The Diary of a CEOGrace Beverley: How To Build A Multi-Million Pound Empire At 24 | E69
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,092 words- 0:00 – 2:14
Intro
- GBGrace Beverley
One of the reasons I stepped back from social media was because I (dramatic music) ... if something can manifest so physically that you're having a fucking seizure-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- GBGrace Beverley
... then you probably need to take this more seriously. And that was, you know, like, that was, that was tough. (dramatic music) And that, for me, is my happiness.
- NANarrator
(Instrumental music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Grace Beverley, CEO and founder of two multi-million dollar companies. One's a fashion empire that's focused on sustainability, and one's a fitness empire comprising a mobile app, a supplements business, and gym equipment. She did all of that while studying and graduating from Oxford University, while growing her online channels to millions and millions of followers, while writing a book, and while dealing with all of the things that every other Gen Z person has to deal with at the age of 23. 23. And on the surface, it's easy to understand while looking in, someone might love to have Grace's life. But as you start to peel back the layers as we do in this conversation, you begin to understand her obsessive attention to detail, the weight of her workload, and the personal cost of her accomplishments. And you see the impact that those things have had on all parts of her life, and it makes you reconsider. Despite all of this, she's persisted. She's stayed true to her values. She's doubled down on the things she loves the most, and she's cut out some of the things that no longer serve her. She's learnt. She's learnt lessons that most of us would take a lifetime to learn, and she's 23. It blows my mind. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
- NANarrator
(Instrumental music)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Grace, I started my business at 18 years old as well. You, um, you faced a different set of challenges. Not only have you started your business at an incredibly young age, or you, or at least you got into business at an incredibly young age, you faced a set of challenges that are even alien to me in the sense that you are a woman in business, um, you are taking on various industries that don't want to be taken on and that really are sort of incumbent monopolies in the space of fast fashion and, and fitness and those things. I guess my first question is, why did you choose business, and
- 2:14 – 13:09
How did you have the confidence to pursue such an uncertain career
- SBSteven Bartlett
what gave you the, what gave you the confidence to pursue a career that's filled with so much uncertainty at such a, a young age?
- GBGrace Beverley
I think, I think people often assume that the first part of it always has to be a kind of, "I'm gonna start this. I'm gonna do this," and I think that mine absolutely wasn't that at all. And I think that that's what often makes me kind of question, you know, the amount of things that have had to fall into place for this to happen. And, of course, you know, there's hard work in that, but there's also so many other things that have had to go right. Um, so for me, you know, as I kind of said, when I was 18 and working, doing an internship at IBM, that's kind of when I started, and I just started doing some, I essentially started monetizing something that should be monetized. So, it was content I was giving away for free, and then I was gonna do lots more of that, and so I decided to monetize it via an e-book. Um, and then, you know, the next year, I did more of that, and then that's, you know, then it started picking up momentum. I started doing different products, and I think that that's, I guess, often not seen in the way that business is represented. It's kind of seen as, like, a eureka moment, then you go and do it, then you put it into action, then you fail once or twice, and then you get it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
And, but it was far more gradual than that, and I think that probably over the past, you know, so it's probably been, so it's been five years since that moment. I'd say four years since the business, it's trendy that it is now, has, um, I guess was founded. Um, and in that time, probably the first two years were incredibly gradual, very much a kind of residual extra income, um, rather than kind of this big, like, "These are my goals. This is gonna happen within this time." Um, so I guess, uh, in that it's been a gradual process, I think the confidence has gathered through that. And a lot of the time, I haven't been confident enough to do that, but have, I guess, just done it anyway. So-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
... you know, when I was, uh, in, when I did kind of my second set of e-books, which was in my first year at university, that was literally because my student loan didn't come through. Like, that was-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GBGrace Beverley
... that was the only reason, so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GBGrace Beverley
... as in, I don't think it was necessarily a confidence thing. I think it was more a, "Okay, like, what are we gonna do in that situation?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GBGrace Beverley
Um, and then putting that together, and then being able to, you know, leverage a platform to be able to monetize that. So, and then from then onwards, obviously, it's been very mindful. It's been very, kind of, strategic, and that's how it's happened. But I guess, I guess the answer is that the confidence hasn't always been there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
And it hasn't always been a kind of, "I'm going to take on this industry." Sure, Starting Taller, that, that was.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GBGrace Beverley
Um, but, but the rest of it, a lot of it has been gradual. A lot of it has been this kind of more just a cumulative-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
... making one decision at a time-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
... um, which is, I guess, what I kind of try and show as well, so that people can know that it doesn't always need to be this one big decision-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
... um, and this one big business that's gonna be the biggest business in the world. It can just be, you know, something you're just doing in that moment.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The world has changed recently over the last 12 months because of the pandemic, and a lot of people have lost their jobs. And so, freelance websites and entrepreneurship has now become more in focus as people are trying to find ways to give themselves a little bit more stability in their income. And when I speak to my friends, that are, you know, your age, 23 years old, right?
- GBGrace Beverley
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
24 next week, the week after, sorry. Um, or who are younger, 18, 19, or even older, um, th- everybody seems to have a business idea.
- GBGrace Beverley
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And I'm sure you're bombarded with DMs like this, right? Everyone has a business idea. Um, there seems to be this barrier between the idea and taking-
- GBGrace Beverley
Execution.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the first step, like making, uh, the Instagram page or, and is the, the barrier between that, is it confidence in your view? What is it?
- GBGrace Beverley
I think it, it's probably specific to the situation, the person, the circumstance. So, you know, I was, when I was at university, if, you know-... uh, I think that there was something that came together to make me do that. But I was also at university in a place and in a time that I could take, I guess, a, a risky decision in terms of how I spend my time, in terms of what I'm putting together. I wasn't... I, I guess I wasn't doing a part-time job at the time that I could have-
- 13:09 – 19:08
How does it feel being discredited for what you've done?
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I knew that we were going to be having this conversation, I, I looked into the general sentiment around your brand, and you've got a huge, hugely engaged, wonderful community of people. Um, you've got this, you know, this true, like I'd call it a fan base or supporters that understand you, and they get you probably because they've followed you for a long time and they followed your vlogs and they, like, know who you are, right? And then, as is the case with pretty much every, um, successful person I've seen, there's also the antithesis of that. There's the opposite. There's people who, as you said, will try and highlight reasons why you maybe don't deserve to be where you are, you don't deserve credit. This is something that pretty- most of the guests I've faced, um, I've sat with have faced to some degree. It's, it's not easy to take, right? Because, um, I know, right, I come from a slightly different background, but I know that irrespective of background, you have to work hard, really, really fucking hard. Be honest with me. How does that feel?
- GBGrace Beverley
I think that, I think it's an important discussion to have, first and foremost. I think that, and I think I'll be the first to say that, and I think a lot of, you know, I spend a lot of time in the book, for example, contextualizing success, because I think it's very important, especially when, you know, you're presented three people on your Instagram feed with, in the same square, and one of them's your mate from school, one of them's y- like, y- your mum, and one of them's Beyoncé-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
... and it's kind of like this democratization of the newsfeed that makes everything look the same, and you don't see the teams, you don't see the privilege, you don't see all of the above, and I think that it's a very important conversation to have. So, to be perfectly honest, I'd be rather people have that conversation, and maybe write off my success based on that. I think that, I think also aside from that, I do think that, you know, a lot of the people who, the people who do follow me and have followed me for a long time-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
... know my worth- work ethic, and they know-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
... that I work hard and they know that, you know, often that's been an unhealthy amount, you know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
I use work as a coping mechanism-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
... so it's been, through the worst times of my life, that's what I know I can do-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
... and that's what I throw myself into, and I think that I'd rather that conversation be had and me be able to know in myself why I've been successful and how I've worked, and I think that, I think that, that that's, you know, I guess, first and foremost that's important, and that's how I'm able to, I guess, push through and be able to do what I do, is because I know why it is. I also know that there have been things that have helped me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
And then, you know, I guess that doesn't matter. I guess the important thing is that we're able to have the conversations and able to, like, I'm able to know as well. In myself, I know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
That's a, a very mature position to take. I've got to be honest. It's a very mature position to take. But I, I'm skeptical as to whether it's always been as easy to take as that, and you've, you know. So talk to me about the processes.
- GBGrace Beverley
Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think that any justified criticism w- or, you know, it might be justified, it might be unjustified. Criticism is hard to take. I don't, I think you can have a mature standpoint towards something and equally, you're, it's still gonna feel like a punch in the stomach.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Of course.
- GBGrace Beverley
And that, and that's, and that's fine, and I think that one of the things that I wouldn't wish, you know, when I think for my children that I wouldn't necessarily want them to be in is I wouldn't want them to be in a higher profile position when they're younger. Um, and because I, you know, I talk about, I have this whole chapter in the book which is essentially a, I guess, probably like the most honest I've been in a long time because it's, you know, as I've said, it's a, there's no instant feedback loop. There's, I can write this and not hear back from it for you know like-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
... a year, and it's me talking about how actually essentially I feel like a lot of, I became known at a time where my self-confidence were- was at its worst, and therefore I was able to g- I guess rather than filling that lack of confidence with confidence and self-worth, I filled it with validation, and therefore when I decided to take a step back from social media because I decided that wasn't what I, what I wanted to do kind of first and foremost as my job, that kind of bandage was ripped off, because it didn't exist. And that's when I realized that, you know, these things are the things that we need to be able to deal with and we need to be able to, I guess, cobble together to be able to, you know, no matter whether this person thinks X, Y, and Z about yourself, how much does that matter? If it does matter and if you do think it's wrong, are you gonna do something about it? And can you still get on with your day, essentially? (laughs) And I think that there are people who are amazing who I see on social media who I wouldn't give a single criticism to that I can think of that I'm sure get the exact same thing. And there are people who've been to hell and back and get the exact same thing. And there are people who actually have done, you know, have lucked out and-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
... get the exact same thing. And in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it necessarily matters. I think what matters is that you know in yourself and you also know that if there's something that you need to change-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Then-
- GBGrace Beverley
... you can change that, like if you want to.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
If, I guess sometimes when something, like other things, you know, like hit a nerve or whatever, like, do you need to change that? Do you need to address that? Do you need to do better?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
Um, so I think that that's, that's kind of how I tackle it. But of course, no, there's not like a, something in me where I, you know, get a message that says, "You look ugly," and I'm like, "Thank you."
- 19:08 – 33:10
Sacrifice of business
- GBGrace Beverley
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, you've got, you know, two businesses, t- two key businesses. And, um, when you run a business when you're young, irrespective of age, you, you undergo a couple of things, real, like unexpected chaos-
- GBGrace Beverley
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... at any given moment, then also a tremendous amount of sacrifice.
- GBGrace Beverley
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I actually wanted to start on the sacrifice piece 'cause I don't think people-
- GBGrace Beverley
Hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... as you said earlier, get to fully see the full picture of sacrifice and cost-
- GBGrace Beverley
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, both personal and professional, whatever. So talk to me about some of the sacrifice that even you didn't expect before you got into business and before your business grew.
- GBGrace Beverley
Um, I think that at the same time as I kind of benefited hugely from the, you know, having money at university, for example, I also went to university expecting one thing and then actually (laughs) spent it-
- SBSteven Bartlett
I know, yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
... essentially getting up at X hour, working on university stuff 'cause I never, ever, ever wanted to give them an excuse to think that I wasn't concentrating fully on my university, and then working all the way essentially way into the night to get the other stuff done. And I also, you know, that comes with being high profile, that comes with all of these things, so I guess one of those things was very much like there was the time and the life experience and th- all of that, that because things took off quickly at one stage, even if it wasn't like, it wasn't that the businesses took off, you know, the businesses have done much more over the past year and a half or whatever when I haven't been at uni. But, at that point, you know, the, the high profileness, all of that, that came with, I guess, different to what I was expecting, um, and, um, or not what I was expecting. I wasn't expecting it at all. And therefore, there was kind of I guess, you know, something that I really did want for myself, I didn't get, but I also got, um, you know, a lot more in an- another way I guess.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What did you want for yourself?
- GBGrace Beverley
I, well, I just wanted the university experience really. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- GBGrace Beverley
And I think that I was so, once this took off, I, I'm a very determined person, and I, I get a, I get a vision, and I'll work for it day and night. And I think that I actually got to, I think in that f- instance, you, y- it's kind of like a fork in the road, and you decide, "Okay, well, I'm taking this one, and I'm gonna concentrate on this. I'm gonna grow the businesses. I'm gonna all of that." And then I think as well I saw the deadline for that as my end of university 'cause if I had to, if it wasn't as big as I wanted it to be by that time, or if it wasn't, you know, whatever it might be-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Another fork in the road.
- GBGrace Beverley
... I, w- I was gonna choose, I was gonna go into a n- normal career.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
Um, and I think that, um, so I was so dedicated to making that happen rather than, you know, I wanted to grow up too quickly essentially. I'm-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- GBGrace Beverley
... 23. Like I, uh, you know, I'm, and I think that a lot of that has been I guess in terms of people's, whether, when it's people who meet you, their kind of perception of you or whatever it might be. And so I think that was something where it was a choice I'd make again and again-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
... but it was I guess a sacrifice that I wasn't expecting to make, and I guess that comes with everything. That comes with, you know, relationships, with friends, with time in general, with, you know, time to yourself, time to whatever. I think having a business in a way, and I'm sure some people will disagree, but, um, having a business in a way is like having a baby. And you can't just-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Of course. (laughs)
- GBGrace Beverley
... you can't just like up and do whatever. You can't, y- you can't say no when a crisis comes in at 1:00 AM. You can't, like, that is what it is. You get all the other benefits with those conditions. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Exactly, yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
And so I think that, you know, that's kind of a constant one. Like you can't, you can't say, "Oh, I'm gonna quit this and go and do this for two years." Because especially when you've got X amount of people working for you, you've got all of their salaries. You've got all of their pensions. You've got, you know, like it's res- it's a huge responsibility.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the buck stops with you, right?
- 33:10 – 50:22
Your mental health
- SBSteven Bartlett
a shot. You mentioned burnout.
- GBGrace Beverley
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, and I remember reading a quote in a, in a piece that, you know, an interview that you did, where you talked about mental health generally and how, you know, you'd, you'd reflected that maybe you weren't representing men's health in the right way. I think you said, um, you were giving advice, but it didn't apply to yourself in terms of, like, talking and being-
- GBGrace Beverley
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... open about it. I want to know about-
- GBGrace Beverley
Oh, we've gone a f- long way back.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I've just been digging through everything, guys.
- GBGrace Beverley
About two and a half years ago.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I just wanted to-
- GBGrace Beverley
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
... get a flavor for everything, and your-
- GBGrace Beverley
Oh, yeah, no, I appreciate that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... yeah, your perspective on things.
- GBGrace Beverley
Take me home, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But talk to me about your mental health and the journey you've been on with your mental health since you were, you know, 18.
- GBGrace Beverley
Um, well, as I've said, I think probably a, one of the reasons that I think I... You know, in that, in that po- post, to give context, I guess, I said that I am one of the biggest advocates for people talking about their mental health. We have mental to- health days, like, within our, th- the company. Like, you know, you can take days off, and you can literally just take a duvet day. And it could be bec- y- you know, because of your mental health, whatever it might be. And I'm the biggest advocate for that and talking about it and everything. And then as soon as it came to me, no. Like, that was not... It's not the same case.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GBGrace Beverley
Like, I'm not going to talk about it. I'm not going to deal with it, and it actually got to a point that I was having seizures, essentially, um, from something really horrible that I went to that was, uh, through that was... Essentially ended up giving wh- me PTSD that presented in seizures. And obviously, I was having symptoms up to the point of the seizures, but I only took it seriously when it was a physical symptom. Like, when it came to the point that I was like, "Okay." (laughs) Like, "I'm being hospitalized now." Like, "This is not ideal at all." And that was the thing that made me slow down, and that was the thing that made me... Or not even slow down. I don't even think I necessarily hugely slowed down after that. But it was kind of like, "Okay, this is real, and this is just as..." Like, if something can manifest so physically that you're having a fucking seizure-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
... then you probably need to take this more seriously. And that was, you know, like, that was, that was tough. That was right before my third year at university that that started. And, um, everything up until then, like, I've been a... I think I have this, like, really toxic mental health attitude within myself that doesn't prioritize it, that isn't, kind of, that kind of sees it as weakness, even though that's the last thing that I'd see, you know, in any of my friends who suffer from depression or an- or anxiety or, like, whatever it might be. And it's completely different. It's like we don't get the same treatment. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
Like, I'll give... You know, I'll understand that, and I'll see that, and I won't do that. And I'm sure there are lots of people who are the exact same.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're not being compassionate to yourself, that's-
- GBGrace Beverley
Exactly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... part of the answer, yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
And I think that that's another reason why I really needed to, like, look inside myself and be able to evaluate that and be able to look at, like, why? Like, why is that the case? Like, why do you feel so undeserving of the justification for, like, you know, having be- bad mental health at one time? And I've b- been lucky that, you know, apart from this, which was a res- result of specific trauma, I've generally been... You know, I've had generally good mental health, and I've, you know, been able to deal with... Uh, y- I, I guess, you know, like, I think a lot of the way that mental health is presented is really damaging in that, you know, people do... I- I've had friends who have kind of said, like, "Oh, yeah, but, you know, I don't want to take meds for my depression," or whatever, and everyone has different views on it. But it's kind of been like, well, any other chemical imbalance in your brain, you would, because you'd say, like, "Hey, I need this to offset this," or, "I need insulin to offset this," or whatever.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
And yet it's like a, it's a thing. It's like a, you know, what's it, what's she called?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
Like, Mrs. Trunchbull, you know, from-
- 50:22 – 55:58
Relationships as a young successful woman
- SBSteven Bartlett
experience. When I was stalking you online, Grace, I found it really hard to find a boyfriend.
- GBGrace Beverley
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was, I was looking a lot, like I was like-
- GBGrace Beverley
You got the look.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I was... I found, like I was like, "Fuck it. We'll try Google Images."
- GBGrace Beverley
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Google Images. I was like, "These are just friends." And then I was like... (laughs)
- GBGrace Beverley
Yeah. I mean, I don't think anyone will find a boyfriend probably until I'm maybe married with kids. But, I mean, as in-
- SBSteven Bartlett
This is a conscious choice.
- GBGrace Beverley
... not that there won't be one. Yeah, yeah. I, I'm not-
- SBSteven Bartlett
And in the public eye.
- GBGrace Beverley
That's... is not.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's a boyfriend there because I read some stuff about you meeting this guy when you were like 15, and then you like off-
- GBGrace Beverley
Oh, no, no, no. There's not a boyfriend there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, there's not a boyfriend there?
- GBGrace Beverley
There's not a boyfriend there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- GBGrace Beverley
But there's never going to be a boyfriend (laughs) there for people to see.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- GBGrace Beverley
But yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Being young-
- GBGrace Beverley
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... being successful, being a woman-
- GBGrace Beverley
I know where this is going. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs) Maybe I don't have to ask the question.
- GBGrace Beverley
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
I'm just saying, like I ask this question to a lot of guests because, probably because I've struggled myself.
- GBGrace Beverley
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right? So being young, you're a successful woman in business. A lot of guys quite, just going to be honest, would be quite intimidated, right? You don't have to answer that, but they would. I'm one of them. I'll tell ya. Right?
- GBGrace Beverley
(laughs)
- 55:58 – 1:02:56
How has being a successful person changed you?
- GBGrace Beverley
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
How has running business and the way that people have treated you in business, especially being a young entrepreneur, and I reflect on this in my own life, changed you as a friend, as a person, im- you know, your patience, your snappiness-
- GBGrace Beverley
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... your, your tolerance?
- GBGrace Beverley
I think I'm a lot more... I think there's part of it that's actually quite interesting that I've been thinking more about recently, where if you're in business and you call the shots, how does that develop in friendship? So, I, I've actually talked about that recently. I don't think I've... You know, I've had to grow in confidence to say, especially to, for example, men who are, have far more experience than me and they're technically, you know, working for me. Like, they, there's been a point where it's kind of like, "Agh, can I say, like, that this is not right?" Or, like, whatever. And I've developed that, but I think, you know, I think I've now developed that well and I don't think I have a problem with that now. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
And therefore, I think that, you know, there's gonna be part of that where you then... Like, well, how does that switch off automatically the second you step through your door and you're with your family or your friends or your housemates or whatever? And I think that that's probably something that I'll... You know, I'm (laughs) very grateful that... I think, I... One- someone once asked me, like, "How do you stay, like, grounded and down to earth?" And I think that the... I don't go for the types of friends that... Obviously, my friends, like, bring me up-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Exactly.
- GBGrace Beverley
... and they're my biggest fans-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- GBGrace Beverley
... but there is no smoke being blown anywhere.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, yeah. (laughs)
- GBGrace Beverley
Like, as in they will be the first person to also say... You know?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Literally.
- GBGrace Beverley
And that's what I value.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
Like, I don't want to be in a superior position in friendship, in family relations, in whatever it is. (laughs) And I will never be with the friends and family that I have. And I think that that's so important. And I think that that can absolutely affect people and I think that, you know, I've seen people then surround themselves only with people in their position or only with whatever.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Tough.
- GBGrace Beverley
And I think that, you know, one of the most valuable things I have is that a lot of my friends are in entry-level jobs and I'm able to see from their point of view what's the most frustrating thing about their workplace and not feeling valued or whatever. And I'm allowed, uh, I can make sure that that... I try to put it, like, my best to make sure that never happens for people within mine. And I think that... So you can get those, you know... You get so many benefits from having different people around you, primarily, like, no one is kind of there, yeah, as we were saying, blowing smoke.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about when, what about when the bill comes?
- GBGrace Beverley
Oh. (laughs) Well, first of all-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GBGrace Beverley
... you'll be pleased to hear that my friends like to go to very cheap places.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay, brilliant.
- GBGrace Beverley
Which I also like... I'm, I, I love a, you know, nice dinner and a nice, like, whatever. But you will not... I mean, you, you'll find me buying a bottle in a club if it's one of my friend's birthdays or, like, whatever.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Go on.
- GBGrace Beverley
You know, like, I love treating my friends. I love taking them on holiday, like, I love... You know. But it's... You can tell when that's someone who's there for that. I also have... The m- large majority of my friends have been around me for a long time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Long time.
- GBGrace Beverley
And, um, I think I, I generally trust myself to be a good judge of character.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- 1:02:56 – 1:12:01
Your take on working culture
- SBSteven Bartlett
We talked a little bit before we gone, on, uh, we started recording about working culture and how working culture has changed and how-
- GBGrace Beverley
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... the pandemic has shifted things to being, you know, um, working from home. What d'you, what's your take on working culture and how teams should operate, and how, how your teams operate, and stuff?
- GBGrace Beverley
So I've been reading a lot about this recently, actually, um, general things, you know, like rework, work rules, like, all of those types of books talking about working culture. And I think that the main point of interest for me that I've kind of been exploring, obviously, has been the idea of working culture, but how we internalize it and how our lack of boundaries within this generation has meant that we're, have no boundaries between work or not work, so it's, kind of, you can be working anywhere and everywhere. So when you're n- ... you've kind of internalized this idea that when you're not working everywhere and anywhere, it's the equivalent of, like, being in an office and taking a nap.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
Like, just because you're living your life. And I think that that, to me, is the most ... that stands out as the most problematic, kind of, side of working culture within our generation. I also think that that is, that is coupled with, you know, like, companies like Google, for example, who are seen to have really good working culture because they support their employees, they, you know, unlimited holiday, all of that. Some of that is also a thinly-veiled way of making people work more, 'cause they don't have to do their laundry, they don't have to cook their lunch, they don't have to, um, you know, they're not gonna take any of that holiday if they're given unlimited, but they do feel valued so they work harder. You know. And I think that it's really complex-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
... and I think that it's not necessarily, like, I definitely couldn't deconstruct it (laughs) as a whole, and I-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- GBGrace Beverley
... probably perpetuate it in some ways, but I think that it's important that we look at it more and more now these boundaries are absolutely gone, especially, you know, I started having some of these thoughts and feelings when I started working from home before we progressed to having an office, um, and I kind of was thinking, like, "Why am I working more than I ever have and producing less than I ever have?" And also my mental health is on the floor.
- SBSteven Bartlett
From home?
- GBGrace Beverley
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
And I think that then, when, kind of, there was the office exodus going a- at the, kind of, pandemic-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Oh, it's painful.
- GBGrace Beverley
... um, and then people kind of saying the same thing and all of that, and I was like, "Aw, crud." And I'm like, "Why am I feeling happy-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- GBGrace Beverley
... at, you know, the fact that everyone else is struggling, too?" And it was, you know, it's a lack of boundaries. We have awful boundaries surrounding work, surrounding success, surrounding all of this. And it's part of a generation that, I guess, bulldozes boundaries in a kind of progressive sense, but it ends up meaning that we actually don't know where we stand, we don't know what is good for us, and I guess we are constantly on the hustle train being told to, like, do more, think more, achieve more, like, X, Y, Z without ever questioning whether it serves us, because that's what we've been put on. Like, if you're a hard worker, you have to go in that j- like, k- kind of way. And I talk a lot in the book as well about, like, the, I guess, the kind of contradiction between the progressing values of, like, a four-day workweek and, you know, amazing, you know, places like, um, Nordic countries that have amazing work rules and all of that. And at the same time, like, at literally the exact same time, and often by the same, you know, people, the same, kind of, um, examination of it, we also have this idea that you, kind of, need to work all the time. And it's like, how are we progressing in these two completely different directions-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- GBGrace Beverley
... and we don't necessarily know which one is right? And then if we're going down to the four-day workweek, is that because it makes us more productive, so technically it's actually to make us, like, work more or produce more or whatever it might be?
- SBSteven Bartlett
In those four days, yeah.
- GBGrace Beverley
And so I guess it's, it's all just very complex, and I think that there's not enough examination around it in the mainstream, I guess.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- GBGrace Beverley
Like, you should be able to, if you're in the financial position to, and you want to and everything, like, you should technically be able to take your work down to four days a week or whatever. And that seems like the most ludicrous suggestion ever, because, you know, you could always be producing more, you could always be doing this, you could alwa-
Episode duration: 1:57:16
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