Dr Alex George: My Hardest Day in A&E, Family Suicide & Finding TRUE Purpose. | E89

Dr Alex George 0:00 I've gone from 200 followers on Instagram to one million in, in nine weeks. I just had tasted the failure so much that I wanted that success. One of the biggest things was going back to, to work. You know, I went back to A&E. I am working in a position where I'm in the resus department of a very busy hospital in A&E in London. The mortality rate with COVID is around 1%. I am seeing that percentage of people who are the sickest who are in the hospital. I could hear in his voice instantly that something really bad happened. And I just said straightaway, like, "Who's, who's died?" It was weird. The whole world, like, closed in. And I can't explain, and it sounds really dramatic, but it was like almost a spotlight came onto me in that moment and I was like, "No. It can't be." I just couldn't believe it. That's the thing about suicide or, you know, when these things happen, it can happen o- out of nowhere and for everyone around that person, it is that guilt that you carry, I think, forever. Ask yourself honestly when is the last time you genuinely sat down and thought about what you want to do in life? What actually is your purpose? What makes you happy? And if you haven't done it in the last year or so, do it. We had a phone call again and she said, "It's back." And I went, "What do you mean?" And she said, "The cancer's back." What do you say to someone who is dying in the next couple of weeks? What can you say? A lot of it's non-verbal. You have a hug and you just share that moment, don't you? But when you walk out of that room, it's like, "Wow, like, I'm not seeing her again." (piano music)

Steven Bartlett 1:26 (instrumental music) Dr. Alex George. You may know him from Love Island. You may know him as one of the most well-known A&E doctors in our country, or you may know him as a government advisor to youth mental health, appointed by Boris Johnson last year. Alex knows a whole lot about happiness, about the things that make us unhappy, and about how we should be living if you want to live a truly fulfilling life. In this conversation, you'll come to realize that we are so far away from how we should be living, and that in order to get there, we might have to redesign the entirety of the society we live in. That's a belief that I have. This conversation energized me, it inspired me, it brought tears to my eyes. It gave me absolutely everything. And again, if there's a reason why I started this podcast, it's this conversation. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music) Alex, I, um, read a ton about you over the last, uh, couple of weeks, months, um, since you've sort of risen into the, the public eye. And, uh, one of the things that I really wanted to understand before, and I, I tend to start here with most of my guests, is I want to understand what it was from your childhood that made you the man you are today and what those significant moments were in your view.

Dr Alex George 2:55 Wow. That's a, that's a deep question to dive straight into.

Steven Bartlett 2:59 (laughs) .

Dr Alex George 2:59 Uh, let's, let's get in there. Um, well, I mean, look, I, I was brought up in ... Born and brought up in, in West Wales. Um, I lived, uh, on a little small holding. My parents, not farmers actually. Uh, often (laughs) people assume they have a farming background. My dad, um, a policeman. My mum, uh, worked in a bank. Um, and I had quite a, I think a quiet upbringing, you know, in the countryside. Two brothers, two younger brothers. Um, school life for me, I think was up and down. You know, I was bullied quite a lot at school. A little bit in primary school, more, more so in secondary school. Um, but I think as I grew up, I was naturally, I think probably innately as probably as well as my environment that I was in, I was introverted or became an introvert. Um, I know there's a lot of conversation about are you born that way, is it you're molded that way. I think probably a bit of both for me. Um, and I think, you know, when I was at school and, and as I was growing up, I think my, my parents were a, a big influence on my life. I think they instilled a lot of the values that I have. My mum was a big, big believer in that you should, you know, go out there and try and add value to people around you in the world. And their focus was around what you achieve in terms of that rather than necessarily being, trying to, like, be really successful, make loads of money, or, or whatever. And I think that instilled in me that sense of I want to do good, or try. You know? I'm not sitting here thinking, you know, well, I have the same ... You know, I love cars, I love all these different things as well. (laughs) I'm not saying I'm, you know, just trying to be some kind of save-the-world person. But I had that kind of general thing that I'd like to go out there and do something good if I could. Um, and I think when I was about 13, 14, I, I had been a bit interested in science. I liked, you know, uh, I liked the idea of, um, working in a, in a career or going into a career that had, um, you know, a sense of teamwork, a, a purpose, uh, which might sound a bit odd as an introvert, but, you, you know, I still wanted to be a s- part of a movement, if you like. And that's why medicine kind of appealed to me. So, um, I started kind of watching early shows of, like, the equivalent to 24 Hours in A&E, um, back in the day and really, really kind of thought, "Oh, it'd be amazing to be an A&E doctor. The excitement, the adrenaline. That'd be so awesome.I I love that idea of, you know, using science and medicine to save people." And I just started working towards that goal, really. Um, and, uh, I'd say that, again, school wasn't that easy for me for various reasons. Um, I know now that I'm dyslexic. I didn't know that then. I didn't know it at school, didn't know it at university. But I really struggled with my written work and stuff. And I was very frustrated actually at school a lot of the time. Um, I also had a very short attention span. Um, when I was in primary school, I was put into a special needs class for a long time because, um, well, I don't know, I think I, I, I had a short attention span. Maybe they were concerned about me. (laughs) I don't really know why, um, that was a concern. My mum actually went into school and said, "Actually, Alex is quite bright. You know, I think he'll be fine." Went back into the normal classroom and we kind of continued fr- from, from there. Um, in secondary school, again, struggled a bit with the written work.And actually when I, um, when I applied to- to med school the first time around, and I did all the interviews, got my place, I actually missed out on my, um, grades of, uh, uh, grade A in my chemistry by two marks, um, which cost my place at med school, which was actually one of the most painful moments of my life. And I think really, really a defining moment, um, because, uh, the school I was in, I wasn't in a great... yeah, I'm not gonna say horrible school. It was a perfectly fine school, but I wouldn't say it was like a really, really high achieving school. It was a state school, um, no one I think had done medicine for a couple of years, a good few years potentially. Everyone's excited about this idea we've got a student going, um, and there was a kind of everyone waiting for me to kind of open with results, and I was like, "Yeah, I've got two A's and a B, or three A's and a B. Brilliant, I'm really s- glad about that. But sadly, my two marks means that I can't go to med school." And I think that was a really defining moment for me. I th- that was kind of my first feeling of failure in a way. And I think all of that, all of that has come together to kind of mold my attitude, I think, to life and to kind of working hard, to wanting to achieve, to kind of appreciating success

Dr Alex George 7:00 when you have it.

Steven Bartlett 7:01 You said you were bullied in school. What for?

Dr Alex George 7:04 Uh, I grew very tall very quickly. I was very skinny. Um, I always had quite a bit of acne and stuff when I was younger. Um, and I think, but mainly actually, the main reason I think I was bullied was 'cause I was sensitive. I am sensitive as a person, um, and I think things would get to me probably more so than I noticed my friends or other people around me. And I think that, sadly, sensitivity attracts some, you know, bullies at times, you know. When- at the moment doing a massive campaign with, uh, Number 10 and the Diana Award around bullying and tackling that, and a lot of the young people I speak to have experienced the same. You know, sensitivity sadly attracts that. But it's odd, because now I look back and think, uh, you know, at the time, I thought that was a real weakness. But now I see it as a real strength, and I think my sensitivity has allowed me to be, uh, a better doctor. Uh, I think my- uh, uh, my ability to have empathy on my patients. I read people very well. I understand when I'm in a team, you know, even now, whether it's, uh, you know, in the hospital or the team that I'm working with, or kind of from a management perspective, or whether it's people working, you know, working with people at Number 10, I read people very well. I understand people, and that allows me to get the best outta people. But back then, it was a real target for bullies, I think.

Steven Bartlett 8:16 Mm-hmm. And obviously as you've, you know, you've spoken about at length, that sensitivity, I guess, is incredibly conducive with having positive mental health.

Dr Alex George 8:24 Yeah. I- I- I- I th- I think so. I think it's, it's about, you know, when you're talking about, um, being an introvert and things, and being sen- uh, being sensitive, they're not necessarily, uh, uh, mutually exclusive or necessarily come together. But I- I- I do think that it's about learning to... learning what you have and how to use that to your- y- use your strengths, you know, turn them into your strengths. I saw that as a big weakne- weakness, whereas now I see it as a great strength. And- and I think sometimes obviously growing up, you're unaware of what's good or bad about you physically, or, you know, in terms of your personality types. And sometimes the things that you kind of very harden yourself about when you're younger, like being sensitive, I'm now quite glad of.

Steven Bartlett 9:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 9:01 Even though now, of course, it still leaves me open (laughs) . I mean-

Steven Bartlett 9:04 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 9:04 ... you know how it is being, you know, um, known in the, uh, public eye, whatever. I hate that phrase, but you- you, yeah, I think it's an understood one. Um, it obviously opens you up because you're open to criticism a lot. And especially now with the work that I'm doing in the mental health space, it's- it's tough, and there's a lot of people in the political space, people watching what's happening, who, uh, will criticize you, um, you know, and- and that is not easy. But you learn to deal with it, and you- you build a bit of a thicker skin as well, I think.

Steven Bartlett 9:33 Have you learned to deal with it? 'Cause as you say, one point something million followers on Instagram, 1.9 million followers on Instagram-

Dr Alex George 9:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 9:37 ... or whatever it is. Um, that's a lot of people. Probabilistically, there's gonna be a bunch of them in there that, you know-

Dr Alex George 9:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:43 ... they just wanna ruin your day.

Dr Alex George 9:45 You know, it's funny because out of all the things I've had, I've had the- the- the full works of death threats and all this kind of stuff particularly, you know, the anti-vax and- and things like that we've been recently months and stuff. That doesn't bother me at all, funny enough. I don't mind that. And people can call me ugly or they can say I look a certain way or, you know, they can call me what they want, um, in that sense. And it doesn't bother me too much, to be honest. I've really been able to kind of... even though that was the kind of stuff that bothered me when I was younger, I'm very resilient to that now. What I think I'm more sensitive to now is when people kind of criticize the things that I'm working on that really matters to me, particularly the stuff around the mental health space, you know. When... I've been actually wor- been working in this space for- for a good few years before I even moved

Narrator 10:26 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 10:27 ... to the... before 2018 when I was on Love Island, and e- even before all that, I was really, you know, actively working with the- the charities. I was also, um, you know, passionate advocate in my space in A&E, we see a huge amount of mental health. I mean, a hu- one of the big misconceptions about A&E is we just see, you know, injuries, cuts, and bruises, and heart attacks and things. At least 30% of our workload relates to mental health, and I s- I think it's probably higher than that in reality. Um, and- and I've really worked in that space. But obviously, you know, since I was appointed Youth Mental Health Ambassador, since sadly my brother passed away last year, which kind of led to me focusing even more and I guess the attention on it, which led to the appointment, it's tough sometimes when people go, "Well, oh, you, you know, you got 80 million for mental health support teams at school. Why didn't you get 200? You know, you've let us down you didn't get 200 million." It's very hard, you know, and it, it's, when you, especially when I go, I'm very, I'm naturally a very optimistic and positive person, you know. When I came to the role, I was in the role, and I was in it for about two or three weeks when we got the 80 million quid. That's a lot of money. You know, at a time in a pandemic where the government's pretty strapped, we've spent a load of money, I'm not just saying it's just me, we've w- worked as a... there's other people within the, with the group and, and the Number 10 and outside that worked on this. But I would, I think it's fair to say I was a big steerer on that happening. And then someone goes, "Oh, you didn't get enough. You've let us down. What you've done is terrible." You know, "You shouldn't be there. Why are you in this role?" Not easy, um, but I always go back to it. And I think at the time when it came out, there was a huge... and I should say this, I have 95% amount of s- uh, of support has been unbelievable. It's always the 5% or the 1% or whatever that they get to a little bit. But, you know, now I've gone back to the idea of, well, actually, what are my values? What matters to me? And I go, "Well, actually, I believe that I am making...... you know, at least if, even if it's a millimeter of difference, I'm doing something, I'm doing something positive. And that keeps me going, and that's what stops me becoming down, I guess, from, from the kind of hate, if you like.

Steven Bartlett 12:17 Are you, are you a confident person?

Dr Alex George 12:20 No, I don't think so. Um, I'm confident, um... Ah, that's a good question. No, I'm not. I don't think so. Not inherently confident. I think I'll always... If you put me in a, in a, in a party, if we were at a swanky party in New York that you might attend or whatever (laughs) before the pandemic-

Steven Bartlett 12:37 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 12:37 ... um, I'd probably be the guy in the corner quietly chatting to one or two people, you know? And just, I wouldn't, I would certainly avoid center of attention, classic kind of introvert in that sense. But I, even though I'm not confident, I do think I'm very resilient and I think I'm very determined, and I think that helps me a lot. Where confidence lacks sometimes, my determination I think pushes through.

Steven Bartlett 12:59 I mean, it, uh, uh, y- uh, it kind of begs the question, and I'm, I'm sure, you know, you're probably sick of people inquiring about this apparent contradiction, which is not a confident person, in your own definition of confidence, um, and yet when that Love Island researcher comes knocking on your Instagram when you have 200 followers and says, "Do you want to be, be on one of the biggest shows in the world-

Dr Alex George 13:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 13:22 ... topless?" (laughs)

Dr Alex George 13:23 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 13:26 Like, one of the biggest shows in the country topless, you were like, "Sure." (laughs)

Dr Alex George 13:31 Right. Well, I mean, uh, this, the reason that happened was... Look, my, when I was at university, I, I, and, and I loved my time at university. I was, uh, mostly, and I'll come and talk about, a little bit about a time that wasn't so good maybe in a little bit. But on the whole, pretty, pretty good time. Um, but in my second year at uni, one of my very, very good friends, Freya Barlow, who was... And it's, it's annoying 'cause sometimes you hear, and I, I don't mean this in any disrespect, obviously you hear people talking about someone that's passed and, and everyone goes, "Oh, they're amazing. They do this and they do this and that." But honestly, like Freya was the most amazing person. She started like two charities even by her second year in med school. She spent her summers vaccinating kids and, you know, and, and, and abroad and going to Africa, and just doing like really amazing work. And very sadly, you know, well, I actually remember one week, it was towards the wintertime, I'm trying to remember, towards the wintertime, I said, "Freya, you've got some bruises on your arm." I mean, "Are you all right?" She said, "Oh, it's a bit... Yeah, a bit odd, I've got a few bruises. I'm actually gonna see the doctor," I think it was the next day or the day after. Anyway, a couple of days later, we had a text, um, uh, in the group saying, "We need to go for dinner tonight and talk to you guys." Thought, "This is hard." So we went to, went to dinner and she sat us down and, and said, "Look, you know, these bruises that I've had, I went to the doctor, had blood tests taken. Next day, rushed into hospital. I've got leukemia." You know, she had acute myeloid leukemia, which is a very, very serious, serious form of leukemia. And to put it into context, it differs between people, but it can be a matter of short weeks from being diagnosed to passing away if you don't have treatment really quickly. So it's one of the most aggressive and, uh, nasty cancers that you can have. Um, so it was a huge shock to all of us. And she l- quite literally went to dinner, and the next morning straight into isolation in the hospital to have nuclear chemotherapy, basically, like really, really strong chemotherapy. She was in there for a huge length of time, many, many months, um, and, you know, it, it was really hard to watch her, you know, hair, h- hair f- falling out, you know, losing weight, you know, swelling in her arms and feet and things like that from, from the chemo. And she was always so positive throughout the whole thing. Her positivity was unbelievable, and how relentless she was, um, and even to the point where she's actually... You know, the university said, "Look, take time out clearly. You know, we want you to recover and have time out." She said, "No, I want to do my tests, I want to do my exams." She sat her exams in isolation, in an isolation cubicle in the hospital, which is just unbelievable and shows her resilience. Um, anyway, after a long period of time, I think it was six months or more, um, she actually had a bone marrow, uh, transplant, uh, from, it was, I think it was someone in Germany, um, that gave her the bone marrow. And she came out the hospital and we were like, "Yes, you know, she's getting through this." Um, and she even ran a marathon, something silly, like a month or so, a couple of months after, afterwards to raise money for leukemia research, you know? Straight, we were like, "Just chill out a bit." No, she's like, "No, I'm straight back to charity work." Fine. So then running into the next winter, um, we had a phone call again, and she said, "It's back." And I went, "What do you mean?" And she went, "The, the cancer's back." And she was told she had a matter of weeks to live because she'd had the bone marrow transplant, it was now at the point where there was basically nothing you could do. So we threw her a big ball, uh, and a party to kind of, kind of celebrate her life to that point. Um, and we all kind of said our goodbyes. We went, I went to her house actually to say, uh, goodbye to her, um, and one of the things she said to me, before she pa- well, she passed away, uh, g- like a week or so later, it wasn't very long, uh, she said, "Alex, you're an introvert, you're somet- you're, I think you've got a lot of talent in terms of what you do and I'm very proud of the things you do, and I think you, you're, you know, you've got a lot of potential in your life, but you sometimes shy away, and I want you to go out there and say yes to things, put yourself in comf- in, out of your comfort zone." 'Cause I think it's fair to say often in life, I just keep myself in that comfort zone. She said, "Put yourself out of that comfort zone. You know, say yes to things. Live your life. You know, I'm in a position now where my, I have to stop my life here. I want you to live yours." And that, I think, is, uh, a l- very long-winded explanation, but that is why I went on that show. 'Cause I actually was very resistant to it the whole time, and even to now the, the execs will say I'm the one person that didn't want to go on the show, you know? But I was like, I almost felt like I don't know what I believe and what you don't believe. I was like, I was like, "What would Freya say?" She said, "Get on that show and do it." And that's why I did it.

Steven Bartlett 17:38 I can't imagine what it's like having to go and say goodbye to a friend like that.

Dr Alex George 17:43 Um, and, and, uh, uh, it's so difficult, and, and at that, at that age, you know, only 22 or 23 or something, whatever I was, it's, it's very odd. It's very odd to have a conversation with someone, and like we've, I've, we've experienced, everyone's experienced grief, uh, at some point, and, but this was the only, and still is the only time I've been sat with someone knowing it was the last conversation. It's a very...... odd situation because what do you say to someone who is dying in the next couple of weeks? And they're so young and you had all this hope about them getting better. Um, but, and I remember, it's almost like I go back to that moment, uh, so intensely because in that moment I was like, "This is the last chance I'm gonna speak to this person. I need to capture every second of this." So it's almost like hardwired into my brain. Um, but I really appreciated what she said. And I, to this day, even now, you know, I was on Sky News this morning and stuff, which is, again, miles out my comfort zone, never, uh, you know, I'm g- I'm becoming more used to these things now, but miles out my comfort zone, none of that stuff would happen if it wasn't for what she said to me, I don't think. Um, I'd have just continued staying within that comfort zone, not pushing myself, um, and protecting myself in a way, I guess.

Steven Bartlett 18:52 What did you say to her on that day?

Dr Alex George 18:55 I told her that I loved her, um, and that I was so glad that I knew her, um, and how grateful I was really that, uh, that she was my friend. Um, and, you know, what I didn't tell her, what I said to other people was how cruel the world can be sometimes. You know, you got someone who's gonna be a doctor and we want an amazing doctor as well, you know, uh, not just doctor, but an amazing one. Um, and such a kind, genuine person, like how

Dr Alex George 19:20 cruel can it be to happen to that person? But obviously in that moment, you don't wanna say that. You know, she, uh, she... You just wanna instill that feeling of love and appreciation for them. Um, but it was hard. What can you say? A lot of it's non-verbal. You have a hug and you just share that moment, don't you? But when you walk out that room, it's like, "Wow, like I'm not seeing her again." Very odd.

Steven Bartlett 19:42 Very difficult.

Dr Alex George 19:44 Very odd. Very difficult. But, you know, and I'm very grateful and I know posi- uh, and I've taken it straight into a darker place there, but on a real positive, you know, I feel that the people around us could just, do, have, can have such an impact on our lives and, like, so much light has come from her life because of that. I continue to talk about it as much possible. Uh, you know, and, and we all celebrate her and, and her life. And I hope that I have taken a bit of her with me to do some of the things I'm doing now. And I hope that she'd be proud of some of it.

Steven Bartlett 20:11 And you were, you were working in, uh, sort of emergency medicine before the Love Island experience began. So it beg- begs the question, how did you get into that if you weren't able to go to medical school?

Dr Alex George 20:20 Well, so, so basically I'd applied at the time, if we go back to when I missed my grades, um, and this is where I think I learnt about failure, which I think is very important. I'm talking about success, but failure's incredibly important. Um, I failed by two marks, so obviously absolutely gutted, didn't have my grades. What made it worse was me and my friend were going to Liverpool together. He was gonna do, go to dental school, I was gonna go to med school.

Steven Bartlett 20:40 Oh God.

Dr Alex George 20:40 Best buddies all the way through. Like, "Can't wait." And obviously like, "Oh mate, sorry. You enjoy yourself."

Steven Bartlett 20:45 Freshest week out.

Dr Alex George 20:45 Yeah, gutted. Um, so I had to apply again. I had... Well, I had... Actually I remember I sat down with my mom and, um, she was very upset as you, as you can imagine. And I said, "Look, mom, it's fine. I'm gonna apply again. I'll get the grades, I'll do the interviews, do the tests you've gotta do for the application. It's fine, I'll get in." Um, and I believed that I would. I was like, "I'm not gonna give up." I corrected a few sentences on my coursework that I needed to correct (laughs) to get the marks back up. I reapplied again, did the interviews, and I got my place. And I went-

Steven Bartlett 21:11 Does that sound like a guy that lacks confidence?

Dr Alex George 21:14 Uh, (laughs) I don't know. I think, I think r- I think resi- that resil- resilience and confidence are probably separate things. I think I, that was the f- one of the first times I really faced properly in my life where I'd really failed and I had to kind of ask myself the question, "Do I give up?" And I was like, "I am not giving up. I'm going." And I think it was like... And, but I think that did give me confidence. I think if we're talking about that, it's like that resilience of going, I was like, "Wow." When I got the place again and I went to med school, I did feel more confident about that. I might not be confident to walk topless (laughs) in front of people, like when my knees were shaking walking out on Love Island, but I, I was more confident in myself that I was resilient. And when I went to med school, the great thing was, and I think this is why failure is so important, A, I knew how painful it is to miss, nearly miss out on something that means a lot to you. But secondly, I really appreciate it when I've actually succeeded. So when I was at med school, I just appreciated it so much. I loved every moment of it, you know. I, I worked hard, you know, and I, m- even though I nearly missed out on going, I came out with a distinction, the top kind of two or three in the year. You know, uh, a few people each year get a distinction. So I, I ended up in, doing well. But I don't think that's 'cause I'm particularly better than a- any one of the other exams or whatever, I just had tasted the failure so much that I wanted that success. And I think that has been a really good life lesson. You know, I still fail today. We all fail, right, all the time. But I know that I can pick myself up and I will always get there.

Steven Bartlett 22:35 Psst. Do you wanna come in and watch this podcast live from behind the scenes? If you do, all you have to do is hit the subscribe button. And now that the world is opened up, you'll be behind the scenes as many of our subscribers have been. I can't wait to meet you. That's part of what inspires you to try things outside of your, the sort of circumference of your comfort zone, is knowing that even if, you know, the worst possible outcome occurs, you, you've been here before, you survived the storm-

Dr Alex George 23:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:01 ... and, and it worked out in the end. And I think even for me now in my life when, you know, 'cause we're all, our comfort zones, uh, are all subjective to-

Dr Alex George 23:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:09 ... our, our experiences in life. So I have a comfort zone too (laughs) you know what I mean?

Dr Alex George 23:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:12 People at, people who think I've achieved a lot in like my business career or whatever, I still have a comfort zone. There's still this thing in my head that says, "Steve, this is what you're capable of." Right?

Dr Alex George 23:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:19 And so even when I step outside of mine, the thing that I'm always relying on in the hardest moments of my life is that hindsight of, you know, we've, we've been here before. We've got through this.

Dr Alex George 23:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:30 And it, and it... And you gotta have faith, even if it doesn't feel like it, even if your emotions are telling you otherwise, you gotta have faith and trust yourself.

Dr Alex George 23:35 Well, you learn every time you extend that boundary of your comfort zone, you've got a step further.

Steven Bartlett 23:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 23:40 I mean, what, what are the mo- A, what you're doing at the moments outside of your kind of-

Steven Bartlett 23:43 Me.

Dr Alex George 23:43 ... comfort zone.

Steven Bartlett 23:43 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 23:43 What are you, what are you doing that's kind of pushing you? Because we're all, we're... I think it's important to share because-

Steven Bartlett 23:48 Sure.

Dr Alex George 23:48 ... people will look at you and think, "Oh, this guy's so successful in everything."

Steven Bartlett 23:50 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 23:50 But we all are pushing that boundary, right?

Steven Bartlett 23:52 Yeah. So a couple of things. The first thing is obviously Dragon's Den, which I've, you know, I've done podcasting before, but I control this.

Dr Alex George 23:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:57 And there's, you know, uh, there's not four point something million people watching. I mean, we've got close to it with time, but, um, I control this. So, and I know how this works.

Dr Alex George 24:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:07 This is my domain. Dragon's Den, when you're sat with five panelists, the one on your left's been there 20 years, the one on your right's been there 15-

Dr Alex George 24:13 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 24:14 ... and there's massive s- cameras swinging, there's this lift door, booh, swings open and all of this. And then you're, you know, all of the, all of the dynamics to consider trying to learn, trying to un- trying to learn how to, um-

Dr Alex George 24:26 Hm.

Steven Bartlett 24:26 ... play my role in this show, while also trying to analyze the business-

Dr Alex George 24:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:29 ... and decide whether I want to give my money (laughs) to this business within a short period of time, it's a lot. Um, that's where it comes in. DJing as you can see over there. Um, I'm learning to-

Dr Alex George 24:38 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 24:38 ... DJ and I'm gonna do a show this year.

Dr Alex George 24:40 That's sick.

Steven Bartlett 24:41 So outside my comfort zone.

Dr Alex George 24:42 Where you doing it? I'll, I'll come through.

Steven Bartlett 24:44 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 24:44 I love that. I'll stand in the corner-

Steven Bartlett 24:46 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 24:46 ... at the back corner out of the way so no one notices me-

Steven Bartlett 24:48 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 24:48 ... but I'll appreciate my part. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 24:51 Yeah. ............................

Narrator 24:51 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 24:52 Um, this, the show we're doing in, I think it's, uh, 12, 12 days away. There's, you know, a thousand people coming to the, the Albert Hall. It's musical-

Dr Alex George 25:00 Amazing.

Steven Bartlett 25:00 ... it's, I've written the whole thing, ch- chosen the music, 20 person choir, et cetera, et cetera.

Dr Alex George 25:04 Oh, sick.

Steven Bartlett 25:04 Big show. Lo- and then my, I'll just, I don't wanna rattle on, but my last thing would be my business. So I started a company when I was twe- 20, grew it worth 300 million, you know, very interesting journey. Now I'm going like 10 times bigger and to play at a 10 times bigger level where you're trying to raise 200 million from the start-

Dr Alex George 25:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:23 ... and grow multi-billion dollar company, it requires a completely different set of skills. And again, you feel in some r- areas like an imposter.

Dr Alex George 25:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:31 But I don't give a fuck because I've always felt this way.

Dr Alex George 25:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:34 I've always felt like this, like I've always felt like... This sounds crazy to say. That's how I felt. Everything I've said my whole life sounded kind of crazy to me-

Dr Alex George 25:44 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:44 ... until it wasn't.

Dr Alex George 25:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:46 So when I say crazy things these days, again, it's that hindsight of me going, "Well everything else I sound, said sounded crazy."

Dr Alex George 25:51 And it worked out, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:51 And it worked out. So. (laughs)

Dr Alex George 25:52 It's, it's just l- you just learn, don't you, from your experiences that you, even though it's, it's a different uncomfortable zone that you're in-

Steven Bartlett 25:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 25:59 ... you got through your last uncomfortable zone and you came out stronger from it.

Steven Bartlett 26:03 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 26:04 And even, even if, and that's important to say, even if you failed at that time, you still survived it, you're still here, you're still breathing, you're still get, you got up and you're going again. And that's important. That's the important point from it. And I, it's interesting hearing that because obviously I'm starting my business, uh, Prescribed-

Steven Bartlett 26:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 26:16 ... which is very much smaller business, the bath bombs that we're doing, self-care, um, which is very exciting. But that's, that's, uh, that's a, uh, very uncomfortable zone for me. I mean, you know, I have surrounded myself with a team that have experience in different areas. I, and I recognize that it is an area that is new to me, but even with the right people around you, it's, it's quite scary.

Steven Bartlett 26:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 26:34 So, um, you know, but it's exciting as well. I, I've l- I think that's a big thing I've learned. I've learned to enjoy that feeling of being uncomfortable. My mom has a great saying actually, and she, she said this for many, many years and I love it. "Get comfortable being uncomfortable."

Steven Bartlett 26:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 26:49 I think that's a really great point. I mean, you never are quite, I mean, it doesn't, it's an imperfect statement, but it, it does... I, I kind of get that. It's like in-

Steven Bartlett 26:57 Oh, I think it's so perfect.

Dr Alex George 26:57 It's like in hospital, for example, right? It's, it's like in the hospital, okay, you start as a first year medical student, right? And you've never taken blood in your life. I don't know if... you know, to get the needle into the vein, taking a blood test, right? Honestly, my hand's shaking when I had to, to do the first blood test in real person. I thought, "No, I'm out. I can't do this. I'm not made for it. I'm an imposter. What am I doing here? Get me out of here." And then, you know, you do it 10 times, like, "Oh, that's, that's fine."

Steven Bartlett 27:22 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 27:23 And then you build up, and then the first time, you know, when you're say a fifth year med student and you are doing your first CPR on a cardiac arrest patient helping out in resus in the, in the A&E department, like, "Oh my God, this is too much. What am I doing here?" You do it a few times, it's fine. And you just, you just, it just, you, every margin you gain, you get better at something. And, but it always happens. I mean, ev- even consultants say, who have been doing it, been studying for, between study and working for 15, 20 years, and they say the first day of the consultant, they feel like their first day at med school again.

Steven Bartlett 27:52 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 27:53 You know?

Steven Bartlett 27:53 I, I think- There's something really interesting there, so I want to ask you a question on that, that taking the blood from the veins as a junior doctor, how would you feel in terms of fulfillment? A- and I'm, this is, I'm totally leading you-

Dr Alex George 28:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:04 ... to a place that I wanna d-

Dr Alex George 28:05 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:05 ... another, ask another question. But how would you feel in terms of fulfillment if you were a junior doctor, they said, "Okay. Today, Alex, we're gonna take blood from a vein." And then you had to do that exact same thing for 20 years. So first day you're shitting it, "Oh my god. No, no, no. Shaking hands, da, da, take the blood." Second day, little bit more comfortable. Third day, little bit more comfortable with it. How would you feel in 20 years time-

Dr Alex George 28:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:28 ... doing the same thing every day?

Dr Alex George 28:29 Yeah. I think, I think you, you need to f- I think self-development is very important and feeling that you're adding layers to your skillset or whatever it, it... We're talking about medicine here, but it can be anything in life. I think that variation and variety is very important and feeling like you're pushing... Uh, basically you're feeling like you're, you're pushing yourself.

Steven Bartlett 28:45 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 28:46 And I think that's the idea of... 'Cause at the end of the day, um, the struggle of life and the challenges in life, getting over them is what gives you that sense of reward. If you don't have a struggle, if there isn't any struggle, if life was completely easy, if you woke up with 50 million quid in the bank and there are no challenges at all, you'd be very bored actually, I think. You know, and I enjoy... There's always a balance because you're bal- it's all about balance. You don't want too much struggle-

Steven Bartlett 29:08 Yeah. (laughs)

Dr Alex George 29:08 ... because that's... Or too much hardship and if I were, if A&E was making me cry every-

Steven Bartlett 29:12 Yeah. (laughs)

Dr Alex George 29:13 ... show clearly, I wouldn't wanna be there. But yeah, I think that it's good to have that increasing mounting challenge, you know?

Steven Bartlett 29:19 And that's exactly what I was alluding to, which is that that worthwhile struggle is achieved by stepping out s- being uncomfortable-

Dr Alex George 29:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:27 ... as your mother said. So we know that worthwhile struggle is so critically important to being fulfilled in life, as you've said. And that worthwhile struggle, like showing up that first day or then advancing-

Dr Alex George 29:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:37 ... is achieved by being uncomfortable. So if, if we reason from there, we can say, being uncomfortable is the reason why you achieve worthwhile struggle, which is the reason why you achieve fulfillment. And this is part of what I was, I was alluding to, which is people that avoid the uncomfortable piece, which is at the very start of that chain, then don't get the worthwhile fulfillment, which comes from the, the challenge. But also they stay in situations which are no longer serving them.

Dr Alex George 30:00 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:01 Relationships-

Dr Alex George 30:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:01 ... jobs. And that again-

Dr Alex George 30:03 Agreed.

Steven Bartlett 30:03 ... because they're like, "Oh my God, I can't..." Uncertainty of jumping off this cliff-

Dr Alex George 30:06 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:06 ... and going into uncertainty is just-

Dr Alex George 30:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:08 And then they, and then they have midlife crises and mental health challenges-

Dr Alex George 30:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:12 ... and so that's why I- I'm just so passionate-

Dr Alex George 30:14 It's, it's the whole idea around fearing less, I think. People are often... It's, I, and I, I love, um, psychology. I read a lot of, I, I've, I've read Power of Now, you know, The Secret, all the kind of classic ones, but I've, you know, I'm really into that kind of mindset theory. And I-... it, it, there are a lot of people who are very afraid that the next situation they might find themselves in will be more painful or difficult than their current situation. But in reality, often you find that the change you're gonna experience isn't as bad as you think it is.

Steven Bartlett 30:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 30:41 It's, it's the idea of, like, you know, the, the, the analogy of having a Ferrari on your drive, right? And you get your Ferrari in the first day, you're so excited about it and you think, "Oh my God, I'm gonna be, like, so happy about this car and this is gonna be..." So, every day we're so excited about it, it's gonna be incredible, I've got this massive house. But every day, that kind of, that, you return to the baseline level of happiness. What you're experiencing is pleasure, isn't it?

Steven Bartlett 31:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 31:01 Not necessarily fulfillment, it's a pleasure, and that will come down. Obviously, the Ferrari, after a certain amount of time, you might love it, and I love my cars but I'm not gonna be jumping up and down every morning every time I see the car.

Steven Bartlett 31:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 31:10 It's eventually gonna come back to the baseline. And equally, you know, you have people worry on the opposite end, say you're really, really worried about, I don't know, um, changing your job and you're really worried that you might, you know, you might start this new job and you're gonna be really bad at it and it's gonna be so difficult every day and, "Oh, I'm just not gonna be prepared," or whatever. And then you start the job and the first few days can be really scary and you might feel really uncomfortable and it's really challenging, but you will come back to that baseline of it being okay.

Steven Bartlett 31:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 31:33 And if you look at relationships, people worry, "Oh, I'm in this relationship. What if I break up with this relationship and the next one isn't as good or I'm not as happy or regret it? I think I've really or really messed this up."

Steven Bartlett 31:43 Yeah (laughs) .

Dr Alex George 31:43 "What have I done?" But actually, your fear, when they actually do it, they go, "Actually, it was fine."

Steven Bartlett 31:47 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 31:47 "I wasn't there meant to stay in that relationship, you know. I was actually staying there from a place of fear and fearing too much rather than going, well, actually, if you stand to reason, you know, my current situation is far from perfect, I don't wanna be in it,

Dr Alex George 32:00 why should the next situ- situation be any worse?"

Steven Bartlett 32:03 I, I completely agree with everything you're saying. In fact, I sent one of my best friends a quote last night that I'd written, um, because of his, the situation he was in.

Dr Alex George 32:10 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:10 And I think it kind of exemplifies what we're saying. I said, "If you want to avoid making the same mistakes twice, make more decisions based on your past memories and less decisi- decisions based on your current emotions." And what I was trying to say there is that in the moment, when you're in that relationship or you're in that toxic job situation, you'll, you'll be, um, uh, like, suffocated and, um, imprisoned by your own fear, um, of uncertainty or failure, or, "I'll never meet someone as good as this..."

Dr Alex George 32:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:34 ... or whatever it is, but you've always got through it. You've been in love. Like, with me-

Dr Alex George 32:39 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 32:39 ... I was convinced from the age of 12 that I was gonna marry Jasmine.

Dr Alex George 32:43 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 32:43 And then at 14, I was convinced it was Helen, and then at 16 I was c- like, do you know, I've always thought that this-

Dr Alex George 32:48 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 32:48 ... person was the one.

Dr Alex George 32:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:49 In the moment, I've always thought, "This is it." And look at me moving on to number seven and thinking, "This is it!" (laughs)

Dr Alex George 32:57 (laughs) It's, you, you kind of hold onto your current situation because w- ultimately, we always go, "Well, actually, my current situation I'm in, I'm not in pain. I've got food and water. I feel okay. It's not that terrible. What if the next situation, whatever that might be-"

Steven Bartlett 33:09 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 33:09 "... work or otherwise, life or others, what if that is worse than my current one?" We always fear the, fear the unknown. But it's the, it's like this, and I hope I'm quot- quoting the right, (laughs) the right genius. I think it was Einstein that said, um, you know, the, the, it's the, the definition of insanity is repeating the same action or it's roughly along the lines-

Steven Bartlett 33:28 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 33:28 ... of repeating the same action and expecting a different outcome. You know, if you, you know, one plus one is always gonna be two, so, you know, if you're n- if you're having that same outcome and frustrated with it, you have to change something in your equation to bring something different.

Steven Bartlett 33:39 Amen. We were talking about f- um, failure there, and, and you, and you know, that led us on to talk about university, and you, you, um, subtly said that there was a part of university which you didn't enjoy.

Dr Alex George 33:50 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I think, um, I don't think anyone in life lives an entire life of having just being happy all the time, everything's great, and having periods of being flat or sad or losing yourself. And I think my time for that up to date, uh, I think was probably at university. I was at my fourth year. Everything going great, study's going great. I was on for doing really well. Um, and I, I actually was based... So I went to university in Peninsula, which is extra in Plymouth, but we do placements all the way around that kind of peninsula, so-

Steven Bartlett 34:18 Extra in Plymouth. (laughs)

Dr Alex George 34:19 Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 34:20 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 34:20 Uh, and I, and I, I loved my time there. But I got sent down to Truro to, to hospital there, and I loved the hospital, the people, everyone was fantastic. But I was kind of away from friends. I was in a place that I just, I just felt quite isolated. And I actually suspect I'm probably just putting it on that as a place of reasoning. But for whatever reason, I just become quite flat and I lost interest in my exercise, stopped exercising. My studies even, like, I wasn't really working as much as I should have been. Sleep went out the window. I was staying up late, getting up, you know, getting up late. Eating bad. I just lost myself entirely. I became quite unhappy. And I kept really quiet about it. I didn't tell anyone 'cause I thought, "This is terrible." You know, 'cause if I'm gonna be a doctor I need to be like, really, really strong. Like, how can you be a caring professional if you can't take care of yourself? So I left it a long time, probably like six, seven months of feeling pretty damn miserable. Um, to the point where eventually I was like, "I need to do something." But I was like, "I can't speak to the med school 'cause they might think, this guy, we, we gotta have to hold him back or something, he can't be a doctor." When that's not true, and I actually look back and think that was a, you know... Sadly, that's a big part of the stigma around mental health, but that, that isn't true. But at the time I felt that way. So I called who, who, a lot of, a lot of people relate to this. What, what do you do in a situation of trouble? Called my mom. Uh, and I said... You know, it was a big outpouring of emotion. I was like, "This is, you know, this is what's happening. I feel dreadful." And she said, "Well, look, there's a few things we're gonna do. We're gonna talk every single day and start s- speaking about the thoughts and things you're having," 'cause I was beating myself up a lot and about insensitive and weak and all this stuff. I was like, "Let's talk about this stuff. And secondly, let's start getting you doing the things that you know that are good for you." You know, she was like, "You've stopped doing all the anchors in your life that keep you feeling good." She's pretty wise for someone who's not a doctor. You know, uh, she's a bank, works in the bank but very wise woman, clearly. Um, I'd like to think so. And she said, "Look, start doing those things again." So I thought, "Yeah, you're right. You know, she's... It makes sense." So, "I'll go for a walk every day so I get the actual light and the benefits of being outside in nature. Let's start exercising again." So I created an exercise routine. I was like, "I'm eating crap, eating rubbish food. Let's start cooking again and make my own food, uh, rather than just getting ready meals." Um, and, and I was like, "Let's, I'm not really connecting with people, so let's plan stuff." So I started making plans with my friends. Uh, and I also had an idea where I was like, "Well, actually, you know, to help me feel less isolated, let's call a different friend every day, some people I haven't spoke to for years, and just chat to them." And all these little things, all these micro changes added up within literally weeks to, like, transforming how I felt. I got my zest and vive back. I had my energy back. I was like, "I'm back to that kind of type A-"... you know, a happy, forceful person for, to kind of go out and really make the most of each day. And, and, and I think I've learned so much from that. And I've learned from that throughout, um, throughout my time post-university, but also I've learned about that in terms of what I think people kind of don't understand about health. And, you know, when I was a, when I was working at Lewisham Hospital, I still work there now in A&E, so many people that I see, so many patients come in and I realize that they've not been given the tools through education and school about understanding how to actually look after themselves. You know, we're taught so much at school about maths and English and history and whatever, but no one tells you about why sleep is actually so important to your productivity, your self-worth, your happiness. That sleep is not actually a, a, a state of just being sed- sed- sedated, you're actually in a creative space. The idea that, you know, nutrition can actually help you feel better, not just like, just for having a diet or whatever, that people kind of see it as. You know, the role of exercise. All these different things. And I'm like, "B- but these things actually do matter 'cause these things are not only keep you, keep you physically healthy, keep you mentally healthy as well." And that's where, you know, the book Live Well came from. I, I wrote that book because I felt those are the things that no one taught me in school. And even at med school, you know, we focus on anatomy, physiology, uh, and pathology, looking at diseases and treatments, but we didn't do enough, in my opinion, about these fundamental things around sexual health, physical health, uh, in terms of, you know, sleep, exercise, passion and purpose. You know, a big reason that we go to school r- surely is to find what our purpose and what we want to do in life, and no one kind of gives you any tools, I don't think, to figure out what that is. You know, I was lucky to find my kind of sense of purpose. I was... kind of stumbled upon it, you know, based on some of my interests and I was kind of lucky. Um, and I really felt that that, that those kind of bits, as you know, that's why I wrote that book. I felt that that is the stuff that I wish people had told me when I was younger, you know?

Steven Bartlett 38:35 So I've got a couple of points here. (clears throat) When you went through that phase in university, would you class- classify yourself as being depressed at that point?

Dr Alex George 38:42 I would look back now and say I was depressed. I had low energy. Um, my mood was poor. My sleep was disturbed. Uh, a lack of interest in my hobbies and stuff. There's plenty of kind of tick boxes for, for being in that category. As I said, I had mild depression at the time, mild to moderate depression.

Steven Bartlett 38:56 And you said there that, and this is, uh, 'cause it, I mean, it speaks volumes to me, uh, what you said after, which was that people w- what I heard was that people don't understand the full range of the causes of depression.

Dr Alex George 39:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:09 And I've sat here twice now with Johanna Hari. Uh, do you know Johanna Hari?

Dr Alex George 39:13 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:13 She wrote a book called-

Dr Alex George 39:14 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:14 ... Lost Connections?

Dr Alex George 39:15 Absolutely. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:15 And, um, I w- I went through the years, and I've said this before, but I went through the years not, not believing this idea that we were just being born broken.

Dr Alex George 39:22 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 39:22 And understanding that the only thing that's really changed in humans over the last, let's say, 20 years is the world we live in.

Dr Alex George 39:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:27 Um, and the way we live, right?

Dr Alex George 39:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:29 The way that society has conditioned us to live-

Dr Alex George 39:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:31 ... more lonely, as you've written about in this book. And I read about, um, uh, you know, less meaningful connections-

Dr Alex George 39:36 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 39:36 ... less purpose in our lives, less exercise. We're getting more stagnant-

Dr Alex George 39:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:39 ... over the last 50 years than ever before.

Dr Alex George 39:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:41 Um, and, uh, so my... one of the questions I was, I was planning on asking you today, but you kind of answered it there, but I'm gonna ask it again anyway, is, what are the biggest misconceptions about maintaining good mental health and/or what's causing bad mental health-

Dr Alex George 39:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:56 ... that you have, um, in your opinion?

Dr Alex George 39:59 Well, I think if you look at what humans are designed to do, we're designed to, uh, be ou- well, we, we should be outside mostly, you know, we, we will create shelters and things, but most of our day should be in natural light. Uh, we should be, uh, you know, going out and searching and foraging and finding our foo- food as part of a team, so usually in a family or a group, a clan-

Steven Bartlett 40:17 Tribal.

Dr Alex George 40:18 ... kind of, a tribe, to go out there and get your, to get your food. We're supposed to feel that sense of purpose within, within, within our, within our tribe. So someone who's generally a leader, there are people that help, it's people with different skills, but you feel a sense of belonging, uh, uh, to that tribe. We should be eating food that comes from the earth, that's not processed food, that we would, certainly wouldn't do as part of, uh, part of nature. We get plenty of exercise as part of our day, you know, with foraging, hunting, doing whatever, building. You look at modern life and s- and flip that round and go, a lot of us spend our times in boxes, inside, without any natural light, glued to phones, not connected with people, often feeling like we don't have our sense of purpose and not really understanding, you know, why we feel that,

Dr Alex George 41:00 that way. You know, a lot of the things in modern life are pulling us away from good quality sleep, giving us bad sleep. They're pulling us towards fast foods and processed foods, away from natural sources of, you know, good quality food that fuels our body. A- and if you look at it, all that, and you think about another way, it makes a lot of sense why people feel quite lost, they don't know why they feel a certain way. And I think we just need to kind of step back and go, "Let's educate." And this is why, you know, with the work I'm doing in the youth mental health role, I'm focused on education so much. Uh, you know, and we've made five, uh, wellbeing videos for this summer as part of the summer school program, which are gonna go out to all the schools in the UK. And we're looking at, we're looking at sleep, we're looking at exercise, we're looking at nutrition, we're looking at managing social media and what to do when you're not feeling good in yourself. And within those videos and within the toolkits we're giving, I'm hoping there's a lot of stuff in there that people will go, "Wow, like, I, I didn't realize that about sleep and why that's important or, you know, why I need to get s- natural light, why I need to get outside." So I think so much of that stuff comes together. I'm not saying that the cause of mental illness is always related to lifestyle. That is obviously not true. There's a huge amount out there that's, you know, to do with genetics and, and, and disease isn't... you can't blame lifestyle for all disease. But I do think it's a big part of it. And if you look at what happens when you go to your doctor and say, "I'm depressed. I need help." The first thing we look at is lifestyle. A- and we combine that with other treatments if needed, regardless of that disease. And actually, even when you're looking at severe forms of mental illness, the lifestyle factor will always remain really, really important because without that, I don't think the treatments can, can, can do it alone.

Steven Bartlett 42:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 42:33 It has to be a combination thing. But this is what... you know, and there's so many people out there, not necessarily depressed, but they're just low mood of just anhedonia. They just don't feel themselves. They're just a bit lost. And I think a lot of it comes back to the things I talk about in that book.

Steven Bartlett 42:45 I couldn't agree more. And when I... Because I agree so much-

Dr Alex George 42:48 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:49 ... I've, I've tried to figure out how one would, from their, you know, from their apartment here in Shoreditch, do something to help. And because it's such a fundamental issue about the way we've chosen to live our lives, you know, illuminated gr- glass screens to date, to order food, to move around, as you said, isolated, four white walls. These, like, you can't tear that down surely. So, I, like, we, it, I, I reflect and go, we would literally have to rethink the way we live our entire lives, the foundations in which our lives are built, in order to solve this problem. That's genuinely what I think. To, to truly solve this problem, we'd have to redesign our society.

Dr Alex George 43:28 I think so. I think we... And, and even, I think as a whole, I think that's a big part of the solution. But as an individual, if you're sitting within this spa- uh, you know, in, you're living in the world we're in now-

Steven Bartlett 43:38 Evolution.

Dr Alex George 43:38 ... right? You can't get rid of social media. It's part of our work. It's literally part of the, the mouthpiece of a lot of the stuff that we do, for example. You can't get rid of that, so what is the answer? It's about adapting, uh, and making sure that you are aware in your life of these principles, and thinking about how you can actually adapt your life to make sure you're encapsulating, uh, you're incorporating that. For example, stuff like, I know if I don't go for a walk each day and get natural light and just feel that I'm about in, around in nature, I get anxious. I, I feel a sense of just, like, being, uh, not at ease. So, I make sure every morning, I get up in the morning, first thing I do every day is go for a walk, out for a walk in nature. I move. It's great for productivity. I get great ideas sometimes when I'm thinking and walking. Some bad ones as well.

Steven Bartlett 44:18 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 44:18 But generally, just being out and about is brilliant for that.

Steven Bartlett 44:21 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 44:21 You know, I make sure that the end of each day, I g- again, get outside, I move, but also I do my exercise at the end of the day. It signifies the end of my, like, working day. You know, I plan things, meaningful connections with my friends and family now more than ever. Like, it's so easy just to chat on the phone or FaceTime. I'm like, now that we can more safely with the pandemic, you know, make time for the people around you. See them in person, do things with them in, in meaningful ways. Talking about sleep, you know, the whole, like, sleep when you're dead idea, and a lot of, I think, you know, you talk, you get to talk to obviously a lot of very successful, uh, business people, and sometimes the slightly negative side of the work, th- that, that life is not finding that balance of sleep. And I, and I know the things I'm judging as well, that can be difficult. But I, I really, really value and understand that if I don't have my eight hours sleep and good quality sleep, I'm not gonna be as productive. I won't actually be as creative, and I probably won't be as success- successful at the things I'm doing. So, it's just making those changes, you know, just n- just being aware. Once you're aware of a problem, you talked in an episode before about the... talked about, um, exercising between, uh, for the summer.

Steven Bartlett 45:22 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 45:22 Summer shape, right?

Steven Bartlett 45:23 Yes. Fuck. (laughs)

Dr Alex George 45:23 And being in summer body, right? We'll call it.

Steven Bartlett 45:25 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 45:25 Not calling out every-

Steven Bartlett 45:25 Like you before the virus. (laughs)

Dr Alex George 45:26 Yeah. No, no. Exactly. No, but also, but it, but, but you, but part of, uh, for m- uh, same for me as well, uh, I went, "Well, h- why is that? Why are we doing that?" Well, as soon as you're aware of the why-

Steven Bartlett 45:37 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 45:37 ... and why we're doing something, we then, through that awareness, modify, and we realize, all of a sudden, we modify our, our behavior. It's kind of idea if I say to you, "Right, focus on your breathing," it's like, "Oh, like, think about your breath," all of a sudden, you start controlling your breathing.

Steven Bartlett 45:50 Mm.

Dr Alex George 45:50 You're aware of it. You're making a conscious, um, conscious decision around that, that subject. So, I think just having that knowledge, have that understanding, and be aware of what it's doing to your life. Some of it might, you might incorporate, some of you think, "Actually, I'm fine," in that sense. But think about it. Be aware.

Steven Bartlett 46:04 You also raise such a good point and, you know, like, up until... So, the example you gave just for reference sake is, um, I always... The reason why I was always unsuccessful in the gym is because I was, my goal was to get to look good for summer, so when I looked good or summer ended, my why was gone. And I, and I was, and it was a cycle that just repeated every single year, 'cause-

Dr Alex George 46:21 I think most of us feel that.

Steven Bartlett 46:23 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 46:23 I mean, most of us have been there and done that, haven't we?

Steven Bartlett 46:25 But your point there was the thing that cured it was the self-awareness-

Dr Alex George 46:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:28 ... of my own cycle.

Dr Alex George 46:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:29 And without the self-awareness and the education, which I think you've, you've, you've done a tremendous job in this book of, uh, put, like, of, um, educating people on, um, we, as it l- relates to the point we're making about the society we live in and how it's broken, you will literally be a puppet to the society, and the society will be your puppet master. It will tell you, the notifications on your phone will tell you when you can sleep.

Dr Alex George 46:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:51 And it will tell you, um, when, uh, how to communicate and form meaningful connections. Use Tinder. It will, it will, it will orchestrate your life for you. And I think what you're saying there is, uh, which I completely agree with, is self-awareness allows you to take back control and be intentional about these critically important areas for your, of your health.

Dr Alex George 47:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:07 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 47:08 And then if you want any more kind of evidence of how much it controls it, think about, you know, what, when I s- if I said to someone now, "Right, don't have your phone in the bedroom tonight," they'd be an instant-

Steven Bartlett 47:17 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 47:17 For most people, I would, I don't want to speak for everyone, but a lot of people doing this thought-

Steven Bartlett 47:19 For me. (laughs)

Dr Alex George 47:19 ... "I'm not doing that." An- anxiety around the thought of not having your phone in the bedroom. It's like, why is that such a big thing? It's not a problem to have a phone outside the room. Why do you really need it? But it shows our attachment to tech and to the modern life, you know? We don't need that phone. And actually, when I was on Love Island, the w- the best thing about going on Love Island was that I didn't have a phone for nearly nine weeks. That was the best thing about it. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 47:40 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 47:41 I literally wouldn't say that. It was great being, uh, out in the sunshine. But that actually was amazing. It was like a real, like, wow. And now, I, I've come back, we're so attached to it again. Um, and it's something I'm working on. I'm conscious now I need to stop putting my phone out of my bedroom. I'd done it a few times, but it just creeps back in. But I'm aware of it now. And then I think that's a big starting point for fixing a problem is just knowing it's there.

Steven Bartlett 47:59 Mm. Speaking of Love Island, when you came out of, um, Love Island, I, I heard that you went and did some therapy.

Dr Alex George 48:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 48:05 Tell me about your thinking there, and, and what inspired that?

Dr Alex George 48:08 I, when you look at, um, risks for m- um, deterioration in, in mental health or mental illness, one of the biggest things we talk about is change and big life change, changes. And people sometimes think that means bad things. It means good and bad. Like, for example, you could have been given your dream job in, uh, London and you're from Leeds. Now, that's the goal, and what's happening is your dream, you've had that dream job, but it means a big up, life upheaval, getting a new flat, being away from family and friends. So, even good things can g- bring problems, right? So, when I came out of the show, I was like, "Wow, I've been through..." I was quite aware, "I've been through quite a big thing." I'd gone from, you know, 200 followers on Instagra- Instagram to one million in, in nine weeks. You know, I am not someone from social media. I don't understand it at all. It was all completely new. The life had changed. I'm now being stopped, you know, by everyone in the street, which is something so different for me. And I was like, "I need to process this." So, that's why I went to therapy. I think it was one of the best things I've done. I kind of had to kind of go, like-... unpick what I was going through. And it was almost like a, a, such a big shock to the system. And, uh, it really, really helped me. And I'd say to anyone, you know, it, everyone should have a therapist, I actually think. You know, everyone needs a therapist (laughs) in life. And it's one of the things that I think the Americans have really got right, I think, that we could learn from, is that it's so much more open just to, uh, talk about things and what you're going through. And people are very happy to say, "Yeah, I'm getting therapy." You know? And it wasn't because I was particularly going through a difficult time. I just was aware I've had quite a big change.

Steven Bartlett 49:35 Very, um, self-aware of you to even, to even want to do that. Because y- y- as you say, you weren't struggling-

Dr Alex George 49:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:42 ... tremendously in that moment. But you were... It was almost preemptive, I guess.

Dr Alex George 49:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:45 You, you, yeah.

Dr Alex George 49:46 I just kind of was like, "This is just, you know, kind of like," sorry to use the word, but "crazy." It's like this is a crazy thing to go through. I need to kinda, kinda process this. And it really, it really helped me 'cause I w- I went back to unpicking about, like, "Who am I? What do I want in life? What do I wanna achieve in my life?" And it allowed me to kind of consider those things as well as dealing with, like, "Okay, what's it like, you know, to, for people to recognize you?" and all this kind of stuff. And, and, and it really helped me. And going back to that kind of purpose point, I kind of had this kind of big life shift of, like, "What is my purpose now?" Because I've trained... Or I wanted to be a doctor since the age of about 13. I've tried and done all that training and all, passed all those exams. I've actually pretty happy at 27 years old being a doctor. You know, I'm got a good life in what I'm doing. I enjoy it. Now I've got this whole new thing. What is my purpose? And it really helped me kind of figure that out. And one of the biggest things and most important things that I did was going back to, to work. You know, I went back to A&E after a couple of months, um, to kind of, to kind of just get back into that kind of what the sense of me was. And from doing that, actually, it gave me the purpose for everything else. And all the things that I do and all the things, you know, the books, the podcast, the, the, you, you, you know, the other bits and pieces that I'm doing with my life, it all stems off that, that purpose. And I think I was very lucky to have that therapy. And I'm glad that I had it to help me figure out what I was gonna do.

Steven Bartlett 51:02 Christ. Because... And in that moment coming out of Love Island, you have more options-

Dr Alex George 51:08 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:08 ... than ever.

Dr Alex George 51:08 But you can make a lot... But more options also gives you, uh, uh, brings the oppor- th- the possibilities of making a lot of mistakes. For example, you know... And I, uh, and I, again, I don't, I'm not saying it's any kind of slight at all. We're all different. Everyone's different. But for me, I was not gonna come out and do, um, club appearances or, uh, you know, do those kind of things because it's, A, I'm an introvert. I would've hated it, (laughs) as you probably realized by now. But secondly, it would've drawn away from what I actually... what my purpose was and what I really wanted to achieve. So, you know... And I, and I, and I'm... I have very wise advice I received, um, coming out of the show... Sorry, I keep on crumbling. Sorry, go on.

Steven Bartlett 51:44 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 51:44 So, wise advice I received when I came out the show was, you know, say no to most things. You know, if you're saying yes to more things than you're saying no, you're probably doing something wrong. Um, and I had to kind of channel that. And it was a risk, you know, in some sense. I could have made a ton of money going to club PAs. You know, the most I was offered was like 10 grand to go to a club, right, just for a half an hour, 40 minutes something. And I said no to every single one of them. And to this day, I've never ever done one. But by doing that and channeling my energy into things that I care about and putting my time into the projects that kind of matter and give me that longevity and the direction I want to be in, that was very important. And, uh, I, as I say, I think a big part of figuring that all out was therapy, and that really helped me, I think.

Steven Bartlett 52:25 What's really interesting as well is when you take... You, you, you, when you drift away from yourself, you almost don't notice it happening-

Dr Alex George 52:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:31 ... because you just take one of those club PAs and then, you know, someone will, you know, they go, "Oh, we're getting back next week." And then they tell the club down the road and they, they get you down there.

Dr Alex George 52:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:39 And then they say, "Oh, well, I've got a friend now."

Dr Alex George 52:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:40 "Maybe he can do some, you know, this, or that, or the other." And it's just this slow sort of swaying from y- from y- yourself-

Dr Alex George 52:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:47 ... from who you are. And, uh, this happens with a lot of people.

Dr Alex George 52:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:50 And they... And, you know, it, sometimes it happens... Like, I mean, yours was huge temptation in terms of like financial temptation.

Dr Alex George 52:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:57 Some people it's, you know, their mom telling them that they should be a lawyer.

Dr Alex George 53:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:01 And they go, "Well, you know, I'll do that." And then they get 10 years down the line and they've swayed so far from who they are that they've lost that sense of their purpose.

Dr Alex George 53:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:09 They don't even know the way back.

Dr Alex George 53:11 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:11 It's almost bl- their, their, their new identity, their false identity has become so much part of them that they don't know how to... They've built this group of friends-

Dr Alex George 53:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:17 ... that's the other thing, because then it's reinforced by the-

Dr Alex George 53:19 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:19 ... the people you then associate with. You get the wrong type of people around you. And then... And it's hard to get back, right?

Dr Alex George 53:25 I, I, I b- I believe in that kind of, um, uh, you know, uh, not law of attraction, but, you know, if you, if you move in a certain direction, you take a step in a certain direction, you will, you will move in that direction. And the further steps you take, you move further into that direction, and you'll attract people that are moving in that same direction. And that's fine if it's going in the direction you want to. But if it's not, you could end up in a place you don't want to be. And that's why the number one first chapter that I do, talk about is that passion and purpose, the purpose idea. How do you find your purpose? You know, and a lot of people ask that question. And I, I think it's that idea you've got to look at your, like, values, your experiences, your beliefs, your, your interests and, and, and find that intersection between those. You know, what are your actual talents? You know, where, where does that all kind of lie? And I think you've, you've always got time to change that direction. I think when you're... if you're in y- in life and you're doing law but you wanted to do, I don't know, you want to be an artist or whatever. Well, you know, why, first of all? You know, what do you need to... What, what do you need to do to get to that position? I, I do believe that modern life, unfortunately, does create a lot of boundaries and think you can't do this or that or you can't change your direction. If you're in this direction, you can't go in the opposite. And I think that's, that's, that's such a shame, and we, we should change that. Look at medicine, for example. I mean, imagine the eyebrows raised when I moved in the complete opposite direction. You know, and I, I don't mean this... I hope it doesn't come across in this way, but a lot of the things I've done haven't been done before by someone that's, you know, a junior doctor that's going through those ranks. It's, it's a first in, in... and certainly in this country. I think Doctor Mike has done something similar in America, but in this country, it's quite different. Um, but I hope that people, what they'll take from that is that actually you can change. You don't have to go down a certain path. And if you're not happy with the path you're going down, what are you gonna do to change it? You know, what are your goals?

Steven Bartlett 55:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 55:03 Write it all down. I, I still do it now. Every now and then when I'm feeling a bit, "Oh, I need to, you know, think about where I'm going with things," or...I just need to have a moment. I write down all my thoughts, my goals, my ideas. Sometimes I just word vomit onto paper, whatever I'm just thinking in the moment, and then I leave that piece of paper for a day or so. And then I come back and I look at it, and sometimes I just go, "What is written down here?"

Steven Bartlett 55:22 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 55:22 I start circling stuff, and I start thinking about, well, what, how does that connect? Why did I write that? What, what am I thinking about when I'm looking at that? And, and then from that you draw, take away that word vomit and make a new list of like, you know, what is my purpose, number one. You can, you know, what is my number one purpose that I want, th- what is my purpose? And then, you know, under that put your goals, you know. How am I gonna achieve that? What are my goals? What are my aims? How am I gonna put it into practice? And, uh, it's just a simple thing, actually. It's so easy, you just need a pen and a blank piece of paper. But I think everyone should do that so often. I mean, in business they talk about the five-year plan, and, and all this kind of stuff, but I think just as an individual, just get out of your head sometimes. You know, get it out on paper, know what you're doing. Am I happy? Do I want to change it? Am I following? When I write down my purpose, am I actually doing that? Am I doing my purpose? But also, if I'm not, what am I doing to achieve it? 'Cause if you're not doing anything that will get you to that purpose, then what are you doing?

Steven Bartlett 56:15 There's something ... Y- what you're describing there is you're, like, interrogating yourself. You're interrogating

Steven Bartlett 56:20 your thoughts, your, your underlying reasons why you're thinking things, maybe j- thinking of pursuing things. And in a world where there is this constant whispering, this external whispering, which is saying, "You should be an influencer. You should be a YouTuber."

Dr Alex George 56:35 (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 56:35 That's the ... People will love you more if you're a millionaire.

Dr Alex George 56:38 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 56:38 Y- and that is, we're exposed to that every hour of every day, no matter where we look, this external thing telling you what your purpose is-

Dr Alex George 56:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:45 ... what the best purpose is.

Dr Alex George 56:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:47 And we know that, as you were saying, purpose is subjective.

Dr Alex George 56:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:49 Mine's different from yours. But the world has a very clear idea-

Dr Alex George 56:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:53 ... of what the best purpose is.

Dr Alex George 56:55 It's a very good point. It's very interesting. It's a very interesting thought.

Steven Bartlett 56:57 And that, and this is why I, I'm such a big advocate of this, like, interrogation.

Dr Alex George 57:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:01 In fact, that's what's, it's cured, it's, it saved me in my life, because 18 years old, I want ... My diary, it said, "Range Rover, hot girlfriend-"

Dr Alex George 57:10 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 57:10 "... a million pounds before I'm 20."

Dr Alex George 57:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:11 Literally said-

Dr Alex George 57:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:12 "... a million pounds before I'm 25. Range Rover Sport."

Dr Alex George 57:15 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:15 That, those were my goals in life, came from a place of insecurity, obviously. I was, therefore I was susceptible to that whispering-

Dr Alex George 57:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:20 ... telling me what the best purpose and the way to ... Millionaire is the, the way to happiness is. Um, and, but without that interrogation you described, you will go with that voice because it's fucking loud.

Dr Alex George 57:30 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 57:31 Right? So there has to be a counter voice. And by putting it on paper, you're really attacking that external narrative which is, w- threatens to lead you astray, right?

Dr Alex George 57:40 Yeah. And I, I think it's, it's that idea, like you said. Every ... Life is kind of, all that you've got in, in, in- influences within your life, like friends and family, they have common beliefs, what your mom wanted you to do or whatever, and that directs you. Then, as you say, you've got this massive, uh ... It's loud and quiet, and that's the problem.

Steven Bartlett 57:54 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 57:54 There's like an undertone and a loud-

Steven Bartlett 57:56 Yeah.

Dr Alex George 57:56 ... kind of father saying, "Do this. This is what, what should make you happy." And I think that interrogation's very important. I think anyone listening to this, ask yourself honestly, when is the last time you genuinely sat down and thought about what you want to do in life? What actually is your purpose? What makes you happy? What is peace? What, what, what does peace mean to you? You know, and, and if you haven't done it in the last year or so, do it. Take out a piece of paper. That's all you need. Pen and a paper. It's a very easy task.

Steven Bartlett 58:20 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 58:20 It's not a complex one. Write, write it down. It's amazing. It's such a ... It's a really enriching and motivating process. And, and a- again, the, the key thing is it's not like, it's not like, "Yes, I'm achieving it." It's, uh, not about that. And it's about going, "Well, you know, where, what direction am I going in? If it's not the direction I want, what am I going to do to change it?" Basically.

Steven Bartlett 58:41 I can't... Yeah. It's so imp- And to do it often as well, because again, you're gonna log in often to Instagram and t- you're gonna be exposed to that external voice often, so I think the practice has to, the counter practice has to be done often as well, which is that recentering to self, right?

Dr Alex George 58:53 And I think, yeah. Uh, and a- a- absolutely, and I think when you're talking about the Instagram, the, the, the, the voices, the noise that you're seeing online, particularly, and on that note, and I, I try and tell everyone this, go through your feed. If you haven't done it recently, go through your, um, followers and unfollow anyone that doesn't serve your hobbies, your interests, your beliefs, your passions. It's amazing how much we collect people that we're following that actually make us feel bad, they're giving us the wrong noises, they're making us kind of judge ourselves har- harshly, whether that's your body type or what they're achieving or they just annoy you. Unfollow it. Your feed, if you're going to have this noise, have it as a noise that reflec- reflects your purpose, your passion, your hobbies, your beliefs. A- and I think that will, for a lot of people, make a, a big difference. If you're gonna have the noise, have the good noise.

Steven Bartlett 59:36 Oh my God. I, I don't ... Um, I can't explain how important that advice is. Just thinking logically, if you go on your phone at the moment, you probably see that, uh, I probably spend several hours a day on social media.

Dr Alex George 59:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:49 That is several hours potentially polluting my, my brain-

Dr Alex George 59:52 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:53 ... with junk values.

Dr Alex George 59:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:54 Uh, m- making myself feel like shit. There, it, that is mental self-harm.

Dr Alex George 59:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 59:59 And, and I, so once upon a time-

Dr Alex George 1:00:01 Quite literally.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:02 Quite literally. I, once upon a time I made that decision and said, "Well..." You know, 'cause people listening to this, they'll say, "Well, A- you know, Alex, I can't unfollow this person because they are my friend-"

Dr Alex George 1:00:10 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:10 "... or my work colleague." But you can hit the mute button.

Dr Alex George 1:00:12 You can mute them.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:13 Yeah. (laughs)

Dr Alex George 1:00:13 Mute them.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:14 I mute 90 p- 95%-

Dr Alex George 1:00:15 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:15 ... of people in my timeline. Genuine on my Instagram, about 95%-

Dr Alex George 1:00:18 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:19 ... of people are muted. When I'm exposed to this-

Dr Alex George 1:00:20 Now everyone's gonna be looking and going, "Hang on."

Steven Bartlett 1:00:21 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 1:00:22 I thought We're like, "Am I one in 10? Am I one in 10?" Um, uh-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:25 Do I watch your Stories?

Dr Alex George 1:00:26 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:00:27 There, there's your answer. (laughs) .

Dr Alex George 1:00:30 (laughs) . Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:30 If I'm not in your Stories, then-

Dr Alex George 1:00:31 Ah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:31 ... you know, unfortunately you're muted. And it just is what it is. We've all got to protect ourselves.

Dr Alex George 1:00:34 I agree. No, uh, honestly. And that, uh, that 100%.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr Alex George 1:00:37 If you can't unfollow, mute them. Just curate your feed. Have it to be what you want it to be. It's not just about the business or influence, it's, it's about just general life. Let's be honest, most people spend a couple of hours on your phone, so make that couple of hours either enjoyable or useful or funny. You know, and the same with, like, TikTok and stuff. I use TikTok mostly just for a bit of fun, so I follow mostly, like, cats doing stupid stuff or whatever.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:55 (laughs)

Dr Alex George 1:00:56 (laughs) Anything that makes me laugh. So just, it goes back