The Diary of a CEOFearne Cotton: THIS Is How To Build Confidence & Set Yourself Free | E116
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,596 words- 0:00 – 2:14
Intro
- FCFearne Cotton
I wanted to be liked, and I wanted people to think I was interesting, and so I had to pretend. And the voice in my head, this ego, kept saying I'm a piece of shit. That I still really have a problem with, and I've got to get better at. When you're in that headspace, not much makes sense anymore, and you have to start questioning everything. Otherwise, you just get stuck. The new path that I've forged, which isn't necessarily as mainstream and isn't as shiny or celebrated or whatever, but I can be truly me, and there's room to move, and there's room to change. It feels liberating.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one. Can you do me a favor if you're listening to this and hit the subscribe button, the follow button, wherever you're listening to this podcast? Thank you so much. Fearne Cotton. To me, she's the definition of authenticity, and she absolutely exudes self-awareness and wisdom because she's spent the last 10, 20 years understanding herself. She went through this remarkable journey of entering the public spotlight at just 15 years old, where she started working on TV. And up until her 30s, where she worked on BBC's Radio One, she remained front and center in British media. But behind the scenes, something else was going on, feeling like she wasn't being true to herself, and she was living someone else's life, like she was wearing a mask. It all came to a head in her early 30s, where she realized that something had to change. If her panic attacks and her depression was to end, she had to make big life changes, and this meant leaving her job and pursuing a completely different, uncertain, unknown path. Her story is remarkable, but this conversation was so incredibly valuable because Fearne is wise. She's done the work. And as she sits here today, she's able to tell us, to tell me, to tell you, the listener, how to avoid making some of the mistakes that she made in her life so that we can all get to our own very happy place. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (upbeat music)
- 2:14 – 12:28
Your early years
- SBSteven Bartlett
Fearne, I... One of the things that I got from reading about you, reading about, um, your story and reading your books was how self-analytical and self-aware you've become as the years have gone by, and it's pretty much central to a lot of what you do is, is really understanding yourself, having these conversations on Happy Place, and understanding others, which becomes a bit of a mirror sometimes when you have a, a podcast. So, when you look back at the, the start of your life, what were the things that were really formative to you that you've noticed in hindsight?
- FCFearne Cotton
I guess like most people, it's my parents and their work ethic and their outlook on life, and they're very, very different people. So, I've picked up very different things from both of them. So, my mum is tenacious, very honest. She gets things done. She's been very dynamic over the years, but her work ethic has been amazing. Like, when I was growing up, she had anywhere between one and four jobs at any one time, having to just sort of juggle life and get money on the table. So, I had that sort of, like, tenacious force in my life. But and then I also had my dad, who's so laid back, really super chilled, super creative. He only retired a couple of years ago, although he's sort of started working again. But he was a sign writer throughout his whole working life. So, I would go and watch him paint these beautiful signs by hand, obviously back in the day, and he was always drawing and painting at home, and I would do the same. So, I've always had a huge love of, of art and creating. And my dad's a really good storyteller, and he's very funny. And my mum's really social and really brilliant at talking to people. So, I, I kind of just observed them. You know, I wasn't actively doing it as a kid, but by osmosis, you, you take in all of this information and, and just what you're seeing as a, as a child growing up. So, I have my mum and dad to thank for everything really. You know, they, they gave me the sort of stability and love to do what I wanted, but also they showed me work ethic, which I've always really held on tight to, because I wanna do well, and I'm not scared to say that. I, I want to, to succeed and do well in what I'm doing, and I know that requires a lot of work.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about school? How were you in school?
- FCFearne Cotton
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, I heard not so, not so great.
- FCFearne Cotton
(laughs) Um, I was good, I guess, when I was tiny. I wanted to sort of stay in line. I wasn't a rebel. I didn't wanna get in trouble. I was terrified of authority or getting a detention. So, I was pretty well-behaved. And then I guess in my teen years, I started to just think, "This is so boring. And it's gray. It's gray outside, and it's gray in here, and there must be something other than this sort of suburban life that I'm in." I mean, it was all fine. I was a very lucky kid who grew up with loving parents and a brother, and I had a school to go to, but I just found it so boring. And that's why I just started daydreaming constantly, and I guess that's where I started getting in a teeny bit of trouble. I was dreaming of all of these other options other than the ones I was being presented. You know, you have to fill in the form of, "What career option are you gonna have?" And it would, would always come back with something that was relatively social, but it was nothing to do with what I was interested in. So, I thought, "I'm not doing any of this crap. I wanna do something that makes my heart sing." And that, that was always, at that stage, performing in some way. So, I, I luckily found a brilliant local dance and drama school. It was in a church hall. It was run by all of these young, cool, brilliant dancers, singers, actors who were all in the West End doing stuff, but then running this little local dance school on the side. And that was my everything. So, at school, I was just, like, watching the clock, thinking, "When can I get out of here to get to my dance school?" And I danced every day after school, all Saturday, all Sunday. And that just felt...... incredible. Like, it was pure escapism, getting to just listen to amazing music and learn incredible dance routines. I'm so grateful to Alex and Chris, the, the two people that, that ran the dance school. And, um, it just was the, the coolest place to be and to hang out. And I would spend every second there that I could.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So if I'd asked you at that age what you wanna be when you grow up, post that dance school experience-
- FCFearne Cotton
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... what would you have said to me?
- FCFearne Cotton
Probably an actor or a, like, a backing dancer on Top of the Pops was very appealing at that point. Like, "I wanna be in a crop top and cargo pants dancing behind a cool pop star." That was very appealing to me. But I think I really wanted to act because it felt like pure escapism. And we did all these brilliant shows, little tiny local theaters, but really overly rehearsed and sort of, you know, well done, well thought through by our, the sort of dance school teachers. And we had amazing teachers, you know, people straight from Cats coming offstage and teaching us routines, or Saturday Night Fever, whatever it might be. And it, uh, yeah, it just felt exciting and fun and something completely different to the mundane reality of going to school and, you know, my parents working really hard and just that mundane routine. It just felt like a complete break from it. So I think acting was, was the goal. I went very off-piste (laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you believe when you were 13, 14 that that was possible?
- FCFearne Cotton
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You believed it was possible?
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah, and I don't know why because I didn't know anyone in that world. It... I was at a local dance school. I wasn't at sort of like RADA or even Sylvia Young's. I was at a local dance school in a church. But I think the combination of being a big dreamer, like having wild fantasies that I would just love escaping to. Obviously this is before phones and social media, so your imagination was kind of where it was at.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
And I would dream big. And also my parents, they were never sort of like pushy stage parents. They were too busy working, but they were certainly encouraging, like, "You like this stuff? You keep doing it. You, you know, go all day Saturday, go all day Sunday." They were certainly encouraging. And obviously, that combined with a huge amount of naivety (laughs) allowed me to believe that I could do it. And I think it's good to have that naivety as a youngster 'cause you become jaded as you get older, and you see the pitfalls, and you see where you've made mistakes. And I miss that naivety because I don't really have any of it anymore. I kinda know what I'm stepping into. I second-guess the bad stuff that's gonna happen. I'm probably overly cautious. Whereas back then, I could be ridiculously wild and brave because I was naïve, and it got me somewhere. And I, I sometimes miss that naivety, I guess.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I couldn't relate more-
- FCFearne Cotton
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to that feeling of just the, the preciousness of naivety, um-
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and also how that decays as we become adults and the world starts to make us be a bit more realistic. Then that term realism is a bit-
- FCFearne Cotton
I know real- It's so boring being realistic. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, it's really imprisoning.
- FCFearne Cotton
It is. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
15 years old, you get a spot on a Disney show by hook or by crook. Seems that it was quite a-
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah. Fate, I guess, really.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FCFearne Cotton
It was a g- like most brilliant game-changing moments, lots of factors. So I was at this local dance school, and one of the moms of another kid worked in TV. She had said to one of the, um, dance school teachers, "We wanna audition a couple of kids," or, "I know someone that's auditioning kids for this-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... "this Disney Club Show." So I went along to this audition with my nan 'cause my mom was at work. And my nan, obviously this was completely not my nan's world whatsoever, my dear Nan Sylvia. So we went into London, to Kensington, to this audition space, and there were loads of kids. I felt completely out of place. They were all from the big dance schools, Anna Chaires, Sylvia Young's, and they were all talking about that and saying, "Oh, what show are you doing?" They were all in Les Mis or whatever. And I was going, "Oh shit, I haven't done anything. I go to a local dance school, and I do little shows in my local theater." I had done nothing of any prestige, and I felt like I shouldn't be there. And I was trying to not let that get the better of me. But again, I think naivety and lack of experience really helped me, like benefited me in that circumstance. And I went into the little audition room, and I was told to speak to the camera, which I'd never done before 'cause I'd just done stuff on stage where you're dancing or acting out a scene. So I thought, "Why on earth am I talking to a camera? I don't even know what that is or how I'm meant to do that." So I was just me, which was what they were-
- 12:28 – 17:13
Imposter syndrome
- FCFearne Cotton
- SBSteven Bartlett
Imposter syndrome. You talked about it. You said, um, you said a sentence there. You said, "I felt like I shouldn't be here."
- FCFearne Cotton
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How, how... Was that the first sort of real dose of imposter syndrome that you had encountered in your life?
- FCFearne Cotton
Without a doubt, because I, I moved out of my safe little world of being in...... Eastcote, Ruislip, all these little suburban towns that I was living in or doing the theater school in. Where I had all my friends there, and it was safe, and they all had th- the same background as me, and, and nobody had been in that world. So I felt really safe. And then moving into this other world with stage school kids or then eventually being on a TV set with professional people from the world of TV who'd been doing it for years, I felt wildly out of place. But I don't think that's ever left me. I think I've always kept that feeling, like I don't really belong in it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things I'd noticed from reading about that part of your life is that you'd kind of, it seemed like you'd started to kind of overcompensate for that feeling of, um, imposter syndrome by working exceptionally hard. And it's funny, because, you know, uh, when you were describing your mother's work ethic there, it sounded somewhat similar, just that we've got to keep this steam engine running. We've got to keep shoveling the, the coal into the engine, or it's gonna, or it might stop. Right? And I think that's a- a- a guess an element of coming from suburbia into the, the limelight and somewhat not feeling like you're gonna be there is that, that fear that it might also be taken away at some point, right?
- FCFearne Cotton
Without a doubt. I mean-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FCFearne Cotton
... I don't think you lose the feeling of your, your upbringing. You might lose bits of it and work your own, you know, your own sort of thought processes into life. But I think it's always there, and I'll probably always have a kind of working class ethic, because that's what I was brought up with. So I have always overcompensated, and I think I still do. But I'm a little braver in not conforming to what is expected of me and having to do mainstream TV or having to do any mainstream broadcasting. I'm trying to do more of my own stuff where I feel I can experiment more, be truly authentic, and not have imposter syndrome, because I don't in my own space luckily. When I'm doing my podcast or I'm writing or we do a festival, whatever it might be, I do feel comfortable and safe but not in a way that dead-ends me. There's always room to improve, new things to learn, more people to listen to, which is a key part of what I do now. But I don't have that horrible feeling of, "I shouldn't be here on this fancy TV set with all of these people that belong here." I- I don't think I've ever lost that weirdly, and it maybe feels like a bit of a teenage hangover. But I- I've never felt comfortable in that space or like I truly belonged there really.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was the adverse consequence of not feeling like you belonged there throughout that period of your life?
- FCFearne Cotton
Not being myself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- FCFearne Cotton
Because I think, I mean, I, not, uh, you know, I wasn't sort of es- running from myself entirely. But I was certainly, uh, I felt for a long period of time too boring or too average to be in that position. I thought you had to be complicated or exceptionally something to be in that space, whereas I don't believe that anymore. I think everyone's got their own worth and their own beautiful spirit that is worth putting forward. But at that time, I thought, "How, how can I be here, this kid from the suburbs who what do I know? Why am I in front of the camera?" So I certainly, I guess, over-accentuated who I was or was a bit too smiley, a bit too enthusiastic, a bit too everything to, I get, I guess, uh, get people to like me. I wanted to be liked. That's the name of the game a lot of the time in that industry. If people like you, you have a job.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
If you're not liked, you don't have a job. So I wanted to be liked, and I wanted people to think I was interesting and that I had some worth and had something to say. I didn't believe I did, so I had to pretend that I had some worth there and, and make it look like I did. Whereas now with the work I do, I believe through my own life experiences, the people that I've learned from, the work that I've put in to be able to write the way I do and interview people the way that I do, I, I can see my own worth. I can feel my own worth. But for years, I didn't know what it was.
- 17:13 – 29:01
The consequences of acting
- FCFearne Cotton
- SBSteven Bartlett
You've had, don't know how long it was, but you know, at, at least probably a decade there of living ev- almost, you know, professionally every day, um, living out almost like a character or being someone for the, for the public, for the radio, for the TV. Um, a lot of people have that in their own lives in, in various ways. They might be doing something professionally, which isn't like truly in, in aligned with who they really are. Tell me about the consequence of that then of 10 years or, or more of playing a role and your life being, um, not authentic to who you actually are. What's the consequence of that?
- FCFearne Cotton
I think you start creating your own barriers. It's only you that, that, that's doing that, 'cause we've all got the freedom to be more authentic or to try new things or to just rock up to a situation fully as you. We can all do that. It's scary. But we can do it, and as you say, I know I didn't do it for years and years, probably way more than a decade. Certainly, you know, the first 10 years of my career, I didn't know what that meant. I just turned up and was as happy as I could be and enthusiastic and read the lines, tried not to slip up over my words and went home and felt chuffed. And then the next decade in my 20s, that's where I felt like, "Oh, I'm a bit boring. I need to kind of be a bit more exciting or whatever it is that people want me to be." And you stop yourself from moving into new areas, 'cause you just think, "This is what the public want or the boss wants. So I will be enthusiastic and," or if I was on the radio, "I will be happy and improve people's day by bringing music and happiness," whatever.Whereas now, I'm just me. So, if I'm not feeling great, I will turn up to a podcast, a radio show, or if I'm writing, as I am. I did a recording just before Christmas, the day after one of my cats had died, and I'd had my cat for 20 years. And, you know, you've got a pet-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... you know, it, they're part of your family, and I was deeply grieving. And I thought, "I'm not gonna cancel, because I think there's value in me turning up like this, but I'm not gonna pretend that I feel any different. So, I'm gonna answer with these emotions bubbling up, and I'm gonna be me."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
And I have much less care for people's response to that, or their reaction to it. I just think there's worth in all of it. If people don't wanna listen to that, they don't have to. That's, that's their choice. But I'm not gonna pretend anymore that I'm anything other than how I am on that day. But I've had to forge a new path to do that. I don't think I could be doing this in the old spaces that I worked in. There's not as much room for it. As, I'm not talking about that in a derogatory way, because I had a great period of learning from doing all that stuff. But the new path that I've forged, which isn't necessarily as mainstream, and isn't necessarily as shiny or celebrated or whatever, but I can be truly me, and there's room to move, and there's room to change, and it feels liberating, I guess. And I feel very lucky. You know, that's a l- a lucky space to have created.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, y- you were, in essence, living a very one-dimensional life through that period. And I've, you know, I speak to, I speak to Jake about this sometimes-
- FCFearne Cotton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... about how when you're on TV, you're there to do a very sort of one-dimensional job. I've learned from doing this podcast that it's, this podcast is like therapy for me, because I get to be multidimensional. I get to be my true self and honest. And also, the medium of podcasting as well allows for depth and context that five-minute little news clips on Good Morning Britain don't allow. And you t- you describe that as liberation. Um, I, I find that, like, incredibly, um, incredibly important. And it's, I was just thinking as you were saying it why, um, a few of the sort of TV presenters or radio presenters I've spoken to share that experience of their professional lives, uh, inadvertently making them one-dimensional. At some point in your life, you, um, you kind of, uh, r- not rebounded, but you, um, you pushed that life away, that kind of one-dimensional, sitting there, doing TV or radio. Can you tell me about the build-up to that moment and, and what it was that made you realize it was time to move on or move forward or, or to leave?
- FCFearne Cotton
It was so many things. Um, I guess there's only so much discomfort you can take. And it, and it's not due to the people I was working with or even the medium I was working in. I just didn't feel right in it. Some people are made for it, and they can do that job way better than I could. And, and they have a level of comfort there. I don't think I ever found that level of comfort. And I don't know why. Um, but also, I had stuff going on personally that meant at one point in my life, I felt really, really awful, really awful. I was in a period of depression. And I think when you're in that headspace, not much makes sense anymore, and you have to start questioning everything if you want to get out of it. Otherwise, you just get stuck. And I did get stuck for a long time, and I went on medication and did everything that one does to try and get your head above the water. But there has to, I think, be a moment of self-inventory where you look at everything in your life objectively, and you start to question everything. And I still have to face those fears every now and then, because at the moment, I'm promoting a new book, and I'm gonna have to go on live TV, and I'm gonna have to go on live radio. And it fills me with acute anxiety thinking about those things, because there are parts of that experience that feel very synonymous with not a great time in my life. So, I've had to make a lot of very difficult decisions, where there have been moments where I've been either offered lovely jobs or I've been doing lovely jobs, but I haven't been able to do them. I, it's not even been something that I've cognitively had to think about. It's like, "I cannot put myself in that position at the moment." I might be able to one day. But at the moment, where I'm at with my life and healing from stuff, and also I've got young kids, I don't want too much extra stress where I don't have to have it. But also, I, I, I don't wanna sit here professing like, "I made all these decisions. I left everything. I started a new life," because also, I haven't been offered many TV shows. It's not like people have been going, "Please come and do a big mainstream TV show." It's co-... My own feelings about that world have coincided with me not being offered very much, and at times, being sacked. I use the word "sacked." You never get officially sacked.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FCFearne Cotton
You just aren't on the show anymore, and then someone else is doing it. You're still sacked.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
So, you kind of get s- take- taken off a show for whatever reasons. They've changed up the format, whatever. And so, that kind of coincided with me not feeling like I was really enjoying a lot of, a lot of it. But I probably would've, still, my ego still wanted to be asked and to be doing the odd-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... bits and bobs on TV. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
That speaks to the law of attraction a little bit there, 'cause you know-
- FCFearne Cotton
It does. It does.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... from, from reading about what you've, uh, in your new book, uh, about what you say about the law of attraction. Um, because, you know, 13 years old, you were trying to pull that world into your life-
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and then at some point, you decided, probably inside before maybe vocally because of your ego, that you no longer were, were enjoying this, and then it started to...... fall away?
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah. I guess, it happens to all of us in many ways, whether it's about work or people you're, you know, that, that you have in your life, or whatever it might be, that you do, hopefully, start to act less from your ego and more from a very deep, you know, sort of gut feeling place. And that's a good thing, um, but it means that there are gonna be changes and the people around you will react in certain ways to those changes. And you might feel slightly wobbly about those changes at first, because, you know, when I sort of decided that I wanted to leave Radio 1, I'd had a great time at Radio 1. I'd had some bad times personally whilst I was there, but the opportunity in itself was a gift. I was very lucky to have had that job and to have interviewed all these brilliant musicians. No, no matter what level I was interviewing them at, it was a privilege to, to do that. Um, but when I decided that I needed a new chapter and I needed something new and a new challenge, I don't think I had a single person say to me, "That's a great idea." You know, everybody was sort of going, "Why are you leaving? You have a brilliant job on a brilliant radio station interviewing all these amazing people." So I think you can make those decisions. They won't often be backed up by everyone around you. But if you know it's right, that little voice will only get louder and louder. And I'd had that for, like, probably six months before I decided, "Okay, I've really gotta do this now." That voice was just again and again saying, "Try something, you know, try something else. Do something new, you know, give yourself a new challenge." But you've got to... I guess, you just have to jump into the void, because you're not gonna have everyone go, "Great idea, I'm here to support you. Let's go." There is a moment where, when you are acting from an authentic place, that you just have to jump-
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was-
- FCFearne Cotton
... and hope for the best. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that voice saying? When, in the lead up to you leaving Radio 1, what was that voice saying every day as you came into work, you sat there for three hours? How did you feel? What was, what was going on in your mind?
- FCFearne Cotton
Uh, y- you know what, although I had that authentic voice and that sort of niggling feeling that I needed to do something different, there was also a voice going, like, "Who do you think you are, leaving a job like that?" I still had that voice going on. "Who the hell do you think you are, leaving that job? What are you gonna do next? Good luck." I had that going on. So I had these two voices, one saying, "Try something new, you know, there's, there's another chapter to be had." I, I, I found the pressure of being live every day all-encompassing at times and the anxiety of that was tough. And I also didn't love having routine that was the same every day, 'cause you do have a very structured day when you've got a live show every day. And part of me felt a bit like, "Oh, I'm still feeling like I'm at bit at school with that kind of structure."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
But as I said, this other voice was going, "What are you doing? You're an idiot. You're a full... You'll never, you're out of that whole world of music where you get to go to the Brit Awards and you're respected in the world of music." 'Cause when you leave, you're not. It's quite instant.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 29:01 – 36:57
Depression and panic attacks
- FCFearne Cotton
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I... Again, reading through your story and y- you talked about, um, experiencing depression there for the first time. I, growing up, when I first read this word depression, I thought, "Okay, that must be something that happens to other people." Right? That's not... I don't... And as I've, as I got older and started speaking to a lot of psychologists and people like Johann Hari, who wrote Lost, the book Lost Connections, um, I, my view on these mental health disorders and various sort of mental health conditions started to develop and evolve to realize that we're really all, every single person listening to this now, is, um, capable of experiencing one of these disorders. It's actually part of being human. These are, in the view of many, but not always, I don't think anything is exclusive to anything, but, um, is a symptom of the way we, we, we live our lives sometimes. Right? Is that accurate in, in, from your experience, in terms of it being a symptom of something?
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah. Um, I never go into too much detail about the circumstance, but-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- FCFearne Cotton
... I was dealing with some heavy shit (laughs) -
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FCFearne Cotton
... and things that I didn't want to deal with.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- FCFearne Cotton
And I didn't know how to cope. And I think prior to me having that quite lengthy period of dep- dep- of depression, I, I don't know how long, 'cause it's quite blurry. A year? Two years? It could've incrementally been five? I don't know. There was a, a real intense period where it was very, very bad, where I was on medication and I didn't really want to leave the house. Then it incrementally got a little easier and then there were bad patches again. So it's a little bit blurry around the edges. But much like you, growing up, I don't think I even heard the word growing up. It certainly wasn't something I heard in the '80s or '90s.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
I wasn't exposed to it. Yet my mum has dealt with depression, and I probably sort of knew that growing up but didn't know there was... I just thought, "That's my mum." I didn't think there was a label for it or there was, it was a thing. But when I was wr- writing my first book, Happy, I said to my mum, "Would you write a piece for it about depression?" I'd never said that word out loud to her in, in context of her own experience. And she literally sent back this thing within about 10 minutes, because it was all there-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- FCFearne Cotton
... ready to go. But we'd never had that...... chat properly. So, although I didn't know the terminology, there was a feeling of it, and I understood it. And my mum's mum, my nan, Sylvia, she had nervous breakdowns, uh, when my mum was younger, and I'd heard a little bit about that. So I knew it was sort of there and in the family. So, you know, how much of it is hereditary? How much of it is circumstantial? I don't know. A- and I think a lot of mine was circumstantial. And then, understanding that has led me to look at lots of different ways to, you know, eradicate awful memories, move on from the past, eradicating ugly emotions like shame, and learning to like myself.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
I think that's been one of the big, sort of, movements in my own healing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you talk very openly as well about, um, panic attacks. Again, something I was none the wiser to until I- you know, it's funny 'cause I look back at when I started to learn about people's panic attack experiences, I look back and think, "I think I had one."
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I remember a day where I was, I had a very s- strange physiological reaction in my body and started feeling really overwhelmed, and like I had all this energy building up, but I couldn't quite understand what was going on with me. And, and when I started reading a little bit about your experiences with panic attacks, you know, when you were on that motorway that day for the first time, um, it kind of rang true to the experience I had. Talk to me about your, what... the first panic attack you had, wh- you know, what you learnt from that experience, and, and, uh, the journey you've gone on with that, um, with anxiety and panic attacks.
- FCFearne Cotton
Well, I didn't know it was a panic attack. Like, when I had that experience on the motorway, I was with my friend, Claire, and we were driving home from somewhere we'd been. It was probably a two-hour journey. And all of a sudden, I went really hot, and I was quite... I didn't say anything to Claire. I was like, "What the fuck is going on?" Took my coat off, wound the windows down. She was like, "Do you mind shutting the windows? It's freezing."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FCFearne Cotton
I was like, "I'm just feeling a bit weird," and then I started to feel like I was sort of leaving my body, which is my experience of panic attacks, and I pulled over, and it's even weird talking about it 'cause I can draw that f- I can feel it. It's under the surface. I haven't had one for a while, but I... that feeling is so familiar to me now. This was probably five years ago. My heart was racing. I had no idea what was going on. So I went and saw a doctor, and was like, "There's something wrong with my heart. You need to check out my heart (laughs) and see what's going on with me because I've had this strange experience." Did all the tests, done all that. "There's nothing wrong with you. You're fit and healthy, thank the Lord. Brilliant." Next, you know, the next week, I'm faced with some quite nerve-wracking TV prospects, being on live TV. At this point, I hadn't quite realized I had an anxiety around it. I was just plowing through it. On the way in, I was, like, f- getting that same awful feeling of, "I'm leaving my body." I had it in the makeup chair. I had it before I went on air. I had it during the time I was on air. It felt torturous. Like, "I don't wanna have this. Why can't I just go back to what I used to do?" I used to go on TV and be, like, so relaxed, or I'd be on radio, like, online shopping. I was so chilled out. And then, all of a sudden, this thing. It felt like something had, like, infiltrated my neural pathways. Like, "Why is this happening?" And that's where I started talking to lots of different people, and, you know, again, I thought panic attacks happened to other people. I was like, "Well, I've never had that. I don't feel panicked. I feel like I'm leaving my skin." That's a panic attack to some people. There are different manifestations of it, obviously. I think if you put me in the situation of having to do one of those triggering jobs, I would most definitely still have one, which is why I don't really put myself in that situation anymore. Again, I don't think it'll always be the case. I'm sure I could do more therapy, more everything, and get to a place of comfort, but I can't be bothered at the moment. I can't be bothered to go- put myself in a position where I don't feel safe. I'd rather forge new pathways work-wise and feel safe, and I'm very fortunate that I have the propensity to do that. I haven't always, but I do at the moment-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... so I'm going with it. Um, all of my panic attacks are around work. I don't really have them around social settings. I don't really have them around any physical activity. It's around work, judgment of others, et cetera. So, I just have to, at the moment, not put myself in that position. (page turns)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one. At this time of year, we always see a huge spike in the amount of people that are buying Huel and joining the Hueligan camp, I guess. Um, and I think that speaks to the role that Huel plays in my life, but also the role it plays to a lot of people's lives, which is, as we start to get a little bit busier, typically, we fall into the trap of going for convenience food. And convenience food, for a lot of us, means, like, junk food or lots of sugary stuff, whereas Huel kind of safeguards us in that part of our lives. It's completely nutritionally complete, as you'll know from listening to this podcast, and I say it every single time. I've had more tags on Instagram of people joining Huel in the last, I'd say, couple of weeks of January than I have in the whole last quarter of the year. So, if there was a time where you're thinking about giving it a shot, here's my recommendation. Try the salted caramel flavor. That's my personal favorite. We all have different preferences. The banana flavor, I absolutely adore. I love the cinnamon swirl flavor and also the protein powder. The salted caramel flavor, again, that sits on top of my fridge over there, is, um, incredibly useful if you are working out and you're trying to get high levels of protein into your body. Give it a go. Tag me on Instagram. Let me know what you think, and come and become a Hueligan with
- 36:57 – 43:58
Making the decision to leave Radio One
- SBSteven Bartlett
me. (page turns) You said when you left Radio 1, it was a, a bumpy road.
- FCFearne Cotton
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Now, you know, everybody in their life at some point will have to make a big decision to leave a position of certainty, which might be certain misery, in the pursuit of uns- something a bit more uncertain and unclear. Where there, there isn't a promise or a blueprint, uh, of how to achieve the thing they wanted to get to that happier place, no pun intended.
- FCFearne Cotton
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, so, so tell me about that bumpy road. So y- you leave. You make the decision, "I'm leaving Radio 1." What was the, the bumpy road?
- FCFearne Cotton
First of all, I think all change requires a bumpy road. I don't think any change for a human is, like, smooth and great. Even if, like you say, you've left something that you don't like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... to follow your heart. That's a brilliant thing to do, but I don't...... think there are many people that would say that was a smooth transition. So I left radio. Um, I had my second kid. Well, second slash fourth, 'cause I've got two step-kids. (sniffs) I had the fourth in our family, little Honey, and I didn't really have much work going on. And I didn't really know... I was still doing Celebrity Juice at the time, which was a lot of fun. Um, and then I started talking to my publisher about writing something that felt a bit more honest. And we hadn't had a conversation about anything at this point to do with my own experience or life. I don't think I'd told... I'd probably told three or four people that I had experienced depression and that I wasn't feeling great. I still probably wasn't feeling that great at that point. There was big highs and lows. And luckily, my publisher was really up for me just sort of seeing what, you know, came out of me, if I started writing. So I wrote the book Happy, which was my first go at writing about anything true and real to me, or even talking about it. I hadn't ever done an interview that felt particularly, like, properly raw. And luckily, lots of people liked that book, which made me think, "Oh, maybe I could do that a bit more and less of the being the other person that's on the telly."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
So very, very slowly, this sort of snowball effect happ-... Well, I wrote two other books, Calm and Quiet, and then podcasts were kind of becoming a bit of a thing. And there was... You know, me and my manager had talked about, "Shall I do a podcast?" And everyone was going, "What's a podcast?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FCFearne Cotton
And we were like, "Well, should we just try it anyway? It's just sort of chatting." So I started interviewing my friends to start off with, or, like, just ringing people, "Please come on this podcast." I remember emailing Dawn French like, "Will you come on my podcast?" She went, "I dunno what that is, but if you come to my house, yes." So I went to her house in Cornwall. She was one of my first guests. We were very lucky that, that we were able to make that happen. And, um, and, you know, Happy Place sort of started... We started the ball rolling with it, and other things started happening. But again, it wasn't a sort of a smooth ascent or trajectory to where we're at now. There have been loads of moments where probably more just mentally and internally I've felt like, "Am I getting this right? Is this going somewhere? Have I actually got anything to say?" You know, "I- is my, is my platform helping people and doing something with positive impact?" It's probably been more cognitive than, like, real problems happening. Now, of course there have been problems and things going wrong, but the bigger problems have been in my head-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... and me worrying about stuff and feeling like I'm a failure or, like, I've made a big mistake or that there's something wrong with me. Nobody wants me on the TV. I'm flawed. I'm too weird or I'm too outspoken. I don't know what it is. I'm, I just don't fit into that anymore. And I've had to let go of worrying about that, because it doesn't really impact me so much anymore. I don't have to be on the TV to do all the other stuff that I'm doing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
But there was a big mental hangover of, "There must be something wrong with me because people don't want me on their screens, and all the bosses don't want me on their screens anymore." So I've had to let go of a lot of old thought patterns that do not serve me so I can really forge ahead clearly, like, with proper clarity and with all of my energy to do something that's different that's over here that I really wanna do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And is that an ongoing practice or battle?
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah, I think it's an ongoing discipline-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Discipline.
- FCFearne Cotton
... which sounds really boring, but I think a lot of this stuff is. It can still be fun, but I think you have to stay dedicated to being nice to yourself and not letting these mental patterns stop your creativity or stop you trying new things or stop you putting yourself out there. So yeah, I guess it is a daily thing. And also it's undulating, 'cause some days I feel like, "Yes, I've got so much excitement for this podcast that I'm doing coming up," or, "I can't wait to write this new book." And then other times, I don't feel like that. I wake up feeling like, "Oh my God," you know, I'll go into the compare and despair thing of, "Everyone else is doing things slicker, better. Look at Stephen and all his cool cameras."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FCFearne Cotton
"And look at all these lights, and I don't have this." And you get into all of that mindset. So I, it, I undulate. Some days I feel great and I feel really grounded in what I'm meant to be doing, and other days I feel like I'm flying all over the shop and I don't know what the hell I'm doing. And that's okay, and I think it's important to talk about that so people don't look at, you know, people in the public eye or people-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... who are doing things well and think, "Oh, they know what they're doing. They feel great all the time." I don't know. Do you feel like that, "I don't feel great all the time"?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Great all the time? No?
- FCFearne Cotton
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I see. So w- with, with that, with that, that discipline, do you think the objective is just, just to get to a better place and not really to, like, overcome the limiting belief? It's just to get to a better place. Is that the objective for you?
- FCFearne Cotton
I think the objective has to be always just to like myself-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... because then the rest sorts itself out. It doesn't matter where you're going, what you're doing, how you're trying to do it. If you like yourself-
- 43:58 – 55:55
Learning to have self compassion
- FCFearne Cotton
- SBSteven Bartlett
Which brings us, I think, nicely onto your brand new book, Bigger Than Us, um, which is about the power of finding meaning in a messy world. And you're talking there about liking yourself. Part one of that book talks a lot about... I just want to say before we get into the book that it- it really is just a really remarkable read. You're a very, very good writer. And I- I- I picked up the book, and I thought, "Maybe I'll skim whatever-"
- FCFearne Cotton
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... from the- from the (laughs) -"
- FCFearne Cotton
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... from the- " Yeah, 'cause time is money. From the book-
- FCFearne Cotton
I hear you. (laughs) A quick skim read through chapter one, maybe the end chapter-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FCFearne Cotton
... and we can- we can be done with that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Try and find the quote. No.
- FCFearne Cotton
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I... And I- and I- I opened it, and I just found myself sucked into it. And I said to you- this to you before we started recording, because you're so descriptive in the way you write, that I felt like I was... it wasn't a book, it was more of, like, a movie. I was inside the- the scenario. So, you start in- in part one of the book talking about this sort of self-compassion experiment. So tell me about what this self-compassion experiment is, and- and what it- what it taught you, and how it helped you with those limiting beliefs.
- FCFearne Cotton
Well, first of all, thank you, because I've had not so much feedback on the book, because it's not out yet, so it truly-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... really means a lot, that- that you've-
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's out right now.
- FCFearne Cotton
... said that to me. Oh yeah, 'cause w- this is wi- this is ahead of time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FCFearne Cotton
It's out now, everyone. It's out.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(clapping)
- FCFearne Cotton
But at the time of the recording-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FCFearne Cotton
... I haven't had as much feedback, only from, luckily, my publishers who really like it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
But I'm... It really means a lot that- that you got that from the book.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
So I'm- I'm super grateful. Um, but self-compassion? I didn't really know where this book would take me. I knew the subjects I wanted to cover. I didn't know what the themes would be at the start. That kind of appeared later down the line as the book kind of formed. But the first section did very much, um, end up... s- sort of seeped in the theme of self-compassion.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
And I guess the starting point was talking to Wendy, who is a shaman that I know, Wendy Mandy, and she's lived with s- many indigenous tribes and, uh, shamanic people the world over. I won't say how old she is, but she's done this for decades and decades. And every message seemed to go back to self-compassion. And I've always known it's important, but I've certainly not practiced it, 'cause you do have to practice it, and I've certainly not nailed it. I've allowed myself to get back into these loops of, like, this acerbic voice that says I'm a piece of shit, et cetera. So I was like, "If Wendy's saying this again and again and again, and then so is the next person I interview, and the next person I interview, then I've got to focus on this." And it is a matter of focus. You can focus on all the things you don't like about yourself, or you can choose to, you know, accept and acknowledge that there are some things you're not as good at, and mistakes you've made. Th- everyone has. We are human. We are fallible humans. But you can focus on the stuff that you really like about yourself, and that you really want to celebrate about yourself, and that you know... and that you notice the gifts that you have, 'cause we've all got that. Every single person has got something to give. So it's a matter of putting your focus and attention here, or putting it over here. So, that was what I learned writing that chapter, was, "I need to focus more on this stuff, and not keep worrying so much, 'Should I have said this? Have I upset that person? Is it awful that 10 years ago I did this thing that I really regret?'" You know, we've all done that. T- there's no single person, even the shiny movie stars we see at the cinema, or people we see on Instagram with 20 million followers, they have all made mistakes. They all have ugly bits of themselves they don't like. Silly things they've done, awful things they've said, slip-ups they've made. You know, they've done things not from a benevolent place. We've all done it. But we can choose to not live in that area the whole time, and, like, focus on it and drown in it, and we can look at the stuff that we do want to celebrate about ourselves with acceptance. You haven't got to ignore and shun the shadow side, 'cause we've all got that, but have an acceptance of it alongside celebrating the good stuff, I think is really what I learned from writing that- that chapter.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And in practical terms, how do you celebrate? How do you celebrate the good stuff and try not to let the mind wander away when you wake up in the morning, and you start immediately thinking about, "Oh my God, my- my hair is this, my nails are that, why haven't I done this, I'm a bad mum," et cetera, as you write about in the book? How- how do you... what's the practical kind of, like, discipline that you've engaged in to be more self-compassionate?
- 55:55 – 1:06:56
We aren’t our thoughts
- FCFearne Cotton
frankly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Solitude, tranquility, and being a hermit.
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In the, in the first part of your, your book is where you talk about your relationship with meditation-
- FCFearne Cotton
(clears throat)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and what it's taught you. One of the really interesting sort of conclusive points you make there is that it taught you that our thoughts ... w- we aren't our thoughts. And I think we all ... Obviously, we all go through life thinking we are our thoughts because that is the voice in my head, it's- it's the control center. So, if it says to you, "You're a piece of shit," I'm gonna go, "Okay, we're a piece of shit."
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, talk to me about that disassociation you've- you've- you've learnt with your thoughts. And was that a moment in your life that- that (snaps fingers) the penny dropped or-
- FCFearne Cotton
(clears throat) I think ... I've- I've had a lot of people say it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
I've had a lot of people say, "You are not your thoughts," so I've gone, "Oh, that's kitsch. I like that. That's cool."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FCFearne Cotton
But I've never really applied it. And then I think, again, writing this book and talking to Jambo specifically in the book about this subject, and he had a really brilliant and sort of a more fun way of describing that voice in our head, especially when we go into meditation. And I'm not a daily meditator. I do a lot of walking meditation rather than seat, which is actually, luckily, a sort of lovely Buddhist concept. Not that I'm Buddhist or aligned to any religion, but it's very much done by Buddhist monks. There's seated meditation and, and walking meditation, and- and I can deal with walking meditation a lot better. I can go out into nature with no phone, nothing, and just walk and look around me. And I enjoy that more than sitting. And there's, you know ... That's a great introduction for me to get into it. But Jambo talks about this moment where you sit down and you try and have this peaceful moment, and then you've got the voices, they start. They might be really mean, and it might be, like you said, "You're a piece of shit," or it might just be, "Oh, my God, I haven't emailed back. This person ..." Or just silly lists of things we haven't done. And he likens it to you're li- you're listening to your ego. You're actually sat there without any distraction of a phone, a laptop, noise, being around people, and you're listening to it, and you have to sort of go to your ego, "Come here, babe. What's going on? Get ... Come here. Stop. It's fine. You don't need to waffle on about ... I know this story. You've told me this before." And you- you listen to it because we don't in the day. We- we're trying to sh- distract ourselves from that voice. "Oh, my God, I'm- I'm just gonna eat some biscuits 'cause I can't deal with all that crap in my head right now. I'm gonna ... Or I'm gonna work. I'm gonna work until I am exhausted, or I'm gonna just scroll on social media." We'll do anything to not listen to that. And there's nothing wrong with that egoic voice. We've all got it. When ... The ... I don't think the key or the aim is to banish it from our minds and go, "This voice can't exist. I must be egoless," 'cause unless you're living on a mountaintop in scarlet robes as an amazing enlightened being, it's highly unlikely in the modern world we're gonna have that experience, so we listen to it. And you can have all the thoughts and the chatter going, but you don't have to believe it, and you don't have to act on it. You just simply listen to it, and then you- and then you might afterwards, after your meditation, you might go for a walk, or you might even ... Like, another thing I learned in the book, do some non-religious praying, where you go, "Right, I just noticed that my ego kept saying I'm a piece of shit because this happened, and the voice in my head, this ego, kept saying that I am not worthy of whatever it is." So, whoever you decide to pray to, whatever it is, it doesn't have to be a god or a being, it can just be a prayer sent outwards. "Please help me with this awful thought process that I have. I don't want it anymore. I want to notice and recognize my own worth and love." So, it's quite a nice combination that I learned about in the book, meditating followed by- by a non-religious, or if you are religious-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... a religious prayer, beautiful. But it's quite a powerful kind of listening and, and then asking-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... sort of balance.
- SBSteven Bartlett
On that listening and asking, in the second chapter of your book, you- you talk about how just like one thought for your life had really r- this one unhelpful thought that underlied pretty much everything in your life had, um, caused irregular moods, it caused you to turn down work, it caused you to think not so well of yourself, and as you describe it in the book, feeling like your rib cage was outside of your hea- your body for 10 years. And this underlying thought you had, which you've talked about there, is that you didn't deserve better. Um, we all have this, right? We all have this- these underlying self-opinions, I'll call them, of ourself that are inadvertently and sometimes usually unconsciously, like, running the show of our lives.
- FCFearne Cotton
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If I was to ask you how does one find out what these self-opinions are, um, so that we can be liberated from them, how do I do that? (laughs)
- FCFearne Cotton
I think you get quiet, because the more we distract ourselves, the less we know about ourselves, and we're just living via other people's projections of us. So, we become what your work colleagues think of you, you become what your parents think of you, you become what your kids have said to you. You become the projection. The only way you will really understand who you are and hear that voice is by getting quiet. And that's not a one-off thing, like, "Oh, I'm just gonna get quiet today and see what happens." It might be through journaling, through writing. You know, I've just reread The Artist's Way. You do your pages every morning. You just write what comes to mind. You're getting to know yourself. "God, I think this. I didn't even know I was thinking that." You know, it just spills out of you. If you don't like writing, you could speak it into your memos of your phone or a Dictaphone, if anyone owns one of those still. Um, or you could just go walking and listen to that internal voice. And, no, there's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't matter that that internal voice keeps saying something quite negative. You've just gotta hear it and know it, and then understand that it is not true.Like, that is a given for anyone. Whatever that awful thing is, that, that, that sort of cycle of thoughts in your head, "I'm a piece of shit. I'm not worthy. I'm underserving. I'm a bad parent. I'm a bad partner. I'm a bad friend," they are all lies. Like, all of it. We've all made mistakes. We've covered this. We've all made mistakes. We've all done things wrong. We will continue to do so for the rest of our lives. But that doesn't mean any of that stuff's true. We're just getting up in the morning and trying. We- we are all just getting up and trying. So, all of that stuff in your head is other people's projections. It's not true. And that is sometimes hard to swallow, 'cause people think, "No, it is true. I've lived my whole life knowing that I'm a bad..." whatever it is. And that almost keeps you ... and I've had this personally, it keeps you safe and comfortable in that, because you don't try new things-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... and you don't push yourself, and you don't put yourself out there because, "Well, I can't. I'm bad at that. I'm an idiot. I'm not worthy of greatness, abundance," whatever it is. So you keep yourself small and, and you build walls around yourself. It's much scarier to rally against that negative thought and to have to try new things-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... to try again, that's even harder, to try something you failed at or supposedly failed at. But if you, if you understand that those thoughts aren't true, you give yourself the space and freedom to try new stuff or to get into a relationship again, or to have a best friend again if you got hurt, whatever it is. It's scary to do that stuff. I've certainly been trapped in walls like that before and believed that negative voice, 'cause it's been quite comfortable, weirdly. But if you let them go and you decide to scare yourself a bit, there, there's all sorts of things you could be doing and trying. There's an expanse of stuff you could learn or experience in life. So, I'm by no means at a place where I'm like nailing all this stuff, but I've learned even more by writing this book, and I'm even more willing to give new stuff a try and to not listen to this voice that is yabbering on in my head the whole time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You are like quite, quite obviously testament to the power of journaling and writing and, um, putting your thoughts and feelings out into the world. Because, because you've done that, you've written so many books, you've recorded so many podcast episodes. It's quite apparent to me that the self-awareness you exude is a, is a consequence of that. And for me, one of the really unintended but really, um, fortunate consequences of starting a podcast was you had to look at your thoughts a lot. And the Diary of a CEO started with me in my bedroom, open up my diary at the end of the week and read out what it says. And that meant that I had to record a diary. And so I'd, I'd finish these podcasts after week one, two, three and four and I'd go, "Oh my God." I'm like h- my, my self-awareness is becoming heightened. I'm understanding things about my childhood that I never knew before. You know, we often think therapy is sit in a room, speak to somebody else. But therapy for me was writing in my diary and looking down on the page, right? And so I just think that ... I wanted to just highlight that, 'cause I just think it's the most important, understated, easy, dare I say, thing that someone can do, is just to like look at their thoughts on a regular basis. Podcasting forces you to.
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, even like making quotes on Instagram, again, forces you to look back at your experiences and d- not just let them pass you by without the value extracted. So, I just wanted to dwell on that for a second, um, because I think everyone should do it. And I say this a lot, I say everyone should like keep a diary and just like write every, every week.
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah. It's so therapeutic to do that. So therapeutic. I mean, I've written a diary since I was a tiny kid.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wow.
- 1:06:56 – 1:14:47
Women talking about their success
- FCFearne Cotton
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, you've, you've sat and interviewed so many amazing people. Um, and I got to speak to a couple of, you know, really great people as well. And I started to notice some like gender differences, um, in success, ambition, in, um, how certain people were much more comfortable speaking about their goals, their finances, their targets, their ambitions than other people. What have you noticed in this arena?
- FCFearne Cotton
Oh, yeah. I know what you're hinting to be-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- FCFearne Cotton
... Steven. It's hard as a woman, and I can only speak from experience, a working mum-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
... to talk about certain things in a certain way.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
Ambition being one. 'Cause for a man to say, you know, "I've, I've got great ambitions," it's re- it's been historically celebrated. I'm not saying anything out of turn-
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, you're right.
- FCFearne Cotton
... it's very obvious.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're also right.
- FCFearne Cotton
For women, that's quite a new thing. Obviously there have been mavericks and amazing women over the years who have had huge ambition, been game-changing in history. They're probably less celebrated in history, but they've been there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FCFearne Cotton
But I do think it's still seen as-... a different choice for women to say, "I'm, I'm r- I'm very ambitious." I am ambitious, highly ambitious. Um, I'm also a mum, and I'm a nurturing mum who wants to bring her kids up well, for them to feel loved and supported and safe. And it's hard to do both well.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FCFearne Cotton
I, I try, but I've had to let my social life totally slide off the face of the earth to do two things really well. Or, I'm not saying, like, my standards are better than anyone else's. For me, for me to feel like I'm doing them well, that I can cope with the level of work and that I can cope with what's going on with my kids at home, it's really bloody hard. Whereas I look at a lot of men in that situation who have kids, and they don't have to worry so much about being vocal about the nurturing side of it. If they're off doing a job overseas or whatever it is, there's no judgment. Whereas for a woman to go away and, if they were working abroad or if it's a female musician going on tour, the, the judgment around how, what, what their kids would be doing and who's looking after them, et cetera, is huge-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FCFearne Cotton
... and commented on. I've had people, I had someone ... This is an example. Someone said to me on Instagram a year or so ago, and again, no judgment to this person. This is just a story. But I had posted me doing a yoga workout or, I don't know, some sort of workout. And they said, "I feel deeply," I don't know what it was, "upset that you've posted this. For all mums out there that don't have the time to do a yoga workout or a workout, this is really difficult for me to see."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FCFearne Cotton
And I, and I just said to her, "Would you say the same to Joe Wicks? 'Cause he doesn't work out every day, and I don't think anyone's going, 'Who's got Joe ... Where's your kids? Who's got your kids? You got two young kids. Where are your kids?'" 'Cause they've automatically, without thought, gone, "Oh, his wife's got the kids, so he can go to the gym and do a workout." I work more than my husband. So yeah, I'm gonna say to him, "I'm gonna take 20 minutes out to go for a walk or to do yoga, or can you do the school run so I can do it?" Like, it's, it, but it's, it's a subconscious thing. We're ... People aren't sort of having these thoughts and going, "Oh, this isn't fair. I need to bring this up." This is subconscious, historic, you know, problematic territory that we're in. And, you know, my parents' generation were probably the first generation to be juggling en masse work and kids. So, this is very new for women.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FCFearne Cotton
Before that, like, my nan's, they were sort of almost, I think, told by my grandad, "No, you're not working. You've got to bring up the kids. We're at work."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FCFearne Cotton
And they did it. So, this is new. We're still figuring it out, and it's still really hard, and it's still really painful. And there's so much judgment. I don't know what I'm meant to do about it. But, you know, keep trying and encourage the younger generation of women growing up now, my daughter and step-daughter, to move through it with more ease.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Um, it's actually something I noticed from doing this podcast, was just there was this, this clear distinct difference between ... Do you know what it was really? It was when I'd invite a very, very successful woman onto this podcast to talk about her success, there was this kind of timidness. And especially when they, if they were also a mother, there was this real timidness that I just didn't see in the, in the, the men. They would be very out there, "Here's how much I'm making. It's 17.3 million."
- FCFearne Cotton
(laughs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, and, and I would say ... And do you know what? I'd have, I'd become friends with the person and speak to them, um, after the podcast for many, many months and whatever. And they'd highlight that to me and say, "It's different for you, Steve. I could sit here now and say how much money I'm making, how hard I'm working, all of these things. I could also post it on my Instagram, and I swear to God, everyone would just clap."
- FCFearne Cotton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But I know that Chrissie Chella, who is in a similar position, really successful-
- 1:14:47 – 1:27:56
What brings you meaning in your life
- FCFearne Cotton
- SBSteven Bartlett
Bigger Than Us. The book is, um, largely centered on this idea of meaning, right? That's the, that's the kind of overarching purpose for writing the book. It's trying to find meaning in, in, in a messy world. And at the end of the book, in part four, you start to conclude that, you know, the real, um, meaning in life is connection in its various forms. So, I guess my question for you is, what is it that, um, for you now is bringing meaning in your life? What does meaning mean to you in your life now and, uh, yeah, where, where do you find it?
- FCFearne Cotton
I find it in really simple places, like going for a walk, and I ... That sounds a bit too sort of casual and flippant, but I do. I go, I try and go for a walk every day, and I went for a walk this morning, super early. It was, sun was still rising. It was pissing with rain.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FCFearne Cotton
It was bloody horrible. But when I'm out, I might be listening to music. I might go without my phone and just walk. This could sound very cheesy, but I'm often brought to tears because I, uh, I extract myself from the, "Oh my God, my kids are late for school," or, "I haven't done this email," or, "How am I doing with this?" Or, "What's failing with that?" Or I just let it all go. And I'm lucky to live near a very green space so I can walk around and look at trees and see there's green parrots in the park and whatever else is going on in nature and be humbled by it, because it's humbling when you really notice it. Or at night, look at the sky. If you're lucky to live in an area where there are ... there isn't too much light pollution and see one star that might not even be there anymore because ... We can't talk about physics. It's gonna-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- FCFearne Cotton
... blow my head off, but you know what I mean.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- FCFearne Cotton
Look at the greatness of what is going on around us rather than at your phone or the smallness of, "Oh my God, my house is a shit hole. Everything's messy," and look outside of that. Like, I have to do that every day so I don't get bogged down with, "Am I doing this right? Where do I fit into society? How successful am I?" All of this greatness and how short life is, how short life is, and that in 200 years, none of us are gonna be here. That's humbling. It's not bleak. That is humbling to get up every day and think there's a whole new load of generation, like people and things that will be happening and systems in place and technology or whatever it might be that I won't be around for. So I have to get up and be grateful and do all that stuff I want to do today, not next year when I'm braver, in 20 years when I'm older and quirkier and more eccentric. I've got to do it now. So, I have to find that meaning connection. This is bespoke. It'll be different for everyone. But for looking at the bigger everything, noticing that I'm on a floating ball in space, noticing that all of this is changing always, and that there are trees thousands of years old, and I'm just 40, and what do I fucking know? I have to get myself out of this small structure that we've created on a societal level and look at the hugeness of all of it. And remember, when you look at that hugeness, that we know fuck all, because we don't even ... We can't even get our heads around the fact. Like, what is infinity? What, how ... No, I can't even go there. We don't know anything. We know nothing. And we have to keep coming back to that. As soon as we start going, "Yeah, I, I know everything about this and that," you don't ... I know more than you. Small, small lives. Small. I want big, expansive, I don't know anything.
Episode duration: 1:34:37
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