The Diary of a CEOEddie Hearn on Selling Matchroom For 5 Billion | E58
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 29,678 words- 0:00 – 1:54
Intro
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, my God. Eddie Hearn. What a guy. There's very few people... No. I'm gonna change that. I've never met someone as neurotically obsessed with success, and with winning, and with accomplishing things, and with living a life in constant forward motion as my next guest, Eddie Hearn. And it's remarkable because when you unpack the reasons for that obsession and that dedication to being more and achieving more, there's quite a fragile, vulnerable, insecure story. That's something I've noticed with a lot of my guests, and it often makes me think that the most successful amongst us aren't necessarily choosing to be. Something's happened to them that's left them with no choice. Eddie Hearn is one of the most notorious sports promoters in the world. He's the king of boxing in this country. He is known for his No Contacts Hand Twitter page, which I'm sure a lot of you have seen. But what I wanted to do when I sat down with Eddie Hearn was to get underneath, to get underneath the external sort of braggadocious, loud promoter side of him, and to find out even in the case of someone like Eddie who is loud, who is successful, who is ambitious, who is a promoter, are the same things true for him that are true for you? The insecurities, the vulnerabilities, the mental health issues. And how much does he really understand himself? My conversation with Eddie was incredibly enlightening. But it also wasn't that surprising. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays)
- 1:54 – 9:42
What made you so relentless
- SBSteven Bartlett
You've done a ton of interviews, especially over the last couple of weeks, and there's this really consistent theme that I felt in all of the interviews I watched. I watched you at Cambridge, the High Performance Podcast, loads of them. And, um, and then before we came, uh, started filming today, I had a chat with Frank, and he fully grassed on you. No.
- EHEddie Hearn
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
What he said to me, which I, I, which was also consistent with these interviews, is that you are relentless. And he was telling me he's b- he's had some, um... I probably shouldn't say this, but he was telling me, he goes, "I've, I've started having this, uh..." Is it night owl or-
- EHEddie Hearn
Night nurse.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... night nurse stuff.
- EHEddie Hearn
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause Eddie will text me in the middle of the night.
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And he went, "I'll tell you one thing about Eddie. He is relentless."
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're what? 40?
- EHEddie Hearn
41.
- SBSteven Bartlett
41 years old. What's made you that relentless at 41 years old to the point where you're, you're, uh, pestering your colleagues at 3:00 AM in the morning?
- EHEddie Hearn
I don't know really. Um, I think when I, when I did the book, it was like, it was quite a good, um, sort of counseling session-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
... with myself because I wasn't really great at school. I wasn't particularly a hard worker at school.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
I loved a pound note always. And when I wrote the book, it just... I, I started writing about my childhood, and what it was like growing up, and how I was molded. And I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that I love to win, and I'm a-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why did you love to win?
- EHEddie Hearn
I don't know, because with my dad, that's what we did. So when we played cricket, when we played football, when we played table tennis, when we sparred with each other, it was like for me growing up, you weren't... You know, I would come back from a match. Say I played cricket-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
... and h- and he would go to me. And my, actually, my mum was the same. And he would say to me, "How many runs did you get today, son?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
And I would say, "Oh, no, four." "Oh, useless. Come on. Next time, knock in a 50." Right? It was never, "Oh, well, well done, son. You know, you took part. That's what really matters." Th- they taught me taking part is completely and utterly irrelevant. You win. And ultimately, sport is how I was brought up. I was brought up on the foundations of sport, the lessons of sport, the winning, the losing, you know, the highs, the lows. But always taught that winning was everything. So... And I'm a failed athlete. You know, I think any kid growing up would love to be a sportsman, wouldn't they? I played cricket at a very good level, but I c- I was never good enough at anything, so this is the next best thing. But I think if you're not trying to win in life and win, winning, it means something different to everybody. Success means something different to everybody. Some people view success as being able to get their pay packet on a weekend, you know, be able to, you know, spend time with their family and have enough food on the t- you know, have, make enough money to have food on the table and make sure everything's okay at home and, and be happy, you know, and have a happy life with no, no stress or no drama. That's success to a lot of people. But people's interpretation of success is very different. And, you know, for me, I, I, I still don't know why I, I, I, I do... I, and I know, I know why I do this, but like you say, I, I love it. I guess. That's what it comes down to it, passion for what you do. And I don't know what the passion is. Is it the passion that I love the sport of boxing?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
Is it the passion that I wanna succeed against, you know, a- and be bigger than my dad? I think that's a big part of it as well. Or is it just that I love to win or is it that I'm a bit sick in the head? Maybe all of them.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The sick in the head point-
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I wanna play with that idea a little bit. Um, I, I write, I, I wrote in my book actually, we have the same publisher. I wrote in my book that the thing that invalidates you when you're younger becomes the thing you seek validation from when you're older. And what I meant by that is like in my childhood, because we didn't have money, um, and I was this Black kid in a school of 1,500 white kids, everything that we didn't have became the things that I chased when I was older, or the thing that made me feel somewhat invalid sometimes when I was a kid, like you're saying about your dad, saying, "Oh, you, you lost today."
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- 9:42 – 18:17
The sacrifices in-order to be successful
- SBSteven Bartlett
you're, you're talking there about the sacrifice of his success, which is one of them, as you've highlighted, is less time with your family.
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You are relentless. Um, everybody says that. What is the, the cost of being a relentless person?
- EHEddie Hearn
You have to be incredibly selfish. You have to... You know, f- for me, family is the most important thing. But I have to be brutally honest and say, I don't let even family get in the way of things that I have to do. You know? And that, that can make you an arsehole, and it can make you sound terrible. But I, I just don't know any way around it. There is no way you can be the perfect husband or the perfect father and run a successful business or, you know, be a, you know, uh, uh, uh, a relentless operator. It's impossible, because I know, because I try to balance both. But when you're flying back from America from a show and you land at 7:00 in the morning, and then you go to Manchester for a press conference, and then you come home and you just make it to pick them up from school, and then you get back and they say, "Dad, Dad, let's go over the park," and you're just absolutely on empty, and your phone's going and you're trying to do another deal, and, you know, you're pushing the swing and you're going like this trying to send a message at the same time. I- It's impossible, you know. Listen, I know 'cause sometimes my, my eldest daughter who's old enough to know, "Dad, please get off the phone." And that's... That kills me 'cause that's... Oh, that's bad to hear, you know. I'm like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- EHEddie Hearn
... "Okay, okay." But then th- 30 seconds later, I'm back just having a look down-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, back on having a look at your phone.
- EHEddie Hearn
... because it's a lifestyle, you know. And i- it's impossible to be great at anything without making sacrifices. You know, i- it doesn't matter if you're a fighter, if you're a sportsman. You speak to all successful people, you can't be everything. It's impossible, you know. And, and... But what you don't wanna do is you don't wanna disregard your obligations, your family obligations, because they are extremely important. But you also need a wife or a partner who's understanding enough to say, "This is what... I know what he's like. He won't stop." And that's why when Frank talks about 3:00 AM, 4:00 AM, that's because a lot of the time I'm sort of making up for the hour or two that I've lost out playing with the kids. So I'll put them to sleep, they'll go to sleep at 9:00, half nine, you know, chill out with the wife for an hour, she'll go to sleep, and then I'm up. And now with the growth in America, it means that at 4:00 PM, 5:00 PM, the West Coast wakes up.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
So I can't go to bed. I can't disappear when it gets to 11:00-... AM on, on the West Coast or, or midday on the West Coast because they wanna speak to me and we wanna do business.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I am, uh, much earlier in my career, maybe, I don't know, 15 years earlier in my career, and, um, I've struggled with romantic love for the very same reason that for the last decade I've, like, slept in the office multiple weekends.
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've been obsessed. Um, I would basically sacrifice everything. And there became this moment in my life where I think it was maybe the day that someone tried to buy the company, and I thought about what I'd spend it on, and I remember going home, and I swear on my mother's life, I went on Rightmove and Autotrader at the same ... I had two tabs open, and I'm like, "The Lamborghini (laughs) No, no, no, no, no. No, that's, that, that always follows, the Lamborghini.
- EHEddie Hearn
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
So I was looking at this Lamborghini and this mansion, the countryside, and then I thought, "If I buy these things, I'm trading, like, this purpose I have, this job, this, you know, for, for this Lamborghini and this mansion," and it felt really, really empty. And then I thought, "But Steve, you know, you, when you were 18 and you were broke and you had no money," 18-year-old Steve said, wrote in your diary, this is why it's called The Diary of a CEO, that you wanted the sports car, the million before you were 25. This was what we did it for. And then it threw my head into this, like, confusion. It's like, "If, if, if it's not that, if that's gonna make me feel empty," they call it, like, um, gold medal depression-
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... when Michael Phelps won all the medals and then got depressed, um, then what's it all for? And, and then I thought, b- and then also when does it all end? Like, when does it end?
- EHEddie Hearn
Well, it doesn't end because ... And actually, you, you're always searching. This is, this is a problem and something you have to be careful of, because when you are trying to succeed and when you're trying to become great, actually the great people, they never feel content with achievement. And I'm very much like that. Frank Lampard, again going back to him, he said that when he won the Champions League, he always dreamed of winning the Champions League, and he stood there with the trophy, and he felt nothing. I mean, he felt happy, but definitely not content, definitely not, "I've cracked it." That might go back to the sickness, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
... that we talked about earlier, and wh- when we talk about sickness, I mean, not, probably not medically sick, but sick in the head a little bit-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- EHEddie Hearn
... to a point where I get it all the time. You know, we say that, you know, we wanted to do ... You know, when, when AJ turned pro, we wanted him to be the World Heavyweight Champion. You know, he won that. Great. We was in the ring after jumping up and down. As soon as we got out the ring, the m-
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- EHEddie Hearn
Yeah. And then it's like, "Okay, well we wanna do something el-" You know, we got the Klitschko fight.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
Okay, you go through it, 90,000 at, at Wembley. You stand there. Everyone that was at the event tells you it's the greatest sporting occasion they've ever been to, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
How'd you feel?
- EHEddie Hearn
Uh, at the time, amazing. In the ring, amazing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Day after?
- 18:17 – 26:21
Deathbed thinking
- EHEddie Hearn
you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You talked a little bit about there about being 80 years old and looking back on your life. I'm gonna just play a little, uh, a little game with you so we gotta imagine. Um, imagine that ... What day of the week was it? I think it was Tuesday today, Tuesday.
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So Friday you find out that Friday's your last day on Earth. My question is ... And really put yourself there, right? So Friday's your last day on Earth. All the fights coming up, AJ, Fury, it's all f- all falls away. What do you immediately regret?
- EHEddie Hearn
I ... That's actually something that I've thought about quite a lot. And the reason was is, um, about four months ago, my grandad passed away. He was 93. Great life, you know. And when I went to see him in his last couple of days, you know, and he obviously didn't look great. And I looked at him, I thought, "Wow, life's crazy, innit?" I said, "Everything that you've done in your life, and now you're laying here about to leave." So when you get experiences like that, it just ... You have to be reminded sometimes that this is a game. Life is a game. We're only on borrowed time, right? And you can never take yourself too seriously. I think that's one thing I do well is I love to have a laugh and I don't take myself too seriously. Um, in answer to your question, since that moment, I've been thinking a, a lot about if I, you know, if I went now, do you look back and say, "I couldn't have done any more. I had a great time"?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- EHEddie Hearn
And I think the answer is yes. I mean, we could all d- we can all do better, but my dad is an inspiration in that respect, because he's the kinda person that couldn't have squeezed one more drop out of his life, right? So I- I'm quite envious of that. He's 73 and I- I ... Who knows how long he's gonna last. But I do feel like it's very important that when you get to whatever stage when God says, "That's enough for you," that you are able to look back and say, "I couldn't have done any more."
- SBSteven Bartlett
I-
- EHEddie Hearn
And, and that scares me a little bit because-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I wanna know exactly what ... When you think about more, uh, you're saying, "I coulda done more."
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You find out that this Friday is your last day, what are the things where you think, "Do you know what..." Because I think that the h- the ... That moment, like the, the deathbed moment puts everything in perspective.
- EHEddie Hearn
It does, but I think in that moment, your emotions are very different to when you're well and fit and on the hustle and just, you know. So you don't get a chance to reflect on that kinda moment until you're there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- EHEddie Hearn
And the obvious reflection at that point is, "I wish I would've spent more time with my family."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- EHEddie Hearn
You know? "I wish I would've b- been less focused, probably, on work." But I'm not a believer in ... You know, the thoughts then are not the thoughts now, and you have to act on the moment. You can't live your life saying, "Well, blimey, when I'm on my deathbed, you might look back and ..." Because I don't, I don't think you can plan like that. You have to do what's in your heart. You have to do what feels right, and what feels right for me right now is this.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- EHEddie Hearn
What, what might feel right then is, "Ah, do you know what? Shoulda probably missed a few trips really and just done the school run a little bit more and ..." And, and I know that. You know, you, you have to, you really have to understand where you are in life. This is great for your mental health as well and your sanity. You gotta be honest with yourself, and, and you gotta understand the situation. I know exactly where I'm at, what I'm thinking, what I'm doing, the sacrifices I'm making, what I could do better at, what I d- you know. But I'm okay with it. You know, I'm ... You, you can't get the perfect balance, but as long as you understand what is going on and you're not deluded, you're not stubborn, "Nah, don't worry about it. I'm never bo-" You know, I know, I know I need to do more at home. I know I need to do more school runs. I know I need to be less short with the wife sometimes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But can you ... There's a couple of points here that I think are super interesting. So, um, th- that deathbed moment, what I think it's doing, and I've never been there. You've not been there.
- EHEddie Hearn
No. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
But-
- EHEddie Hearn
Thankfully.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... what I think it's doing is it's telling you what actually mattered because, uh, m- to some degree. I think that it's sh- it's like with that hindsight you can say, "Fuck, that person criticizing my hair or my cut or this-"
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... none of that fucking ever mattered. All of that was trivial. All the things that mattered were," as you say, "like my niece-"
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... or my ..." You know. So I think that's what that moment's doing.
- EHEddie Hearn
But that comes over time. How old are you now?
- SBSteven Bartlett
27. 2023, yeah.
- 26:21 – 28:27
Is ambition choice?
- EHEddie Hearn
being relentless and we talk about this work ethic, you can only have it if you love what you do and if you have a passion for what you do. I don't think you can trick yourself. You can, but you can't be as good, you know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Y- y- you know, you said, um, earlier that you, you feel like you're self-aware of, like, the, the lack of balance in your life because you've got this r- real relentless streak, you've got this family and you're self-aware of it. Do you think, as much as you're aware of it, do you think deep inside you, you really have a choice? Or do you think you're being somewhat dragged by your own ambition? Because this is what I find fascinating about people-
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... successful people, is it tends to be the case that, like me, I'm aware I need to see my niece more.
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But I just f- sometimes don't feel like I ha- I'm fully in control.
- EHEddie Hearn
No, because, uh, well, I, I do it because it's what I want to do, ultimately. I mean, I do have an obligation, you know, I do have responsibilities. I'm talking about in the workplace.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- EHEddie Hearn
You know, we've got a fantastic team here, but ultimately, when we announcing a show, when we doing a press conference, when we do, they want me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- EHEddie Hearn
They want their flesh. So they roll me out and I'm just like, I am like a traveling salesman. "Right, Eddie, we're n- announcing this show today, off you go. Right, here we go, buh-buh, back in the car, here we go." You know w- so, but I do it because I enjoy it, because I love it, because I have an obligation to do it for the business that my father created.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
And I've, my responsibility now is to take that to the next level. You know, he built this from the foundations, from nothing. I'm not gonna let it just fizzle out as he goes into his 80s, I wanna take it to the next level. But the difference is, is I don't have to do this, you know? I'm not looking at this saying, "It's my way out. Um, you know, oh, just, if I just make some money, I can, you know, I can buy the Lamborghini," or I could've done that at 21.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But imagine the Eddie that, that doesn't do this. Imagine wha- how he'd feel.
- EHEddie Hearn
Horrible. But the same thing. That was, that, that was me at school. You know, that was the kid telling the teachers, "I don't have to do that, you know, I won't..." And that, ugh. God, that-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
... runs shivers down me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Give me
- 28:27 – 37:45
Finding the work life balance for a relationship
- SBSteven Bartlett
some advice on, um, 'cause you've got a, um, you're married.
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I'm, I genuinely-
- EHEddie Hearn
What do you want, dating advice? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Eve- Genuinely. Gen- uh, it sounds crazy, but I'm like, you've managed to crack, s- it seems like, 'cause you're married, um, crack the balance of being relentless on one end, but then managing to find a person or to at least keep them happy to some degree. I've not sp-
- EHEddie Hearn
Boosh. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Spoken to, yeah, I've not spoken to... But I genuinely, uh, started to think over th- the, the last couple of years, I'm like, "How am I gonna find someone that understands that I wanna send text messages at 4:00 AM in the morning and that I sometimes don't wanna talk to them and that I, when I'm sat next to them, I'll be quiet for seven hours because I've just got an email that I'm thinking about?" And so I'm like, is it the, you have to find the right person? Is it something you say to them?
- EHEddie Hearn
I think they need to know you. They need to know what drives you. I mean, if you had a conversation with my wife and you said, "What, what is he like?" You know, she'd just go, "Well, he's just in his own world, isn't he?" I mean, the amount of times, you know that moment where-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- EHEddie Hearn
... you get home and they go, "Right, I need to talk to you." And you go into the-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, God.
- EHEddie Hearn
... the kitchen and they go, "Right, now, uh, Isabella, you know, I spoke to her teacher today and, um, what we're..." I'm gone, right? So I'm go- I'm going and I'm thinking, "That contract's gotta be in at 9:00 PM." You know, blah, blah, blah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- EHEddie Hearn
And she goes to me, "What did I say?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Gosh. (laughs)
- EHEddie Hearn
And I go, "The school. What? Isabella." And she just, she, but it's not like... And, and she'll go, listen, we have blazing rows. You know, "You're a, you know, you're so selfish. You, all you care about is work." You know, but y- again, it just gets to a point where you just have to understand life. You just, nothing's perfect, you know. You got two people that love each other. I've known her since, you know, my 20s. I've, I've, I've changed, we've both changed a lot over the years, but we've changed together and we've grown together, and this is what I do. You know, and, and I would've had that conversation with her at some point many years ago, to the point of saying, "Look, nothing's gonna get in my way. I, I, and I don't mean to sound horrible, and I love you and, you know, I wanna spend the rest of my life with you, but you have to understand me."You have to understand that this is extremely important to me. Not, don't say this is the most important thing to me, 'cause that'll get you bang in trouble. But, you know, this is extremely important to me. And I think because she's been around my family, because she knows how important it is to us, she kind of just gets it, you know. And there'll be times where she'll say, "Did I hear you on the phone last night at 5:00 in the morning?" I say, "Yeah, you know, we was doing the Canelo deal or, you know, AJ deal or..." And she would just look at me and go... But over time, you know, I think the mi- the most difficult thing is the early stages of dating, because it's, it's very difficult for a woman. Th- they want your attention, you know. People, people sometimes think that women want, uh, you know, money and, you know, the nice house. And of course, everybody does, but they don't really. They want your attention, and they want your company, and they want your time. And there are three things that are very difficult to do-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- EHEddie Hearn
... when you live that kind of lifestyle. So you do have to... You know, we'll do... I'll, I'll race back from somewhere and I'll say, "Right, you know, tonight let's go out for dinner." And I'll be knackered. I don't... You know, hopefully she don't listen to this. I really don't wanna go for dinner tonight. But you have to do it. And that's what my dad has kind of always taught me. He said, "You gotta do... You gotta resp-" My- big, we're big family people. My mum is from, from the East End. She's old school. As far as they're concerned, the man goes out and puts the bread on the table, and the wife looks after the man. Old, old, old world.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- EHEddie Hearn
That don't exist anymore.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- EHEddie Hearn
But every morning or every night, my mum will iron my dad a shirt and she will put it on his... on the door for him in the morning.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If you wa- if your wife... Right, say I, say we, we brought her in this room.
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We sat her down with God and we said, "Listen, you can decide what happens next with Eddie and his career," right? So you can, we can bring it to an end and he'll spend more time with you or... What do you reckon she would do? If she could make the decision on you, your relentlessness and your career-
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... how do you honestly think she would make that decision?
- EHEddie Hearn
I think, I think she... Because she knows how important it is to me, I think she would say, "No, he, he, he needs to do it, he has to do it." But I think the, I think the hope is that there is an end place or an end goal. For me-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Does that make you feel... (laughs)
- EHEddie Hearn
Yeah, but for me, I don't... Wha- whether in 20 years' time we, we play this back, I don't think I want to be 70, you know, maybe even 60, 70, 80, doing this, dealing with problems. And listen, maybe I won't even make it that long. But for me, I definitely have the mindset of not I wanna get in and get out, but I, I do want to get that moment where I do sit on the beach with a cigar, don't even smoke cigars, but you know, and a whiskey, don't even like whiskey, but you know, I can imagine the picture at least. And go, "Do you know what? We done it. We done well." But walking away is the thing that at the moment would kill me. You know, to be able... Imagine when you wrap up shop and, you know, this might be... I mean, for us, we've gone from being a family business, you know, to having four employees to now all of a sudden having hundreds of employees in, in multiple offices around the world. We're being approached by... for, for investment, for takeover, for IPOs. And now we're sort of at that stage of growth where, I don't know, I just see, I see a, I see a faster exit strategy than my dad. At least that's what I'm selling to her.
- 37:45 – 43:09
Your experience with mental health
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you ever suffered from any sort of mental health, um, predicaments?
- EHEddie Hearn
I don't think so, no. I mean, I think, again, depression's one of those things, a bit like yoga and breathing-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
... and stuff we were talking about earlier. If you would've said to me 10 years ago, listen, maybe even five or six years ago, "So-and-so's suffering from depression," if, if your perception of that person is, well, he's young, he's good-looking-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- EHEddie Hearn
... he's healthy, he's rich, he's successful, how can he be struggling from depression? What a load of rubbish. And actually, it takes the older generation even longer. I mean, I think my dad's only-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- EHEddie Hearn
... just accepted now that it exists with people because his mentality is, "What?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
"Dust yourself down. What's the matter with you?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
And it's, that's, you know, that, that's wrong because it is real-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
... you know, and it does exist. Um, I don't, you know ... Have I had days where I've been feeling incredibly down? Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
But surely that's normal, you know. I don't, I don't see myself suffering from that. And I think, I think mental health problems and depression, I think it comes from overthinking. You know, my, um, my brother-in-law is hilarious. He just ... I've never known anyone who just overthinks and worries about stuff. You know, you'll be having a conversation, he'll go, "Oh, just been thinking about that, you know, and, and if that happens, I was thinking, you know, next year you could be there, and then, ah, th- and then, from there ..." And it's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
"What are you doing?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
Just ... When you're struggling mentally, focus on the short-term. Focus on day-by-day. I think sometimes people look at ... And this is the same for business. When you have a project or a long-term plan, there are so many short-term obstacles and goals to overcome to get there. That's why many times you'll spoke to someone, "I've got this idea, you know, I'm gonna be doing this and that, and blah, blah." And then a month later, you've not even heard about it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- EHEddie Hearn
"Oh, well, what happened was-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- EHEddie Hearn
"... we, we launched and then, you know, the council came in or the regulation board came in and, and this other company tried to do this," and that and, and it just ... It's like, no, because you didn't focus on the short-term goals. All you were worried about was the house and the Lamborghini-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
... and you weren't prepared to, to tick the boxes to get there. So sometimes when I'm a little bit off or, you know, might be traveling a lot and the equilibrium's gone a- and it's like, "Okay, so I'm just gonna write down-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
"... what I'm gonna do today." And it can be really menial stuff. Could be walk the dog, you know, could be finalize a contract, could be go to the gym, could be go and get some food, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
... from M&S or whatever-
- 43:09 – 48:19
Social media
- SBSteven Bartlett
- EHEddie Hearn
I think social media is horrendous as well. Like, I, I've made the decision in the last couple of years, year specifically, to start ignoring and blocking out a lot of, um ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're a celebrity now.
- EHEddie Hearn
Yeah. Well-
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's a new thing, isn't it?
- EHEddie Hearn
But when I was coming through, when I was overturning the system, the support was unreal. And I was really feeding off that. I mean, anyone that says, you know, they're not affected by criticism or they, they're not worried about it, I mean, that's a load of rubbish. Of course you don't like people criticizing you. And by the way, you love people patting you on the back and championing you, of course. It's, it's natural.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What things get to you, though?
- EHEddie Hearn
Stuff that people ... Like, the personal stuff, couldn't give a, couldn't give a monkey's about. It's more about the ... It, it's, it's more about people ... When you're putting the work in something and you're so passionate about something and you're actually working for the good of, might be the sport or whatever, it's the people that just, you know, presume ... see you completely differently. So, that's the frustration. But over the last couple of years, I just started thinking to myself, "What are you ..." I was having a conversation with my old man. My old man's on Twitter, right? And he phoned me up a minute ago. "Oh, I was just having an argument with this geezer on Twitter, right? And he was going on about the snooker and the format. And I said to him ..." I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." I said, "Are you serious?" I said, "Who is ... One, who is this bloke?" I said, "Can you imagine someone stopping you on the street and having, having a pop at you about the snooker format?" But it also, it's, it's the platform that made us what we are. It, it got us to the top, you know, the interaction with the fans and the understanding of their mindset. So we can't just- ... You know, but it's become a toxic place. It really has. You know? And, and I worry for, I worry for my kids, you know? Sometimes one of them will be on TikTok and she'll put a dance out and someone will come back and sa- say, you know, I don't know, uh, "You're ugly. You look r- You're stu-" You know, and it's like, we never had that in our day. I mean, we never even had a phone. You know, if someone didn't like you, they might say something in the playground, but that's about it. So, we live in a world of criticism, and I think it's ... And negativity.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
But that's what I said to my old man, I said, "Can you imagine? Like, these people, they're all doing it all day." I'll put a post out, and you ... It's the same ones all the time. And I don't think- ... You know? And it ... Even, um, to the point where someone posted my phone number on Twitter, right? And I've had my phone number for 25 years, same one, right? And someone posted it and went, "Give E... This is Eddie Hearn's number. Give him a call and, you know, tell him what you think about the pay-per-view price," or whatever it is. And my phone was going mad. Like, it was like every ... Literally all day it was just private number, private number, priv- And I thought, "You know what?" "You gotta change your number." And I thought, "I can't be bothered." So I started answering a few, right? And to this day, this was a few years ago, it's still, people still do it. And there's this one guy-
- SBSteven Bartlett
You've got the same number?
- EHEddie Hearn
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Fuck.
- EHEddie Hearn
I can't be bothered to change it, right? So, this guy, it's private number, private number, private number. And it's all day, right? So I pick it up, and I go, "Hello, mate." And he goes, "Oh, bloody hell."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- EHEddie Hearn
"Eddie." And I go, "Yeah. How you doing, mate?" And he goes, "Uh, um, when you gonna stop ripping us off on the pay-per-views?" (laughs) Or something like that, right? And I go ... And it, and I went to him, "Mate, let's have a serious conversation. What are you doing?" And he goes, "What do you mean? What am I-" I said, "Have you got a job?" And he's like, "Uh, y- yeah." I went, I said, "You haven't, have you?" And he's like, "Well, uh, uh, not, not at the moment." I said, "What are you doing?" I said, "How many times have you phoned me today?" "Oh," he goes, uh, uh ... I mean, the answer was, like, 40, right? I said, "You gotta focus." I said, "All the energy you're putting into phoning me, 'cause you think it's banter or it's some kind of accomplishment if I pick up the phone," I said, "put it into something worthwhile." I said, "'Cause you're really wasting your life." And he just went quiet (laughs) and he's like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Christ.
- EHEddie Hearn
... "Uh, oh, come on now, Eddie, what about a few quid off the pay-per-view?" And I'm like, "No, no, mate, I'm serious. Look, I wanna help you out. You've got to, you've got to change." You know? And then he just hung up.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- EHEddie Hearn
And I thought, "Shit, okay, all right." But it's like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) We're having a mid-life crisis.
- EHEddie Hearn
But it's true, isn't it? What are you doing? What are you doing? I mean, all right, once it might be quite funny and I'll pick it up and you give me a bit. But, like, all day, every day, you know, because I'd hate to be one of those people that just wakes up every morning with no fire in their belly, with no passion, with nothing. And there are, by the way, that's 95% of the population.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
Many people. That's why it's so important to me here to create an environment at Matchroom for the, for the team where you enjoy being there. You know, we got, we get food together, we got a gym, we got a pool, we got ... We're all traveling away to events, we'll have a night out. We'll do that because you can't be in a job or a life where you're just flat. Wh- how, how am I gonna get the best out of you if you don't love what you do? And it's very difficult to have that same passion when it's not your business, you know? So, it's ... motivation's important,
- 48:19 – 54:10
I don't like being a celebrity
- EHEddie Hearn
but-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Frank, you know, Frank said to me, he said, uh, he said, uh, you know, "Eddie's a, Eddie's a businessman."
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's, that's where you came from. Your dad's a businessman too. And with this new age of social media and all the interviews you do on YouTube, and you are relentless with the interviews as well, by the way.
- EHEddie Hearn
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're like ... And I was, when I w- saw you in New York, uh, on that rooftop with, like, the nice garden stuff-
- EHEddie Hearn
Yes, yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... yeah, you were back to back to back doing those interviews with all these bloggers for three hours.... that's helped grow the business. It's why most people know Matchroom, eh, of- especially of this generation. But it's made you a celebrity. And Frank said to me, he said, "I don't think he's enjoying the celebrity thing," you know.
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I think a lot of people would be really, really surprised to hear that because, you know, people would- they think that you love it.
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They think you love the attention. I mean, promoters are in the business of attention, right? But from a personal perspective, apparently you don't like it. You don't like the celebrity.
- EHEddie Hearn
I didn't set out to be a ce-celebrity. You know, I set out to be a businessman. I set out to, um, continue the success that, that, that my dad built. But I do recognize that if I am well known, if I am a showman, if I am a celebrity, it will help me push my events, it will help me push the profile of fighters. You know, you get to a stage now where the industry haters might say, "Oh, well, it's ridiculous he's doing all these interviews. You know, he's more popular than most of his fighters." You know, more popular is a wrong word, well known th- than some of his fighters.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
But that's me, you know. And I look at the success of the UFC, I look at the growth of, of that business and Dana White, and every major fight sport, um, product has that lead guy. In WWE, it's Vince McMahon-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
... you know, in MMA, it's Dana White, and in boxing, I guess it's me or, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
... I want it to be me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Very true.
- EHEddie Hearn
So there's a method to the madness. And- but, you know, the book, the book was something that I wanted to do because I just thought it was funny that I would ever write a book, right? Because-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I don't think it's funny.
- EHEddie Hearn
No, but if you knew me at school and you knew... I just- it was more like... Hod had put it to me during- before lockdown.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- EHEddie Hearn
And when lockdown come, I panicked. And I was like, "Oh, and next..." You know, talk about being at home with your kids, now I'm at home with my kids and I've got no events and, "Oh." So I was just like, for those first two weeks, I was just... Right, we launched a fitness show with Sky that people could do at home, Fit & Fit. You know, I just said to the guys, "Yeah, get me that book deal. I'll write it now. Let's do the book now." And I wrote it in lockdown, you know, and, and, and I was just Zooms, more Zooms, more interviews because I, I just- I was just scared of not having that drive every single day of, you know, going out there and, and, and I think enjoy it It really does sound like an illness, you know. Well, yeah, it is an illness. It is an illness. Let's be honest, we're all sick, aren't we? I mean, like, you can't do... you can't wake up in the night every night and start writing emails, doing contracts, texting people, right? And then wake up at 7:00 and do the school run and then drive to work and do it all over again every single day, unless you're a little bit ill in the head. Right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You c- you can't actually be still. Like, so when you talked earlier about that cigar moment in the future-
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... sitting on that beach, I didn't believe you for a second, becau-
- EHEddie Hearn
Yeah, you're probably right, but I just- I'd like to think that, so at least what I'm telling the missus, that one day we'll be- we'll chill out. You know what I mean? But-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Could you imagine laying on a beach with a cigar like this, no emails, no nothing, just no fights coming up-
- 54:10 – 1:08:17
Selling Matchroom
- EHEddie Hearn
it's difficult to say.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And with the family businesses, they're a very special thing. And in the wor- in the world we live in today with these big global corporations and the public market's growing, it's very rare for a family business to withstand the temptation of acquisitions-
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... or going public or whatever. What ... Who cont- ... You don't have a son.
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right? And, uh, I'm wondering who continues the family business if you were to go down that route. Is it-
- EHEddie Hearn
No, well, that's-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... one of your daughters? ... that's a good point because that is the- the- the conversation, you know ... Ever since I started to understand business more-
- EHEddie Hearn
... for me, that, that is a natural progression of a family business to go family business, you know, investment or acquisition or IPO. And that's what you do, because how do you... I, I have, I have aspirations for this business to grow globally and to st- be staging events in every major territory in the world. You know, to do that does require huge investment, does, does require, you know, management, it... And we can do it, but that's not our specialty. Our specialty is creating great live events for our broadcasters and fans. Okay? So my dad has always said to me, "I would never ever, ever take investment for the business, float the business, or sell the business." And I've always, over the years, gone, "Yeah, but, you know-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- EHEddie Hearn
"... it's gotta... We've gotta get to..." And, and actually, the, the, the son thing's quite interesting. You know, I've been blessed with two amazing daughters. Of course, every man would quite like a son. Didn't work out. That's what God gave me. But there is... Uh, it's an interesting point because my end goal, if I had a son... And listen, only 41. Who knows?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yes.
- EHEddie Hearn
But I think it would be more, you know, here we go again down the line kind of thing. With me, I would quite like to end the journey with my dad. Do you know what I mean? To say, "Look at what we..." You know, not it's gone, but, "Look at where we started, look at where we finished." Because it's very difficult. And I, and I take the interest from, you know, hedge funds and, you know, investment funds with unbelievable amount of compliment to say, "Wow." You know? And the, the calls are coming in non-stop because they appreciate the model of growth where, when we talk about one sport, one promoter, one belt, you know, that mindset, it's a carbon copy of the UFC. Now, the UFC sold 4.6 billion. There is no reason why boxing with, with so much more history, with so much more credibility with fans and broadcasters can't replicate that model, and actually be even more valuable than the UFC business. And I'm really the only chance it has to do it. It's not gonna be Bob Arum.
- SBSteven Bartlett
No.
- EHEddie Hearn
It's not gonna be Don King. It's not gonna be Frank Warren. It's gonna be me. So all of a sudden, I've been giving interviews like that, and then the calls are coming, "Well, right, we want..." You know, and, and it's like, guys, we're not... We don't need it. We're not... If I wanted to go and get funding, if I wanted to go and float, I'd do it tomorrow.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- EHEddie Hearn
But it's a big, it's a big, you know, head-butting system with me and the, me and my dad. And, you know, he's starting to look... And I'm just saying, we can't just be blind to it. It's a natural progression for any business in terms of growth to, to look at these models and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
But is that why you're doing the business? Because, you know, there's a bit... The happiness you've got from this business, I th- I would guess... And I run a... I ran a public business until recently.
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, much of it has-
- EHEddie Hearn
Aggravation. No, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh. Loads of bullshit you don't necessarily want, right?
- EHEddie Hearn
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quarterly reporting.
- EHEddie Hearn
Of course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You gotta hit the numbers. If you don't-
- EHEddie Hearn
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... then you gotta do something short term that's not necessarily in the long-term interest of the business, right?
- EHEddie Hearn
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So I, I, I, I'm almost quite jealous of the setup you have, the control you have.
Episode duration: 1:08:37
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