Dr Alex George: My Hardest Day in A&E, Family Suicide & Finding TRUE Purpose. | E89

1. 0:00 – 7:00

   Intro

   1. AGDr Alex George0:00

      I've gone from 200 followers on Instagram to one million in, in nine weeks. I just had tasted the failure so much that I wanted that success. One of the biggest things was going back to, to work. You know, I went back to A&E. I am working in a position where I'm in the resus department of a very busy hospital in A&E in London. The mortality rate with COVID is around 1%. I am seeing that percentage of people who are the sickest who are in the hospital. I could hear in his voice instantly that something really bad happened. And I just said straightaway, like, "Who's, who's died?" It was weird. The whole world, like, closed in. And I can't explain, and it sounds really dramatic, but it was like almost a spotlight came onto me in that moment and I was like, "No. It can't be." I just couldn't believe it. That's the thing about suicide or, you know, when these things happen, it can happen o- out of nowhere and for everyone around that person, it is that guilt that you carry, I think, forever. Ask yourself honestly when is the last time you genuinely sat down and thought about what you want to do in life? What actually is your purpose? What makes you happy? And if you haven't done it in the last year or so, do it. We had a phone call again and she said, "It's back." And I went, "What do you mean?" And she said, "The cancer's back." What do you say to someone who is dying in the next couple of weeks? What can you say? A lot of it's non-verbal. You have a hug and you just share that moment, don't you? But when you walk out of that room, it's like, "Wow, like, I'm not seeing her again." (piano music)

   2. SBSteven Bartlett1:26

      (instrumental music) Dr. Alex George. You may know him from Love Island. You may know him as one of the most well-known A&E doctors in our country, or you may know him as a government advisor to youth mental health, appointed by Boris Johnson last year. Alex knows a whole lot about happiness, about the things that make us unhappy, and about how we should be living if you want to live a truly fulfilling life. In this conversation, you'll come to realize that we are so far away from how we should be living, and that in order to get there, we might have to redesign the entirety of the society we live in. That's a belief that I have. This conversation energized me, it inspired me, it brought tears to my eyes. It gave me absolutely everything. And again, if there's a reason why I started this podcast, it's this conversation. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music) Alex, I, um, read a ton about you over the last, uh, couple of weeks, months, um, since you've sort of risen into the, the public eye. And, uh, one of the things that I really wanted to understand before, and I, I tend to start here with most of my guests, is I want to understand what it was from your childhood that made you the man you are today and what those significant moments were in your view.

   3. AGDr Alex George2:55

      Wow. That's a, that's a deep question to dive straight into.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett2:59

      (laughs) .

   5. AGDr Alex George2:59

      Uh, let's, let's get in there. Um, well, I mean, look, I, I was brought up in ... Born and brought up in, in West Wales. Um, I lived, uh, on a little small holding. My parents, not farmers actually. Uh, often (laughs) people assume they have a farming background. My dad, um, a policeman. My mum, uh, worked in a bank. Um, and I had quite a, I think a quiet upbringing, you know, in the countryside. Two brothers, two younger brothers. Um, school life for me, I think was up and down. You know, I was bullied quite a lot at school. A little bit in primary school, more, more so in secondary school. Um, but I think as I grew up, I was naturally, I think probably innately as probably as well as my environment that I was in, I was introverted or became an introvert. Um, I know there's a lot of conversation about are you born that way, is it you're molded that way. I think probably a bit of both for me. Um, and I think, you know, when I was at school and, and as I was growing up, I think my, my parents were a, a big influence on my life. I think they instilled a lot of the values that I have. My mum was a big, big believer in that you should, you know, go out there and try and add value to people around you in the world. And their focus was around what you achieve in terms of that rather than necessarily being, trying to, like, be really successful, make loads of money, or, or whatever. And I think that instilled in me that sense of I want to do good, or try. You know? I'm not sitting here thinking, you know, well, I have the same ... You know, I love cars, I love all these different things as well. (laughs) I'm not saying I'm, you know, just trying to be some kind of save-the-world person. But I had that kind of general thing that I'd like to go out there and do something good if I could. Um, and I think when I was about 13, 14, I, I had been a bit interested in science. I liked, you know, uh, I liked the idea of, um, working in a, in a career or going into a career that had, um, you know, a sense of teamwork, a, a purpose, uh, which might sound a bit odd as an introvert, but, you, you know, I still wanted to be a s- part of a movement, if you like. And that's why medicine kind of appealed to me. So, um, I started kind of watching early shows of, like, the equivalent to 24 Hours in A&E, um, back in the day and really, really kind of thought, "Oh, it'd be amazing to be an A&E doctor. The excitement, the adrenaline. That'd be so awesome.I I love that idea of, you know, using science and medicine to save people." And I just started working towards that goal, really. Um, and, uh, I'd say that, again, school wasn't that easy for me for various reasons. Um, I know now that I'm dyslexic. I didn't know that then. I didn't know it at school, didn't know it at university. But I really struggled with my written work and stuff. And I was very frustrated actually at school a lot of the time. Um, I also had a very short attention span. Um, when I was in primary school, I was put into a special needs class for a long time because, um, well, I don't know, I think I, I, I had a short attention span. Maybe they were concerned about me. (laughs) I don't really know why, um, that was a concern. My mum actually went into school and said, "Actually, Alex is quite bright. You know, I think he'll be fine." Went back into the normal classroom and we kind of continued fr- from, from there. Um, in secondary school, again, struggled a bit with the written work.And actually when I, um, when I applied to- to med school the first time around, and I did all the interviews, got my place, I actually missed out on my, um, grades of, uh, uh, grade A in my chemistry by two marks, um, which cost my place at med school, which was actually one of the most painful moments of my life. And I think really, really a defining moment, um, because, uh, the school I was in, I wasn't in a great... yeah, I'm not gonna say horrible school. It was a perfectly fine school, but I wouldn't say it was like a really, really high achieving school. It was a state school, um, no one I think had done medicine for a couple of years, a good few years potentially. Everyone's excited about this idea we've got a student going, um, and there was a kind of everyone waiting for me to kind of open with results, and I was like, "Yeah, I've got two A's and a B, or three A's and a B. Brilliant, I'm really s- glad about that. But sadly, my two marks means that I can't go to med school." And I think that was a really defining moment for me. I th- that was kind of my first feeling of failure in a way. And I think all of that, all of that has come together to kind of mold my attitude, I think, to life and to kind of working hard, to wanting to achieve, to kind of appreciating success

2. 7:00 – 19:20

   Origins: Bullying, Introversion And Choosing Medicine

   1. AGDr Alex George7:00

      when you have it.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett7:01

      You said you were bullied in school. What for?

   3. AGDr Alex George7:04

      Uh, I grew very tall very quickly. I was very skinny. Um, I always had quite a bit of acne and stuff when I was younger. Um, and I think, but mainly actually, the main reason I think I was bullied was 'cause I was sensitive. I am sensitive as a person, um, and I think things would get to me probably more so than I noticed my friends or other people around me. And I think that, sadly, sensitivity attracts some, you know, bullies at times, you know. When- at the moment doing a massive campaign with, uh, Number 10 and the Diana Award around bullying and tackling that, and a lot of the young people I speak to have experienced the same. You know, sensitivity sadly attracts that. But it's odd, because now I look back and think, uh, you know, at the time, I thought that was a real weakness. But now I see it as a real strength, and I think my sensitivity has allowed me to be, uh, a better doctor. Uh, I think my- uh, uh, my ability to have empathy on my patients. I read people very well. I understand when I'm in a team, you know, even now, whether it's, uh, you know, in the hospital or the team that I'm working with, or kind of from a management perspective, or whether it's people working, you know, working with people at Number 10, I read people very well. I understand people, and that allows me to get the best outta people. But back then, it was a real target for bullies, I think.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett8:16

      Mm-hmm. And obviously as you've, you know, you've spoken about at length, that sensitivity, I guess, is incredibly conducive with having positive mental health.

   5. AGDr Alex George8:24

      Yeah. I- I- I- I th- I think so. I think it's, it's about, you know, when you're talking about, um, being an introvert and things, and being sen- uh, being sensitive, they're not necessarily, uh, uh, mutually exclusive or necessarily come together. But I- I- I do think that it's about learning to... learning what you have and how to use that to your- y- use your strengths, you know, turn them into your strengths. I saw that as a big weakne- weakness, whereas now I see it as a great strength. And- and I think sometimes obviously growing up, you're unaware of what's good or bad about you physically, or, you know, in terms of your personality types. And sometimes the things that you kind of very harden yourself about when you're younger, like being sensitive, I'm now quite glad of.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett9:01

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AGDr Alex George9:01

      Even though now, of course, it still leaves me open (laughs) . I mean-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett9:04

      Yeah.

   9. AGDr Alex George9:04

      ... you know how it is being, you know, um, known in the, uh, public eye, whatever. I hate that phrase, but you- you, yeah, I think it's an understood one. Um, it obviously opens you up because you're open to criticism a lot. And especially now with the work that I'm doing in the mental health space, it's- it's tough, and there's a lot of people in the political space, people watching what's happening, who, uh, will criticize you, um, you know, and- and that is not easy. But you learn to deal with it, and you- you build a bit of a thicker skin as well, I think.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett9:33

       Have you learned to deal with it? 'Cause as you say, one point something million followers on Instagram, 1.9 million followers on Instagram-

   11. AGDr Alex George9:37

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett9:37

       ... or whatever it is. Um, that's a lot of people. Probabilistically, there's gonna be a bunch of them in there that, you know-

   13. AGDr Alex George9:43

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett9:43

       ... they just wanna ruin your day.

   15. AGDr Alex George9:45

       You know, it's funny because out of all the things I've had, I've had the- the- the full works of death threats and all this kind of stuff particularly, you know, the anti-vax and- and things like that we've been recently months and stuff. That doesn't bother me at all, funny enough. I don't mind that. And people can call me ugly or they can say I look a certain way or, you know, they can call me what they want, um, in that sense. And it doesn't bother me too much, to be honest. I've really been able to kind of... even though that was the kind of stuff that bothered me when I was younger, I'm very resilient to that now. What I think I'm more sensitive to now is when people kind of criticize the things that I'm working on that really matters to me, particularly the stuff around the mental health space, you know. When... I've been actually wor- been working in this space for- for a good few years before I even moved

   16. NANarrator10:26

       Yeah.

   17. AGDr Alex George10:27

       ... to the... before 2018 when I was on Love Island, and e- even before all that, I was really, you know, actively working with the- the charities. I was also, um, you know, passionate advocate in my space in A&E, we see a huge amount of mental health. I mean, a hu- one of the big misconceptions about A&E is we just see, you know, injuries, cuts, and bruises, and heart attacks and things. At least 30% of our workload relates to mental health, and I s- I think it's probably higher than that in reality. Um, and- and I've really worked in that space. But obviously, you know, since I was appointed Youth Mental Health Ambassador, since sadly my brother passed away last year, which kind of led to me focusing even more and I guess the attention on it, which led to the appointment, it's tough sometimes when people go, "Well, oh, you, you know, you got 80 million for mental health support teams at school. Why didn't you get 200? You know, you've let us down you didn't get 200 million." It's very hard, you know, and it, it's, when you, especially when I go, I'm very, I'm naturally a very optimistic and positive person, you know. When I came to the role, I was in the role, and I was in it for about two or three weeks when we got the 80 million quid. That's a lot of money. You know, at a time in a pandemic where the government's pretty strapped, we've spent a load of money, I'm not just saying it's just me, we've w- worked as a... there's other people within the, with the group and, and the Number 10 and outside that worked on this. But I would, I think it's fair to say I was a big steerer on that happening. And then someone goes, "Oh, you didn't get enough. You've let us down. What you've done is terrible." You know, "You shouldn't be there. Why are you in this role?" Not easy, um, but I always go back to it. And I think at the time when it came out, there was a huge... and I should say this, I have 95% amount of s- uh, of support has been unbelievable. It's always the 5% or the 1% or whatever that they get to a little bit. But, you know, now I've gone back to the idea of, well, actually, what are my values? What matters to me? And I go, "Well, actually, I believe that I am making...... you know, at least if, even if it's a millimeter of difference, I'm doing something, I'm doing something positive. And that keeps me going, and that's what stops me becoming down, I guess, from, from the kind of hate, if you like.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett12:17

       Are you, are you a confident person?

   19. AGDr Alex George12:20

       No, I don't think so. Um, I'm confident, um... Ah, that's a good question. No, I'm not. I don't think so. Not inherently confident. I think I'll always... If you put me in a, in a, in a party, if we were at a swanky party in New York that you might attend or whatever (laughs) before the pandemic-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett12:37

       (laughs)

   21. AGDr Alex George12:37

       ... um, I'd probably be the guy in the corner quietly chatting to one or two people, you know? And just, I wouldn't, I would certainly avoid center of attention, classic kind of introvert in that sense. But I, even though I'm not confident, I do think I'm very resilient and I think I'm very determined, and I think that helps me a lot. Where confidence lacks sometimes, my determination I think pushes through.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett12:59

       I mean, it, uh, uh, y- uh, it kind of begs the question, and I'm, I'm sure, you know, you're probably sick of people inquiring about this apparent contradiction, which is not a confident person, in your own definition of confidence, um, and yet when that Love Island researcher comes knocking on your Instagram when you have 200 followers and says, "Do you want to be, be on one of the biggest shows in the world-

   23. AGDr Alex George13:21

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett13:22

       ... topless?" (laughs)

   25. AGDr Alex George13:23

       Yeah. (laughs)

   26. SBSteven Bartlett13:26

       Like, one of the biggest shows in the country topless, you were like, "Sure." (laughs)

   27. AGDr Alex George13:31

       Right. Well, I mean, uh, this, the reason that happened was... Look, my, when I was at university, I, I, and, and I loved my time at university. I was, uh, mostly, and I'll come and talk about, a little bit about a time that wasn't so good maybe in a little bit. But on the whole, pretty, pretty good time. Um, but in my second year at uni, one of my very, very good friends, Freya Barlow, who was... And it's, it's annoying 'cause sometimes you hear, and I, I don't mean this in any disrespect, obviously you hear people talking about someone that's passed and, and everyone goes, "Oh, they're amazing. They do this and they do this and that." But honestly, like Freya was the most amazing person. She started like two charities even by her second year in med school. She spent her summers vaccinating kids and, you know, and, and, and abroad and going to Africa, and just doing like really amazing work. And very sadly, you know, well, I actually remember one week, it was towards the wintertime, I'm trying to remember, towards the wintertime, I said, "Freya, you've got some bruises on your arm." I mean, "Are you all right?" She said, "Oh, it's a bit... Yeah, a bit odd, I've got a few bruises. I'm actually gonna see the doctor," I think it was the next day or the day after. Anyway, a couple of days later, we had a text, um, uh, in the group saying, "We need to go for dinner tonight and talk to you guys." Thought, "This is hard." So we went to, went to dinner and she sat us down and, and said, "Look, you know, these bruises that I've had, I went to the doctor, had blood tests taken. Next day, rushed into hospital. I've got leukemia." You know, she had acute myeloid leukemia, which is a very, very serious, serious form of leukemia. And to put it into context, it differs between people, but it can be a matter of short weeks from being diagnosed to passing away if you don't have treatment really quickly. So it's one of the most aggressive and, uh, nasty cancers that you can have. Um, so it was a huge shock to all of us. And she l- quite literally went to dinner, and the next morning straight into isolation in the hospital to have nuclear chemotherapy, basically, like really, really strong chemotherapy. She was in there for a huge length of time, many, many months, um, and, you know, it, it was really hard to watch her, you know, hair, h- hair f- falling out, you know, losing weight, you know, swelling in her arms and feet and things like that from, from the chemo. And she was always so positive throughout the whole thing. Her positivity was unbelievable, and how relentless she was, um, and even to the point where she's actually... You know, the university said, "Look, take time out clearly. You know, we want you to recover and have time out." She said, "No, I want to do my tests, I want to do my exams." She sat her exams in isolation, in an isolation cubicle in the hospital, which is just unbelievable and shows her resilience. Um, anyway, after a long period of time, I think it was six months or more, um, she actually had a bone marrow, uh, transplant, uh, from, it was, I think it was someone in Germany, um, that gave her the bone marrow. And she came out the hospital and we were like, "Yes, you know, she's getting through this." Um, and she even ran a marathon, something silly, like a month or so, a couple of months after, afterwards to raise money for leukemia research, you know? Straight, we were like, "Just chill out a bit." No, she's like, "No, I'm straight back to charity work." Fine. So then running into the next winter, um, we had a phone call again, and she said, "It's back." And I went, "What do you mean?" And she went, "The, the cancer's back." And she was told she had a matter of weeks to live because she'd had the bone marrow transplant, it was now at the point where there was basically nothing you could do. So we threw her a big ball, uh, and a party to kind of, kind of celebrate her life to that point. Um, and we all kind of said our goodbyes. We went, I went to her house actually to say, uh, goodbye to her, um, and one of the things she said to me, before she pa- well, she passed away, uh, g- like a week or so later, it wasn't very long, uh, she said, "Alex, you're an introvert, you're somet- you're, I think you've got a lot of talent in terms of what you do and I'm very proud of the things you do, and I think you, you're, you know, you've got a lot of potential in your life, but you sometimes shy away, and I want you to go out there and say yes to things, put yourself in comf- in, out of your comfort zone." 'Cause I think it's fair to say often in life, I just keep myself in that comfort zone. She said, "Put yourself out of that comfort zone. You know, say yes to things. Live your life. You know, I'm in a position now where my, I have to stop my life here. I want you to live yours." And that, I think, is, uh, a l- very long-winded explanation, but that is why I went on that show. 'Cause I actually was very resistant to it the whole time, and even to now the, the execs will say I'm the one person that didn't want to go on the show, you know? But I was like, I almost felt like I don't know what I believe and what you don't believe. I was like, I was like, "What would Freya say?" She said, "Get on that show and do it." And that's why I did it.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett17:38

       I can't imagine what it's like having to go and say goodbye to a friend like that.

   29. AGDr Alex George17:43

       Um, and, and, uh, uh, it's so difficult, and, and at that, at that age, you know, only 22 or 23 or something, whatever I was, it's, it's very odd. It's very odd to have a conversation with someone, and like we've, I've, we've experienced, everyone's experienced grief, uh, at some point, and, but this was the only, and still is the only time I've been sat with someone knowing it was the last conversation. It's a very...... odd situation because what do you say to someone who is dying in the next couple of weeks? And they're so young and you had all this hope about them getting better. Um, but, and I remember, it's almost like I go back to that moment, uh, so intensely because in that moment I was like, "This is the last chance I'm gonna speak to this person. I need to capture every second of this." So it's almost like hardwired into my brain. Um, but I really appreciated what she said. And I, to this day, even now, you know, I was on Sky News this morning and stuff, which is, again, miles out my comfort zone, never, uh, you know, I'm g- I'm becoming more used to these things now, but miles out my comfort zone, none of that stuff would happen if it wasn't for what she said to me, I don't think. Um, I'd have just continued staying within that comfort zone, not pushing myself, um, and protecting myself in a way, I guess.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett18:52

       What did you say to her on that day?
3. 19:20 – 32:00

   Failure, Dyslexia And Building Resilience

   1. AGDr Alex George19:20

      cruel can it be to happen to that person? But obviously in that moment, you don't wanna say that. You know, she, uh, she... You just wanna instill that feeling of love and appreciation for them. Um, but it was hard. What can you say? A lot of it's non-verbal. You have a hug and you just share that moment, don't you? But when you walk out that room, it's like, "Wow, like I'm not seeing her again." Very odd.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett19:42

      Very difficult.

   3. AGDr Alex George19:44

      Very odd. Very difficult. But, you know, and I'm very grateful and I know posi- uh, and I've taken it straight into a darker place there, but on a real positive, you know, I feel that the people around us could just, do, have, can have such an impact on our lives and, like, so much light has come from her life because of that. I continue to talk about it as much possible. Uh, you know, and, and we all celebrate her and, and her life. And I hope that I have taken a bit of her with me to do some of the things I'm doing now. And I hope that she'd be proud of some of it.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett20:11

      And you were, you were working in, uh, sort of emergency medicine before the Love Island experience began. So it beg- begs the question, how did you get into that if you weren't able to go to medical school?

   5. AGDr Alex George20:20

      Well, so, so basically I'd applied at the time, if we go back to when I missed my grades, um, and this is where I think I learnt about failure, which I think is very important. I'm talking about success, but failure's incredibly important. Um, I failed by two marks, so obviously absolutely gutted, didn't have my grades. What made it worse was me and my friend were going to Liverpool together. He was gonna do, go to dental school, I was gonna go to med school.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett20:40

      Oh God.

   7. AGDr Alex George20:40

      Best buddies all the way through. Like, "Can't wait." And obviously like, "Oh mate, sorry. You enjoy yourself."

   8. SBSteven Bartlett20:45

      Freshest week out.

   9. AGDr Alex George20:45

      Yeah, gutted. Um, so I had to apply again. I had... Well, I had... Actually I remember I sat down with my mom and, um, she was very upset as you, as you can imagine. And I said, "Look, mom, it's fine. I'm gonna apply again. I'll get the grades, I'll do the interviews, do the tests you've gotta do for the application. It's fine, I'll get in." Um, and I believed that I would. I was like, "I'm not gonna give up." I corrected a few sentences on my coursework that I needed to correct (laughs) to get the marks back up. I reapplied again, did the interviews, and I got my place. And I went-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett21:11

       Does that sound like a guy that lacks confidence?

   11. AGDr Alex George21:14

       Uh, (laughs) I don't know. I think, I think r- I think resi- that resil- resilience and confidence are probably separate things. I think I, that was the f- one of the first times I really faced properly in my life where I'd really failed and I had to kind of ask myself the question, "Do I give up?" And I was like, "I am not giving up. I'm going." And I think it was like... And, but I think that did give me confidence. I think if we're talking about that, it's like that resilience of going, I was like, "Wow." When I got the place again and I went to med school, I did feel more confident about that. I might not be confident to walk topless (laughs) in front of people, like when my knees were shaking walking out on Love Island, but I, I was more confident in myself that I was resilient. And when I went to med school, the great thing was, and I think this is why failure is so important, A, I knew how painful it is to miss, nearly miss out on something that means a lot to you. But secondly, I really appreciate it when I've actually succeeded. So when I was at med school, I just appreciated it so much. I loved every moment of it, you know. I, I worked hard, you know, and I, m- even though I nearly missed out on going, I came out with a distinction, the top kind of two or three in the year. You know, uh, a few people each year get a distinction. So I, I ended up in, doing well. But I don't think that's 'cause I'm particularly better than a- any one of the other exams or whatever, I just had tasted the failure so much that I wanted that success. And I think that has been a really good life lesson. You know, I still fail today. We all fail, right, all the time. But I know that I can pick myself up and I will always get there.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett22:35

       Psst. Do you wanna come in and watch this podcast live from behind the scenes? If you do, all you have to do is hit the subscribe button. And now that the world is opened up, you'll be behind the scenes as many of our subscribers have been. I can't wait to meet you. That's part of what inspires you to try things outside of your, the sort of circumference of your comfort zone, is knowing that even if, you know, the worst possible outcome occurs, you, you've been here before, you survived the storm-

   13. AGDr Alex George23:01

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett23:01

       ... and, and it worked out in the end. And I think even for me now in my life when, you know, 'cause we're all, our comfort zones, uh, are all subjective to-

   15. AGDr Alex George23:08

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett23:09

       ... our, our experiences in life. So I have a comfort zone too (laughs) you know what I mean?

   17. AGDr Alex George23:12

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett23:12

       People at, people who think I've achieved a lot in like my business career or whatever, I still have a comfort zone. There's still this thing in my head that says, "Steve, this is what you're capable of." Right?

   19. AGDr Alex George23:19

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett23:19

       And so even when I step outside of mine, the thing that I'm always relying on in the hardest moments of my life is that hindsight of, you know, we've, we've been here before. We've got through this.

   21. AGDr Alex George23:30

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett23:30

       And it, and it... And you gotta have faith, even if it doesn't feel like it, even if your emotions are telling you otherwise, you gotta have faith and trust yourself.

   23. AGDr Alex George23:35

       Well, you learn every time you extend that boundary of your comfort zone, you've got a step further.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett23:39

       Mm-hmm.

   25. AGDr Alex George23:40

       I mean, what, what are the mo- A, what you're doing at the moments outside of your kind of-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett23:43

       Me.

   27. AGDr Alex George23:43

       ... comfort zone.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett23:43

       Yeah.

   29. AGDr Alex George23:43

       What are you, what are you doing that's kind of pushing you? Because we're all, we're... I think it's important to share because-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett23:48

       Sure.
4. 32:00 – 41:00

   Sensitivity, Public Scrutiny And Online Criticism

   1. AGDr Alex George32:00

      why should the next situ- situation be any worse?"

   2. SBSteven Bartlett32:03

      I, I completely agree with everything you're saying. In fact, I sent one of my best friends a quote last night that I'd written, um, because of his, the situation he was in.

   3. AGDr Alex George32:10

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett32:10

      And I think it kind of exemplifies what we're saying. I said, "If you want to avoid making the same mistakes twice, make more decisions based on your past memories and less decisi- decisions based on your current emotions." And what I was trying to say there is that in the moment, when you're in that relationship or you're in that toxic job situation, you'll, you'll be, um, uh, like, suffocated and, um, imprisoned by your own fear, um, of uncertainty or failure, or, "I'll never meet someone as good as this..."

   5. AGDr Alex George32:34

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett32:34

      ... or whatever it is, but you've always got through it. You've been in love. Like, with me-

   7. AGDr Alex George32:39

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett32:39

      ... I was convinced from the age of 12 that I was gonna marry Jasmine.

   9. AGDr Alex George32:43

      (laughs)

   10. SBSteven Bartlett32:43

       And then at 14, I was convinced it was Helen, and then at 16 I was c- like, do you know, I've always thought that this-

   11. AGDr Alex George32:48

       (laughs)

   12. SBSteven Bartlett32:48

       ... person was the one.

   13. AGDr Alex George32:49

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett32:49

       In the moment, I've always thought, "This is it." And look at me moving on to number seven and thinking, "This is it!" (laughs)

   15. AGDr Alex George32:57

       (laughs) It's, you, you kind of hold onto your current situation because w- ultimately, we always go, "Well, actually, my current situation I'm in, I'm not in pain. I've got food and water. I feel okay. It's not that terrible. What if the next situation, whatever that might be-"

   16. SBSteven Bartlett33:09

       Yeah.

   17. AGDr Alex George33:09

       "... work or otherwise, life or others, what if that is worse than my current one?" We always fear the, fear the unknown. But it's the, it's like this, and I hope I'm quot- quoting the right, (laughs) the right genius. I think it was Einstein that said, um, you know, the, the, it's the, the definition of insanity is repeating the same action or it's roughly along the lines-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett33:28

       Yeah.

   19. AGDr Alex George33:28

       ... of repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome. You know, if you, you know, one plus one is always gonna be two, so, you know, if you're n- if you're having that same outcome and frustrated with it, you have to change something in your equation to bring something different.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett33:39

       Amen. We were talking about f- um, failure there, and, and you, and you know, that led us on to talk about university, and you, you, um, subtly said that there was a part of university which you didn't enjoy.

   21. AGDr Alex George33:50

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I think, um, I don't think anyone in life lives an entire life of having just being happy all the time, everything's great, and having periods of being flat or sad or losing yourself. And I think my time for that up to date, uh, I think was probably at university. I was at my fourth year. Everything going great, study's going great. I was on for doing really well. Um, and I, I actually was based... So I went to university in Peninsula, which is extra in Plymouth, but we do placements all the way around that kind of peninsula, so-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett34:18

       Extra in Plymouth. (laughs)

   23. AGDr Alex George34:19

       Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

   24. SBSteven Bartlett34:20

       (laughs)

   25. AGDr Alex George34:20

       Uh, and I, and I, I loved my time there. But I got sent down to Truro to, to hospital there, and I loved the hospital, the people, everyone was fantastic. But I was kind of away from friends. I was in a place that I just, I just felt quite isolated. And I actually suspect I'm probably just putting it on that as a place of reasoning. But for whatever reason, I just become quite flat and I lost interest in my exercise, stopped exercising. My studies even, like, I wasn't really working as much as I should have been. Sleep went out the window. I was staying up late, getting up, you know, getting up late. Eating bad. I just lost myself entirely. I became quite unhappy. And I kept really quiet about it. I didn't tell anyone 'cause I thought, "This is terrible." You know, 'cause if I'm gonna be a doctor I need to be like, really, really strong. Like, how can you be a caring professional if you can't take care of yourself? So I left it a long time, probably like six, seven months of feeling pretty damn miserable. Um, to the point where eventually I was like, "I need to do something." But I was like, "I can't speak to the med school 'cause they might think, this guy, we, we gotta have to hold him back or something, he can't be a doctor." When that's not true, and I actually look back and think that was a, you know... Sadly, that's a big part of the stigma around mental health, but that, that isn't true. But at the time I felt that way. So I called who, who, a lot of, a lot of people relate to this. What, what do you do in a situation of trouble? Called my mom. Uh, and I said... You know, it was a big outpouring of emotion. I was like, "This is, you know, this is what's happening. I feel dreadful." And she said, "Well, look, there's a few things we're gonna do. We're gonna talk every single day and start s- speaking about the thoughts and things you're having," 'cause I was beating myself up a lot and about insensitive and weak and all this stuff. I was like, "Let's talk about this stuff. And secondly, let's start getting you doing the things that you know that are good for you." You know, she was like, "You've stopped doing all the anchors in your life that keep you feeling good." She's pretty wise for someone who's not a doctor. You know, uh, she's a bank, works in the bank but very wise woman, clearly. Um, I'd like to think so. And she said, "Look, start doing those things again." So I thought, "Yeah, you're right. You know, she's... It makes sense." So, "I'll go for a walk every day so I get the actual light and the benefits of being outside in nature. Let's start exercising again." So I created an exercise routine. I was like, "I'm eating crap, eating rubbish food. Let's start cooking again and make my own food, uh, rather than just getting ready meals." Um, and, and I was like, "Let's, I'm not really connecting with people, so let's plan stuff." So I started making plans with my friends. Uh, and I also had an idea where I was like, "Well, actually, you know, to help me feel less isolated, let's call a different friend every day, some people I haven't spoke to for years, and just chat to them." And all these little things, all these micro changes added up within literally weeks to, like, transforming how I felt. I got my zest and vive back. I had my energy back. I was like, "I'm back to that kind of type A-"... you know, a happy, forceful person for, to kind of go out and really make the most of each day. And, and, and I think I've learned so much from that. And I've learned from that throughout, um, throughout my time post-university, but also I've learned about that in terms of what I think people kind of don't understand about health. And, you know, when I was a, when I was working at Lewisham Hospital, I still work there now in A&E, so many people that I see, so many patients come in and I realize that they've not been given the tools through education and school about understanding how to actually look after themselves. You know, we're taught so much at school about maths and English and history and whatever, but no one tells you about why sleep is actually so important to your productivity, your self-worth, your happiness. That sleep is not actually a, a, a state of just being sed- sed- sedated, you're actually in a creative space. The idea that, you know, nutrition can actually help you feel better, not just like, just for having a diet or whatever, that people kind of see it as. You know, the role of exercise. All these different things. And I'm like, "B- but these things actually do matter 'cause these things are not only keep you, keep you physically healthy, keep you mentally healthy as well." And that's where, you know, the book Live Well came from. I, I wrote that book because I felt those are the things that no one taught me in school. And even at med school, you know, we focus on anatomy, physiology, uh, and pathology, looking at diseases and treatments, but we didn't do enough, in my opinion, about these fundamental things around sexual health, physical health, uh, in terms of, you know, sleep, exercise, passion and purpose. You know, a big reason that we go to school r- surely is to find what our purpose and what we want to do in life, and no one kind of gives you any tools, I don't think, to figure out what that is. You know, I was lucky to find my kind of sense of purpose. I was... kind of stumbled upon it, you know, based on some of my interests and I was kind of lucky. Um, and I really felt that that, that those kind of bits, as you know, that's why I wrote that book. I felt that that is the stuff that I wish people had told me when I was younger, you know?

   26. SBSteven Bartlett38:35

       So I've got a couple of points here. (clears throat) When you went through that phase in university, would you class- classify yourself as being depressed at that point?

   27. AGDr Alex George38:42

       I would look back now and say I was depressed. I had low energy. Um, my mood was poor. My sleep was disturbed. Uh, a lack of interest in my hobbies and stuff. There's plenty of kind of tick boxes for, for being in that category. As I said, I had mild depression at the time, mild to moderate depression.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett38:56

       And you said there that, and this is, uh, 'cause it, I mean, it speaks volumes to me, uh, what you said after, which was that people w- what I heard was that people don't understand the full range of the causes of depression.

   29. AGDr Alex George39:09

       Yeah.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett39:09

       And I've sat here twice now with Johanna Hari. Uh, do you know Johanna Hari?
5. 41:00 – 56:20

   Freya’s Leukemia And The Promise To Live Bravely

   1. AGDr Alex George41:00

      that way. You know, a lot of the things in modern life are pulling us away from good quality sleep, giving us bad sleep. They're pulling us towards fast foods and processed foods, away from natural sources of, you know, good quality food that fuels our body. A- and if you look at it, all that, and you think about another way, it makes a lot of sense why people feel quite lost, they don't know why they feel a certain way. And I think we just need to kind of step back and go, "Let's educate." And this is why, you know, with the work I'm doing in the youth mental health role, I'm focused on education so much. Uh, you know, and we've made five, uh, wellbeing videos for this summer as part of the summer school program, which are gonna go out to all the schools in the UK. And we're looking at, we're looking at sleep, we're looking at exercise, we're looking at nutrition, we're looking at managing social media and what to do when you're not feeling good in yourself. And within those videos and within the toolkits we're giving, I'm hoping there's a lot of stuff in there that people will go, "Wow, like, I, I didn't realize that about sleep and why that's important or, you know, why I need to get s- natural light, why I need to get outside." So I think so much of that stuff comes together. I'm not saying that the cause of mental illness is always related to lifestyle. That is obviously not true. There's a huge amount out there that's, you know, to do with genetics and, and, and disease isn't... you can't blame lifestyle for all disease. But I do think it's a big part of it. And if you look at what happens when you go to your doctor and say, "I'm depressed. I need help." The first thing we look at is lifestyle. A- and we combine that with other treatments if needed, regardless of that disease. And actually, even when you're looking at severe forms of mental illness, the lifestyle factor will always remain really, really important because without that, I don't think the treatments can, can, can do it alone.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett42:33

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AGDr Alex George42:33

      It has to be a combination thing. But this is what... you know, and there's so many people out there, not necessarily depressed, but they're just low mood of just anhedonia. They just don't feel themselves. They're just a bit lost. And I think a lot of it comes back to the things I talk about in that book.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett42:45

      I couldn't agree more. And when I... Because I agree so much-

   5. AGDr Alex George42:48

      (laughs)

   6. SBSteven Bartlett42:49

      ... I've, I've tried to figure out how one would, from their, you know, from their apartment here in Shoreditch, do something to help. And because it's such a fundamental issue about the way we've chosen to live our lives, you know, illuminated gr- glass screens to date, to order food, to move around, as you said, isolated, four white walls. These, like, you can't tear that down surely. So, I, like, we, it, I, I reflect and go, we would literally have to rethink the way we live our entire lives, the foundations in which our lives are built, in order to solve this problem. That's genuinely what I think. To, to truly solve this problem, we'd have to redesign our society.

   7. AGDr Alex George43:28

      I think so. I think we... And, and even, I think as a whole, I think that's a big part of the solution. But as an individual, if you're sitting within this spa- uh, you know, in, you're living in the world we're in now-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett43:38

      Evolution.

   9. AGDr Alex George43:38

      ... right? You can't get rid of social media. It's part of our work. It's literally part of the, the mouthpiece of a lot of the stuff that we do, for example. You can't get rid of that, so what is the answer? It's about adapting, uh, and making sure that you are aware in your life of these principles, and thinking about how you can actually adapt your life to make sure you're encapsulating, uh, you're incorporating that. For example, stuff like, I know if I don't go for a walk each day and get natural light and just feel that I'm about in, around in nature, I get anxious. I, I feel a sense of just, like, being, uh, not at ease. So, I make sure every morning, I get up in the morning, first thing I do every day is go for a walk, out for a walk in nature. I move. It's great for productivity. I get great ideas sometimes when I'm thinking and walking. Some bad ones as well.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett44:18

       (laughs)

   11. AGDr Alex George44:18

       But generally, just being out and about is brilliant for that.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett44:21

       Yeah.

   13. AGDr Alex George44:21

       You know, I make sure that the end of each day, I g- again, get outside, I move, but also I do my exercise at the end of the day. It signifies the end of my, like, working day. You know, I plan things, meaningful connections with my friends and family now more than ever. Like, it's so easy just to chat on the phone or FaceTime. I'm like, now that we can more safely with the pandemic, you know, make time for the people around you. See them in person, do things with them in, in meaningful ways. Talking about sleep, you know, the whole, like, sleep when you're dead idea, and a lot of, I think, you know, you talk, you get to talk to obviously a lot of very successful, uh, business people, and sometimes the slightly negative side of the work, th- that, that life is not finding that balance of sleep. And I, and I know the things I'm judging as well, that can be difficult. But I, I really, really value and understand that if I don't have my eight hours sleep and good quality sleep, I'm not gonna be as productive. I won't actually be as creative, and I probably won't be as success- successful at the things I'm doing. So, it's just making those changes, you know, just n- just being aware. Once you're aware of a problem, you talked in an episode before about the... talked about, um, exercising between, uh, for the summer.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett45:22

       Yeah.

   15. AGDr Alex George45:22

       Summer shape, right?

   16. SBSteven Bartlett45:23

       Yes. Fuck. (laughs)

   17. AGDr Alex George45:23

       And being in summer body, right? We'll call it.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett45:25

       Yeah.

   19. AGDr Alex George45:25

       Not calling out every-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett45:25

       Like you before the virus. (laughs)

   21. AGDr Alex George45:26

       Yeah. No, no. Exactly. No, but also, but it, but, but you, but part of, uh, for m- uh, same for me as well, uh, I went, "Well, h- why is that? Why are we doing that?" Well, as soon as you're aware of the why-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett45:37

       Yeah.

   23. AGDr Alex George45:37

       ... and why we're doing something, we then, through that awareness, modify, and we realize, all of a sudden, we modify our, our behavior. It's kind of idea if I say to you, "Right, focus on your breathing," it's like, "Oh, like, think about your breath," all of a sudden, you start controlling your breathing.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett45:50

       Mm.

   25. AGDr Alex George45:50

       You're aware of it. You're making a conscious, um, conscious decision around that, that subject. So, I think just having that knowledge, have that understanding, and be aware of what it's doing to your life. Some of it might, you might incorporate, some of you think, "Actually, I'm fine," in that sense. But think about it. Be aware.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett46:04

       You also raise such a good point and, you know, like, up until... So, the example you gave just for reference sake is, um, I always... The reason why I was always unsuccessful in the gym is because I was, my goal was to get to look good for summer, so when I looked good or summer ended, my why was gone. And I, and I was, and it was a cycle that just repeated every single year, 'cause-

   27. AGDr Alex George46:21

       I think most of us feel that.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett46:23

       Yeah.

   29. AGDr Alex George46:23

       I mean, most of us have been there and done that, haven't we?

   30. SBSteven Bartlett46:25

       But your point there was the thing that cured it was the self-awareness-
6. 56:20 – 1:15:20

   Comfort Zones, Worthwhile Struggle And Redefining Success

   1. SBSteven Bartlett56:20

      your thoughts, your, your underlying reasons why you're thinking things, maybe j- thinking of pursuing things. And in a world where there is this constant whispering, this external whispering, which is saying, "You should be an influencer. You should be a YouTuber."

   2. AGDr Alex George56:35

      (laughs) .

   3. SBSteven Bartlett56:35

      That's the ... People will love you more if you're a millionaire.

   4. AGDr Alex George56:38

      Yeah. (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett56:38

      Y- and that is, we're exposed to that every hour of every day, no matter where we look, this external thing telling you what your purpose is-

   6. AGDr Alex George56:45

      Yeah.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett56:45

      ... what the best purpose is.

   8. AGDr Alex George56:46

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett56:47

      And we know that, as you were saying, purpose is subjective.

   10. AGDr Alex George56:49

       Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett56:49

       Mine's different from yours. But the world has a very clear idea-

   12. AGDr Alex George56:53

       Yeah.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett56:53

       ... of what the best purpose is.

   14. AGDr Alex George56:55

       It's a very good point. It's very interesting. It's a very interesting thought.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett56:57

       And that, and this is why I, I'm such a big advocate of this, like, interrogation.

   16. AGDr Alex George57:01

       Mm-hmm.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett57:01

       In fact, that's what's, it's cured, it's, it saved me in my life, because 18 years old, I want ... My diary, it said, "Range Rover, hot girlfriend-"

   18. AGDr Alex George57:10

       (laughs)

   19. SBSteven Bartlett57:10

       "... a million pounds before I'm 20."

   20. AGDr Alex George57:11

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett57:11

       Literally said-

   22. AGDr Alex George57:12

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett57:12

       "... a million pounds before I'm 25. Range Rover Sport."

   24. AGDr Alex George57:15

       Yeah, yeah.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett57:15

       That, those were my goals in life, came from a place of insecurity, obviously. I was, therefore I was susceptible to that whispering-

   26. AGDr Alex George57:20

       Yeah.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett57:20

       ... telling me what the best purpose and the way to ... Millionaire is the, the way to happiness is. Um, and, but without that interrogation you described, you will go with that voice because it's fucking loud.

   28. AGDr Alex George57:30

       Mm-hmm, yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett57:31

       Right? So there has to be a counter voice. And by putting it on paper, you're really attacking that external narrative which is, w- threatens to lead you astray, right?

   30. AGDr Alex George57:40

       Yeah. And I, I think it's, it's that idea, like you said. Every ... Life is kind of, all that you've got in, in, in- influences within your life, like friends and family, they have common beliefs, what your mom wanted you to do or whatever, and that directs you. Then, as you say, you've got this massive, uh ... It's loud and quiet, and that's the problem.

Episode duration: 2:05:53