The Diary of a CEOHow To Take Full Control Of Your Mind: Prof. Steve Peters, The Chimp Paradox | E96
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,038 words- 0:00 – 3:37
Intro
- SPProf. Steve Peters
My work now is helping people to optimize performance, get a good relationship with themself, finding their peace, happiness, confidence.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Professor Steve Peters, he's a world-leading psychiatrist, arguably one of the most famous, renowned, and important of our time.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
You will come out the other side much better. People do recover from broken relationships. People don't know what the next relationship will be. Not everybody is the same. What tends to happen is people either don't recognize they're getting stressed, and it becomes chronic, and they've got these behaviors which are damaging to them, as people think stress is where we're wringing our hands and panicking, and that's not really true. Stress comes in all different forms and often isn't recognized. Even for people in a much more serious situation where they become, uh, suicidal, you can tell them with honesty there is always a future, and things do change, and feelings do move. You know, we have to accept that reality. We cannot know everything about the person we're with. And if our chimps switch a panicky a bit and want guarantees and want... then we're, we're going down the wrong path, and we have to tell our chimp, "You can't do this."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Professor Steve Peters, he's a world-leading psychiatrist, arguably one of the most famous, renowned, and important of our time. He's also a doctor and a hugely successful author. Some of you, most of you will know him from his bestselling book, The Chimp Paradox, which has sold millions of copies worldwide, and that's a book that actually saved the lives of some people very close to me. He's worked with elite level athletes, including Steven Gerrard and the England football team, and Ronnie O'Sullivan, gold medal Olympians like Sir Chris Hoy and Victoria Pendleton, as well as business leaders and CEOs, and he helps them overcome what he calls mental dysfunction. He's helped them optimize for performance, and he's really helped them get out of their own way, and in many respects in life, we're all in our own way. Steve's invented this groundbreaking concept called the CHIMP model, and it focuses on how there's these kind of three parts to our brain. The first part is called the chimp, which is our sort of desire to be impulsive and irrational and emotional and short-term. The second part is what he calls the human, and you'll hear him talk about this, which is logical and rational and thinks in terms of facts and thinks things through in the long term. And the third part is what he calls the computer, which is our set of core values and beliefs. Steve's work focuses on how we can manage and control the interaction between these three parts of our brain, and we all have these three compartments within our brains, and if you can understand them, if you can understand these three elements, it gives you greater power to utilize them to be happy, successful, however you define it, and to live a much more fulfilled life. Man, this episode gave me so many personal epiphanies, so many sort of penny drop moments and so many personal realizations. It's one of the podcasts that I, I, I know I'll reflect on going forward and I know for sure will change my life forever. So, this is one where I implore you to listen to the entire conversation, 'cause I think it will change your life too. So, without further ado, sorry, that was a very long intro, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Professor Steve Peters, thank you for, for joining me today. I've, uh, been a big fan of your work, as has a lot of people close to me in my life for a long, long period of time. Um, where I wanted
- 3:37 – 6:41
The basis of your work
- SBSteven Bartlett
to start with you is w- with a question, which is how do you define yourself professionally? And I've read, you know, I've read about the diverse amount of work you've done across multiple sectors with sports stars, with leaders, with, with the NHS, with the, the Fire Service, with, um, you know, a, a broad spectrum of people. But what is the sort of basis of your work and how do you define what you do?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Okay. Well, thanks for inviting me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Um, coming from a medical background, I define myself as a doctor who is specialized in the mental health, um, area of medicine, uh, and then moved a little bit sidewards into just mentoring and helping people to gain understanding and insights into the way that their mind functions, and then applying that into wherever they take me. So, effectively I'm an educator, um, with a medical basis. But I still have patients I would treat, but generally my work now is helping people to optimize performance or get a good relationship with themself, um, finding their peace, the kind of things people want, happiness, confidence, or even things like high performing teams. So, a vast spectrum, but the, the basis of all of this is do you understand what's going on inside your head? Do you understand yourself?
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what's the... 'cause some people are easily confused between psychiatry and psychology. What's the distinction as you see it?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Well, the distinction is that psychologists are experts in usually, uh, a specific area within psychology, so educational psychologists would look at how we educate children and, and adults and how they learn best. Whereas you might get a clinical psychologist, they'll work with someone who's got maybe a depressive illness and look at the cognitive aspects of that, the way we think and behave. Um, a doc- um, psychiatry is a medical doctor, so we tend to treat mental illness as opposed to dysfunction.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So, mental illness is where we know that the, in simplistic terms, the brain isn't functioning well, something is going wrong, often it's transmitter systems, so we treat them, um, but when we might find as a psychiatrist that it's dysfunction, so then we would do overlap work with what psychologists would do.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right. I got you.Um, you- your book, The Chimp Paradox, really focused on psychological dys- dysfunction.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yes. Um, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, and was that born out of your- that was born out of your work in psychiatry?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yes, I mean, when I was in the NHS as a consultant, for many years, um, people come through the door who had mental illness, which then we would treat and, and support and help them get them on their feet. Um, but also a significant number of people came through the door who didn't need treatment per se, they d- they hadn't... The mind was fully functional and operating well, they didn't know how to operate it, so because they didn't operate well with the mind, it was creating a lot of emotional distress, and so they would present as if it were an illness, but in my, my book, it wasn't an illness, so I worked with that dysfunction. And out of that work was born the neuroscience basis of the, the Chimp Model, to say, "Look, let's have a look at the brain and see what is the brain actually doing and how did it develop and how can we apply that to you today?"
- 6:41 – 12:53
Mental health
- SPProf. Steve Peters
- SBSteven Bartlett
I wanna go down those two paths. So I wanna go down the, the mental health path and then also the mental dysfunction path.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So, if we start with the mental health path-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, there's, there's this kind of prevailing narrative in culture at the moment that mental health disorders are on the increase and that people are getting more and more depressed and more and more anxious. Um, in your view, is that, is that accurate?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
This is a complex topic. Uh, the answer would be that we're more aware of it, so it's probably reported more, but, um, mental illness per se will- can sometimes be born out of mental dysfunction. So, if we get stressed in our work, say, and we don't manage it well, or in relationships and we don't manage that well, then we know that given time, for many individuals, the neurotransmitters in the brain start to malfunction.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So we can create, effectively, an illness by not managing the mind well. Or alternatively, it can spontaneously malfunction, so people can have a great life, look after themself, yet still suddenly go into a clinical depression because the system has failed, much like, say, a thyroid might fail. They haven't done anything wrong, it's just the system has failed.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And is the- the- the- the changing world we live in, the more sort of digitalized world where, I don't know, our lives are being, I guess, more optimized for, I guess, productivity and, um, n- uh, optimized against things like exercise, for example. You know, I can order my lunch by clicking a button now, and I can meet dates just by swiping on my phone. Um, is it your belief that that changed world, the- a more digital world, a more social media-centric world, the world we live in today, is more conducive with mental illness?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
I think, again, I have to talk in broad terms.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Everybody's unique, which means that somebody will find that really advantageous-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
... to just press a button and the lunch arrives, and they don't need that people interaction. We're all on a spectrum. The vast majority of us are built to interact. We are gregarious by nature, and we like people around us-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
... and we like to have relationships. So clearly, if somebody's isolated in an office or working from home, then they will miss that aspect, so if they don't actually compensate in some way which satisfies their need for this interaction, then it's likely they will start to become distressed.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So in that sense, I think because most of us are gregarious and we're more and more isolated, uh, if we don't make steps to change that round, it's likely people will find they get more stressed and more anxiety will appear and more clinical depression may appear.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, I ask that question just 'cause I'm, I'm- I- I'm- I'm unsure, as you said- said at the start of your answer, whether it's just because of awareness has increased around mental illness or if, um, the world we live in now is make- is not, uh, meeting our, I guess, our fundamental human needs.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
I think it's a bit of everything, and I think, therefore, researchers will look at the idea that, for example, social media has a massive input, which it wasn't there. So we go back 20 years and there wasn't social media as such, and now it's become very prominent in many people's lives, and w- we know that most of us don't respond well to criticism-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
... and, and if it's public criticism, then we really don't respond well. So that can be an extremely destructive force on people. However, if people use social media appropriately and, and are able to block out any of these negative comments that people make, then they'll probably find it an advantageous thing to actually communicate with friends and family. So again, it's- it's not so much what's happening in society, it's how we interact with it and learn what works for us as individuals. So it's stopping and getting time to think, "What are my needs?" And a lot of people don't really know that, you have to discover them, and then, "How do I put them in place that work for me?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
And on- on that point of needs, as it relates to sort of mental- g- good mental health-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, are you able to point out some fundamental things that we all need to have, um, or things that are most conducive, tip- generally, broadly, with good mental health?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah, so if you came to me and you said, "Right, can we just do a, like, a bit of a psychological profile? Let me have a look at my life and see how I'm going," then often people are not what we call great historians, they- they don't give me information, I've got to sort of pull the information out with appropriate questions. Uh, and there are areas, yes, I would touch on. So first of all, I would certainly look at the relationship you have with yourself. What's your own self-image, self-worth, uh, self-confidence? I would like to see where you stand in those areas, 'cause we start with you. If- if someone's in a good place, then it's likely they'll cope with the world, but if someone's not in a good place with themself and within themself, then it's unlikely they'll cope with the world, because your starting point is not good. And when I've done that, then we look at things like relationships. So you wanna see what kind of relationships do you particularly need or want at this point in your life and what kind of relationships have you got and are you maximizing them? Are they dysfunctional? You know, is it to do with the communication between you? We'll look at communication. But apart from that, I'll- I'll go to fundamental drives, you know, do you recognize the drives you have? And the obvious ones are eating drives, um, the drive for sex, for security, for territory. We'll look at how you apply those, because these are drives that all of us have-...to greater or lesser extent. Well, sometimes it's hidden drives. So one of the ones is a, a purpose, uh, recognition, you know, a feeling of value in what you do or who you are. So these are drives we all have, but often they get neglected because people don't recognize them. And once you actually point them out and you say, "Well, how are you gonna fulfill these?" Then we can work on what works for you. So I don't tell people, I don't have, like, a recipe book. I, I can't do that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
I know that people can, I can't. What I like to do is work with you as a team, and you say to me, "This is what my needs are." I challenge that to try and make sure it's really clear-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 12:53 – 18:49
The chimp brain
- SPProf. Steve Peters
- SBSteven Bartlett
Two things I was super intrigued there by is the, the idea of self-image and what that really, really means. Um, 'cause I've heard the term of, you know, self-image. I guess that's how you see yourself.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, insecurities and all? Or is insecurities are impact how you see yourself?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Well, this is where 20-something years ago now, uh, in the early '90s, it struck me as a younger doctor that, um, the mind isn't one entity working. So when I ask people about self-image, I'm now gonna split the mind a bit and say, "What is the self-image that you feel you would like to have, and that you are aiming to, to present to the world? And what's the genetic self-image that your mind is giving you and the mind interpreting?" Hence, I started saying you have this circuitry which is rational and logical looking at the facts, and you have a circuitry which is emotionally based. So it's not logic and emotion, it's logically based with emotion, and it's emotion based with logic. And, uh, we don't control that. So if I try and... (laughs) That's detail, might have to listen to that one again-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SPProf. Steve Peters
...uh, is w- what I'm saying is we have control over the f- the circuitry, which I call the human circuits, and your self-image then might be that I'm a compassionate guy, that I'm a trustworthy person, that I always give 100%. This is what your self-image could be when I discuss with you and your circuits are responding. However, if you've moved the blood supply and oxygen uptake into what I'm calling the chimp circuits, circuits which are quite primitive but think, you don't have any control over that. So they will generate thinking. And the chimp circuits may give a very different answer.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Because they're much more likely to be emotion and say how you feel about yourself, rather than the reality. So the feeling could be the reality, but it's, it's likely not to be. So we get two images from two different circuits.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what is informing the chimp?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Right, so the chimp, when it starts off in life, this is going heavy neuroscience. As we develop in the fetus, the, the chimp circuitry, which is the orbital frontal cortex heads it up, this is a part of our brain just above our eyes, starts to think but it thinks in an emotional way. So it, it reacts to things. It doesn't think ahead with consequence, it reacts impulsively, and it relies on the center of the brain, the rest of the limbic system, it's part of the limbic, uh, to actually store this, our experiences memory. So for example, if a child gets told off at the age of two, it's likely be, to be in chimp circuitry. Uh, then if it wants to avoid being told off again, it will conceal what it does.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So if it's eaten a chocolate biscuit, it will just try not get caught.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Okay? Because it, it's imp- impulse will to be, eat the chocolate biscuit, but then it will learn, but if you do, you can get caught, you'll get told off. So therefore conceal being caught. So this is impulsive and not thinking long term consequences or values or... Because this circuitry just does impulsive how can I get what I want-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SPProf. Steve Peters
...and get away with it, with the least emotion, and, or painful emotion. Whereas what happens when we're around two is a secondary system, the human circuits start to develop. So these run from the top of our head, almost like a vertical one, down into the center of the brain. And this part, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, we have control of. This is our active thinking conscious awareness of things like future time. So we look at consequence. If I steal the biscuit, what will happen? Is there an alternative? And now our values start to come into play. It's not the right thing to do. Whereas the chimp brain doesn't work with values.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm. (laughs)
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Uh, it has values but they're not our values. Uh, so we then start having this battle in our heads.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
But that circuitry doesn't come in till we're a two-year-old approximately, so that's why we don't have memory-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
...before two because it's not actually functioning-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SPProf. Steve Peters
...and it stores factual memory rather than emotional memory.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So when you say one informed the chimp, the chimp has got all this intuition, and intuition is previous experience of what happens. So as it's going to take the chocolate biscuit, the chimp's brain will remind it, "This may not be a good thing. It's pleasurable but it may not be good." So that generally the child now feels on edge.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
They know what they wanna do but they're on edge, and they don't know why they're on edge until they have to think it through. And then the chimp will remind them, "You're getting this feeling because you could get caught."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- 18:49 – 33:29
How do we understand what drives us?
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you said drives there, that was the second point that I was intrigued by is-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... how, how one goes about understanding their drives. I think, um, when I, in a, in the world we live in, especially the, you know, the social media world, it feels like our drives and our values are somewhat, um, sometimes handed to us, and we don't even know that something isn't our true sort of intrinsic driver or values. But because of, I don't know, a desire to be, to fit in or to be, to gain approval from, um, people, we take it up as a value of our own, or, or we say if we're asked that that's something that drives us, but it's not. So, we might say, "We wanna be... we want a Lamborghini," or, "We wanna be a public speaker," or whatever. But really, probably underpinning that is our desire to be, um, to get recognition and to, to be loved, I don't know.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, but how'd you go about understanding what your true drivers are in life and not the things that you say just, uh...
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah, this is where, when I looked at this, uh, as I say, a long time back, you start to see the... if you ask people, which is what I do, to put away everything and just get a blank piece of paper, that's where I start, my starting point, is always, "Write down the perfect person you want to be." Because this now excludes any of the drives, and a lot of what you're talking about is actually behaviors attached to drives, they're not true drives. Drives are things like the need to eat, the need to have security, uh, these are drives, the need to be a parent, and we have these compulsive driving forces within us that get us out of our seat and make us find something, uh, whereas getting approval from people is actually based in the orbitofrontal cortex, the chimp again, where it's terrified of being excluded from the troop. So, a chimpanzee in the wild must be part of a troop, otherwise, the leopard's waiting.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So, lots of eyes protect you. So, the, the chimpanzee has an inbuilt need to be with other chimps.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
And in order to do that, it must prove to the other chimps that it's worthy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
'Cause if it isn't, they could exclude it, which would be death. So, we, we carry that drive still, th- of we need to be approved. The problem is, uh, the chimpanzee's got it right, we've got it wrong. The chimpanzee recognizes it only w- only wants approval from its immediate troop, whereas we actually try and get approval from the whole world. You know, so one person on social media tells the world that they're not like us, and we can potentially fall apart. Instead, they're saying, "Actually, they're not in my troop, so it's not important."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So, it's important, and this is a good example of how giving insights, people can start recognizing, actually find your own troop 'cause that's what you need to focus on, not the rest of the world. You'll never please them.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
You know, you're not part of that. So, drives you have to look at, and w- we have, I go through the list of this, and then we say to you, for example, "How strong is your troop drive?" We all have one, that's the need to belong to a group of people, or maybe just to one person. But generally, we like to have a number of people around us. So, it's looking and saying, "How strong is that drive, and are you full thing, fulfilling it correctly?" And, and also, when you've got your, what I'm calling the troop of people around you, are you actually looking after the troop and maintaining it and using it appropriately?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm. Makes a lot of sense. I've sat here with a lot of guests, and some of them have tens of millions of subscribers and followers online, and they still, uh, remarkably, they still, um, pretty mu- I'd say 95% of occasions can have their day ruined by one comment-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Hm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... on a YouTube video or an Instagram p- post.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it does, it does, like, it does s- blow my mind a little bit that, um-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah, but it, it-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... they can have such a big tribe and still, one-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah, I get that, but if you think that, um, we, society, we're told basically to m- respect everyone, which is correct from our human brain, our chimps are actually saying, "Just close in and get the people around you that matter, and please them and look at their approval." And that's what our friends do. They'll be critical, but it's, it's very constructive and done with love, so we accept criticism from friends. We know they're on side. But if you start expanding that inappropriately to the whole world, then you're gonna stress your chimp to pieces-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
... because what you're saying is, "I think it's really important that that person approves of me as well." So again, I look at the reality of life and say, "Let's just get in your factual memory-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
... some real truths of life."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
And people may disagree, but I, I ask them, "What do you believe?" 'Cause truths are relative to us. So, one of the things we know is, and, and give this statistic as a loose statistic, 80% of people approve of us, 20% love us, 60% just approve, and 20% are just not pleasant people. And if we go around believing that we're really gonna make them into pleasant people or we're really gonna please them, you're gonna lose. So, you have to step back and get that fact, and then you don't worry if 20% of the people don't like you or make critical remarks. You just dismiss it and look at the 20% who do love you, who are gonna l- give you constructive criticism and respect you. So again, it's that learning that your drive is out of control.
- 33:29 – 52:48
How do we manage our emotional reactions?
- SBSteven Bartlett
I wanted to talk about ex- exactly that topic, which is, like, managing your emotional reactions-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, across different facets of life. And I think, um, I'll go, let me just give you an example of a situation that I went through that I wrote about in my book. So I'm just gonna be completely honest-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... because that's what I tend to do on this podcast. Um, I broke up with a girl and, um, like two days later I found out that she'd slept with somebody else.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And when I f- even though I'd broken up with her, e- when I, when I read the message that she'd slept with somebody else, my brain, "Revenge."
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"Message her."
- SPProf. Steve Peters
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) "Destroy her life." That's what my brain said to me. But I, um, and, and I am at a place in my life where I feel quite secure in my self-image, let's say.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I don't feel particularly insecure. I'm, I'm, I'm a confident person, but even I couldn't seem to get a grip of my own, um, desire to react emotionally in that situation.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, and really interestingly as well, it was actually my friend calling me. I went to the gym, I thought, "Maybe I'll go to the gym and that'll, like, clear my head." It was my friend calling me and, and this, I don't know where this fits in psychiatry, but my friend said to me, "Steve, just remember, you broke up with her. She's probably doing this to, um, make herself feel better and to, you know, rebound or whatever." But, um, that was one of those key moments where I was like, "Oh God, like, ugh, the damage you can do if you don't know how to control that, like, primitive-"
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"... urge to just, 'Ugh!'"
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Okay. You've covered a lot of ground there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah. (laughs)
- SPProf. Steve Peters
That could be an hour's work here.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So I'm gonna take it back and try and go very steadily to try and drive home... There's a lot of areas.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
One is, first of all, what would you expect somebody's mind to do confronted with the same situation? What would you expect them to do?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Probably the same thing.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Exactly, so nothing abnormal happened. There wasn't a problem.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
You're saying this is absolutely healthy and normal, but maybe not helpful.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
And what you really said, because you've told me this, if it wasn't a problem to you, you wouldn't have mentioned it.
- 52:48 – 1:03:43
Stress & Alcoholism
- SBSteven Bartlett
Stress.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the topics, um, you, you write about in your book, A Path Through the Jungle, but also I've, I've been quite intrigued by over the years, is the idea of stress.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think it's been painted as a really negative thing-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... something to be... for us to avoid at all costs. But from what I've, um, understood, that's not necessarily the truth, so stress-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
No.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... can be a good and a bad thing.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah. I mean, trying to just go with the newer science again, if we look at where stress comes from, um, it's a good thing, provided we act on it. Uh, if you have, like, gone on a big dipper ride, your brain releases a lot of noradrenaline. And we know this is a good thing, you get a thrill from it, but if you keep on being in a stressful situation, noradrenaline stays high and that now becomes damaging to us. And it's joined by the big one, which is cortisol. And there are other negative hormones and transmitters. And so these, when they're held at high levels, become damaging.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
In short bursts, they're actually healthy because they can wake us up to saying, "Right, you need to act."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So we do have resilience hormones coming in, uh, and they will then give us an opportunity, as long as you recognize it, to say, "Stress is welcome, provided I act to remove it. There's something I need to do, whatever is causing me the stress." What tends to happen is people either don't recognize they're getting stressed and it becomes chronic, and they've got these habitual behaviors which are damaging to them, and they don't even recognize them. Um, and then they get symptoms of stress which they also don't recognize, 'cause people think stress is where we're wringing our hands and panicking, and that's not really true. Stress comes in all different forms and often isn't recognized. So for example, um, we know things like all your drives may go out, so your eating drive, sex drive, sleep drives, these all start to falter, can change in any direction. But also things like irritability, suddenly finding you've got a short fuse, constantly being tired, this is, this is usually an evidence of stress somewhere in your life. Um, but even more subtle ones, when you get people with gr- really bad anxiety, so you have a generalized anxiety state, gross anxiety, um, they can be appear selfish.... because suddenly they become so vulnerable in their own eyes, and stressed. They don't actually pay attention to people around them. And when we treat them and they get better, they suddenly start engaging with people again, and show, demonstrate respect and com- an understanding, and... But while they're not well, they become almost selfish, or appear that way. So again, you can get people who are stressed and appear to be very self-interested, and it's really vulnerability, they're under stress, and we misunderstand that or misinterpret it and start thinking someone's a selfish person. I mean, they may be selfish-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
... but I'm saying it is one of the hidden stress factors that can start appearing.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In terms of the causes of stress, um, d- well, I think one of the widely held beliefs is, especially now as we think about mental illness-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... is that it's, um, a lot of it's about sort of pent-up, unaddressed issues-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... or us not releasing or expressing what we're thinking or feeling. Is that accurate?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
It is, but then (sighs) the etiology, or the cause, of stress is- is multiple. So again, it could be, for example, that you've got an ongoing problem, somebody bullying you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
You know, that's stressful. Or you're lacking a partner and it really isn't working out, and that can stress you-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
... because you feel like it's never gonna happen, you know, and there's false starts and you start to become stressed by it. Or, as you said, you could have experiences from way back, um, which have never really been worked through or addressed, and they therefore keep surfacing, they bubble under these emotions, and that will definitely create stress. It tends to be they- they don't present with stress as such, they present with odd emotions.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Right.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So they translate into things like irritability. And- and when you say, "Well, let's look at why you're being irritable," it's unaddressed issues that, uh, that you need to get up to the surface in the time you want to do it, uh, and then clear the computer system, as I'm calling it, so you've processed these issues.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And sometimes an addiction?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
An addiction to?
- 1:03:43 – 1:08:09
Forming habits
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the things you talk about extensively is about forming habits-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and, um, a lot of people in my life recently, including myself, have tried to be, tried to form habits, especially during the lockdown when so much of our lives was, um... Our habits were broken, our cycles were broken because we were all trapped in our houses, so whether we, you know, had formed a habit of going to the Starbucks then the gym in the morning or whatever, we had our habits broken. So I spent a lot of time thinking about how I could form healthier habits in my life. One of them was working out every day, um, but I... And one of the sort of, I guess, popular narratives is that if you do something for 21 days, it becomes a habit.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is the truth about habits and how we form them?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
I mean, there's a lot of research on this-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
... and th- they're a little bit contradictory-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure. (laughs)
- SPProf. Steve Peters
... so read and believe-
- SBSteven Bartlett
As is life.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
... what y- you like. But, I mean, the general feel is that if you look at why we form a habit, it's either consciously done with a belief system under or it's unconsciously done, we aren't thinking about it. A common one, for example, uh, uh, a poor habit is, uh... And I use this a lot when I do keynote speeches, to say to people, "When you go home, if you're with a partner that you love, um, how do you present to them when you arrive?" And it's amazing how most people moan, which, you know, they've not thought that what... They don't wanna see somebody mourning. (laughs) You don't meet someone and say, "You can have this every day of your life, I'll come back and see you."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SPProf. Steve Peters
You know? So what you do is you walk in and think, "What habit would you like?" And the belief then is, "If I go in mourning, they could leave me."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
"This could damage..." Now that's gonna shift your habit. So once you've turned the belief around this, you're unconsciously doing it without thinking, "This is damaging." And so if you actually sit down and, and work that out and put it in your computer system, then when the chimp gets through the door, it's not gonna mourn because what the chimp has to do scientifically is consult the computer before it does anything. It all happens in a tiny fraction of a second, but if the computer's programmed to say, "Don't forget," it will unconsciously remind the chimp, "You need to be in a good place when you walk in," because that's what they're gonna decide on whether they're there the next night.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So you start to re- recognize that being someone who moans all the time, or complains, when you first meet someone, isn't ideal. So we have these unconscious habits which we're not aware of, which we can bring to conscious by starting to look at our life and say, "Is this how I wanna be?" But you have to ask the question. Or we have habits like we eat too much. Now, these are different because the first one wasn't based on a drive, it's just based on a, a behavior that we've gotten to a pat-... The, the eating habit's much more complex 'cause now you've got not only a behavior that we've got into, like eating too much, or eating the wrong things, uh, we're driven with an incredibly powerful survival drive to eat. So now we've, we have to deal with two aspects. One is, what is it, the habit that we want to get and what are the beliefs we're gonna underpin with this, and how are we gonna manage this drive? How are we gonna fulfill the drive in a way that our chimp's happy that it's got its drive fulfilled and we're happy?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So now you really have to look at that, so that's a big battle. That's not an easy battle. But it can be won. It can be won. So again, habits are not straightforward.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
They need to be subdivided and say let's look at unconscious, conscious, whether they're linked to drives or they're linked to some really bad experience. Sometimes we have a habit because we've got a bad, bad experience. It's like you, you explained that you went through a really bad time with this girl. If it got repeated, God forbid, if it got repeated three or four times, you can see how your habit would be to distrust-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
And it would become a habit because your belief is that th- these women are not trustworthy. And suddenly, your chimp generalizes all women are like this, and you hear guys saying this. And clearly, this is so untrue, you know? And so with you, I'd be looking and saying, "When you meet this, what are you looking for in the girl?" (laughs) Are you looking at physical looks? Are you looking at, "Do they make me laugh?" Or are you looking at their values?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So we can actually start looking at how you're choosing your partners.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
And that might help you to avoid the behavior, the habit of picking up what you might then define as the wrong person-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
... and, and worse even, to blame yourself then, instead of saying, "Right, let's analyze this." So again, there's habits there where it's based on, um, your belief of what you've experienced, or you're letting your chimp make decisions, instead of your human saying, "Hang on, can I make decisions from a more rational basis than just keep deciding on an emotional
- 1:08:09 – 1:09:46
What does an everyday person do without you?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
basis?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's a lot of reflective work that goes into being able to understand and kind of rewrite those, uh, first-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... like spot understand and rewrite those, um, those, those beliefs-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... you have. What, what is, what is the path to, what is the path to reflection for, you know, not everybody can go and see yourself every day and chat to you sort of thing?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna be mentioning the book now.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Go ahead.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Not trying to promote, but... (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Um, the, uh, obviously, I help, I've helped a lot of people, and it's been a massive privilege. It's very humbling when people do do well. But one of the complaints people said is exactly what you said, "I can't work with everybody, and, uh, I've got a team." Uh, so we'd run lots of stuff, workshops and one-to-one. However, um, for Joe Public, some said, "I wanna work on my own." And so I wrote this, uh, Path through the Jungle as, as a manual with lots of diagrams, lots of science references this time, for people who wanna follow them up. Um, I hope it's really readable. And it starts from square one and says, "Let's look at the structure and your function of your mind." Then it takes you through this, a journey almost, through the mind, saying, "Let's look at how emotions work." We talk about grief processes and relationships, um, talking about interacting with others, so I've done the lot. And basically, what it leads to is, eventually you learn how to become robust and resilient. In other words, get yourself into a great place, uh, and it, and this takes you with practical exercises that you try out and find the ones that resonate with you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Across eight stages?
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Understanding your mind, emotional management, working with emotions, changing habits and managing life events, the two main stabilizer, stabilizers of the mind, creating a stress-free lifestyle, optimizing interactions with others, and then stage eight's pulling it all together.
- 1:09:46 – 1:11:28
Fear of failure
- SBSteven Bartlett
One of the, um, the last thing I really wanted to, to talk to you about was this, um, this idea of, um, fear of failure, which I think underpins so much of, specifically for my audience, um, one of the-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... big barriers in their life. The, I, I get, I get thousands of messages every week, and it's people trying to take that step to, to become, to start their business or to, you know, start that hobby or pursue that-
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... dream they have, but there seems to be something holding them back.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Okay. I mean, I'll just take what you've given me there.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sure.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
'Cause it could be, um, a multitude of reasons.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
As I've s- I keep saying, everyone is unique, and that's, that's what's intriguing about working with people. It, it's fantastic 'cause every person is different. But you mentioned a fear of failure, so I'm gonna be controversial.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
I, I don't, there's no such thing in my book as a fear of failure. What we're really saying, and it's really important subtlety, as you said before about language, your fear isn't failure, it's fear of not being able to deal with the consequences of failure. Now, that might sound the same thing, but it isn't, because if you fear failure, there's nothing you can do with that because it's, it could happen.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So you're stuck with fearing failure. Whereas if you say, "I fear the consequences of failure, not being able to deal with them," now you can do something, 'cause we can look at the consequences and address them and get people to be able to say, "I can deal with it. Whatever happens, I can deal with it." So the fear of not actually succeeding disappears, because they've got this, "I'm aware. I've got a plan."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
So I meet a lot of people who say that to me, particularly athletes, "I fear failure." And I have to correct it and say, "That's not actually what the brain is looking at. It's saying, 'I fear not being able to deal with the consequences of failure.'"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
And that's something I can work with.
- 1:11:28 – 1:12:45
Setting your state in the morning
- SPProf. Steve Peters
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's just two other things before we round up that I was really intrigued by.
- SPProf. Steve Peters
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, and w- you might've, might've touched on both in various ways throughout this conversation, this idea that if you wake up in the morning, and you set your state just by saying to yourself, "I'm gonna have a good day"-
Episode duration: 1:15:58
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