Doctor Tim Spector: The Shocking New Truth About Weight Loss, Calories & Diets | E209

1. 0:00 – 2:17

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      Exercise doesn't help weight loss?

   2. TSTim Spector0:02

      No. The reason exercise doesn't work is because... Professor Tim Spector.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:07

      He's an award-winning scientist.

   4. TSTim Spector0:09

      Best-selling author and medical professor. And he is ranked in the top 100 of the world's most cited scientists. We're going to be talking about the future of personalized nutrition.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:17

      Many consider you to be the leading expert on gut health and diet. What's your view on the ketogenic diet?

   6. TSTim Spector0:23

      Virtually impossible.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett0:24

      What about vitamins?

   8. TSTim Spector0:25

      Waste of money.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett0:26

      What are the facts around fasting?

   10. TSTim Spector0:28

       Oh, dear.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett0:29

       Oh, shit. What'd you mean, "Oh, dear"?

   12. TSTim Spector0:31

       The food industry wants you to focus on calorie and fat content and sugar so you don't have to think about the quality of the food. There's never been any long-term study showing that calorie counting is an effective way to lose weight and maintain weight loss. This is why I want people to think about food very differently than we have done in the past.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett0:52

       So what is the cost?

   14. TSTim Spector0:55

       Depression and anxiety is intricately linked to the quality of your gut microbes. These are microscopic bugs in our intestines. All of them are able to pump out chemicals that are vital for our body when they're fed the right foods. The reason we're in this state is we've killed off a lot of our good bugs. I think people don't think of all the positive benefits, that don't think that you need to build them up.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett1:17

       God, it's so confusing. You know, when you walk down the aisle in the supermarket, everything is trying to pretend that it's good. So how do I know what is good?

   16. TSTim Spector1:25

       You have to...

   17. SBSteven Bartlett1:29

       Quick one. At the start of these episodes, I told you that 74% of people who watch this channel frequently haven't yet hit the subscribe button. And I told you that the bigger the channel gets, the better the guests get, and hopefully I've delivered upon that for you. So there's two things I wanted to tell you. The first is, if you've ever enjoyed this channel, could you do me a favor, and my team here a favor, which is hit that subscribe button, because it helps this channel more than you know. And as I say, the bigger the channel, the better the guests. But also, we're approaching one million subscribers, and when we hit one million subscribers, we've been working for many months to do something very big in which you're all invited to. I'll reveal that when we hit a million subscribers. Tim,

2. 2:17 – 5:13

   Professional bio

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:17

      many consider you to be the leading expert on topics relating to gut health and diet and food, et cetera, but how would you describe your own professional, academic bio? What is that bio, in your own words?

   2. TSTim Spector2:34

      It's complicated. So, I've changed form over the years, quite a lot. And I'm quite unusual in, in, in terms of academic medics, who usually stick very strictly to one specialty all their career and fear to go anywhere else. So, I was at medical school, did the usual stuff, then wanted to be a physician, then did rheumatology.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:02

      What's rheumatology?

   4. TSTim Spector3:03

      Erm, bones and joints.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:05

      Okay.

   6. TSTim Spector3:05

      So that was my spec- sub-specialty, if you like.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett3:08

      Mm-hmm.

   8. TSTim Spector3:09

      And... But I got interested in epidemiology, which is the study of, uh, risk factors in populations, where you just look at thousands of people rather than one patient. Really, I, I'd switched again to study... because I, I'd got really interested in the idea that identical twins should be the same. They're clones, they've lived all their life together, all their genes are identical. What makes them different? Counter to what everyone thought, identical twins often die at different times. They get different diseases. One gets depression, one's fine. Ex- all these differences. So what... That was my sort of conundrum. What makes identical twins different when they have the same li- they've lived the same lives? It was only through this sort of search to find this out that I l- looked at the gut microbes in, in twins and found they were different. And that really scientifically took me onto this whole new path. From there, I made this sort of leap into nutrition, to say, "Well, now we've discovered this whole new science, all this stuff we got wrong about nutrition suddenly makes sense." So now I would say I'm, you know, an epidemiologist who's really, erm, specializing in, in nutrition and gut health and trying to change the way people think about food.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett4:38

      That was a brilliant summary of your career and a- and academic background. Um, as a Muggle like me that's really, you know, new to m- many of these topics, what I understand is, the study of epidemiology is the study of the, like, genetic root causes of disease.

   10. TSTim Spector4:54

       Not just genetic.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett4:55

       Right, so any-

   12. TSTim Spector4:56

       So any, anything.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett4:56

       ... any root cause of disease, right.

   14. TSTim Spector4:57

       S- so the people studying COVID-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett4:59

       Yeah.

   16. TSTim Spector5:00

       ... were all epidemiologists, tracking a disease, trying to work out who's getting it, when's it coming back, how common it is.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett5:07

       Right.

   18. TSTim Spector5:07

       All these basic things in populations, at a, at a sort of big population level.

3. 5:13 – 10:18

   Why are you doing this

   1. TSTim Spector5:13

   2. SBSteven Bartlett5:13

      Right, got you. You've also written 800 articles, more than 800 articles, on this subject matter. Um, in 2014, you set up the British Gut Microbiome Project, and you've written five books on these subject matters. I mean, I've read two of them that are sat in front of me here. Um, I'm really intrigued by, by the personal story as well, because writing these books and doing all the work you've done is a lot. It's a lot of work. It requires a lot of drive. I mean, this particular book, you, you said it took almost six years to finish. What is the personal drive behind that? What is driving you to pursue th- this subject matter?

   3. TSTim Spector5:51

      You know, I just love getting into a new area, finding out that something that everyone's been quoting for decades is total BS and was based on some tiny study of nine people. It's like I'm a detective.... and so I've always had this, this quest to sort of be this ob- obsessional detective, I think, going into these areas. And at the same time, it's, that's coincided with, you know, various events in my life as well that, um, have probably pushed me in certain directions more than other, you know, that I wouldn't have gone otherwise.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett6:27

      What were those events in your life?

   5. TSTim Spector6:30

      I guess, you know, I was a pretty lazy s- um, student at school.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett6:36

      Same.

   7. TSTim Spector6:36

      Might surp- surprise some people. We always assume if you're a professor and you've made it, you were a swot at school. But I did the absolute minimum. So, I scraped into medical school, scraped through the first few years of medical school. I'd spent one year proving that you didn't have to go to any lectures and could still pass, uh, which was a lot of work actually. At the end, I realized it was harder. Then, of course, age 21, my father died, um, suddenly overnight with a heart attack. Uh, no warning at all. I was off on a skiing holiday with some friends. And I think in retrospect that, that event, uh, changed me and, um, perhaps gave me, you know, a bit more, uh, direction and drive than I would have had. I'm not quite sure, you know, how it would've turned out if he hadn't died. Um, but to me, him dying at 57 suddenly like that, um, made me think I, I need to y- you know, make more of my life. I could die early too. This was something that, uh, you know, I think spurred me on to do all this kind of stuff that I didn't need to do, but, um, I felt perhaps more compulsion to do, and maybe also got me interested in this whole idea of genetics to say, "Well, um, you know, did he have rotten genes? Um, am I, have I got the same genes? Am I going to die in my 50s?" So I think that looking back now, I think that's, it's hard to be absolutely sure, but that, that seems a, a reasonable scenario.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett8:18

      I've read and I've heard from members of your team that that left you with a feeling, as you've kind of said there, that you might also die young if it is a genetic thing.

   9. TSTim Spector8:26

      Definitely, yes. No, uh, I was always telling my kids, you know, "This is, this is it, you know. I'm only, I'm only he-" I was sort of half joking, but saying, "Well, you know, uh, you know, my time's, you know, I've only got seven years to go now. I've," you know, whatever it is. Um-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett8:38

       You were saying that to your kids?

   11. TSTim Spector8:40

       Yes. You know, that, uh, uh-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett8:41

       To try and prepare them?

   13. TSTim Spector8:43

       I guess so. But it was my way of, you know... I did it in a jokey way. It wasn't like, um, I was writing my will and saying, you know, "The candlesticks are here and the, uh, uh, everything else." But it was, um... Yeah, I used to make light of it. But, you know, underneath it, yes, I felt, "Well, you know, I could go early, so I need to get on with it, I think." And I was also, at that time, um, probably speed, was sped up by another personal incident I had at that time.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett9:14

       Which was a mini stroke?

   15. TSTim Spector9:17

       Yes. Uh, we call it a mini stroke. It, uh, uh, it's a vascular occlusion, but I couldn't work for three months. I couldn't read, and I got a bit depressed about that.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett9:28

       So those three months where you, you can't read, um, I read that you were, the quote, "I went from being a sporty, fitter than average middle-aged man to a pill-popping depressed stroke victim with high blood pressure." They said you were floored by this experience, and for three months you couldn't work. From having a pretty fast-paced, frenetic life to being bed-bound. And in those three months you, your focus on the microbiome increases, right?

   17. TSTim Spector9:59

       Yes. I, I was, I was just finishing up the very last bits of the, the previous book, Identically Different, which is about why twins were different.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett10:07

       Right.

   19. TSTim Spector10:09

       And as a sort of afterthought, I, I added one page about, well, actually the microbiome could be the key to this.

4. 10:18 – 17:35

   The gut microbiome

   1. TSTim Spector10:18

   2. SBSteven Bartlett10:18

      What is the microbiome?

   3. TSTim Spector10:20

      Uh, it's the word we use for the community of gut microbes. These are microscopic bugs in our intestines. And it, it's, uh, a biome because it's like this jungle community. It's, uh, lots of different species altogether, thousands of them that co-exist in our, in our lower intestine, our colon. And they, it's like we've discovered in the last 10 years a new organ in our bodies. If you put them all together, they weigh about the same as our brain. Okay? So it's, that's mind-boggling really to think about all these bugs which, uh, individually are tiny. Putting together, they actually, you know, they weigh several pounds. So, you can either think of them as a, as a microbial garden, but increasingly I'm shifting that towards thinking of them as, uh, an incredible pharmacy. So all of them are able to pump out chemicals all the time that are vital for our body. So thousands of different chemicals are pumped out every minute by these, these gut microbes, uh, when they're fed the right foods. And these chemicals are key for our immune system. Most of our immune system is actually in our gut. We d- most people don't know that. We think it's, you know, under our armpits or somewhere.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett11:41

      (laughs)

   5. TSTim Spector11:41

      But actually, um, the, all the immune cells are actually talking all the time to our gut, uh, microbes through these chemicals, and that our immune system obviously is crucial for our whole body and fighting aging and cancer, COVID infections, allergies, all these kind of things. So then you've also got the microbes can produce chemicals that affect the brain and will make the difference between you being happy or sad or we know that they're, they've, they're vital in depression.... important for h- regulating how much you eat, your appetite, when you feel full. They also provide key vitamins for you, all the B vitamins and many other components, neurochemicals like serotonin that's key for the happiness and how antidepressants work are all produced by your gut microbes. So, we're slowly learning that these guys are absolutely crucial to how our body responds to anything coming into it, whether it's painkillers, whether it's antidepressants, whether it's chemicals in the form of food. And this is why, uh, uh, you know, I want people to think about food very differently than we have done in the past. The idea, the old idea that food is just calories, macros, you know, with its fats and carbs and proteins, those four things, you know, that's 100 years old mentality. But key to it is this, this core of our gut health, which we've ignored totally, and this was this big aha moment for me. After research for 10 years, what, why would identical twins, twins be different? What could it be? And it turns out their gut microbes are different. That's the only thing I've ever found in 30 years that's really different about identical twins, and that explains why one gets cancer, the other one doesn't, why one gets an autoimmune disease or one's depressed and one's happy. So, for me, that, the twins were perfect, um, obvious way to show that, how important these, these microbes are for all of us.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett13:57

      What are some of the, the biggest myths you encountered as you started researching the microbiome that most people currently believe, that I probably sat here now believe about how to keep my, um, my gut healthy? What are some of those key myths? 'Cause I know you like myth-busting.

   7. TSTim Spector14:13

      Well, I think most people believe that probiotics in yogurt get killed by your stomach acid, so they don't work because your, everything gets killed off. That's a common one I hear.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett14:25

      But they don't?

   9. TSTim Spector14:26

      No. Um, some get killed, but you're ingesting billions, so always enough get through to have an effect, and we know that probiotics do work. Although, the best probiotics are in food rather than in capsules. And there's plenty of fermented foods which is the same. Um, I think, um, I mean, most people know very little about microbes. They think that most of them are harmful, so, "Oh, I've," you know, they, they cultured this microbe or they found a parasite. 50,000 people have now looked at their gut microbes in the US and the UK. In the UK, 24% have a parasite, and that parasite is actually beneficial. It's called Blastocystis, and it's associated with good health, being thinner, having less internal fat, lower blood pressure, and, you know, in the past, we're trying to kill it off, and actually, reason we're in this state is we've killed off a lot of our good bugs. So, I think people need to realize that most of the bugs in our, in our system are trying to help us, and we've actually lost half of the good ones compared to if you go to hunter-gatherers, or, you know, I spent some time with the Hadza tribe in Africa, and, you know, they have twice the number of species that we have because they don't pop antibiotics, they don't have sterile foods, they have a very wide range of, um, diverse plants, et cetera. So, I think people, uh, think that, you know, their, their gut microbes are really only there to hurt them when they have a bad kebab or something.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett16:12

       (laughs)

   11. TSTim Spector16:12

       Uh, they don't think of all the positive benefits, they don't think that you need to build them up, and that actually, you know, they're like a m- the more you've got, the better it is.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett16:22

       How do I build them up? How do I become more like that tribe?

   13. TSTim Spector16:27

       You have to have a more diverse range of plants. So, we did a study a few years ago with British and American guts that showed that if you can get up to 30 different types of plant a week, you maximize your diversity of species in your gut, and that's that diversity that we want. Remember, 30 plants, you look a bit shocked, but that's, um, it's, a plant is a nut, a seed. It's not just kale. Um, it's a herb, it's a spice, and, you know, things like coffee are a plant to me.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett17:05

       Hmm.

   15. TSTim Spector17:05

       Um, 'cause it comes from a fermented bean. Um, so it's that diversity, it's having more fermented foods, it's, uh, having a range of colors, it's cutting out, um, the ultra-processed chemicals as well, which all the, all the groups in the population that have the best gut microbes, they don't eat ultra-processed foods, they don't have antibiotics, they don't have this, this modern Western lifestyle.

5. 17:35 – 25:17

   The counting calorie myth

   1. TSTim Spector17:35

   2. SBSteven Bartlett17:35

      You mentioned calories there as well, um, when you were talking about the microbiome. One of my friends is a prolific calorie counter, and, you know, he eats a lot of Domino's pizzas. He'll na- (laughs) he listens to this podcast, so he's going to know exactly, he's going to know that I'm at-ing him. Um, he eats Domino's pizzas all the time, he eats like a, a real s- you know, processed food diet, but then says to me it's all about calorie counting. Now, with all due respect, friend, um, he's never (laughs) managed to... I shouldn't say (laughs) , but, um, but it's not necessarily worked for him in terms of the goal that he set himself.So when I was reading about your view on calorie counting in your book, Spoon-Fed, it was... I screenshotted it this morning and sent it to him, and I sent, I said, "You are a bullshitter." (laughs) That's what I said in the message, and we had a good laugh about it this morning. But what is your view on calorie counting and this idea that we can... you know, weight loss or being healthy is just about having a calorie deficit?

   3. TSTim Spector18:33

      It's complete nonsense.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett18:34

      Ah, thank you. I will clip that and send it to him.

   5. TSTim Spector18:37

      There's never been any long-term study showing that calorie counting is an effective way to lose weight and maintain weight loss after, you know, the first few weeks. So yes, very strict calorie counting, if you deprive yourself for a few weeks, you will lose some weight. But even if you're successful, your body's, uh, evolutionary mechanisms will make you hungrier and hungrier every week you go by where you're depriving yourself of energy. Your body will go into a sort of shutdown mode, your metabolism slows down, so you're not expending those calories, and inevitably, I'd say more than 95% of people will go back to their baseline, and many go above it. They sort of rebound back if they're doing this, this style of, uh, calorie restriction. Now, calorie counting's a part of that. So people try and say, "Okay, I'm not going on, I'm not going on a dramatic diet, but I'm going to just try and reduce by 10% my calories in a day," which in the old theory was supposed to make you lose weight. Well, it's virtually impossible, even professionals, to count calories. And because, uh, they're not very accurate for a start, everything on the packet, you have to weigh everything, and in restaurants now where you're supposed to have these calorie counts, they're plus or minus about 30% because portion size makes such a huge difference to it that it's... And it's been shown in the US to be a worthless exercise anyway. So you can't count them going in, you can't really count your metabolism going out either. We're all incredibly different. You know, your friend's probably been told, "2,500 calories is what he's allowed."

   6. SBSteven Bartlett20:25

      Hmm.

   7. TSTim Spector20:26

      Well, that's an average. Uh, but it doesn't mean it relates to him. My average is much lower, um, when I tested it. So everyone is an individual, and this is another thing we need to move away from this one-size-fits-all guidelines. But I think more importantly is that the whole calorie counting assumption means that it doesn't matter what form that calorie is, it has the same effect on your body. Therefore whether you're cutting out fat calories or carb calories or, you know, low-calorie sodas or whatever it is, it's, it's going to be fine. But we now know that's not true. Um, th- and there's several science experiments which now absolutely nail that. One was, um, by, in America where they gave people identical meals, um, for two weeks in a sort of enclosed semi-prison, and one was homemade and one was ult- ultra-processed, both identical calories, macros the same. The group with the ultra-processed foods overate by about 200 calories every day. They kept coming back to the buffet for more, okay? So yes, the same calories, but the effect on the body meant they were hungrier.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett21:42

      Why is that?

   9. TSTim Spector21:43

      We don't know for sure. It could be that those chemicals in the ultra-processed foods affect the gut microbes and they then send signals to the brain saying, "Eat more. This isn't a natural... you know, this is a really weird chemical and it's doing something weird to me. I'm producing something weird in exchange." It could be they get absorbed much quicker, so you get a big sugar rush and, you know, the nutrients get in to your body in a way faster than they should do in nature, and so your brain doesn't have time to say, "I'm full." It normally takes 20 minutes or so to, to get that fullness. Um, or, you know, it, i- so the... it could be the matrix of the food, it could be the chemicals in the food. It could be its effect on the gut microbes. Um, but it also could be things like your sugar spikes. So in the ZOE Predict studies where basically we've given now 50,000 people, um, in the US and the UK the same foods at the same time, same time of day, everyone's got these muffins, we show that people, um, one in four people who have these muffins and are wearing a... we wear glucose monitors which tells you for two weeks every- what's happening to your glucose, one in four people get a real sugar dip three hours later. So this is where you g- you rise in sugar, which is normal, and then as it comes down, it goes below baseline, but only in one in four people. And when that happens, those people end up overeating their next meal and during the day, they feel more tired and more hungry. That's this, the sort of 11 o'clock slump, if you like, if you've had a carby breakfast. Some people feel that, others don't. And what's really interesting is that, so one in four people eating an identical muffin of identical calories will then overeat by this, you know, another 10% that day. So you can see how that just blows the calorie-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett23:43

       Hmm.

   11. TSTim Spector23:43

       ... um, idea out, that calories in equals calories out, everything's the same. And, and the, and the third thing is that ultra-processed food says it has the calories that's equal to the whole foods, but often they don't account for the fact that it's ground up, it's highly refined, and so if you take like almonds or something like this, they use, might use ground almonds, and you compare ground almonds to whole almonds, there's perhaps 30% less available calories in the whole almonds than there is in the other ones. So the whole thing is a complete nonsense, and it's there-... because the food industry wants you to focus on the calorie, the fat content, sugar, so you don't have to think about the quality of the food. And it's something that they can control very easily, get their profits higher, keep adding stuff to the product that's synthetic, when we know that a lot of the things they're adding are harmful for our gut microbes. So th- the artificial sweeteners are harmful, the, the glues they s- stick the foods together, the emulsifiers, some people react quite a lot to those and they cause problems. So, the whole thing is like this giant camouflage, and that's, that's really one thing I'm, you know, it might be my number one bugbear is to get people to see the light, stop obsessing about calories, and start thinking about food much more as quality and what it does to your body.

6. 25:17 – 33:19

   Definition of quality food

   1. TSTim Spector25:18

   2. SBSteven Bartlett25:18

      (laughs) Quality food. What is quality food, in your definition of the phrase?

   3. TSTim Spector25:23

      It's the opposite of ultra-processed food, which is whole food which is made with, um, from the original ingredients of plants, mainly plant-based but, um, it's not exclusively, that, um, contains all the nutrients that those, those plants produce without it being stripped away or, uh, boiled up or, uh, highly pressurized, deformed, and so they have to add in back those nutrients. So, you know, it's things in their pure form, so it's, it's nuts, it's seeds, it's, it's grains that haven't been ground up super finely, it's all the amazing plants and fruits and vegetables that we've got. They, they're healthy foods, but, you know, it's, it's not straightforward, "Yes, I've got this list of 10 superfoods." It's, it's understanding that many foods that, uh, you know, are healthy for us, most of them are in their, in their original form. Berries, nuts, um, virtually every vegetable is healthy for us if it's in that original form. It's only because we've, we had to learn to preserve things, we had to do trickery to make, you know, margarines and things that, with chemistry that we've moved away from that. But, you know, going back, you know, olive oil, for example, is, is a great example of something that's been vilified often because it has lots of fats in it and, you know, certainly, I was told, "Oh, the, oh, the Mediterranean, they have, they have olive oil in everything, it's horrible, it's all fatty." Turns out that's, that's a perf- you know, it comes from the olive. The good stuff, extra virgin olive oil, has very little done to it, and that is a, a good healthy quality food. But, it can be refined, you can take that and you can keep refining it. Um, you can take corn on the cob as an example, and then, you, you know, and then you've got, I don't know, uh, tortilla chips or something down the other end is, which bears, or cornflakes which bears no resemblance to the original, and they're all versions on a spectrum.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett27:38

      God, it's so confusing, you know. Because, what you've said to me is, you know, based on research and studies, but then when I go to a supermarket, labeling, even, I was just thinking then cornflakes, I think I grew up thinking cornflakes were healthy because it says corn in the title. You know what I mean? And it's, and when you're trying to navigate... I was just thinking, if I'm going down an aisle now hearing what you've just said, that, that quality food is food that is not ultra-processed and kind of resembles its original form, when you walk down the aisle in the supermarket, everything is trying to pretend that it's good. So how do I know what is good? I mean, I can go to the vegetable aisle and I can say, "Okay, that looks like a cabbage, it looks like no one's messed with that. There's been no study done on that to, it hasn't been through a laboratory." But how do I, like, if I'm in an aisle tomorrow, how do I know what food is good and what is not?

   5. TSTim Spector28:23

      Well, you've said the first thing, if it's not in a package, um, you're, you're pretty sure it's good.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett28:27

      Okay.

   7. TSTim Spector28:27

      Okay. So, um, uh, if it's concealed in some package that's got, you know, happy children and, and s- signals of vitamins in it, that should be a, a warning sign. Uh, you know, the more they have to advertise the food and say what its additives are and everything, the more you should be wary about it. The number of ingredients is another pretty good sign, so once you get over 10, uh, particularly if there's lots you've never heard of or you wouldn't find in your kitchen, you should also be wary that that is ultra-processed food. Anything that says low calorie, that says, means they've had to add in lots of artificial sweeteners or protein extracts or something else, is also a big, uh, danger sign. Uh, low in fat means they've replaced the natural fat with something else that's cheaper, and these are all warning signs, you know. Uh, and, you know, you take breakfast cereals, and I used to, I used to eat lots of breakfast cereals, I was brought up on them, highly sugary stuff, and then I thought I was being healthy when I moved to mueslis and, um-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett29:36

      Same.

   9. TSTim Spector29:36

      ... posher, posher stuff. Uh, but actually when you still, you know, that appearance of healthiness, it's still got lots of additives in it, it's still got lots of sugar in it, it's just... And those cereal packets have added vitamins in it, but they're often in a very poor form. Uh, I did an experiment once where I, um, took some cornflakes or Special K, I can't remember, that said it had added iron, and if you mix it up, you can put a magnet on it, you can get off the iron filings. They're so cheap that, um, they're just added to tick a box saying it has iron but they don't get into your body or do anything. So, anything that's got these things added with this in it, low in this, is a sign that-... they're obscuring the quality of the product. So, it's, you know, uh, but there's a lot of brainw- you know, we've had, been brainwashed for years and decades in this. And, uh, you know, I was as well. As a doctor, you know, I should know better, and yet I've completely changed my sev- t- two of my meals completely. So, I've gone from having muesli with low-fat milk and an orange juice and, uh, a cup of tea, 'cause I, I did, you know, when I started doing these tests for ZOE, I found out that gave me a massive sugar spike and it was a terrible way to start the day. And I got these, you know, dips at 11 o'clock. To a high, full-fat yogurt, nuts, seeds, a few berries, and I never have orange juice. That's on my, that's a really unhealthy drink for everybody. And I have a, lots of black coffee, which I now know is good for me. So, that's totally different. I changed my lunch for at least 10, 15 years, um, when I got a, in the hos- I was having a hospital lunch, which used to be in the canteen, then it was Marks and Spencers. Got a healthy-looking sandwich with brown bread, sweet corn, and tuna, and a smoothie in a little bottle. And that gave me a massive sugar spike, and I wouldn't have known that. A- and I was told that should've been a healthy thing to eat. So, you know, there's- there's general rules, but also, there are specific rules. And this whole idea of indivi- individuality is coming in. So, it could be that you could- you might be fine on that. Don't know. Um, I was very annoyed 'cause when I started, we were starting doing this testing for ZOE, I had all these spare kits and I gave my wife one as well. And we sit down, and she's, um, French-Belgian and loves croissants. And so, we'd have a croissant each. Mine would shoot up. She had no change at all in her- her- her sugar-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett32:29

       Ugh.

   11. TSTim Spector32:29

       ... which was really annoying.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett32:30

       Yeah.

   13. TSTim Spector32:31

       (laughs) So, but it- it also brings- brings home the fact that, you know, it- it, everyone loves simplistic rules, but you can only get so far with them. You have to start experimenting yourself and see what works for you, and not just take everything for granted. And that's really the, that's the whole essence of- of really, you know, setting up this personalized nutrition research, and ZOE, and everything else. But, uh, on top of this general advice about changing our idea of food, I think, 'cause I think they do go hand in hand, that if you realize there are these individual differences, you realize it's not as simple as you've been told. It's not that fats are evil. It's not that calories are bad. You know, it's- i- it's much more nuanced.

7. 33:19 – 40:13

   Intermittent fasting

   1. SBSteven Bartlett33:19

      You mentioned breakfast there. I heard that you do some intermittent fasting. Intermittent fasting. I think I pronounced that correctly.

   2. TSTim Spector33:26

      Intermittent fasting.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett33:27

      Yes, we'll just, uh-

   4. TSTim Spector33:28

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett33:28

      ... use AI to swap that-

   6. TSTim Spector33:30

      If.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett33:30

      ... from my voice. What- what- what is-

   8. TSTim Spector33:32

      AI.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett33:32

      ... intermittent... Oh, let's just call it fasting-

   10. TSTim Spector33:34

       (laughs)

   11. SBSteven Bartlett33:34

       ... okay? Just for people at home that can't say it. Um, fasting has become a really popular thing over the last three or four years. A lot of my friends talk about it. Again, it's- it's almost feels like it's going into fad territory again. But what is the, what are the facts around fasting intermittently? (laughs)

   12. TSTim Spector33:53

       Okay, it's, I guess it's been quite a hot topic for about 10 years now.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett33:57

       Mm-hmm.

   14. TSTim Spector33:58

       But it's, intermittent fasting is a umbrella term for all kinds of different fasting. And you might remember the 5:2 style of intermittent fasting was quite big about 10 years ago. And there were also these extended fasts often used in America. People were doing two or three-day, uh, fasts and detoxifying-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett34:19

       Oh, gosh.

   16. TSTim Spector34:20

       ... uh-

   17. SBSteven Bartlett34:20

       Yeah.

   18. TSTim Spector34:20

       ... that sort of stuff. So, you've got to realize, you have to specify what time, what- what we're talking about. But I think the most interesting type of fasting now is what's called time-restricted eating.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett34:31

       Time-restricted eating. I can say that.

   20. TSTim Spector34:33

       T-R-E.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett34:34

       Mm-hmm.

   22. TSTim Spector34:34

       Okay? So, the idea is you don't change what you eat. You just change how you eat, and you change your eating window. So, most people in- in the UK and US, they'll be eating for 14 or f- 16 hours a day.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett34:50

       That's me.

   24. TSTim Spector34:51

       Right? Lots of snacks and extending late night. And what time-restricted eating is, we're trying to reduce that to something like 10 hours on average. Okay? It varies. There are some more extreme ones, some milder ones, but that seems to be about the sweet spot that most people can manage. Ten hours, which means, uh, you- you start eating at 11:00 and you finish at 9:00, for example. Or you might want to go from 8:00 in the morning until 6:00 at night, or 7:00. I can't do my maths. Um, now, there's actually science behind this now. So, there's plenty of studies showing that not only in mice and rats this helps their me- their metabolism, their energy management, but there's some evidence it helps with weight loss to s- a small extent. But it's, it- i- improves your inflammation levels and a lot of people report energy and mood improvements. We've just done a big study with the- the ZOE Health study, which is the- the free app where we had 130,000 people sign up to do this trial, if you like, where they would do this for two weeks. And amazingly, most people managed it. And we did see improvements in mood and energy, um, just in that two-week period. And actually, hunger went down, weirdly. But a lot of this we've found is p- people were actually snacking less. So, s- they weren't, we won't tell them to do less, you just, you can do whatever you like in that time. But people were just paying more attention and not grabbing something to eat just before they went to bed. Now, the science behind it is really interesting because your body needs time to recover, so your cells-... we're programmed on the circadian rhythm that is very much in, in line with the sun from, you know, when we were all in East Africa and it was, um, everything was quite programmed so that our body is in this state of work during the, the day, we eat, do all our stuff, and then at night, it recovers. As the stress hormones go down and new repair stuff comes out, so it cleans up all muck in our cells. But we now know that, uh, it's the same happening in our guts. So if you rest your gut for, uh, 14 hours, you give time for all the other microbes to come out and act as a repair team, like a cleaning force that hoover up all the mess you've left behind, they clean up nicely your gut wall and so it's not leaky, get rid of inflammation and this change, giving them this break, really seems to have these great benefits. So I'm, I was a real skeptic about, about this and I, I did lots of fasting and things for, experimenting for the books. But it, I think the last two years, I've really been convinced that this is something that, that does work and is right for some people. But, importantly, it's not right for everybody and, uh, there is an individuality. You may be a snacker that finds it very hard to go long periods of time without eating, okay? I do know, we've got several people at ZOE who say, "Oh, this is terrible," you know, it's all... But for me, you know, I suddenly realize when I wake up in the morning, I'm not starving. It's not the first thing that I, I think in my head and, you know, it's very easy to wait till 11 o'clock to have something to eat, and it's not a big deprivation that's something you could carry on the whole of your life, which I think is what we're, we're, we're into here. So, I think there's a lot to be said for this, but I think people need to personalize it. Again, uh, you know, people love a single, single black and white solution to all their problems, but I'd say to everyone, try it. You may want to s- you know, do, do a sort of American style eating really early and finishing early. Um, you might be that kind of person who's a sort of morning person.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett38:39

       Mm-hmm.

   26. TSTim Spector38:40

       Or you might be someone that prefers the social life of eating in the evening and, um, skipping the morning.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett38:47

       It's gonna be qu- it's gonna be, take quite a lot of discipline for me to stop having chocolate at 2:00 AM, so could you just summarize again? Time-restricted eating, the, the, the key benefits of it are my m- microbiome will be healthier, gives my microbiome more time to clean up, which will have an impact potentially on weight loss and overall energy levels, et cetera, et cetera.

   28. TSTim Spector39:07

       Mood. Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett39:07

       Mood, okay, cool. That's enough for me. I think that's a convincing enough reason. And I imagine there's also an impact on sleep there, 'cause, you know, me having chocolate at 2:00 AM is probably not going to give, um, help me have quality sleep at night.

   30. TSTim Spector39:21

       Absolutely, yes. No, I think there is a link. Um, we're studying that. We don't have any results from, uh, from th- that trial, but we are logging, uh, sleep quality as well. Uh, but per- personally, I fi- I've, when I've started to do it, I do sleep better. I did start to get some reflux as well, so a lot of people suffer from, um, heartburn.
8. 40:13 – 44:18

   The myth around vitamins

   1. TSTim Spector40:14

   2. SBSteven Bartlett40:14

      What about vitamins? You know, I've, I've got all these vitamins by my bedside. Not by my bedside, by my kit- by my bathroom sink in my bedroom 'cause, you know, I went, I went into some market and the lady there told me that all these vitamins were important and then I don't know, I might've seen an ad on Facebook or something and I ended up buying more vitamins. And now I've g- I'm like a collector of vitamins.

   3. TSTim Spector40:35

      You're not alone. I think 50% of the British population have a regular vitamin or supplement every day, and it's massive industry.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett40:44

      I read chapter five of your book.

   5. TSTim Spector40:46

      So I'm a bit rude about vitamins in there.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett40:48

      Please. (laughs) Please be.

   7. TSTim Spector40:50

      (laughs) So, uh-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett40:50

      Thank you.

   9. TSTim Spector40:50

      ... I know, I, and I, it's the thing that upsets people most. Um, people say, "Oh, I don't, uh, I believe everything else you say, but I don't believe your chapter on, on vitamins." And I th- a- again, it's, it's a bit like a religion, you know, popping a pill and, uh, hoping that it's doing some good. All the evidence shows that when you do a randomized controlled trial, these vitamins don't work unless you've got some really weird disease or deficiency, or for some reason you can't eat a normal diet. But it's a last resort for people who have terrible diets. If you have a, a decent, uh, varied diet with plenty of plants in it, uh, you don't need vitamins at all. And I used to take them, and I don't take any now, except for the occasional B12 because I, um, I, I've always been low in B12 and I have hardly any meat. But apart from B12, all the evidence points to these things being a complete waste of money.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett41:54

       You're telling me all those vitamins I've swallowed over the last 10 years have been a, the result of me being duped by the vitamin industry, and have no material impact on my health?

   11. TSTim Spector42:06

       Yes. Or they might've had some harmful effects, like people taking calcium and things like this, uh, have shown if you take regular calcium tablets, more likely to get heart disease.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett42:15

       You're joking, I've literally got a tub of calcium tablets by my, by my kitchen sink as we speak.

   13. TSTim Spector42:21

       Yeah, well, there's calcium in nearly every plant and things that we a- we normally break down, absorb in small amounts regularly. You take something like, uh, a calcium supplement, you'd, might be taking half a gram of it-Our body isn't designed to break down that huge slab of chemical, and so it doesn't get distributed well. And studies show that it gets deposited in your arteries, and, and can harden them up. So, there's n- there's no (laughs) evidence that calcium helps people, doesn't help broken bones, it doesn't help osteoporosis. All the things that we were told it did do, so all the elements was out there, and you've got all these companies pushing it. So many of these things can be counterproductive. But my main worry about them is if people think they can t- pop a pill, they don't have to think about proper food.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett43:14

       Yeah.

   15. TSTim Spector43:15

       And therefore, everything c- comes in a bottle or a pill, they can go, you know, just have a junk food diet and be healthy. And that's so wrong, because, um, diet, I think, is the most, as I said, the most important food choice we make for our health. And to take stuff that doesn't work, that could be counterproductive and sometimes harmful, is, is a daft delusion.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett43:39

       I have been under a daft delusion. I've got so many supplements upstairs.

   17. TSTim Spector43:43

       Well, they could have a placebo effect. You might feel better because you're taking them, you know? You're saying-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett43:47

       I feel like a healthy person because I take them. I don't know whether I am a healthy person-

   19. TSTim Spector43:50

       (laughs)

   20. SBSteven Bartlett43:50

       ... but I feel like one when I do it, I do it... And it's really uncomfortable, 'cause I'm taking, sometimes I'm taking, like, eight different pills, like calcium and potassium and whatever else, -ium. And when I'm doing it, even though it's hard to swallow them and it tastes rancid, I feel like I'm doing future Steve a favor.

   21. TSTim Spector44:06

       Yeah. Well, there you go.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett44:08

       But clearly, I haven't been.

   23. TSTim Spector44:08

       Well, take... Get someone to make you some dummy ones so there's got nothing harmful in it, and you can-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett44:12

       (laughs) Okay.

   25. TSTim Spector44:12

       ... still feel good. A lot cheaper.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett44:14

       I'll, I'll give that a shot.

   27. TSTim Spector44:16

       (laughs)

   28. SBSteven Bartlett44:16

       Um, what about

9. 44:18 – 52:00

   The Keto diet

   1. SBSteven Bartlett44:18

      sugar? So I, I was keto for the last, roughly the last two months. I tried a, um, the diet because I, I heard a lot of good things about the keto- ketogenic diet as it relates to any inflammation. And I have to be honest, I lost about a stone in weight fairly quickly. First time I've really seen a huge dip in my weight. But also, not just that, my, the gut issues that I'd had seemed to, to, to go. So I, I'd almost lived for the last couple of years, specifically, like, after the age of 25 for some reason. Suddenly, foods that I thought had gluten in them, like white breads and pa- pastas, and even, like, soy sauce and things like that, were making me live in this permanent state of, like, being bloated. And I'd go to the toilet, and I didn't feel great, and it was kind of this pain throughout the day a couple of hours after eating one of those foods. And then I tried the ketogenic diet, so I cut out pretty much all of those things. Like, I didn't have any bread, most of the sort of processed bad carb... Well, I don't even know what I'm talking about here, so correct me. But I cut out what I thought were the bad carbs that were having a bad reaction on me, and then I cut out s- a lot of sugar, like refined sugars, basically cut it completely out. And I ate meat, vegetables, um, berries, and things like that. Felt fantastic. Lost a stone in weight. Very, very, very lean. Body fat dropped completely. Slept well, high energy. Um, what's your view on the ketogenic diet?

   2. TSTim Spector45:39

      Well, your story is, I mean, you can take two ways. One, you could say you really improved your diet 'cause you had a... It sounds like you had a pretty shitty diet before that, right? So-

   3. SBSteven Bartlett45:45

      Well, yeah. (laughs)

   4. TSTim Spector45:46

      Um, um, (laughs) so you know what I mean? So anything could've been a- an improvement if someone says, "If you're eating real foods," right? So-

   5. SBSteven Bartlett45:53

      Yeah.

   6. TSTim Spector45:53

      ... it sounds like the keto, you weren't having keto out of a bottle or a plastic-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett45:57

      No, no, no, no. I was having meals.

   8. TSTim Spector45:58

      Yeah, proper-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett45:58

      I had someone prepare them for me. Yeah.

   10. TSTim Spector46:00

       Proper, proper home-cooked meals-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett46:02

       Yeah.

   12. TSTim Spector46:02

       ... rather than takeaways and-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett46:03

       Exactly.

   14. TSTim Spector46:04

       ... you know, this sort of stuff. So you're making the shift from perhaps, you know, the average UK diet, which is high in refined carbs, which is, you know, probably had a fair bit of ultra-processed foods in there as well, to this other diet. So I would expect you to feel better. Um, to be a keto diet, you've got to get to se- about 70%, um, fat, right? Which-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett46:27

       Yeah.

   16. TSTim Spector46:28

       ... which is really, really hard for anyone to, to sustain. It's virtually impossible.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett46:33

       That's why I said for the last two months I'm no longer ket- (laughs) on the keto diet.

   18. TSTim Spector46:37

       So, you know, you've, you've gone, you've, so, so m- you have probably done a mild keto diet-

   19. SBSteven Bartlett46:43

       Right.

   20. TSTim Spector46:44

       ... that didn't put you into ketosis-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett46:46

       Right.

   22. TSTim Spector46:46

       ... but got you off these high refined carbs.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett46:48

       Yeah.

   24. TSTim Spector46:49

       So, but going back to the basic question, um, keto diets do seem to work for people with diabetes, who are overweight, as a way of getting them off their medications and sort of kickstarting them into a, a better health pattern. And there are some people I think it, it can work for. Um, I think for, as a sustainable diet, I don't think it makes any sense. I don't think many people can still be on it a year later if it's a true ketogenic diet.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett47:19

       Mm-hmm.

   26. TSTim Spector47:19

       Um, because no study's really shown that people can sustain eating that level of fat and, and protein and virtually, uh, no carbs.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett47:28

       That's all I ate-

   28. TSTim Spector47:30

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett47:30

       ... for about eight weeks.

   30. TSTim Spector47:31

       Yeah, but you were eating a lot, you were eating plants as well.
10. 52:00 – 57:42

    Coffee

    1. SBSteven Bartlett52:00

       but-

    2. TSTim Spector52:00

       Mm. So, dark chocolate's a good example. Coffee, we already mentioned, and if, do you like coffee?

    3. SBSteven Bartlett52:05

       I do. Uh, well, I don't... For me, coffee's more of a utility. I use it before I have these conversations so I don't fall asleep because I'm, I'm very, you know, I've never been good at-

    4. TSTim Spector52:14

       You might have a boring guest and you think to yourself... (laughs)

    5. SBSteven Bartlett52:15

       Well, sometimes, but (laughs) -

    6. TSTim Spector52:16

       (laughs)

    7. SBSteven Bartlett52:16

       ... it's more so just to try and keep my mind sharp and to keep focused. But, um, I- I read chapter 13 of your book about coffee, and I've always been a bit of a coffee skeptic because I do- tend to have a belief that everything in life comes with a cost. And no one I've sat here with has ever been able to tell me the cost of an artificial boost in my focus, attention, energy. I feel like nothing's for free in life, you know? So, what is the cost of coffee?

    8. TSTim Spector52:41

       Well, I think there's a variability. Some people, there is a big cost. They get, uh, the shakes. They, uh, can't sleep, and it has other neurotoxic effects if you have too much. So, I think it's all about dose, and this is, it- it is a drug that if you get the dose right is very beneficial for you. If you get it wrong or you've got some genetic problem, you can't process it right, um, it- it- it's a real, it's- it's a problem. But some of the benefits I was talking about, um, are also there in, uh, decaffeinated coffee. So, it also has these, 'cause again, this is a great example of how we always think of coffee as caffeine, right?

    9. SBSteven Bartlett53:24

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    10. TSTim Spector53:25

        And yet, if you do these epidemiology studies, you know, these big population ones, people who are having regular decaf coffee also have similar heart benefits. So, it's other things in this fermented bean that are helping us, and I think this is just, you know, it's a great lesson in moving away from our reductionism. We always like to think of, you know, one food as one vitamin or one chemical, and that's an easy way to think about it. We can't comprehend they've got 1,000 different-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett53:55

        (laughs)

    12. TSTim Spector53:55

        ... ingredients. So, decaf coffee, but yeah. Or you've got green tea, um, is, is also pretty good. Um, you know, there- there's many other fermented foods, but, um, polyphenols are really good and important to realize in the, in the book Food for Life, I go into exactly that. It's a practical guide to when you go into the supermarket, and you go to the aisle, you say, "Gosh, I'm in the vegetable aisle. Do I get my usual iceberg lettuce that 90% of us do, uh, 'cause it lasts for two weeks or, you know, longer than our prime ministers?"

    13. SBSteven Bartlett54:29

        (laughs)

    14. TSTim Spector54:30

        Or do we, uh, go for a slightly more expensive loose leaf rosololo with purple leaves that, uh, has 1,000 times more polyphenols? And-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett54:42

        So, you really shop on color?

    16. TSTim Spector54:44

        Yes. Now, I do. I had no idea about this until doing it. But- but also, the fact that it's loose-leaved means that it- those- those plants have had to survive in more difficult conditions to fight off predators and wind and everything else, so they're tougher. That's why herbs and spices are also tough, 'cause they're the growing tips of the plant. That's where you get all the good bits. And so, it- it's a rethinking, all this idea about what's good about food in the- when you start thinking about your gut and, you know, the sugars that it releases, et cetera. So, um, for you, yeah, I mean if y- I think as a general rule, if everybody ate to keep their gut microbes happy, they'd be on a- a- a pretty healthy diet, uh, even before you get into personalization.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett55:34

        Now, chapter 13 of your book, we talked about coffee there, is called Coffee Can Save Your Life. You mean that quite literally, don't you?

    18. TSTim Spector55:44

        Yes. Um, as an epidemiologist, if you drink three cups of coffee a day, you are less likely to die 10 years later.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett55:53

        Jesus Christ. But there's also a link between, um, coffee, depression, and suicide, right?

    20. TSTim Spector55:59

        Well, there are lots of links.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett56:01

        'Cause I- I was reading that in studies, people were less suicidal if they'd been drinking coffee.

    22. TSTim Spector56:06

        Um, I think that- I'm sure there is a study on that. In general, what I- what I do when I look at these is I don't take any one study on its own. I will try to get- uh, look at all the literature and see how many studies there are on that, and is there a- a confirmatory one that would make it real or not? So, I've tried not to over claim.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett56:31

        Yeah.

    24. TSTim Spector56:32

        'Cause if you look at, you know, e- you look at the Daily Mail or, you know, the- the general press in the- in the UK, they will pick up on any one story and say, "Coffee gives you cancer. Coffee does this. Coffee gives you dementia. Next, you-" you know, it saves your life, it does this. So, you can switch. But what I think people need to do is, you know, especially after COVID, is be much more sort of selective about how they see a study, how... It's epidemiology, you know, that it has to have confirmatory data.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett57:01

        Mm-hmm.

    26. TSTim Spector57:01

        Um, so I think, yeah, coffee, we know it improves sports performance by one percent, right? So for most people, that doesn't really matter, right? You know, one percent, am I gonna run faster on my treadmill at the gym by one percent? No, but it- it does give you a little bit of focus and, uh, for most people, it- it's- it, you know, it's a good drug that's found in food. And I like coffee because also it helps... It's allowed in a fast. So, time-restricted eating, you're allowed black coffee and black tea, and it, um... 'Cause it doesn't cause a sugar spike or anything else, but it's- you have to cut out the sugar.

11. 57:42 – 59:12

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    1. SBSteven Bartlett57:42

       Quick one from our longest-standing sponsor, Huel. I- I can't tell you over the last, I'd say over the last, really it's been about two and a half years, it was really, um, post-pandemic, how much my health has become such a huge priority in my life. Huel has been probably the most impo- important partner in my health journey, because I've been in the boardrooms, I've been to their offices tens and tens and tens and tens of times. I've seen how they make their decisions on nutrition. And that's why it's su- such a wonderful thing to be able to talk to this audience about a brand and a product that is so unbelievably linked to my values and the- and the- the place I am in my life of valuing the gym, exercise, movement, my mind, my breathing, and all of those things, and most importantly, my nutrition. That is the role Huel- Huel plays. And so, every time I get to read these ads out, I do it with such passion because I really, really believe every word I'm saying, and I absolutely love the brand. So, if you haven't already tried Huel and you've been resistant to my- my pestering, then give it a go and let me know how you get on. Quick one. Intel are one of our podcast sponsors, and I wanna talk to you for a second about their Built for Business vPro platform. In today's working world, the office is pretty much anywhere, and Intel vPro means you can remotely manage, repair, and protect devices across your entire organization, no matter how large or small, giving me and my team peace of mind to work wherever we choose to. For my IT team, whether on premise or via cloud, behind the corporate firewall or not, Intel's vPro comprehensive manageability has us covered. This is something that is so important to me. I- uh, you know, I'm a huge

12. 59:12 – 1:02:22

    Gluten intolerance

    1. SBSteven Bartlett59:12

       believer in employee flexibility and trust, so having features like this are super helpful. So, to find out more, search intel.co.uk/vpro, and let me know how you get on. I feel like more and more people are becoming gluten-intolerant. I consider myself one of them. I am a self-diagnosed gluten-intolerant. I read chapter 16 of your book, and you think most of that is made up (laughs) .

    2. TSTim Spector59:36

       Yes. Um, most people who think they're gluten intolerant aren't when you test them. Okay? So that's- that's the fact. It doesn't mean that everyone's making it up. There- some of those will be real. But I think gluten got this bad rap, um, about 10 years ago, and there's- we know that, yes, one percent of the population really do have a gluten problem. It's called celiac disease, and they'll be vomiting and have terrible diarrhea with the smallest bit of gluten. Then there's this whole other group of people that believe they have gluten intolerance, of which studies show about three-quarters when they're tested with gluten are fine, in a blind- blinded way, if someone slipped you a- a biscuit or something, uh, you know, um, or pasta is often the- the way to trick people. And I think many people, uh, of- have probably a more general irritable bowel syndrome that- that are blaming gluten because it's one- they're taking that one protein that they know about from foods that have thousands of them and saying, "This is the problem." Again, this reductionism, and i- then they cut all- everything out, but they might be cutting out things that were-...like, the sandwich, for example, that was causing me glucose spikes. So they might feel better when they cut that out, and they then say, "Okay, I've cut out bread, therefore, um, I'm not getting sugar spikes and tiredness. That must have been the gluten." When actually it was nothing to do with that, it's just, um, cheap bread, uh, that has nothing to do with it. So, I think often people are taking gluten as an excuse, and sometimes they do feel better when they cut out all those foods because they're eating less processed foods as a result of it. Not always-

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:28

       Mm-hmm.

    4. TSTim Spector1:01:29

       ...but it's something else in the bread or the pasta that, that they were eating too much, or they were, um, eating it too fast, or these things that I think are important. So, I would urge everyone to, you know, look again at whether it is gluten or it is something else about their food habits before that was bad and reevaluate it. And, you know, build up your plant diversity and your gut microbes instead, 'cause the worry is that all these people on- on gluten, most of them have a re- rather restrictive diet, they get very worried about new foods, and that's like the worst scenario 'cause you end up on a vicious circle where you- you get more and more nervous, so you have a smaller and smaller group of foods you're happy with-

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:14

       Yeah.

    6. TSTim Spector1:02:14

       ...your microbes get, um, diminished, and you have much less flexibility to deal with any new food that hits you.

13. 1:02:22 – 1:07:21

    Exercise

    1. TSTim Spector1:02:22

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:22

       One of the, um... Well, we've got a fitness group amongst some of my friends. There's about ten of us in it. And, um, we've been tracking how often we work out and how frequent we work out and the workouts that we do. And one of the things that I have to say is pretty much no one in the group has lost any weight. We've been doing this for a year. And, uh, that kind of bucks what you would thi- So, the only time that I lost weight was actually when I went on the keto- keto diet. I went from 14 stone 8 to 13 stone 8 in roughly- in several weeks. But exercise, and exercising for almost religiously for the last two and a half years, doesn't really seem to impact my weight at all in a, you know, in the way that the fitness experts might tell me on Instagram. What's your stance on h- the role that exercise play- plays in weight loss?

    3. TSTim Spector1:03:05

       It has very little role in weight loss. All the studies, se- long-term studies show, uh, it doesn't help, uh, weight loss, and it's been grossly exaggerated as an easy fix for our obesity problem.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:20

       Exercise doesn't help weight loss?

    5. TSTim Spector1:03:21

       No. All the studies show that. The only caveat to that is if you have changed your diet, improved your diet, and you've lost some weight, uh, maintaining some exercise does help prevent it going back up again. But as... On its own, if you don't change your diet, it's of no use. And that's well-known now by all the obesity experts and all the studies.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:47

       Does sugar make us fat? Is that the culprit?

    7. TSTim Spector1:03:51

       Um-

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:51

       Is that one of the main things that's contributing to...

    9. TSTim Spector1:03:54

       No. Again, that's, that's reductionism, you know-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:03:56

        Okay.

    11. TSTim Spector1:03:58

        ...we, the... But the reason, uh, the reason exercise doesn't work is, it's important to realize this, is because we all know this, that, you know, you go for a walk, you build up hunger before a meal. That's what your parents told you, you know? And everything about exercise is, after it, your body slows down, your me- your metabolism slows down, and it tries to regain the energy that you've lost. That's just wh- our evo- evolution. And so, that's why it's a... You're not gonna... It's great for your health. I'm- I, you know, I exercise. Fantastic for your mood. Um, it's great for your heart, anti-cancer, all kinds of things. We should all do it, but absolutely not if your goal is weight loss. You have to do something about changing your diet. And I think that's, that's the big m- uh, a huge myth, particularly perpetuated by gyms, and, uh, fitness apps, and everything else. Uh, and it is, it is complete nonsense.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:55

        I read that you, um, when you looked at studies over 30 years, and you looked at how many studies had been done on the relationship of exercise and weight versus things like sugar and weight, there was 12 more- 12 times more studies done on the relationship of exercise and weight versus sugar and weight. And why, why is that? Why is there less research done on the latter?

    13. TSTim Spector1:05:19

        Um, I think that's the influence of governments, and the food companies, and the drink companies. So, uh, a lot of the exercise research done in the last 20 years was sponsored by, uh, large corporations who wanted to make this link between, uh, exercise and weight loss so that they could continue to sell sugary, ultra-processed foods and drinks, and just say it's, you know, childhood obesity is because we've, we don't have playgrounds, and we don't, uh, encourage this. And that's why the Cokes and the Pepsis are always there at the Olympic, uh, sponsoring Olympic events and associating themselves with sport. And they gave hundreds of millions to various physiology departments, sports departments, nutrition departments, to do research in this area. Basically, it was really hard to get anyone to do research into how sugary drinks make you, uh, gain weight or cause problems, because they, the amount of money for nutrition has been abysmally poor, you know, in- from, from governments. And that's why, you know, we... The only, the first ever study of ultra-processed food in a controlled trial was only about three years ago, and it's been around for, you know, 30, 40 years. So, such is the power of that lobby, that it, it doesn't necessarily distort the research in a sort of, you know, evil way, but they point it to make sure that the researchers are, are working in an area that they want, uh-... people to work in, and distracting them, keeping them away from talking about sugars or even artificial sweeteners, which, in my view, are nearly as bad, because they're sort of, you know, hidden, um, a- and deflecting us from the idea that, yes, giving kids sugary drinks or even artificial sweet drinks is going to be bad for them and, and cause obesity.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:20

        Wait, so

14. 1:07:21 – 1:11:02

    Sugary vs zero sugar drinks

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:21

       I'm, I've been, I've cut my, I cut out sugary drinks about a year ago. I still have the same brands, but I have the no sugar version.

    2. TSTim Spector1:07:30

       Oh, dear.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:31

       Oh, shit. What do you mean, oh, dear?

    4. TSTim Spector1:07:33

       Well, all the, all the... The summary of the trials shows that if you take, uh, a, young yadults, young adults and kids, and they were, say, on two cans of, you know, full sugar sodas, and you change them to the diet version, there's no real difference in, in weight or, um, metabolic, um, changes in their blood. Um, the, you will go to the dentist less, so you don't get as many f- fillings. But, uh, and yet, you should be gaining 300 calories, right, if you were doing two cans a day. So it doesn't work out, uh, as it should do, and that's because of the extra... These chemicals are not inert. So the sweeteners, in kids, they change their, their brains to give them, uh, they want more sweetness in their food, okay? So it, it could reflect your wish for your, your late-night milk chocolate. Who knows? Um, and it, it makes k- it very difficult to train kids to have more bitter foods or sour foods if they've got these artificial sweeteners in their diet all the time. But they've now shown that all these sweeteners actually affect your gut microbes. So even stevia, you know, these sort of so-called healthy ones, have an effect on your gut microbes, and they're not inert. So we know that saccharin and sucralose also cause spikes in your blood sugar. Uh, when I did it, you know, I have a trace. They're s- not supposed to, but they, they actually do things they're not supposed to. So we know very little about these, these products, and my view is that they are harmful, probably not as bad as having the sugar. But they are absolutely not a health drink, and we should be encouraging people to have, you know, teas and kombuchas and, uh, more b- more bitter-tasting, interesting flavors and foods than just this ultra-sweet, uh, chemical concoctions.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:35

       Is this... The sugar conglomerate that have been funding much of the research that points towards, um, some of the things you're talking about there, th- there, that's also the conglomerate that wants us to believe the calories in, calories out approach. Because if I just view everyth- all foods as kind of equal and on this sort of calorie number, then I can drink some of the f- sugary, fizzy, fizzy drinks and some of the processed foods. As long as I keep it within that sort of calorie deficit, I'll be fine. And so are they, is that sugar conglomerate, is the processed food conglomerate for the calorie model?

    6. TSTim Spector1:10:08

       Absolutely.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:10:09

       They need that, right?

    8. TSTim Spector1:10:10

       They, absolutely, it's vital, you know, zero calories or one calorie, you know, on the can, that's what you see. And, you know, you're fooling people into thinking this is a, a healthy drink. And, oh, you know, "If I used to have full Coke or Pepsi, and now I'm having the diet version, I'm getting 300 calories less a day, I should lose weight." It's exactly what they've been doing, and they're also desperate to show that artificial sweeteners are s- really healthy, and they come down on anyone who, who tries to say that they're, you know, could be in any way dangerous. And yet they're not obliged to test them. So none of the, none of the chemicals added really go through rigorous testing on how they affect our gut microbes, and this is, uh, this, you know, their testing mechanisms haven't changed in 50 years.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:00

       The gut microbiome, um,

15. 1:11:02 – 1:15:14

    The link between the microbiome & our mood

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:02

       the microbiome as an organ, one of the things you talked about earlier was the impact it has on mood. And, you know, this podcast is, was started as kind of a business podcast. We have a lot of people that are interested in pro- you know, being more productive, being more successful, reaching for their goals. How significant and how pertinent is the, the microbiome on my performance as an entrepreneur, as a business person? What do I need to know about the relationship as it relates to my mood, my performance, my mind?

    2. TSTim Spector1:11:29

       Well, we know more about mood than, than anything else. Um, and so we do know that depression, anxiety is intricately linked to the quality of your gut microbes. We know this from mouse studies where they've transplanted, uh, poo from anxious mice into sterile mice, and those new mice then become anxious and depressed.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:11:56

       Really?

    4. TSTim Spector1:11:57

       So y- it, it's a transmissible condition. And if, if you go back to me telling you that one of the chemicals that our microbes produce is serotonin, okay? Some sort, s- cuddle, you know, love, friendly, warm, um, chemical that affects our brain, that, you know, is the key to dopamine and everything else that goes on in our head. So the levels of that are really important for us bre- having the right neurochemical balance in our head that stops us getting very depressed or very anxious. So we know that you can transmit it between animals.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:33

       So when they say they take the, the poo out of one mouse, they put it inside its gut, inside its stomach, to give it the same microbiome-

    6. TSTim Spector1:12:40

       Yes.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:40

       ... makeup inside its stomach?

    8. TSTim Spector1:12:42

       Yeah, so-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:42

       And then that mouse will become depressed and anxious.

    10. TSTim Spector1:12:45

        Yes. So a lo- a lot of the science bi- microbiome is based on v- large-scale human studies where you've just got, um, cross-sectional data, or this is associated with this, but you don't know if it's cause or effect.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:56

        Mm-hmm.

    12. TSTim Spector1:12:57

        And so there's this whole other grid that's been going on f-... of, of, of projects for 30 years where they have these sterile mice who have no microbes, and you, you create in a, in a lab, these other microbes that you would make them anxious or they're genetically anxious. You look at their microbes and you put ... You take their microbes and you put them into the sterile mice, and you can change their mood and their, um, attention span and everything else about that. So that, that shows that these have a, a direct effect rather than just being secondary. And that, uh, it links to the human data that shows if you take your groups of depressed or anxious people, you'll ... virtually all of them will have deranged microbiomes and be producing abnormal chemicals. And there've been now some recent studies showing that, um, compared to traditional antidepressant medication, uh, probiotics do as well, uh, in many of these studies, if you give a course of probiotic medication. But even more impressive is if you give them a Mediterranean gut-friendly diet. You get actually better results, um, with more remission than you do with antidepressant medication. So it's one of the best examples of how, uh, you know, feeding your, your gut can actually improve your mood, and it particularly important because we're seeing, you know, an epidemic of anxiety and depression. That's partly because of, of not having many good gut microbes to start with, lots of junk food diets which make it worse, and then, of course, once you go into that cycle, once you're depressed, you're not thinking about food. The last thing you want to go out and is, you know, "Oh, I've got to go and get my kimchi today." Uh, you know, it, you just wa- It's just fuel. So once you, once you understand that, you realize that if you want to help someone with depression, you know, the first thing is to not to put them straight onto an antidepressant, which in many cases doesn't work because of this individuality as we're talking about, which probably again related to the microbes because they break down the, the tablet into its active chemicals, but it's to make sure they've actually got gut-friendly diet. And so this is a really exciting area of research.

16. 1:15:14 – 1:19:48

    Focus & ADHD

    1. TSTim Spector1:15:14

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:14

       You mentioned, um, a- attention, the impact that the microbiome can have on attention. That's really interesting to me, because ADHD has become a very, um, widely discussed topic. Do you think there's a link between ADHD and the microbiome?

    3. TSTim Spector1:15:33

       Highly likely, yes. I mean, there, there's less data in it than there is in depression and anxiety. The studies are smaller, but those that I've seen all show, again, a, uh, an abnormality in the gut microbiome of ADHD kids. And, um, there've been a few studies showing that you can reverse it with, um, poo transplants, which is another area that, um, um, w- was quite big a few years ago. It, it's not showing the same potential as it, as it did, but certainly, uh, a- affecting attention, uh, and mood with gut microbes is definitely on the cards. Uh, these studies need to be bigger, but there's certainly preliminary evidence that what's true for depression and anxiety is also true for this whole spectrum of, of other conditions. Also, you know, there have been links in the past to diet and, you know, over sugar and E numbers and all these kind of things. So we- we've sort of known vaguely there's an association, but I think people haven't really pinpointed, um, the gut microbiome, which I think they should. And so absolutely sure that if you improve the diet of many, many of these kids with ADHD, you, you would improve their symptoms. And th- I know there are some ongoing trials at the moment.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:16:51

       It's really been startling over the last couple of years how, um, mental health has really taken center stage in conversations, even conversations on this podcast. Most of them, we discuss mental health issues and things like anxiety and depression. And as we look around the world, the stats around people that are being prescribed antidepressant pills, like, are they called SSRIs, I believe-

    5. TSTim Spector1:17:13

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:14

       ... um, is rising, and I think it's doubled over the last decade or so with the US kind of leading the way, and then other countries like China and Japan at the bottom of the pack. What's your overall view on these, these disorders, depression, mental health, anxiety? Um, do you think it stems predominantly from the microbiome? Is that your perspective now from what you've learnt?

    7. TSTim Spector1:17:39

       No, I think they're, they're multifactorial. So I think we can't, we can't just blame the gut microbiome, because you do get these conditions in people who are, you know, otherwise healthy. Um, genetics plays a role. You know, going back to my old- (laughs)

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:57

       Mm-hmm.

    9. TSTim Spector1:17:58

       ... my old career, um, a lot of evidence of strong genetics in things like depression and anxiety. But you can have the tendency to it, but you need to be triggered into it. Uh, you h- need some environmental event, and it could be that once your gut microbes get in such a bad, you know, gut health is such a poor state, your diet is so bad, that triggers this, and you just lack those chemicals that tip you over into it. So that's why I think if you, if you link these epidemics which we're going through at the moment, whether it's dementia, you know, uh, depression, obesity, diabetes, what are they all linked for? Increasing amounts of ultra-processed foods in our diet. You know, we're the number one country in Europe for this. Rates are still going up. Kids have over 70% of their, uh, food is ultra-processed now. Horrendous. Adults, it's nearly, you know, between 50 and 60% of our, of our meals. So I think that's effect on the gut microbes probably just tips this threshold in people who are susceptible.So, it could be that I think that threshold is going to vary genetically. Some people are very resilient, some people are actually, uh, quite susceptible. And that's my, that's my view of it, um, which probably isn't popular because it's, again, I make things more complicated than, uh-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:20

        Mm-hmm.

    11. TSTim Spector1:19:20

        ... people like. But, you know, I think as a, as a, as a scientist, I think most of these diseases are built up of a different number of risks, but unlike your genetics, you know, your gut health is something you can do something about.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:36

        And that's what you're doing with ZOE?

    13. TSTim Spector1:19:38

        Exactly. That's the whole idea behind ZOE, is to empower people to change their health by individualizing

17. 1:19:48 – 1:29:58

    Your company Zoe

    1. TSTim Spector1:19:49

       what they eat that suits their own metabolism.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:51

       What is ZOE if someone hasn't heard of ZOE before?

    3. TSTim Spector1:19:55

       Uh, ZOE is a personalized nutrition company that I founded, um, nearly six years ago with, uh, two, uh, my co-founders who came to one of my, uh, talks. I was talking about the diet myth and the microbiome, and they came up to me and said, you know, "We think what you're doing is really exciting. We'd, we'd love to talk about getting a company together to personalize this." And I, I do get people asking me to do startup companies, and I said, "Uh, I'm not really interested unless we can spend several million on doing research first." You know, I'm not interested in the usual lifestyle company based on marketing.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:35

       Mm-hmm.

    5. TSTim Spector1:20:35

       And I thought I'd never see them again, but they came back two weeks later and said, "Yes, we've got several million. We're, we're up and running." So, I was, I was stuck then. I couldn't say no. Um, and basically, we got together this massive study called the Predict study, which, uh, looked at a thousand people, mainly twins, gave them these identical meals, gave them these really fancy tech glucose monitors. Um, we're measuring blood spots with, with fat, looking at their microbes, logging foods, seeing how they got on for two weeks, and used that data as algorithms to then predict how they would, people would respond to any food. And then we met about a home test and launched that initially in the, in the US, and, uh, in the last, uh, year, the UK. And we've now got 50,000 people doing this identical home test, which is now a program that they then, once you've got your scores personalized to you, you can look up any food, and it gives you a score from naught to 100 on what that, uh, f- how that food is for you based on your sugar, your glucose, blood sugar profile, your fat profile, and your microbiome. So, it's pushing everyone to have less sugar peaks, less fat peaks, and better gut health. And so it's changed... You know, so in a way, that's, my muesli would give me a terrible score. Um, my orange juice would, you know, a score of zero. Um, but it's also made subtle changes. So, you know, I used to eat bananas, and now they, they scored badly. So, now I have pears instead or apples. Um, little minor shifts often, pushing people, and then you, and you have a virtual nutritionist who helps you plan your menus to get overall scores that are pushing you more and more in this healthy direction. So, you just start to understand how, what's best for your body, and in a sustainable way. And we don't talk about calories. It's like a taboo word. And we're not after crash dieting or anything else. It's like improving yourself from the inside out. So, you... And most people get improved, dramatic improvements in their energy levels, which we hadn't even thought about was the reason. But people started telling us, "I feel much better." Because maybe we're cutting out all these fat and sugar peaks that until the technology came along no one knew about that were, were causing these problems. So, it's going super well. We've got, uh, still a quarter of a million people waiting for the product in the UK on the waiting list.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:13

       Jesus. Wow.

    7. TSTim Spector1:23:13

       And what's really nice is because we've got this, this commercial arm, it allows us to do these other... Um, w- we have the ZOE Health study, which is a free app, which, um, uh, now it's, uh, moving that towards lifestyle like this, these fasting aids and things like this. We've got a neat podcast, the ZOE, uh, Nutrition Podcast, which is getting the word out about our science, plus blogs and things. So, you know, it, it's part of a whole package of, of things that we're doing to sort of educate people differently. A- and as I said, make people think about food in a very different way. And I think it's super exciting because we're... You know, we've just raised some more money. We've done some crowdfunding as well, which has gone amazingly well.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:01

       I saw it this morning.

    9. TSTim Spector1:24:02

       Yeah.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:02

        It's a big valuation for a company.

    11. TSTim Spector1:24:05

        Yes, it is.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:06

        (laughs)

    13. TSTim Spector1:24:06

        Um, and, you know, I think-

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:08

        200 million? (laughs) That's a big number.

    15. TSTim Spector1:24:12

        It is. And it... But, you know, I think we've just got people's attention exactly the right time.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:19

        I agree.

    17. TSTim Spector1:24:20

        And the technology has just been exactly right. So, often it's about timing.

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:23

        Yeah, I agree. Uh, I mean, I've had... As I said to you before we started recording, I've had two of my guests come here and tell me about ZOE individually. So, I think it was Davina McCall and, uh, Gabby Logan who both mentioned it. And then I, I had this email in my inbox, um, from a friend of mine who connected me to George. And then I started reading about some of the work that you'd done and saw some of your videos, and that's why I was compelled to reach out and have you, um, on this podcast. But the idea of personalized health kind of debunks the longstanding narrative and myth that there's this one perfect diet for all of us, there's this one set of foods that we should all be eating to be healthy. And this personalized approach makes a lot more sense. Um, so I think that's the, kind of the moment in time that you've arrived perfectly in from a ZOE perspective, is this awakening to the perspective that personalized individual diets are, um-... the way forward.

Episode duration: 1:36:29