How I Built 5 Multi-Million Dollar Companies: Marcia Kilgore | E99

Steven Bartlett 0:00 Quick one. The Diary of a CEO Live, my live show, my live reincarnation of this podcast is coming on tour, and it's coming to a city near you. There's a link in the description below. Put your email address in, and I will email you when tickets go on sale. Can't wait to see ya.

Marcia Kilgore 0:14 (instrumental music) You know, when you have that kind of experience early, you grow up very fast. And you know what's important, and you prioritize, so. Another deep question.

Steven Bartlett 0:23 All of these are deep questions.

Marcia Kilgore 0:24 Yeah. Okay, so-

Steven Bartlett 0:25 Did you feel like a bit of a fraud?

Marcia Kilgore 0:27 No.

Steven Bartlett 0:27 No?

Marcia Kilgore 0:27 I totally thought I knew what I was doing.

Steven Bartlett 0:29 People don't do that. They don't just, like, change-

Marcia Kilgore 0:31 Well, you do when you're 20, right?

Steven Bartlett 0:32 They don't.

Marcia Kilgore 0:33 People came back. Madonna and Uma Thurman and Oprah. (instrumental music)

Steven Bartlett 0:43 Marcia Kilgoor. I can't actually believe what you're about to hear. I can't actually believe that one human being could have achieved that many successful business exits back-to-back. She's built companies like Soap & Glory, like Bliss Beauty Pie, which she's building at the moment, and these companies have sold for tens and hundreds of millions. They've made hundreds of millions in annual revenue. And the remarkable thing is, she's not just done it once. She's not just done it twice. Not three times, not four times. She's done it five times. And I sat here with her, trying to figure out why her. What was it about Marcia that made her achieve such tremendous things in her life? And I think we finally got there. I think we finally found the answer. And is it something that you can replicate? A lot of it is, and I think that's what makes this podcast today so interesting. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music) There is so much that makes you unique. So much. And sometimes I think, and I think I'm guilty of this to some degree too, we don't always

Steven Bartlett 2:00 see ourselves as being unique, because we're inside of our minds, and we're, you know, we're behaving in the way that feels natural to us. But when I look at your s- your story, and the decisions you've made since you were very, very young, it's so clear to me that there's something so different about, many things that are so different about you, and I wanna kinda get to the root of that. What is the foundation of that difference? What was it, what was the cauldron, the experience that created the person you went on to become for the following, you know...

Marcia Kilgore 2:26 Wow. That's starting-

Steven Bartlett 2:28 ... couple decades.

Marcia Kilgore 2:28 ... with a very, very deep question, isn't it?

Steven Bartlett 2:30 It is, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 2:31 Yeah. I mean, I think that, um, I grew up in a, a very small town, um, and a, and a small city, and Canada at that time was, you know, relatively simple. And I always had a hunger to learn more and read more and find out more, and kind of knew that I didn't really fit in in a small city. Um, so very early on, I kind of started to think, "Well, what can I do, and how can I get out of here?" But I didn't have much guidance. So my father died early, and my mum was not necessarily someone who would help me, you know, look at universities, for instance, or say, "Hey, you should real- Your grades are really great. Why don't you study and do this or that?" 'Cause she had never done it herself. So she, um, no one really in my family guided me, and at that point, there weren't really university counselors or anyone doing that job in, in high schools, at least in, in Canada. So I think for me, uh, I realized quite early, probably when I was a teenager, that I just needed more stimulation, and I needed more than what was there just to, you know, feel fulfilled and, and keep my curiosity going. Those teenage years, you have a lot of experiences, and apparently what happens during your teenage years, because your brain is forming in a very different way and it's starting to sort of solidify, right? Um, those kinds of experience really stick with you through your whole life. And I remember having several part-time jobs when I was a teenager, um, all, you know, simultaneously while going to high school, and never really finding a job where I thought that the person in charge of the business was doing it well. So (laughs) I worked at a gym, for instance, and I always thought, "Oh, they could do it so much better if they were just doing this, that, and the other thing." I taught aerobics classes, and I thought aerobics was so boring the way it was done and tried to do it, you know, in a very different way so it was more fun for the people who came. And just always trying to improve the experience, because I was in quite a mediocre setting. Lovely setting, but you know, very average. Very, uh, you know, middle Canada. Um, and so that was probably a bit of the, a bit of the stimulation.

Steven Bartlett 4:34 On that point though, that, that sort of philosophy or even the thought that you could make something better, I, that's, that's a point of difference that a lotta people don't have. Where did, where did that come from in you so early that if something isn't good enough, that you had the power within yourself to do something about it? 'Cause I think most people will go through life just accepting things as they are.

Marcia Kilgore 4:55 That would be just terribly depressing, wouldn't it?

Steven Bartlett 4:57 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 4:57 I guess if you can connect the dots and see your way to something that might be more elevating for your mind and then for others and make something a little bit more fun, um, you can go deep into the childhood stuff, right? Uh, and, and just think about... I mean, there were situations in my childhood, and it happens to a lot of people, so I'm by, you know, by no means unique in this respect, but where, for instance, and this will probably be more girls than boys, but at some point in every girl's existence in school, you become the unpopular one. How you feel maybe so much of an outsider when suddenly you're out and how painful that can be. I think probably in my experience when I was suddenly not cool anymore, (laughs) probably was really painful for me 'cause I also feel things quite acutely. So trying also to think, well, if other people feel left out, how can you make them feel like they're more a part of something? And so most of the businesses that I create are, are very democratic. Um, Bliss even, which was my spa that I created in, in New York. I mean, we had everybody coming in from, like, Madonna and Uma Thurman and Oprah, right? But then the tr-... 12-year-old kids who had chronic acne and, you know, their moms would bring them in to have facials. We treated everybody exactly the same way.

Steven Bartlett 6:10 Hm.

Marcia Kilgore 6:11 Um, I think one of my favorite memories from that was when I was actually giving a facial to one of these 12-year-old kids, that-

Steven Bartlett 6:18 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 6:19 ... her mom had brought her from Boston and Uma Thurman was in the locker room at the same time and helped her open her locker.

Steven Bartlett 6:24 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 6:25 So she comes into my treatment room and goes, " (gasps) Uma Thurman just helped me unlock my locker."

Steven Bartlett 6:30 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 6:30 And it was so cute because, you know, everybody was the same and that makes me feel great. I think probably some of that experience as a child, not feeling equal-

Steven Bartlett 6:40 Hm.

Marcia Kilgore 6:40 ... being left out maybe a little bit. We, we ... After my father passed away, we were not necessarily poor, or, you know, but not-

Steven Bartlett 6:49 Hm.

Marcia Kilgore 6:49 ... c- certainly not comfortable in any way, shape, or form. Um, at one point, we moved back to a small town and we kind of lived on the wrong side of the tracks. If there was a wrong side of the tracks, we lived on the wrong side of the tracks in this very small town where my mother's family is, was from. So, you kind of felt like you weren't quite as good as everyone else, but that wasn't fair.

Steven Bartlett 7:06 Hm.

Marcia Kilgore 7:07 And so, very likely, the idea of this democratization of the good stuff-

Steven Bartlett 7:13 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 7:14 ... is (laughs) , probably comes from that. But I'm sure you could grab any therapist, anywhere, and they would give you a different version of it.

Steven Bartlett 7:20 Yes, um, yeah. The passing of your father seems to be quite a poignant point. You, you seem to refer to it as, like, before and after, how life was somewhat different. And, um, after y- your father passed away, um, the requirement for you to develop, like, a real sense of independence seems to have sort of really come through. I think you ... I read it that you got ... You had three part-time jobs at one point?

Marcia Kilgore 7:40 Yeah, yeah. Well, I had to ... I mean, my mother was a secretary.

Steven Bartlett 7:44 Right.

Marcia Kilgore 7:44 So she didn't have a, you know, huge income. I ... At the time, I was probably 11, right, so I didn't ask her, "Hey, do we have any money (laughs) in the bank."

Steven Bartlett 7:52 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 7:52 You don't really ask those kinds of questions after the, the death of a, of your parent. Um, but I assumed just from the way that my mother, you know, acted, that we weren't exactly stable or, you know, financially well off. So being, I think, the youngest but yet potentially the most responsible of the three, um, sisters, I kind of felt like I had to help, and maybe help in order for her to feel better herself. M- Have you ever watched Jim Carrey? He, he actually talks about ... I mean, of course you've watched Jim Carrey.

Steven Bartlett 8:26 Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 8:26 But there's an interview that he gives where he talks about his mother actually suffered from tremendous depression, and he learned to be funny because he wanted her to laugh and he wanted to see her feel good. And I know there is something about, "Okay, I'm gonna have a paper route and I'm gonna, you know, be a personal trainer or teach aerobics, and I'm gonna work as a waitress even though I'm not necessarily old enough to serve alcohol in this establishment." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 8:55 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 8:56 Whatever it was, I would just do it because I want- I wanted to take the stress off of her.

Steven Bartlett 9:01 Hm.

Marcia Kilgore 9:01 I didn't want her to think, if I wanted, you know, a car or whatever it was, that she was gonna have to pay for it, 'cause I knew it was already quite stressful for her to just pay the rent.

Steven Bartlett 9:11 Mm.

Marcia Kilgore 9:11 So I think, you know, you just do whatever's expected of you and, and, eh, it was fine, right? It's great. It gives y- ... It's a skill. It's like a gift in a way. You can look at it and just think, "Well, I developed that skill from 10,000 hours of practice, maybe a- over a year or two," and, uh, it was never hard for me to work again.

Steven Bartlett 9:28 You mentioned the gym, though. Personal training?

Marcia Kilgore 9:31 Oh, yeah. So when I moved to New York ... It's a long story, but I then moved to New York when I was 18 after, um,

Marcia Kilgore 9:38 uh, my 12th grade, and I got accepted to Columbia University, and I was supposed to go but I didn't have any money, and my sister who lived in New York said, "I'll help you out with your tuition," but then she had a little SNAFU with her income that year. It was, like, a tax thing or whatever. You know, again, no big deal. And so I was in New York and I had no, no money to go to university and it was too late because I was Canadian to get a foreign student loan. So I decided to use the only skill that I had. When I was ... And I n- I know you can tell this about me, but I was a bodybuilder. (laughs) I know it's kind of hard to see now.

Steven Bartlett 10:13 I know the original, yeah. Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 10:14 But I was, I was, like, a middleweight bodybuilding champion when I was a teenager. I, uh ... You know, between the three part-time jobs, I would then go to the gym at night and, you know.

Steven Bartlett 10:20 Where did that come from? 'Cause that's, that is a, that takes a degree of, dare I say it, dedication, to say the least.

Marcia Kilgore 10:27 Yeah, it was, it was random. I think it was, again, my sister started dating this guy whose brother owned a bodybuilding gym and he said to me, "Hey, you should come down to the gym," 'cause I was a long-distance runner-

Steven Bartlett 10:39 Hm.

Marcia Kilgore 10:39 ... and, you know, uh, just to kind of let off steam, I think. I just loved to always go running. And so he said, "Oh, you should come down." Miss Canada at the time, like, Miss Canada lightweight or featherweight or whatever (laughs) , she w- she worked out there, and so she put me through the paces and gave me a routine and all this kind of stuff, and I just went because-

Steven Bartlett 10:58 But-

Marcia Kilgore 10:58 ... it was something to do.

Steven Bartlett 10:59 ... even then though, a lot of people m- go to the gym. They train, whatever, two days, three days a week. For you to have gone from just walking in the door to becoming a, like, a junior bodybuilding champion or something ...

Marcia Kilgore 11:09 You know, I suppose, again, if you, like, had a therapist come in and say, "Oh, why would you do that?"

Steven Bartlett 11:14 Right.

Marcia Kilgore 11:14 It's probably to give some kind of semblance, control, and the ability to achieve something, uh, you know, to my life, which, at the time, I'm a teenager in a high school in the middle of Saskatchewan.

Steven Bartlett 11:28 Hm.

Marcia Kilgore 11:28 School was not so hard for me.

Steven Bartlett 11:30 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 11:31 So what else am I gonna do?

Steven Bartlett 11:32 A sense of, like, purpose, I guess, and-

Marcia Kilgore 11:34 Yeah, and, and to have that discipline, you also have control, right? So if you can control your body, then you could probably control other things, and if you can achieve things with seeing how far you can take it, then, you know, it just adds to the, I guess, the, the challenge.

Steven Bartlett 11:50 This is really interest-

Marcia Kilgore 11:50 You, you like a bit of a challenge.

Steven Bartlett 11:52 I do. I love challenge.

Marcia Kilgore 11:53 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 11:53 I also really love working out and I'm, I'm, uh, well, going to the gym every single day and I, I, I ... You know what it was? It was, I had, um ... I, I sat here with a entrepreneur and she, um, is very well-known. She's got millions of followers online for be- for basically being a bodybuilder.

Marcia Kilgore 12:05 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 12:05 She describes herself as a bodybuilder but she doesn't ... You know, she's, um, a very lean bodybuilder, let's say, but, um-And she told me that when she was in school, she was outcasted a little bit, and she would eat her, like, lunch in the, the toilets. Her name's Chrissy Chella. Um, and her go- her going to the gym was, in some respects, an escape from all of that.

Marcia Kilgore 12:23 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 12:23 It was like, her way of, yeah, I think it gave her-

Marcia Kilgore 12:27 Building herself back up.

Steven Bartlett 12:28 ... a sense of control. Building herself back up.

Marcia Kilgore 12:29 Well, just, yeah, if you think about physically what's happening, right?

Steven Bartlett 12:31 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 12:31 She's building herself back up.

Steven Bartlett 12:33 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 12:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:34 And when you start talking about s- sort of being excluded from the, the cool kids and stuff, and then that your bodybuilding became a big sort of, (sighs) you know, feature in your life at that age, I wondered if there was a link or, um, 'cause it is r- it is an extreme thing. It's, uh, requires a, a, a level of persistence and a, and a- an okayness with being uncomfortable, physically uncomfortable that-

Marcia Kilgore 12:55 That to- you know what? The gym was also full of adults.

Steven Bartlett 12:57 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 12:58 And I think I was a, uh, young adult.

Steven Bartlett 13:00 Right.

Marcia Kilgore 13:00 So I probably had more of a mindset of an adult early.

Steven Bartlett 13:04 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 13:04 I'm not, I'm not, like, the most intelligent human being on, uh, you know, on the Earth, but I'm probably slightly more intellectual than most of the people that I was in school with.

Steven Bartlett 13:15 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 13:15 So I found my friends in a- an environment where there were people working out and being healthy, and just older. And so I think that probably had something to do with it too. You had people to talk to there that you could kind of-

Steven Bartlett 13:27 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 13:27 ... connect to, versus the teenagers who maybe were going through their teenage things. I'd say also, and I've had this conversation with, you know, if you've experienced a death in your family early or if you've had a parent or a sibling who's, uh, you know, chronically ill or handicapped, you see life in a very different way, right? So if your father dies when you're 11 and you're in a high school with a group of girls and they're all very catty and you just think, "Oh, really?" (laughs) I'm, you're not going there. It's not interesting to be part of that kind of crowd. You don't wanna talk about those kinds of things. They're not important and you know it, because you've been through something profound very early on.

Steven Bartlett 14:08 Interesting.

Marcia Kilgore 14:08 So it's hard to connect to people who haven't, like, you know, when you have that kind of experience early, you grow up very fast and you know what's important and you prioritize. So, it's hard to find anyone to relate to if you have a bunch of teenagers who haven't, right?

Steven Bartlett 14:27 Are you saying that you didn't fit in? You didn't think you f- fitted into that?

Marcia Kilgore 14:30 I don't- I don't have any friends from high school.

Steven Bartlett 14:31 Yeah, same.

Marcia Kilgore 14:32 Do you... Yeah, okay, so did you fit in?

Steven Bartlett 14:34 Yeah. Uh, no.

Marcia Kilgore 14:34 Yeah, so (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 14:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 14:36 Yeah, I probably didn't fit in, and we didn't feel like an outcast in any way, shape, or form, but I had not much to talk to them about, right?

Steven Bartlett 14:42 For sure.

Marcia Kilgore 14:42 What they were, what they wanted to talk about at that time just wasn't that interesting to me. So, whether or not I was fitting in or not, I just didn't have the same interests, I guess, um, you know, as- as the other kids who were maybe able to grow up at a normal pace because of, you know, their normal existence.

Steven Bartlett 15:03 So take me back then. So you, you get the place at Columbia and then-

Marcia Kilgore 15:07 Yeah, I got a place at Columbia and then it didn't work out that year. And I thought, "Oh, I'll- maybe I'll save up and I'll go next year, but I have to, um, here I am in New York, I have $300," right? And my mom (laughs) for, I was the third of three girls and the two, uh, older ones were a bit of a handful, right? So she gave me for my grade 12 graduation present, like a backpack that was also a suitcase. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 15:29 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 15:30 And I was, I was actually the really disciplined, helpful one, but I think she had just had it. Like, by then she'd been through the death of my dad and then my, my older sister, who had moved away quite early, and then my middle sister who, you know, was, um, I wouldn't say complicated, but she'd been in a couple of car accidents. Like, it was exhausting for my mother. So, by the time I was done high school, I think she was just like, "See ya." (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 15:56 Hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 15:58 And I don't blame her, right?

Steven Bartlett 15:59 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 15:59 A single mom, three girls, you must be, y- like up to here. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 16:04 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 16:04 So she gave me this bag- and I moved, and I actually moved in with my sister who was living in New York. And, um, and I needed to work because I had to, you know, it was like, "Well, here I am. I'm not going back to Saskatchewan."

Steven Bartlett 16:15 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 16:15 And so I had to figure out what to do, and the only skill I had at the time was, like, the body.

Steven Bartlett 16:20 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 16:20 And so I got, um, a gym membership at this place called Better Bodies-

Steven Bartlett 16:25 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 16:25 ... which was on 19th Street between 5th and 6th, and it was the place where kind of everybody who was anybody... You know, back then, like, bodybuilding had started to kind of be a thing, you know, everybody was talking about Arnold. I think Pumping Iron had kind of-

Steven Bartlett 16:37 Right, right, right.

Marcia Kilgore 16:38 ... maybe just come out? B- I mean, this was way before Arnold was a governor.

Steven Bartlett 16:43 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 16:43 And, um, and so I went to the gym, and Jean-Claude Van Damme worked out there and his wife Gladys Portugues, who was also this famous bodybuilder, and then all the kind of cool film directors and fashion designers would- uh, everybody went to this gym.

Steven Bartlett 16:56 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 16:57 However, they were quite new to it. I had been, like, bodybuilding the- by then for three years, or four years maybe even, and so I looked great, right?

Steven Bartlett 17:06 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 17:06 And so did Jean-Claude and so did Gladys. The rest of them, not yet.

Steven Bartlett 17:11 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 17:11 So, I would have people come to me, and I'm 18, right, and say, "Hey, I wanna, you know, I wanna look like you." 'Cause I wasn't really bulky, I looked like an Olympic athlete, and so they wanted how I looked.

Steven Bartlett 17:22 Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 17:22 And so I'd charge them $15 or $20 an hour and do personal training, which, you know, back then for an 18-year-old-

Steven Bartlett 17:28 That's incredible.

Marcia Kilgore 17:28 ... it was a lot, 'cause minimum wage was probably 3.50.

Steven Bartlett 17:31 Mm-hmm. Wow.

Marcia Kilgore 17:32 (laughs) So I thought, "Oh, this is amazing." And so I became a personal trainer to, you know, a lot of kinda celebs, and they would then send me to their friend and refer me to this person or that person. And so it started out that way, but I kind of realized working in the gym for 15 bucks an hour was not gonna pay my rent.... and or anything else, and probably was not that sustainable over the long term. And I had no business skills as such, but I knew what good service was like. 'Cause with common sense, you know how you wanna be treated, and you know how you would wanna show up, and how you wanna treat your customer, and how you try to make sure that they enjoy their experience so that they have you back. Now, personal training is one of those things where most people who need a personal trainer hate exercise.

Steven Bartlett 18:17 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 18:17 Otherwise, you wouldn't really need a personal trainer. So, there was a lot of thought that went into, like, the, I would, I guess you could talk about it now as, like, a loyalty mechanic. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 18:27 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 18:28 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 18:28 Loyalty program.

Marcia Kilgore 18:28 Yeah. How can I get them to make sure they don't cancel, right?

Steven Bartlett 18:32 Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 18:32 Because they hate this, otherwise they wouldn't be coming.

Steven Bartlett 18:34 Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 18:34 I have to make sure that this whole experience, they're just looking forward to it-

Steven Bartlett 18:38 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 18:38 ... so that every, you know, Tuesday and Thursday or whatever, I'm showing up and making my 40 bucks, otherwise I wouldn't be able to pay my rent.

Steven Bartlett 18:46 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 18:46 Um, so, I think the early seeds of how do you get someone to come back and, and how do you give service that's so above and a- and beyond that there's nobody else who will try this hard, was planted then because-

Steven Bartlett 18:59 What did you learn about loyalty and customer retention?

Marcia Kilgore 19:02 You've gotta always be pleasant, right? I mean, you have to be patient. You have to be totally, absolutely focused on your customer, right? So, it was about them, it was not about me. And I think there are a lot of people who slip into friend mode, right, or start to kind of talk about their problems. It's like, no one is paying you to listen to your problems. So, whether you are a personal trainer or giving a facial or waxing somebody's legs or whatever it is, nobody wants to hear about your stuff. That's not why they're paying, right? You're there to focus on them. And no one gets enough attention.

Steven Bartlett 19:38 Hm.

Marcia Kilgore 19:38 Maybe some people get o-

Steven Bartlett 19:39 Yeah. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 19:39 ... enough attention, but most people don't get enough attention. They don't have someone who really listens to them, right? We're all rushing around all the time.

Steven Bartlett 19:46 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 19:46 So, even to just be there, doing whatever it is you're doing, taking them through their paces, running them up flights of stairs. I mean, I took people jogging, right, around Manhattan. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 19:55 Wow.

Marcia Kilgore 19:55 Nine times a day. I was spent.

Steven Bartlett 19:57 (laughs) And you went on to start Bliss.

Marcia Kilgore 20:00 Yes. So-

Steven Bartlett 20:01 Tell me.

Marcia Kilgore 20:01 ... from running around Manhattan nine times a day, running upstairs in w- in the summer especially, my skin

Marcia Kilgore 20:07 got quite bad. And it had never been great. You know, through my teenage years, everybody has a little bit of, you know, acne et cetera, et cetera, but mine, I'd never quite solved it. And I bought a lot of products to try and solve it, and I actually personally trained somebody who worked at one of the hot, you know, skincare brands at the time, and he gave me everything and nothing really worked. Um, and so I thought one summer ... In the summer, when you're a personal trainer in New York, all of your clients generally will go to the Hamptons. And so for me, that was like two months without income, right?

Steven Bartlett 20:39 Oh, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 20:39 No one pays you when they're not working out.

Steven Bartlett 20:42 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 20:42 So, I thought, "I can either go to the Hamptons and be captive in somebody's house," because you then become kind of like, people would drag you to the beach and say, "Oh, here's my personal trainer," and you just, it was not a good dynamic for somebody like me who does not, um-

Steven Bartlett 20:55 Want freedom and-

Marcia Kilgore 20:56 I want freedom. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 20:57 Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 20:57 So, I decided, I found this skincare, uh, it was, it was like a school, and I decided to take this crash course in how to f- you know, fix your own skin. And it was actually how to do facials, but I was taking it for myself, and then I realized I really loved it. And then I convinced my very trusting, and I am so grateful to them, but personal training clients. These were, you know, some A names (laughs) and they let me-

Steven Bartlett 21:24 Keep- name drop.

Marcia Kilgore 21:25 They, they let me practice on them.

Steven Bartlett 21:26 Name drop.

Marcia Kilgore 21:27 Like, at the time-

Steven Bartlett 21:28 Oprah?

Marcia Kilgore 21:29 Oh, yeah, I've had O- yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:30 Of course.

Marcia Kilgore 21:31 Oprah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:31 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 21:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when I-

Steven Bartlett 21:32 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 21:32 Very, very early on, it was more like Paul Simon and Carrie Fisher. So, I mean, everybody. Everybody who was anybody kind of came in and, and let me do their face. And it was a real, it was like a real gift to be trusted with people who relied on their faces for their work.

Steven Bartlett 21:49 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 21:50 Right?

Steven Bartlett 21:50 A- and so this is-

Marcia Kilgore 21:50 At that early stage.

Steven Bartlett 21:51 ... your own location in Manhattan?

Marcia Kilgore 21:53 Well, it started with people coming to my, (laughs) to my apartment.

Steven Bartlett 21:57 Oh, okay.

Marcia Kilgore 21:57 Yeah. So, I would personally train people by running all over Manhattan during the day. And then at night, I, because my sister had some connections with the modeling age- uh, m- modeling industry, let's just say, she had some, um, bookers who had some other models who had terrible skin.

Steven Bartlett 22:14 Right.

Marcia Kilgore 22:14 And so they would send these models to me-

Steven Bartlett 22:16 Ah.

Marcia Kilgore 22:16 ... because I was known, I guess. I mean, I didn't even have a reputation for knowing what I was doing, but... And they would come to my apartment in the East Village and literally lie on the floor.

Steven Bartlett 22:27 Did you feel like a bit of, a bit of a fraud in those early days when you were like-

Marcia Kilgore 22:31 No.

Steven Bartlett 22:31 No?

Marcia Kilgore 22:31 I totally thought I knew what I was doing.

Steven Bartlett 22:33 Okay.

Marcia Kilgore 22:34 Yeah. Because-

Steven Bartlett 22:35 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 22:35 ... I worked so hard, right?

Steven Bartlett 22:37 Right.

Marcia Kilgore 22:37 So, I knew the steps of a facial and I had never had a facial somewhere where it was any different than what I was doing. And I knew that I was more, you know, where a normal facial would take an hour, I would spend two and a half on somebody.

Steven Bartlett 22:51 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 22:52 So, I knew that if I didn't necessarily have the best technique, I was gonna try harder.

Steven Bartlett 22:57 Sure.

Marcia Kilgore 22:57 And so I'd make up for it that way. People came back and then they sent me all their friends and then they sent me all their friends. And then suddenly, you know, it was like a social club, you couldn't get people outta the house.

Steven Bartlett 23:08 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 23:08 So, I'd have to get up at 5:00 AM to go do a personal training session with somebody. Someone would've come over for a facial at 8 o'clock at night the night before, I finished them at 10:30, and then they'd wanna chat, and it was like, "I gotta get an office because I gotta get these people outta here." (laughs) And 'cause you're kinda stuck in your apartment and y- it's hard to then get the client to then go when they're in your house.

Steven Bartlett 23:31 There seems to be a theme emerging here, which is, b- I mean, you only just told me about two kind of professional pursuits, the personal training and now the, the, the facial business as it started. Um, but you're re- you seem like some- as, to me someone that's really remarkable at customer experience. Because the fact that you can't get them out of your house, um, and that your, you know, these personal training clients are, you know-

Marcia Kilgore 23:52 Letting me do-

Steven Bartlett 23:53 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 23:53 Yeah. Letting me experiment-

Steven Bartlett 23:54 It's-

Marcia Kilgore 23:54 ... on them with wax and things like that.

Steven Bartlett 23:57 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 23:57 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:57 That's like a really underrated thing. I mean, what we're talking about there is fundamentally like sales.

Marcia Kilgore 24:02 Sales, I guess, and trust.

Steven Bartlett 24:03 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 24:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:04 Which I think is part of sales, right? Like, trust is a super important part of being a-

Marcia Kilgore 24:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:08 ... you know. And you-

Marcia Kilgore 24:09 And sales, you know, if you're selling-

Steven Bartlett 24:12 It sounds bad, I know, doesn't it?

Marcia Kilgore 24:14 Yeah, because, (sighs) I mean, I hate the idea of sales, but I love selling.

Steven Bartlett 24:18 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 24:18 But I couldn't sell something if I didn't think it was great. Right?

Steven Bartlett 24:21 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 24:21 Don't ask me to sell something I don't love, 'cause I can't do it. But if I loved something, I could sell it to anybody.

Steven Bartlett 24:27 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 24:28 So I guess it's more about aligning your, like, moral conviction with whatever it is that you are then selling.

Steven Bartlett 24:37 Do you- do you consider yourself a salesperson?

Marcia Kilgore 24:39 Well, would I say I'm a salesperson? That's a really hard-

Steven Bartlett 24:44 So without the stigma-

Marcia Kilgore 24:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:45 Let- let's remove the stigma of that.

Marcia Kilgore 24:46 Well, everything is sales, right?

Steven Bartlett 24:48 Exactly. Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 24:49 Yeah, you just have to be... Look, you gotta be pleasant, right? Unless you're some kind of genius that people need to have around.

Steven Bartlett 24:56 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 24:57 The world gets to choose who they're interacting with.

Steven Bartlett 25:00 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 25:00 And so if you want, in- in any area of your life, right, if you want to have, like, great team members in your office, you better be pleasant to be around, or they're not. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 25:12 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 25:12 They're not gonna stay if you wanna, you know, meet with a, an editor or journalist or what, uh, who are they gonna write about? Probably the people, A, yes, everybody's got an interesting story, but those who they like-

Steven Bartlett 25:24 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 25:24 ... are probably gonna get a little further than those who are assholes. Right?

Steven Bartlett 25:27 Interesting.

Marcia Kilgore 25:28 Yeah. Do you consider yourself a salesperson?

Steven Bartlett 25:31 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 25:32 Yeah?

Steven Bartlett 25:32 Yeah, but without, you- I have the same allergic reaction to the term, where I'm like forcing, 'cause we're not- we're not forcing things upon people that we don't believe in.

Marcia Kilgore 25:40 No, you're helping them find what they probably would've bought, but find the right one.

Steven Bartlett 25:44 Yeah, sales is-

Marcia Kilgore 25:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 25:45 ... persuasion, it's body language, it's communication, it's the way y- you know, the passion you have for what you're talking about.

Marcia Kilgore 25:50 Yeah, and- and it's delivering information in a way that helps somebody make a choice without feeling stressed, right? Because generally, I think if you- if you are trying to get someone to try something-

Steven Bartlett 26:02 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 26:02 ... right, but you're pushing it in the wrong way that isn't aligning with what they need to hear about it-

Steven Bartlett 26:08 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 26:09 ... then that is a failed sale.

Steven Bartlett 26:12 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 26:12 Yes, because actually you should be listening.

Steven Bartlett 26:15 And- and if they don't think you're objective, right, and this is one of the things that I think has been most successful with my longest-standing clients from my previous company was they knew that I would come there and I would tell them when our work was bad.

Marcia Kilgore 26:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:26 So I would say, "Don't do this. It's a waste. It's gonna waste your money."

Marcia Kilgore 26:29 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 26:29 "But these things here I actually think are gonna work really well." So the minute I would say, "But these things here," they'd go, "Yes."

Marcia Kilgore 26:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:34 Because they felt I was largely objective.

Marcia Kilgore 26:37 It's trust. It's trust also.

Steven Bartlett 26:37 I was largely objective. Trust, right, exactly.

Marcia Kilgore 26:38 Yeah, which is sort of number one, isn't it? It's like worst for us, better for you.

Steven Bartlett 26:42 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 26:42 Yeah, and if people feel like you're aligned with them doing better-

Steven Bartlett 26:47 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 26:47 ... which is what you always should be anyway-

Steven Bartlett 26:49 Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 26:49 ... because that's just listening to the customer and giving... I mean, this is so basic, right? It's back to the basics of you listen to them and you give them what they're asking for. And that's sales, actually. So if you... They'll tell you. Any customer will tell you what they want.

Steven Bartlett 27:04 Do customers always know what they want, though?

Marcia Kilgore 27:07 No. No, definitely not, right? Somebody said to me, and- and they weren't talking about customers, they were talking about buyers at department stores, so the people who are employed by department stores to purchase the merchandise that then gets sold on to customers, and he said, "Buyers. Department store buyers are experts at yesterday." Right? And to some extent, it's true. They look at their data from, you know, before. And so, of course, if you look at the world or the percentage of, uh, people who are visionary enough to think about something new that people might want, it's probably quite a small percentage. And all the rest of the people think in a different way and, you know, provide a lot of value to the world in different ways. But there are a select few, I suppose, who think of the new stuff-

Steven Bartlett 27:48 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 27:49 ... and they're like, "That's our job."

Steven Bartlett 27:51 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 27:51 And then, of course, you have to get people to come with you, which is difficult sometimes-

Steven Bartlett 27:55 Like when I say-

Marcia Kilgore 27:55 ... 'cause they don't necessarily see it, so you've gotta figure out how to describe it to them, whether that's by pictures or words or however else.

Steven Bartlett 28:01 That's the sales part, right?

Marcia Kilgore 28:02 Yeah, I suppose so. It's also a lot of psychology.

Steven Bartlett 28:05 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 28:05 I mean, there's so many barriers, right? There, I mean, ugh, have you ever... I mean, do you read behavioral economics?

Steven Bartlett 28:12 Behavioral economics? Um, yes, I've read, like, The Psychology of Money, which I think is pretty much behavioral economics. And then I- I did a course in psychology, and, uh, I've, most of my books in there are psychology books, but-

Marcia Kilgore 28:22 There's so many fascinating books, like by Dan Ariely or Richard Thaler or Daniel Kahneman.

Steven Bartlett 28:28 I'm reading his book.

Marcia Kilgore 28:29 And they- they won, you know, Nobel Prizes for the behavioral economics.

Steven Bartlett 28:34 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 28:34 Which is the opposite kind of, of economics, and the theories of economics don't include human beings and their behavior and their emotions. So behavioral economics is all about how the emotions that we have interact with, uh, you know, with economics to create different, um, outcomes-

Steven Bartlett 28:51 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 28:51 ... from buying decisions that would normally be expected. People will rationalize things based on what they've done before.

Steven Bartlett 28:59 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 28:59 Right? So this mental framework around old things.

Steven Bartlett 29:02 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 29:02 So if you're trying to create something new, very often you have to relate it to something existing.

Steven Bartlett 29:08 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 29:09 And people can more easily understand what you're talking about because you can say, "Oh, it's like this."

Steven Bartlett 29:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 29:14 "But da, da, da, da, da," but very often it's hard for people, if they don't have a mental framework or a mental model of how something already works-

Steven Bartlett 29:21 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 29:21 ... if you come in with something really radical and disruptive-

Steven Bartlett 29:24 They- they don't know where to place that.

Marcia Kilgore 29:25 No.

Steven Bartlett 29:25 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 29:25 And so it- it's really so much easier, like with Beauty Pie, right? We're a buyers club. In England, apparently people don't know what a buyers club is. In America, everybody knows what a buyers club is, right? 'Cause there's, uh, Sam's Club and there's, uh, Costco, which isn't the same, uh, in England as it is in America, and Costco in America has, like, the highest household income per customer of any of-

Steven Bartlett 29:49 Oh, really?

Marcia Kilgore 29:49 Yeah, becau- because people just pull up in their Range Rover and buy, you know, ev- they- they sell diamonds at Costco, right?

Steven Bartlett 29:55 Oh, bless them.

Marcia Kilgore 29:55 But it's always a deal. So Beauty Pie, right, is kind of like Costco, but for luxury cosmetics and skincare and wellness products, and so we source from all these fantastic labs and we get the highest quality stuff, and then people can buy it. If you're a member of the club, you buy it-... cheaper than wholesale, but people in England don't know the concept.

Steven Bartlett 30:17 The concept.

Marcia Kilgore 30:17 So you have to think, "Well, it's kind of like Netflix." Right? But, but then you have to actually pay for your product, so it's not really like Netflix.

Steven Bartlett 30:24 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 30:24 So it's kind of like, you know, you have to-

Steven Bartlett 30:26 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 30:26 You're always doing this mental modeling so that people can understand it really easily.

Steven Bartlett 30:30 Understand it by comparison.

Marcia Kilgore 30:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:31 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 30:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:32 So you, with Bliss, you start this business. You, you move into your own location, and then talk t- talk to me about the, the experience of... 'Cause that was your first real kind of like business-

Marcia Kilgore 30:42 Business, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 30:43 ... business. Employees.

Marcia Kilgore 30:44 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 30:45 How was that in scaling that business until the point when it was, it was acquired? Speaker<|agent|><|en|>

Marcia Kilgore 30:49 Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it was a fantastic experience. We started quite small, and I had a tiny place called Let's Face It before I had Bliss, and I had probably five employees. Three rooms, so we had a manicurist, we had a receptionist, we had a couple of other facialists. On certain shifts, we'd have a massage therapist come in. Somebody did the laundry that wasn't me. That was, you know, I used to have to take the laundry out. On Avenue B, I would have to, like, carry these huge bags of laundry from the facials to Av- Avenue A and, like, do the laundry at night. (laughs) Which was also really crazy if you think back, you could never do this if you were older. This is definitely like, a, a 19, 20-year-old's gig-

Steven Bartlett 31:25 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 31:25 ... to be working all day and then going doing laundry on Avenue A and Seventh Street and, you know, all night to get the towels done. But, um, yeah, I opened Let's Face It first and had, you know, probably five, six, seven employees, and it was great because it was small enough for me to handle. I had, like, I had no experience with employees. So just understanding the operations of a business and scheduling and... Uh, I mean, I really rate doing it versus learning about it.

Steven Bartlett 31:54 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 31:54 And of course, I never learned about it, so I never learned how to go structure a business. I never ended up in business school. Um, I just did it, and then I saw the patterns along the way of what goes wrong when you do this or what you should look out for, and, uh, and especially a lot of patterns with people. I think that, you know, being able to recognize patterns is a part of either an emotional intelligence or just some- it's a type of intelligence that's been very helpful, and the older you get, the faster you recognize the patterns because you've just been around for longer.

Steven Bartlett 32:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 32:27 S- and you can see also, I'm sure you've seen this, types of people.

Steven Bartlett 32:31 Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 32:31 Yeah, so you know that type of person, and you kind of can almost suss people out. After you've spent 10 minutes with them, you kind of know what to expect or-

Steven Bartlett 32:40 It's kind of what you were describing earlier, but, like, understanding something by comparison. So, I have the same thing now in business where y- y- and you descri- you we're talking about there is, like, you've done more experiments when you get older, so-

Marcia Kilgore 32:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:50 ... you can kind of predict the outcome-

Marcia Kilgore 32:52 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 32:52 ... by now. That type of person behaves in that type of way and responds to that way.

Marcia Kilgore 32:55 And when you notice this happening-

Steven Bartlett 32:56 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 32:56 ... it's probably because of this, and so-

Steven Bartlett 32:59 Yeah, and it ends like this. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 32:59 Yes. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 33:00 So you go, "Fuck that." (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 33:01 Over. Exactly that. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 33:06 (laughs) Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 33:06 It's like, "Oh, no."

Steven Bartlett 33:07 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 33:07 "Here we go."

Steven Bartlett 33:07 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 33:08 But also I think there's a, I mean, there's a beauty of having it happen to you over and over and over again-

Steven Bartlett 33:13 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 33:13 ... because you realize, "Oh, here we go again," when this person does that thing and it ends like this.

Steven Bartlett 33:17 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 33:17 "Oh, the last time it ended like this. Well, I hired this person, and it ended like... And it's fine."

Steven Bartlett 33:22 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 33:22 And so you don't panic as much, right? When you're younger and you lose people who were working for you in your business, you think the world is gonna end.

Steven Bartlett 33:29 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 33:29 And then, you know, very often it's just different when you hire somebody else, right? And, and usually, uh, you, the, the new person will bring something completely additive to the table.

Steven Bartlett 33:39 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 33:40 And so it's actually a good thing.

Steven Bartlett 33:41 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 33:41 But it takes a long time to get to that point where when someone's quitting, you're going-

Steven Bartlett 33:47 It isn't... Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 33:47 ... "Great, see ya."

Steven Bartlett 33:49 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 33:49 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 33:49 It isn't, like, excruciatingly offensive-

Marcia Kilgore 33:52 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 33:52 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 33:52 Or, or that you lose sleep over it.

Steven Bartlett 33:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 33:54 You know, I rarely will lose sleep anymore if, if, uh-

Steven Bartlett 33:57 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 33:57 ... someone is going, because you always also think if they're not really thrilled to be here and, and working, like, at top level-

Steven Bartlett 34:04 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 34:05 ... then probably they'll be happier somewhere else, and, and that means more happiness will also come into that spot.

Steven Bartlett 34:09 And when you're young in business, the story you tell yourself about what that person quitting means is just deeply illogical and riddled with, like, fear and emotion.

Marcia Kilgore 34:16 Yes, and it's about you.

Steven Bartlett 34:17 It's, it's personal.

Marcia Kilgore 34:18 Yes, instead of it being about them.

Steven Bartlett 34:20 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 34:20 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 34:21 And, uh, but when you get older and you see these good people go and, you know, come and go, you realize that it is what it is, and it's unavoidable.

Marcia Kilgore 34:26 Yes, it's this ecosystem, isn't it?

Steven Bartlett 34:28 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 34:28 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:29 It's not s- and it's not a fight you could ev- ever win. No company has ever managed to keep 100% of their employees for a sustained period of time.

Marcia Kilgore 34:34 No.

Steven Bartlett 34:34 So, um, so what, what, how'd you get to that point, uh, exiting the business?

Marcia Kilgore 34:39 Oh, okay. So, well, at Bliss, so we, we launched Bliss in, I think, July of 2000, or sorry, 1996. So we opened... Uh, I had three treatment rooms before that in my little place called Let's Face It, and I opened, I think, nine treatment rooms, and then we put a nap room in in the next place, which was called Bliss.

Steven Bartlett 34:56 Right.

Marcia Kilgore 34:57 And, you know, back in the '90s, we didn't have, it wasn't social media. There was no way to really get the word out fast unless you had an article in a magazine, and because-

Steven Bartlett 35:08 Really? That really, like, moved the needle?

Marcia Kilgore 35:10 Oh, my g- It was a completely different moment.

Steven Bartlett 35:13 Crazy.

Marcia Kilgore 35:14 Now, you get a full page in New York Times, right?

Steven Bartlett 35:16 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 35:16 You get traffic to your website for a day.

Steven Bartlett 35:17 Yeah, nothing.

Marcia Kilgore 35:18 No, nothing, because it's so spliced up, right? Everything is so temporary. Back then, you got an article in Vogue, and your phone rang for 18 months.

Steven Bartlett 35:27 Fuck.

Marcia Kilgore 35:28 Yeah. It was so much easier. However, you had to be good enough to get an article in Vogue.

Steven Bartlett 35:33 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 35:33 So there were a million people doing what you did, but you had to make sure that the experience that you were offering was cool enough, beautiful enough, desirable, that all of your people were trained well, that the results were good, et cetera, et cetera. And so we were great, right? We gave great, great service.

Steven Bartlett 35:50 Can I ask you a question, though, on that?

Marcia Kilgore 35:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 35:51 Do you think service was better back in those days because there was less ability to... Because what you said there is, like, you had to be good enough to get on those very few big-

Marcia Kilgore 36:00 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 36:00 ... big stages.

Marcia Kilgore 36:01 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:01 Whereas these days, you can kind of ship products and ship people can pay to be seen much easier than they probably could've back then, I'm guessing, and get an endorsement from a, from a Vogue.

Marcia Kilgore 36:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:13 Um, so is it-

Marcia Kilgore 36:14 Well, it's not sustainable though, is it? How many times can you pay-

Steven Bartlett 36:16 Yeah, that's true.

Marcia Kilgore 36:16 ... if actually people don't come back more than once?

Steven Bartlett 36:18 And word of mouth then becomes your, uh, you know, starts to bring, tear your business down.

Marcia Kilgore 36:21 It's still the same.

Steven Bartlett 36:22 Right. Okay.

Marcia Kilgore 36:22 It's all the same. Like, today is the same, it's just split into different stuff.

Steven Bartlett 36:27 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 36:27 But if you can't keep that customer for more than one, two, three transactions, you might as well go home.

Steven Bartlett 36:33 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 36:33 Yeah. So you (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 36:35 Your days are numbered.

Marcia Kilgore 36:36 Yeah, you gotta figure it out at the beginning, like, what is gonna be so much better? How it's gonna be that much better? How are you going to deliver it consistently, right? Make sure that she is never, or he is never disappoint- or they are never, right-

Steven Bartlett 36:49 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 36:49 ... disappointed. And you, you have to look at, I mean, if you look at acronyms, right, this LTV to CAC stuff, which I hate thinking of it that way-

Steven Bartlett 36:58 Yes, I know.

Marcia Kilgore 36:58 ... but (laughs) 'cause it's humans, right?

Steven Bartlett 37:00 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 37:00 It's like, well, how many transactions? I- Is this person gonna come back for three years and be a, a loyal customer and order stuff from you six times a year? Or are they gonna order once and go, "Uh." Like, it has to be pretty compelling.

Steven Bartlett 37:11 Where do you start with Huel? Uh, my recommendation is, I think they have a starter box on the website where you can get a sample of all the products. You might not like some of the products. I don't love all of the products. I'm gonna be completely honest with you, I don't. But the ones that I do love, I could now not live without. And for me, my, my starting point was the Mixed Berry RTD. Didn't really like mixing protein powders before. Um, so I, when they had a, a ready-to-drink drink, I went for that. And secondly, the brand new protein powder, which I've talked about a couple of times in this podcast now, 100 odd calories in total, 26 of your vitamins and nutrients, and it tastes like a delicious smoothie one might get from some fast food establishment, but without all the crap in it. Give it a shot. I don't think you'll regret it. When you look back at why you were successful in that business, is it because of that attention to detail?

Marcia Kilgore 37:57 Oh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:57 In your-

Marcia Kilgore 37:58 In Blys? Oh my god, yes.

Steven Bartlett 38:00 How extreme were you?

Marcia Kilgore 38:01 So extreme. Extreme, extreme, extreme. I mean, everything from how you laid on that table, to what the sheets smelled like, to how you bolstered their knees so that the backs of their heels, when they were lying for a facial for 60 minutes, the backs of their heels wouldn't ache because their knees were elevated the right way, to the wax that you put on their hands, to how much you massaged them, to the responses that you would give, and we trained everybody in terms of the customer says this, it's all about them, right? It's about making them feel good, not only, you know, their face, their body, whatever you're treating, but mentally, right? It's not about you. There are no complaints. You don't whine about anything. It's all about making them thrilled, feel great about themselves, look great. They should walk out of there feeling like (inhales) . We had literally, I think the testament to it when you think back is crazy loyalty. So people would come in for their facials, and say they came in on Tuesday night at 7:00. Evenings, of course, were always booked. We closed at 10:00, but so you only have like a 6:30 to 8:00 or 8:00 to 9:30, or, you know, you kind of back it out, usually an hour and a half for a facial. So really, there were only two evening slots unless you left work early, and then there were three evening slots. 10 rooms, that means you got 30 people in in the evening. Other people, they wanna come in, they gotta, like, make an excuse to their boss and come during the day-

Steven Bartlett 39:25 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 39:26 ... right? Or take a day off work to come for their facial (laughs) -

Steven Bartlett 39:28 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 39:28 ... which people actually did, but people would book their spot every month for two years, right?

Steven Bartlett 39:36 Really?

Marcia Kilgore 39:36 So that they wouldn't miss it. And if they had to change, they would call and say, "Could you swap me with somebody else? Because I don't want to miss it." Or they would have a friend book a different slot, and then they would swap with their friend. And so we had a waiting list of people who just wanted to come in, and we were booked every day all day for, like, uh, probably a year in advance for those, those 10 treatment rooms. Um, but we would keep a waiting list, and if we didn't get people in, now, this is the day, no email, right? Okay. There was not email.

Steven Bartlett 40:06 Oh, there was no email.

Marcia Kilgore 40:06 No.

Steven Bartlett 40:07 I thought you got no emails one day. I was like, "Well, what did you do?"

Marcia Kilgore 40:08 No, there were no email.

Steven Bartlett 40:09 Okay, right. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 40:10 Yeah. So you had the phone-

Steven Bartlett 40:12 Right.

Marcia Kilgore 40:12 ... and you had your computer booking system.

Steven Bartlett 40:13 Sure.

Marcia Kilgore 40:14 But you couldn't just mass email everybody. So we would literally keep a list of people who were waiting for appointments, and at the end of each day, if we didn't get them in on a cancellation, we'd call every single one and apologize. And then tell the... So at 7:00, somebody would start the sorry calls.

Steven Bartlett 40:31 Do you still-

Marcia Kilgore 40:31 We called them the sorry calls, and you would just call-

Steven Bartlett 40:34 Wh- Whose idea was that?

Marcia Kilgore 40:35 Me.

Steven Bartlett 40:36 So my, my... You have clearly very, very high standards-

Marcia Kilgore 40:39 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 40:40 ... uh, for, for detail.

Marcia Kilgore 40:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:41 How would you police that amongst people that might not have the same high standards?

Marcia Kilgore 40:44 Well, they're not my people.

Steven Bartlett 40:46 So you fire them?

Marcia Kilgore 40:48 Well, they would probably be better elsewhere where their standards are more aligned-

Steven Bartlett 40:52 Oh my god.

Narrator 40:52 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 40:52 ... with the business that they were working for. I mean-

Steven Bartlett 40:54 That's very bureaucratic, I... Like... (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 40:56 Well, do you fi- I mean, you, you hire people, and then you see if they can operate in your... I mean, look, if you're the Olympic hockey team-

Steven Bartlett 41:04 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 41:04 ... and you've got a goalie who's terrible, they can't stay or you're not gonna win, are you?

Steven Bartlett 41:08 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 41:09 So it's not about firing them, it's like, is this a team member who belongs on this team? Yeah, fire, I guess you would say, yes, you would fire them. You would try.

Steven Bartlett 41:16 How uncompromising were you about the standards?

Marcia Kilgore 41:19 Very uncompromising. I mean, we also wrote thank you notes, right? So every person who came in for a treatment, whether it was an eyebrow wax or a manicure-

Steven Bartlett 41:25 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 41:25 ... or a facial or a massage, the person who did that treatment had to write a thank you note, and it got posted out that night.

Steven Bartlett 41:31 If you weren't uncompromising about those standards, those, that little thank you notes, that apologies, you know, f- for the waiting list, you, you-

Marcia Kilgore 41:37 Well, then they knew we were still thinking about them, right?

Steven Bartlett 41:39 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 41:39 So they thought, "I have a chance, they haven't forgotten about me." And we were grateful that they were waiting to come in and pay us money. I mean, they're giving you a paycheck, aren't they?

Steven Bartlett 41:50 Do you think you'd be sat here now if you hadn't been uncompromising with the standards, uh, in Blys all those years ago in 1996?

Marcia Kilgore 41:56 I think you know the answer to that question. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:59 Don't ask the questions. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 42:01 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:01 I'm busy doing-

Marcia Kilgore 42:01 Of course I wouldn't, 'cause it, you know, it follows-

Steven Bartlett 42:04 It compounds, right?

Marcia Kilgore 42:05 It f- Yeah, it compounds. You just know what good looks like, and then you know what people respond to, and that people want to be treated li- you know, with respect and, uh, you know, with gratitude, right? You're a customer. You're handing over your hard-earned money to somebody. They better be grateful.And that also keeps you going every day. Right, just, there's so much science about gratitude and how just starting your day with thinking, "Wow, I'm so lucky," right?

Steven Bartlett 42:33 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 42:33 And thinking about those things that you're lucky to have. I think, w- I've always operated businesses with that idea of, "I am grateful that people come to me to buy something, or they trust me with their face." Right?

Steven Bartlett 42:46 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 42:46 Or they'll get up at 7:00 in the morning and pay me $40 to teach them an aerobics class in their living room. I mean, they could be, they could be sponsoring so many other people, but they're-

Steven Bartlett 42:56 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 42:57 ... sponsoring me, and isn't that so generous of them?

Steven Bartlett 43:01 If I were to ask you on that, um, if I were to ask you, and this is tough to do in hindsight, but I think we're all capable of doing it. In that

Steven Bartlett 43:09 period of your life, in that, those early moments, and really throughout your career, what is it about you that made you successful? I mean, I've picked up on one, which is really high standards. The other one I've picked up on, uh, picked up on the minute you walked through the door, which is, you're just a very pleasant human being.

Marcia Kilgore 43:22 Thanks.

Steven Bartlett 43:22 And I'm like, all of these things, uh, if you, if they compound over, like, 30 years, you're gonna get to a really good place. But is there anything else within, you know, some people are visionaries-

Marcia Kilgore 43:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 43:31 ... they are, you know, whatever. Is there anything else where you say, "Do you know what? That's probably a trait of m- me that made me successful."

Marcia Kilgore 43:36 Yeah, I c- I connect the dots-

Steven Bartlett 43:38 Okay.

Marcia Kilgore 43:38 ... in new ways.

Steven Bartlett 43:39 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 43:40 So that, if that were to be kind of my thing-

Steven Bartlett 43:42 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 43:43 ... it's about, um, have you read the book, it's called Originals by Adam Grant?

Steven Bartlett 43:47 Yes, on there.

Marcia Kilgore 43:48 Yeah?

Steven Bartlett 43:48 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 43:49 So someone gave it to me-

Steven Bartlett 43:49 Nice.

Marcia Kilgore 43:49 ... actually, the art teacher in my son's school gave it to me and said, "This sounds like you." And I read it, and I was like, "Oh." You know- (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 43:57 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 43:57 ... when you think you're special? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 43:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Narrator 43:59 I mean, it's true.

Marcia Kilgore 43:59 And then you read a book, and you're like, "Nope, I'm not special."

Steven Bartlett 44:02 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 44:02 Because everybody, he's, he's got it down, like, every chapter is like, "Oh yeah, this is me. Oh yes, this is me, this is me." And, um, he talks about, in the book, about how, uh, you become, uh, an expert in your area, right? So you, you are very deep in expertise in one particular area, but then you're very curious about all this other stuff, which is me. I scan everything, right? Whether or not I'm really interested in it, I got newsletters coming out of my eyeballs, and I just kind of scan. I'll click on things, and sometimes I'll just force myself to read something that I have no interest in at all just because there might be something in there.

Steven Bartlett 44:35 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 44:35 Um, and, and I think from doing that, I find new ideas.

Steven Bartlett 44:41 That's what creativity is, isn't it?

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 Right? Just, there's so much science about gratitude and how just starting your day with thinking, "Wow, I'm so lucky," right?

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 And thinking about those things that you're lucky to have. I think w- I've always operated businesses with that idea of, I am grateful that people come to me to buy something, or they trust me with their face.

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 Right? Or they'll get up at 7:00 in the morning and pay me $40 to teach them an aerobics class in their living room. I mean, they could be, they could be sponsoring so many other people, but they're-

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 ... sponsoring me, and isn't that so generous of them?

Steven Bartlett 44:42 If I were to ask you on that, um, if I were to ask you, and this is tough to do in hindsight, but I think we're all capable of doing it. In that period of your life, in that, those early moments, and really throughout your career, what is it about you that made you successful? I mean, I've picked up on one, which is really high standards. The other one I've picked up on, I picked up on the minute you walked through the door, which is, you're just a very pleasant human being.

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 Thanks.

Steven Bartlett 44:42 And I'm like, all of these things, uh, if you, if they compound over, like, 30 years, you're gonna get to a really good place. But is there anything else within, you know, some people are visionaries-

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 44:42 ... they are, you know, whatever. Is there anything else where you say, "Do you know what? That's probably a trait of m- me that made me successful."

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 Yeah, I c- I connect the dots.

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Okay.

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 In new ways.

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 So that, if that were to be kind of my thing-

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 ... it's about, um, have you read the book, it's called Originals by Adam Grant?

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Yes, on there.

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 Yeah?

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 So someone gave it to me.

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Nice.

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 Actually, the art teacher in my son's school gave it to me and said, "This sounds like you." And I read it, and I was like, "Oh." You know? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 44:42 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 When you think you're special-

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it's

Narrator 44:42 ... (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 ... and then you read a book, and you're like, "Nope, I'm not-"

Steven Bartlett 44:42 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 "... special because everybody, he's, he's got it down." Like, every chapter is like, "Oh yeah, this is me. Oh yes, this is me. This is me." And, um, he talks about, in the book, about how, uh, you become, uh, an expert in your area, right? So you, you are very deep in expertise in one particular area, but then you're very curious about all this other stuff, which is me. I scan everything, right? Whether or not I'm really interested in it, I got newsletters coming out of my eyeballs, and I just kind of scan. I'll click on things, and sometimes I'll just force myself to read something that I have no interest in at all just because there might be something in there.

Steven Bartlett 44:42 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 44:42 Um, and, and I think from doing that, I find new ideas.

Steven Bartlett 44:43 That's what creativity is, isn't it?

Marcia Kilgore 44:43 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 44:43 I think.

Marcia Kilgore 44:43 But you have to feed it.

Steven Bartlett 44:44 Yeah, exactly.

Marcia Kilgore 44:44 It's like top of funnel, mid-funnel, bottom of funnel, right?

Steven Bartlett 44:47 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 44:47 And so if you don't have enough top of funnel-

Steven Bartlett 44:49 Curiosity.

Marcia Kilgore 44:49 ... you dry up at the bottom where-

Steven Bartlett 44:52 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 44:52 ... you know, there's nothing that comes through. And then being able to kind of edit a good idea from a mediocre idea f- right?

Steven Bartlett 44:58 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 44:59 I guess if you come up with a lot, so the more you feed the funnel, then the more stuff you have to look at, and then being able to know which one is the one that-

Steven Bartlett 45:06 Hm.

Marcia Kilgore 45:06 ... is actually going to resonate with enough people that it's actually a business. Because a lot of people, I think, can be quite naval gazing in, "Oh, I have this idea and people will care."

Steven Bartlett 45:16 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 45:16 So I can also be quite brutal with my own ideas and just go, "Pff, who cares?" Like, you, you think about it for a couple of months, and then you have to be able to not fall in love with your own ideas, kind of like with writing. So writers will say, a really great writer will say, "You can't fall in love with your own words." You need to be able to go into your writing and just chop it out, right?

Steven Bartlett 45:36 Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 45:36 Just so it's succinct and you, like, you can't love what you did, you have to hate what you did.

Steven Bartlett 45:41 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 45:41 And cut it all down so that just the crispy parts are there. And I think it's the same with ideas. You can spend a lot of time on stuff that nobody cares about, and so you have to be able to edit.

Steven Bartlett 45:55 So interesting. I completely agree. When I think about the, the successes I've had in my life and it was just a process of, like, multiple sources from multiple disciplines.

Marcia Kilgore 46:03 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 46:04 Pull one little dot, as you've said, from those d- different disciplines, and then when they come together, so it could be, like, cryptocurrencies, music-

Marcia Kilgore 46:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:11 ... and my knowledge of social media. And then you come together and you go, "Oh, together it makes something new and interesting-"

Marcia Kilgore 46:17 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 46:17 "... and valuable as a, these three different points of inspiration." Um, I was gonna ask you the question, when we were talking about that, I was like, can you t- teach someone, in your experience, to be better at thinking of good ideas?

Marcia Kilgore 46:28 Uh, I think you can provide

Marcia Kilgore 46:30 the, uh, environment.

Steven Bartlett 46:32 Okay.

Marcia Kilgore 46:33 Right? But not everyone's going to be able to do that. So there is gonna be a cohort of people who just don't think of new ideas. And they're probably really good at other things, and that's okay 'cause the world needs all of them, right?

Steven Bartlett 46:44 Hm.

Marcia Kilgore 46:44 Um, it's like Switzerland, like, they, you know, some people are plumbers, but they still make 100 grand a year and everybody's happy.

Steven Bartlett 46:50 Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 46:51 So if we put people in the right seats on the bus, there is such a position, and that, of course, is management, isn't it? It's trying to find when someone has talent, but not in a particular area, you make sure they're doing the right thing. Um, but I think you can, h- you see this a lot in business school, not that I've been there, but I've sat on a lot of panels with people who are-

Steven Bartlett 47:11 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 47:12 ... who are entrepreneurs, right?

Steven Bartlett 47:14 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 47:14 And they're entrepreneurs because they have done a business plan, or they've done a business model, they've modeled out what, what, you know, we can do this isn't... They haven't come up with, "Oh wait," just like you said-

Steven Bartlett 47:26 Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 47:26 "... if I connect this and this and do it this way, or," right? "Then I can make this happen." They've, they've said, "Well, I've gone to Harvard and now I'm gonna model out this business plan, and I think if we do this, that, and that, we can make, oh look, it's a profit."

Steven Bartlett 47:39 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 47:40 And, and so-

Steven Bartlett 47:40 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 47:40 ... there's two ways to come by it, and I guess both are valid. And especially these days, um, the, there's so much money in the universe that people will invest in so many things that you could actually get to a, a good result by just putting-

Steven Bartlett 47:58 Having tons of money.

Marcia Kilgore 47:58 ... a business plan down, yeah, having tons of money, and-

Steven Bartlett 48:01 And having gone to Harvard, which is much easier to get money.

Marcia Kilgore 48:04 Yes, and s- and that-

Steven Bartlett 48:05 Being in Silicon Valley and being a white male.

Marcia Kilgore 48:07 All that kind of stuff.

Steven Bartlett 48:08 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 48:08 Yeah. Um, so it works.

Steven Bartlett 48:10 Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 48:11 W- is it full of passion?

Steven Bartlett 48:13 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 48:14 I don't know. Maybe if you're passionate about making money, that's a passion. It's not my way-

Steven Bartlett 48:19 Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 48:19 ... to do it 'cause I just have to be passionate about whatever it is I'm making or selling or-

Steven Bartlett 48:23 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 48:24 ... you know, whatever I think I'm improving-If it's improving people's existence, then I'm passionate about it. And it was, like, so amazing to be at Bliss and have people coming in and walk out that door after their treatment feeling like (sighs) -

Steven Bartlett 48:41 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 48:41 ... so happy. And you could see it, right? Ha- and they just had such a great time and you thought, "Well, I'm responsible for that, and what a great thing to do all day." And then the same with Beauty Pie, right? Is, wow, people open up these boxes that they get delivered and it is like, it's like a fairytale.

Steven Bartlett 48:59 Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 48:59 And it didn't cost them much, so they can treat themselves 'cause everybody needs a little lift once in a while. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 49:04 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 49:05 And to be able to get this incredibly deluxe stuff for such a, an affordable price, you know every time one of those boxes opens up, that somebody is just feeling thrilled. And that is a reason to, like, show up in the morning, right?

Steven Bartlett 49:20 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 49:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:22 Yeah, one of them sounds like a really sustainable, fulfilling, intrinsically driven journey, and the other one sounds a bit like, yeah, like, you know, the pursuit of trying to get rich, which is, is harder to sustain, quite honestly-

Marcia Kilgore 49:32 I think so.

Steven Bartlett 49:32 ... because you, you-

Marcia Kilgore 49:33 On the hard days.

Steven Bartlett 49:34 On the hard d- I was gonna say, you know it gets excruciatingly difficult.

Marcia Kilgore 49:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:38 S- one day, there's gonna be many days that it, it sh- you'd probably quit if you weren't just truly just living for it-

Marcia Kilgore 49:44 Obsessed.

Steven Bartlett 49:44 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 49:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:45 Regardless of remuneration. But speaking of money, you sold Bliss at some point.

Marcia Kilgore 49:49 Yeah, so in 1999, we had quite a few, uh, interested buyers.

Steven Bartlett 49:53 Is that three years after?

Marcia Kilgore 49:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:55 That's quick.

Marcia Kilgore 49:56 We were great. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 49:57 You could tell. Three, selling the company three years later, uh, you know.

Marcia Kilgore 50:01 Yeah, at my, at the age I was-

Steven Bartlett 50:02 How old were you?

Marcia Kilgore 50:03 ... was quite hilarious.

Steven Bartlett 50:03 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 50:03 Would've been, I would've been 30.

Steven Bartlett 50:05 You were super young.

Marcia Kilgore 50:06 Yeah, 30 when we sold it.

Steven Bartlett 50:07 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 50:07 Uh, so I sold 70% to LVMH.

Steven Bartlett 50:10 That's nuts.

Marcia Kilgore 50:10 It was nuts. You know, we had a few different large cosmetic conglomerates kind of circling around.

Steven Bartlett 50:17 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 50:17 Um, one came in and gave me a big presentation and they had champagne ready and were talking about how they'd put me in a studio by myself and I could just be creative. You know, at this, you're talking to a girl who does facials and waxes people's legs. Do I wanna go to a studio by myself? I mean, my favorite thing was knowing I'd look at my list of who was coming in that day and it was like, "Oh, I get to see this person, this person," th- the, that, the joy was the, all the people, right? So they, "Oh, we're gonna give you a loft." And I went, right? And then we had another one who came in and said, "We wanna turn your spa into a spa under this brand name," which I thought, "Why, why would you buy it if you-"

Steven Bartlett 50:54 Change the name.

Marcia Kilgore 50:54 Yeah. Um, and then there was LVMH who flew me to Paris on the Concorde. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 50:59 No, they didn't.

Marcia Kilgore 51:00 Yes, they did.

Steven Bartlett 51:01 No.

Marcia Kilgore 51:01 And took me out for lunch and then, you know-

Steven Bartlett 51:04 Textbook LVMH.

Marcia Kilgore 51:04 It was, it was quite fabulous though, I have to admit. It was like-

Steven Bartlett 51:06 Yeah. It sounds it, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 51:07 ... wow. And it w- it was hilarious when I got back to Brooklyn, when I flew back from Paris on the Concorde and it was the middle of the West Indian Day Parade in Brooklyn. So I'm in a taxi from the airport going back to the spa, although it was a holiday day, and I was going, we had redone the floors and I was going just to make sure that, uh, everything was dry and move the furniture back into place. So I'm (laughs) I'm on the subway 'cause I couldn't get a taxi to take me all the way in 'cause the West Indian Day Parade was blocking Flatbush Avenue. And I was on the subway going towards my Prince Street stop and there was Coke spilled all over it, not Coke, but you know like-

Steven Bartlett 51:42 Coca-Cola.

Marcia Kilgore 51:42 Yeah, Coca-Cola spilled all over the seats and drunk people everywhere and I'm standing there going, "I wonder if I'm the only person on this subway who was on the Concorde-" (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:52 This morning.

Marcia Kilgore 51:52 "... this morning." (laughs) I thought, "Yeah, probably, probably all those other people are in their car services."

Steven Bartlett 51:58 Nuts.

Marcia Kilgore 51:59 I- i- it was pretty funny. So anyway, they were the most interesting. They loved the business. We were kind of hot at the time. They were looking for American acquisitions. I think they had moved Sephora also into America at the time, so they thought it would be kind of a good partnership. And, and, you know, the price was right. And I thought, "Well, I've been starving for, since I moved to New York," right? Every month it was kind of like, "Do I have enough money to pay the rent?"

Steven Bartlett 52:22 Blimey.

Marcia Kilgore 52:23 Yeah. And I just thought, "Well, is this gonna happen again?" You don't know. You don't know if you'll ever be offered like a, a big chunk of change like that. So I-

Steven Bartlett 52:32 And you 100% own the company at this point?

Marcia Kilgore 52:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:34 Yeah, so you, and-

Marcia Kilgore 52:35 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:35 ... you hadn't raised money outside capital. They bought 70% of the business for ten-

Marcia Kilgore 52:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:39 ... tens of millions we'll just-

Marcia Kilgore 52:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:40 ... say. Right?

Marcia Kilgore 52:41 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 52:41 Unbelievable.

Marcia Kilgore 52:42 Yeah, I know, it was really great.

Steven Bartlett 52:42 I mean, you could've just stopped there, right? You could've just stopped there and-

Marcia Kilgore 52:45 Oh my god, I was 30. What, what are you gonna do?

Steven Bartlett 52:47 Yeah, I know. I'm, I'm a hypocrite 'cause I d- yeah. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 52:50 Yeah. You're not gonna just stop there? What, what, you're gonna go, like, stand at your fridge all day?

Steven Bartlett 52:54 But I mean, most people will just land that one big bag in their life, uh, if they're lucky, if they're extremely lucky and in the minority. But then you went again and you created a business called Soap & Glory, which-

Marcia Kilgore 53:05 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:05 ... a lot of people will know in this country.

Marcia Kilgore 53:06 Yes, yeah, it was big.

Steven Bartlett 53:07 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 53:07 Soap & Glory was big.

Steven Bartlett 53:08 Really big.

Marcia Kilgore 53:09 A- at the

Marcia Kilgore 53:10 time, you know, it was, um, if I was, I was reading a lot of newspapers and there was a lot of collaborating going on between kind of designer brands and s- you know, the high street. And I thought, "Wouldn't it be fun just to kind of make a, a really great brand, um, that has..." We couldn't do, at drugstore prices you can't really do high quality, like super high quality product and sell it at a drug- at a drugstore price when you're going through the retail food chain because there's all the markups, right? So you-

Steven Bartlett 53:41 Markets, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 53:41 ... you had to try and make really, like, I'd say qu- I wouldn't say high quality, but good quality products for a price point and make them really fun. And I just thought, "You know what? Let me try doing something that's using all the puns." I'm a bit of a writer, so I love to write copy. And so it was all about making the products kind of fun and, you know, good quality for just the right price to kind of, you know, be mass. And I launched in Harvey Nichols and it was actually quite a good success, but Harvey Nichols only has Knightsbridge and then a few other stores around the country. And I knew I wasn't gonna be able to make much of a splash just being in Harvey Nichols on a few shelves. Um, so Boots came to us and said, you know, "Would you like to roll out into different Boots stores?" That was really interesting 'cause I thought, "This is gonna be amazing. Oh my god, we're gonna go into Boots. We're gonna make like millions." (laughs) And I remember, I think we were in-... 300 boots stores and you just, for some reason, you just think, "Okay, if it's in Boots..." Right? Every brand you see in Boots you think, "Oh, they're making a fortune."

Steven Bartlett 54:43 Yeah. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 54:43 Um, and I remember we launched and I think that the first week, I think we did $300.

Steven Bartlett 54:51 Oof.

Marcia Kilgore 54:51 Yeah. And then I couldn't figure out why, so I go into my local Boots and it's on the bottom shelf.

Steven Bartlett 54:56 Ah.

Marcia Kilgore 54:57 And so that was, they don't reset the shelves for 10 months. Okay, so you start just thinking, "Oh my God, I'm gonna be making $300 a week for 10 months until they reset the shelves and I fight my way to the top."

Steven Bartlett 55:10 I need to get back into just the- the gap there. In that period though, when you've- you've left Bliss and you're- you're not doing anything now, you have a lot of money so you don't really need to-

Marcia Kilgore 55:18 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:18 ... worry about the bills or the rent anymore-

Marcia Kilgore 55:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 55:20 ... or anything like that. I- I just, I'm just intrigued because I've recently-

Marcia Kilgore 55:23 I took a month off.

Steven Bartlett 55:24 Okay. One month?

Marcia Kilgore 55:25 Yeah. It wasn't enough.

Steven Bartlett 55:27 That's not a long time. That's not a long time to say.

Marcia Kilgore 55:28 It wasn't enough. It wasn't enough. I took six months between my last sale and figuring out what to do next. Six months was better. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:38 One month. One month. So wh- in that one month what are you doing? You're doing-

Marcia Kilgore 55:42 I went on holiday to the south of France.

Steven Bartlett 55:43 Okay, so you go on holiday to France, then you come back and- and you're just str- straight into it?

Marcia Kilgore 55:48 Yeah, yeah. Just, you know, ideas. I mean, I ha- always have ideas so I'll be walking down the street and I'll get an idea, so you kind of jot them down, and then the ones that keep bubbling up to the surface, those are the good ones.

Steven Bartlett 55:56 I love- I love this.

Steven Bartlett 55:57 I read about- I read- I read about you talking about this because I- it rang so true to me because we all g- people like you and, um, creative people generally will get into-

Marcia Kilgore 56:06 And you.

Steven Bartlett 56:06 Yeah, I don't wanna-

Marcia Kilgore 56:07 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:07 ... put myself into it. I'm trying to be humble here. Um, p- we'll get lots of ideas lots of the time-

Marcia Kilgore 56:12 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:12 ... and the process in which you decide which ones are goers and- and which ones should just be disregarded, um, I find fascinating. And I've only been able to understand it, um, in hindsight, why I pick certain ideas and why I just let other ones go. But how do you filter out the ones that are worth pursuing and the ones that aren't?

Marcia Kilgore 56:31 Okay, so there's something I call the so what test.

Steven Bartlett 56:34 Okay.

Marcia Kilgore 56:35 So you ask yourself, "So what?" (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 56:38 Right.

Marcia Kilgore 56:38 Tell yourself your idea.

Steven Bartlett 56:39 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 56:40 And then ask, "Well, so what?" And if you cannot explain why you would wanna do that-

Steven Bartlett 56:45 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 56:45 ... or why anybody should care in one sentence-

Steven Bartlett 56:48 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 56:48 ... it's not a good enough idea.

Steven Bartlett 56:50 Nice.

Marcia Kilgore 56:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:51 But you also let them sit for a while, right?

Marcia Kilgore 56:53 Yeah, because there's so many. You have to. The ones that are just sorta average, they just, they go away, right? And the good ones kind of stay at the top and you think-

Steven Bartlett 57:01 Persist.

Marcia Kilgore 57:01 ... "Oh, I've gotta do that. I've gotta do that. That's really good. I would buy that." Of course, here's the other cheat, right? I only sell stuff that I would buy.

Steven Bartlett 57:09 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 57:10 So I can't, uh, you know, it would be difficult for me if I'm trying to create a business centered around something that I don't want or have a need for, I don't know if I would be as good at it.

Steven Bartlett 57:20 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 57:21 Uh, super easy to do Beauty Pie because I love beauty products, I love candles, I love supplements. I know all the good labs. I've worked with them for 30 years.

Steven Bartlett 57:29 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 57:29 I know where to get the good stuff. I'm gonna buy it anyway. I would like to buy the high quality stuff. I don't wanna have to pay retail. Okay.

Steven Bartlett 57:38 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 57:38 So obvious, that one, right? With Fit Flop, it was I could not find a pair of shoes that actually felt comfortable on my feet and I love, you know, I love, uh, fashion, okay?

Steven Bartlett 57:50 I can't believe how many businesses you've started and how many of them have done so well.

Marcia Kilgore 57:54 It's not that many.

Steven Bartlett 57:55 It is a lot of businesses.

Marcia Kilgore 57:56 I have one more.

Steven Bartlett 57:56 It-

Marcia Kilgore 57:57 I have one more, but it's not... I can't tell you. I'll kill you.

Steven Bartlett 57:59 It's not s-

Marcia Kilgore 58:00 I can't. Yeah. I can't. We can't.

Steven Bartlett 58:00 ... Soap E Doop A?

Marcia Kilgore 58:02 Yeah, that also-

Steven Bartlett 58:03 Oh, you forgot about that one. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 58:04 Yeah, but- but actually that one is taking a hiatus because our supplier-

Steven Bartlett 58:08 Okay.

Marcia Kilgore 58:08 ... shut down during COVID.

Steven Bartlett 58:10 Okay, I'll do that for my notes.

Marcia Kilgore 58:10 And so it was, yeah, well, it's- it's still around except our supplier shut down and-

Steven Bartlett 58:16 Fine.

Marcia Kilgore 58:16 ... so we have to reformulate everything.

Steven Bartlett 58:18 So Soap & Glory is a business that even I know and I'm not, you know, wincing-

Marcia Kilgore 58:21 Yeah, you're not a cosmetics guy?

Steven Bartlett 58:23 Yeah. Well, you know, well, uh-

Marcia Kilgore 58:24 Because at Christmas at Boots-

Steven Bartlett 58:26 Some would say I am. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 58:27 (laughs) Oh, maybe you'll be a-

Steven Bartlett 58:28 No one would say that.

Marcia Kilgore 58:28 You can be a Beauty Pie-

Steven Bartlett 58:29 No one would say I am.

Marcia Kilgore 58:29 ... beauty guy.

Steven Bartlett 58:30 Yeah. But no, I know- I know the brand.

Marcia Kilgore 58:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:32 It's a, well, very, very well-known brand, so.

Marcia Kilgore 58:34 Because we used to take over, the- that week before Christmas at Boots-

Steven Bartlett 58:38 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 58:38 ... we would literally have hundreds of thousands of those big pink bags-

Steven Bartlett 58:42 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 58:42 ... that people would be able to buy for a really crazy deal.

Steven Bartlett 58:45 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 58:45 That was also, I guess, a learning, just seeing, like, how much people love a deal.

Steven Bartlett 58:50 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 58:50 Um, and every- it was almost every year that we would be this sort of Christmas bumper bag. I would see women leaving Boots with, like, three on each arm 'cause they were buying them for all of their friends.

Steven Bartlett 59:02 W- when you think of that business, w- why was it successful and, um, what was your- what's your sort of emotional memor- recollection and memory of that phase

Steven Bartlett 59:11 of your life?

Marcia Kilgore 59:12 Um, gosh, that's a- another deep question.

Steven Bartlett 59:15 All of these are deep questions.

Marcia Kilgore 59:16 Yeah. Okay, so well, emotional recollection, I mean, it was great to be able to build something new.

Steven Bartlett 59:20 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 59:20 It was great to be able to build something that was popular in a different country.

Steven Bartlett 59:24 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 59:24 Right? So you didn't just do it in America, you also could do it in the UK.

Steven Bartlett 59:28 Oh God, you're like Ronaldo.

Marcia Kilgore 59:29 Yeah. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 59:31 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 59:31 Maybe I'm not so good with a ball but-

Steven Bartlett 59:33 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 59:34 ... um, it was exciting to do something mass-

Steven Bartlett 59:38 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 59:38 ... like at mass price points-

Steven Bartlett 59:39 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 59:40 ... because you could reach more people, so more people could afford the- the joy that you were trying to bring through that product. Uh, so that's always really nice because having something that's only affordable, while I love high quality things, the exclusion, uh, of people that comes along with a luxury price point I don't like so much, right? So the idea of luxury for affordable, of course, is- is the- also the holy grail. Um, so building... It was, you know, building Soap & Glory was also a real experience in terms of learning how to deal with, uh, a retailer who really-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:17 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 1:00:17 ... had a monopolistic grip on a country, right? 'Cause Boots was the power, you know, the all powerful.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:24 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 1:00:24 Uh, so that was a real learning curve.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:26 How big did Soap & Glory get?

Marcia Kilgore 1:00:28 I think we sold, we were selling probably 100 plus million dollars worth of stuff a year through Boots.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:36 Fuck, that's a lot of money.

Marcia Kilgore 1:00:37 It was not bad. It was, it was biggish.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:38 Not bad. Oh, come on. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 1:00:39 It was biggish.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:39 (laughs) Biggish.

Marcia Kilgore 1:00:41 Yeah. It was big. I mean, it could, could be, it could've been bigger.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:44 Could've been bigger. Of course.

Marcia Kilgore 1:00:45 Yeah, I mean-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:45 It could've been bigger. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 1:00:46 Yeah. It was great. For me, I, I don't, you know, what's the difference between like 50, 100, 100-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:50 Yeah. The same.

Marcia Kilgore 1:00:51 It's, yeah. You just-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:53 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 1:00:53 It's like a ... But after you can pay your rent and eat and buy as many T-shirts as you need-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 1:00:58 ... you know, your life doesn't change that much, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:01:00 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:00 But you want to, you wanna bring out more and see how much you can do and see if you can offer even-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:06 How far you can take it.

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:06 ... yeah, better stuff.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:07 So you sold that business, I guess, to boots?

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:10 To boots.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:10 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:10 Yeah, in, uh, 2014.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:13 2014? Not so long ago.

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:15 It really wasn't.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:15 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:16 No. About seven-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:17 16, 17 years, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:19 Seven years, yeah. Yeah, they really wanted it.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:20 And how did you feel when you, when you, when you know, they made the offer, you accepted the offer? Did it feel again like the, was it, was there a loss of orientation in your life?

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:29 No, because ...

Steven Bartlett 1:01:30 Oh, here we go.

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:31 Yeah, well, at the same time, I had Fifth Love, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:01:33 Okay.

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:33 So my footwear brand is also big ... ish. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:01:37 Yeah, I've heard about it. Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:38 We're going to biggish again. Uh, you know, 65 countries. We sell a lot of shoes.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:42 Could be bigger. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:43 It could be bigger.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:44 I'm joking.

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:45 And it's gonna be bigger.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:46 I'm joking.

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:46 Um, and yeah, and so I sort of had one thing to still grip onto-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:52 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 1:01:52 ... and to really focus on. And to make sure that that quality and, and dream about what kind of product we're gonna produce for the next season, it's all kind of the same, right, as product development and then rolling it out and trying to learn, you know, given that feedback loop that you get from, from the product that you're launching.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:08 Remarkable. Um, your, your partner's also an entrepreneur?

Marcia Kilgore 1:02:12 Yes. Yep. He does now. Costa Rican, um,

Marcia Kilgore 1:02:17 ecotourism.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:19 How, how is that? Working with, uh, not working with. How is it to, to have a, a partner that's also in the field of entrepreneurship? 'Cause you know what it is, I'm gonna ask you a question here 'cause I'm super curious and maybe you can help me. I've always wondered if, as an entrepreneur, it would make more sense to be with an entrepreneur or someone that just does nothing, sits at home just, you know-

Marcia Kilgore 1:02:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:41 Nice and simple.

Marcia Kilgore 1:02:42 Be- being there. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:02:42 Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Marcia Kilgore 1:02:44 Uh, well, it depends, I suppose, on your appetite for risk and if you have risk anymore. Right, so if you've already, um, managed to, um, you know, sell something and you have a little bit of money in the bank, then having two people going out there and risking it all-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:58 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 1:02:59 ... is okay-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:00 Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 1:03:00 ... because you have something to fall back on. I think certainly having a partner who understands what you're going through day-to-day and will listen to you.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:07 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 1:03:07 You know, we talked about being able to see someone.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:09 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 1:03:09 Uh, it's so important to have someone who sees you.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:12 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 1:03:12 And who can understand what it might be like for you on a day that's really hard and offer you that kind of support. Um, my husband is great with that. Like he, I couldn't ask for somebody who supports me more. And he does the stuff that I, you know, necessarily don't wanna do in terms of that family stuff, and we pick up the, the, uh, different, um, programs, I suppose, really beautifully together 'cause he'll take care of some stuff and I take care of other stuff and-

Steven Bartlett 1:03:38 And when you come home, uh, are you good at sort of compartmentalizing the work stuff and then like switching off and being present with f- family?

Marcia Kilgore 1:03:48 Maybe not always.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:49 I appreciate the honesty.

Marcia Kilgore 1:03:51 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:03:51 I'm not gonna tell anybody. (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 1:03:53 I don't know if you can be, right? Because sometimes work is really interesting also, right? So I've got two teenage boys, right? They sometimes come out of their rooms.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:02 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 1:04:03 Sometimes not. And so sometimes I'll be on social media-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:07 Yeah, yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 1:04:07 ... chatting with customers, right? Giving them advice, telling them what to use on their skin. It's actually, it's quite social as it is social media.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:15 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 1:04:15 Uh, I go home at night because I'm hoping they will come out of their rooms and I can spend time with them. But (laughs) we, we have dinner and then they usually go wanna, you know, play video games because all their friends are on video games. So if they do come out of their room, you know, at some point, I might be in the middle of something. Am I really good at just turning that off and saying, "I am here for you, young man."

Steven Bartlett 1:04:38 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 1:04:38 Not always. Sometimes. But sometimes what I'm doing is actually more interesting than talking about the basketball game that, you know, the NBA blah, blah, blah or whatever it is, and I'm maybe not the best at switching attention gears. But I'm trying.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:55 (laughs)

Marcia Kilgore 1:04:55 And I'm mindful of it.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:56 Yeah, yeah. Do you, is it something that you, you think you want to be better at?

Marcia Kilgore 1:05:00 Yes, absolutely.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:01 Yeah?

Marcia Kilgore 1:05:01 Yes. More of that in the moment, right, really trying to live just that moment. There's a great podcast. Have you ever listened to Making Sense with Sam Harris?

Steven Bartlett 1:05:12 Yes, once or twice. I'm a big Sam Harris fan.

Marcia Kilgore 1:05:13 Me too.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:14 Thank you. Yeah.

Marcia Kilgore 1:05:14 Yeah, so it's, you know, it is about okay, you're here right now and live it and, and if you could live every moment over again 'cause you only get one shot, he, you know how he has those little daily, there's like a little daily thing that pops up and you can listen to, and I think he was talking once about how you have one opportunity to live this moment. And you have one opportunity to have an interaction with someone that is this interaction.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:38 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 1:05:38 Like, make it good. Right?

Steven Bartlett 1:05:40 Hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 1:05:40 And just thinking, "Well, I can either, you know, look at this as an opportunity and, and a gift, or I can be down and negative about it." And you just choose. So I try as much as possible to choose even if I have, you know, cranky teenagers or whatever work thing going on-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:00 Mm-hmm.

Marcia Kilgore 1:06:00 ... to choose to really be positive about the fact that I'm given the opportunity to live that moment.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:06 Do you ever worry that, um, you'll regret being so busy and missing