You know? And then I (laughs) kind of like... 'cause, 'cause I, you know... I worked in these jobs that you can, you know, make a lot of money before. I, I had this summer internship at Wharton that was like the one everyone wanted, and I just decided to do something else. And, um, no, he was kind of like... he thought I was like losing my mind, right? And then I thought ab-... 'cause I'm not a very like... I don't even think I'm that introspective to be honest. So I don't... I, I'm kind of like, "I got stuff to do, I'm gonna like do it." And so he was like, "Hey man, you should like think about (laughs) what you're doing," right? And I did. And I was kind of like freaking out a bit, just like sitting in my, in my small room like, "What am I doing?" Right? "Am I... where's this gonna go?" And then I just was like, "You know, fuck it. Like I think this is going great, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick to it." So that was hard. Um, I would say, um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you come close to q- quitting at that stage?
- WSWill Shu
No, I never did.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- WSWill Shu
Never. Greg did though.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
Greg did. I never did. I'm not li-... I just, I just wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't let that happen.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- WSWill Shu
I don't know, man. I just, I just feel like I have such responsibility to the people I, I work with, the, the restaurants and the riders and... I don't know, you just start... L- look, I'll tell you what I'm not. I'm not one of these people... You know, you read about Bezos, like, "Hey, I'm gonna start with books. Books are easy to transport. I'm gonna move on to all these other things." This grand plan in their mind. I'm not like that at all. But what I did see was... I saw success, that fuels more ambition, you get into this circular path. And so I was, I was on it like that. And I just also have this just immense sense of responsibility to people, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Similar to that story you told about your friend there, I read that you one day knocked on a door to deliver some food and it was one of your-
- WSWill Shu
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... former colleagues from...
- WSWill Shu
Yeah, from a hedge fund, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I find this fascinating because people don't often talk about embarrassment as being one of the real key barrier to entries to start businesses and to pursue your, your dreams.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it's such a tough barrier. Like humiliation and embarrassment, and that look. I remember that look fondly of the people I was living with when I was 18, 19, and you tell them what you're doing, and that kind of like smirky, like, "Oh, okay." Hmm.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah, that happened. I also... Y- I mean, that story, yeah. So-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- 47:53 – 52:34
Your mental health journey
- SBSteven Bartlett
and there's, you know, a cou- couple of you in that room, things are tough, right? You- you're talking about, you know, you're burning cash. All startups, it's s- especially tech ones, tend to be burning cash.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, what- what was your mental health journey from that point till now?
- WSWill Shu
Look, I'd say this, um, I don't know about other people. I- I don't think I'm a very up-and-down person. Uh, so I guess that's probably a good thing, but I'm not totally sure. Could mean I'm just suppressing a lot of stuff. I don't really know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
Right? But, um, I don't have like these enormous ups where I'm like going around jumping up and down, and I'm not going bananas when things are, you know, kind of going bad. Uh, uh, uh that- that being said, some of my former colleagues in the early days might disagree with me. I would absolutely go nuts when I thought an order was handled inappropriately or customer service interaction was, um, handled inappropriately. I think some people probably t- they can have some memories of that. But I kind of got over that and, uh, don't- don't (laughs) really do that anymore. But I would say...A lot of the journey is super, super, super hard. I'm happy to talk about any of those stories with you, but there's definitely been long periods of time, not just, like, for hours, like long periods of time where we're just like, "Man, this is, this has to get easier." Or, like, uh, you know, you're just... I forget if it was Elon Musk or who- whoever talks about it, the standing on the abyss thing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know.
- WSWill Shu
You know, chewing glass. I've felt that, like, many, many, many times. Right? That's hard. It's really hard.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If you'd known it would be that hard, would you have started? Thinking about your toughest moments, if you'd known you would have had to- had- go through that, that chewing glass, staring into the abyss, would you have started Deliveroo?
- WSWill Shu
Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
If on the day where you thought, "I'm gonna start Deliveroo today," I'd come and I'd shown you a tape of those moments.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah, but I guess it's a little hard to say, because if you told me, "Hey, business would be where it is today," would I have started it? Probably yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- WSWill Shu
If you had told me (laughs) it wouldn't work out and I'd be having chewing glass for, like, years, then probably not, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- WSWill Shu
It all... It's... It all depends. But it... it's, like, hard to a completely different degree because, as the founder, you think about it every single hour. You think about it, you know, when you're in bed, you know, when you're- when you're t- talking to a friend. You're... It's in... You can't escape it, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You touched your head there when you said, "You can't escape it." That's where it is, right?
- WSWill Shu
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's where it lives. It lives in your head at all times.
- WSWill Shu
All times. You can't escape it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Talk me through the specific details of those moments, though, the- when you... Uh, one example of an issue.
- WSWill Shu
So- so one of them was we were... Um, so- so back in 2017. Holy shit. I guess, four years ago now. Yeah. We were, um, you know, we'd raised a bunch of money from our, kind of, investors. So that was Index, Accel, Greenoaks, DST, uh, you know, businesses, sort of, flying. Um, and then, um, we were gonna raise money from, you know, the world's biggest fund, right? I'm not gonna name who they are, but you can probably guess who they are at some point. Right? Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Softbank. (laughs)
- WSWill Shu
Uh... Man.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- WSWill Shu
So- so anyway. So we were- (laughs) we were about to do that. Um, we just... Term sheet signed, doing due diligence, summer of '17. And, um, you know, big round. And, um, all of a sudden, I get a call, like, "Oh, we..." Three days before it was supposed to close. "Oh, we can't do this, you know." Blah, blah, blah reason. I think it was related to-
- SBSteven Bartlett
WeWork.
- WSWill Shu
It was... It was related to Uber, I think, at the time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- WSWill Shu
Or something like that.
- 52:34 – 1:01:07
One of my hardest moments in Delieveroo
- WSWill Shu
it was great. We ended up, you know, working with, um, you know, Fidelity and T. Rowe Price, so we got in terrific investors. So at the end of the day, you look back on it, it was like, "Oh, that's a, actually, really good outcome." But at the time, it was really hard.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But that is so synonymous and typical with building a business, just that unex- I mean, this year's b- I mean, COVID-19 was an example of that, just unexpected, unpredictable, unanticipated, crippling bullshit at any time. And this is why I find it almost impossible for founders not to live with some form of anxiety, because you know when you wake up e- an- on any day, there's a high probability you're gonna get a text message or an email about something you didn't think about has just totally gone wrong.
- WSWill Shu
Well, I'll tell you- I'll tell you a story about COVID, actually. It- it- it actually predates COVID a bit. So we raised the next round of capital, um, so, uh, from Amazon, which you- you- you probably know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm. Yes.
- WSWill Shu
The way this happened, though, was- was really crazy. So we had, um, spent a bunch of time, um, with Amazon. They decided to invest. You know, we negotiated the deal. All normal. And then they were great and we... The due diligence process, I was like, "Wow, these guys (laughs) really know what they're doing," right? So it was really- it was really great. So we announced the deal. Um, and again, you know, we're loss-making, so we need the money, right? And again, this was a big round. And the, um, the CMA, the antitrust authorities-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- WSWill Shu
... in- in the UK, they're just like, "We need to review this." But they wouldn't actually let us take the money in. Right? And we're like, "But how are we supposed to compete when, you know, we compete against the likes of Uber and Just Eat, you know, that are well-funded?" They're kind of like, "It's not really our problem," you know. We're like, "Well, you know, we're British company trying to build, you know, a big tech business here." And so that whole process was excruciating, because it was 18 months long.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Fucking hell.
- WSWill Shu
Right? 16, 16 months, 18 months long, where Amazon was a minority shareholder in our company. I think a 13% stake, 14% stake shareholder. Same as some of the other, like, investors, right? They had one board seat. Everything was normal. It's... And, you know, these guys just literally, kind of, went after, you know, this, um, in an unprecedented way.... but we couldn't get the capital in, right? So, we're just going, we're like, "What do we do?" And we're at the mercy of some sort of, you know, institution, right? It's not like, a free market type of thing you can go and like find out... You know, we're at the mercy of this situation. And so they took us through what they call their phase one investigation, which lasted like six months, and then a phase two investigation that lasts another eight months. So, that was terrible, right? Utterly terrible, because you don't actually have any idea what's going to happen, because it's not, it's not a logical process, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- WSWill Shu
It's sort of like, you know, it's the whim of someone else, right? It's not, it's not a logical process. At the same time, what started happening was COVID kicked off in, what, Jan, Feb of 2020, right? So, we're running low on money 'cause we couldn't get money in for whatever, 14 months, whatever it was. COVID kicks off, and COVID, what it did to us initially was our restaurant partners were shutting down for delivery and dine-in. Not just dine-in, right? And so the restaurants on the platform started plummeting, you know, in Europe and the UK. Now, Asia was different, they handled it very differently. But we didn't... our users were, were disappearing because there were no restaurants left on the platform, right? And I don't know what they were doing. I guess they were going to Ocado or whatever. And so we see this plummeting growth. We have to... and we had to do the hardest thing. I had to do the hardest thing I ever had to do. I had to lay off, you know, a significant number of people at the company. Which just was the... yeah, it was the hardest thing I had to do. You know? Like, big layoffs because we, we just didn't know what the future was gonna be like. We were in the middle of an antitrust process, hoping to get a lot of money in. Our business is plummeting. Yeah, it was really bad. Really bad. I mean, worse for people that lost their jobs, obviously, but really bad.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sleepless nights.
- WSWill Shu
I always sleep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- WSWill Shu
Um, but yeah, the days were hard. The days were hard.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You cite that moment as being the toughest in your journey at Deliveroo?
- WSWill Shu
Yeah, I do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- WSWill Shu
I do. Just that whole... because it's, it's not like a problem you or I could solve, right? If it's like, hey, you know, we didn't do this round, I can go and raise more capital, whatever. We can go figure it out. Or this feature doesn't work well the way we want it to. We can figure out a way to iterate around that. There's an org structure issue. Well, we can figure that out. But when you're at the whim of a government institution, that's a very different feeling. That's a... you're totally not in control.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, man.
- WSWill Shu
And when it lasts for that long, then... and the issue is, you're a tech company, you can't not compete hard for 14, 16 months, right? That's not the world... the way the world works. It's not like, uh, you know, two grocery chains-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
... battling it out, right? It's just different. And so yeah, I'd say that was hard, and it was compounded with the fact that we had to lay off all these people, right? It was the hardest thing we had to do. Now, luckily for us, these restaurants re-established themselves and the business has been on this amazing trajectory. But that was tough.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What goes into your thought process when you realize you've got to lay off a significant amount of people? You know that it has dominoes effec- domino effects, you know that it's gonna be a press story, all of these things. You know that people are losing their jobs, their livelihoods, at a time when they, you know, when th- they're going through a-
- WSWill Shu
When, when, when, when... at a time when the, the future's so uncertain, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
What's going through my head? My... I mean, just, it's fucking terrible, right? I, I don't know what else to say, you know? Like, we have to do it, but it's terrible. And getting up in front of the company and explaining to people why this is the right thing to do, really hard. These are their friends, colleagues, you know, lost a lot of really great people, you know? It was definitely the hardest thing we've ever had to do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Those are the days when it sucks to be a CEO, right?
- WSWill Shu
Look, the job is like... Oh, I'm so proud of what we've built and I'm so excited about the future. But like, it is a hard, hard job, and anyone that tells you otherwise is either having an exceptional experience or, or they're not being honest, right? I also think it's different when you're the founder, when you're the founder CEO, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- 1:01:07 – 1:03:21
What do you do to relax?
- WSWill Shu
time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.That point around anxiety I think is, um, specifically interesting because, um, it's- I think it's definitely increasing in our generation because of social media and we all have more tabs open than ever before. CEOs are people that, as you've alluded to, walk around with all the tabs open all the time. What do you do to relax in moments like that when you're in the middle of a system?
- WSWill Shu
I probably don't do a good job with that. You know, I can put a pretty calm face on 'cause I'm not- I'm just not naturally like an up and down person, but... I- you know, I try breathing exercises, you know, I- I try to really kinda just not think about anything sometimes. I tried that Calm, um, app.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
I got through day six of the 30-day challenge.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- WSWill Shu
Got a- got a- got a little bored at day seven, but, but, um, I used to read a lot. I used to read a book a week. I- now at this point it's- it's- it's been a while since I read a book which is- makes me a little sad. This is like my favorite thing to do. That does work, or you just kinda go for a walk. I- I go on long walks all the time. That really helps me out a lot.
- SBSteven Bartlett
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- 1:03:21 – 1:07:49
Challenges of having a romantic relationship as a CEO
- SBSteven Bartlett
My Energy on board is a signal that this podcast is gonna get bigger. The production's gonna get better, the guests are gonna get bigger, the stories are gonna get more compelling, and I couldn't be more excited to share all of that with you. Could you- could you talk to me about wha- what i- without going into specifics about people or whatever, can you talk to me about the, um, challenge of having and sustaining romantic relationships while you're also- you've got this baby and this obsession which is all-consuming?
- WSWill Shu
I think it's like... Yeah, I- I think the brain is capable of kind of filling itself up with certain things and then there's just not room for other things.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
I mean, that's how I think about it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- WSWill Shu
I don't know if that's fair, and, you know, some people would say that- that- that... I'm- I'm- I'm certain that other people can- can- can- can fill their brains up with more, but I'm like a very obsessive person, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- WSWill Shu
I don't know if you have the same type of-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm the exact same. That's why I asked the question 'cause I- I was hoping you might be able to tell me how to fix it. (laughs)
- WSWill Shu
I'm- I'm not the right guy to tell-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- WSWill Shu
... to tell you on that, so.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. I- I- I've struggled for that same reason, just being very uncompromising with time, and I hear compromise is an important part to sustaining a healthy relationship.
- WSWill Shu
I heard that too.
- SBSteven Bartlett
From all of my ex-girlfriends. (laughs)
- WSWill Shu
But I don't know if like, um... Yeah, but I don't know if like it's also like, you know, we do this because, you know, I don't know, like we're hiding from something else or like, you know... I don't know. That's something I think about sometimes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You think about that?
- WSWill Shu
A little bit, right? Like why am I so obsessive? But then I think back and I've always been obsessive about everything, so I don't really think it's changed, but...
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I started my career in business and I was obsessive, locking myself in a room, not really seeing my friends either, I thought this is the way to live life. It's just about get rich, get, um, successful and then everything else, happiness will arrive at that point. Like not- it- not that I wasn't happy, but just my happiness wouldn't scale to some point like euphoria. So, this is all it. So you get successful, you get some money, and you realize that your happiness probably, for me, I'm speaking for myself here, doesn't necessarily scale. It doesn't go down, but doesn't really move upwards that much. And then I start reading about, um, the importance of meaningful connections and relationships and all these things, w- watching this odd TED Talk about how men in relationships over a 100-year study live longer or happier, et cetera, et cetera, are more healthy. And I think, "Fuck, do you know what? I actually think I've- I've- I've fucked up. I actually think maybe I should have attributed more time to relationships."
- WSWill Shu
But can you? Can you just be so intentional about everything? I mean, I don't know. May- maybe you can. I don't know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But you must- you must understand the importance, right? According to like the science anyway of having...
- WSWill Shu
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, we make the decisions (laughs) we do. I don't know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- WSWill Shu
You know? It's all- it's- it- there's a difference between an abstraction and actually what happens, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. But you- uh, 'cause I have- have worried that I might regret it someday, that I might have had my priorities wrong this whole fucking time.
- WSWill Shu
You're a young man though.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Has that ever crossed your mind that you might have misu- you might have put your priorities in the wrong place? Has it never crossed your mind?
- WSWill Shu
To be honest, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- WSWill Shu
But I'm not a very retrospective person at all.
- 1:07:49 – 1:09:53
Delieveroo's IPO journey
- SBSteven Bartlett
podcast, because I think there isn't a- there isn't th- this warning about the sacrifice. It's all, "Oh, my God. Look, he's fucking rich, and he's got..." Or, "I'd love to..." And I think the balance is important. Let me take you up until the- the- the IPO. So, you do, um... Company goes public. Um, our company went public via reverse merger.
- WSWill Shu
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, things change. It's tough, um, because you now have the scrutiny of the public markets.
- WSWill Shu
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Talk to me about h- that whole journey and how you found that.
- WSWill Shu
Um, yeah. So, I think the whole IPO process, you know, was... It was a lot of work for about, kinda three, four months before the IPO. I think we were all kinda looking forward to, you know, something, you know, really exciting. Um, and it- and it was really exciting to take a company public, you know, um, you know, a- you know, at a- at a- at a big market cap. Um, you know, some- coming from an idea. Obviously, sort of the- the day one, you know, trading was- was hard, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- WSWill Shu
'Cause I'm not, like, I don't really... Like I said, I don't really care that much about what people think, and I don't really read the media that much or anything like that. But when it's that pervasive? (laughs) You know? It's on the front page of every, you know, single newspaper, you know, telling you, you know, "You guys fucked up," or, "You did this." Yeah, it was tough for a few weeks, I'll be honest with you. It was tough for a few weeks, you know? The-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because the market cap fell.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
From so many people.
- WSWill Shu
Just, like, you know, there's a lot of... You know, y- y- people in the company are like, "Oh," like, "What's going on?" And you're on investor calls, like, "What's going on?" And ultimately, the way I sort of think about it is, you know, so proud of the fact we got here, right? I'm actually just focused on the business. How do we grow the business? How do we move the business in the right strategic direction, right? And I'm super, super, super optimistic about the future. For all the stuff we've been doing for the past few years, gonna come to fruition, you know, in the future in all the future-facing stuff we're working on now. So, if I'm very honest with
- 1:09:53 – 1:13:02
I still do deliveries
- WSWill Shu
you, I don't think about stock price. I actually think about the business. But for a few weeks, it was, like, difficult, right? It was very hard.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm. And then there's all these stories written, which we- we talked about a l- a little bit, but l- all these stories written about drivers. Are they employees?
- WSWill Shu
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are they contractors? Um, the unique position you've got is you've actually been a rider, and in fact-
- WSWill Shu
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you still are.
- WSWill Shu
Yeah. I did. I did, you know, five deliveries last night, you know, in Notting Hill. And I talk to riders all the time. I know what they want. We're building a business for our riders, for our restaurant grocer partners, for our consumers. That's, they're cust- they're all customers at the end of the day. That's how we think about it, right? So, a model that actually works for them has gotta be the most important thing. And we know our model, can it improve? Absolutely, it can improve. We can improve everything. But do we think it's the best model for them? Yeah, 100%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Your company's worth, you know, billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions, and you're out last night doing delivery riders-
Episode duration: 1:25:09
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