James Bay: Imposter Syndrome, Trauma & Controlling The Voice In Your Head | E166

James Bay 0:00 I remember writing Hold Back the River and everybody at the label jumping for joy and thinking that they had a hit on their hands.

Narrator 0:05 James Bay! Hold back the river. Let me look in your eyes. Hold back the river so I...

James Bay 0:13 I dreamt about being on those stages in front of all the people that my heroes were in front of. And I remember this burning desire. I was dead certain that I wanted it more than everyone.

Steven Bartlett 0:24 Chaos and the Calm comes out, debuts at number one. That's crazy.

Narrator 0:27 And the winner is James Bay!

James Bay 0:29 Thank you so much. This is insane. Nobody could have made us understand it was gonna be traumatic. Who I was on the Chaos and the Calm campaign, I needed to stop all of that for my soul and my mental health. Yeah, it's pretty fucking intense. Ed Sheeran's invited me to open for him in football stadiums around Europe. And the bit I hate to admit and I'm anxious to confess is that... Life can take a toll on people. To be male and talk about your feelings, it was more about, "Can you suck it up, though?" It's all, like, an act.

Steven Bartlett 1:05 Would you do it all again?

James Bay 1:06 (sighs) I'm really concerned about what happens next.

Steven Bartlett 1:14 So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

Steven Bartlett 1:30 James. So you're a '90s baby.

James Bay 1:34 Yeah. 1990.

Steven Bartlett 1:35 S- same as me, 1992.

James Bay 1:37 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 1:37 What about those early years defined you?

James Bay 1:41 Ooh.

Steven Bartlett 1:42 And the person you would g- go on to be? When you look back at the dots and say, "Well, that, that, and that is the reason I am who I am," what are those first dots?

James Bay 1:49 I, I grew up in a, in a, um, kinda commuter belt town called Hitchin in Hertfordshire, which is about an hour outside of the center of London. I hated going into London. It's horrible, busy, noisy, smelly, awful. The quiet calm of my little hometown was perfect. It was safe, pretty much safe. Um, I'm the youngest of, of me and my brother, um, and then there's my parents, my mum and my dad. And we don't have my... I only have one cousin who was born ten years after I was born. So we were a small family. It wasn't a big crowd, it wasn't the sort of noisy experience growing up, uh, in that respect. My parents are pretty fiery people and, um, they're kind of party animals in a way. They, they're very social. They're very loud and, and, and, and, um, kind of excitable. So I feel that, that was going on sort of all the time. They had people round all the time and they kind of, I suppose, inspired me and my brother to sort of be okay in all sorts of social situations. And, uh, I think all kids, myself included, go through moments of shyness and moments where they're a little more outgoing, then maybe a little more shy again, then outgoing again. I r- remember most vividly the sort of shyer times and I stood behind my older brother, who would lead nine out of ten times into any situation with other kids or whatever. So I felt I was a more timid person, gentle, compared to my parents and my brother who were more, um, just louder. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 3:32 Were your parents affectionate?

James Bay 3:35 In a kind of, uh, I wanna say, like, wartime way, stiff upper lip kinda way. My dad was older than other dads. Um, still a great dad, but he, my, you know, he was 42 when I was born. Uh, he's nearly 75. And he comes from, like, very... Well, his parents were, you know, his dad was flying fighter planes in the Second World War. Most of, uh, my friends' parents' parents' parents, like there's a, there's another generation usually involved, whereas for me it was my dad's dad who was doing that. So my parents come from this... You've asked if they were affectionate. Uh, they were affectionate in a sort of steely way.

Steven Bartlett 4:32 (laughs)

James Bay 4:32 (laughs) Th- th- the, it wasn't, it wasn't sweet and sugary and cuddly, to be honest. For example, when I showed some vague interest in performing of any kind, my mum was less, "Oh, that's nice." She wasn't really, that wasn't her energy. Her energy was like, "Okay, if you're into it, do it and do it like mean it! Go on!" Like it was, it was with a bit of a smile. It wasn't like, it was like enc- it was encouraging and I got on board with it. But, um, ultimately it was like, "If you're gonna give it a shot, don't, don't do it by half. Look at..." And she'd name any one of my heroes and s- or any one of her heroes musically, you know. They, my parents are big music fans. She'd say, "Look at what they give it. You've gotta give it that." And without quite saying it, she was saying, you know, "You have to be believable. It's all, like, an act." Um, so affectionate. Uh, uh, they were encouraging and, and, and they were excited by, for example, when I got into music and wanting to play an instrument and performing and all that. They were excited about it, I think. But they weren't, like, if I wasn't into it, they weren't... You know, if, if the one and a half times in the early, early days that I kind of went, "Oh, I don't know if I wanna play guitar actually. It's probably a bit hard," they weren't like, "Aw."... and they weren't saying, "Try harder then." They were just like, "All right. M- okay."

Steven Bartlett 6:12 What about your dad, then, when he finds out that you wanna be, you know, you might wanna pursue that avenue?

James Bay 6:16 Well, one thing my dad, and both my parents, um, said a lot about, and kind of required of me, was that I would do something to earn some money. And actually, go back to, I was 12 or 13 when they first said, "Pocket money's done." And I think I know a lot of kids who were getting that till sort of 16 at the time. Some of them longer. 'Cause there was various kids whose parents weren't... They didn't need their kids to get a job. They just wanted their kids to be kids and have a nice time. And I guess it's not that my parents didn't want me to have a nice time but, from like 12 years old they were like, "There are jobs you can get. There's a paper round, there's this, there's that." And there was a... My dad, who had loved music and going to see music live since he was, you know, much younger, since way before me and my brother came along, he was definitely like, "There's a job at the market." Like, "So-and-so's kid is working down at the market. Go and ask him how he got the job. Try and get the other shift." And I did. I got that shift. My brother got that, one of the shifts as well. And at 13-

Steven Bartlett 7:15 Mm-hmm.

James Bay 7:15 ... in January, at 4:00 AM, I was on my bike, on the way to the market, in the dark. Shivering my nuts off.

Steven Bartlett 7:22 Mm-hmm.

James Bay 7:24 I remember the, like, anxiety dreams that I would have before getting up for that because as a teenager I just wanted to be asleep for hours and hours and hours. And you're supposed to, like, we know more about that now. It's like really good for teenagers to get as much sleep as they can. Kids of any age, but teenagers apparently, very important. My dad didn't know any of that. Not interested. You know, if James wants to bu- buy guitar strings, 'cause he's snapping them off his guitar half the time, and I can't... He's like, "Well, I can't keep paying for that." Which I respect. I didn't at the time. Um, my dad and my mum... But also 'cause my dad had had jobs as a, as a kid, you know, helping someone at a, like a, you know, a corner shop or something. He, he, he like heartily believed in that and was trying to instill that in us from clearly, you know, very early on because whatever our hobby might have been, he... He's like, "I don't, I don't wanna have to fund it." And I understand that. We don't come from money. You know, we don't... My, my mum was sometimes working and sometimes not because, you know, she was being a stay-at-home m- mum half the time. Um, but, and, and my dad was, was, you know, bringing in the, the, the big bit that, that paid for the family to sort of exist. Um, yeah. So he, he was, uh... He believed as long as we could sort of fund the things that we wanted to do, more or less, then they were doable.

Steven Bartlett 8:50 You, you talk a lot about how, um, having idle time is really, really important to-

James Bay 8:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 8:55 ... discovering who you are, and being a creative, and, and finding yourself. Something I've... It's actually a concept that I've not really heard before talked about from one of my guests is the importance of just having a window of time. And I imagine even today when it comes to creativity, that's, that's maybe a big part of your creative process. Can you talk to me about that, that early age then, how idle time helped you to become who you are?

James Bay 9:17 Um, almost against the odds basically. Uh, it, it helped me become who I am today, and it helped feed my creative everything. Um, what do I mean by that? My mum's the type of person who... So when I was a kid in the house, you know, if I, if I was having some idle time, another way to say that is if I was, wasn't doing anything middle of the afternoon, she'd be on me like, you know, straight away, or my brother, like, "What are you doing? You can't do nothing. You could tidy your room. You could come and clean this thing for me."

Steven Bartlett 9:50 (laughs)

James Bay 9:50 "You could go out the back garden and do this thing for me, or you could do that. What do you mean you're doing nothing?" That's my... That's a vivid memory, and it's not like unfair. I, I respect it in certain ways, but I know as a, at this point someone who's sort of professionally kind of creative and, uh, you know, wound up in a position where I can sort of call that my job, that it's very important to be staring out the window. There was some quote, I can't remember who said it, and somebody told me it the other day, and I haven't got any sort of reference names for you, sorry, but a guy said, uh...

Steven Bartlett 10:26 Just say it was Einstein.

James Bay 10:27 Einstein, perfect. Um, Einstein's wife said to him, "What are you doing?" He was looking out the window. He said, "I'm working." And that was it. And it's perfect for a creative, that, 'cause it's, it's bang on. That's the... If I'm staring out the window, into space as the rest of us would, might say, then it just looks like I'm staring into space. But I'm probably having an idea for a song, or a lyric, or working something over in my head. I find it hard to say that stuff to you or anybody without worrying that I sound pretentious or like a bit of a dick. Um, but I know that's the experience. When I was a kid thinking about something I wanted to draw, whatever it may have been, and having some of this like idle time, like I say, my mum was like on me like, "No, that's not okay." So maybe that's why I, I, I'm sort of concerned even now that I look like a pretentious idiot.

Steven Bartlett 11:27 No, I, I compl- I have to say I completely agree and it's, it's f- logically it makes a ton of sense that you have to clear the mind to allow new ideas to arrive and that we all w- I mean every business, every person that works in a business will know the best ideas don't come from a boardroom. They don't come when you're trying to think of them. They come when you go for a walk, or you're in the shower.

James Bay 11:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 11:46 All these places where you have that space.

James Bay 11:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 11:49 Um, so it makes perfect sense.

James Bay 11:51 Y- I remember, uh, David Gilmour in Pink Floyd said, "Every time I sit down, guitar in hand, to write a song in that really creative mood, I wanna write a song, and I'm gonna, and it's gonna be great, nothing comes." And it's, it is generally that way. So it's quickly, a long time ago, it qu- it quickly made me understand and sort of cherish the opportunity to, to sit around with the tools nearby-... and just exist, and think, and dream, and play. By which I mean play guitar, play music, but just play.

Steven Bartlett 12:24 Creatives and just people generally f- I think, have a lot of guilt associated with just sitting around. But, it seems to be so incredibly imperative to creation.

James Bay 12:36 It's a huge, huge part of it. It's probably 95% of the reason why it ever works, if it ever works. 95% of it is about having... not, not watching a clock, not, there not being any sort of consequence. And we c- we put, I put hundreds of consequences on myself. We all do. Um, but as soon as you do those things, the, kind of the quality starts to sort of lessen. Um, so yeah, uh, it didn't help, that experience when I was a kid-

Steven Bartlett 13:11 Mm-hmm.

James Bay 13:11 ... of my mum sort of going, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Can't-"

Steven Bartlett 13:14 "Keep yourself busy."

James Bay 13:14 Yeah. "Keep... You got... Uh, you know, if you're not... You know." It was almost, "If you're not... If I don't see you kind of playing and, and, and, and getting something from the playing, then you're not spending your time. You could be helping me, you could be doing this, you could be doing that. Is there, is there a... Is there some homework you haven't done?" And yeah, there probably was like hundreds of bits of homework I hadn't done, but I was already so into trying to write a song, or get better at playing the guitar or being creative in some other way, that of course I was pushing the homework under the rug.

Steven Bartlett 13:43 Mm-hmm.

James Bay 13:43 Um, but that... Uh, uh, unfortunately, that, that, even that small sort of pressure that I felt then has, has ended up... Has, has... Like so many... Like you say you've met so many creative people who feel that sort of guilt, it has, um, heightened the sense of guilt. So, it's a strange one to juggle. And, uh, and I find myself fighting against it, and that's, uh, that's really, uh, inconvenient (laughs) to what I'm trying to do as a passion and, and actually for a living, suddenly.

Steven Bartlett 14:14 What insecurities did you have at that young age? I spend a lot of time talking about all of mine, but-

James Bay 14:19 No, man.

Steven Bartlett 14:20 ... I just wanted to ask something about your... theirs.

James Bay 14:21 Um, insecurities. I had an insecurity... So, uh, in school, in like primary school as a, as a li- a young kid, I was, um, I was a fast runner, I was good at drawing and painting. I had this, the... A selection of things that I was good at. And like, the talk in the classroom was that I was the best at running, I was one of the best at football, I was the best at drawing. And I'm not fully sure how, but that started quickly to really matter to me to the point that as far as, you know, what insecurities did I have? I, I think back about the worries that I had about, "Well, what if one day I'm not the fastest?"

Steven Bartlett 15:04 Mm-hmm.

James Bay 15:04 "And what if somebody draws something better than me?" And I hate to admit that, and I don't know why I felt those things. But, I had a, I had an ambition and a dr- and a drive that w- wanted to be really, really good at s- at these things. Um, and as a kid, yeah, I wanted to sort of be able to feel like I was the best at them.

Steven Bartlett 15:30 Why? Do you know why?

James Bay 15:31 I don't know. Uh, well, I know it's dangerous territory is what I wanted to say. I know now as an adult that that's dangerous territory, because there's enjoying things and being really good at them, and then there's a, there's a difference between that and whatever somebody decides is the best. Why? One, uh, theory as to why, uh, one of my theories I suppose, uh, just as I think about it now, is that I could maybe then sort of... maybe I could validate idle time. I think I really enjoyed, and to this day I really enjoy (laughs) , uh, having an endless amount of time and space to create. And I'll throw that thing about being the fastest runner sort of off the table for a minute, because it doesn't really sort of relate to the context of the other things I loved then that have sort of fed through into my, my life now. Um, why, why, why was I... why did I worry about that stuff? When... Yeah, I wanted to... I wanted... If, if, if I could be... If I could say, "People think I'm really good at this," then I could have a reason for why I should be allowed any amount of time to focus on them. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:49 And, and you could present that evidence to who?

James Bay 16:52 My parents, anybody trying to stop me doing it, a part of my conscience, 'cause I have a conscience that feels guilty. If I... I'm looking at the clock all the time. It made me a very punctual person. But I also look at the clock out of paranoia, "How much time have we got? How much time have I got?" And it shouldn't matter at all to creativity, that. But I find myself doing it all the time. You know, I actually... I, I have a baby now. We have a nine-month-old daughter, and, and, and, um-

Steven Bartlett 17:23 Ada?

James Bay 17:24 Ada.

Steven Bartlett 17:25 Ada. I never knew how to pronounce it.

James Bay 17:25 Some people do pronounce it Ada. Some peo- I, I, I, I-

Steven Bartlett 17:27 Ada's much better to be fair, so.

James Bay 17:28 I learned this. But, um, Lucy went out, took Ada out the other day. And because Lucy's the absolute greatest, she was like, "It'll just give you a load of time to just have a guitar, you know, next to you, and think about the things that you sort of..." You see what I'm getting at?

Steven Bartlett 17:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Bay 17:47 She just gave me, "Hey, you just do you for a bit." And-

Steven Bartlett 17:50 That's a gift.

James Bay 17:51 It's a, it's a... That was, uh, uh, incredibly generous given now I know what it's like to be, you know, a first time parent and, and it's, it's a... It takes a village. Um, uh, and still, (laughs) an hour into that time, I knew I was an hour into that time, because I'd looked at the clock. I didn't need to. But I still carry it. Uh-... it's fucking frustrating.

Steven Bartlett 18:16 Was there any- anyone in your circle at that early age that made you feel like that wasting, wa- quote-unquote "wasting" time or not using time in a evidently productive way was, uh, what meant that you were a lazy person?

James Bay 18:28 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:28 Was that... Is that-

James Bay 18:29 It was, that was part of the language of, of, of who and what I grew up around. Um, you know, yeah, like I say, like, we didn't, we d- we weren't a sort of, we weren't like a particularly wealthy family. Nei- neither were any of the sort of friends that, that, that my family had, or, th- you know, everyone was somewhere bec- between working class and s- sort of just about middle class.

Steven Bartlett 18:56 Hmm.

James Bay 18:57 But I felt a lot of penny pinching all the time. Partly probably because of what my parents come from. So how they operate. So, and it felt like middle class came, like, later in life. I think my parents are there now, but, like, that's slightly sort of besides the point. What I mean is, um, time was precious. Uh, and you had to... uh, the, the, the language around idle time was, you know, "Don't waste it." Before anybody had thought about what anybody was doing with idle time they were already being told not to waste it. That was a, that was, yeah, in my wider circle as a kid, around, you know, my, my family and my family friends and friends of friends. That was the energy. So there was, like, a pressure and there was, of course, yeah, a narrative that, that, that said, "Oh, he just sits around all the time. He's so lazy." Not directly to me necessarily, but if anybody was doing any sitting around of any kind for any prolonged amount of time, lazy guy. So it was a negative thing and I felt a pressure and a sort of self-conscious need to stay away from that. While all the, all the while I absolutely kind of craved it for, for being a creative kid who wanted to draw and paint and explore music.

Steven Bartlett 20:22 Did you get the impression that people in your family and close to you had high hopes for your future?

James Bay 20:28 You know, I do think that they thought I really wanted the kind of things I've achieved. I do think that they believed I wanted this stuff. And I think they saw that in my, how, how I went about my days. Um, I remember a friend of mine, who's still such a good friend of mine, Matt, we learned to play guitar together. Me and Tom, who I mentioned, who, who plays bass in my band, and, and, and Matt, and, and my brother Alex and I, we, you know, we were all playing guitars at the same time, learning to do this, that, and the other. And me and Matt, we were doing our GCSEs and we were in, like, a biology class. We did the same, we had the same science class. And we were talking. And Matt is a brilliant, beautiful soul who is sort of... He's a total party animal, but he's wonderfully sort of earnest in his own way as well. And we were, we were sharing the pressures of what we're supposed to do after our GCSEs, after our A levels. "Are we gonna do uni? Oh my God, who are we gonna be? What are we gonna do?" And he said, "Man, one thing's for sure. I don't think you'll ever have an office job." And I knew how he meant it, and I really, I really appreciated it, and I've never forgotten it. And I think I've s- I've brought it back to him, I've brought it up with him again since. And in a strange way it felt like he was a guy... You know, you asked what my parents would say. Well, he was someone who was very close to me at the time as well, who I felt believed in me. What's funny is, he was one of ten of us who were all starting to play the guitar at the same time. We all looked at Jimi Hendrix or the Red Hot Chili Peppers or any of our, our rock heroes in the same way, and we wanted it. We wanted that. 'Cause you do when you're 14. "Yeah, I wanna do that." And I remember this burning desire. And I can't tell you even to this day whether it was the same or less or more than any of the other guys. But in the moment, I was dead certain that I wanted it more than everyone. And I did sit with my parents some nights with some music on the TV or on the radio or, or coming off the record player, and almost get emotional about how badly I wanted to do that kind of thing, make that kind of sound. Like, "When I grow up," was the sort of thing I was saying. And they didn't take the piss out of me. They were very straight-faced about it. I think they liked... I think it excited them. And obviously they had no idea if it was actually gonna happen. But, they did encourage it. So, my very long-winded answer to your question if you called them up is, yeah, I think they, I think they would've believed or hoped that I'd have sort of got close. Maybe even half as close as I've come. Um, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:13 And off you go to study music-

James Bay 23:15 Right.

Steven Bartlett 23:16 ... in Brighton.

James Bay 23:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:18 Um, it's, it was, it's really a wonderful thing to hear that one of the real sort of catalyst moments in your early career was just a clip of someone, some punter in a pub recording you-

James Bay 23:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:29 ... singing-

James Bay 23:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:30 ... that ended up on-

James Bay 23:31 YouTube.

Steven Bartlett 23:32 ... YouTube.

James Bay 23:33 And, uh, I will say it was at a time when there were YouTube sensations popping into the charts, getting signed by big record labels. Very exciting. 'Cause they got 500,000 views overnight. They put the video up at 7:00 PM and by 7:00 AM it had a million views, it had two million views. That video that went online of me, it was there for six weeks or more. 25 views maybe, maybe 26 views. Um, and I wa- I didn't... I wasn't... I hadn't thought about it. I met the guy 'cause he filmed me and he said, "I'll put it online." You know, he'll do, like, a little sort of filter on it, little edit. Thanks, man. Great. I'm just glad you, you liked my song. And I didn't hear about it until this record label found it with its 25 views and they called up my manager. I had a manager at the time. Still the same manager I've got today. Called him up.... and said, "We love- we love this. We'd love to meet you, meet James. Um, can we fly you to New York?" Which was a, sort of- that's where they were based at the record label. And it was just a very whirlwind, exciting experience, just to go and meet these guys. They just wanted me to come and sit and sort of play for them, like, in the flesh. And, um, and so I did. And they went on to be the label that I sort of signed to after a second visit. And it was all very exciting, given that it feels like... You know, that was one of a million open mic nights that I was performing at, at that time. Just rolling up, putting my name down, playing three songs, moving on to the next one.

Steven Bartlett 24:55 What has that taught you about knocking on doors and you never know which one's gonna open? You know what I mean? 'Cause as you say, people will look at that and go, "Oh, fucking so lucky." You know. But, um, what- what does that- what has that told you about the nature of how life happens and...

James Bay 25:11 I guess it's taught me to use the idle time. My idle time in that- in those years, was long empty evenings that I filled with finding open mic nights to hone my craft. It sounds a bit pretentious again, but it's exactly what I was doing. It's exactly what I was doing, and it's exactly what I'm doing at every gig I do today. The only difference is that there seems to be some people today who are actually there to see me, and they've done a bit of homework. They say they like my songs, and that's so flattering. But every single show I do to this day, I just wanna be a bit better. I just want to deliver a slightly more effortless, every time, more effortless, hopefully more moving and enjoyable experience for the people standing in front of me. Back then, it was 7 or 8, maybe 11 or 12 people smattered around a bar, privately trying to have a drink, probably after work, trying to catch up. And I'm in the corner barking. And they ha- they don't know who I am, and they haven't, they haven't paid to see me or anything. And, uh, I want their attention. And I don't just want their attention. I want the thing that I've written to be good enough to effortlessly turn their head. That's how it has to go. Uh, and I had a lot of time to fill with those, um, trials. It was all trials. Uh, it's all training. Um, so I did. And I remember earlier than when that thing was... when that guy filmed me in that bar. I remember years before that when, for example, I was taking couple of originals and a couple of covers to an open mic night, and people really enjoyed my delivery of the covers, which was really encouraging. Um, and then I'd do an original, and they... I- I- I'd play the verse, and they're just talking away. And I'd play the chorus, and they're still talking. Then I'd play the bridge, and a few heads would turn. And I think... I'd go home that night thinking, "The bridge has got something, but the other bits need work. Clearly, the other bits need work." 'Cause I didn't have them in the verse, and I didn't have them in the chorus. But I had them in the bridge, and that's why it was all training. And so I go home. This is when I'd moved to Brighton actually, particularly. I had a lot of idle time between lessons and the course that I was doing, and I filled it with just trying to be better, just soaking up... I was going to the record shop. This is just right before streaming sort of exploded. Uh, it wasn't like a- a thing, so I was buying records still. Um, the difference, I suppose, from my generation at that time is I put them on my computer and stick them on my MP3, and I could walk around without a stack of CDs in my pocket or in my bag. Anyway, I was soaking up as much as I possibly could. Uh, just trying to get better, trying to create a more enjoyable experience for anybody who was in front of me, 'cause that's all I love about music. And that's what I want to... that's why I want to do it, 'cause I... for some reason, I wanna be able to create that for other people.

Steven Bartlett 28:00 People often overlook that part, but it seems to be, if there was a sort of a through line or a common thread between all the guests I sit here with, whether they're comedians or they're music artists, the ones that have become really successful and also really unique and in- and... yeah, unique is the right word. Really unique, is you get this, like, bit before where they were performing to no one and kinda just doing it for the love of it for themselves.

James Bay 28:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 28:25 And it seems to be that that, in fact, that moment is the defining moment when no one's there, when there isn't the arenas and there's... That part there, that 10,000 hours part-

James Bay 28:34 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 28:34 ... that they talk about-

James Bay 28:35 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 28:36 ... is the most important part.

James Bay 28:38 Uh, somehow, I think it probably is. E- everything that might follow that or that does or everything that followed that for me, has been so important. But there are moments in the very beginning for anybody, whatever they're doing, that are vital to how, to what happens next. Um, 10,000 hours is, is the right, like, description and reference. Um, and all those open mic nights, and I was busking when I was in Brighton as well, which is kind of wild. You're just walking down the street with a guitar on your shoulder, and then you stop amongst all the other people you're walking next to. And you have the balls, the confidence, somehow the courage, to start singing at people in the middle of the street. It was always terrifying until I was sort of getting into the first chorus of a song, and then I could almost sort of blend in. Um, but, but give it some to try and catch some people. Anyway, those, all of that, those times, they are vital. It's about learning about what doesn't work. It's about sometimes, you know, there's people who are, like, hellbent on talking over you, and they've every right to. They've every right to. Um, if they haven't come to see you intentionally or- or it's not a private, you know, actual sort of venue where people buy tickets to come, then they've, they've every right to. And- and it's how... It was always about how I managed in those situations. I remember going into noisy pubs that wanted to hold an open mic night at the same time, and someone plugging me into a PA saying, "Go on." And me thinking, "This place is rammed, and they're all just having the greatest night of their lives, just having a big old chat, and they're drinking their pints and all this, and I've got to sing into this." And I remember being so excited. I remember thinking, "I'm gonna get them all."I don't know that it worked every single time, but I re- I remember winning over rooms and leaving. So these weren't open mic nights, actually. I remember in between the open mic nights, there'd be some individual who'd see me and say, "Will you come and play at my pub?" Which felt like a real win.

Steven Bartlett 30:47 Mm-hmm.

James Bay 30:48 "Will you come and play at my pub on Thursday night, on Saturday night?" Whatever it might be. Sunday night. I'd say, "Yeah, all right." And half the time they'd say, "There's 20 quid in it for you." And I'd say, "Oh, absolutely." "Play for an hour." "Sure." You could pay me nothing to play for two hours at that time and I'd have done it. I just wanted the opportunity, the stage, the microphone, the opportunity. And I remember, yeah, a couple of, like, really busy rooms full of people who had no idea who I was. And I remember you catch some eyes of people going, "Oh, here he is," you know, another guy plugging in a guitar, you know. "Let- let's all sort of speak up a bit when he sort of pipes up." I remember thinking, "I'm gonna get you."

Steven Bartlett 31:25 It's interes- one of the really interesting things I was just thinking about as you were explaining that story is how the environment in which you started your career in those pubs, noisy pubs, trying to, you know-

James Bay 31:34 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:34 ... get people's attention, uh, you described it as actually changing the music. You would go home and say-

James Bay 31:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:40 ... "Okay, the chorus held them-"

James Bay 31:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:41 "... but this part didn't."

James Bay 31:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:42 So the environment actually changed the creative, because you, you realized that attention, you learned very early that attention is, is the thing.

James Bay 31:50 We'll all listen to a good song.

Steven Bartlett 31:52 Yeah.

James Bay 31:53 But, you know, people forget the ones that aren't as ... that aren't good enough. That's a, that's a, a, a quite a sort of brutal sort of comment in itself, because I, I, you know, I can't guarantee that every song I've ever written will hold every room in the world every time. But I still love it enough to try again and try harder. Um, so yeah, it do- it does change the mus- it absolutely changes the music, because un- until I changed those things, I was just playing, I was playing something that wasn't ... 'Cause I was often going back to the same rooms. Not always, and it, it always eventually changed, but I would go back to the same place because that's just another place that I knew I could go and play a few songs. Um, and if across a two-week period I didn't get round to changing some stuff and I still played the same song, then it, it just wasn't ... Every time it wasn't working. Every time I was getting them for the same minute in the song. Maybe it was the second chorus or something. So yeah, it ... You have to adapt. If you just keep taking the same thing and ultimately flogging a dead horse, I was never ... If I kept doing that, I was never going to be on any s- any of the stages, uh, that I'd seen my heroes on. You know, when I was a kid at home and I was being affected by all that stuff I saw on TV, on VH1, Pop Up Video, or even music in movies, or, or any live stuff that I got to see on TV, you know, that was broadcast on TV, um, I dreamt about being on those stages in front of all the people that my heroes were in front of. So many people singing their words back. And I was never going to get there if I just stubbornly took around the same song that I wrote when I was 17 that I might have thought in my heart of hearts was so incredible. That doesn't matter. I have to open my mind up to what other people think and accept it. I was trying to understand and learn that as a 16-year-old, 17-year-old, before I got to Brighton. Um, when, when we were, me and my brother and, and, and Tom, we were in a band as f- 13, 14-year-olds, and then we were in another one as 15, 16-year-olds, and, and, and 16, 17 into 18 into 19, then I left, the bands kept changing. I just said, "A- another one and another one." Often I was moving it on.

Steven Bartlett 33:54 Right.

James Bay 33:55 Because, uh, something wasn't quite good enough, but ... And so I thought, "Well, let's change it into this, and let's change it into this thing, and let's tweak that bit and that bit, and let's make that bit better. And we'll change the band name and we'll be this and we'll ... and it'll be fresh for people, and then we'll keep them." I don't know why I was thinking about that back then in such a sort of like A&R kind of-

Steven Bartlett 34:16 (laughs)

James Bay 34:17 ... mindset, but I was. And, uh, I still sort of do.

Steven Bartlett 34:22 When you ... So six weeks after that clip of you singing in a pub-

James Bay 34:25 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:25 ... um, six weeks after that clip goes online, you end up signing a record deal in New York, right?

James Bay 34:31 Yeah, but it was f-

Steven Bartlett 34:32 R-

James Bay 34:32 There was two visits to, to New York, so it was probably-

Steven Bartlett 34:34 Right.

James Bay 34:34 ... more like sort of couple of months, two or three. Uh-

Steven Bartlett 34:36 Better for the story to say six.

James Bay 34:38 Let's go six.

Steven Bartlett 34:38 (laughs)

James Bay 34:39 It was actually, it was 98 days-

Steven Bartlett 34:41 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

James Bay 34:42 ... and four hours.

Steven Bartlett 34:43 V- very quickly after that, that clip, you, you end up signing this record deal. And then soon after that, your first EP comes-

James Bay 34:49 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:50 ... to the world, The Dark of the Morning.

James Bay 34:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:52 Five tracks.

James Bay 34:53 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 34:53 I listened to it earlier on.

James Bay 34:54 Oh yeah? (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 34:55 Yeah. It wasn't on Spotify, so I had to go on Apple Music.

James Bay 34:57 Sorry about that. There you go. Okay.

Steven Bartlett 34:58 Sorry, you owe me, you owe me 16 quid. (laughs)

James Bay 35:00 Oh. I said, I wish it was 16 quid on Apple Music.

Steven Bartlett 35:02 Well, just for the, just for the subscription of Apple. No, no, no.

James Bay 35:04 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 35:04 It's all good. It was really ... It's r- really great album,

Steven Bartlett 35:06 and-

James Bay 35:06 Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 35:06 What was that like then? That first EP goes out into the world. Does your life change at that point?

James Bay 35:11 Um, it, there was a change. It all felt too fast. I think once I, once I signed a record deal, as exciting as the initial sort of part of the ride was, everything started to move quite fast. And in hindsight, what I r- realize, I was nervous about the pace of things, but I had this huge, um ... I don't know what to call it. It's a record label, obviously. This, this, this, this huge, like, backing, this body of people who wholeheartedly believed in me and wanted to sort of throw me kind of in at the deep end, but really just sort of throw me in the ocean where it's all really going on. I'd been like on the shore training, open mic nights, little shows, solo acoustic stuff, whatever, writing, trying to get better. Staying up all night, writing, using all that idle time.

Steven Bartlett 35:58 Learning to swim. (laughs)

James Bay 35:59 Learning to swim.

Steven Bartlett 36:00 Mm-hmm.

James Bay 36:00 And then they, they basically looked at me having visited, uh, New York a couple times and played them some songs and gone, "Oh, you're ready to be in the sea. You're not, like, surfing a big wave yet, but we're gonna put you in the sea now." And I was like, "Whoa." Um, so it, it, it, it was fast, uh, but-

Steven Bartlett 36:18 Within a year, you, you've got a headline, sold out UK tour.

James Bay 36:21 Yeah. There was ... And, and, you know, on the one hand, yes. On the other hand, it was rooms full of sort of 50 to 100 people, but they were all there to see me for the first time ever. They were all ... They'd all bought a ticket because somehow they'd found my music, uh, they'd found the EP. Which again, like, because of where streaming was at, it didn't go straight onto Spotify and Apple and all that stuff. It was some like SoundCloud-like thing. It wasn't even SoundCloud that it went onto where people had to go and find it. And they think they had a, they had a choice maybe to pay, pay if they wanted to.... which is kind of sweet.

Steven Bartlett 36:50 Like Bandcamp days?

James Bay 36:51 Kind of, yeah. But it wasn't, (laughs) it wasn't even Bandcamp. I mean, I don't know, I wasn't there yet. But, um, so I had those songs and they, they were like, "Let's record." There was like couple of months between signing, recording that EP, and releasing it. It felt very fast. And it was exciting, but yeah, I'd been in this training mentality, where I- which I was doing kind of at my own pace. I was trying to do it all the time. I was constantly sort of training, as I say. But I didn't, I didn't appreciate there would kind of be an end to that, in a way. In another respect, I'm sort of still training. But at that time, with what was going on, it was like, "No, we're gonna step up a gear now. And there's a few more people involved, and they're gonna push you onto bigger stages, literally and metaphorically." Um, so I didn't feel fully ready for it, and I'm kind of glad. I don't think you're supposed to ever be completely ready for any of these things.

Steven Bartlett 37:41 Things move even faster from then on, right? 'Cause your, your second EP comes out, Let It Go-

James Bay 37:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 37:46 ... and then your album comes out in the same year. (laughs) ?

James Bay 37:48 The album was March 2015.

Steven Bartlett 37:50 Okay, the - station.

James Bay 37:51 EP was, was, so it's the same six months.

Steven Bartlett 37:53 Okay.

James Bay 37:53 It was just 2014 into 2015. And, uh, Let It Go, um, had come out towards the end of the summer before, and, and, and then, and then the album in 2015. And, uh, I remember Let It Go as a song. I loved the song. I've never known really, I can't write a song and say, "That's a hit, guys." That's just not, I can't, I don't do that. Um, I've tried. I've tried. But it's not really sort of my calling to be able to do that. I write the songs, and I remember writing Hold Back The River, and everybody at the label and my managers and everyone sort of jumping for joy and thinking that they had a hit on their hands. Which was very exciting to be a part of, and I think at the time I thought, "Really? How do you know that?" And then they worked, they did their thing. They went to work, and they got that song around the world, and I got that song around the world, I suppose, as well. Um, and it kinda took off. But Let It Go was an interesting moment, because I remember doing lots of different festivals in America and all round the world. I remember a place, there's a festival called Outside Lands, which is in San Francisco or near San Francisco, and, um, I s- I, I got on stage in this sort of valley-type-shaped bit of land, uh, throughout this sort of outdoors festival, 'cause there were sort of banks of grass at the sides. Quite a big stage, and it felt like quite a lot of people, sort of, 3,000, 4,000 people. I was like, "Wow, this is exciting." And they all sang the words to Let It Go, every single word, particularly the choruses. And we filmed it as well, on, like on my phone or whatever. And it was amazing. And I came offstage and the promoter said... I hadn't, I hadn't met him. I was like one of the newer artists on the festival. He said, "That was incredible." He said, "You were in front of 20,000 people there." I was like, "No way." I said, "They were all... Did you hear? They were all singing the words." He said, "Yeah, 20,000 people singing the words." He said, "We'll have you back." I said, "Thanks," and I sort of went on my way. But, um, that was a real moment where everyone recognized that there was Hold Back The River and there was Let It Go as well, and Let It Go might be able to carry this album as well. So that was... Things moved faster again. I remember actually, (laughs) as far as things moving fast, we got on a plane after that show in San Francisco, at that festival. We flew down to LA, we crossed the airport, we got on a plane to Australia, we flew for 15 hours, we did a show in Sydney, and then we got on a plane and we flew back to LA and carried on the tour. So we went to Sydney to do a show for about... We went to Sydney for about barely 36 hours. 30 of them were on a plane. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 40:13 Where's the idle time?

James Bay 40:16 Idle time on a plane is, like, not what every-

Steven Bartlett 40:18 (laughs)

James Bay 40:18 ... what it's all sort of cracked up to be. You can't get your guitar out and start writing, so, um, I guess it's like emergency rest time, in a way-

Steven Bartlett 40:26 Mm-hmm.

James Bay 40:26 ... to try and get your head down on a plane. Which is, as we all know, kind of tough. But, um, yeah, it... Idle time starts to sort of disappear a little bit. And it felt like... Writing a song in a hotel room on tour felt like such a heavy cliché to me, though. I was never very good at that either. I've got better at it now. But we had a lot of time in hotels, and I was crap at using that h- that idle time to, to write more songs.

Steven Bartlett 40:49 What did you feel like throughout that process? You put, you know, you put the album out, uh, um, uh, in 2015, was right?

James Bay 40:56 Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:56 So 2015, put the album out. That is a smash hit. Um, Let It Go is one of my favorite songs.

James Bay 41:02 Oh.

Steven Bartlett 41:03 And it's so funny, 'cause when I listen to that song, it takes me back to so many just times in my life.

James Bay 41:08 Yeah?

Steven Bartlett 41:08 So many times in my life. I was listening to it before, and I almost started to feel the (laughs) feelings of, like, the relationship heartbreak-

James Bay 41:16 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 41:16 ... that I was going through-

James Bay 41:17 Sure.

Steven Bartlett 41:17 ... when I was, when I was that age, and-

James Bay 41:19 Funny man. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:20 Bruh, I played that song all the time. All the time.

James Bay 41:22 I'm glad you like it. Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 41:24 So i- it's funny how m- music has that power of just sending you back to... <|agent|><|en|>

James Bay 41:27 For what it's worth, just as a sort of, maybe an interesting little sort of side fact, I recorded that album at the end of 2013 and at the beginning of 2014, two, two stints. And it came out in 2015. Um, but I finished recording in January 2014. Uh, September 2020 was the first time I listened to it after I finished recording it.

Steven Bartlett 41:49 Wow.

James Bay 41:50 I just... I played those songs so much, and I had s- the time of my life. But like, I just... I didn't... You know, it's gonna have something to do with the, the bit of perfectionist in me, and we all have a bit of that. But like, so much sort of pressure and hype felt, felt heaped onto that first release for me, that first big album release, that I, I couldn't listen to it. And I still don't, really. I mean, I don't... I suppose typically I don't spend my time listening to my music once it's out. I have to do so much listening as we're f- finishing the productions and the mixing. And then once it's out, it's, it's less for me. It's so much for the fans. But the f- the f- the frenzy around that music on the first album, in a way, s-... And I don't, um, I don't resent anything or anyone here, but I... It stopped me listening to it. I was playing those songs every day somewhere in the world, live. And, um, yeah, I didn't, I didn't feel a need or a desire to listen to it at all. So it was interesting, six, seven years later, listening sort of for the first time. And for the first time listening and going, "This is decent. This is okay."Work harder, though. Keep trying. That's really the vo- other voice that sort of rings in my ears.

Steven Bartlett 43:06 Chaos and the Calm comes out.

James Bay 43:07 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 43:08 Debuts at number one.

James Bay 43:10 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 43:10 That's crazy.

James Bay 43:11 Yeah. Wow, the things that that sort of does to you emotionally and psychologically. And that I... It's a, it's a, it's a little bit of a trauma in its way, actually. I was... Th- there's... Not to sort of drop names, um, that's not really my style, but I was at a show, a great artist called Maggie Rogers who is just fantastic. I know Maggie and I'm a big fan at the same time. And I was watching this show with Sam Smith, and I... Uh, and Niall from One Direction. Um, three of us are watching this show in LA. And it's like her, her debut album show, and she's had a really great reception, particularly in America, but in various corners of the world as well. And it's a party. It's like a big event, and it was really fun. And that... She's playing a great show. And Sam said, "She's about to go on a roller coaster ride and it will involve trauma." "And it is trauma," he said. And we know all about it. Uh, e- each, each one of us three, he was talking to me and Niall. He said, "We know what that's like." And he said, "We know that nothing could prepare us, could have prepared us for it, and that nobody could've made us understand it was gonna be traumatic in a way, um, beforehand." And we, we, we see it now with Maggie and, and we're s- we're fans of hers and we're so excited, and we can't... You can't communicate that to someone. And because it... I use the word trauma, it's good and bad. And again, I wouldn't change a thing, and I don't think Sam would or Niall or Maggie. I don't think any of them would change a thing about their ascents that they went through.

Steven Bartlett 44:38 Mm-hmm.

James Bay 44:38 But you just said to me, "Chaos and the Calm went s- you know, debut album went straight to number one." It did, and it was amazing, and I'm still trying to work it out to this day, you know, when I talk about sort of trauma. Because it really affects and changes someone's life, and changed my life. Um, and I love so much about what happened and I would, I would love to experience that again. Um, but also it, it changed so much about me and my life, and I'm still trying to work that out. Does any of that make sense?

Steven Bartlett 45:08 All of it makes sense.

James Bay 45:09 Cool.

Steven Bartlett 45:10 The part of the trauma that en- changed you, what is that part?

James Bay 45:15 Hmm. Great expectations follow.

Steven Bartlett 45:21 Ah.

James Bay 45:23 That's difficult. And I thought my duty was to come with something brand new again, second album, third album. And I'm, I'm having a great time. I've just put out my third album and I'm, I'm... I can't believe I even get to say that. It's g- it went in... It was number four. It's a top five album. Not everybody gots to, gets to say that about their third album, so I'm so grateful for the reaction. I really am. And yet, there's a part of me that, you know, spent such a long time promoting that first album after it came out that, you know, uh, I would like to create that exact same experience again for different music that I've made. That is easier said than done every single time. The chances of anyone getting a number one album at any time, there's only one number one spot, you know. Um, me, as a lover of so much music, with so many influences and inspirations, different artists, records, songs, I put a handful of those into... At the end of the day, I put a handful of those into my first album, what inspired it, you know. And then that created, uh, me as an artist. And I arrived, you know, The Shock of the New on my debut album, and a bunch of people around the world said, "Yeah, I'll buy that." Literally and metaphorically, "I'll buy that. I'm into that." And I represented something to them. I can't believe that. To this day, I can't believe I represented something to them that they were willing to sort of buy into and, and want to share, and, and kind of agree with, and, and feel th- the words and the, and the melodies in, in, in their way. And then another album, it's time for another album. It was about showing a different side to myself. And I appreciate now in the fullness of time with the greatest perspective, or with greater perspective, years after my second album release, that only I am in my head. Nobody else is. So, um, it was interesting who, uh, received the second album, who, who... Of all the people that got on board for the release of my first album and followed my music and me as an artist, some of them came for the second album. Some of them, I guess, kinda went, "Oh, it's not the same thing, so I'll just sort of come back when maybe it's..." I don't... I, I can't sort of speak for people. But, um, my expectation, naively, was that I could do the same thing again by s- surprising people with something they hadn't had before, because they hadn't had my debut album before. And, um, it didn't quite go the way I hoped it would go. As I say that, I don't wanna sound ungrateful because I had so many people around the world really love my second album, and I'm so grateful for those people. Um-

Steven Bartlett 48:15 It peaked at number two in the album charts, right?

James Bay 48:16 Yeah, I, I can't... I really cannot complain in the slightest. And when the one above it is this... It's a soundtrack to a movie, it was The Greatest Showman, that, that just reigned supreme for so long in 2018 at the top of the charts. There was various number of other artists who didn't, unfortunately, sort of beat that soundtrack either, so they all kind of went to number two as well. But it did, it peaked at number two. People loved it, and they're still telling me that they do, and I'm... You know. There's, there's a, there's a real sort of a clash between my gratitude towards all of those, that reception, and the other part of my brain that I suppose bought into the hype of my first album and, and wanted the same frenzy.

Steven Bartlett 48:58 In hindsight now, if you could go back and you could just move the order of things-

James Bay 49:03 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 49:04 You know what I'm gonna say, right? You could just move the order of things. Would you mo- maybe put, you know, Electric Light first?

James Bay 49:13 Oh, good... I don't know.

Steven Bartlett 49:14 'Cause then that would have managed the expectations, right?

James Bay 49:17 Yeah, right.

Steven Bartlett 49:17 The expectations is always the curse of happiness. It's always the killer of everything.

James Bay 49:20 Course.

Steven Bartlett 49:20 'Cause if I told you, when you were whatever age-

James Bay 49:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:23 ...that your album would da- would peak at number two in the album charts, you'd be over the fucking moon.

James Bay 49:26 I would leap.

Steven Bartlett 49:27 (laughs)

James Bay 49:27 Yeah, I would leap. I'd jump for joy. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:29 Leap that nice little Boom, boom, boom.

James Bay 49:30 Sorry, that was awful.

Steven Bartlett 49:31 (laughs) Yeah.

James Bay 49:31 Can we go again on that?

Steven Bartlett 49:32 No.

James Bay 49:32 I would jump for joy.

Steven Bartlett 49:34 (laughs)

James Bay 49:34 I did not mean that. Sorry.

Steven Bartlett 49:35 But would you move the order of things, honestly?

James Bay 49:37 No. No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I wouldn't move the order of things at all. Um...

Steven Bartlett 49:45 Because the psychological difficulty comes from purely the fact that you have to com- almost compete with your own success, right?

James Bay 49:53 Yes, it does, but it was all my choice at the end of the day. And I- I do stand by it. I love Electric Light, and, um, it came when it came. I, I... What's interesting is, Electric Light, I'm so proud of and I adore it, every song. It was also a reaction to what I felt personally, to me, was- was, like, almost overkill on my first album. I had had enough of who I was when I was roaming around the world on the Kaos and the Calm campaign. What I represented, and the songs that I was playing. I needed to stop all of that for a minute, for two reasons. One, it was exhausting. I'm s- I keep wanting to throw this in. I was very grateful to have that experience, like beyond grateful. But I just, uh, for my soul and my mental health, I needed to creatively kinda go elsewhere. Um, uh, so, so, so I did. And I- and I also just had, like I say to you, as a- as a creative, more than one thing or one set of things inspires me to do what I do. And I wanted to celebrate that in the music I created for a second album. So I went deep on David Bowie and Blondie and Prince and LCD Soundsystem, all that list of artists and more. I love, love that music. And, uh, I don't know that that resonated in the same way with all the fans of the first album. It certainly did with some of them, and maybe it didn't so much with others. Um, I can't control any of that. The only thing I can control is what I create, and that I do. There is a, there is so much of a part of what I create that I do for myself, which I think is the same for every artist. Um, so, so I chose to do that. Uh, so you see what I'm saying? In ways it was a reaction to something I needed to do as a reaction to how my first album campaign had gone.

Steven Bartlett 51:57 When you-

James Bay 51:58 So I wouldn't have changed the- the things around, like, you know, the order of

James Bay 52:01 things.

Steven Bartlett 52:01 When you, when you spoke about mental health there-

James Bay 52:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:04 ...when was your first sort of introduction to mental health?

James Bay 52:07 Good question, um, because it, of course, has become so talked about in the last-

Steven Bartlett 52:13 Yeah.

James Bay 52:13 ...five years?

Steven Bartlett 52:14 Yeah.

James Bay 52:14 It's suddenly become, like, more okay than ever to speak openly about it. My first introduction to mental health.

Steven Bartlett 52:22 When I ask that question, I mean, you're... I remember, at one point, thinking... So the timeline of my relationship with mental health is, people with mental health, at one point, maybe 10, 15 years ago when I was younger, I thought it meant that you were crazy. And then, as- as I experienced things myself and then there was a word for them, I understood that we all have mental health-

James Bay 52:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:41 ...and that we're all... None of us are too tough to experience-

James Bay 52:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:44 ...different mental health predicaments at times. And then going through my own journey with mental health-

James Bay 52:49 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 52:49 ...that's when I was like, "Ah, okay, I understand now."

James Bay 52:52 As a kid, I thought it meant someone was unhappy and you couldn't help them, depressed and- and- and unable to be helped. Um, and as I grew up, I remember struggling with... Uh, you know, as a teenager, to be male and talk about your feelings wasn't the f- should never be the sort of first choice. I- I remember feeling like it was, uh, it was more about, "Can you suck it up, though?"

Steven Bartlett 53:24 Is that your dad talking?

James Bay 53:25 (sighs) My dad has been on his, uh, been on his own journey with mental health pr- previous to me even being born. He- he had some struggles, and he did, he did talk to some professionals about it, and I really respect that. So actually, it wasn't my dad talking. Um, it's funny though. He comes from those kind of attitudes. Both my parents come from those kind of attitudes. You know, it's that stiff-upper-lip thing again, that kinda brush it all under the rug thing again. I come from that. You know, difficult things, we don't talk about them then, or we shout about them. No in between. And I didn't want the chaos of the shouting as a kid and as a teenager. I never wanted that. It was always too much to deal with. So I joined the sort of brush it under the rug brigade. Um, and so it took me until I was into my 20s. It took me until I was touring extensively and relentlessly, so really only five, six, maybe seven years ago, for me to sort of finally understand that life can take a toll on people when it's, when it, when it's relentless. When work is relentless or when anything in life is sort of relentless and weighing down or- or bearing heavy, it can take a toll. And it's okay to talk about that to try and relieve some pressure and some strain and some stress. That came as a result of various individuals that I was touring with or that I knew doing their own touring needing to stop for a bit-... maybe speak to a therapist to help them, and that it was okay. So it only came in the last sort of s- few years for me.

Steven Bartlett 55:21 Reading back through your story, 2019 was a bit of a mixed year. That's when you did the tour with, uh, Ed Sheeran. And I- I- I was reading about almost this conflict that you're undergoing, which is, "I need to show up and perform and be who I, you know, who I have this responsibility to be," but also this other conflict of, like, you just weren't feeling good.

James Bay 55:39 Yeah. Uh, I sort of have encountered various sort of people, fans, pe- or, or, or not, or people I work with or, or people interviewing me or whatever, who... And this is ultimately, like, really quite flattering. They think I'm, you know... I, I don't know how to put it other than, like, bigger than I feel I am as an artist. I don't know if I agree with them. And so I felt like an imposter syndrome, essentially, in that time. Uh, on the one hand, I'm being, uh, you know... It's really disproportionate and, and, and, and probably unhealthy when I think, "Okay, Ed Sheeran has invited me to open for him in football stadiums around Europe for three months. There's 80,000 people every night. Wow." And the bit I hate to admit and I'm anxious to confess is that there's a part, there's a voice in my head saying, "Why aren't you doing the stadiums, you..." I call myself all sorts of names. "Why isn't it your show? Come on." I feel ridiculous saying that. I also just feel... It's a little embarrassing because I'm doing good. And I don't wanna sort of get ahead of my station or I don't wanna seem, like, big-headed, but I tell you, I am very ambitious and driven. Everybody is. I understand that, and I am in my way. And so I do want those kind of, uh, rewards of selling out such an enormous venue, and so many and so often, in the way that s- he, he... Ed's an example. And, and also I will say that, Lenno, I, I... He, he was kind enough to have me on that tour as the main support act who would go on right before him. There was th- three of us most of the time, uh, you know, opener, second opener, me, the third opener, and then him. And it, it, it was pretty wonderful and exciting to find that in, in almost every stadium it was, it was a third of that crowd, which rounds out at approximately 20,000 or 30,000 people, singing all the words to my songs. Which was just... A- again, I was very thankful in that moment that he brought me in front of such big crowds because, um, it was exciting to see that I... my music was still reaching, and it, it stopped my ambitions and my drive feeling silly.

Steven Bartlett 58:06 The bit, the bit I sh- I was a little bit confused about there is, you're saying you felt like an imposter in those moments. But the voice is saying... So I would expect the voice in your head to be saying, "Why are you here?" But the voice in your head is saying, "Why aren't you at the top of the bill?"

James Bay 58:19 "Why isn't it your show? Why don't you have your own stadium show?" Or, you know, even a, you know, arena show, whatever it may be. "Why are your crowds not bigger yet, James?"

Steven Bartlett 58:28 Gosh, that's such an insidious thought, isn't it? Because if you're James Bay big and you still have that voice whispering about that, fuck me.

James Bay 58:37 Yeah, it's pretty fucking intense. And I appreciate that, like, it's probably a bit cruel.

Steven Bartlett 58:44 Cruel is a good word.

James Bay 58:48 It's just a... It's a standard issue, I suppose, it's a sort of s... Or sorry, it's a standards issue. It's I, I... You know, I'm, I'm holding myself to a standard that might be unrealistic, but then I'm so driven and, uh, I f- or I feel so driven and ambitious to achieve those kinds of things that I can't shake that voice.

Steven Bartlett 59:06 Where's that voice coming from?

James Bay 59:08 Deep inside (laughs) . Um, deep inside because it's, it's, it's s- sort of a voice I recognize from various chapters of my life. Uh, it's... On the one hand, I was, I was too sort of timid and uninterested in, in drinking and partying as a teenager to sort of go out and get amongst it. On the other hand, that voice was talking to me back then, saying, "Don't waste your time doing that, James. Get better at songwriting. Get better at singing. Get better at playing guitar. Get to the point where it's, it's, you know, you're able to confidently play well and, and make it look effortless. Get to that point. And then, you know, then maybe we can have a night off."

Steven Bartlett 59:58 Well, you got to that point. And that, and you-

James Bay 59:59 I'm still, I'm still... Yeah, I'm s- I'm still working, uh, uh, in my mind.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:04 Is there not a, a bit of a fear in, in terms of, "Listen, if I'm, if I'm playing in a big arena, there's 20,000 people, they're all singing the words back to me, and I still have that voice whispering inside my head saying, 'This is not enough,' or, 'You've not achieved enough,' then that voice will always be there regardless of the, the height or how high up-"

James Bay 1:00:20 I think-

Steven Bartlett 1:00:20 "... the ladder you are."

James Bay 1:00:21 ... I think so. I think s- therefore, trying to kinda come to terms with it is one of my big exercises at the moment.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:27 'Cause it's holding your happiness hostage, right?

James Bay 1:00:29 Kind of. Yes. And I know that it's winding up my managers, for example, who I have a very close and longstanding relationship with, people I cherish. And they're saying, "James, like, mate, um, you, you've g- you've got to sort of rein that in. You've got to s- try and find a way to rein that in because, because it's okay."

Steven Bartlett 1:00:50 Hmm.

James Bay 1:00:51 More okay than I f- I'm, I'm able to realize half the time. So, um... And I don't want to jeopardize my relationship with them or, or all sorts of people. Um, I'm working out, therefore, that I can potentially control some of the unhappiness and, and make my life better and easier as a result.... I'm just trying to tame the various voices.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:23 What do those voices say today?

James Bay 1:01:29 They say, some of them say, "Oh, it's very nice to be here. You've been invited to talk on this, on this podcast that's had so many exciting guests." Some of those voices say, "Yeah, they just, they had someone pull out so they got you last minute because, you know, they, you know, there was someone exciting who, who, you know, who clearly... You're a backup. You're just a, you're just a backup, you know. You're just somebody who they thought, 'Oh, all right, I guess,' you know." There's a, there's a voice that's quite extensive in those kind of details and, and, and sort of takes me apart a little bit. Um, so there's, it's versions of one of th- that one voice and it's versions of that other voice that are, that are speaking in my, uh, uh, often in my head. And, and, and that's what they're saying.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:15 All of these voices, they have, they have adverse consequences. Some of those consequences are positive, in the light of the world. They turn into drive and motivation or perfectionism-

James Bay 1:02:26 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:26 ... which end up producing really wonderful art. Obviously, some of the consequences of those voices can be very, um, personally, as it relates to your happiness, detrimental.

James Bay 1:02:36 Right.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:37 Talk to me first about, 'cause I wanna talk about the positives-

James Bay 1:02:39 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:39 ... that those voices have, you know-

James Bay 1:02:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:41 ... manifestation on that side. But talk to me about the, the, the negative detrimental impact of being, having those voices.

James Bay 1:02:51 The longer I sort of exist with these voices, the, the, the, the, the negative ones, um, the more they can have an effect unfortunately, a negative effect. The more that they can sort of, um, they can stop me going out into the world and doing certain things, you know. The more they can get into my head and sort of inhibit my ability to sort of speak to you in a free-flowing way, for example. Or, um, go to a party I've been invited to by an artist I might know or by a, by somebody whose work I might admire. I, I, I'm being sort of hypothetical in that respect, but it could very much sort of be a, that could be a reality. And the benefits of coming and speaking to you, and the benefits of going to some party or whatever, are just that those are the things that color life. And that's, that's just a good thing. Um, but sometimes the voices get so loud that, that, that I don't go and do these things. And I, and, and I, my life remains kind of gray, uh, just personally and privately. And that's not helpful till when I get that idle time back in the moments that I do. Because all the things that color life feed wonderfully in my, most of my experience into that idle time, whether I do create something or not. Um, so they, they are an obstacle, they are a barrier, those, those negative voices. And I'm trying to grow and get better at sort of managing them and dealing with them, and understanding that no voices, no narratives kind of go away entirely happy or sad. They, they don't. You know, 2019 was a difficult year, and I've learned since then, through various types of therapy, one of those is songwriting for me, another one is typical sort of therapy as we know it, speaking to somebody. I've, I've, I've, I've learned a little bit more about sort of being able to quiet the, the negative voices or control them a little bit. Um, you can never do any one of these things 100%.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:02 Mm.

James Bay 1:05:02 I'm, I'm learning. Um, and there's a part of my mind that wants 100%.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:07 Yeah.

James Bay 1:05:07 Here, there, everywhere. I want 100% be the headliner at this thing. I want 100% be able to stop those voices so they never come back. And I'm just still sort of trying to learn that there's no 100% anything anywhere.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:19 Mm.

James Bay 1:05:20 Everything is a f- is a, is a gentle sort of balance.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:23 Mm. That's a really liberating thought though, because there are so many people that are still struggling with things after many decades, and that will beat themselves up because it's still there.

James Bay 1:05:31 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:32 And, and I actually had this conversation this week, this weekend? I think this weekend. Yeah, it was on Saturday morning with my girlfriend, where I said one of the things I've come to learn from doing this podcast, and just my own sort of early traumas, is that we shouldn't hold ourself to the standard of completely ridding ourselves of our trauma or insecurities. It's really about diminishing the power they have over you to the point that your decision-making can be made through another set of stories.

James Bay 1:05:32 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:32 So like with relationships-

James Bay 1:05:32 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:32 ... I have a lot of traumas, so I still have those, and I'm still, I still think to some degree a relationship is prison. Maybe 40% now. It's still there, but the 60% is like, "You're being an idiot. Fucking get on with it." (laughs)

James Bay 1:05:32 And it's 60 rather than-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:32 Yeah, it's 60, you know-

James Bay 1:05:32 ... as a, as a gentle sort of balance.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:32 Mm. That's a really liberating thought though, because there's so many people that are still struggling with things after many decades, and that will beat themselves up because it's still there.

James Bay 1:05:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:32 And, and I actually had this conversation this week, this weekend? I think this weekend. Yeah, it was on Saturday morning with my girlfriend, where I said one of the things I've come to learn from doing this podcast and just my own sort of early traumas is that we shouldn't hold ourself to the standard of completely ridding ourselves of our trauma or insecurities. It's really about diminishing the power they have over you to the point that your decision-making can be made through another set of stories.

James Bay 1:05:55 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:56 So like with relationships-

James Bay 1:05:57 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:57 ... I have a lot of traumas, so I still have those and I'm still, I still think to some degree a relationship is prison. Maybe 40% now. It's still there, but the 60% is like, "You're being an idiot. Fucking get on with it." (laughs)

James Bay 1:06:08 And it's 60 rather than-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:10 Yeah, it's 60, you know-

James Bay 1:06:10 ... 60 that makes the decision. But, so yeah. Perspective, trying to sort of gather a better and a broader perspective on your present circumstance or whatever, or me on my present sort of circumstance, trying to sort of get the full context-

Steven Bartlett 1:06:26 Mm.

James Bay 1:06:26 ... certainly helps the negative voices quiet down a little bit.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:32 In 2019, you said you described it as feeling like you were drowning.

James Bay 1:06:35 Yeah. And that was definitely t- uh, had a lot to do with the, the, the negative voices and feeling like they were all getting way too loud and way too much and way too overpowering. And, and it could feel at times like I was sort of drowning in those. And there was such a stark contrast between the walking on stage with the big s- sort of smile and the, and the grand gestures and the performance, 'cause that's a real spike in the day. It's a real high. It's wonderful and it's a real process. And I know it to the point that a lot of it is sort of like muscle memory. I'm in the moment, no question. I'm in the moment. I'm very present. But I know how to do all sorts of things on stage, and I know I'm good at them and I've done them for 35 minutes and I'm off stage and the voices are back. I'm walking down the steps from the stage and the voices are back in there. Um-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:23 Saying what?

James Bay 1:07:25 ... saying it could have been better, saying they're just waiting for Ed Sheeran on that tour. So, yeah, which they were, granted. (laughs) But, like, um, they'd take even something like that, that was okay. You know, it's okay that, you know, it's very exciting and, uh, and flattering and, and humbling that I've been invited to open on that tour. And that's what it is. But the voices were tw- turning those things around on me and saying... and, and using them as a reason to tell me I wasn't good enough.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:52 What has therapy taught you about that, those voices?

James Bay 1:07:55 Well, the things I've just said, really. They, they, it, it's tau- therapy's taught me, um... Very sort of crucially, it's taught me that they're not gonna go away entirely. And I think that's been a really important thing to learn and talk about again and again and again. Because I can be quite, um, uh... I can't think of the word, but I, I, I would absolutely like, like to work out how, the, what the ingredients, what the recipe is to get them to go away forever. I'd like to know what it is and use it and be done with it, and never hear from them again. And so therapy's teaching me still that, um, it's, it's actually, it's not... That's not the process. The process is about talking with them and asking them, "Hey," you know, reasoning with myself.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:42 Mm-hmm.

James Bay 1:08:42 Reasoning with them. Bringing in more context.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:46 Mm-hmm.

James Bay 1:08:47 Um, bringing in a, a, a broader perspective and then asking myself, you know, are these voices right, honestly? 'Cause in the worst moments, I'm saying, "Yeah, you're absolutely right," to all these voices, and I'm not good enough.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:01 In 2019, when you feel like you were drowning, what are the symptoms of that? What are the, what would a, what are the symptoms?

James Bay 1:09:07 That's a har- that's a har- that's a good question and a hard one to answer. The symptoms are so invisible to most people, everybody really, and often me. Because I'm, I, I, I feel a sort of duty, sadly, sometimes in my personal li- private life as well, to be so on, so much of the time. Sometimes there's a, uh, uh, you know, like a sort of drug I use to keep myself high. (laughs) It, it feels like that, because that means that I don't have to feel the sort of despair. Um, you know, a- again, like when I go back to my parents, my fa- my family, my home life, they had lots of people around, very social people. And everything was very, um, up or it was shouting and fury or it was like calm water. There was no in between. Um, and it sort of t- it turned me into this person where, you know, if, if, if there are two sides in a river in between and, you know, there are two banks, and I'm on one bank and I wanna get to the other bank, um, I always try and jump over the river. Uh, and that's not... That's, that, the... I, I need to get better at getting in the water, getting a bit wet, wading through against the currents that are trying to send me downstream. And, like, climbing out the other side and drying off, and it all taking the time that it takes. 'Cause you typically... Like, um, the river I'm talking about is never any less than, like, 20 feet wide. So I'm not jumping over it. You can't. I can't fly. I'm gonna have to just get in the water and go through.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:47 What is the river in that metaphor?

James Bay 1:10:49 Um, the river is so many things in that metaphor. Uh, it's all the, it, it, it's, it's the, the river is the dealing with those voices. It's probably confronting, you know, some of the issues that I've carried forward from, from my sort of childhood, if not a lot of those issues. The river is the fighting with an im- uh, an imposter syndrome, uh, an issue with imposter syndrome. Um, the river is kind of a lot of the sort of demons that I have ultimately. Um, but, but, but getting in the water would g- would give me sort of perspective. And wading through, it, that teaches a lot probably about like it being, e- everything being about the journey rather than the destination. In my f- in my household at home, it was about we're furious, we need to get to not furious, so we'll force ourselves straight there.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:44 By blocking things out.

James Bay 1:11:45 And there'll be no processing and talking about who feels what and how, and how it makes them feel, this, that or the other. Um, the perspective is, is, uh, you know, very important. Zooming out, i- i- in my life, I find is, is, is helpful very often. Somebody actually... Not to go off on too much of a tangent here, but, uh, it really resonated with me. Only a couple of days ago, someone from my label was telling me about her time, a long time ago now actually, but she was working with, uh, the Bee Gees and, uh, it was in the early '90s. And they're a household name to us today. We know, everybody knows the Bee Gees music like they know other household names. And this lady was talking to me, she was saying, I, she said, "I was about to turn 34 and I was working with Barry Gibb. And he said, um, 'What do you think of my music? What do you think of me as an artist?'" She'd been s- s- quite open with him about, "I'm about to turn 34. I'm ancient." People in pop music think they're ancient beyond 21, everybody. Um, and s- he, he said, "No, you're not. No, you're not. You're not ancient. Don't be silly." 'Cause he was in his 50s or something at the time. He said, "What do you, what do you think of my music? What do you, what do you know about me?" She, she said, "You're a legend." She said, "You're just, you're a household name legend. I love all your records. You're, you're brilliant." He said, "You know what?" He said to her, "When I was 33, I'd just got divorced, I'd fallen out with my brothers. Um, I hadn't had a song on the radio for years. Uh, if we were doing any gigs, we were playing working men's clubs." This was the late '70s, I think. And he said, "I was 33 and we'd had our initial sort of spike, our high, our hits, late '60s, very early '70s."... we had it all, and it went away. And I always believed that in pop and in music and in entertainment you have y- you have your big moment, and then it's all down from there." Um, he said, "And then someone offered us the opportunity to write a soundtrack for a movie. The movie was Saturday Night Fever. And obviously ever since then..." You know, he's talking as a 50-something-year-old. He said, "I- it's just been up and up and up from there. And now you're telling me I'm a household name." He said, "I s- unfortunately, if I'm honest," he said, "I d- I still struggle with all sorts of these demons that I'm not good enough in having this and that s- success." But he said, "I've got more perspective now, and I appreciate when you tell me that y- you know, you think my work is so well-known. And I thought before all that, that it was all over." And I just thought it was a decent bit of wisdom from obviously, yes, granted, he's a total legend and, you know, he's g- gonna be quite a good example in that respect. But like, so easy to slip into that mindset of like, "Oh, it's all done. You've had your time." But life is long.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:27 Mm-hmm.

James Bay 1:14:28 I'm trying to remind myself of that.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:32 You're what, 31?

James Bay 1:14:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:34 Fucking nuts.

James Bay 1:14:35 Ancient. No, I'm joking.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:36 (laughs)

James Bay 1:14:37 Um-

Steven Bartlett 1:14:37 That is so l- most people don't start their careers at that, by that point, so.

James Bay 1:14:40 Yeah. I, I, (sighs) yeah. I guess. You know. But the drive is there. I keep coming back to things I've said before, the ambition is there. I've, I, you know, I'm very hungry to, to be doing it.

Steven Bartlett 1:14:56 What are you hungry for?

James Bay 1:14:59 Connection.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:00 And where does that-

James Bay 1:15:01 It's my favorite thing about music.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:01 Where does that come from-

James Bay 1:15:03 Um-

Steven Bartlett 1:15:03 ... in music?

James Bay 1:15:04 I- uh, performance, uh, creating, c- creating, writing, recording, releasing, performing. There, in all of that, is so many opportunities for connection. Not just with fans, but with people I work with as well. I cherish my working relationships. I don't love lots of people coming in and out of my, my sort of work circle. I like to grow with

James Bay 1:15:26 people.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:26 Is there this weird paradox of the thing you're chasing in terms of like, you know, that peak again? You talked to, about this like big moment that you were, you know, you stood there and you watched this young artist who you know is gonna through it.

James Bay 1:15:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:37 But at the same time knowing that there comes a real cost with that. That, 'cause I sometimes when I speak to musicians, it's, I have that a lot where they're like, I think I'm thinking of Craig David, who I think he had his one, number one album at 18.

James Bay 1:15:49 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:15:51 Y- you know, quite honestly says, "You know, I'm, I'm looking for that moment again. But it was also pretty much the worst moment of my life." (laughs)

James Bay 1:15:58 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:15:58 And you think-

James Bay 1:15:58 And it's funny, man. Yeah, and it does come back to that ch- when I referenced trauma and Maggie's concert, and Sam, what he was saying, and, um, it's funny how that, that, that works. But we see there are some real one in a millioners who might have two, three, four consecutive peaks. Um, and, oh, everybody else looks at that. And even the people who go through that look at it as like, but it, something could be better.

Steven Bartlett 1:16:31 Hmm.

James Bay 1:16:31 It's funny, I, like, I can't explain that. And I suffer from it like so many people do. Um, but if nothing else, it's because I really care about and love what I do, and I