Esther Perel: The 3 Attachment Styles & Why You’re Struggling With Love!

1. 0:00 – 3:02

   Intro

   1. EPEsther Perel0:00

      Do you know a single person who would treat their business the way that people treat their relationships? The business would be dead. Love is not a permanent state of enthusiasm that just exists.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett0:10

      Esther, why are you shouting at me? (laughs)

   3. NANarrator0:12

      (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett0:13

      Esther Perel.

   5. EPEsther Perel0:14

      The most famous relationship therapist on the planet.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett0:17

      Podcaster. Best-selling author and- She had one of the most viewed TED Talks of all time.

   7. EPEsther Perel0:22

      In order to want sex, it needs to be worth wanting. So when women don't want sex, is it really that they have less desire or is it that they don't have desire for the sex they have? And this fear of rejection is one of the most important emotional vulnerabilities for many men. It's part of what is so alluring in porn, which takes care of three major dilemmas around sex. The first one is (censored) , and this leads to lying and cheating.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett0:46

      I want to know how I avoid getting to that place.

   9. EPEsther Perel0:48

      People end up in a rut because they're so lazy, so complacent. If you give the best of yourself at work and then you bring the leftovers home, taking out your phone and not present, slowly your relationship degrades. Because the more he refuses to be present, the more alone she feels. And the more alone she feels, the more she tests him to see, "Are you really not there for me?" It's a figure-eight loop. And whether it's money, kids, sex, every topic could become part of the loop. But the quality of your life is determined by the quality of your relationships. Without it, we die.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett1:23

       What do we do about it, though?

   11. EPEsther Perel1:24

       Well, this is one of the best things I can offer to people is that-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett1:31

       Every now and then I meet someone on this podcast that I classify as a wizard or witch, and I say that because the impact they have on me is so profound, so life-changing, so pivoting in terms of what I thought I knew, that I look at them like a witch or a wizard. I just think, "How does this person seem to just know everything?" Esther Perel is one of those people. She's magic. What she knows about relationships, love, sex, and everything in between, will both blow your mind, inspire you, and unlock a bunch of answers that I think the vast majority of us are currently looking for. I've spent 10 years thinking that relationships are slightly confusing, they're a bit of a black box. I've wondered why some people are needy and others are anxious in relationships. Why do some people in relationships run away and others chase them? All of these answers, these black boxes as it relates to relationships, love, and sex, Esther has the answer to, and I can't wait for you to listen to this episode. It might just change your life. And before this episode begins, one favor to ask you. You probably know what this favor is if you listen to this podcast frequently. If you hit the subscribe button on this podcast, which roughly 58% of you have, then I promise you, we will do everything in our power to make this show better and better for you. That's the only favor I'll ever ask you. Do we have a deal? Thank you. (instrumental music plays)

2. 3:02 – 6:17

   Improving & Reviving People’s Relationships

   1. SBSteven Bartlett3:02

      Esther, what is the mission you're on? You know, we spoke before we started recording about a plethora of different subjects that you're innately curious about. If you were to summarize all of those subjects, what is Esther Perel's mission?

   2. EPEsther Perel3:18

      The quality of your life is determined by the quality of your relationships. And relationships are often not taken very seriously as a subject of inquiry.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett3:34

      Why?

   4. EPEsther Perel3:36

      Because, um, in various worlds it has certain attitude, right? So in, the easiest one would be in the business world. Relationships have usually been seen as soft skills, fluff, feminine skills, or feminine concerns. Feminine concerns you can always hold in high regard, but then disregard in reality. (laughs)

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:59

      Mm-hmm.

   6. EPEsther Perel4:00

      I think that for so long, relationships were structured, organized through social order, religion, communal structures. And so people didn't really have to think about them so much. They were very, very codified. They still are codified in most parts of the world, but in our Western world where we have dismantled all the structures that used to define relationships, relationships are going through a massive, uh, transformation, a massive makeover. And, um, and we don't necessarily have the skills of how to deal with all these changes that are literally happening under our feet. So my mission is to guide people, to help people make sense of what their relational lives are about, friendship, at work, romantic relationships, family ties, and to develop understandings, insights, skills, to be able to handle what is probably, in my mind, one of the most important dimensions of our life. Without it, we die.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett5:04

      Without it, we die?

   8. EPEsther Perel5:05

      Mm-hmm. Or we don't die a natural death necessarily, but you, it's a death to the soul. Y- you k- ... A life without relationships, I mean, there are a few hermits, but the vast majority of us are socially wired. We exist in relationships. We define ourselves in relationships. I know who I am by being with you. I mean, who am I outside of that? It's like, you know, it's in the presence of the other that we discover who we are. Alone, there's no, there's nothing to bounce off of and so I am passionate about the relational lives of people, the challenges of relationships in the modern world. And as we enter the 21st century, and as machines are entering to replace people, I'm interested in how people heal from broken relationships or from relationships that broke them. Um, that's the mission.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett6:02

      And you've spent a long time working with people that want better relationships in a therapeutic sort of environment as a therapist, right?

   10. EPEsther Perel6:10

       Mm-hmm. Yes. I, I have been a psychotherapist for more than 40 years.

3. 6:17 – 13:16

   The Impact of Childhood on Relationship Patterns

   1. EPEsther Perel6:17

   2. SBSteven Bartlett6:17

      I'm so compelled. I wanna start where we all start, which is with our childhood and the role that plays in the relationships we then go on to have or not to have. I imagine most of the couples and people you see, you can understand the way they are today as adults based on what they experienced when they were younger or what they learned?

   3. EPEsther Perel6:36

      A lot. A lot. But we are not just what happened to us, we are also who we become, and sometimes we become on the basis of what happened to us. And when you ask people sometimes, "What are some of your most important inner resources?" those very resources come from some of the miseries of their childhood, too. So, it's not linear. It's not bad leads to bad.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett7:06

      Mm-hmm.

   5. EPEsther Perel7:06

      It's that some absence, some, um, deprivation can lead to an, an acute awareness of something that makes you become the exact opposite. It's th- it's a dynamic dialogue with your childhood. It's not just the determinism, th- the determinism that your childhood will determine what's gonna happen to you later. I think that all of us, you know... I mean, this is one of the many, many frameworks around childhood, but the one that I wrote about in Mating in Captivity was to say that we all need security, and we all also need adventure, or change, or freedom, and that some of us will come out of our childhood wanting more safety, more protection, more connection, more grounding, and some of us will come out of our childhood wanting more space, more freedom, more individuality, more personal expression. And that doesn't mean it's static. I mean, the beauty of us is that we are forever changing creatures, and we can rewrite the story. We can't change the story as it occurred to us, but we can change its legacy, its meaning, its influence in, in the most extraordinary ways.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett8:27

      I mean, how many people have you... How many couples have you sat with?

   7. EPEsther Perel8:30

      Thousands. (laughs)

   8. SBSteven Bartlett8:31

      You must start to see patterns emerging when your... once, you know, you have two couple- uh, a couple that's sat there, w- they've got some dysfunction in their relationships. The guy or the woman starts saying, describing their childhood and saying that their parents were never around.

   9. EPEsther Perel8:48

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett8:49

       You must start to see some patterns in how that caused dysfunction and causes dysfunction later in life. Is there any patterns that we can use as stereotypes or hold onto with childhood-

   11. EPEsther Perel9:00

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett9:00

       ... separation, abandonment?

   13. EPEsther Perel9:00

       But I wouldn't even call them as stereotypes. I think there are a lot of patterns, but the pattern is not just what you bring from your childhood and how it manifests now. The pattern is what two people create. That's the pattern. So, a pattern could be, okay, let's say I grew up, and I felt that I was left to fend for myself, that all of it was on me, that I was taking care of my younger siblings. I'm thinking of a recent episode of the, of Where Should We Begin?. And, you know, when he's absent, when he doesn't respond to a request, she doesn't just think, "Oh, sh- he doesn't wanna do what I just asked him to do." She instantly goes into the, "I'm always alone. There's never been anybody there for me. I've always been alone. My life is never gonna change. Why is it always me who has to do all of this? I carry the burden." And the pattern is what she asks that makes him react, that makes her amplify, and it's what I do that makes you be and do what you do that makes me be what I do. It's a figure eight. That's the pattern. And the more he refuses or, and, th- to just, um, do it, let's say, and the more alone she feels, and the more alone she feels, and the more she tests him every time to see if the next time she asks for something, he's gonna actually respond in kind. And since he feels the pressure and the test, and he comes from a story that says, "Nobody's gonna tell me what to do..."

   14. SBSteven Bartlett10:38

       So-

   15. EPEsther Perel10:39

       That's a dance. So, couples have dances, and a dance is how you see one person trigger or evoke in the other a survival strategy. His survival strategy is, "Nobody tells me what to do," and that survival strategy is gonna then trigger in her the vulnerability of, "Well, if no- if you won't do anything I ask, then I'm again alone." And then, when that person feels that alone, her survival strategy is to go and knock at the door and see, "Are you really not there for me?" The dance between the vulnerability and the survival strategy is one of the most common patterns in a relationship. And what's really essential to understand is that what makes the difference is the form. It is figuring out, what is this figure eight look like in this couple? Not the specific detail, because once you've noticed the loop, it doesn't matter what they're talking about. Every topic could become a part of the loop, whether it's money, kids, sex, in-laws, trips. (laughs) It will look alike. If I always think I'm alone, and I can't count on you, and I feel le- abandoned and let down, then that becomes the filter with which I enter most of these conversations. And if your thing is, "Nobody pushes me, and nobody imposes their will on me," because I, you know, have been telling my dad for a long time that he's done being the boss of me-... this is the f- the filter. So you look for those filters, and then you begin to see, you know, it's like music. If you really listen to a sentence from a music to a phrase, after the first four notes, you have a good idea of what are the next four notes.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett12:33

       Mm-hmm.

   17. EPEsther Perel12:33

       That's how you do pattern recognition in couples.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett12:36

       Me and my partner are going through this, I think, at the moment. We've figured out what our figure of eight, our pattern is.

   19. EPEsther Perel12:41

       Right, tell me.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett12:42

       It's exactly what you just said.

   21. EPEsther Perel12:43

       Which one?

   22. SBSteven Bartlett12:44

       I'm the guy, she's the woman in the scenario.

   23. EPEsther Perel12:46

       So, you're the nobody tells me-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett12:49

       I'm the ones to... feels like everything's threatening my independence, you know?

   25. EPEsther Perel12:54

       Right.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett12:54

       And my... And I don't like to be told what to do, as in...

   27. EPEsther Perel12:58

       And so you also interpret any request or invitation as a command.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett13:03

       As a threat on my independence.

   29. EPEsther Perel13:04

       Right, as a command-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett13:05

       Yeah.
4. 13:16 – 24:41

   Navigating Couple Dynamics

   1. EPEsther Perel13:16

      then?

   2. SBSteven Bartlett13:17

      She (laughs) she goes str- comes, she, uh, it's almost like... I'll give you an example. I'll be sat at home after work.

   3. EPEsther Perel13:25

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett13:25

      I've come home. It's maybe 9:00 PM. I'll quickly throw out my laptop, and I'm doing some work, um, whatever. She says something to me, and 'cause I'm kinda busy here, I give like a half acknowledgement. And because I've, like, not turned away from the laptop or because I've not given my full attention, she'll then start, like, asking me compl- seemingly completely random questions that she wouldn't ordi- ordinarily ask me. "What do you think of this?" Picking up something random in the house. Um, "W- what, uh, w- what, do you want a drink?" There's literally a cup of water already in front of me.

   5. EPEsther Perel13:54

      And you know what that does, right?

   6. SBSteven Bartlett13:56

      What, mm-hmm.

   7. EPEsther Perel13:57

      The more, the more we call this.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett13:58

      Yeah, so the more she starts doing it to me, the more I ge- start giving a blunt response.

   9. EPEsther Perel14:01

      Yes, right.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett14:02

       'Cause... (laughs)

   11. EPEsther Perel14:02

       But what it means when you say the more, the more is that we make the other.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett14:08

       Hm.

   13. EPEsther Perel14:09

       You are creating a knocker.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett14:12

       Yeah. Yeah.

   15. EPEsther Perel14:13

       And she's creating a withholder. The more she knocks, the more you withdraw or withhold. The more you withdraw, half attention, uh-huh, you know, artificial intimacy, and the more she experiences you as absent, and she comes looking for you b- in full force. And what that says is that we create the other person. We contribute to making them the very thing we don't want. If you wanted her to not do this, you could change this in a minute.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett14:50

       How?

   17. EPEsther Perel14:52

       By basically stopping for a moment, saying, "This ritual of acknowledging each other at the end of a long day means a lot." And actually doesn't just mean a lot to her because you don't have to deal with it because she makes sure that you don't get forgotten. If she w- was not coming and she didn't dis- and she disappeared for six days in a row and never came to check in with you, you would begin to wonder what's going on.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett15:18

       (laughs)

   19. EPEsther Perel15:18

       So, she holds the flame for you.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett15:20

       Yeah.

   21. EPEsther Perel15:21

       If you, if you stopped, actually, and it's nine o'clock, you've had your long date, you've been on your own, you've done all your stuff, and you actually said, "Come here," and you took literally 30 seconds for a beautiful kiss, a hug, a gaze, a moment, and then you said, "I'll be done in probably 20 minutes. I'm excited to spend some time together," you would relax her nervous system. She would not be (pants) you know, after you, and you would actually feel like your boundaries have been respected. But what happens in a couple is that you want her to change. You want her to stop annoying you and do what you do. "Doesn't she see that I'm busy? I'm almost done, you know? Why doesn't she wait?" And so we always think the other will change, and then my life will improve. But if you actually want your life to change or your relationship dynamic to change, you could do it like this because you're the one who is cont- you and her, right? It's the same. I would say the exact same thing to her, by the way. This is so symmetric. So, I would say to her, "If you actually want him to not push you away, here's what you can do. If you want her to not keep knocking, then here is what you can do." Because when you do what you do, you are increasing her knocking.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett16:33

       I've noticed that.

   23. EPEsther Perel16:34

       This is fundamental to couples' thinking. It says we are not essential creatures. We become someone as part of the dynamic that we are in with another someone.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett16:47

       Mm-hmm.

   25. EPEsther Perel16:48

       This is... When people begin to understand that in couples therapy, things begin to change. It's like a light bulb goes on.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett16:58

       I also really resonate with the subpoint you made that if she stopped knocking, I'd be like, "What the hell's going on?"

   27. EPEsther Perel17:04

       That's right.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett17:04

       And I'd, and I'd eventually end up lonely and unhappy. And you're right. She is carrying the, um, as you called it, like the flame for the relationship.

   29. EPEsther Perel17:11

       Yes, she's the pursuer.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett17:12

       Yeah.
5. 24:41 – 31:57

   Invest in Your Relationship

   1. EPEsther Perel24:41

   2. SBSteven Bartlett24:41

      Our relationships, you know, I think we all, certainly I think I have for much of my life, and I say that because I look at my actions, so what I might say is different to how I think I've behaved over the last, I don't know, 10, 10, 15 years. We see them as kind of an afterthought to everything else in many regards. So, the amount of effort I put into my businesses and to the podcast and to every little detail, the creativity, the thought, the brainstorming, all of that, relationships, we kind of all just think they're just, they just happen, and if it doesn't happen perfectly then it's broken and I need to find a new one.

   3. EPEsther Perel25:16

      Yeah. That's a terrible way to think. I mean, and everybody knows it. If you give the best of yourself at work, if you bring the leftovers home, if when you come home you say, "I've given everything I had, now I'm just putting my feet on the table. I just need to chill. I don't wanna make any effort." You know, slowly, your relationship degrades, period, and then there's all kinds of ways it ends. None of them are particularly joyful. And, um, basically if people were able to put a little bit of creativity, attention, attention into their relationships, as they do with their customers or their guests, relationships would be doing a lot better, and my profession would be seeing a lot less people. I mean, there's no doubt. And why are people so lazy, so complacent, so unimaginative with their relationships at home? I mean, I see so many people, when you g- like here, you know, you're not taking out your phone. You're not h- you're looking at me, you're paying attention on occasion, you look for your questions and where we go, but basically you're, you're with me. But at home, you're, if you do this, or this-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett26:34

      Looking at my phone.

   5. EPEsther Perel26:35

      You know? Um, and, and then when the person tells you something really important, you go, "Uh-huh. Uh-huh." You know, and you're kind of there, but not present. And that's the beginning of a kind of modern loneliness, actually, is that this idea that you can share something really important to someone who is half there, half there, and I think that that's what's happening with a lot of younger people these days, is that they experience a lot of half thereness, and that begins to cultivate a real sense of loneliness that has to do not with, "I'm physically alone." That has to do with, "Do I matter? Who hears me? Who cares? Who pays attention? Who notices?" You know? So, I, I, I, sometimes the advice is very banal, you know? It's to tell people, "Put your freaking phone down. Take an hour and put your phone down." And-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett27:33

      But I'm busy.

   7. EPEsther Perel27:34

      Huh?

   8. SBSteven Bartlett27:34

      But I'm busy.

   9. EPEsther Perel27:35

      Well, th- you will be busy, and there won't be a relationship. Sooner or later there won't be a relationship. It's not difficult. You can wait, you can wait for the kids to grow up if there are kids involved, things like that, but in the end, it, it, there isn't.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett27:51

       Just because someone was on their phone?

   11. EPEsther Perel27:54

       Well, it's not just th- the on the phone, it's on the phone means I am continuously saying, "Something is more important than you. We come last."

   12. SBSteven Bartlett28:04

       Right.

   13. EPEsther Perel28:04

       "We're a cactus. We don't need to be watered. We can survive in the desert." It's called... There's a term I've been using for this that is, I borrow from something else, it's called ambiguous loss. Have you ever heard of this term?

   14. SBSteven Bartlett28:19

       Ambiguous loss?

   15. EPEsther Perel28:20

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett28:21

       No.

   17. EPEsther Perel28:22

       Ambiguous loss is a term that was developed by a colleague, Pauline Boss, a wonderful psychologist, when she talked about what happens when you have some, a parent, for example, that has Alzheimer. They are physically present, but they are psychologically gone. They're emotionally absent, and you can't really mourn them because they're still physically there, but you're caught in this in-between, in this ambiguous loss. On the other side, you can have somebody who is deployed, hostage, miscarriage, they are emotionally very present, but they are physically absent. In both cases, it's an ambiguous loss. You can't... Are they still there or are they gone? Who knows? When we live with this phone thing, when we are... Because you've been at work, you've been at the c- computer, you come home, you think, "Ah, I'm so happy to finally let go of the computer," you turn on the TV. You turn on the TV and then you turn on the phone at the same time. You watching here, you watching there, and there's a person next to you, and most likely they often do the same thing in the end too, and gradually, you know, there is less and less of a thread of conversation, of connection, of joy, of sex, of intimacy, all of what you know. That becomes ambiguous loss. Somebody is there, but they're not really present. I'm, I'm, uh, I'm, you know, do I... Eh, is there a difference between me and the sofa? It's comfy. It's routine. You sit on me. But comfy and routine does, do not give us joy or meaning or relevance or connection, and that's what we still seem to want. So, it means saying to people, you know, it's actually not very, very complicated. What did people do for c- centuries? They took walks. That's one of the few times you can't click. (laughs) So take a walk. Don't sit. Don't try to do, you know... Take a walk around the block, and just be in motion, then you're parallel, you know, it's not face-to-face, it's side-by-side, and you be, and you can talk about the day.... if you, instead of just saying, "And, stop, stop, stop," you just said, you know, "Let's go for a walk." It's London, but still, you can, you can, you know, and then you do half an hour walk. It will, you'll come back to me and you tell me what it will do, but it, it's amazing how this small interventions that are playful, creative, not digging, change the dynamic of the relationship. Because she is only pursuing you, in part, because of how much you are withdrawing. You change, she change. If you wanna change the other, change yourself. Once you understood the figure eight and how we create the other, you understand that if you do something else, sooner or later, they do something else, too. So if you wanna change the other, change you. This is part of the question you asked me, right?

   18. SBSteven Bartlett31:40

       Mm-hmm.

   19. EPEsther Perel31:40

       What are some of the essential understandings of working with relational systems? This is true at work, in companies, this is true in intimate relationship. This is not just for romantic love. This is foundations of relational systems. Feedback loop, it's called in cybernetics.

6. 31:57 – 34:51

   Reviving the Spark

   1. EPEsther Perel31:57

   2. SBSteven Bartlett31:57

      So many busy couples can feel the spark in their relationship waning away slowly, but work isn't necessarily the first place you look. Like, pulling out the phone at dinner isn't necessarily the place people look, because that seems so small, so they aim at bigger things. They'll say, I don't know, something bigger, but do you believe... Are you saying that you believe a lot of it, much of it often starts with those small moments of disconnection where the p- person basically ends up becoming-

   3. EPEsther Perel32:27

      Yes.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett32:27

      ... the sofa?

   5. EPEsther Perel32:28

      The Gottmans call them bids for connection.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett32:30

      Bids for connection?

   7. EPEsther Perel32:31

      Bids. You know, it's the little things, it's the, the difference between turning towards someone or turning away. You know, when you read something, there's a classic example they give. When you read something, do you actually say, "Hey, did you read this? Let me send you this article"? That's a bid for connection. It's not a big declaration, but it says, "We're in this together." When I see something that's interesting that I think you would like to read as well, I share it with you. I'm thinking of you. I know you exist even if I'm not with you.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett33:04

      Do you know what my partner said s- to me something about a year ago, and I, and it always stayed with me 'cause I thought-

   9. EPEsther Perel33:08

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett33:08

       ... that's such a strange thing to say. She said to me when we were in conflict resolution, so we were talking about things, um, she said, "Do you know? When I send you things on Instagram, in Instagram DMs, like, I'll be out here now in New York-"

   11. EPEsther Perel33:22

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett33:22

       So, she'll, she'll, if she sees something interesting on Instagram, she sends it to me.

   13. EPEsther Perel33:25

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett33:26

       She goes, "You've stopped acknowledging it." I used to just, like, double tap on it or make a comment back.

   15. EPEsther Perel33:30

       Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett33:30

       She goes, "You've stopped, you've stopped acknowledging it." And I thought, "Why does that matter?" Why does it, like, you send me something, I watch the funny video. I crack on with my day.

   17. EPEsther Perel33:41

       Because it's like when you receive a birthday gift, do you think?

   18. SBSteven Bartlett33:46

       Yeah.

   19. EPEsther Perel33:47

       When you buy a birthday gift, is it important to give it?

   20. SBSteven Bartlett33:49

       Yeah.

   21. EPEsther Perel33:50

       Okay, that's reason. I mean, i- uh, how would she know that you watched it if there is no acknowledgement? And the acknowledgement is not about the video or the DM. The acknowledgement is, we share something.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett34:06

       Well, it's even worse 'cause it says seen on Instagram, so it says that-

   23. EPEsther Perel34:08

       Yes.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett34:08

       ... I've seen it.

   25. EPEsther Perel34:09

       Yes, but that, but that, but the seen, that means that I have seen the video. The acknowledgement is we are in s- we are part of a thread. We're connected. She's absolutely right. So in that sense, when the people lose the spark, it is a lot of these small details that people say so much in the beginning, you know, all the positive stuff that people ooze, and it- it's, it's actually only more important with time, rather than less important with time. The, the death of a co relationship is when people take each other for granted, and when you stop acknowledging those things, but it- it is part of the mechanisms of taking for granted.

7. 34:51 – 38:03

   The Words You Need To Use In Your Relationship

   1. SBSteven Bartlett34:51

      I had a really good friend of mine, um, sit with me a couple of weeks ago, and she has been married to a CEO. She's also a CEO herself, and she's just going through a divorce now. And I sat with her in America, and she said to me, "You know, he was very busy. I was very busy. We had this kid, and I just think, I don't, I don't really know what happened. Along the way, it just seems like we fell out of love." And ever s- since he- she said that to me, it made me think that it is often quite a gradual process, this drifting apart. And this kid coming into the picture as well complicates that. The, what- what she said to me was, you know, "We would, we, we both had our businesses to take care of, and then we had the kid as well, so the relationship was, I guess, the residual beneficiary. It got whatever was left, and that's caused this divorce now." And the child is, I guess, gonna have to live in two different homes.

   2. EPEsther Perel35:49

      So, I have two, two thoughts about this, you know? The first thing is, um, this is the first time in history that the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple. If the couple doesn't nurture itself, there is no family. You don't stay married because you have to. You, women have an economic independence, uh, like, in her case, at least, uh, to be able to leave. You have divorce laws. You can go. So, the only thing that holds the couple together, you don't get excommunicated, none of it, is the relationship quality. If you don't have that, there is no family. Here's your child. And the second thing is when she says, "We just fell out of love," that's not the way it goes. Love is a verb, and you conjugate it actively in many tenses. It's a practice. If you stop doing all those things that you're telling me, the acknowledgements, the, the, the hellos, the thank yous, the, um-... the sharing of the le- of the, of the, the videos, et cetera. All of that cushioning, when that thins out, it means that you have not been conjugating the verb. Love is not a permanent state of enthusiasm that just exists. Do you know a single person who would treat their business the way that some people treat their relationships? The business would be dead. This is the, and ev- and, and, uh, you know, I say it with kind of emphatically, but I'm thinking, I'm not saying anything somebody doesn't know. You have, you, you take that kind of lazy attitude towards your shop, end of story. And therefore, end of relationship. But it's not that it just happens, it's that they stopped doing, saying, expressing, showing, feeling, giving, receiving, sharing. Those are the verbs. Wanting, imagining, playing, experiencing, exploring, those are verbs that have to do with relationships and love.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett37:59

      On our first point about this is being the first time in history where

8. 38:03 – 46:36

   Transforming Conflict into Connection

   1. SBSteven Bartlett38:03

      the health and happiness of the relationship determined whether the family stayed together, not the Church-

   2. EPEsther Perel38:07

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett38:08

      ... or some, some other external pressure, could this go to explain why people are having less and less kids as well, because they don't feel as secure as they once did? I think there's a little bit about-

   4. EPEsther Perel38:18

      No.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett38:18

      ... my, by rela- 'Cause with my partner, I feel like she's said, or indirectly said, that she will be, she'll feel happy and safe to have a child when she feels, h- like, more secure in the relationship. And, you know, I imagine once upon a time, s- the sec- you just, and knew that you were gonna s- stay with them regardless.

   6. EPEsther Perel38:41

      And you also knew that if you had sex, you had a good chance of being pregnant.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett38:46

      True.

   8. EPEsther Perel38:46

      (laughs)

   9. SBSteven Bartlett38:46

      Yeah.

   10. EPEsther Perel38:47

       That's the first and foremost big change that took place, so. And sex was mostly a woman's marital duty, not that long ago. So, you know, um, I think that many people, the lesser they have, the more children they have, because children becomes an expression of abundance, of care, of more hands to help, of the riches of a family. Um, people who have less food have more children. (laughs) It's not people who are more insecure or live in more precarious situations, I don't think that that is the reason. I think that there is a certain kind of, um, attitude towards not wanting to give up the comforts of one's life, the freedom, the comings and goings that makes some people not want to have children. And then there's also the fact that, for a long time, you didn't have a choice, and some people today wanna exercise that choice, you know. But you talking about the love that goes, and you asked me before, you know, one of the subjects that I'm very interested in, in light of that is conflict. And I called the course that I just created Turning Conflict into Connection, because it's easy to look at your situation and then begin to see the strife and the arguments and the bickering and the conflict, and to focus on the conflict, but this conflict is occurring because there is a fraught connection, there's a tear in the fabric of connection. And that too, if you say to people, "Would you run a business that allowed for that kind of conflict and bickering to take place?" Nobody. And, and yet you normalize it in your relationship, you think that that's, that's an okay thing. It's like, uh, I mean, if I gave you an assignment at the end of our conversation, I would say, "Of all the things we talked about, I wa- I, I would love for you to choose three things that you're gonna do differently, change, and that you know would improve the relationship." You don't have to go look very far. You've already listed a half a dozen. And, and then you stay with it. You h- you, you commit yourself to it. You don't do it contingent on what she does! You don't say, "Oh, I didn't do that, and she still did the same." Give it a time, and hold yourself to it. Eh, you will see, relationship is not something that happens out there; it's actually s- something that we are very much in charge of, uh, creatively, like a business. And by the way, a business is made up of relationships as well. Products, but relationships. Leadership is relationships. It's vision, it's efficiencies, et cetera, it's operations, but it is also relationships. If those don't work, you can have the best product.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett41:47

       If I wanna be a master in conflict resolution, in my romantic relationships, man and woman, let's just use that.

   12. EPEsther Perel41:55

       Two men, two women, then-

   13. SBSteven Bartlett41:56

       Two men, two women.

   14. EPEsther Perel41:56

       ... everybody.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett41:57

       Is there any differences between, between the way that genders are typically approach conflict resolution? Because there's stereotypes, right, that men don't wanna talk, and that women wanna talk.

   16. EPEsther Perel42:11

       Yes, but when you have two women, there's often one that doesn't wanna talk as well.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett42:14

       Okay.

   18. EPEsther Perel42:14

       I think there is gender, there is culture, there is linguistics, there's a lot of different things that play themselves out, but it's not, uh, in straight couples, you will attribute certain things to gender that in other couples, you will attribute to roles.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett42:34

       Okay.

   20. EPEsther Perel42:35

       Because the behaviors are not that different. So we, there's a whole... Um, I think one of the most important thing is that instead of asking, "What are we fighting about?" ask yourself, "What are we fighting for?"Like when you go into the bickering around, you know, "You see I'm busy. Why are you bringing up all these stupid questions now that you..." What are you fighting for? What she's fighting for is to connect, to have some time with you, to have attention, to, to not just kind of go through the day, do everything, and let this thing kind of die on the vine.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett43:19

       Hmm.

   22. EPEsther Perel43:20

       You know, there are relationships that are now dead, and there are relationships that are alive.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett43:29

       Tell me the distinction.

   24. EPEsther Perel43:30

       Same as a business. Well, you can be, you can survive or you can thrive. You can survive and go through the motions, or you can be alive, erotic, radiant, vibrant, vital, creative, curious. I- i- it's those experiences, you know. Now, we use eroticism in, as a life source, not just in the sexual sense of the word. That aliveness m- gives you energy for a lot of things that you do elsewhere. You would not be here the same way if she wasn't there. And how do you cultivate aliveness? How do you cultivate the erotic? Is essential. So, when I say to people, "What are you fighting for?" usually people fight for about three things. They fight for trust, they fight to feel like the peop- the other person has their back, they fight for recognition, to be valued, and they fight for control. They want to feel that their needs, their b- beliefs, their expectations have priority too. Control, trust, recognition. Those are probably three of the main things people fight for. But it doesn't look like that. It looks like they're fighting over, you know, money, or time together, or how often they have sex, or, you know, that kind of stuff. So, that's a big one about how you deal with conflict. What is productive conflict and what is destructive conflict? Because conflict in itself is intrinsic to all relationships. People fight. People wanna have equity, they wanna have justice, they wanna be heard, they wanna, you know. So, it, it's a useful thing. But we all know what fighting looks like that is not useful, and that is destructive, and that harms you, and that you've seen when you are a kid, and that s- travels with you for the rest of your life. So we, we know all of those versions too. Um, and I think that these days, we live in a society that is also more and more conflict avoidant. We really don't know how to g- we have so less, much less face-to-face with other people. There's a question that I have loved asking recently that has to do with conflict. When you grew up, did you play freely on the street?

   25. SBSteven Bartlett45:59

       Yeah.

   26. EPEsther Perel46:00

       Okay. Do you know, m- d- you don't have kids, right?

   27. SBSteven Bartlett46:05

       No.

   28. EPEsther Perel46:06

       But you have friends with little ones?

   29. SBSteven Bartlett46:08

       Yeah, my, my brother has three kids.

   30. EPEsther Perel46:10

       Okay.
9. 46:36 – 49:27

   Challenges of Connection in the Next Generations

   1. EPEsther Perel46:36

      free play with other kids with whom you learned friction, rubbing, fighting, making up, competing, collaborating, being jealous, making alliances, breaking alliances, recreating it. You learned a ton of social skills and dealing with conflict and disagreement and reuniting and all of that. This entire universe of experimentation that children had, gone. And you really don't learn it by playing games on a screen. So, we find ourselves a little bit socially atrophied. Then comes the pandemic, then comes the virtualization of our lives. There's a lot of things come, come, come, coming together here, and we are more and more unable to deal with conflict, and we polarize. People keep telling you, "How do you stay connected with people who disagree with you, who have different points of view, different politics, different belief systems, et cetera?" So we are conflict avoidant, we lack the social skills, we are socially atrophied, and we polarize.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett47:47

      And what's the cure?

   3. EPEsther Perel47:49

      I mean, I think that a major piece of it is, um, and I hope Alpha Generation is actually showing us a little more of that, is, you know, close the screen and go outside and play and meet people in real, in whatever version, two groups, sports, no sports. But it's about, it's not about structure activities. It's about happenstance, serendipity, chance. Chance is an essential piece of our life. Why is this so important? Because if everything is controlled, everything is predictable, every technology is trying to give you a polished, friction-free, uh, answer to every problem that you have, you learn to not tolerate uncertainty. And if you can't tolerate uncertainty, you become increasingly more anxious. And if you become increasingly more anxious, we're gonna talk about the mental health crisis. And this mental health crisis doesn't come from nowhere. It's connected to a whole bunch of things that are happening in the world around us. Let your kids go and have sleepovers. Connect with other people. Don't just stay in your little nuclear system.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett48:59

      Aren't younger generations less resilient, in your view, because they didn't get to play on the street?

   5. EPEsther Perel49:05

      ... they are definitely less able to deal with, um, with disagreement, divergences of opinions, conflict. They polarize, but so do other peop- uh, older people too. There is definitely more polarization because they... But what they do show is a

10. 49:27 – 51:19

    Are Younger Generations Less Resilient?

    1. EPEsther Perel49:27

       lot increased levels of anxiety, um, increased levels of all kinds of other symptomatologies of, around mental health, from eating disorders, you n- you name it, that start earlier and earlier, difficulty experimenting, making mistakes, not being so perfectionistic, not attributing everything to themselves as, "I'm not enough, I'm not enough." Like, there's a whole manufactured insecurity going on. So those things, yes, I think that you notice it, uh, we notice it, parents notice it, teachers notice it. You know? Do I... I think we could say that there is less resilience, but I, I think that that's a dangerous statements, because there are plenty of kids who are extraordinarily resilient in very, very challenging circumstances. (laughs) I would not wanna say younger kids these days, you know? But I do think that they struggle with certain things. Uncertainty is essential. You can't innovate without uncertainty.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett50:30

       Without an appetite for it.

    3. EPEsther Perel50:31

       Yes.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett50:32

       Yeah.

    5. EPEsther Perel50:32

       You need to be able to take risks. You need to be able to take chances. You need to be able to try out certain things. If it instantly becomes, you know, "I'm afraid to fail. I cannot. I have to know before I even try. I have to know in advance," et cetera, et cetera, we, it, it doesn't just affect one individual.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett50:53

       Why did you write this book, Mating in Captivity? You could have written about anything, but for some reason, you felt compelled enough to take on this subject of unlocking erotic intelligence. Why, why did you write about this?

    7. EPEsther Perel51:06

       At the time, this book is 17 years ago, it still, it lives, uh, uh, as if it was yesterday. Um, I guess that, that means it

11. 51:19 – 56:44

    Eroticism

    1. EPEsther Perel51:19

       touched something that had a timelessness to it, which was really, how do we reconcile the two sets of fundamental human needs that we have never wanted to reconcile in one relationship? Our need for security, safety, predictability, dependability, and our need for freedom, exploration, change, risk. They have traditionally, they come from different sources. They pull us in different directions, and we've rarely really wanted them to be in one relationship. Today, we want a passionate marriage-

    2. SBSteven Bartlett51:53

       Hmm.

    3. EPEsther Perel51:53

       ... or a passionate, you know, relationship. And those two things have never had to d- because they, they demand different ingredients. So I was very interested in that. What does it mean that romantic love has promised us that there is one relationship in which we can have all of that? That was one relate- reason. I was interested in writing this book, because I thought this is, you know, we used to have religion to experience belonging and continuity and identity, and then we had family for security and economic support, and children, and social status. But now, we want the partner to be a best friend, and a trusted confidant, and a passionate lover, and on top of it, I want you to help me become the best version of myself. And I'm gonna start calling you a soulmate. Soulmate used to be the realm of the divine, not a person. So this is an incredible thing. If we've never expected more from one relationship and asked one person to give us what usually an entire village used to provide. That interested me. And-

    4. SBSteven Bartlett52:52

       So something must be broken there.

    5. EPEsther Perel52:54

       I mean, it's just an incredible shift. It's a unique thing. It's an, it's a grand experiment in our, in our life. And then the third part was sexual. You know, sexuality went through major transformations. It went from duty to desire. It went from, you know, being i- inexcribably linked to children to, to being now, I mean, if you only have two kids, you have sex for the long haul for pleasure and connection. There's no other reason. (laughs) So what does that look like? And why do people always say that sexual problems are the consequence of relationship problems? Which is sometimes true, but in many instances, sex and intimacy, they are, they are a parallel process. They're not just a metaphor of each other. And so I thought... I've seen many couples improve their relationship, and it did nothing for the sex. But I've seen couples who when the sexuality changes between them, it transforms the relationship. And so that demands a deeper understanding of what is sexuality, not what do you do, you know, and how often do you do it, and how hard, and how often, and how, how many? I mean, the measurable stuff, that is, you know, sex had be- had become this thing that you measure rather than, you know, where do you go (laughs) inside of you with another? What is the experience like? You know, what is the meaning of sex, not what is the frequency of sex? And all these questions had not been discussed much, certainly not in the field of couples therapy and not in, in the general culture at large. And to explain that dilemma seemed to have been something that till today people found really ... there's no, an answer, by the way. There's a, there's a-

    6. SBSteven Bartlett54:40

       There's not an answer?

    7. EPEsther Perel54:40

       No.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett54:41

       What?

    9. EPEsther Perel54:41

       The book tells you that... because relationship issues-

    10. SBSteven Bartlett54:44

        Refund.

    11. EPEsther Perel54:44

        ... are not bl- binaries. They're not black and white. They're not problems that you solve. They're paradoxes that you manage.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett54:53

        Well, now-

    13. EPEsther Perel54:53

        The strength of the book is that it didn't have an answer. The strength of the book is that it told you you have to learn to live with some of these contradictions.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett55:03

        People don't wanna hear that. People want, people wanna know the two steps to fix their sexless relationship-

    15. EPEsther Perel55:10

        That's it.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett55:10

        ... in 60 seconds.

    17. EPEsther Perel55:11

        Yeah. Well, they can, they won't find that with me.... but they keep finding something else with me. See, you want your freedom. You want your travels. You wanna be here. You wanna do your podcast. You wanna do the stuff that is interesting to you, but you also want your girlfriend. You do want both, and you're looking for how, how do I now bring all my passion, all my energy, my creativity, my erotic charge, my imagination, my curiosity, everything to this part of my life, and I let that other thing dry up? And once you will find that not, it's not so much a balance, it's really, you know, um, a distribution of your resources, you will experience a very different level of satisfaction in your life, because you won't, half the time, be guilty. (laughs)

    18. SBSteven Bartlett56:00

        When you look back through different cultures, they-

    19. EPEsther Perel56:02

        Is that true?

    20. SBSteven Bartlett56:03

        Y- Yeah, of course, it's true-

    21. EPEsther Perel56:04

        (laughs)

    22. SBSteven Bartlett56:04

        ... 'cause you said it.

    23. EPEsther Perel56:05

        Uh, no.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett56:05

        So of course, it's true.

    25. EPEsther Perel56:06

        Not 'cause I said it.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett56:06

        No, it's true 'cause everything you say is true. (laughs)

    27. EPEsther Perel56:08

        Oh, come on. No, absolutely not. I sound-

    28. SBSteven Bartlett56:11

        No, it's, it's-

    29. EPEsther Perel56:11

        ... very confident, but I actually never think I'm right.

    30. SBSteven Bartlett56:14

        No, no, but I think you're right. That's what I'm saying.
12. 56:44 – 59:55

    Managing Expectations on Your Relationship

    1. SBSteven Bartlett56:44

       or are we meant to be polygamous and a bit more, I don't know, reckless, and have lots of different partners and, you know, like some of the people used to have throughout history and some people have in different religions?

    2. EPEsther Perel57:02

       I think it's two separate questions, what you're asking.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett57:03

       Yeah, one of them is about monogamy and the other one's about, yeah, well...

    4. EPEsther Perel57:08

       The other one is about how you keep a relationship alive, and, um, that's, that I think we have somewhat addressed, right? Um, it involves doing more things. You, the contradiction is when you stand, you know, if you really want to stand, it's actually about m- constantly moving the weight from one side to another. It's not about neutralizing the two polarities. It's about playing with these polarities, so there are times of the day or times of the year or times in your life when, you know, you wanna bundle, and then there are times when you want to explore and play and be, be creative and curious and do unusual things. So, I don't think that it is inherently impossible to do it in a relationship, but it demands activity. Look, every system, every relation system, every company straddles stability and change, continuity and innovation. If you don't change, you fossilize and you die. So will your relationship, so will your company. If you change all the time and you're running, spinning, spinning, spinning, spinning, you will dysregulate, and you will be chaotic, and you will be exhausted, and you will forget what you're even running towards. So w- ev- nature knows that. We continuously straddle these two polarities. That's what I call the contradiction, you know, but monogamy's a different s- question about that. It's, it has to do with, what do we think are the viable relational arrangements at this moment? For whom is this a model that appeals? And, um, and it has opened up a whole vista about what does consensual non-monogamy look like, or what does polyamory look like? For whom is this, you know, a- an expression of liberation, (laughs) and, and for whom is this actually rather tortuous? And it's, and I think the, what it says to us is that you can't have a one-size-fits-all, and when it comes to love relationships, we have usually not been the most innovative, you know. Family models have changed, but couple models haven't changed that much.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett59:28

       Romantic, romantics and realists.

    6. EPEsther Perel59:31

       Yes.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett59:32

       You discuss this in chapter one of your book.

    8. EPEsther Perel59:35

       (laughs)

    9. SBSteven Bartlett59:35

       How would you define a romantic?

    10. EPEsther Perel59:39

        Romantics are aspirational. Romantics are, live in the realm of the imagination. They live in the realm of, how do you transcend the limits? How do you project yourself outside

13. 59:55 – 1:02:17

    Romanticism in Relationships

    1. EPEsther Perel59:55

       of the narrowness of your own reality, boundaries, consciousness, body, et cetera? When I say aspirational, idealistic, um, longing, yearning, discovery, exploration, unknown, a kind of an active engagement with the unknown, and, and a, and a reverence for the connection. Realists are more pragmatic. Realists unders- you know, are basically, you know, instead of, "This is not possible. There must be more," they say, "This is fine as is. Why should there be more?" And, um, this is a conversation, I just use these two terms because they were handy. It's not because I had entire definitions of them, but I understood that in relationship, you often have one person who says, "W- why do you always want more?" And then one person who says, "But there is so many possibilities." And then the other person says, "Yes, but so many minefields (laughs) or landmines."

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:01

       Do you see a gender difference between those two-

    3. EPEsther Perel1:01:03

       No.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:03

       ... typically, ever?

    5. EPEsther Perel1:01:04

       No. No. I think that what makes the gender difference is the dynamic as well. I mean, um, no, I c- I, I, I refuse to just-... s- make it a- a- a man-woman, because I see the dynamic in all couples. And there, it's less defined around gender and more defined around childhood story or- or- or gender identification in the broad sense of the- I- no. I- I mean, yes, in the- y- do you know the classic old line that you could see in- in a hetero couple is when mister says, "But it's like so..." That is cliché, you know? "Everything's fine, and if she was fine, everything would be fine."

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:50

       Is speaking a man's strength though?

    7. EPEsther Perel1:01:52

       Is what?

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:53

       Speaking.

    9. EPEsther Perel1:01:54

       Yeah.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:54

        Communicating-

    11. EPEsther Perel1:01:55

        Yeah.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:55

        ... about how they feel. Is that a strength that men-

    13. EPEsther Perel1:01:59

        It depends how it's said.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:01

        You know, 'cause people think of, um, intimacy as verbal communication, often. It's one of the things I saw in chapter three of your book that we-

    15. EPEsther Perel1:02:09

        So, here's the thing. I don't buy the thing that men talk less. I do think that,

14. 1:02:17 – 1:06:25

    The Power of Communication

    1. EPEsther Perel1:02:17

       yes, men are often, uh, emptied out from the vocabulary of emotions by age seven. (laughs) It's like siphoned out of them. The socialization of boys does not really prioritize a- an- a- a- an active engagement with one's emotional life and one's interiority. Okay? It's much better to be stoic, to be fearless, to be competitive, to be, you know... Those kind of values are more... But when I sit alone with men, it's not because they don't have a vocabulary that they don't have the feelings. And I've been a therapist of many men f- for decades, for... It was actually something I actively sought. And when you take your time, and you listen, and you support the ar- the expression, things will come out, and they, when they come out... Here's the thing. When a woman talks to you, many times you know that she's already said that to somebody else, that- which doesn't diminish it, but when a man talks to you, you know that he's hearing himself for the first time. Himself. But that's not because that's what men are. That's because w- that's what we make men to be. That's how we socialize men. Um, I think that this notion that women want more connection... Look, you were asking me about sex before. I think every gender has been given license to what needs they're allowed to have, publicly and officially, and in what language they're entitled to talk about them. So men will not necessarily talk about the need for tenderness, connection, care, uh, intimacy, um, holding, um, be- because that is not the vocabulary that has been assigned to them. So they will talk about it in the language of sex. Women have basically not been given the license to say what they want sexually. That is really not what they have been educated to develop. So, they have learned that they are allowed to speak about relational needs, and wrapped in their relational needs are all kinds of other longings for sexual intimacy, for seduction, for pleasure, for connection. Every gender is allowed to ask for the same things, but in a different vocabulary. Men are allowed to talk about sex. Women are allowed to talk about intimacy. But that's not the s- fact. That is not the same as saying men and women want other things. Actually, they are more similar than we think they are, and all research supports that.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:06

       But it's just the socialization is causing a different, a different, uh, effect.

    3. EPEsther Perel1:05:16

       Like, we like to think that, you know, man sexuality, it's autonomous, it's unprompted, it's spontaneous. They don't need anything. They're always ready. They're always looking for an outlet, you know? As... And that, you know, men are creatures of nature, and women are creatures of meaning. Whereas for her, it's the context. It's the quality of the relationship. It's the- that elicits the desire, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, seriously? I- on what basis are we saying things like this? I mean, you want to know men have an- an- a range of very deep emotions that completely affect how they experience sex.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:58

       You know the rise in, um, feminism and equality of the genders in every regard?

    5. EPEsther Perel1:06:07

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:07

       D- do you think that has had implications for relationships, and specifically sex, in a way that you've seen over the last decade? 'Cause you've been working with thousands of couples over the last couple of decades, so... Is there any

15. 1:06:25 – 1:12:09

    Feminism, Gender Roles, and Sexual Dynamics

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:25

       way that feminism or gender equality has influenced sexual dynamics?

    2. NANarrator1:06:33

       (sighs)

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:33

       I tell you why I asked- asked it-

    4. EPEsther Perel1:06:34

       Yes.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:34

       ...'cause it's one of the ch- chapters in your book from, you know, was it 17 years ago or something, talks about how some of America's best features, the belief of democracy, equality, consensus building, um, compromise, fairness and mutual tolerance can, when carried too-

    6. EPEsther Perel1:06:49

       Punctiliously.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:06:51

       I'm so glad you knew what word you'd written, 'cause I had no idea I had to say that word, into the bedroom, results in very boring sex.

    8. EPEsther Perel1:06:57

       Yes. Sex is not always politically correct. Sometimes we demonstrate during the day against the very same things that we delight at night. If it's playful, if it's consensual, if it's voluntary-

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:17

       ... that feels like a contradiction.

    10. EPEsther Perel1:07:18

        They understand. It's, uh, but so do children. Children play prisoners, and children play firemen and victims and doctors and patients. What they understand that when they play, they enter a universe of as if. Nobody wants to be pinned down-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:37

        And tied up.

    12. EPEsther Perel1:07:39

        ... you know, for real-

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:41

        (laughs) Almost to be taken down.

    14. EPEsther Perel1:07:42

        ... as in, as in against their will-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:44

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    16. EPEsther Perel1:07:44

        ... as in a situa- you know-

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:46

        Non-consensually.

    18. EPEsther Perel1:07:46

        No, e- non-consensually, and with the mean- and without the meaning that says, "This is for pleasure. This is for connection. This is for surrender. This is for this very powerful ritual." You know, when kids are tying each other up because they are the prisoners, they are n- uh, tolerating it because they know that they are in the realm of play, as if, make-believe, and it gives it the fun and a dif- wholely different meaning. Nobody wants to be trapped-

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:18

        Yeah.

    20. EPEsther Perel1:08:18

        ... wh- when it becomes real. You know, if you play hide-and-seek, the most amazing thing w- is when you're hiding is to know that somebody's looking for you, but the minute you begin to wonder, "Are they still looking for you?" the thrill turns into terror. This is what happens in sex, too. You know, you have to, it's extremely important to differentiate when it is sexual, when it's a form of play, when it's a particular practice you enjoy, and everything around it is con- is coming together to clarify that.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:55

        But are you seeing couples struggling, though, with these sort of m- newly defined gender roles as it relates to their sex lives? And as we said, like feminism and the equality of the sexes and all of the- has it, has it changed anything?

    22. EPEsther Perel1:09:09

        I mean, I think that one thing is to talk about sexual rights.

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:13

        Mm-hmm.

    24. EPEsther Perel1:09:13

        And one thing is to talk about sexual pleasure and experience. I think, you know, I was re- I was teaching at this course yesterday, it, I think it's about 97% of research on desire is about women. What does-

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:29

        Oh.

    26. EPEsther Perel1:09:29

        ... that say to you? That says that we think women have challenges around desire. Men don't have to be researched, because the assumption is they're always interested, just if you give them an opportunity, which is so not true.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:47

        Yeah.

    28. EPEsther Perel1:09:48

        But the science is completely bought into the bias.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:53

        What's the difference, though? Why does it matter whether, if, if all the researchers... Are you getting different results from men and women?

    30. EPEsther Perel1:09:58

        No, because, because, yes. The, the, the, the experiences are different, but what it says is that, uh, well, the science has decided that women need to be helped around desire.
16. 1:12:09 – 1:17:40

    Are Couples Having Less Sex?

    1. EPEsther Perel1:12:09

       there may be sex, but that may be miserable sex.

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:14

       Do you think there's a lot of miserable sex?

    3. EPEsther Perel1:12:15

       Of course. You know, and when women don't have desire, is it really that they have less desire, or is it that they don't have desire for the sex they can have?

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:23

       Mm-hmm.

    5. EPEsther Perel1:12:25

       In order to want sex, it needs to be sex that is worth wanting.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:12:29

       Well, my, I've said this before, but it's worth saying now again, my partner turned around to me one day and said, "I don't like having sex with you," and I was shocked. I was like, this was super early into our relationship, and as a very young man, I didn't understand what that meant, very emasculated by it. I thought there's some- must, she must be broken in some way. There must be some kind of medical defect. Maybe she needs some pills or a doctor or something. We ended up breaking up. We spent a year apart. She ended up doing some work on herself. I did a little bit of work on myself. We got back together, uh, and went on a bit of a journey together to find out what the actual answer was, and it turns out it wasn't that she didn't like having sex or having sex with me. She very much enjoys sex, but there was a series of blockages, and I almost describe it like I thought sex was one language, Spanish-... and it turns out she thought it... she was speaking French, and I just assumed 'cause she wasn't speaking Spanish, that we couldn't have sex, basically.

    7. EPEsther Perel1:13:32

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:13:33

       And at some point, I started to view her as, maybe there's 10 different languages or five different languages of sex, and maybe my job is to learn the language that she is speaking. And I have to say, and I say this, I give this conclusion because there's a lot of people that are in that situation right now, I know that because I'd say, at one point about 20%, 20% to 40% of my friendship group were. We have a great sex life now, um... and I say that because I think couples often think they just can't turn it around. They think that when one partner turns and says, "I'm not enjoying this," they think it's, the other person's broken. We managed to turn it around. Um-

    9. EPEsther Perel1:14:10

       It's wonderful. It's a, it's a, it- it's wonderful and w- what is not said often enough is that, when people are able to change this, it changes the whole relationship.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:23

        Mm-hmm.

    11. EPEsther Perel1:14:24

        That's what I said before when I said, "You can change the kitchen, but it won't change the bedroom. But when you change the bedroom, it changes the people who walk into the kitchen."

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:34

        Yeah.

    13. EPEsther Perel1:14:35

        And it's very, very important and, and, but it's, you need to do things. You- y- you can't talk about not having sex... oh, now I'm gonna put it differently, you, you, it's difficult to want to have more sex by talking about not wanting to have sex.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:51

        Yeah.

    15. EPEsther Perel1:14:51

        You have to try new things.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:14:53

        Yeah.

    17. EPEsther Perel1:14:53

        And that means you take chances, you risk, you explore together, and when it doesn't work, you try something else, and that is what people often find really challenging. They'd rather take it as a criticism and then they are defensive and then they counterattack and then you say to her, "There's something wrong with you," etc., etc. You know-

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:15:15

        Do you know what really struggle- I struggled with was that first day when I tried to initiate sex and then I basically got rejected. That created this almost anxiety every... going forward, and then there was maybe about a year, not even a year, maybe less than that, maybe six months where if I, if I'd, like, tried to initiate sex, I'd be, like, rejected and that, kind of, just totally turned me off. And it, it was... even when we fixed the situation, I almost had to do a lot of work on myself just to... 'cause then she starts initiating all the time when we, when we get out th- of the other end of the situation, when we resolve it, and then that's basically a problem because I've learnt this habit that she has to initiate sex now because there was these periods for six months where I was just rejected all the time. And, uh... yeah, that was difficult 'cause I tell you, I tell you what, when you've got to get an erection, the last thing you wanna be doing is thinking and thinking and thinking, "Am I gonna be rejected? Is da-da-da-da-da...? Does she wanna have it too?" You know? It's the last thing you wanna be thinking.

    19. EPEsther Perel1:16:14

        So, this fear of rejection is probably one of the most important emotional or sexual vulnerabilities for many men. Um... it's part of what is so alluring in porn, by the way. You're never rejected in porn. She never says, "Not now." She always says, "Me too, more, more, more." And that takes care of one of the very important sexual vulnerabilities that many men grapple with. By the way, the next one would be, um, you're also never incompetent. You never have performance anxiety. It doesn't matter. Whatever you do, you do a l- it's for you, so y- that takes care of the second vulnerability. And the third one is that you never have to wonder, "Is she enjoying it?" Because she only screams and makes sure that she, she lets whoever the actor is know how phenomenal he is. So-

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:13

        And also, you've searched out the fantasy that you want, so you're getting-

    21. EPEsther Perel1:17:15

        Absolutely.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:16

        There's no rejection in the fantasy that you-

    23. EPEsther Perel1:17:18

        So, it's very interesting thing, when you look at what does porn do for many men, is it takes care of three major emotional dilemmas around sex. The... it's l- it's not that it just takes care of the sex. It takes care of the vulnerabilities, the emotional vulnerabilities around sex. That's a real different way of understanding when you say to people, "What are you

17. 1:17:40 – 1:19:42

    The Impact of Pornography on Relationships

    1. EPEsther Perel1:17:40

       looking at?"

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:42

       Are you not concerned that with artifeshal- artificial intelligence on the way in virtual reality, that we're literally... if- if porn is taking care of those vulnerabilities that are standing in the way of many men-

    3. EPEsther Perel1:17:53

       So will bots.

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:55

       Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

    5. EPEsther Perel1:17:55

       So will machines, ever more so.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:57

       A machine, I put a headset on-

    7. EPEsther Perel1:17:59

       Yeah.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:17:59

       ... I buy the machine on the internet, you know?

    9. EPEsther Perel1:18:01

       Yes.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:02

        And then it can talk to me.

    11. EPEsther Perel1:18:03

        And I have an augmented reality and they never say no and they know exactly what I like and they accompany me everywhere and I don't have to feel like I want too much or too little or I'm doing it wrong or anything. Yeah, absolutely. It's a fantastic, idealistic world in which one can enter. Scary. (laughs) And understandable.

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:26

        Especially as people are getting lonelier. They- they'll pers- they'll see that as a substitute for the real thing. Maybe a better substitute for the real thing f- in some people's minds.

    13. EPEsther Perel1:18:37

        Yes. Those who will seek it out will want you to t- will want to believe that it is, um, a good substitute. Maybe.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:18:46

        You look concerned.

    15. EPEsther Perel1:18:47

        I, I, I... it's a world that I don't know yet, that I'm watching. Uh, when I say I don't know yet, I know, I know plenty, but I, I, I... there are things that are changing where I say, "I'm excited. This is phenomenal." And then there are things that are changing that I'm saying, "Where is this taking us?" And I'm a lot more cautious, and this is one of them.

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:15

        When couples do come to you with sexlessness in their relationship, again, we have to define what sexlessness is, but they're, they've stopped having sex. It's been six months since they've had sex.

    17. EPEsther Perel1:19:23

        How six months? Why not 16 years?

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:26

        You've had that?

    19. EPEsther Perel1:19:28

        Six months it done- ... Yes, I mean, when we talk about a block, some- you know, a- a- a- a breach, an impasse, a shutdown, we're not talking months.

18. 1:19:42 – 1:28:35

    Why Relationships Can Go Sexless For Years and How To Fix It

    1. EPEsther Perel1:19:43

       And by the way, this is not people ... This is un- your f- best friends and you don't know. That's-

    2. SBSteven Bartlett1:19:49

       I asked them and I was shocked.

    3. EPEsther Perel1:19:50

       ... you know? That's why it, "Where should we begin?" became so ... People began to see that this is not just some others, or just them, that it actually is very common. Um, and so sexlessness is not about frequency, though at some point for some people it means nothing, nothing for years. And then you ask, "Do you still kiss? Do you hold? Do you touch? Do you rub skin? Do you ... Is there any physicality still? Is there affection that may not be sexual touch, but that is affectionate touch?" So you- you- you- you really look at the broad, uh, you know, definition. And then you ask, "What- what," you know, "what is it that you would want? Do you- do you ... Are you prepared to take the chance?"

    4. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:37

       I don't want that. I don't- I wanna know how- how I get back from that place-

    5. EPEsther Perel1:20:42

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SBSteven Bartlett1:20:42

       ... but also, I wanna know how I avoid getting to that place. It's two separate answers, I guess. There's 16 years and no sex, how do we get back?

    7. EPEsther Perel1:20:53

       So first and foremost, maybe this is a place to start. When I think about the conversations I have about sex with the people I work with, individuals or couples, and- a- and I think probably the best way for you is- is to- to listen to it in- in the podcast episodes, 'cause you- you- you- you can hear how- how one begins to have this conversation, is that sex is not about a five-minute foreplay that is just in preparation for the real thing. And the real thing, in a straight couple, is penetration and orgasm, and then you know it worked. That model, that in the (laughs) performance model of, you know, with an outcome is so not what I'm talking about. This is what couples have had for centuries. People have had sex. I mean, you can do it and feel nothing. That's not the goal. So I don't care how often, I'm care about the quality of the experience, that the connection you have with yourself and with another. And so it has t- ... We talk about touch, we talk about giving touch and taking touch. We talk about fantasy, imagination. We talk about, how do you ask for the things that you like? But that doesn't mean just, "Touch me here, touch me there." It's how do you communicate sexually? What is that f- translate- translation from Spanish to French? You know, how do you say to somebody, "I enjoy this. I would enjoy that more"? How do you create a vocabulary that isn't negative and critical and castrating? How do you pay attention to how the other person is responding and not just say, "Why don't you like this? Everybody else likes this," that kinda stuff. So it's- it's very, very rich, you know? And the definition of sex is really way beyond this. And so you start to ask people about their im- their imaginative life around what excites them, around peak experiences that they have had, around the kind of touch that they enjoy, around, "What- what do you look for in sex? Is it a communion? Is it a spiritual union? Is it an- a free experience of being dominated, of being, of giving yourself over to someone, of being naughty, of not having to be responsible and take care of other people, which you do the whole day? What do you look for in sex? Where do you go? What do you seek to express there?" These are conversations th- a lot of people, most people have never had.

    8. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:22

       Sometimes one person in a relationship doesn't wanna have that conversation, right? And the other person does.

    9. EPEsther Perel1:23:26

       Then yeah, I meet with them alone.

    10. SBSteven Bartlett1:23:28

        Okay.

    11. EPEsther Perel1:23:29

        I'm ... And- and because some things need to be sometimes articulated separately first. You know, what is it? Sometimes it has to do with smell and body and- and sometimes it has to do with trauma, sometimes it has to do with, uh, lingering resentments. Uh, sometimes it has to do with the fundamental un- inequality in the relationship, in which one person expects and assumes, and it- it ... What blocks the sex can ... I- it's a sleuth work. It's, you know, it's- it's not just, "It stopped."

    12. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:05

        Do sometimes couples say to you in private that, "I'm just not attracted to them anymore"?

    13. EPEsther Perel1:24:08

        Of course. And sometimes they say it flat out to each other too.

    14. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:11

        Really?

    15. EPEsther Perel1:24:11

        People say hurtful things, yes. And-

    16. SBSteven Bartlett1:24:14

        (laughs)

    17. EPEsther Perel1:24:14

        ... sometimes it's, "I- I can't believe somebody would be attracted to me. I don't find myself attractive. I have been ill," or, "I have struggled with weight," or, "I have had addiction issues," or, "I..." Lots- the ... Sex intersects with a lot of things. It intersects with your health. The vast majority of couples, 55 up, that stop being sexual, it's actually because of the man in hetero couples, because the men are often on medication for diabetes, for blood pressure, for prostate, for depression and others, and all these medications have sexual side effects. If you are a man who basically has focused your entire sexuality around your penis and your erections and your ability to get hard and last and have autonomous spontaneous erections, and suddenly it doesn't happen, and you suddenly think, "Now I have to ask for help? Uh, help?" You know, "What kind of a man ... This is ... I'm no longer ..." You know, then you give up. And the notion that actually you have an entire body to make love with, and that your penis doesn't make the decisions, it's the person who makes decisions for the penis. (laughs) That's a very different story. And that you actually can experience pleasure in all kinds of other ways-... or that you have had all illnesses with which you've grappled with. So, sex- human sexuality is a very broad topic that evolves in the course of your life, that changes with your successes, with your illnesses, with your children's f- lives, et cetera, et cetera. And that is one of the best things I can offer to people, is that suddenly, the conversation... When you say the person doesn't wanna talk about it, it's because what they've talked about is that narrow. "Why don't you want to have sex? You never want to have sex. All you can think about is sex." That kind of thing. And once you've actually invited them into a whole other conversation about, "What is pleasure for you? What is connection? What is the difference between desire and arousal? What does it mean to start because you're in the mood versus to start 'cause you're willing?"

    18. SBSteven Bartlett1:26:32

        I've had partners before where I thought, "Do you know what? If I laid out the full menu of what I find pleasurable, they would think I was a weirdo." Listen, I'm not into anything extreme. Like I'm not into, you know... I have a very... Look at me apologizing. Um, I'd think, "Oh, they, they wouldn't be into that, so I just won't tell 'em, or it might make them run off, so I won't tell them." And I think, uh, uh, dawned on me a couple of, um... maybe about a year ago, my girlfriend turned around to me and actually asked me the question for the first time about, like, what my fantasies were, and I was like, "Do I give her the vanilla menu, or do I tell her about the..."

    19. EPEsther Perel1:27:06

        That's where the card game comes in.

    20. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:08

        (laughs) This card game?

    21. EPEsther Perel1:27:10

        Mine, yes.

    22. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:11

        This one I have on the floor?

    23. EPEsther Perel1:27:12

        Because it has a, I have a whole bunch of sexuality-related questions. And because you're playing, you know... It's the pink triangles are the sex ones.

    24. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:24

        Mm.

    25. EPEsther Perel1:27:24

        (laughs) But in play mode, you can ask this question about fantasy in a way that is much less directed.

    26. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:33

        Yeah, or loaded.

    27. EPEsther Perel1:27:34

        Loaded, you know, confrontational.

    28. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:36

        Yeah.

    29. EPEsther Perel1:27:37

        It, you, you, then, and, you know, there's 60 cards on that subject alone, and that creates a very different kind of conversation. And I, I really think that to put it in the context of play and playfulness invites a very different kind of revelation and honesty. Are you looking?

    30. SBSteven Bartlett1:27:59

        Yeah, I mean, this one says-
19. 1:28:35 – 1:30:13

    Ads

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:28:35

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    2. EPEsther Perel1:29:46

       The most sensual sexual experience I've had without having sex.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:52

       Oh, that's a good one.

    4. EPEsther Perel1:29:53

       That's a beautiful one.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:29:55

       Hmm. It'd probably be being in the shower with my partner, which is a very vulnerable experience, but it's, there's something quite sensual about that experience.

    6. EPEsther Perel1:30:09

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:11

       That's the first thing that came to mind.

20. 1:30:13 – 1:35:56

    The Sex Game

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:13

    2. EPEsther Perel1:30:13

       Mm-hmm. I'll just read a few, and then you can decide. "A lie-"

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:15

       'Cause you, you're flaccid at that point, so you're not, you know, you're not looking your best. You're a little bit, you know. (laughs)

    4. EPEsther Perel1:30:19

       And because one of the early essential experiences that we have is when our parents or our caregivers wash us.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:27

       Oh, okay. Interesting.

    6. EPEsther Perel1:30:30

       When they wash our head, when they wash our back, when they rinse off the soap.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:35

       Mm-hmm.

    8. EPEsther Perel1:30:35

       I mean, there are a lot of imprints, in the best of circumstances, of being washed as one of the most initial pleasurable sensual, without it being sexual at all.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:30:48

       Mm-hmm.

    10. EPEsther Perel1:30:48

        Little kids, you sit in the tub and somebody puts the water over you and rinses you.

Episode duration: 2:02:41