The Diary of a CEOFrom My Garden Shed To $100m Business Empire! “That Letter Was The End Of Represent” - George Heaton
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,018 words- 0:00 – 2:40
Intro
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know when people talk about work/life balance, what's your honest opinion of that?
- GHGeorge Heaton
(beep) Kobe Bryant wasn't doing three throws at 3:00 AM for no reason.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But there's a cost to that, right?
- GHGeorge Heaton
George Heaton. The founder of global fashion brand, Reprezent.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Worn by The Weeknd, Post Malone, Justin Bieber. One of the most popular luxury street brands in the world.
- GHGeorge Heaton
When I was 18 starting this brand, it was just me and my brother in my dad's shed, figuring out products and where we could take the brand. But then we went from doing 10, 15 sales to, like, a thousand every day of the week, two thousand, three thousand, four thousand. We were making money at that time, more than what we should've in our early 20s. So we were fucking around a lot, alcohol, girls, cars, and we were doing like 35 million revenue. And it was like, "We're gonna do 50 million next year, but we (censored) we don't know what we're doing." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Now, the business is doing about $100 million.
- GHGeorge Heaton
That's when the realization came that you don't need to be good at business to own a business. There's people that are so much better at things than you. They can lay the foundations for it to become a billion-dollar brand, and you can focus on what you're actually good at. That was the catalyst that just changed everything. We're building this. There's no ceiling to what it can be. That was until we got a letter from... That was the worst day in the business. It was rock bottom. But the best view of heaven is from hell, right? You've got to get to the bottom of that mountain to start reclimbing it. It became this driving force, that thought, "We cannot stop now."
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then what happens? It's absolutely crazy to me that so many of you have decided to watch our show, um, and so many of you have decided to subscribe to our show. We now have five million subscribers on YouTube, which is a number that I just can't comprehend, and it's a dream that I absolutely never could've had. We started the Diary of a CEO just over three years ago now. And in my wildest expectations, we might have had 100,000 subscribers by now. So you can imagine how shocked I am that so many of you have chosen to tune into these conversations every week, um, and spend some time with us. So thank you. And I made a deal with you, I made a deal that if you subscribe to this show, that we would continue to raise the bar. And in 2024, we're gonna raise the bar like never before. I've been working for the last nine months on a surprise for all of you that have subscribed to this show, and I'm very excited to deliver that for you. The production's gonna change. We're gonna go even further with our guests, and we're gonna tell even more global stories. So as always, if you appreciate what we're doing here, the simple, free favor I'll ask from you is to hit the subscribe button. Let's get on with the episode.
- 2:40 – 2:50
What is the mission you're on?
- SBSteven Bartlett
George, what is the mission that you're on?
- GHGeorge Heaton
It's just to be the best version of myself, really. Just to show up and do everything at the highest level I can.
- 2:50 – 4:37
What influence did your father have on you?
- GHGeorge Heaton
- SBSteven Bartlett
What influence did your parents have? 'Cause I- I've heard you talk about your mother and your father a lot, but let's start with your father. What kind of influence did he have on you?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I guess (sighs) when I was growing up, he had, he had a bit more than what everyone else had in my town. So, like, he had a Range Rover, and he dropped me off to school in that Range Rover, and all the kids thought that was sick. So automatically I felt proud of that. So I was like, "I wanna be like this." Like, "What is it that my dad's got that other people don't have?" Um, and the way he showed up with my family and how he would... He wouldn't, like I would, I've never seen him drunk. Even to this day I've never seen him drunk. Like, he was a role model as, like, this stoic guy that would just work hard, show up, drop his kids off at school, come to football training every single night. Like, he would be there for me. And I think that was just, like, even though it was never spoke about in the household, it just, like, created my own discipline, I guess.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was he an emotional man?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Not, no. No emotion. I've never seen him cry.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Has he ever said, "I love you"?
- GHGeorge Heaton
To me? I don't know. Maybe as a young kid, but not, not recently, no.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about your mum?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Very supportive. She used to sit on the end of my bed every night and be like, "George, you've gotta make it, you've gotta carry your brother and sister. Like, you've got, you've got to carry this family on." Which was quite a hard thing to take in when I was young. Um, but she just, like, affirmed that every single day, and, like, she loved the work I did and the art that I did. And she would try and express that to all her friends and talk about me a lot, and it was always, like, something that was kind of, um... It kind of pushed me a bit, you know? Gave me, like, words of, words of affirmation, I guess, confidence.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was that, was her saying that, like, a frequent thing? I'm just trying to figure out why she
- 4:37 – 5:04
What was your brother Mike like?
- SBSteven Bartlett
would say that to you versus your siblings. Is presumably because you're, you're the oldest.
- GHGeorge Heaton
No, I was-
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, you are the oldest.
- GHGeorge Heaton
... I was the middle child.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Aye, your brother's older.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Um, but Mike kind of... He was very within himself as a, as a, as a younger kid, and, um, didn't come out much, and he just did his own thing. Whereas I would express myself a little bit more than him in, within the family. And I think my mum saw that as a way that I could be the, the carrier of whatever that boat was later down in life.
- 5:04 – 5:28
What did your parents do for a living?
- GHGeorge Heaton
- SBSteven Bartlett
And your parents, what did they do? So your dad was...
- GHGeorge Heaton
My dad sold mini buses. So him and his, his dad were in business. So that was kind of like me and my brother. And like me and my brother, they looked the same, they did the same thing, like, had the same demeanor, same attitude to everything. And I think that's why me and my brother went into business, 'cause we saw that the family had been able to do that, um, prior.
- 5:28 – 6:12
Did you always grow up wanting to be in fashion?
- GHGeorge Heaton
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you have any idea when you were a young man, like 12, 13, 14, that you would be in this industry?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, I did, to be fair. Looking back at it, uh, I had sensitive skin as a kid. And anything that fit me wrong or, like, itched me, or like, like a back neck label or the way a pant fit would irritate me so much that I'd take it to my gran's. And she was a tailor, so she would taper things and take necks out of things, and she would make sure I knew what the composition was before buying garments. And when I look back at it now, I realize that that...... in that particular so young kind of stemmed into how I've built the brand and what it stands for and the quality and everything like that.
- 6:12 – 7:09
The influence your older brother had on you
- GHGeorge Heaton
- SBSteven Bartlett
And Michael, I've- I met Michael before when the first time we had you on the podcast, I think you had eight employees, and Michael was there as well.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And he comes across as a bit of a genius.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But a bit of a introverted genius. What was the difference in your skillset? 'Cause you both went and studied like art, well-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... graphic design. What was the difference in your skillset?
- GHGeorge Heaton
There wasn't really one. He was just better than me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Better than me at art, definitely. And 'cause he was my big brother, I looked up to him. So like through primary school, like he was into like heavy metal and rock, and like California and surf and skate, and that wasn't really a particular thing in Bolton. Like everyone was in tracksuits and had shaved heads and TNs and smoked on the corner. We were skating down these cobbley roads with long hair and like big DC shoes on and skinny jeans. And I- I just wanted to be him, like until like early 20s. Like he was, he was my idol really.
- 7:09 – 9:38
When was the idea of Represent born?
- GHGeorge Heaton
- SBSteven Bartlett
And when did, um, when did you make the decision to apply your artistic skills to clothing?
- GHGeorge Heaton
College. So we had a project where we had to make, we had to make something of our art that could sell. And Mike had- Mike was two years ahead of me so he'd already done the same course that I was on, and he'd done like a little gallery where people would buy his drawings. And I looked at that, and I looked at my dad, and my dad wanted us to come into the business at the time, and the last thing I wanted to do was that. But also, I didn't wanna sit and wait around all my life to sell a painting for $40,000. Um, and I remember going into the class, and I remember the teacher telling me the average salary of a graphic designer was 30K, and I'd go home and I'd speak to my dad and I'd be like, "Hold on, if university is gonna cost me 9K a year and the average salary is 40K a year, and like I can't fucking buy myself a Range Rover with that." And I wanted to be like my dad. So I was like, "What, what is it that I can make that I can make money from?" Like everyone wants to be successful, right? There's no denying that like money was such a big thing back then that I wanted, and I was so particular about the clothing, like I said about my gran and taking things in and how we'd adjust all my garments, that there was this, there was this like upbringing of social media. S- Instagram was just starting, and YouTube was just starting, and I- I managed to watch a few videos of like artists like Shepard Fairey who owned Obey, and Nikki Diamonds who owned Diamond Supply, and HUF, and these guys over here on the West Coast that were just selling like T-shirts with graphics on, and I thought, "Why can't we do- we be the British version of that? What have we got to do to do that?" And this college project came up, and I just thought, "Um, I'll give it a go."
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, a second ago you said being a graphic designer wasn't gonna allow you to buy the same car as your dad. Was there- How much was your dr- dad, a driving force behind your sort of, um, your decision-making? And like when I say that, like was there really a motivation to try and beat him, or at least get to where he was?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. An-
- SBSteven Bartlett
A very conscious motivation?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it- Because you thought that would d- make him proud or make yourself proud?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, I thought it'd make the family proud, but as well it was just like no one thought in my family that, or even through my friends or through my mom and dad's friends, whoever was around us, no one thought that we'd ever be anything. No one thought that like our art could sell and we could make money that way, and we could build careers that way. Everyone always expected us, especially my grandad just expected us to go into the family business.
- 9:38 – 10:11
Where did that chip on your shoulder come from?
- GHGeorge Heaton
- SBSteven Bartlett
Having listened to some of your interviews and stuff and gotten to know you, it does feel like there's a bit of a chip on your shoulder, and I'm not necessarily sure who the chip on your shoulder has come from.
- GHGeorge Heaton
I think a lot of it's self-inflicted. I think I just like to have something there to prove something wrong or something right, maybe prove myself right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Comes at a cost though.
- GHGeorge Heaton
It does come at a cost, yeah, but I'm willing to take that cost on.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Are you sure?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. I've- I've been doing it now for 13 years. I'm not gonna stop anytime soon, and like I only feel now that we're just getting started with it, so.
- 10:11 – 12:07
What was his shedding phase like?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, I'm really curious about this early phase, which I kinda call the shedding phase, where an entrepreneur makes the decision that they're gonna do something unusual in the context of their like current social group. And the shedding phase I define as like when your family start thinking you're a bit weird, and you feel the resistance from your family.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then your like boys from school start thinking you think-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you're-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... Richard Branson or whatever, and they start making little comments. Can you recount what your shedding phase was like?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I think that was it. I th- Like a lot of people who I was around just laughed at it. A lot of people just thought it was a joke. And it got to that stage where then it was like, "Oh, it's your dad's business. Your dad s- your dad buys the stock and like, like this is a family business. You guys aren't making this money and whatever," until it gets to a point where it like just completely exceeds what people think that is, and then they seem to come back around, and then they're buying your product, and then they're congratulating you on the drops, and then they're your biggest fans, and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you remember any comments that you heard-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Oh, I heard loads.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... from certain people?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, definitely. I remember there was one where I'd bought this R8, and it was like, I must have been 19 or 20, and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Which is a car, right.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right, yeah, an- an Audi. And, um, I had it parked up in- in my town where I was, and I remember getting a message on Facebook saying, "That car your dad's bought you is parked up here. He's gonna get a ticket on them yellow lines." And I was thinking like, "Come on." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did it make you feel?
- GHGeorge Heaton
It made me wanna go to the next level with everything over and over till- so it'd drown out that noise. So I was like, "Okay, maybe his dad was successful running a, a small business, had a, a nice house and whatever. I wanted to take that to like 100 times that to prove that it wasn't that, I guess."
- 12:07 – 14:37
Starting Represent in 2012
- SBSteven Bartlett
And so after you leave college, well, it's, it's during college, right, when you sort of start-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the business?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that 2012-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... when you first started the business? And then Michael joins you a year later-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... after you started selling T-shirts?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. He was doing a bit of the graphics here and there and, um, I would run them to the... run orders to the post office and then at night we'd sit and draw together and then I'd speak to suppliers in China and stuff like that and it just, it just rolled on for the three years that I was at university.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was that first year like, that first year in business?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Uh, from what I can remember, it wasn't really business. It was just going to the back garden where my dad's shed was, speak to some suppliers in China, go to university, complete my, whatever it was I was doing there, come back, pack orders, speak to customers, do it all again every single day for, like, the first three years.
- SBSteven Bartlett
H- how big was the business in the first year?
- GHGeorge Heaton
It probably turned over about 10,000.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Pounds?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about the second year?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Um, maybe like 50K. I think the third year is when we decided to actually make it a limited company and get an accountant.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And how much did you do in the third year, roughly?
- GHGeorge Heaton
In terms of revenue, I can't remember. I think it was around half a mil.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Because I remember going to the accountants and we, we did all this, um... We literally, like, tore the business apart and rebuilt it, and he said to us at the end of this thing, like, "If you've got 100 grand in the bank, you should carry on with it. If not, you've spent three years just, like, doing nothing and it's going nowhere." And, uh, luckily we had way more than that in the bank and it was like, "Okay, let's, let's do this for real."
- SBSteven Bartlett
You spent two years, s- you know, and then by the end of the second year you're generating 50K, which is like not enough really to pay yourself a salary-
- GHGeorge Heaton
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... whilst covering costs of the business.
- GHGeorge Heaton
No. I didn't take a salary for seven or eight years.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, uh, surely at that point people are... around you are telling you that you're an idiot, and they've got quite good evidence-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to suggest that you're actually wasting your time.
- GHGeorge Heaton
But I, I never had... never had a big doubt that it wouldn't work. I've had a lot of doubts, but never had a doubt that it wouldn't work, and I knew that I would do everything I could to make sure it worked.
- 14:37 – 17:04
Why don't people start?
- GHGeorge Heaton
it really.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why don't people start? And I say that bec- you know, uh, in hindsight now you're going to understand, looking back at your own work, the quality of it-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... what you went through, and you probably have a pretty good idea on why people just don't start, and you must get so many DMs from people that haven't an idea or-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... a fashion idea or anything. Why don't they start?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I think it's that pressure of failure. The, the, the f- the feeling of doubt, like, the, and it as well wasting time. If they've got a family or they've got a job where it's full-time, then to start something else on the side when they've got to see to the family or the girlfriend or the wife or whatever it is, like, you don't have much time to go and do something else that you then hope will eventually in the future take off or become successful. And it takes so long. Like, it does take... I, I know it's... a lot of people say it takes 10 years to become an overnight success, and I think that's true.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You s- you spent almost four years, um, from 2012 til... I guess, no, two years, 2012 til about 2015-ish, kind of just effectively messing around.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, messing around really. Messing around. A lot of messing around.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Learning.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Learning, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's probably a better-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... better use of words.
- GHGeorge Heaton
And enjoying it as well. Like, me and my friends would sit in my dad's shed, like, all night just figuring out products and things that we wanted to do and where we could take the brand. And I'd love to go back to them times 'cause they were great. And we had nothing and no one was really watching us but we thought everyone was watching us and we thought it was the next big fucking powerhouse of a brand. Um, so yeah, it was, it was fun. Like, I don't re- I don't regret any of it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know what? Putting these two questions together about, like, why people don't start and also those three years where you weren't really making any, any money-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, and you're in the shed, in your gra- in your dad's house, why didn't you quit? Because, a- as I said a second ago, there must have been so much force telling you to go and get a real job.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But w-why didn't you quit?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I think it just leads back to, again, proving people wrong and proving myself right. And, like, the only other option I had was to go and work for my dad and I didn't wanna do that 'cause I'd done that all my teens and I hated it. I hated cleaning mini buses and ripping stickers off the sides of windows and going to auctions and bidding on cars and stuff. Like, that wasn't me, and that was the only other option I had so it was like, "This is it. This all, all or nothing really."
- 17:04 – 17:49
How do you feel now about the old products you used to make in the shed?
- GHGeorge Heaton
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you look back at the, uh, products that you made in that shed, how do you feel about them?
- GHGeorge Heaton
There was a few great ones and a few (laughs) absolutely terrible ones. I remember the first collection I, I moved to China because originally I would buy stock in from America, print it in the UK, and, like, make zero profit on it but it was great and it felt great. And then eventually we decided, like, let's try and make some profit on a, on a collection and I remember this collection coming back after a few months and, like, all the fits were wrong and the fabrics were wrong and I, I just cried on my mom's floor for, like, hours that night. Um, so there was, there was a lot of really rough times as well as a lot of fun. But it was all just, like, figuring out different things and, like, learning how to do e- every single job within that business.
- 17:49 – 18:35
What do you say to people who want to start their business?
- GHGeorge Heaton
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause, you know, if I'm a young fashion designer or a young creative and I l- look at your work now-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I look at the product that Reprezent's putting out now, it's easy to see how one might be put off from starting-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because I look at your stuff, I go, "Jesus Christ," like I-
- GHGeorge Heaton
You can't compete with it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You can't compete with that.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, that's more than 10 years of, like-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... mastery so I'm just not gonna bother starting.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What, what do you say to those people?
- GHGeorge Heaton
... and say, "Look, you gotta put the work in. It's gonna be 10 years." Like regardless of what industry it is or what product you're making, like I wouldn't even think about the next two to three years. I'd think about 10 years, like y- th- that's the mindset you've gotta have, and it's not gonna be easy, and it's not gonna be fun. But you just gotta do everything you can to make it work.
- 18:35 – 19:48
Trying to scale the business
- GHGeorge Heaton
- SBSteven Bartlett
So the, the brand kind of scales up to what sort of revenue number from 2- 2012 up to 2018?
- GHGeorge Heaton
We built it up to like six to seven mil.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GHGeorge Heaton
So like 2015, '16, '17, it was just flat at like six, seven mil. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Year over year?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. And we thought that was the ceiling and thought... At the time, as our young selves with not much knowledge and no real foot in the industry, like we thought that we were at the ceiling of what Reprezent was. And then, that's when the realization came that like if we carry on doing what we're doing, it's not gonna work and this brand will fail.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was the advice you needed at that point you didn't get?
- GHGeorge Heaton
(sighs) Um, definitely didn't get the advice, but it was to just completely restart, refocus, go again, build a new team, and, and go into what we already knew that w- was there waiting for us. We knew what, what we were capable of. We just weren't doing it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What weren't you doing?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Focusing on our consumer, asking them what they wanted, speaking to them, being within the community of what Reprezent was, and giving them what they wanted.
- 19:48 – 25:51
Hiring people
- GHGeorge Heaton
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you say the, the, the point about team-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, you said rebuild a new team. When you started the brand, who d- who were you hiring?
- GHGeorge Heaton
All my friends. (laughs) I hired all my friends, all my close friends 'cause I wanted to enjoy it, and I didn't know a thing about hiring people. I didn't wanna interview people and bring them into my dad's garden shed. So up until we had a unit, like it was just me and my friends, and we were all just doing 50 jobs each. No one had a title. No one knew what was going on. Um, and it didn't work. But now, we're at such a level where there's 100 people in the business. Two of those friends that came in right at the start are still in the business and are very high up in the business and have amazing, successful lives. So half worked and half didn't.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you say it didn't work, what does that mean in reality?
- GHGeorge Heaton
It means that like w- uh, I guess it's all not my fault as such, but it's all... It's... I, I brought people into the brand that shouldn't have been in fashion or shouldn't have been doing what I'd asked them to do, or like their career didn't go the, the way that it should've gone because we were just plateauing at this base of like a, a... quite a boring fashion brand at the time, and like th- we had to split up, and we had to regroup and start again. And the ones that stayed have now stayed f- forever, which is insane, and the ones that left, they've, they've carried on with their lives.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What have you learned about, um, hiring? Again, when I say the advice that you sh- you wish you'd gotten at the time before you'd hired a single person that you might give if you could speak to George at 18 years old, and you could give him hiring advice on how to pick people, what would you say?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Hire fast, fire faster.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting.
- GHGeorge Heaton
I spent a lot of years where I didn't hire people because I didn't think they would fit into the brand. And even though they don't seem a certain way, or they're into the same brands that I'm into, or they follow this kind of, um, industry that we're in, whether it's streetwear or luxury or high fashion, like there is still unbelievable people that can do amazing things way better than what I can do in all levels of business that don't look like they should be or don't seem like they would. Um, so just like realizing that back, back then would've really helped the business grow.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think sometimes like young founders, um... I remem- just thinking back on my own experience, we're sometimes scared to hire people that are like more experienced than we are because how are we gonna manage them and all those kinda concerns. And also, why would they wanna come here? We're like, d-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know what I mean?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Why would they wanna come here was a massive thing for me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. Uh, why would anyon- why would someone wanna come to a smaller brand than what they were at? Um, and especially in that time when it wasn't growing 'cause it's not... You don't wanna go into a company that's not growing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GHGeorge Heaton
But like now, it's completely different. The, the whole ecosystem that we've built, and who wants to come into the brand, and like the way the brand is growing, it's now like we have the abundance of everyone wanting to join the brand. So it's g- it's, there's now like it's hard to pick and choose who we bring into the brand rather than going out there and looking for them and trying to get them into the brand. You know what I mean?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. It's so like catch-22. You know, I have a lot of Dragon's Den investments-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and these are typically early stage companies.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They're often quite young, and I sit with them all the time, and I s- I talk to them about this paradox of, um... There's... It's a kind of multifaceted thing. They are a very young team, very inexperienced. They have small budgets-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... sm- relatively small budgets. So they're thinking, "We can't pay an exceptional, really experienced person because a £100,000 salary is so much for us." And because they don't... And also, the stuff you said about like, "Why would anyone wanna come work in this, like shed?"
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because of that, they never grow-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... to be able to pay for those people, t- to be able to create an environment where exceptional people would come.
- 25:51 – 26:44
How do people get the answers they need to take them to the next level?
- GHGeorge Heaton
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you don't know what you don't know. So how do you go-
- GHGeorge Heaton
You don't know what you don't know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How... Again, if you could, like, go back, 'cause there's so many young kids that are gonna be looking up to you thinking, "Okay, George, I get it. There's lots of things that I don't know. Where do I go to find the answers? What's the best way to go f- to find these answers that are gonna help me go to the next level?"
- GHGeorge Heaton
I think you gotta research now. I think everyone's very explicitly authentic online. Like, if they wanna be the next George Heaton, you can scroll down my Instagram for the last 10 years and see exactly what I've done and where I've been and how I've done it, who we've done it with. Or you can go on the YouTube channel and backload a documentary that we did three years ago that shows the last 10 years. And I know you do it with, um, The Diary of a CEO, behin- behind the scenes as well. So the- people are willing as well to, like, give you advice. I give people advice on social media all the
- 26:44 – 29:05
What made you step out of the CEO position and hire a CEO?
- GHGeorge Heaton
time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But that decision then, to bring in that CEO, where did that information come from?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I spent a good couple years just really, like, rebuilding myself when that, when that plateau happened. Um, there was like 18 months to two years where it was just before COVID started, and I wanted to just, like, really build myself up into someone that I, I wasn't at that time, but I wanted to be.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why? What was going on in your world?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I, I felt like I was stuck, and like, like I said, we, we had limited beliefs. We didn't know where to go and what to do. It was like, how do I then figure that out? If I've not got a mentor or someone telling me which way to go with it, I've gotta do it myself. So it was like read every single ha- self-help book, look into every single fashion show, figure out, like, what it is we wanna do and where we wanna go with this brand and how we're gonna build it up, but also with ourselves.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Was this the period in 2018 where you said you lost the motivation for the business?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, just before that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Take me into th- that period of your life. If I'm a, if I'm a fly on the wall, what do I see in, in your world at that time where you were, like, not excited about it?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Not excited about it because we were getting a lot of pushback from press, and like we were trying to do runway shows, and no stores wanted to buy us, and our price points weren't right, and the way we were taking the design wasn't right. And that was, like, painful because it was a passion for us. It was our love. So, like, that negative feedback was, like, kind of painful at the time, but we used it as, like, a reset button. And I looked at myself as well at the same time, and like, I wasn't putting everything into the brand. I wasn't going, like, full on with it. I was messing around and, like, enjoying my life as well. 'Cause we were making money at that time, like more than what we should have been doing in, in our early 20s. So we were fucking around a lot, and I'm not gonna sit here and lie. Like, we were, we didn't know what we were doing, and we were messing about. And it just got to a point where, like, that year became unprofitable. And to, for me to sit there and think, "Fuck," like, "I've done this for the past seven or eight years, and now it's not making money," that was like, that was the thing that then just, that was the catalyst that just changed everything. I just took a real good hard look at what we are and who we were and just
- 29:05 – 30:53
A phase where you didn't like yourself
- GHGeorge Heaton
changed it all.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about you on a, on a personal level at that, at that time? You said you weren't happy with yourself.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Mm-hmm. Didn't like, I hated the way I looked. I hated the way I came across on social media. I was very shy, very unconfident, um, and like, e- terrible at hiring people and just didn't, like had, not anger issues but was always angry, was always negative. Always had, like, this pessimistic view of everything. Even the weather would piss me off, um, for a lo- for a long time. And I just remember reading a few books and thinking like, "Why am I this way, and how do I change myself?" Even- And like being the artist, I even redrew how I wanted to look, and it was like every single day now I've gotta work on being that guy. Who is, who is George Heaton that I want him to be, not who I am now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You actually drew...
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... an a- a picture?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, I used to look back at it all the time and just think, "This, this is..." I wanted to recreate myself and recreate the brand.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was the base you were starting from at that point, and how old were you at this point?
- GHGeorge Heaton
26. I think I was 25, 26. I just like had a, I had a unhealthy relationship with the way I worked and even the food I ate, and like I wasn't, I wasn't healthy. I wasn't doing well. Didn't look great, like didn't, didn't feel myself. Like, I didn't wanna look at myself in the mirror. Um...
- SBSteven Bartlett
You didn't wanna look at yourself in the mirror?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. 'Cause I didn't like who I'd become and like the- I didn't like what the brand had become either, and the brand was my life, so it was like, "This all needs to change."
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you say you didn't want to look at yourself in the mirror, do you actually mean that? Are you saying that as, like, a figure of speech?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I guess a figure of speech. But as well, like, realizing that, uh, that I wanted to change a lot, so then when, when you do want to change then you don't like the way you are.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How, how did
- 30:53 – 33:56
How did you know you wanted to change?
- SBSteven Bartlett
you know you wanted to change? I mean, that sounds like an int- like a slightly peculiar question, but I always think about what it takes for someone to have one of those moments in their life where they go-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... "Do you know what? Enough is enough."
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And sometimes... I've always, like, pondered, I think I've said it a few times on this show, like, do people have to reach a certain rock bottom in their lives before they go-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... "Do you know what?"
- GHGeorge Heaton
100%. And I see this with people now that, um, we inspire with TwoFourSeven or who will send me a DM and say, "Look, you've changed my life through this or that." The, I think the, like, the best view of heaven is from hell, right? I think you've got to get to the bottom of that mountain to start reclimbing it. I think if you just sit around in the middle somewhere and, and life's just, it is what it is, that was what I was going through. Um, and like, I'd, I had a girlfriend and we'd split up, and that was terrible. And yeah, the brand wasn't doing well. I got told it was unprofitable. And like, I was just in this fucking w- what for me was rock bottom, and I know it doesn't sound bad f- compared to a lot of other people's lives. I understand that. But for me, for where I'd been on the trajectory that I thought I was on, it was rock bottom. So that was, that was like the reset.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So you drew a picture of yourself and how you wanted to look.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you write anything about who you wanted to be in terms of values, or...
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've got a best friend who's done a very similar transformation, and they literally wrote down, like, a set of principles, and it's-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... it's in the notes of their phone. It's my friend Anthony. And he went from being in a place in his life where he also figuratively couldn't look himself in the mirror, dropped alcohol, hit the gym, and has turned it around. And he, he has, almost has this, like, ten commandments in his-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the notes of his phone.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You did something similar?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Exactly the same, and I still have them, they pop up every morning, like reminders on my phone. Um, I found this guy called Andy Frisella and he had a book called, um, 75 Hard, and it was like a mental toughness challenge, but it also included a lot of working out in there. And it was like, "No alcohol, drink this much water, read this much of a book, and just do it every single day for 75 days. Write down five things you're gonna do that day." And I did that, and I started doing it, and I started seeing, like, these crazy results in my life, just with everything. Just the way I could structure my day and knowing that, like, I had to put two workouts into a day, one had to be outside, one had to be inside, so structured the rest of the day around that. And then started learning how to plan my day out better and where the time was where I could go and do these other things. And, like, every night I would read 10 pages of a book, whichever book that was, from all around holiday books and Robert Greene and everything like that. So I was learning all these things whilst I was also doing this mental toughness challenge, and it was like a 75-day thing. And I remember getting to, uh, getting to the end of it and just thinking, "Fuck, like, I'm..." I looked at myself then and I was like, "Okay, I can see the change." And you know when you can see change, that's when you, like, really go into it. You start getting obsessed when you see whether it's success or, like, your fitness levels go up or just the way your energy levels are every day and just figuring out that, like, these little indicators are, are changing the way I am.
- 33:56 – 40:29
Creating those next steps for the business?
- GHGeorge Heaton
And then at the same time, we were really working on the business, so the business was starting to see a bit more success. And that whole thing, the cadence of that just kept rolling and rolling and rolling. And I guess, uh, whether it's obsession or addiction, I got addicted to it. And, like, there couldn't be a day go by where I wouldn't work out or I wouldn't eat the exact, the calories that I needed to eat, or I wouldn't sleep the exact, like... And I needed to get the exact amount of sleep that I wanted. And it just completely changed, like, the way I looked and the, like, my, my levels of fitness and cardiovascular and strength and everything like that just went through the roof.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause people will look at you now and think that... You know, they'll see you getting up at, I don't know, 5:00 AM in the morning and going for like a 20-mile run, um, and hitting the gym later that evening, running a business, doing all of these things, being super productive, and they'll probably think, "He was just born with something that I don't have."
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, "He's just got this level of motivation-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... probably came in his DNA, that I don't have."
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, and a lot of people do say that, and a lot of people think that, think it's genetics or they think it's steroids and stuff like that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Or they'll just think that you're, like, wired in a way-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... from birth.
- GHGeorge Heaton
And I used to think that as well back when I was overweight and unhealthy and, like, I'd look at people on Instagram and be like, "Yep, genetics, whatever. Yep, he's on steroids. I can't look like that. I've got a business to run." Like you would, you dismiss everything, but it's not. And once you start doing it yourself and you see those little gains and you, you get into it, then you can, you can really change.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is the starting point?
- GHGeorge Heaton
One step at a time, whether it's 10,000 steps or doing even a 20-minute workout, that's all people need to do to change. Because you'll start seeing results regardless of what position you're in right now. If you can just keep increasing incrementally what you're doing in terms of fitness or your business or however, like your sleep, whatever it is that you feel is not right, you'll see the change over time. It comes... And it takes a long time. It takes a really long time, but it, it happens.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's difficult to, it's difficult to believe, I guess, for some people because they, they kinda, they see the mountain in front of them and you're telling them, "Listen, it's just one step at a time up that mountain."
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But they're just looking at the top of the mountain, going, "Jesus Christ, that's a long way away."
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the thought that the, the first steps to take are small ones doesn't, almo- almost doesn't seem believable.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, and, and, look, same with me. Like, I would go head-on into something thinking that you could just go out there and run a marathon within a week. And people do that, and it, and it, it crushes you, and, and then you have to start again. But it's just about finding that rhythm of, like, what you enjoy and, and just going and just doing it and not, not really taking your foot off the gas once you start doing it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So jumping back to 2018 then, so the business is stagnant during that period of time, and you go on this process of reinventing yourself. Um, you also go on the process of reinventing the business.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What does that mean? How did you reinvent the business?
- GHGeorge Heaton
We stripped back all the wholesale that we, that we were doing, and we focused on the D2C. So, we went into this weekly drop thing. And it was just around, it was just before, like, COVID happened and James, who is a chief product officer, was, like, super keen on moving our production out to Portugal. It was currently in the UK and Italy, and it was making no money. And I had so many arguments with him about it and, like, hated this, this way of thinking that he was doing and, like, what he wanted to do with the business. And it got to, like, we were, we had a massive heated argument about it. And it was so right for the business at the time and I just didn't know it because I wasn't acceptance, accepting of, like, changing, changing the way we were working. And I didn't understand that you could go and do this other thing and produce in a different way than what we were doing. And, like, full credit to him, he completely changed the whole, like, margin of what we were doing. Um, so James was doing that for, like, nine months straight. And Mike was doing all these new graphics that was gonna change the way the brand looked. And then I w-, I came out to LA a few times and found these T-shirts that I really loved and these cargo pants that I loved, and then we started putting all these three things together through, through all of us. And then I have a guy called Stefan who was doing all the website maintenance and everything like that. And we changed the way the website looked and the whole vision of the brand, and we deleted everything off social media and just, like, restarted, and it just, it started working. And we put, like, 300 T-shirts online and we sold 300 in a minute. And then the next week, Mike did another design, and we'd sold 600 in a minute, and then 900 in a minute, and then it was like, "Fuck, we actually do have a following here." We've gone from doing 10, 15 sales through the day to, like, 1,000 every single Wednesday. 2,000, 3,000, 4,000. And that gave us, like, the, the liquid and also the confidence to then go and create more collections and go back to becoming a real brand again.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Uh, as you were saying that, it made me r- think about how so many people aren't successful in their lives, or aren't as successful as they could possibly be, because they haven't gone out of their own way.
- GHGeorge Heaton
And that was me, a million times over. And just, like, having that open-mindedness and listening to other people and knowing that it's not, you're not right with everything is such a fucking huge thing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's difficult when you're, I think, especially if you're a young CEO, because you're probably already a bit insecure.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like, like, you feel like you should know everything, so you're, like, overcompensating-
- 40:29 – 41:24
Creating a solid company culture
- SBSteven Bartlett
you've created a pretty amazing, um, company culture. You were talking about it there.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How have you done that?
- GHGeorge Heaton
That's, it's not really... I'm, I'm not gonna sit here and take credit for that. Um, I'll take credit for, like, the gym that we have in there and, and the way we, like, everyone works hard, but also, like, my, the CEO that came in, Spenny, just, he's all about people. People over profit every day of the week. Whatever it is, it's people first. So we have such a good, like, group of, group, like, the leadership team he's brought in and, like, everyone who's involved with the business now is just constant, like, transparency and, "Here's where we're going, here's what we're doing, here's what's wrong, here's what's right, we need to focus more on this, we need to do more of this," and just giving them everything that they, they want. And, like, even though it's, yeah, you gotta work hard, you gotta work fucking hard, we're still, like, we're probably the best place to work for that I know of.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Self-awareness.
- 41:24 – 42:42
Self-awareness
- SBSteven Bartlett
I, um, I've spoken to a lot of founders that have been very, very successful, especially out of Europe, and one of the things that they all seem to have in common is at some point in their journey, they developed such a high self-awareness that, as we kind of said, they got out of the way of the business-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and just focused on the thing that they're good at. And that's pretty much what it looks like you're doing now.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. And I hope that's right. And I've seen people do that and get it wrong. But for me, I think it is right. I'm not a businessman and, like, for me to be the CEO of this business that's growing rapidly and has all these people involved with it, like, all I would do is stunt the growth of it. Um, so like you said earlier today, like, there's people that are so much better at things than you and if you can bring them into your business, they can g- they can get on with that stuff and do 10 times better job than you can, and lay the foundations for it to become $500 million or $1 billion brand or $10 billion brand, and you can focus on what you're actually good at.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do you get them to come?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I think, like you said then, like, company culture. Like, you see, if you see "represent" on LinkedIn or something, you, you're gonna look at it and think, "Fuck, I wanna be in there." These guys and girls are getting after it, like, doing gym sessions together at 6:00 AM and they're all out and they're just, they're just enjoying the workplace. Like, but that, that comes
- 42:42 – 46:23
Staying in touch with the business side of things as a creative
- GHGeorge Heaton
from being s- being a successful brand. You can't just do that from the get-go.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GHGeorge Heaton
You can't just build a gym with no money, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GHGeorge Heaton
... so you got to build that level of success, and then you're able to reinvest into the brand rather than into your stock and, and building the actual size of the company.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because this is always the issue that I hear f- y- specifically, like, young founders or early stage entrepreneurs talking about is, "Okay, Steve, I get it. I know we need great people, but how do I persuade great people-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... like Spencer?" It's Sp- Spenny, right?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, Paul Spencer, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Paul Spencer. Um, "How do I get him to come work here-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... when he's working at, like, Puma?" He was at Puma, wasn't he?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, he was at M Puma.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did you get him, how did you get him to come from Puma to Represent?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Built a relationship with him over many years. James was in contact with him for five years, since we first met. And then as the business scaled, he saw what we had, like he saw what me and Mike had together as brothers, and he saw what me and Mike, James and Steph had as, like, a leadership team, and he wanted to be involved with it because he knows that there's no other options for us. It was like, "We, we're building this. There's no ceiling." Like, what is, what is Represent in 10 years, like what can it be? And he says it every day, he's like, "It gives me fucking goosebumps walking in here because there's no, there's no limit to it. Like, we can do everything. If we can spell" sell "sportswear, we can sell vintage T-shirts, and we can sell, uh, we can sell salt. Like it's insane, we can do anything." It's not, it's not really a brand anymore, it's like a lifestyle.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Of all the business decisions that you've made, where does hiring a CEO to run the business and you stepping out of the way rank?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Number one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. My life's just so much better now that he's involved with the business, and there's a lot of weight taken off my shoulders.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's not the first time I've heard this. I think Ben Francis would have said the same.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, I bet.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know, and Julian at Huel said the same. And that putting someone in, in that CEO role where it's both, like, not enjoyable for you as a creative-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... but also it's not good for the business because it's not your skill set.
- GHGeorge Heaton
And, and that, yeah, it wasn't enjoyable for a l- for a long time, and you'd do it because you had to do it. And if I spent six hours in that role of a CEO, to then come out of my room and be like, "Mike, let's go and design this thing," you didn't want to do it. There's no energy. That shit drains your en- if you're a creative, uh, the business side of the thing drains your energy. It absolutely kills you. Even to this day, I'll go into a board meeting, and after 15 minutes, I'm just like, "Oh my God, I'm done." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GHGeorge Heaton
I'm asleep. But I could sit in Mike's room and design for 12 hours straight with him.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How much, as a creative and a, a creative founder, do you have to stay in touch with the business side of things, though? Like you spoke about the boardroom.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you still kind of need to know what's going on?
- 46:23 – 50:38
The letter that nearly ended Represent
- SBSteven Bartlett
- GHGeorge Heaton
Oh. Um, I remember we got a letter from a company also called Represent in Europe telling us that, uh, we were, we, we were basically done. And I, yeah, that was, that was the worst day in the business, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What did the letter say?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Just said like that they owned the trademark in Europe and we were, they were just going to take us for everything we had. We couldn't carry on trading.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They wanted all of your money?
- GHGeorge Heaton
E- more than what we had. And that, that like, that was in that same period, that 2018 to '20, where we were just like every day we were waiting for responses, and every day it was like waking up and thinking, "Fuck," like, "Is it all over today? Is it all over tomorrow? Can we do what we want to do? Is this even our business anymore? Do we even own what we're doing?" And like there was, there was only really me, Mike and James that knew about this that was going on, because I didn't want to put it n- out to anyone. Didn't want anyone in the business to know, like, this was happening, not even my family. Um, and it really fucking, like, restricted us with everything we did, every decision we made, every garment we sold. Um, so that, that, that was, that was included in that really dark period.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They presumably owned the trademark that you were using. So you had called yourself Represent-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... but someone else owned the trademark for Europe?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you didn't realize that at the time?
- GHGeorge Heaton
We thought we owned it, um, because we had the UK IP and all over the rest of the world and there was this dormant... we thought it was dormant, but apparently it was selling clothing in Section 25 or whatever.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Section 25 is like the clothing category of a trademark?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- GHGeorge Heaton
And at first we thought, "All right, we, we can, we'll, we'll be able to figure this out, let's get some lawyers and we'll go into it in a certain way and approach it like this," and it was just constantly like, "No, no, no," when like w-
- SBSteven Bartlett
They weren't willing to...
- GHGeorge Heaton
Nothing. And that was like, that was the devil that woke you up at every night. Um, but I used that as like, I guess again, it's that chip on the shoulder thing. I kind of used it as that, and I realized that like we had to get, we had to...... do so much and make so much of the brand that we didn't wanna give it up. And that when it, when the time came to it and he gave in and he wanted t- to take money, we had the money to be able to do it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
This sort of dark period between 2018 and sort of 2020, was ... did that cause it, or was that just on top of it?
- GHGeorge Heaton
That was like on ... that was the icing on the cake. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right. So the business is stagnant, and then you get this letter through.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Someone wants to take everything you have.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Mm-hmm. And we spent so many months, like, just sat in a back office just figuring out what we're gonna re-call the brand, how we're gonna re-brand it, and, like, what it meant if it was not Represent anymore. And we wouldn't ... we couldn't post anything on social media, so it was like, "We can't show this guy that the brand does well, or we're making any money, because then he'll want more and he'll start seeing all these other things." And we just ... we were so in our own heads about it, and, like, all the advice from lawyers was just ... just always bad news. Um, but eventually, we got him to come up, come up with a figure that he wanted for it, and, uh, I remember it was ... I think it was March 2020, we ended up, like, signing and getting, getting our name back.
- SBSteven Bartlett
He wanted millions?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, you said the lawyers were giving you bad news. What were they saying?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Just like, they wouldn't respond for three months.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The lawyers?
- GHGeorge Heaton
No, no, no, not the lawyers, his lawyers.
- 50:38 – 53:39
Company lawsuit
- SBSteven Bartlett
cloud, what does the dark cloud feel like? Fly on the wall again.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. Just you not being able to be yourself with everything you do. Every decision you make, whether it's buying a fucking sandwich from the shop. It's like, that's not your money to buy that sandwich, 'cause someone else owns the name while you're making that money. It'd like, get you like that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did it interfere with your sleep, your mental health?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Everything. Um, but also ... but like I said earlier, it also became this driving force, where, like, I'd use it as a thing, where it was like ... I know this probably sounds so stupid, but, like, I'd just got started running in 2020, and I was like, "I'm gonna go o- out and run 15K. And if I stop, that's, like, him coming for us." You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GHGeorge Heaton
It was like, "I have to do this. I have to win at everything we do, whether it's just a run, or it's a design selling, or whatever it is. Like, you cannot stop now."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Can't be easy going through that with your brother as well, because you're gonna both be somewhat protective of each other, I imagine.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And if there's that dark cloud hanging over both of you at the same time, it's ... yeah.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. It, it, it ruined both of us. It ruined his ... the way he designed and an- ... yeah, everything.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then, so eventually you get a breakthrough, and this guy agrees to a figure. And at the time, like, uh, you know, millions and millions of pounds. If you're making six or seven million in the business, and, and you're saying it's not really profitable, I'm guessing the money wasn't in the bank to send this guy millions of pounds.
- GHGeorge Heaton
No, but the deal went through in 2020, when we were really, like, pushing forward and doing everything we could, so that when that thing happened, we had enough money for it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How'd you feel about him, this guy that sent you that letter?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Up until then, just hate, just absolute hate. Because we were a bunch of young guys that were trying to build this business, and we had 20 employees at the time that we'd probably have to lay off, and we'd lose all the money and we'd be in debt for the rest of our lives, or whatever, just because he decided that he wanted to use that name to sell nothing, basically. Wasn't selling anything. Um, so yeah, up until that day, I was, I was really upset about it. (laughs) But after it, I kind of just realized that it is what it is, and that's how things go. And in ... when I look back at it now, it really fucking catapulted the business, 'cause that's when we came out of our shell, and that's when we started really, like, building this brand into a lifestyle, and not just T-shirts on the floor on an Instagram page.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did your parents know-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that you were going through that?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah, a little bit.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How did they deal-
- GHGeorge Heaton
I didn't tell them the full extent, but ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Just 'cause I didn't want ... I don't like putting pressure on other people, um, especially when it's not going to affect their lives as such, at the time. Um, but yeah, we would go to my mom and dad's every weekend, and like, it would always be a subject that came up. "Has he replied yet? Has he responded?" Like, "Have you heard anything?" It's just like ... yeah. It fucked us.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How, how'd you, how'd
- 53:39 – 55:55
What his experience of it was at that time
- SBSteven Bartlett
you deal with that? 'Cause you're a young, you're a young guy. I remember the first time in business where I experienced anxiety. Um, I, I thought anxiety was something that happens to other people.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
And then I remember the day very clearly, where I had to let the managing director in our New York office go. I had to fire him.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I was sat in my apartment in Manchester, thinking about that flight tomorrow, where I, I'd asked this person to come and meet me for a coffee. And I was just, like, riddled with anxiety-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Really? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... for the first time ever. I was like, "This is, this is what people talk about when they're talking about mental health. This is it."
- GHGeorge Heaton
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
"It's happening to me." (laughs) I, I'm invincible, but it's, it's suddenly happening, happening to me.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, obviously, uh, as it always goes, it was never ... it wasn't as bad as I imagined.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But it's the imagination that haunts as well.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. Imagination's 95% of it, isn't it?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you experienced that before?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Inhales ] Um, mental health ... I always struggle when people ask me about this, 'cause, no, not really. Um, I've always been pretty solid on where I wanna go, who I wanna be, what I wanna do, and just stuck to a plan. Um, anxiety, that, that thing, that period, yeah, that caused me anxiety. But not, not to an extent where it was, like, crippling.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Um-... but, like, I kind of, now, I kind of enjoy the, the bits of anxiety I get. Because you learn from it, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Like, you going into that meeting and telling him, "You're gonna get fired," once that's done, you have that relief, and then you know next time you do it, this is how it goes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GHGeorge Heaton
So you lose that 95% of anxiety that happens before it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Or you lose a little bit of it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, you, you will.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Like I s- I get really anxious going onto podcasts.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Like, in the past few days I've been really anxious coming on here.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GHGeorge Heaton
Um, and I've done 100 of them before.
- 55:55 – 58:09
What makes Represent special?
- SBSteven Bartlett
you know, you've gone through a bit of a transition, as you said. You were, the brand was stagnant at one point, and then it took off again when you made a lot of sort of operational changes, and sort of changes to the business model.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But at the heart of the brand, there was always something special. You know?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So you can be at six million revenue, and I remember back when I first discovered Represent. And for anyone that doesn't know, it's basically the only thing I wear. So, like, if you ever see me out, or on stage, or whatever, I'm wearing Represent head to toe. I mean, it's, it's, I wear this, I, I usually don't wear this on the podcast, but when I'm not on the podcast, it's the only thing I'm wearing. And the, the 247 pants that you made are the only pants that I wear. Everyone knows that. Like, ev- you know, I don't actually have another pair of, of pants.
- GHGeorge Heaton
I love that. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like that's all I wear. Um, because there's something, there was, when I discovered the brand, there was always something special about it. And it's hard to explain, y- right? And ...
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... when, when you observe the brand it's clearly turned into a bit of a cult.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
A good cult, no one's getting murdered. It's a good cult.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But what is that thing that the brand always had?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Oh, that's hard. That's a hard question.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's really hard.
- GHGeorge Heaton
I think it's the fact that it's, like, two brothers that are from Manchester that don't really belong in fashion, have come up and done this really cool thing where they're proving that we don't need to just follow the rule book, and we can do whatever we wanna do, and sell whatever we wanna sell. And, like, it's still, even though it's a huge brand now, it's still like a small thing where, like, the owner's club for existence, like ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Which is like one range within it.
- GHGeorge Heaton
One range within it, where, like, you see someone else wearing an owner's club hoodie, like, you see them two guys nod at each other, and it's like, yeah, you're part of something. Like, we've kind of built this community that is, it stems from the people that are in the business, but it's so much bigger, and it's on a global scale, but it's still, like, pretty small. And it's ju- it's like a, it's, it's a family business, right? It's run by two brothers, and everyone within the business feels like family. And when you buy a piece of that product, we're giving them way more than what they expect. Like, uh, my, one of my main things is, like, quality. And I want the customer to think, "Hmm, I follow these guys, it's kinda cool, I might try a hoodie," and they get way more than they expect, and that's when, like, they become part of that cult. And ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're exceeding their expectations for the brand.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Exceeding their expectations way more than what they thought it would.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But for you to
- 58:09 – 1:00:08
What is it about Represent that we don't see?
- SBSteven Bartlett
exceed my expectations, there must be something going on in the office ...
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that isn't going on in the other fashion brands' offices.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what is that thing that's happening at Represent that's probably not happening at your competitor's place?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I think it's my innate desire to just ha- just be the best. However we show up, whether it's a pop-up, whether it's a run club, whether it's the, th- the feel of a garment, or the delivery, saying it's gonna take three days and it takes one day, I think it's just my innate desire to just really be the best at how we show up as a brand.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Exhausting. 'Cause, 'cause the reason why people don't do that is because it's easier to cut the corner.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's easier to send it ...
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... three days.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's easier to not really care about the quality.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Course, but, like, it's so personal to us, and it's all we wear, and it's all we obsess over every day, so it's gotta be good.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do people not see in terms of the effort that goes into the work? Like, between you and your brother Michael, what is, what is it that people don't see?
- GHGeorge Heaton
They don't see Mike enough.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah, yeah.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Like, I'm trying to get him to come out more with li- how, how he does things, and his process, and stuff. But yes, like, with him, you're seeing a guy that is in a room designing all day, every day, with his graphics team. And it's not just him, it's the full scale of the business, the logistics, the production, the garment techs, the guys that are designing all the pr- the actual garments, and, like, the content team. Like, all of them are so bought into it. And everyone we bring up to the office, whether it's a store, or another brand, or whatever, like, they're fucking blown away. No one can believe what's going on in there. And it's this ecosystem that's been built by Spenny and us as leaders, and, um, really, like, bled this mission into everyone that's in there, that, like, we're creating something that's gonna be, like, tr- like, phenomenal, and something that'll last way longer than what we last ourselves.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you've put so much of your heart
- 1:00:08 – 1:02:38
People stealing Represent's designs
- SBSteven Bartlett
into the designs, and then you go on Instagram and someone's copied it ...
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and it's your brother's design that they've copied, and I see, I see people copying your stuff all the time. How is that?
- GHGeorge Heaton
It's good. It means, (laughs) it means the design's good, right? (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
But that's not how you felt the first time. (laughs)
- GHGeorge Heaton
No, at first, you fucking hate it, and ...
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GHGeorge Heaton
... you think people are taking food off your table. And in, in some cases, that's right. Um, and if, if it, it's a brand that's, like, very similar to us, and they're trying to do the same, they're at the same price point as us, and they're, they're, they're in our market, and they're taking market share, then yeah, it's like, they shouldn't be doing that. And it'll bite them in the ass when it comes to it, and at the end of the day, it's who's in it for the long run, right? Copying other people, we used to do it when we, we started. I'm not gonna sit here and say everything was original. We've all been there and done that. I don't think, I don't think when you're at a larger scale you do do it. But then you see brands that are huge, high-luxury fashion brands go and do it to a small designer-... um, so I think it's just, it's just what comes with life. I'm sure you'll get it with podcasts. (laughs) It's the same thing, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- GHGeorge Heaton
You just gotta laugh at it. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah. I've, I've, I've thought about how, you know, my journey with, with people, like, copying what you do or whatever has been on a, it's been on a bit of a journey. And it's difficult, 'cause it's... 'Cause especially when you care so much about something-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... if someone copies it, it f- it really hits you in the heart to some degree.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's like... Especially if you can, like, remember where you came up with that idea and then... But I... But you're right, it's an inevitability, and it's also, um... I always think about how the most important stuff is actually the part of the iceberg under the water.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. And even with design, as I try and get this across to my team, that like, it's not even the design really that counts, it's the whole brand. They're bu- they're not buying into this word.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- GHGeorge Heaton
They're not buying into that. They're buying into this essence as like them becoming part of this club and, like, they're getting this prestige and they're getting the workouts, and they're all part of this whole, like, lifestyle that we're portraying and doing and living and becoming. And-
- SBSteven Bartlett
The most important stuff they can't copy.
- GHGeorge Heaton
No one can copy that. They can copy a logo, but they can't copy, like, what, what you stand for, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm. So you've gone from being a business that was making sort of eight million in 2018 to, as we sit here now, I think last year you did about, about $100 million-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... which is exceptional. Money is now, um, large in your life. You... I'm sure you run the numbers and you go, "Shit, like I'm worth this much money if I sold it for this fucking hour."
- 1:02:38 – 1:04:23
How do you view money now?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GHGeorge Heaton
(laughs) That's what I don't say.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But do you think, uh, do you think about... How do you think about money now?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I'm not gonna lie and sit here and say like, "Oh, money's not an issue. Money's not a, a thing that drives me," 'cause it is. And I think it is with everyone. And l- I'll speak to billionaires and they'll say on camera that they're doing it for this and doing it for that, and then they'll say off camera like, "I wanna get fucking rich," 'cause they wanna be rich. Everyone wants to be rich. There's, there's no negativity that comes with having a lot of money, and I think that society and the way it's perceived now is like not a good thing that you're making a lot of money. Like, I wanna... I want Reprezent to be doing billions. I want everyone in the business to be extremely wealthy. I want the leadership team to be able to have generational wealth. Like, that, that's first and foremost. Like, I, I, like, I love that. Why not?
- SBSteven Bartlett
But if you had a billion pounds now, would you be any happier?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I d- I... I don't measure anything on happiness. Like, I, I'm, I'm happy to sit and design for six hours, or I'm happy to go for a run and, like, absolutely ruin my legs. Like, that makes me happy. I also like doing hard things and rewarding myself, um, and that's ne- that's not really money, but m- like, like I said earlier, money never has a negative impact, I don't think.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But on that point about giving you a billion dollars, if I give you a billion dollars and it's not-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... gonna make you any, any happier, then what's the point in the, the money?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I think it will make me happier.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Of course. Dude, I could... My family would be set forever. All my team would be set forever. Like, that in itself makes me happy. Imagine me being able to turn up to my family and being like, "Okay. Dad, I know you've worked all your life. Here's, here's this.
- 1:04:23 – 1:05:39
What it's been like trying to create a life outside of the business
- GHGeorge Heaton
Enjoy it."
- SBSteven Bartlett
What's the exit strategy, per se?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I don't know anything else, so why would I wanna leave?
- SBSteven Bartlett
How are you gonna get the billion if you don't leave?
- GHGeorge Heaton
We'll do it in profits. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GHGeorge Heaton
Um, no, I don't, I don't want a, I don't want a billion dollars in my bank account. Like, that's, that's not needed. But when you say, "What's the exit strategy?" I'm... Like, when I watched you leave your business, I was always thinking like, you already had the, the podcast lined up and you're already ready to move into this other thing anyway, so it made sense for you. I don't have that, and I also don't want that. Like, I love Reprezent. I wake up and it's Reprezent everything. Everything that I talk to about everyone is the brand. Everything I do is the brand. The w- like, even bringing my fitness into this thing is my brand. And like, I've been able to then build 247 into this brand, which is actually just, like, more of a passion project for me than, um, than building a business. And even all, like, all the athletes that are involved, like, I'm able to suck so much, like, knowledge and worth out of these people personally for myself through the brand. So, me then moving into something else or just selling the business doesn't make sense.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When your identity
- 1:05:39 – 1:09:34
The brand being linked to your self-esteem and identity
- SBSteven Bartlett
and your profession become so intrinsically linked, there's a cost to that, right? Because it must feel... You know, you talked about back, back, b- backs being against the wall, um, r- if the brand were to go down, if the revenue started to plummet and it went out of vogue, or whatever they call it, like it just was no p- not popular anymore, that's linked to your, like, self-esteem and your self-worth and your identity.
- GHGeorge Heaton
100%. And look, there is days where it doesn't do well. There is still days now where we'll launch products and we'll have a nightmare with it. And-
- SBSteven Bartlett
How does that feel, honestly?
- GHGeorge Heaton
It fucks with you. It fucks with your confidence, um, but it also gives you a realization that you're not superhuman and you can't do everything, and not everything you touch turns to gold, and then you gotta go back to the drawing board and do it again.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What does that look like? So that you... Think about the last time it happened.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
H- how did it feel and how long did that feeling last?
- GHGeorge Heaton
It lasts a few days, (sighs) and I'll speak to Spenny about it a lot over them few days, and he'll reassure that something else is gonna take that feeling away from it, and it usually does. And as well, like, it- (sighs) it's not all about small failures along the way, and there's so many exciting things that when something small trips you up a little bit, you've gotta realize like, "No, this is for the long term. Like, the future is this, is in 10 years let's look back at this as like a, a, a learning curve."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Amongst all of this, you've still got to figure out how to have a life.... like a personal life? Because regardless of how intrinsically connected you are to the brand Represent, you're still gonna need to have a life. There's still gonna need to be a George in there somewhere.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. And I never really did for a long time. The past 10 years, I've not really had a life. Not m- nothing outside of Represent, but I've built Represent into my life.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In the moment, I think about, you know, times in my career where I was absolutely all in on something to the point that I was like seven days a week in this fucking office.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
E- even the weekends, when there's n- nothing to do, I'm just in there 'cause I've got no mates. (laughs)
- GHGeorge Heaton
Th- dude, so, that's when I realized, so them Sundays where you'd be sat at home on your own, no one would be messaging you, you can't do anything with people in the business 'cause it's their time off-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GHGeorge Heaton
... with their families, that's when I realized like, "Fuck, I'm like, I'm probably too bought into this."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were you lonely?
- GHGeorge Heaton
(sighs) Alone, but n- never lonely. Never, I never got to the point where I felt lonely. May- maybe a little bit, but like I would, I would distract myself with going working out for five hours, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GHGeorge Heaton
(laughs) Or, or just putting my headphones in and listening to a book and just, just going and coming back. And then the Sunday's done anyway. Sundays were my worst days, because I didn't have anyone to do anything with. Like I'd go and, I'd go and train at a local gym where there was a big community there for the, from 6:00 AM till 9:00 AM, and I'd come home and I'd just sit there and think-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I can't wait til that day.
- GHGeorge Heaton
... "When's it Monday?" (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Isn't that funny?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Text my mum like, "What you up to?" And she'll be like, "Oh, we're actually up in Scotland doing this trip." And I'd be like, "Fuck, I can't even go and see my mum." (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GHGeorge Heaton
So yeah, I guess, I guess there is a little bit of loneliness in there. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. I was lonely, but I didn't know it at the time.
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I only know it in hindsight, 'cause I look back at the way I was living and right, yeah, I was filling the gap, the Sunday, Saturday, some evenings, holidays, even Christmases, like-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- 1:09:34 – 1:11:01
How important is it that you surround yourself with the right people?
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's exactly what I was doing. Relationships, romantic relationships. Let's start with n- non-romantic relationships, in fact. You talk about having to shed people, in terms of like negative influences in order to change your life. Uh, p- people ask me about this all the time, which is-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you know, how important is the environment on personal and professional success?
- GHGeorge Heaton
I think it's everything. I think it, your ecosystem that you build around you is everything. Whether that's the distance it takes you to get to the gym, or the v- people you follow on social media. If you're following Joe from school that's out every night drinking and you're l- watching them stories, even if it's 20 seconds of your day, you're wasting your time watching them stories. And you're also looking at things that are just absolutely pointless to your life. So why don't you go and follow someone who's done what you've, wanna do, or is doing what you wanna do, or who actually inspires you, and just clear out all the bullshit, and you're g- you're gonna be so much more in your, in the right head space if you do something like that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you do that? Did you clear out for him?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Yeah. I did it a lot of times.
- SBSteven Bartlett
If-
- GHGeorge Heaton
Got a lot of bad messages from doing it. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Really?
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In front of Joe? Was it... Okay.
- GHGeorge Heaton
You know, "Why'd you unfollow me?" (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Did you explain it to him?
- GHGeorge Heaton
Um, yeah. Just tell him how it is. Just say, "Look, mate, I don't wanna watch you sit anymore."
Episode duration: 1:42:52
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