The Diary of a CEOFrank Lampard Finally Speaks Out About What REALLY Happened At Chelsea | E264
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,001 words- 0:00 – 2:34
Intro
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you get that call, had you known the context, the behind the scenes, the unhealthy culture, honestly, do you think you would've made a different decision?
- FLFrank Lampard
I think, I, I think I can say this.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Frank Lampard!
- FLFrank Lampard
Lampard! Lampard has found the net.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Premier League icon, Chelsea legend. (crowd cheering) I read that your dad was the biggest influence on your career, and then I read a separate quote saying sometimes I hated him.
- FLFrank Lampard
You know, my dad was a tough man. Pushed me very hard on the football front, and it got probably a bit too much. The fear of failure was a huge driving force, but made me what I was and gave me the career I got in the end.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Chelsea fans will be listening to this because they want to get your opinion on what's just happened, 'cause since you've left, we've not really heard from you.
- FLFrank Lampard
I came back here because this was an opportunity to come to Chelsea, a club close to my heart. But I could see in training, the level wasn't enough. The size of the squad with players that will test you and question you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Questioning you?
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then Chelsea spends more money than anyone's ever spent in a window. It seemed like chaos.
- FLFrank Lampard
Could see that the players were ready for the season to finish.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But low standards are a symptom of something further upstream-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that's happened.
- FLFrank Lampard
You know, we didn't get the results we wanted, and I know a lot of the reasons why.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like what?
- FLFrank Lampard
So...
- SBSteven Bartlett
One moment occurred in your life that really tested you at a much deeper level, the passing of your mother, and while you were playing at the very, very highest level.
- FLFrank Lampard
I was a mummy's boy. I lost the closest person to me, you know, everything to me. The emotional support. Ugh, I wanna say something more, you know, and I couldn't.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What would you want to say? Frank is a legend. There's absolutely no denying that. But so much has happened in recent times in his life as a manager that unanswered questions remain, and I wanted to have a conversation with Frank, an honest, open conversation, to see if we could get to the bottom of some of those unanswered questions. What was happening behind the scenes? How did it actually feel for Frank? Is anyone to blame? What does Frank want to do next? And how and what caused Frank to be the man that he is? And that's maybe the most fascinating question of all, because there's some things that Frank has just never talked about before, but he's made the decision to talk about them today. And if you have unanswered questions, I don't think you will at the end of this episode. (instrumental music plays)
- 2:34 – 6:36
How are you doing?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Frank, how are you doing?
- FLFrank Lampard
Really well, thank you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's always a, there's always a short and a long answer to that, isn't there? (laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
(laughs) I was waiting for your second drink for that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. What's the, what's the long version of, of that?
- FLFrank Lampard
No, I'm doing really well. I'm, um, I'm currently, uh, on a break, I suppose, from working, which is a pleasure in ways, because I, obviously, the work of a, of a manager, uh, I was going to say Premier League manager, but any manager in football, is intense. Um, so at the moment, I'm on a, a break. It's sort of holiday time for me a little bit, family time, um, and probably when I'm out of work, I learned this when I left Chelsea actually, um, it was, I had a year out after that, and I, and I really learned or tried to improve my appreciation of when you're out of work, you're fortunate enough to be able to be out of work, whatever that circumstance is, but try and enjoy your family and be very, very present. So at the minute, I'm pretty present at home, which is a good thing, hopefully for my children and, and wife, and, uh, I'm in a pretty good place.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I remember my, my brain would often drift off when I had my time out of work, um, and I would think about things professionally, so I'd think about things that I could be doing or you'd think back to the past.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you're, when you're having those moments where your mate- I mean, your kids are running around and you, you have a moment where your brain drifts off to work.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is, what are the subjects that your brain starts thinking about professionally?
- FLFrank Lampard
You, you think a lot in management, uh, about people. So if I, if I reflect on situations like leaving Chelsea or leaving Everton and those things, there is, there are a lot of things that are out of your control. You get to a point where you kind of can get probably 70% of them and lock, lock them away and kind of going, "I'm all right with that." You know, results you can't control, but 70% you kind of, you're okay with. And it's 30% that you kind of niggles at you. That's how I am. And a lot of those things when you become manager are maybe sort of like people things. I think there's tactics and all these things are huge in the modern game, and I, uh, I'm certainly a coach. I'm not a manager. But when it comes to managing, I don't know, 25, 30 players, um, managing a building because you are the figure head- head of a building when you're the head coach or manager, I think sometimes when you're reflecting, you can reflect on things that, "Did I have that... Was that interaction right? Would I have dealt with that right? Could I dealt with it differently?" And hindsight is like the, the best, best thing, you know. It's so simple to sit there with hindsight and think, you know, "I should have done that." So I suppose I have moments where I go over things like that, but they're all, they're all with a, with a yearning to sort of be a bit better or learn that you might have done something wrong, or actually you come to the conclusion, "Oh, I maybe did it right." So, you know, I dip in and out of that stuff. Um, and that probably is, you know, as I say, I, I wouldn't say I'm the only one, but I, I certainly am someone that is, you know, I can never control when those moments come. I can be, you know, pushing the swing, you know, with my kid, and then my mind goes back to something or thinks ahead to something. And, you know, that probably means that I'm absolutely invested in what I do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I can relate to all of that.
- FLFrank Lampard
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think any- anybody can. Um, and I also really liked your analogy of once you get to like 50, 70% peace with something-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it's kind of resolved as much as you know.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then there's other things which feel kind of unresolved, I guess.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Or there's more wisdom to garner from those experiences.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah. Well, I think if you don't get to peace with the 70%, I think you can get yourself in a bit of a mess, you know. I think you can go over everything and correct yourself, and then, and then what is the answer going forward? So I think kind of understanding what you are and then going, "No, no, that, that was fine," whatever the result, for a win or for a loss. I've had games as a, as a coach and as a player...... where I, I, I, th- we've won a game and I know I got something wrong in the game. But you take the plaudits afterwards, but inside I know I got it wrong. I've had games that we've lost and you get criticism from the outside and I know my prep was right, you know, in my head. So, I think those sort of things you can kind of stack up and go, "No, well, that's fine." But then there'll, there's always the 30%. And we'll always strive for... and it might be less, I dunno, 30% sounds a big number when I say it. Sometimes only it's 10%-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
... to try and make you as good as you can be. So I kind of go over that stuff because when you're out of work, when you're not working and you don't know... in football, you don't know what your next gig is, you know, it's very hard to jump too far into the future because everything looks different there. So, how can you stack yourself up as good as you can now?
- 6:36 – 11:44
What shaped you?
- FLFrank Lampard
- SBSteven Bartlett
I wanna get into all of that, but I, I wanna take a step back because I think, um, I feel like there's more I need to understand about who you are as a person and your characters, and your character, and really the, the, the, like, the foundations you're built upon to understand all of these things-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the things we're gonna talk about. So, what do I, what do I need to know about Frank Lampard in terms of the influences and the experiences that shaped your character, the character of the man that sat in front of me? 'Cause you know, I've spoken to a lot of people about you in preparation for this conversation-
- FLFrank Lampard
(laughs) Oh, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... but they all, they all seem to sing from the exact same hymn sheet.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They all say, "Everyone says you're just a, a, a wonderful man. Like a really good, solid gentleman."
- FLFrank Lampard
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it's... people don't know this, but we were meant to have this conversation before.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But you've just been a total class act in, even not being able to come last time because of, you know, reasons outside of your control. Um, the way you conduct yourself, you just conduct yourself as a real gentleman. Um, and then in terms of your mentality, when I was reading through your early years, it's clear that there was this real obsession to be better. I mean-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... Harry said, Harry Redknapp said that you were the, the hardest training, hardest working person he's ever worked with when you were a young man. Tell me, what do I... why is Frank Lampard the way he is?
- FLFrank Lampard
Uh, I grew up in, in Romford in Essex. So, um, I would call it probably a, a, a middle class upbringing, in terms of my dad had been a professional footballer. Um, and so I went through a pretty, um, comfortable upbringing where I was going to school every day, aspiring to do pretty well at school. Um, training pretty much every day and playing at the weekends. So after school I would go and train at Tottenham and Arsenal and West Ham. At one point I was training at all three. You could in those days, now it's different. Uh, I was playing cricket, I was playing for Essex as a, um, as a, as a child. So that was on Monday night having nets at Chelmsford. And then on Sun- Saturday I went to school 'cause we only had school on Saturdays. Which I was devastated with it at the time-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
... as we all were. But that was how the school worked. And on Sundays I played. So my, my week was so busy but it was content, very content. In terms of relationship of, of my family, uh, I had a, a dad who was... pushed me very hard in the football front. Very, very hard. He was quite a hard taskmaster.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What does that mean in, in reality, specifically?
- FLFrank Lampard
Um, that means that probably when I was... I probably started kicking the ball when I was like four. Or maybe so- soons like I could walk. But you know, like, remembering my early days would be four or five. And then, so that was me in terms of I loved the football. Um, but probably by the time I was eight or nine, I was probably getting, like, coached or pushed in the, in what a 15 or 16-year-old might be when they're sort of going into an academy at West Ham, say, where I ended up. As in, work on your weaknesses, go over the park, you need to have more stamina. Your left foot's not good enough, your agility's not good enough. So he'll... I was like, used to put down the, the, the, the cushions in the front room and have me doing reaction, throw a ball against the wall and react and jump. I'm, I'm a kid. Like I, I, I loved it, don't get me wrong, but there were times when I didn't love it. And it got probably a bit too much. I'm not gonna cry about it because it made me what I was and gave me the career I, I got in the end. And then on the other flip of that, so I had that pushy kind of thing. And so after a game on a Sunday, I, we would lose and I would get... he would give me some criticism on the way home and I would be a bit emotional. And fortunately for me, when I think about sort of fate and how things work together to maybe get you to where you've got... you, you end up being, my mother was the, the flip, the emotional support, the, you know, arm around you, the quiet word. I was a mummy's boy. And that was completely my upbringing. So, as I say, it was pretty comfortable and in the end it led to me leaving school with my GCSEs, getting decent grades and then going to sign on as a YTS at the time, an apprentice at West Ham.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I read that, the quote about your father, I think it was in The Independent, that your dad was the biggest influence on your career. And then I read a separate quote saying that, "I have an awful lot to thank him for, but sometimes I hated him."
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah. (laughs) I, I, I stick by that quite...
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
It's, I, I, I think you'll probably find it, um, a lot in stories similar to mine. Um, and in the modern day I think it's changed, 'cause I think parents now... My, my, my... the, the thing with my story then, in a different era, was it, I... it felt pretty organic. My dad had played. Um, he saw probably a bit of talent in me and pushed and dr... in an old school way, "Oh, I want you to be a player, son." You know, and it was like he thi- I think he found a new sense of pride in pushing me there. Now I think some parents get excited about all the bright lights that may be and they push their children. And I think that's another story. But I think mine was real. You know, my dad was a tough man. He's a tough man. And he pushed me. And, um, I remember being over at a park and it was raining and he was crossing balls for me to head. Heading's never been a strength of mine. Then and now. So never... throughout my career. And I couldn't, you know, I couldn't connect, I was missing them and he was shouting at me and I remember sort of stomping off and, and being emotional about it. And, um, those things stick in my head. And again, they were the building blocks of, of myself as a person. So, you know, I... this isn't a sob story, it's just a reality of what I went through. As I say, I had a lot of other comfort, so I... you know, other people don't have it as good. And it was, without that, who knows, in a football sense, if I'd have
- 11:44 – 15:38
How did that shape your relationship with work?
- FLFrank Lampard
got to where I got.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And how does that, um... what relationship does that make you have with your work and progress and self-improvement at that very young age? 'Cause you signed at West Ham when you were, what, 14 years old-ish?
- FLFrank Lampard
Uh, 15 maybe.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You think 15?
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah, 15.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I, and I, and I mean, as I said, I read that Harry Redknapp quote that you outworked everybody else.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um-What, what, what is your relationship with your work?
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
From that very young age?
- FLFrank Lampard
Well, uh, uh, I, I'm sort of, um, really interested in this kind of nature versus nurture thing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
Um, what, what was in me already, was ingrained in me maybe to be this kind of very work ethic-y kind of person, I think I had, you know, physical capacity. I was a chubby kid, to be fair. I was quite chubby. I did cheeks, curtains, as you had in those days. And I remember, like, I know I needed to get fitter and, um, and get stronger. So, um, and then being pushed by my dad particularly and encouraged by my mum probably gave me this real desire, um, to ... And an understanding that if you don't work, you're not gonna get there. And that, you know, that's w- what I would try and pass on to my children now. Uh, but it really stuck and it became me. So by the time of being, you know, 16, as, as I remember, probably been at West Ham my early years, I'd probably been forced into a bit by my dad, but I took it onboard, so you know, I wanted to get faster so he put me in running spikes and I had to run after training, go and run over the back, and I used to hide my spikes, go out the back so they wouldn't ... the other players see me because I felt embarrassed. Um, I'd go in on days off, um, I would practice extra shooting. I would do everything I could to, to improve. And it probably was, looking back, um, a desire to be the best, and I was never the best. I was probably like the second or third best kid in pretty much every team that I played in, in whatever I did, cricket or football. Um, but I had a real desire to and I also had a fear of failure, and as much as that doesn't sound like a nice driving force, it can be a really strong driving force, I think.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where did that fear of failure come from?
- FLFrank Lampard
I don't know. I don't know. I think it's in my makeup maybe. I, I don't know. It's probably just how I am. I probably have it still these days. I think it can be really positive. It was in my footballing career and it, it carried on throughout, probably still in my management career. Um, it can probably be the flip of that in my life because if I've fear of failing something, I won't approach it, and I, I ... That's me, I don't want that. You know, my wife will always ... Christine jokes with me when we go on holiday and you wanna paddleboard or something, I'm like, "I'm not going near that 'cause I know I'm gonna fall off a lot." You know? (laughs) And so she'll laugh at me 'cause I'm like, "You paddleboard, I'll lay on the beach or I'll lay on the lilo or something like that." I actually use the paddleboard as a li- like that's like ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
... that's the joke. But it, in, in a bigger sense in my life, you know, that fear of failure is n- ... And I, I ... It can probably maybe make me, uh, not try things that I should do, but in terms of my footballing career, the fear of failure was a huge driving force. I- and I don't think it's a bad thing because I think there's a certain humility to it, and my mum would certainly have been the driver of me as a young person, just like, "Stay humble, son. Stay humble. Never get too high. Stay there and you'll be fine in your own head." So I, I think I had a real understanding of my weaknesses and I thought, "Well, if I can work on these constantly," and then I started to see results really step by step, sometimes you go back, you go forward a few, but I, I can certainly say looking back at my career from start to finish, I didn't leave anything on the table in terms of work ethic and training. You know, and I don't wanna sound like an absolute machine. There'll be days when you get older where you come off it a bit or you, you start to find life affects you in different ways, but I, I ... when I look at my peers in football, um, I certainly had a training ethic that at least was right at the top whether, you know, others can say the same maybe, but I felt that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I mean, that's the, the Harry Redknapp quote, he says that, um, during his career, um, he never met anyone that trained as hard as Frank, he would be out there on a, on a winter's day practicing shooting for hours, left foot, right foot, et cetera, et cetera. That fear of failure though, I, I can see how it becomes a driving force, it makes you stay
- 15:38 – 20:11
Fear of failure
- SBSteven Bartlett
out there on a winter's day, left foot, right foot, and then-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... leaving no stone unturned, but with all these things, there comes, there comes a more ... A, a cost on the other side of the coin, right?
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you ... I mean, you talked about the paddleboard thing which is that like kinda if I don't do it, then I won't fail, but sh- ... One of the things that I was assuming is that it would also make you quite a chronic over-thinker.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because I think people that have that fear of failure, they try and think their way (laughs) through a situation before it happens-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... typically. What is the cost of being that ... having that fear of failure?
- FLFrank Lampard
Um, well, the over-thinking thing is maybe a cost, and I think that can be a positive too, but I think it can be quite taxing, uh, on yourself, you know, for anyone who thinks like that and, you know, sometimes I would ... I, I've tried to make myself, you know, not an over-thinker. However you do that, I don't know, because I've not found a solution to that one, because, um, I think that's when you are that, um, it's in you. So, um, probably the, the, the, the negative or downsides have been probably a bit taxing on myself, but I think you learn to live with that too and I think you understand it. I think it's, um, something that I'll never master and, um, it can probably cause you into over-complicating situations, like you were saying about... I don't wanna get into that, but if you do get into something and you're really over-thinking and you have to get into something, I now try and step back and simplify it and say, "Stop over-thinking it. Simplify it." Because for me, anything in life, if you can simplify the basics, you'll probably get quicker to the solution. So, um, that one's just a struggle that I put up with. But as I say, I think it's just part of my makeup. If I wasn't an over-thinker, if I didn't have that sort of obsessive, sort of perfectionist training drive, I wouldn't have got to where I got to because I was not Lionel Messi who ... He's got this God-given talent that's there, like wherever my talent was on the spectrum, I needed to push it and I constantly tried to.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do you enjoy the process if you're over-thinking?
- FLFrank Lampard
I weirdly like ... I've (laughs) really grown to like the stress of what it brings, and that's ... And that, that's ... You might start thinking I'm a strange (laughs) person, I don't know, but I loved stressful training. You know, to put it on a physical side, for instance, I loved like that feeling of like almost feeling sick on a pre-season run, or you know, really intense training sessions. I, I really enjoyed that. Maybe not always in the moment, but you know, when you get to the end of it and you go, "I got through that and that was so intense and hard." And maybe in life sometimes I set myself challenges and maybe I, I make it more complicated than I should, but I don't mind that stuff. And that's probably when I started off talking about like relax when you're with your children, I think I'm, I'm still, um, juggling that one. And I think probably a lot of people are. I don't know, I think, you know, being an over-thinker is not something unique to me, it's completely everywhere. Um-... but (sighs) I don't, I don't know what else to say and that's what I am.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That, that, that enjoying the, the pain, like, uh, the preseason run if you feel sick then you feel good about yourself-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... why? (laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
(laughs) I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I, I went to the gym this morning and I really didn't want to go, and I'd walked the dog and my time limit's getting shorter. I thought, "I'm gonna go in, I don't wanna go, but I'm gonna go in 'cause I know the buzz that I'll get off- afterwards." And that's kind of my drug and it always has been. And, you know, it probably starts from all those early days of, you know, "You must work hard. You must push yourself. You must be as fit as you can be," and it probably just stuck, and it's probably a bit of a lifer for me. Um, but I do, I do thankfully... I, I, I, I, I enjoy the stress of hard work and physical work less now I've finished. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
You know, now it's more to not get too unhealthy and unfit. Whereas when I was training and playing, even when I finished playing for a couple of years, if I went for a 5K, I need to beat my 5K PB. I have to try and beat it. Now, when I do a 5K, I'm just gonna complete it, do you know? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
And I'm completing it in, like, 20 or 30 seconds less. So I've, I've dropped that one slightly and maybe I transfer it into other parts of my life, I guess.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Quick one before we get back to this episode. Just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people who watch this channel regularly and have hit that subscribe button. It means more than I can say. And if you hit that subscribe button, here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. (inhales deeply) Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to the episode.
- 20:11 – 24:34
The decision to stay in football
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you, when you finished your footballing career, you know, there's many options you had, punditry... I mean, I'm just talking about the typical paths that football is.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sometimes they just go into business.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
A few of them go into coaching and stay in football, but you, you made the decision to stay in football.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why? And was there-
- FLFrank Lampard
But-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... anything else that was tempting you?
- FLFrank Lampard
Well, I, well, I, I did punditry for a year, so I spent a year working-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
... uh, mainly on BT and doing some different things at BBC. I did a few bits and, uh, and I really enjoyed it. It was great. I was working a lot with Rio Ferdinand, Steven Gerrard, um, Jake Humphrey, he had on recently, and just really good people. And, and it was like a step in the game and a s- step I've retired so I can do other stuff. The, you know, the life of a pundit is, you know, much easier than a manager. We all know that. So I kind of put my eggs in both baskets at that point. I did that and I did my coaching badges, and I wanted to kind of see how I felt a little bit. And, uh, I didn't want to be a manager in my 20s. When I got to my 30s I was like, "That's interesting. People, managers, what, how, what are they dealing with?" I had just thought about myself in my 20s more. Um, and then when I finished, I did my coaching badges, I started to quite like it, and then I got an offer out of the blue to go and manage Derby, Derby County. The owner, Mel Morris, kind of went out on a bit of a limb. He was speaking to Harry Redknapp, who's my uncle, um... Harry said, "Speak to Frank." We sp- we sat for two hours in Chelsea in a hotel, and he offered me the job. And it was like, um, uh... Christian has a saying and it's, like, "Jump and the net will appear."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
And we sat in my front room and I was like, "You know, I've been doing my coaching badges, but this is a proper job. I'm going to go to Derby. There's- they've got some problems, and it's gonna be a difficult job," or whatever, as all jobs are. Uh, and I jumped.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- FLFrank Lampard
Um... (sighs) That inner, probably, drive that I have, that inner desire, I... you know, uh, it wasn't something that I... I am an over-thinker, so that probably made that process of those couple of days where I had to make a decision really intense. But at the same time, I, I like a challenge, I love a challenge. And as much as I enjoy punditry, it was, you know, it, it's, it's challenging. If you wanna do it well and you wanna do it like, you know, the top boys do it, you have to put everything into it and do it really well. Um, but I, I was want- I wanted more. I wanted to, to get on the grass. I wanted to work with players. I wanted to try and improve players. I wanted to see if I could do it. It's probably more, if I'm honest, probably, can I do it, and can I, you know, do something. And I was probably naive at the time, because the minute I walked into Derby I was like, "Wow, this is different." You know, "I've got hold them... I am now holding the meeting rather than one of the 25 players sitting, listening."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
And as much as you can think, "Oh, yeah, I'll do that," the minute you walk in and you see those 25 faces, and then you walk to, to say hello to Janette who's your secretary, and this one, and the player liaison, and I... Oh, shit have I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
... have I gotta (laughs) ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
Have I gotta manage all this as well? And you do. You have to sort of, you know... The building is yours to kind of set the tone. So that first year, some of it was good. Do you know what? I think sometimes in management... A great manager said to me s- me this. He said that... And he was old. He's old. He was old. And he said to me, "I think I was a better manager when I was young in many, many ways." He said, "Because when I... as I got older, I started to really sort of overthink things and become a little bit more cynical," and, you know, you kind of go over these things. He said, "When I was young I'd just make decisions and I was kind of free to do it." Now, I think there's a balance to that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
Experience is obviously a clear- can clearly help. As you go along, you learn from mistakes. But I unders- I understood his point when he said that, 'cause I walked into Derby fresh and I made a lot of mistakes, 'cause you, you always will. But I also had a, a freshness and a bounce and a feeling inside me that was kind of like, "I wanna take this on." And even though there was moments of fear, you know, that kind of... when you feel, like, a bit of imposter syndrome. "Should I be doing this?" And you've got to hide it. Like, I remember having the whistle for the first day on the front of the... in the training pitch going, "I'm gonna blow this at the end of training." And I'd been used to hearing, right, co- (laughs) this sounds so stupid, but I'd been used to hearing coaches go, "Shh. End of the session. Stop." I was a bit like, "What kind of whistle am I..." I didn't want to do, like, a little (blows whistle) . (laughs) You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
And I remember going... You know, like...
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
So let alone, like, I've got to pick a team and set the tactics and set the tone. I was a bit... All those little things. And I think every... If they're honest, I, I think, you know, people in business, yourself-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
... have all had those mom- the most simple things where you're sitting there going, "Wow, that little basic thing that I didn't consider is now in my head."
- 24:34 – 26:53
Imposter syndrom
- SBSteven Bartlett
Imposter syndrome, that, I mean, it, that's somewhat linked to, I guess, your fear of failure.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you... How, how does... Uh, we, we talk a lot about imposter syndrome on this podcast-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because it's, it's a, it's a two d- it's a double-sided thing.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
On one hand, you have that feeling of, um, which I can recall when I became a Dragon on Dragons Den, and I'm sat next to Peter Jones and Deborah Meaden.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Peter Jones has been there for 21 seasons, since th- the beginning. Deborah Meaden's been there for 17, and I feel like I've just walked into the TV.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, like your little whistle thing-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... was me like, "How do I say I'm out?"
- FLFrank Lampard
(laughs) Yeah, oh, exactly. Exactly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Like, you know?
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, but bi- being at peace with that, like how d'you, how have you dealt with that in your career? Because you went from being a pundit to managing a, a club that was trying to get promotion, to then Chelsea.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
These are huge leaps forward.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Huge leaps forward.
- FLFrank Lampard
Um, I think, uh, I probably managed to get coping mechanisms along the way that have, uh, have put that to the side. And, and in, in simple sense, I've become much more confident in myself, um, away from work, away from work actually, at home, much more content in myself. Again, that probably comes back to being really settled in a relationship. I'm 45 now, just turned. Um, but in the workplace as well, I've... Um, that first year, I remember feeling it a lot, and when I moved to Chelsea, like it should be a huge move, it's a huge jump to the Champions League club team-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
Even though I knew the club very well, it was a huge jump to deal with players of a different stature, et cetera. Um, but I've found that imposter syndrome thing much less. And I had just had coping mechanisms where I could kind of just go, "Okay, you're, you're nervous taking this meeting because you're a bit out of your comfort zone, you've got to be critical of a player." Say, you're gonna go in on someone, you're gonna show a video of the game the other day, and it's like, that's, that's not a comfortable thing to do always. And I just probably have found mechanisms to be able to go, "Right, you almost go into the, the character." I, I don't want to sound like an actor-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
... too much, but you go, "No, I'm just gonna go into it." And the more I think you do that, um, the better you can be at coping with that thing. And then, you just kind of also have to get a realization that, you know, you can feel a bit like that, you can feel a little bit like, "Oh, I'm out of my comfort zone," like, you can make mistakes. I think showing that you can make a mistake in front of a group of players is not the worst thing. You know, they're there to... Uh, players will get it, you make the smallest mistake, one of those 25 at least is gonna go, "Well, when he said that..." You know? And... But I think you've got to come to peace with that, and you can even joke about it after the event, because you'll keep making them. So I probably come, come to terms with being able to deal with that side of it, I think.
- 26:53 – 29:43
How hard is it to be yourself as a coach vs copying successful coaches?
- FLFrank Lampard
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, um, I, I was thinking that as you were s- speaking, actually, about m- my experience being a Dragon. And when, um... One of the things I've always wondered about players when they go from being a player to a manager-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and especially when they've been managed under a g- a legend of a manager-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So like I was thinking about Ol- Ollie, um, Ollie Gunn Solskjaer and Sir Alex Ferguson.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How hard is it to like be yourself versus be the successful manager that you saw win? Like, because even when I became a, a Dragon-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I think for the first two years for sure, I was trying to be a Dragon-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... not being Steve.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's a, that's a journey, but do you understand the question I'm asking?
- FLFrank Lampard
I completely get it. I get asked it a lot, and not in the, not in exactly the way you get asked, but I get asked it by football journalists who say, "So what did you take out of all your managers-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
... you played?" And all this stuff. And you know, just to jump to one would be Jose Mourinho. It's a good one to jump to because he had a huge effect on my career, as many did, but he came and probably elevated me and my playing career to a different level. And what I learned from Jose and as I then went on to managers after that, was that the, the thing that impressed me about Jose, there was a real authentic nature to him. Like, when he was self-confident, overconfident, kind of brash Jose, he, that's him. You know, that was him. And, you know, maybe he's playing up a bit now and again, but I saw him behind the scenes. And then when I've worked with other managers that maybe were probably striving to be something like that, and I think after Jose there was a... There were a generation of managers that (laughs) were a bit like, "Okay, I'm gonna wear this. I'm gonna wear the scarf and I'm gonna tie it and I'm gonna wear the..." You know, or, or act a bit kind of, you know, say those things he used to say or does say. Um, and I didn't, I didn't buy it as such. And even from outside when you watch him manage, you know, you have that impression. So I think probably, uh, you go, "Okay, can I take things from all these managers?" For my journalist question, yeah, I did from some and not from others, blah, blah, blah. But when you come to it, you have to be yourself because you'll get found out. And you'll, you'll probably be right. In my early days, I also did that. I did my first meeting at Derby, again, was like, "Right, I'm an ex-player, so anyone who wants to knock on my door, come and see me and I'll ha- you know, I'll tell you the truth and we'll have it out or I'll, you know, I'll give you the answer that you want." And I remember like the first three weeks, they, they kept knocking on the door (laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
I was like, I was like, had to do another meeting and say, "Lads, if you're gonna knock on my door, come to me with like facts of why you should play. You know, how's your training? You know, come with something. I don't want you just like, I didn't play on Saturday, on Monday morning there's like five on the door kno- knocking." And, you know, open policy in a door is good. But at the same time it was like those were like learning curves for me, like I probably said that, that phrase because I thought, uh, I needed to say it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right, yeah, yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
You know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
Because as a player it's a really, some really cool things as a player. "Hey, I want the managers to be able to, uh, speak to me all the time." And when I said it, I was like saying what I thought I should say and then, you know, you learn a little lesson. You know, uh, my door hopefully is still open now, but at the same time though, I was probably playing the, the part of a manager.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
Um, and then you're kind of going, "Well, what, what's real to me here?" You know, like, "Do I have to say that? Is there another way of saying it?" Or whatever.
- 29:43 – 33:40
Do you think you jumped into high manager roles too soon?
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that kind of brings me to a, a question which is, wouldn't it-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... therefore have been great for you to go and learn those lessons when the stakes weren't so high?
- FLFrank Lampard
Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because even the stakes are super high at Derby because you're f- you're figuring out Frank the manager there-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and sometimes you don't want to be at the poker table playing with real money (laughs) -
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... until you've learned.
- FLFrank Lampard
But, but that's my life, you know. I, I, I know what you're saying and I think as a, as an, as a... I think, I think I can say this. I think as an English ex-player, Steven Gerrard, others that have played at a, a higher level, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
... they played 100 times for our country, et cetera. I think pla- the, the, the, the culture in this country is to sort of say, "Right, now you're a manager, go and earn your stripes there because being a player of that level doesn't mean you're gonna be a manager."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
So I think that could have been a route where you can kind of get a little plot of fair play. He went down to, you know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
... Division 2 and he's showing what he's doing and there's a process. The, the reality is that path wasn't for me. You know, when Mel, Mel Morris asked me to do the, take the Derby job, it was a question.Yeah, challenge? Yes, please, I'll take the challenge. You know, when... I had one year there and Chelsea came to me, it was a difficult time. They had a transfer ban. You know, Eden Hazard was leaving. It was a real transition, young players. "What's going to be their next year?" I think probably some big managers had turned it down. Well, I know that. So it was like, "Yeah, you know what? Challenge, I'll take it." So, you know, I don't want to try and re-create the past or think, "Why didn't I do that?" Because, you know, I've managed... In four years of management, I've had some experience-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
And for all the... You know, you'll always get criticism. You know, you leave Chelsea, people will criticize you. You go to Everton, you stay up, you get relegated, people will criticize you. But at the same time, I'm, I am resilient enough to deal with all that stuff now. That's put, been, probably the beauty of having a long career in football. And so my, my thing is, I can manage Derby, I can go and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
... manage Chelsea, and do it to a good level as well, because I've had successes as well as when it hasn't gone so well. I mean, that's the modern-day manager. So, I think I probably crammed in a lot of work in four years and, and working at a high-end level with players that will test you and question you, 'cause Champions League players question you. So, it's just my path.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The, um... I mean, that's... So Champions League players questioning you-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you don't ever a- assume that happens. I mean, I don't know a ton about what goes on in the foo- in the room, but...
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah, no, I think what, what, when I say that, I think in, um, the modern-day player particularly, I think they, in, in previous eras, it probably would've been more vocal and, you know... But now the modern-day player have a good understanding of the game. A lot of them have been coached in academies very, very well, to a high level. Uh, when they get to the top, they also... When you, when you, you know, are setting out tactics, they, they will have questions for you. And, and I, and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
And you have to buy into that because, you know, you, the reality is what you want is them to understand what you want or sometimes they say something and you go, "Okay, we might change that," you know, or, or whatever it might be. And I think when you get to the, to the top level in football, you have to understand that that's there. Now, there's a... They have to understand you're the boss and you have to make that very clear. Um, but at the same time, there will be lots of players that will challenge you, "What, what do you mean by that, boss?" Come to you, "What, what, but what about if that happens?" You know, and you get a lot more of that. And you... I remember reading Pep Guardiola once said that even if you don't know the answer-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
... pretend that you know the answer (laughs) .
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was gonna say that, yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
And, you know, so you, there is a version of that because, you know, when you're getting things thrown at you sometimes it's like... You know, football is an active game.
- 33:40 – 37:31
What do you think makes a great manager?
- SBSteven Bartlett
um, so many of them. Mm-hmm. I mean, there was one period at where... I mean, the managers were being sacked every six months-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it feels like, at Chelsea.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, and the thing I garnered from all of them is that there is actually not a successful blueprint to being a successful manager. There's not, like, a blueprint.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's not a way to be a successful manager.
- FLFrank Lampard
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Some of them are tacticians, some of them are man managers.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that accurate?
- FLFrank Lampard
It's very accurate. I, I agree with that. Um, and Chelsea is a bit, a bit of a unique example because in my time there, they changed manager a lot, as you say, and I don't think that's the most productive way to, to run a, a business in an ideal way, in terms of football, because in an ideal way you kind of go, "We're trusting this manager, let's work with it. Here's the idea, we're gonna go with it." And of course, it's the prerogative of the owners to change that. What we did have at the time was a fantastic unit within the dressing room of high talent, high personality that, that led the dressing room. So we had a great team and a great squad. And, and when I say that, we had a spine of players, of John Terry, myself, Petr Cech, Didier Drogba, Ashley Cole, I could go on. And there were personalities that sometimes would clash, but we knew our place. We knew we could rely on him. I knew that I would run for him and he'd run for me. And we also had high talent of, of player that would... Didier Drogba would score in every final, pretty much. So I think we kind of, like, bridged that gap of changing managers. Um, and so I think when you come back to the, the question of, you know, great managers, I think sometimes it's, um, it's a case of compromising with what you're working with. You have to get the people skills right. And that's the first thing I learned as a manager, the difference from playing, is that you have to deal with people. You've got to try and inspire every player within that group and inspire the collective. So every player will have a different motivation. It might be money for one. It might be, "I wanna be the best striker in the world." It might be, "I wanna be in front of him because I don't like him." Whatever that is, you try and tap into. And I think the greatest of managers, my opinion, and I played under, as you say, a lot, and I'm trying to be one, is that they give you something that you believe in, that you can strive for and you all buy into. And it's, and it's a... And sometimes it's a messy process. You know, you watch Man City lift that treble just now and you li- listened to the Champions League, there will be so many things that we don't know behind the scenes. "This player's unhappy." "Pep had to do this." Da-da-da-da. All these things that come together and give you that amazing moment, and I had that as Chelsea as a player. And so for, to, to future's sake, go on, tell me what a great manager is and me to go, "Here's an answer for you in one minute."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
It's like, im- impossible to say.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Man management, that's what all the United players said about Sir Alex.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's the only thing that they all, uh, completely agree on. They would say he was the best man manager.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, um, an inconsistent leader, which is an interesting concept. And what I mean by inconsistent leader is he would treat Gary in a different way-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to Nani, to Evra.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And they all told me their stories and Rio as well told me about when, um, Sir Alex brought that bottle of whiskey to his ill grandfather's bedside.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And Rio doesn't know how he knew th- the favorite brand of whiskey and how he knew his granddad was ill.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Gary told me he used to s- tap him on the shoulder and say, "Think about your fa- your grandfather's shrapnel, which is still in his shoulder when you go out there today."
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That kind of bespoke, tailored approach to leadership, which is-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- 37:31 – 39:25
What are you like as a manager?
- FLFrank Lampard
I think.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What are you like as a manager, if you had to do, like, a self-assessment?
- FLFrank Lampard
I think you've got (laughs) you've gotta ask somebody else that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
I don't know. Um, I don't know. I try and be, uh, close to the players, as I say, my open door thing, but at the same time, I think I, I try and find a balance. I, I think the important thing for me was when I became a manager was to not expect anybody, any player to see it how I saw it or train how I trained or whatever, you know, for good or for bad. And you have to... That's, I think, a bit of a skill which, you know, Sir Alex probably had perfectly. So I try and be as close to the players. I try and learn all the time. I'm a coach. I wanna coach on the pitch. I think my biggest pleasure is coaching and improving players, and particularly young players. And I've had the, you know, the, the fortune to work with some really good young players. At Derby, I had Mason Mount, Harry Wilson, Fikayo Tomori, and then at Chelsea, obviously Tammy Abraham extra ones, and at Everton Anthony Gordon, et cetera. So I think they are the real sponges that are a real pleasure to work with, and I love that part of it, being able to speak to them. And, and you do find, and it's a reality, and I remember being an older player, you're a bit more cynical. When you're a younger player, you're like, com- like, they're, they're like a ca- blank canvas.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
And you can, you know, push them and try and push them and that. So I'm probably quite intense with the younger players. Um, I try and be, as I say, inclusive and that, and I'm, I'm always trying to learn. Um, and, and trying, just trying to be me. It's h- it's a hard answer, that one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
I think you'd have to ask, you know, maybe a member of staff or a player. Like, pick the right player 'cause you'll probably get-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) .
- FLFrank Lampard
... different answers because when you work with... I worked at Chelsea recently with 30 players. I pick, you pick 11 for a game and, like, eight subs, and the subs, eight outfield subs. The subs don't really like you 'cause they're not starting, let alone the other 10, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
So it's a really hard balance with a modern squad to, to get that, but you have to try and make it inclusive because if you're gonna get anywhere, you've gotta go all together. And that was one of the problems for me at Chelsea this season. 30 players is, is, it's not possible to manage that.
- 39:25 – 44:20
As a leader what are you working on?
- FLFrank Lampard
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, and the other, this is, maybe this is an even more difficult question. What are you trying to work on then? What are the, the areas of, as a leader, as a manager, you're trying to work on? 'Cause I can think of for myself, I can think of a number of areas where I go, "Do you know what? That is still somewhere where I have a recurring..." When I reflect in hindsight, I go, "Fuck, I ca-, I sh- I need to get better here."
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is that for you?
- FLFrank Lampard
Quite a few things, I would say, because, um, the over-thinker thing comes in again, and I'm, I'm a bit of a perfectionist. So, you know, I always wanna try and improve, um, you know, my tactical and, and the personal touch and those things. But I think, uh, when I came away from Chelsea, I realized that I needed to delegate time better. That was something I was certainly not great at. I've got... Y- you have your staff for a reason. They're there to support you, and at times, they'll be better than you at certain things. So give them it, you know, and give them that. You obviously oversee that thing, and I probably spent a lot of time, um, trying to be across everything. Whereas really, I probably could have come back from that and saved my own energy. So I think I'll certainly try and improve that side. I did between Chelsea and Everton for sure, to try and save that. I can, um, uh, be pretty overreactive sometimes if I see things I don't like in terms of... And when I say that, it's always effort or standards, and I think I, I am, that's one of the things I'm biggest on, is that, you know, if you are gonna make a mistake in a game, I've got no problem with that. Um, if you are gonna not run for your teammate, if you're not gonna train through the week with an idea that when I train on Monday, that's got a direct relation to what Saturday is gonna look like. If that feeling isn't there, then I probably can either get upset with a player or maybe kind of distance the player. And I think when you're working with a group, you have to be careful of that one because not every player has your mentality. So you have to either try and bring them up to the party, or if not, then they're gonna have to not be there if you're gonna have success, as far as I see it. And that sounds really harsh, but it's one of those things where you go, if you can work in a, in a, in a team and you're gonna take it, it to exactly where you want it to be, out of that squad of 25, if you've got that kind of... I remember, look, managers will say this. You have, you know, like, there's your six or seven, you know who you're gonna get every day. They're gonna train, they're gonna come in, they're gonna be so active every day. You're gonna have the middle group who are somewhere in the middle, and you're gonna have the ones that may be, "Ah, I'm just coming to training." You know, or, "No, I'm not... I'm a bit sore today." You know, that, and that sounds simplistic to say it, but you have to try and work, if you wanna work in a forward direction and go, "Okay, those six are with me." Right? You try and garner them.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Disciples.
- FLFrank Lampard
Those are the ones that can kind of pass the message. Those ones in the middle, okay, can we keep pushing and working between me and the staff to try and improve them? And then the ones that are there, come on, can we help them? Can they come with us? If not, you have to speak to the club. And that's where a club has to be aligned to go, "Okay, if you wanna go in that direction and we're with you, okay. We'll, we'll work that out." And that becomes a recruitment or players leaving the club. I mean, that's, you know, that's, that's the reality of how it has to be.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that's the reality of business as well. Um, uh, I've just finished writing this book, and it talks about these three lines and th- basically says if everybody in... Think about a person in your team, and if everybody in the team represented their cultural values-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... right? Which is what you're talking about with your six disciples there.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If everybody represented their cultural values, would the bar, would the overall bar be raised or lowered?
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you have some people who would, imagine if everyone was like them, like a Frank, you know-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yep.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... a Frank Lampard or a John Terry, how high that the cultural values-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... would be raised. And then you have other people where if everyone was like them-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you'd be relegated.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, and what to do with those three cohorts of bar raisers, maintainers, and-
- FLFrank Lampard
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... bar lowerers. And that's kind of what I...
- FLFrank Lampard
Right. That's a good way of putting it. I mean, I, and I think the...I think the bar raisers can take some time to raise the bar, but the bar lowerers-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
... c- c- can get you very quickly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. Yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
That, that's kind of my experience because that kind of, when that kind of, that toxicity-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Contagious.
- 44:20 – 48:59
Managers these days never seem to last very long…
- SBSteven Bartlett
kept me there because of the, my impact on the dressing room."
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"Not my impact on the pitch, but on the dressing room."
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"I could keep, keep the standard high."
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, in the modern world, I was reading the stats, managers are getting fired quicker than ever.
- FLFrank Lampard
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it almost, it must be so difficult to establish authority when the players are aware, um, that the manager's gonna be the one to be taken out if things don't go well.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In business, it's not like that-
- FLFrank Lampard
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... as a CEO, because I own the company and I am the manager.
- FLFrank Lampard
(laughs) Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So (laughs) -
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... if there's, if there's behavior underneath me that's toxic and contagious-
- FLFrank Lampard
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I can act.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The center of authority is with me.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Whereas, it seems like in a club, the center of authority is really, like, the chairman and the owner.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, sometimes the manager manages, manages to get there.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But in the modern world, we don't let managers last long enough to build that authority.
- FLFrank Lampard
No. And that's the tough world that it is. And I think, you know, you probably have to earn the right as a manager to get to a club maybe, when you look at the perfect models right at the top. You know, uh, Manchester City is a good one to talk about. Now I worked with the City group, I had one year of playing there. And I could see when I was there, they, Pep hadn't arrived at that point, but I could see with the stability from above and how it run and the vision, it was like, we're gonna get, they were gonna get somewhere, because they had a great structure. And it wasn't like it was gonna get pulled and, pushed and pulled for, you know, a small period of time was never gonna get there. And then they hired Pep. You know, they had a not a difficult first year, but the first year was kind of him finding his way, "I need this, I need this." And then he's a fantastic coach and they have great players. But if you don't have that aligned thing where, as you said, the most important person at a club in the modern day, in my opinion, is the owner, and it is the structure at the top, because they really, they set the tone. Maybe it's financially, uh, maybe it's with the sporting directors and recruitment because you'll be as good as the players you recruit. A great manager, again, I, I don't wanna sit here and drop names, that said to me, it was when we finished at, um, the fir- my first season at Everton, we just stayed up, skin of our teeth. And he was like, rang me to say congratulations and he went, "Frank, don't rest. 80% of your work for next season will be done in the next month." So it was recruitment.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
So, like, 20% will be what you do next se- and now the 80% is, like, bringing the right players. So I, I think, you know, like, that, that alignment, as I, as, as I keep saying there, is something that, you know, if you can get, um, an, an owner, an own- there were great owners and there were great sporting directors and recruitment and the manager, and the manager is so, you know, critical to it. But when you look at last season, 13 managers left their club, I think it's 13, out of 20 clubs. And you're talking about, you know, f- Antonio Conte and you're talking about-
- 48:59 – 55:02
The standards at Chelsea just weren’t there
- SBSteven Bartlett
I saw you say it in every post-match.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah, I know, and it wa- it wasn't like, uh, I'm not trying to be clever and go, "I'm just gonna, this is my line now, standards." But it was like, it was very evident to me when I walked in, um, because...You know, (sighs) having worked at Chelsea as a, as a coach before and as a player, I, I, I do know the standards. I do know that. And this is not a direct criticism of the players either, because when I s- look at the players' situations, where they were, and I understood how it had been a long year. I walked in on, with 10 games to go. They'd been there for the whole season, and a lot of players were not playing, they were probably gonna leave, which we're seeing now, that whether they were gonna leave or the club wanted them to leave, or they, or they hadn't been playing with the previous managers. And I could see in training that it wasn't, the level wasn't enough. It wasn't enough to go and get a result at, you know, whoever you might wanna say, at, at Brentford at home or at, let alone Real Madrid. It wasn't enough. And, and I can say this now, 'cause I said this to the players, and again, it's not an individual criticism of the players because I also, when you're trying to say you wanna be a manager, you have to have a, a personal understanding of, like, human nature. If I'm a player that's not been playing for the last seven months and I think I'm leaving in four weeks' time, I'm probably gonna struggle to motivate that player. You know, I'm not- I haven't got a magic wand to motivate that player. So I think it was that probably the- my biggest learning out of Chelsea, was when you talk about standards and culture, I think people go, "Oh, well, he talks about his standards, you know, well, he talks about his culture." And I, you know, maybe had to catch myself on and not say it every interview-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
... but at the same time, it was, if you don't have a building block of standards, then that winning culture that everyone goes, "What's winning culture?" You go, "Well, let me, uh, I'll try and explain it to you, but it has to start with a basic standard." And which for me is always, like, train to a level where you're gonna push your teammate, he's gonna push you, and then we're gonna be as competitive as you can be. We don't have to win. Not every team can win. You know this, Manchester City pretty much win the league every year at the minute, so what's success for everybody else? For Brighton it's come in sixth or whatever. For Newcastle it's, wow, Champions League, that's huge success. So everyone has a version, but my guess is those teams that have overperformed, outperformed, they've got something there which is a basic standard that they just build on. And you know, to be fair to Chelsea, they're in a position now where that's needs to be worked on again, it's a transitional time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, that brings me to the quote you said after your Newcastle game, which was, "The standards collectively have dropped. I can be honest now." Um, because it's your last game, "I might not see them for some time anymore." But low standards are a symptom of something further upstream-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that's happened. And we saw this at Manchester United. I'm a big Man United fan. I've seen a, a decade, five years of just, like, chaos, where we've got these amazing players-
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... but one plus one equals 1.5.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
We call it diseconomies of scale.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, in great culture, one plus one equals three.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, where you can make great, average players together play-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... amaz- the, the football of their lives. The furthest upstream thing, where did the standards start to slip? What is the thing that happens in a club like Chelsea, in your experience, when you went back there, that had caused that dropping of standards which we now saw on the pitch with your sort of 10 games there?
- FLFrank Lampard
Well, I think, um, when, I was tongue in cheek, by the way, when I said, "I'm not gonna see them again."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
Because it was a bit like, as I say, I wouldn't say I hadn't said it to 'em, and I've said it a good few times, but, uh, uh, the, the position of it was that, and I think the biggest thing about the standards thing, was the, the size of the squad. Uh, it was, the, the motivation of players that, um, you're gonna not play or you're out of the Champions League squad, or these things, like, it's, it's like asking, you know, one of y- y-, I don't know, you, you maybe love doing this, this is just, this is like one of your great mom- you know, I wanna sit-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
... and you wanna speak to all these fantastic people that you speak to. Go, "Thanks for your prep, Steve. And now Peter Jones is gonna do it." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
You know what I mean? You're like, "Cheers." Do you know what I mean? Like, how long are you gonna go with that?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- FLFrank Lampard
So I, and, and I think in football, that's, it's, it's a challenge with 20 or so players, which is the modern squad. But with, with Chelsea it's got very big, to the point where, this is how I felt, where I can say, uh, you know, I, I'm not criticizing that player for, uh, dropping standards. I, I wanna try and get something out of him, 'cause I had a short period, I wanna try and get something out of him. So I would try it, but then when you actually look at it, you kind of go, yeah, but he's had this for a long time where he's not playing, so he's not now being competitive with that player who is playing. So that player's pretty comfortable too, because he's not pushing him.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
So you kind of get this thing where you're, like, you know, we probably took it for granted in, in, in some of my better days at Chelsea when we were successful of, like, this kind of thing that works, you know, it wasn't even a thing you said, you know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
You didn't have to sort of have a meeting every day and go, "You know, I wanna have a standards culture, you know, a nice pie chart, and that's what that is." It was almost like, this is what we do.
- 55:02 – 1:04:13
One of the issues was…
- FLFrank Lampard
that was a, a difficult situation, to be fair.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, it never crossed my mind that the size of the squad has such a big impact, but it makes perfect sense because you need that sort of healthy competition, and I believe your first team was, was it 32 players?
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... which is more than you're allowed to register for the Premier League or Champions League.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So you had this kind of surplus of-
- FLFrank Lampard
A lot of players. A few, a few were always injured probably, you know, so that comes down a bit. But it's the surplus. And it's the surplus of, um... Y- the, the, the make-up of the squad is international players, generally. There was a, there were a couple of young players, but when you try and build a squad, it will be like, "This is, you know, this is my core kind of 15 or 16," and then you go on, "Maybe these, these two experienced players that might not need to play every week." And then we've got these kids that are waiting and they're like just happy to be there, they wanna play, they're gonna be training, and if you give them an opportunity, they'll be like ... But when you have like international players in a big number, then of course, you know, you're, you're telling internationals, "You've gotta stay at home." So it's not, it's not easy. And, you know, to, to have the conversation every Friday with them and get them lined up coming in is also not easy for your own energy. Do you know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
So I... That's not easy. I don't care how, what kind of a, a man- manager you are. Like, it's like, "Next. You're not playing." "Okay." "Next. You're not playing." You know, like, whatever you, however you try and box that up to a player, eventually they'll probably go, "I know I'm not playing."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
You know, like, "Stop telling me this shit." (laughs) Do you know what I mean? So, I think, you know, that, that was an interesting learning curve for me. Like, an interim job is, is what it is. Um, and I kept getting asked, you know, people... It was kind of frustrating but at the same time it was like, "Are you finding it so hard? Are you finding it so hard?" I was like, "You know what? I'm back home in a club that I love. You know, a fantastic training ground. I'm doing everything I can in this job to try and improve it." But there were... And I, I knew behind the scenes, there were a lot of things that, you know, myself and my staff, we, we want to improve, we want to coach, we want to sort of... When you, when you lack those basics, and as I say, I, I, I think there's an understanding at the club that it has to change now. I think it has to, it has to change. Then if you lack those basics, then it, i- i- it's really hard to get where you want, wanna get to.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what... How does that happen, though? So there's thir- these 32 players, and then Chelsea spends more money than I think anyone's ever spent in a, in a window.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In that sort of January window. You bring in all of these players on these long contracts, which I've never heard before.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think it was like eight-year (laughs) contracts.
- FLFrank Lampard
Mm-mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And they're all like class, amazing individual players. Um, is that a, is that because the, the new owner doesn't understand those dynamics of football? 'Cause that's what it had seemed like for me. I thought either this is a genius (laughs) or an idiot. (laughs)
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know?
- FLFrank Lampard
And-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I don't, I don't wanna criticize anyone, like, on a personal level, but as a fan looking in I go, "Signing these players on eight-year contracts, they're great players, spending all this money." The impact on culture when you just throw-
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... stars in at such quantity.
- FLFrank Lampard
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It looked in, it looked like inexperience and, um, naivety.
- FLFrank Lampard
I think that's, um, that's understood now in terms of what it's meant with those 30 players. And I think you've seen that now in that already I think, uh, around six, seven, eight players have left. So I think the, the intentions are certainly good. I know that, 'cause I worked... The owners gave me an opportunity to go in there and I had a good relationship with them. Their intentions to do a good job at Chelsea are amazing. They wanna take the club and be the best, you know? They have great intentions. So now I think those younger players now with, um, a, a new voice, a new manager, the, the squad coming tighter, I think they'll have a greater chance to show what they've got anyway. And they're talented players. And, you know, I remember being in Chelsea when Eden Hazard arrived. In preseason it was like, "Is this kid..." Maybe he was a bit lazy-looking, you know? He was a bit kind of strolling around. "Is this kid definitely all right?" And in that first season, it was like, "Oh, no, he's really good." And then on the second and third season, it was like, "No, this kid's one of the best players the Premier League's seen," or whatever.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- FLFrank Lampard
Thierry Henry, Didier Drogba, like you can go through all these players who are s- who are like absolute legends. Now if you're asking, you know, those five, six, seven players to come in and hit the ground running i- in a, in a difficult moment for the club, it's understandable. So I, I think as a Chelsea fan, you know, you look at it and kind of go, "Right, okay, that, that, that is positive. There's talent there, okay?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
Episode duration: 1:55:38
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