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The Diary of a CEOThe Diary of a CEO

Example: The Dark Side Of Money & Fame | E152

Example is a music artist, producer, writer and rapper who has been leading the way in the music industry for the last 16 years. A trailblazer and an innovator, Example started out as a rapper before moving over into dance, lighting up Glastonbury, Isle of Wight and Global Gathering among many, many other festivals. Topics: 0:00 Early years 07:50 Aspergers 10:39 Your demons at a young age 12:45 Wanting to quit music 15:09 Money and fame turning you into a monster 23:50 Hating yourself 26:07 Self medicating 33:42 What made you get out of that reckless phase? 35:50 Advice for someone in a reckless phase 37:37 Spirituality and breath work 44:27 The miscarriage 48:09 Your future 52:25 People thinking you’re no longer making music 56:56 Competing with a former version of yourself 01:02:09 The new album 01:04:33 What matters? 01:06:18 The last guest question Example: https://www.instagram.com/example/ https://twitter.com/example https://music.apple.com/us/artist/example/ Listen on: Apple podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast... Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7iQXmUT... FOLLOW ► Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steven/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveBartlettSC Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-ba... Sponsors: Huel - https://my.huel.com/Steven Craftd - https://bit.ly/3JKOPFx Location courtesy of The Nightfall Group: www.nightfallgroup.com

Example (Elliot Gleave)guestSteven Bartletthost
Jun 16, 20221h 13mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 7:50

    Early years

    1. EG

      No one signs a record deal and has a manager come up to them and go, "There's a good chance you're gonna be really famous. Here's a pamphlet on how to not be a (beep) ."

    2. SB

      Put your hands together for Example! (upbeat music plays) Money and fame can show you who you are. And one of the things you said is the person I was when I was 27 was a fucking monster.

    3. EG

      When I became famous, I just went a bit off the rails with drugs and alcohol. I think there was just this, this one weekend at Glastonbury where I just kind of disappeared for 48 hours. I was in an absolute state.

    4. SB

      What was the cost?

    5. EG

      Well, it's just not nice to see your parents cry, you know?

    6. SB

      Wow.

    7. EG

      I look back as it being one of the worst weeks ever. And then I met Erin. Just watching someone grow a baby and give birth is like one of the most sobering experiences ever.

    8. SB

      You tragically had a miscarriage on your second.

    9. EG

      I remember I was invited onto Lorraine, and I was meant to go on and talk about a single and a tour. Just before I went on, they went, "We just found out you lost a second baby. Do you wanna make the whole interview about that?" I got so many messages from guys afterwards just going, "That's amazing you went on and spoke about that." I've realized there's been the first times I've spoken about things that I should have probably spoken about with friends or family a long time ago.

    10. SB

      If you were advising a younger Elliot-

    11. EG

      (laughs)

    12. SB

      ... what would you say in terms of the components that make for a good life?

    13. EG

      I've often thought about this.

    14. SB

      So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (electronic music plays) One of the things I always try and do, again, because I, I tend to believe that we are all a product of our like, of typically our significant childhood events, whatever they might be. When I look at your story, I was hazarding a guess as well. I was saying, "Well, this was obviously quite a key moment. This is the key moment." But in your own words, what were those catalyst key moments from your childhood that ultimately shaped you to become who you are today?

    15. EG

      Oh, wow. Um, I think in terms of work ethic, um, it's definitely from my mum and dad. I was very aware as a kid, um, you know, even, uh, like, even before as a teenager how much time and effort my mum and dad put into, well, like, they're both working class and they both came from very humble beginnings. But I think the main thing I was aware of is that my dad was always away working as a kid. I was also aware that a lot of my friends' parents weren't together. You know, they were, a lot of them were raised by just their single mums. Um, but then I also saw how much effort my mum put in. She was... She didn't have a day job, but I could see how hard my mum worked, especially with my dad being away. So I think the work ethic thing has helped me a great deal in terms of where I've got to. Um, par- not so much anymore, but partly trying to impress them or, you know, feeling like I, uh, lived up to their standards, maybe in my early 20s, mid-20s. Apart from, you know, like my parents' influence as a kid, I think mainly I'd say the, the, you know, the culture at school in terms of music culture. London, I grew up in Fulham. I went to school in Wandsworth, and even though it was a really nice school in terms of it was a modern school, it was a technology college. It was a, I'd say the majority of kids I went to school with all lived on council estates, and I didn't, but I spent a lot of time down there. So I think that was really good in helping me not only understand, um, the different cultures and therefore, as a result, where the music cultures came from. Just like how other people live and how other pe- You know, what people have to go, go through. You know, like some of my best friends, their mums would have five jobs.

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. EG

      And they'd be living in two-bedroom, uh, council flats with like seven siblings. So I think that, even though I didn't live that life, it was quite opening to see that, um, as-

    18. SB

      Did, did you enjoy school?

    19. EG

      Love school. Loved, I, I, I love drama, loves maths. Was really good at maths but n- not very good at English, which is weird 'cause I used the English language and manipulate English language for (laughs) -

    20. SB

      (laughs)

    21. EG

      ... for financial gain really. But, um, yeah, wasn't very good at English and wasn't very good at science because I weren't interested in them. I wasn't really interested in religious studies because I always found there was like occasional you'd see the different, you know, religions, whether it's Sikh, Hindu, Muslim, Christian. There'd be like little squabbles in the playground, so I kind of didn't like that religion could segregate people.

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. EG

      So, but everything else I was interested in, geography, maths, drama, art, music, I excelled at and loved because, you know, I loved going to school. My mum was always like, "You are an absolute nerd when, when it comes to school." You were like, you couldn't wait to get there and you couldn't wait to tell me about everything you'd learned that day. And you couldn't wait to get there the next day. And when it was coming to the end of school holidays, you couldn't wait to get back to school. So I, I think I, I enjoyed structure and I enjoyed either the attention from being a class clown in, in playground, you know, playtime-

    24. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. EG

      ... 'cause I wasn't ever very good at sport. I was good at running in a straight line or swimming in a straight line, but I wasn't good at team sports.

    26. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. EG

      So I think, um, I, I really felt like, like school was good for not only my brain, which was always a bit hyperactive, but also I got this outlet of doing, making people laugh by doing impressions.

    28. SB

      Why did you care about that, making people laugh?

    29. EG

      Because I d- I just think, I felt like, I don't know, I've, I've always enjoyed being an attention seeker. Um, my mum said that when I was, uh, you know, very young, like five, five, six years old, she felt like I was misbehaving a lot at school and she made a decision to put me on stage in the local grama- drama group. I definitely think my mum spotted something in me which was like, "This kid needs to perform and he needs attention and that's his outlet and that sort of levels him out a bit."

    30. SB

      I'm surprised to hear that you were so keen to get back to school because I also read that you were at some point bullied by the other kids.

  2. 7:50 – 10:39

    Aspergers

    1. SB

      And you got a d- you got a diagnosis at a fairly young age, for, for having Asperger's?

    2. EG

      Yeah. Well, yeah, but I've been... I... My mum was quite good in that I think she, uh... I think, uh, whether it was... I don't- I can't remember 'cause I was so young, but it would've either been from her friends. You know, other mums down the park going, "Elliot's a bit, you know, on the spectrum," and, you know, "What's, what's up with him?" Because I was such a, I suppose, like, hyperactive kid.

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. EG

      And I, I'd sort of seem to flip between different personalities all the time, but I also had these weird, you know, weird sort of, like, uh, nervous twitches.

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. EG

      Um, (laughs) and I would, uh... If I had a photographic memory for, like, even at a young age, I would be like, just look at a list of, I don't know, like American states and just memorize them very, like, within two or three reads. Or I'd get the Trivial Pursuit box out and memorize every single question in a box of Trivial Pursuit, just so when we came to play with, like, neighbors, or friends, or family at a barbecue, I knew the answer to everything.

    7. SB

      (laughs)

    8. EG

      I think my dad then clocked that I'd memorized them all-

    9. SB

      (laughs)

    10. EG

      ... but instead of telling everyone that I'd memorized them all, he was like, "Yeah, my son's really, really sharp. He's really well read," you know? (laughs)

    11. SB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    12. EG

      Um, things like that, you know.

    13. SB

      How does that sit with you now, that, that, that diagnosis, and do, do you still-

    14. EG

      Well, I just think every- there's no way of kno- knowing who, what anyone is. I think y- everyone can be a little bit of-

    15. SB

      Everything.

    16. EG

      ... everything. It's not-

    17. SB

      Yeah.

    18. EG

      It's not clear-cut to just go, "This person is-"

    19. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    20. EG

      "... this diagnosis," based on, you know, research-

    21. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    22. EG

      ... by doctors, and scientists, and other patients. It's very hard, 'cause I think every human being has a little bit of-

    23. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    24. EG

      ... of something. And you c- you can't just s- say someone is 100% definitely got this-

    25. SB

      Yeah.

    26. EG

      ... you know, that thing. So I, I prefer... And I can see some things in my eldest already, where he shows certain similarities to me as a kid, but then Erin says, "No, I used to do that as a kid as well," and she's a bit mad like me as well. But I think weird is good. (laughs) I definitely think weird is good and I think it's special, and I think my mum spotted that. So I'm kind of glad that I was never put into any special programs, or put into a special school, or extracurricular activities, or even on light medication. I'm qui- you know, I'm quite thankful for that, 'cause I've got friends my age who've been on meds since they were kids and are still on some form now, you know. And they think they're bipolar, or Asperger, or ADHD, and, and I'm like... There's one actually, a g- really close friend of mine who I actually s- encouraged him to maybe have, like, six months off, and he, uh, he's better for it now, and he doesn't take the meds anymore. He's like, you know, he's better at dealing with his, uh, let's say his demons and his, you know, his thoughts maybe that used to haunt him and scare him.

  3. 10:39 – 12:45

    Your demons at a young age

    1. EG

      He's, he's stopped taking the meds and he's, he doesn't take them and he's bet- he's better for it.

    2. SB

      Have you, have you ever had any of those demons, especially at a young age, that you used to contend with?

    3. EG

      I think the main thing, uh, and I still contend with it now, is sometimes I just have so many thoughts, uh, in my... And I, I'm not, like, a worrier. I've never been a worrier, because I've always known how to compartmentalize stuff and I'm, I'm really good with admin, I'm really good at multitasking. But I've, I've, it's kind of been a gift and a curse. Like, it's e- either been having a whole, say, film script or scenario in my head going round and round that I can't seem to switch off, and that might be whilst I'm in a meeting. I'm not doing it now.

    4. SB

      (laughs)

    5. EG

      It might, it might, it might be, you know, like when I say I'm multitasking, I'm like, I can sometimes be in the studio writing a song, but have a shopping list in my head that I just can't seem to get rid of, (laughs) um, which is why yoga can be really good for me at the end, and, like, you know, breath work, like Wim Hof style.

    6. SB

      Yeah.

    7. EG

      That really levels me out. Um, but (laughs) like for instance, like, I... When I'm freestyling, you know, like, and I don't mean, like, pre-written raps that people go out and perform in a rap battle-

    8. SB

      And pretend. Yeah.

    9. EG

      ... inside. I mean, like, just, like, freestyling, like-

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. EG

      ... rhyming. I c- sometimes I'll be at the gym and I'll be there for 45 minutes, and the whole time I'm there I'm freestyling in my head, and it could be about-... what that person is wearing, what exercise that person's doing, what music's playing. And it's kind of gift and a curse, because it's great for, (laughs) you know, when you're producing songs, just words being able to just f- fall out, flow out, but also just, like, not being able to switch off sometimes. So I'll be in a room having a conversation with someone and they're like, "You're not listening, are you?" (laughs) And I'm like, "I'm really sorry, but I've got-" (laughs)

    12. SB

      A shopping list. (laughs)

    13. EG

      A shopping list. (laughs)

    14. SB

      (laughs)

    15. EG

      You know, "Okay, what are you w- what are you getting later?"

    16. SB

      Yeah. (laughs)

    17. EG

      And I'm just there like, "Swiss cheese, light Swiss cheese."

    18. SB

      (laughs)

    19. EG

      (laughs) I've just got a very overactive brain.

  4. 12:45 – 15:09

    Wanting to quit music

    1. SB

      Y- you talked about failure a second ago. You said, you know, going into the music industry, there's a lot... You met with a lot of failure and ups and downs. After your first album, um, your first studio album, I was reading about your kind of, your feelings and sentiments towards it. It sounded like you were gonna quit.

    2. EG

      Yeah, I think you have to be prepared for disappointment in this industry, especially because I'm about to release my eighth album and I don't really have any expectations for it, other than whoever hears it, I hope really enjoys it, 'cause I don't really know how many streams it's gonna do or... It's just, you have to be quite robust in the sense that you may put so much time and effort into a song and Radio 1 or Capitol turn around and don't playlist it. Or you make a song and think, "This is gonna perform really well on Spotify because it- it should get on the workout playlist and, or get on the UK house playlist and maybe this could do well in Germany and like..." Not that I make music like that, but once a song is finished, you can't help but have expectations for it. And then to think that you might have spent s- you know, I might have written it in four or five hours, but then spent six months perfecting the mix downs and adding instrumentation and so on, or adding another vocalist or a feature to it. And then to think that that might come out and someone's, someone somewhere is like, "Nah, not actually into this." When I was signed to Ministry of Sound, there was so much pressure, like, you know, constant meetings every week. I wouldn't go to them 'cause after a while they get too intense, but it was like, "Well, Radio 1 are, are discussing this in playlists this week. We're hopefully gonna go on the C list next week, and then two weeks later, we'll hopefully be moved up to the B list, and then the aim is we can release, we're gonna be on the A list and we should be getting 11 to 15 spins a week, and, you know, hopefully we'll go in straight in, in the iTunes with pre-orders into the top 10 and we'll climb to number one and MTV are fully behind this and you're gonna do a live launch next week and Capitol have just come on board with it." And it's all s- you know, it's, it's great when you're flying, you know, and obviously when something number one singles and top tens, it's great, but you realize the pressure that artists are put under and managers and then the pressure that the record labels are putting on themselves, you know, to compete with, you know... 'Cause they've got to bring in X amount of-

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. EG

      ... revenue, as, you know, if you're in marketing or A& R, you're, uh, they're under pressure from your bosses and then the artists are under pressure from the label and then the managers are under pressure from what the artist expects and it's actually a losing formula.

  5. 15:09 – 23:50

    Money and fame turning you into a monster

    1. EG

    2. SB

      Money and fame, they often say, can show you who you are, or it can bring out the, th- the best and worst in you. And one of the things you said is, "The person I was when I was 27 was a fucking monster compared to the person I was when I was 21."

    3. EG

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      What did you mean by fucking monster?

    5. EG

      (laughs) I was just, um... Obviously, so I- I hadn't tried, uh, class A drugs until I was 23, which is mad 'cause most of my friends and peer group in music and I grew up with were probably d- doing it at 14. Um, and then I just think when I became famous, uh, and, and came into money, I just went a bit off the rails with drugs and alcohol. But I was also in a relationship where I was lying to my girlfriend and cheating on her. And I was just... Everywhere I was going, girls were throwing themselves at me and people wanted to party with me and people were doing everything they could to try and keep me awake all night with them, you know, whether it was girls or bad influences, other celebrities, you know. And then you get carried away 'cause you're like, "Oh my God, I'm hanging out with such and such actor and such and such footballer and this model and this person and we're... We've got access to this bar and this club and we've walked straight into this restaurant and got a table." So you just go off the rails a bit, and I feel like everybody kind of needs to when you get to that stage. Every artist, actor that I've spoken to, whether they've chipped away at it for years like I did or just had this sudden overnight fame, I feel like you kind of need to get it out of your system, 'cause it's kind of like... Not- I'm not saying everyone has to, but nearly everybody I know, it's just like, "Oh my God, how amazing does this feel? Like, I'm getting free clothes and free trainers and I've just been given this free car, I'm getting upgraded on this flight and I've got this table at this restaurant that I couldn't get before. I've been invited to this premiere. I was just on that television show with that Hollywood actor and then I'm in this person's house, you know, this person is giving me free drugs and this girl wants to sleep with me and this girl, these girls want a threesome and then all this shit." So, like, why would you not take it? 'Cause you get to do something that, you know, it's like a one in a million thing. No one else gets to do this. And you don't, you don't go, "I need to do this because no one else gets to do it." You're just like, "This is fun, this is fun. This is mad. Like, my life's mad right now." And I just defy (laughs) anyone to not, to not do the same. I mean, I think, you know, sometimes, like top level athletes, because they have to... Their focus is being an athlete, so it's all about their body and their fitness, they can't do drugs and alcohol in the same way. So I think for a lot... That's why a lot of footballers just end up like, "Right, I'm gonna have 15 cars or I'm gonna get a gambling addiction." (laughs) Because it's like everyone needs some kind of vice, I guess. I mean, all human beings need some kind of vice anyway. I think, I think that's how we're built. We're not meant to just live squeaky clean, like constantly. Like I think life's boring. Like, and it doesn't have to be sex or drugs and alcohol, but someone... You need something. You need something to obsess over that feels a little bit, like, naughty and a little bit edgy.

    6. SB

      What was the cost? Because, I mean, all that sounds great, but there's got to be ... Everything in life has a cost.

    7. EG

      Well, the cost was that I, you know, I broke a, a, a, a lovely girl's heart and, you know, um, i- took her a while to deal with that, I'm sure, afterwards. And, you know, I, I probably upset quite a few people along the way. I know my parents weren't proud of me, even though I was doing really well career-wise. Um, there was like a moment where there was a bit of an intervention. You know, it was almost like, "What have you become?" You know, "We're not proud of you. This is not cool."

    8. SB

      Wha- what caused that?

    9. EG

      I just, I think there was just this one weekend at Glastonbury where I just kind of went down with my band and crew and my girlfriend and my sister, and I just kind of just completely went off the radar and kind of disappeared for 48 hours. And then everyone was like, "Where is he?" And obviously Glastonbury's a crazy place to get lost in anyway, and then I just turned up 15 minutes before I went on stage. So I was still professional (laughs) , but, uh, I was like, I was, uh, I was in an absolute state around like 2012, may- no, 2010s, 2012, wa- wasn't great.

    10. SB

      When your family stage an intervention, what does that look like in, like, real terms? Is that, like, a phone call or is that-

    11. EG

      Well, no, it's like, sort of catching me off guard and sitting me down in a, in a room, you know, and showing me how disappointed they are.

    12. SB

      And how did you take that?

    13. EG

      Well, it's just not nice to see your parents cry, you know? It's quite ... You know, it still took me a f- a few years after that to get my act together. Um, but yeah, I ju- I don't, I don't feel like there's any real shame in it, looking back. Like, I'm not, I'm not saying I'm proud of it, but I just feel like certain mistakes had to be made. It's like, in the same way that I don't really have any regrets about anything, I'm just like, everything I've ever done in life, however bad it is, whoever I've hurt or whatever, I've learnt from it and I've tried to make amends for it, you know?

    14. SB

      Did y- is there, in hindsight, information that you didn't have that caused you to choose that path? Like, is there something you, you, you now h- know that is stopping you from repeating that cycle and just continuing to do that?

    15. EG

      Well, it's just like ... I mean, like, m- my mum always said, like, as a kid she was like, I was, I was a liar as a kid. But she said they were like, not really lies that really hurt anyone. She said, "I just knew that you, you had this overly creative brain and this imagination, so you would just take situations and just exaggerate them."

    16. SB

      Mm.

    17. EG

      And she was like, "And it kinda makes sense that you're a songwriter and you're a storyteller, and I get that." And looking back now, you never ... There were certain times where I know it would've really upset my parents, and my mum in particular, 'cause she was spending more time than me probably day-to-day. Um, you know, I'd tell them like little white lies about scenarios that had happened, just because I sort of enjoyed the fact maybe that I were c- attention-seeking, could manipulate a situation, that I could t- take a situation and my imagination run wild with it and create other scenarios. And I think that was, uh, it's something that I don't do at all anymore, but, like, lying as a kid and then carrying that through, I didn't ... Then I obviously realized at school you can't get away with certain things because, you know, there's structure and there's teachers, so it, it probably calmed me down a bit then. And then I'd had, like, four serious girlfriends and I'd never once cheated on them, 'cause it just wasn't on my radar, wasn't the way I'd been brought up. But it was just like, I guess ... And, and I've spoken to other g- f- guys about this, and girls, it's, it's like you have that first time you do it, you feel bad, and then one becomes two, and then two becomes five, and five becomes 10, and then it just kind of spirals out of control and you kind of just, like, numb your brain to it. And I just don't think ... There's no, no one signs a record deal or gets into the music industry and has a record label or a manager come up to them and go, "By the way, there's a good chance you're gonna be really successful and famous in the next year or two years, so read this book (laughs) ."

    18. SB

      (laughs)

    19. EG

      "Here's a pamphlet on how to not be a C-U-N-T." (laughs)

    20. SB

      People often say that if you are a late, late to lose your virginity, you, somet- y- when you get into your adulthood you kind of make up for lost time.

    21. EG

      Well, that's w- that was with me. So all my friends were losing their virginity at 13 and 14, and I was 17 and a half, so I was probably one, one of the last at my school. (laughs) Maybe it's just the part of South London that (laughs) I grew up in.

    22. SB

      (laughs)

    23. EG

      But, um, yeah, so I used to hear stories from other, other guys at school about some of the stuff they were doing at 14, and that was just like absolutely mind-blowing. But I definitely feel that because I was a late bloomer, then by the time I was in my, like, early to late 20s, I just went crazy with it, because you're almost doing it for your younger self, you know?

    24. SB

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    25. EG

      (laughs)

    26. SB

      That was what I, I suspected, 'cause I was, I was reading through and I, I remember thinking, yeah, if you're a bit of a late bloomer and then you get it full on, you know, in-

    27. EG

      Yeah, yeah.

    28. SB

      ... your early 20s because you become a, this star and it's thrown at you, it's almost like-

    29. EG

      Well, 'cause yeah-

    30. SB

      ... The Forbidden Fruit way.

  6. 23:50 – 26:07

    Hating yourself

    1. EG

    2. SB

      Was there a point where you, you, you felt that, where you thought, do you know, "I'm doing all this, but I hate myself"?

    3. EG

      Mm.

    4. SB

      Was that 2011, 12?

    5. EG

      Yeah, and then luckily I just, and then I met Erin.

    6. SB

      What was ... So y- but specifically, so was there, was there days where you were waking up thinking, "What the fuck is my life?"

    7. EG

      Yeah. Like, it's, it also is like you come offstage at a gig at 11:00 PM in Manchester. I remember there was this one week where it was just like, I look back as it being one of the worst weeks ever, where-Um, I was just splitting up properly with my ex, who I'd cheated on a lot. You know, I'd ... moving out from hers. I was pretty lonely 'cause I was living with my step-grandad in, like, a, an ex-council house in Fulham. Um, and he was, like, 93. And the whole house was like ... it smelt quite bad and it was falling apart. I mean it was ... Bless him, he was in great shape and ... for 93 and ... but obviously the house wasn't the cleanest, nicest place you could live. I didn't really have much cash, even though I was starting to become quite famous and successful. It was like, the money tends to come six months later. You know, you have a number one single or Kickstart's at number three in the charts, your festival fees will go up tenfold, but probably not until the following summer.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. EG

      Um, so I was still living with him, so I was quite, I was quite embarrassed to bring friends or even girls back to this place. Um, so I just sp- I moved, finally moved out from, well, my ex, which has had to happen. It was a long time coming. And then I was like ... (sighs) I, I was doing a gig in Manchester, came off stage at 11:00, and then I had to be up at f- 4:30 AM the next day to shoot a music video, 'cause we had to catch a, catch the sunrise. And I was like, "Why can't we do sunset and pretend it's sunrise?" You know, so I can actually go home and have a sleep. They were like, "Oh, the director can't work that late," or something. And I remember looking a- um, uh, when I looked back, I've n- I've never watched the music video since. It was for a video called Two Lives, and the lyric is actually called ... it's like, "Two lives, I'm living two lives. Don't know which w- side of me is where the truth lies." That's the chorus.

    10. SB

      (laughs) .

    11. EG

      Um, so it was like, a poignant moment recording a music video for a song on about three hours sleep. I looked awful in the video, like th- huge bags under my eyes, and I went back from the video shoot to this house, uh, where my step-grandad was,

  7. 26:07 – 33:42

    Self medicating

    1. EG

      and just sort of sat in bed feeling quite lonely, and then the next day doing, like, a f- a magazine cover shoot and then going straight to Radio One to record a live lounge and then going out for dinner that night for, you know, like, for a PR/press junket or something. And then the next day was, like, another TV show and another radio show, and then I called this girl to come round just 'cause I literally just wanted a cuddle, (laughs) you know? And then was up with her till, like, 4:00 AM, and then up at 8:00 AM and then sat in a taxi for, like, an hour and a half to go across to, like, Hackney. The whole time I was just going like ... I remember just getting to the end of the week just going like, "I can't do this. I can't do this." Like ... And I remember saying to my manager, I was just like, "We need to start canceling this TV and radio." And he was just like, you know, he was like, "You can't cancel going on Graham Norton." You know, you can't cancel going on ... you can maybe cancel - no offense - you can probably cancel going on Sunday Brunch. (laughs) Sorry, Sunday Brunch. Um, but-

    2. SB

      You just got banned for something important.

    3. EG

      Yeah, and then, and then you're almost like, "When's my next day off?" And he was, "In eight days." You know, stuff like that. He was like, "What have we got this weekend again?" Because I would be like, at this point, I wouldn't look at the diary 'cause it would scare me. It was like, "Well, you've got, um, Ibiza Rocks Friday, and then you've got Global Gathering Saturday, and then you've got, um, something in Finland on Sunday." And then I was like, "Oh, I've got Monday off." "No, no, no. We're ... you've got Majorca and then you've got Ibiza again Tuesday." And then you get into each thing and you're just so completely knackered, like, fucked, that you're just like, "Okay, I'll have a drink." (laughs)

    4. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. EG

      You know, I'm drinking on the plane, drinking when I get there, and then you, you can't remember the gigs. I remember, like, you'd look, looked at the photos and the videos and you're like, the crowd were having an amazing time. Thank God that I can do this even when I'm at my lowest, when I've got no energy left, when I've had six, seven drinks. But I look back on it now, that was one of the worst weeks ever. And then, I think that was maybe, like, June 2011, album came o- no, no, July, and then I went to Australia in, in October that year to do my first ever Australian tour, and that's when I met Erin.

    6. SB

      The ... When you're, like, sort of self-medicating to kind of deal with the pace of life or whatever, it tends to be the case, I mean, just from sitting here speaking to musicians, that you're, you're not far ... especially when you're like, y- you use the word lonely, with, like, a lack of connection. You're not far away there from mental health issues, like anxiety and depression and those kinds-

    7. EG

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      ... of things, typically. When you find yourself without connection in your life, m- self-medicating, stressed by just looking at the thought of this hectic schedule, a lack of sleep. I can't imagine the diet was phenomenal.

    9. EG

      No, it wasn't. I mean, like, I, I've always been into fitness and running, and I would, like, even when I was really, really knackered, like, I've got my apartment still in, in Fulham right next to Craven Cottage, and it's actually ... That, that was a big help, because that whole period it's just like waking up every day. The river gave me so much calm, like-

    10. SB

      Where you anxious?

    11. EG

      Yeah, but you'd just get up and sit on the balcony and have, like ... I'd make fried eggs on toast or whatever, beans on toast, and just look across the river, and I live in the part of the river where there's no buildings opposite. It's like the Barnes-

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. EG

      ... Wetlands Center, so you feel like you're in the countryside. So that's a great escapism straight away-

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. EG

      ... from London, uh, s- in general. So I feel like when I bought that, um, you know, subconsciously I was probably thinking about this peace and tranquility escape from whenever I'm home. I l- close the door to my apartment and I've got the river there.

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. EG

      But it was, uh ... I think I was quite smart in that I, it ... whenever I could, I would go for a swim or I'd go for a, a run 'cause I remember my dad used to say to me when he was ... So when my mum was pregnant with me, my dad was working, as I said, two hours up in Birmingham, so driving four hours a day, um, 'cause it was the only job he could get at the time. He was working for a, um, computer services company, um, Nixdorf Siemens Group.

    18. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. EG

      And he had alopecia as well from stress. His dad was dying. He was pregnant with my mum and he was training for the marathon. And I think that, you know, stress-related alopecia, it's quite clear why he lost his hair given-

    20. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    21. EG

      ... all, everything I ... the aforementioned things.

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. EG

      Um, and ... But I think running is what saved him.... from a very young age, like that time alone. And like, whenever I go for a run to this day, I don't listen to music. I, I, uh, most people go for, to l- listen to music, for fitness whatever, that is my brain escapism, and it's either swimming, yoga or running. It's the only time when I can not think about anything else and whenever I was anxious or stressed about things, th- those are the things that saved me. I actually think that living by the river, and even if I did it twice a week during those stressful times, just being able to get up and just go for a four mile jog, I don't know where my head would've been like if I hadn't of got that, like been able to go out and do that and run by, specifically by the river, not through a city-

    24. SB

      Mm.

    25. EG

      ... with traffic lights and cars.

    26. SB

      (laughs)

    27. EG

      Like on, straight onto the towpath, over Hammersmith Bridge, along the river, by fields, over Putney Bridge, back through Bishop's Park, pretty much the area I grew up in. And then also, I got to the stage where I was like, I was calling girls up (laughs) to come over and it was like, "Who's gonna give the best cuddle and who's gonna stroke me to sleep?" Like that's where, again, not, didn't really make a conscious decision, but looking back now I feel like I don't just wanna have like meaningless sex, I just wanna actually be held. You know, bearing in mind my mum, dad and sister all lived on the other side of the world by this point, they'd moved to Australia, you know, didn't have a girlfriend, like I had my mates, you know, in my band who would, in a way traveling with a band back then, so I travel with a DJ now but back then I traveled drums, guitar, bass and then, you know, five or six crew, it was kind of like a little family on the road-

    28. SB

      Mm.

    29. EG

      ... so that was probably better than if I'd been with just a DJ, that would've been quite lonely.

    30. SB

      Mm.

  8. 33:42 – 35:50

    What made you get out of that reckless phase?

    1. SB

      what was it that made you go from being someone who was dishonest in your relationships and would, would cheat on your partner to being honest and committed? Was there a catalyst event? Was it Erin? Was it-

    2. EG

      I just think when I met Erin, we just sort of fell so head over in heels with each other, within pretty much the first night, um, and then she'd drop me off at the airport and she was almost a bit tearful. She was like, "I don't think I'm ever gonna see you again, I bet you've got a girlfriend in every city." I was like, "Not at all."

    3. SB

      (laughs)

    4. EG

      Just like, "Got a few..." No, I was like, "I've got a few in London, uh, but no," I was like, "You, you think too highly of me, I haven't got a girlfriend in every city." And then she called her mum and her mum was like, "I bet he's got a girlfriend in every city." She was like, "No, no," she goes, "Honestly, I think we're gonna get married," after we'd spent the night together. Um, but that was my sort of moment, I was just like, reset, go back to who you've always known you were w- w- meant to be. You know, be the person that your mum and dad raised, which is to be honest and faithful and...

    5. SB

      And you were honest with her from the jump?

    6. EG

      We basically, we had this r- it was weird 'cause we got to know each other a lot over FaceTime and then she'd come to London for two weeks then go back to Sydney and then I'd go to Australia maybe for a week and then we'd speak on the phone for three weeks and then she'd come to London again for maybe a month and then I'd go spend Christmas in Australia, do some festivals but also see my mum and dad and my sister-

    7. SB

      Mm.

    8. EG

      ... and spend time, I lived with her in Bondi. But because that time becomes so precious, you tell each other absolutely everything. So I think we'd been together six months and we knew everything about each other in terms of, uh, exes, uh, worst fears, you know, biggest achievements, biggest wants, desires, everything sexually, all the partners we'd been with, like you just, it was almost like speed dating crash course of like, you know, w- when, when you, when people are together, generally they'll be intimate with each other or they'll just laugh and giggle and go out for dinner, even meet each other's friends and so on. When you're chatting over FaceTime it tends to be more like an interview.

    9. SB

      Mm.

    10. EG

      You know? So you end up oversharing.

    11. SB

      What has Erin taught you about love? There,

  9. 35:50 – 37:37

    Advice for someone in a reckless phase

    1. SB

      there'll be a lot of people that're listening to your story and they'll think, "Maybe I'm in the reckless phase where I'm, I'm sampling all the forbidden fruit."

    2. EG

      (laughs)

    3. SB

      And then it seems quite clear from your story that you, you met this person and, as you said, you kind of both changed each other, but what, what, what advice can you impart on, on someone who's in that reckless phase?

    4. EG

      Oh, uh, I think if people are in a reckless phase, you, you either, you're like, "I'm, I need to do this now," and I don't know how long you're gonna do that for but people, if you're smart, you can work it out. I s- I've got guys I know now who are like, they, (sighs) that because th- you know, they work in high intensity, high pressured worlds of like finance and hedge funds and I know a lot of guys who wanna settle down but also on the side wanna-... continue having these other experiences with women. And I think they feel that they have a right to do that. Now, I'm not sure if that's because of the mentality of a lot of the people that they work in that world with, you know, like it's a boys' club sort of thing. And, and that's, that's, you know, that's just how it is, I feel, like, some of them. You know, like, there's a lot of guys who, like, seem to be happily married with kids, my age, bit older, and seem to have all these other girlfriends and flings and bits on the side.

    5. SB

      If you'd met Erin at another f- phase in your life though, do you think it would've worked out? Do you ... So I'm trying-

    6. EG

      No, I met, we met at a perfect time.

    7. SB

      That's what I'm thinking, yeah.

    8. EG

      She'd just split up with someone.

    9. SB

      Like, timing is a, is a key factor here.

    10. EG

      Yeah, she'd been single for maybe seven weeks, and I'd been single for maybe three months.

    11. SB

      If you'd met her at, say, 20, I don't know, 5?

    12. EG

      I don't think so. If I'd have met her two or three years earlier, it wouldn't have worked. We met at exactly, right? It was almost like the stars aligned, the universe decided that we were gonna collide at that moment.

    13. SB

      You mentioned she was a Gemini,

  10. 37:37 – 44:27

    Spirituality and breath work

    1. SB

      and then you just mentioned the universe decided. Are you at all, um, spiritual?

    2. EG

      I wasn't, and I am now.

    3. SB

      Did she have a role to play in that?

    4. EG

      Yeah, I guess so. Because, you know, I just, I used to just think that I was in control of everything, and I now ... I was one of these people, I was like, "I don't believe in luck, you make your own luck." Because that was what, kind of what my dad would instill in me. And I've never been religious, and I never used to believe in zodiacs, but then I, I did used to believe, you know, after I'd, uh, read some Stephen Hawking stuff.

    5. SB

      Hmm.

    6. EG

      And then you start reading books on lateral thinking and the laws of attraction and so on. You sort of go, "Oh, actually, yeah, we are just atoms just bouncing off one o- one another," just like, because we've got brains and we can make our own decisions, but that doesn't still mean that we aren't in control of the energy around us, and the energy around other people and how we collide and then what things come out of that. Um, so as soon as I got my head around that, and then Erin started explaining the zodiac and when you were born and what time of day you were born and, you know, the, the distance between (laughs) planets and so on, and what moon it was that day. I used to ... I didn't- I guess I didn't have the patience for it before.

    7. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. EG

      And then, like, she started explaining, you go, "Actually, yeah." And that's why c- certain people have certain traits and so on. I'm not that ... I'm more into, like, spirituality since, um, you know, I'd started doing yoga, for instance, and meditation, you know, like two, three times a week we'll do a sauna and ice bath, put the kids to bed. We'll do, like, 10 minutes sauna, two minutes ice.

    9. SB

      (laughs)

    10. EG

      10 minutes sauna, two minutes ice, and then you just come out and just feel like (sniffs) . You know? You feel so alive.

    11. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    12. EG

      Um, and then the moment you kind of have kids and you're like, "Oh my God, there's these other human beings that we made," you do get in touch a lot more with your, your spiritual side, I think, 'cause you're just like, you know, you c- it's like science and spirituality can go side by side, I think.

    13. SB

      Hmm.

    14. EG

      You know, I think that spiritual awareness of oneself actually comes from having a greater understanding of science and the way the universe works in general.

    15. SB

      What impact has that had on your life, yoga, breath work and all that stuff?

    16. EG

      I think the breath work's been incredible.

    17. SB

      Yeah.

    18. EG

      Like, so if it doesn't involve, like, ice or meditation even, like I listen to, um, there's a guy I know back in Brisbane, he's got something called The Breath Collective, and he gets people in, like, groups of 20 round to his house, clears out all the so- sofa out the way, and the TV, and they all sit on the floor on their backs with their eyes closed, and it's like, it's that Wim Hof style of, you know, like, (inhales) short breath out, like deep breath in, short breath out, and then holding your breath, you know, and that moment, and you feel all the physical changes in your body. Like, I'll do it couple of nights a week. I did it last night 'cause I wanted to have a good night's sleep-

    19. SB

      Hmm.

    20. EG

      ... and there was a lot of stuff going on in my head. But, like, it's hard, if you'd have tried to sell that to a younger me, I would've been like, "You're having a fucking laugh, mate."

    21. SB

      (laughs)

    22. EG

      "You want me to spend 10 minutes of my day breathing in and out in silence, what are you ... " 'Cause I just didn't understand how to relax and how to be at peace with myself and how to actually deal with my inner thoughts and inner demons, you know?

    23. SB

      How much credit does Erin deserve for this?

    24. EG

      Um, (sighs) a huge amount, really. She's, um ... Just watching someone grow a baby and give birth and then breastfeed them for a year is, like, one of the most sobering experiences ever, you know. It's like it just blows your mind. Like, I just think the moment, the rush of adrenaline, endorphins, whatever, that I got when she gave birth to our first standing up.

    25. SB

      Standing up?

    26. EG

      Yeah. She'd been training her whole way through her pregnancy as well, like, she found a form of, uh, pregnancy HIIT training, which had been approved by her, her midwife and her GP. Obviously not crazy jumping around, but, you know, squats and lunges and, and so on, and push-ups. Obviously not much ab work. But she was reading lots of, um, research saying, you know, the, the healthier the mother is, you know, y- yeah. It's like if you eat nuts during pregnancy, child has no chance of having a nut allergy. Like, if the mother eats enough nuts during it. Um, likewise if she gets her heart rate up to a, a safe level, that baby will be born with a, li- li- less likely to have a heart condition. And there's other research shows that if the mother does her X amount of training throughout, you know, this even goes back to, say, the hunter-gatherer sort of period where a, a female might have to be on the move constantly-

    27. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    28. EG

      ... or on the run-

    29. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    30. EG

      ... whilst holding a baby, and what that instills in the baby's genetic makeup when they're born. Like, you know, there's, there's ... I'd have to find the research papers, but there's stuff that she was reading about your baby will have zero chance of asthma if you do X amount of exercise whilst you're growing that baby.

  11. 44:27 – 48:09

    The miscarriage

    1. SB

      of the things that I read about was you tragically had a miscarriage on your second.

    2. EG

      Yeah, the second one. I think we got so, I don't wanna say cocky, so, we were so excited, and the first one seemed to go so well, um, everything from when she found out she was pregnant to giving birth, that you're not meant to tell people that early on, but then when she found out she was pregnant with the second one that we lost, it had only been five weeks, and really, you're meant to wait quite a bit longer and have your first scan and so on. We went around and told everyone, and then she lost it a few wee- a few weeks later just before, you know, like the safe date. So that was pretty, pretty tough. I r- I remember I was invited onto Lorraine-

    3. SB

      Hmm.

    4. EG

      ... Kelly's show, and I was meant to go on and talk about a single and a tour, and then they kind of blindsided me, and it was just before I went on, they went, "We just found out you lost the second baby. Do you wanna make the whole interview about that?" And I was like, "For what reason?" They were just like, "Because we've never had a guy come on here and talk about it before. He's definitely not like a celebrity." And I was like, "Okay, cool." (laughs) So the whole interview became about that, and it was actually, it was quite positive because I got so many messages from guys afterwards just going, "That's amazing you went on and spoke about that." Because guys are just like, "The woman's just lost a baby. Uh, guys have just got to get on with it and deal with it by themselves, just do everything they can to support the mother."

    5. SB

      What was it like for you?

    6. EG

      Well, it was really tough 'cause you just don't know how to, you're like, "Oh, my God, this is actually something that was living inside of her that has now died, and I've just got to be there for her, and I'm just gonna have to like suck it up and get on with it." 'Cause no one ever really asks the dad-

    7. SB

      How are you feeling?

    8. EG

      ... "How are you feeling?" It's not in, really in our, uh, uh, in our society, it's not normal. Everyone just goes, "Oh, my God, how is she?"

    9. SB

      How were you feeling?

    10. EG

      I was just like, just helpless really. It was awful. But yeah, Erin's m- um, dad was great, and my dad was great as well in terms of, uh, you know, "How do you feel? How do you think you should feel? How do you wanna feel? How do you, what do you think you need to do to get through this?" Especially when you've already got a baby- (laughs)

    11. SB

      Hmm.

    12. EG

      ... and then you're just like, how beautiful that whole experience was, and you're like, "Oh, if I could have another one," and then you start, "Is this going to happen with the next one, the next one?" Yeah. Tough.

    13. SB

      Yeah. Men don't... I mean, all of the, even like... Men aren't really even taught how to deal with how they're feeling themselves, right? So like-

    14. EG

      No. I, I, I, I've actually, d- you know, doing stuff like this and doing interviews with either magazines or television shows, I've realized there's been, sometimes there's been first times I've spoken about things that I should've probably spoken about with friends or family a long time ago, you know? Because we're just, you're like, it's either the whole macho thing of you don't talk about that, you know?

    15. SB

      Hmm.

    16. EG

      Just get on with it. Like that's a woman's thing, y- you know, when-

    17. SB

      Hmm.

    18. EG

      ... women discuss things like... Whether, I'm not even talking about miscarriages, I'm talking about relationships or, you know...

    19. SB

      It's one of the most amazing things in my life that I get to do a podcast, which of course needs money to, to, to fuel, and I have a sponsor like Huel who I genuinely believe is gonna help every single person who starts their Huel journey change their life. Because this podcast, the central intention of this podcast is to help people live better lives, and we get to sit here, and I get to promote to you a product which has not only helped me change my life, but is gonna help millions of people and is helping millions of people live a nutritionally complete life. It does all of that in a small drink that tastes good. There are other products. There's foods. There's the hot and savory collection, many other things. But for me, this ready-to-drink is the absolute savior of my diet throughout the week where I'm moving at such pace. If you haven't tried Huel, give it a try, and if you do, tag me.

  12. 48:09 – 52:25

    Your future

    1. SB

      When you're looking forward at your future then, so you've got this eighth studio album coming out. What, what, what, what do you want the next five, 10 years to look like in terms of your career?

    2. EG

      I would love to accidentally somehow have a chart hit again, just to remember what it feels like, you know?

    3. SB

      Interesting.

    4. EG

      Yeah. It's not key to me, but it would be amazing to have like a number o- a number one album or a top 10 single, you know, probably be based on streams rather than sales in this day and age, but-

    5. SB

      Why?

    6. EG

      ... you know, some, some... Just 'cause I wanna remember how it feels.

    7. SB

      Have you forgotten?

    8. EG

      Yeah, I've forgotten what it kind of feels like. This was 10 years ago, you know, I had, I had like 22 top 40 singles.... um, like seven top 10s, two number ones. But I haven't had anything for so long, but I'm still going. Like my, my tour sells out in a way that you would assume that I was still having hits, but then you realize that hits aren't that important. What's important for me is just making songs that go off when you perform live, you know? So, you know, I did an hour on Saturday night. There were probably seven hits in there. The other, uh, nine songs weren't hits, but they still go off, right, the hits. People en- majority of the crowd know them word for word. The energy is there, you know, the build, the drop. I did the last sold-out tour in the UK of any artist before COVID-

    9. SB

      Hmm.

    10. EG

      ... um, which was, uh, March 2020. I played, uh, Kentish Town Forum sold out, March the 7th. I was back in Australia by the 9th. I think 10 days later, we went into lockdown in Brisbane, and then, and the rest of the UK and the world followed pretty much by April that year. So I played the last ever tour, and then I played the first festival anywhere in the world after COVID. I mean, COVID was still... Everyone was in lockdown in England, America, and so on. I played up in Darwin, in the Northern Territory in Australia. I played to 5,000 people.

    11. SB

      Crazy.

    12. EG

      They'd had 23 COVID cases. So as long as you go up there with a negative test.

    13. SB

      Yeah.

    14. EG

      So I was at a festival in October, October 2021. Uh, no, October 2020.

    15. SB

      Hmm.

    16. EG

      Um, playing a gig in Darwin to 5,000 people, and then I came back and just did my January-February tours. I did one of the first sold-out tours after COVID. So I've, I feel like live music and my performance is like my bread and butter. It's what I know best. It's what I do best. But it would be really nice to, you know, taste a little bit of success again with a, with a song that maybe like... 'Cause it's still... Don't forget this, this. I'm still in this situation where I've got 40 gigs this summer. Anyone who follows me on Instagram is like, "Wow, amazing. You're having the best year forev- forever." But I still bump into people in the street, and it's like, a taxi driver on the way here today, he's like, "You're Xub, weren't you?" I hear him go, "What you been doing? You haven't released new music for years." I thought, "Well, released an album in June. I did release another album last year, and..."

    17. SB

      How does that feel?

    18. EG

      It's quite g- it just amazes y- it just goes shows, goes to show you that there's, there's... Some people think if you're not on Jonathan Ross or Graham Norton or on Capital FM or on Radio One, and you're not playing Radio One's Big Weekend or doing Capital's Summertime Ball, then you've retired. And then there's another bunch of people who hear you in the clubs or listen to you on Spotify playlists and have no idea even what Radio One or Capital FM is. And then there's your diehards who follow you and know every move you're doing from your Instagram. But you know, th- I don't tweet that much anymore because it's become quite a toxic place. But you know, the, you meet people and they're just like, "Oh, I didn't even know you were playing, but where..." You know, you'll be like, they'll be like, "Oh, mate, w- what you doing in Newcastle?" You're like, "I'm playing at Newcastle Academy tonight." They're like, "But I was following youse on Twitter. I've not seen anything on your..." You know, 'cause I used to be known for tweeting quite a lot back around 2011 and '12. I used to get into a lot of trouble and have arguments and such on there. But you realize that everyone has their way of discovering and digesting, and discovering, you know, discovering music, um, the same way we do with films and so on, or how you read about... Some people just read BBC Sport. Some people just follow a Twitter account which updates you on the Premier League. And there's some people who only find out about music from Spotify, and there's some people who still only religiously listen to the Capital Breakfast Show every morning. And the thing that I find is I just have to know where my fans are and what they want.

  13. 52:25 – 56:56

    People thinking you’re no longer making music

    1. EG

    2. SB

      There's always gonna be that group of people, though, that if you're not in the charts, they think that you've either retired or fallen off or something.

    3. EG

      Exactly, and they still think that's the case with me. So I'll be like... Even when I got a taxi to Brixton in February, 'cause I'd, I'd like to get a black taxis mainly 'cause my, one of my cou- my cousin's a black cab driver-

    4. SB

      Right.

    5. EG

      ... and he's... Uh, you can't like, you can't use Uber.

    6. SB

      (laughs)

    7. EG

      Um, I like the Tube, but whilst I'm blonde, which is for the foreseeable future, the Tube's not a safe place for me at the moment.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm. (laughs)

    9. EG

      Um, (laughs) it's a selfie central. Um, and then obviously, you have one or two, and then that leads to 10 more and 20 more. And I don't mind meeting the general public, I love it, but it also, it's nice to just sit on a tube and listen to music sometimes, rather than having constant photos. But this guy was like, "So what's you doing? Were you going... Was there, was, was there a gig planned tonight?" I was like, "Yeah, it's my gig." He's like, "Oh, what, I'm driving Xub to his own gig?" I was like, "Yeah, yeah, um, um, you're, you're taking me to soundcheck now." He went, "Oh, 'cause I swore you retired. You know, my, my eldest used to come watch you."

    10. SB

      Does that piss you off a bit?

    11. EG

      Yeah.

    12. SB

      (laughs)

    13. EG

      'Cause I'm like, when they're like, "My eldest used to watch you," I'm like, "Well, if he just followed me on Instagram, he could still keep up to date with my song releases and he can still come watch..." Anyway, I ended up putting all three of his kids and their partners on the guest list.

    14. SB

      Oh, really?

    15. EG

      And then I got a DM, I think from one of his sons the next day. I think his son was maybe 26. He was like, "Ah, it's time of my life. Reminding me when I was..." So you just realize that because you're not on Capital FM anymore, that certain people, if like, I don't know, they could be a painter decorator. They could be an estate agent. They could be a, you know, a taxi driver, whatever. But everyone has their go-to places for music.

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. EG

      And it might be like, in your office where you work, all day on, they have Radio One on.

    18. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. EG

      So whatever's on Radio One may dictate which festivals they go to or who they go-

    20. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    21. EG

      ... and see on tour 'cause it's advertised on there. It's like, you know, like, "Playing at V Festival, playing at Creamfields is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But if you're not, if, uh, other people only discover music from their spinning class-

    22. SB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    23. EG

      ... and whatever music's playing.

    24. SB

      Or TikTok.

    25. EG

      So if people message me and go, "Oh, your new single was on-

    26. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. EG

      ... in my spinning class today. I didn't even realize you were still releasing music." And you almost wanna go, "Well, I've released three albums-"

    28. SB

      Hmm.

    29. EG

      "... since then and, you know, 11 singles." But you can't... It is quite frustrating.

    30. SB

      Was there... When you left, you kinda left the... When you were at those labels and you were charting all the time with these, with these s- these like big global hits, you leave that game, and then it... Was there a moment where it was difficult to deal with the, what you've described there, where it was most difficult to deal with it, where people are going, "Where are you? Like where's, where's the music? Like why aren't you charting?

  14. 56:56 – 1:02:09

    Competing with a former version of yourself

    1. EG

      present the figures.

    2. SB

      I see this with artists that, that have that meteori- ... I mean, I sat here with Craig David, and he's a, ah, an example of an artist at 18 years old, I think he had a number one album, something fucking staggering. And then-

    3. EG

      So he's only like a year older than me. But in my mind, Craig David's like five or six years older-

    4. SB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    5. EG

      ... 'cause he was-

    6. SB

      So young.

    7. EG

      ... in the charts at the same age as I was listening to music.

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. EG

      So I was in clubs listening to garage music.

    10. SB

      Yeah, yeah, exactly.

    11. EG

      And he was on P- Top of the Pops.

    12. SB

      Yeah, exactly.

    13. EG

      Whereas I didn't have any success until eight years after that. So I was 26, 27.

    14. SB

      Yeah.

    15. EG

      It's-

    16. SB

      And there's a 22-year gap between-

    17. EG

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      ... when Craig David, I think, had his first one to his, his most-

    19. EG

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      ... recent album. Is there a thing of like you basically start competing with a former version of your success?

    21. EG

      You have to. You ... I only compete with myself. Like when I'm in the studio, I'm only competing with myself.

    22. SB

      But the former, the, the, the-

    23. EG

      Yeah, and my former person, which is why I say to you, like I'm s- over the moon that I've got my busiest summer in six years. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm, um, I'm so in love with this album. I'm still playing this album, like even though it's been finished for months. Um, but that's why I'm like, "I'd love to just taste that chart success again." Just once or twice. A, to shut up all the people who think I'm retired. And B, just to remember what it feels like. You know, it's, it's almost like a little validation that my career's gonna continue for the next five, six, seven, eight years as lo- as long as I stay fit and healthy and I keep producing music and people still wanna come and ... Th- you know, they choose one night a year they go out to a gig, 10 of their mates get absolute off their face and have the time of their life. If they ch- ... I want them to pick me for that. Then I've got a career.

    24. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. EG

      I don't need anything else. I don't need radio. I don't even really need streaming. Um, but it would just be nice to have that validation. And I shouldn't be sat here going, "I need validation," but it would be really nice to feel that again. So every time I get in a taxi, it's like, "Oh, it's John. Whoa. Right. Yeah. I heard you ... I saw you on Journal from Ross the other day. I thought you'd given up," you know? How's Australia?

    26. SB

      (laughs)

    27. EG

      Rather than just sitting there going, "I've never stopped releasing music. I've never stopped touring." Like I've been touring for 16 years. I've been releasing music for 16 years. But (laughs) -

    28. SB

      (laughs)

    29. EG

      ... you know what I mean?

    30. SB

      No, yeah, yeah.

  15. 1:02:09 – 1:04:33

    The new album

    1. SB

      you tell me about this album? Can I c- wh- when I, like, listen to some ... I wanna, I want, I need some kinda flavor of this, this eighth album.

    2. EG

      Um, there's ... I've never done drum and bass before, and there's two drum and bass tracks on it.

    3. SB

      Okay.

    4. EG

      Uh, I've, I used to, when I started MCing were- like, 15, it was mainly over UK garage, or garage. Garage. Um, and the 10 tracks on this album are garage. Um, and then there's three drill tracks-

    5. SB

      (laughs)

    6. EG

      ... um, with probably the best spitting I've ever done. There's like ... I'll play you a song afterwards, but there's a track where I'm just spitting straight for three minutes. Uh, we shot the first half of the video in a, uh, shipping container yard in Brisbane, which, being Brisbane, we got to use for free. (laughs)

    7. SB

      (laughs)

    8. EG

      Just like complete ... No regulations. Just like, "Yeah, mate."

    9. SB

      (laughs)

    10. EG

      "Uh, open the gate for you, we'll be back at eight."

    11. SB

      (laughs)

    12. EG

      "Just go where you want. Just don't, don't, don't break a leg or anything. Don't do anything stupid." Um, so we shot this video, which I directed, in a containing yard. And one of my mates who's in construction, we shot the second half of the video on the roof of his new apartment block, where I'm standing on top of the lift shaft, and then we've got drone footage going round me.

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. EG

      Um, very cost-effective video, and it's basically just me rapping solidly for three minutes, and I think it's probably the best rapping f- spitting I've ever done. It, I based it all on Busta Rhymes, that I used-

    15. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    16. EG

      ... you know, from back when I was, like, 17. So I'm just hoping, well, I know that when people s- hear this album, they're gonna go, "Fuck, he sounds, he sounds good. He sounds comfortable. He sounds the most confident. The best, like, performances I've ever heard him do." I, I truly believe that. Right? And I can't wait for people to hear it, because it's also like you associate drill music with, uh, gangs and (laughs) -

    17. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. EG

      ... knife crime and (laughs) selling drugs. And I've basically just taken inspiration from the beats, um, and just done Elliott. You know, I'm being true to myself. I'm not ... That was just what I've always done. It was just like I used to feel like, as I was saying to you just sort of fair before, I used to feel like I was this uninvited guest to rap and hip hop, because I felt like you needed certain credentials, you know, to do it. And then you slowly realize that, no, it's just like an art form, as long as you're respectful of the culture. It's just like, "What are you doing with that, that music? What, what story are you telling?" And you've always just gotta tell your own story, I guess.

  16. 1:04:33 – 1:06:18

    What matters?

    1. EG

    2. SB

      Having been through all of this, Elliott-

    3. EG

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... if I may call you Elliott. Having been through the fame, the, you know, the u- m- th- the ups and downs of the music industry. The, you know, the sex, the drugs, the rock and roll, all of it, and also the family, the kids, and all of that. If you were advising a younger Elliott-

    5. EG

      (laughs)

    6. SB

      ... who might be listening to this on what actually matters in terms of the components that make for a good life, what would you say now in hindsight, having tasted it all?

    7. EG

      (exhales deeply) Right now, I mean, like, being a dad is so, so important to me and so rewarding, especially once ... Well, the little one, Enyo, who's now four, who was a bit later with the speech, the fact he can now speak is like ... My young, my eldest, Evander, he was speaking at like eight, 18 months, he was saying words, and then our, our youngest didn't really start speaking 'til he was three. But now, it's not only just being able to communicate with them, but then listen to 'em speak to each other.

    8. SB

      (laughs)

    9. EG

      There's bonkers stuff that comes out of their mouth. It's just like, it's the most rewarding thing of the day. Like, I'll spend most of the day just writing down quotes they've said-

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. EG

      ... and send them to my mum and dad, or my sister, or to Erin's family, just like, "You won't believe," and like, the stuff that comes out of their mouth. That's, that's ... Like, for me, it's like I love cooking, I love food, I love fine dining, I love eating out. Like, food is so important to me. Training is so important to me. Sleep is important to me. Sex is important to me. Being a dad's important to me. And if I'm being totally honest, like, I make music for a living, but I could ... Right now, I love being on stage. But if it was a, someone was like, "You've got another year now. You're not gonna write one song or do another gig," I'd be totally happy with that, as long as I had all the other things.

    12. SB

      Interesting.

  17. 1:06:18 – 1:08:37

    The last guest question

    1. SB

      We have a, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest writes the question for the next guest.

    2. EG

      Okay.

    3. SB

      And I, I read it now, so I, I haven't seen this before. Um, it says-

    4. EG

      (laughs)

    5. SB

      ... "Of all the achievements in your life, which do you think made the biggest impact on another?"

    6. EG

      On another?

    7. SB

      I'm gonna guess they mean on-

    8. EG

      Oh, so everything I've achieved as a, another person?

    9. SB

      Yes. Of all the achievements in your life, which do you think made the biggest impact on another person?

    10. EG

      Um, that's interesting. That's a really good question.

    11. SB

      Achievements in your life, which one do you think-

    12. EG

      Um-

    13. SB

      ... ... made the biggest impact on someone else? That is a really interesting question.

    14. EG

      Well, do you know what I w- (sighs) what I would say, actually, and I could probably apply this t- to a few-... I'll apply it to two people, rather than just one person in particular. Is, there's a guy... Three, three of, three people in particular. So there was a guy, uh, called David Stewart, who was my guitarist for three-and-a-half years. Um, very different to me. He was like a private school-educated kid. Um, but... And, and, you know, grew up in f- in money, if you like, near, near Westbourne Grove. And we used to rib him quite a bit, he was like six, seven years younger than all of us. But he was a great kid. Really good guitarist, really good, uh, keyboard player. Great singer, good-looking. He always wanted to make it as a solo artist. And for whatever reason, this was around the same time Ed Sheeran started blowing up, where it was like, you could be the best-looking kid in the world, but... You know. No offense, Ed's a really good mate of mine, but (laughs) you know what I mean? Ed's not a model. Um, he's not that Justin Timberlake cut. But David Stewart, fair play to him, like we spent a lot of time writing songs together. I would try and hone his lyrics. He was amazing with melody. And he's now officially the most successful songwriter in the world, in terms-

    15. SB

      Really?

    16. EG

      ... of streams. So he wrote, uh, the last three Jonas Brothers singles, and he wrote, uh, Dynamite for BTS, which is-

    17. SB

      Wow.

    18. EG

      ... I think the third or fourth most streamed song of all time. It was the most streamed song of the last year. I'm not saying he owes that to me. But what I'm saying is, I know for a fact that his years on the road with me and the time of me writing songs with him, was instrumental in his drive and ambition-

Episode duration: 1:13:45

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