The Diary of a CEOJames Bay: Imposter Syndrome, Trauma & Controlling The Voice In Your Head | E166
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,048 words- 0:00 – 1:30
Intro
- JBJames Bay
I remember writing Hold Back the River and everybody at the label jumping for joy and thinking that they had a hit on their hands.
- NANarrator
James Bay! Hold back the river. Let me look in your eyes. Hold back the river so I...
- JBJames Bay
I dreamt about being on those stages in front of all the people that my heroes were in front of. And I remember this burning desire. I was dead certain that I wanted it more than everyone.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Chaos and the Calm comes out, debuts at number one. That's crazy.
- NANarrator
And the winner is James Bay!
- JBJames Bay
Thank you so much. This is insane. Nobody could have made us understand it was gonna be traumatic. Who I was on the Chaos and the Calm campaign, I needed to stop all of that for my soul and my mental health. Yeah, it's pretty fucking intense. Ed Sheeran's invited me to open for him in football stadiums around Europe. And the bit I hate to admit and I'm anxious to confess is that... Life can take a toll on people. To be male and talk about your feelings, it was more about, "Can you suck it up, though?" It's all, like, an act.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Would you do it all again?
- JBJames Bay
(sighs) I'm really concerned about what happens next.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.
- 1:30 – 8:50
Childhood
- SBSteven Bartlett
James. So you're a '90s baby.
- JBJames Bay
Yeah. 1990.
- SBSteven Bartlett
S- same as me, 1992.
- JBJames Bay
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about those early years defined you?
- JBJames Bay
Ooh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And the person you would g- go on to be? When you look back at the dots and say, "Well, that, that, and that is the reason I am who I am," what are those first dots?
- JBJames Bay
I, I grew up in a, in a, um, kinda commuter belt town called Hitchin in Hertfordshire, which is about an hour outside of the center of London. I hated going into London. It's horrible, busy, noisy, smelly, awful. The quiet calm of my little hometown was perfect. It was safe, pretty much safe. Um, I'm the youngest of, of me and my brother, um, and then there's my parents, my mum and my dad. And we don't have my... I only have one cousin who was born ten years after I was born. So we were a small family. It wasn't a big crowd, it wasn't the sort of noisy experience growing up, uh, in that respect. My parents are pretty fiery people and, um, they're kind of party animals in a way. They, they're very social. They're very loud and, and, and, and, um, kind of excitable. So I feel that, that was going on sort of all the time. They had people round all the time and they kind of, I suppose, inspired me and my brother to sort of be okay in all sorts of social situations. And, uh, I think all kids, myself included, go through moments of shyness and moments where they're a little more outgoing, then maybe a little more shy again, then outgoing again. I r- remember most vividly the sort of shyer times and I stood behind my older brother, who would lead nine out of ten times into any situation with other kids or whatever. So I felt I was a more timid person, gentle, compared to my parents and my brother who were more, um, just louder. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Were your parents affectionate?
- JBJames Bay
In a kind of, uh, I wanna say, like, wartime way, stiff upper lip kinda way. My dad was older than other dads. Um, still a great dad, but he, my, you know, he was 42 when I was born. Uh, he's nearly 75. And he comes from, like, very... Well, his parents were, you know, his dad was flying fighter planes in the Second World War. Most of, uh, my friends' parents' parents' parents, like there's a, there's another generation usually involved, whereas for me it was my dad's dad who was doing that. So my parents come from this... You've asked if they were affectionate. Uh, they were affectionate in a sort of steely way.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JBJames Bay
(laughs) Th- th- the, it wasn't, it wasn't sweet and sugary and cuddly, to be honest. For example, when I showed some vague interest in performing of any kind, my mum was less, "Oh, that's nice." She wasn't really, that wasn't her energy. Her energy was like, "Okay, if you're into it, do it and do it like mean it! Go on!" Like it was, it was with a bit of a smile. It wasn't like, it was like enc- it was encouraging and I got on board with it. But, um, ultimately it was like, "If you're gonna give it a shot, don't, don't do it by half. Look at..." And she'd name any one of my heroes and s- or any one of her heroes musically, you know. They, my parents are big music fans. She'd say, "Look at what they give it. You've gotta give it that." And without quite saying it, she was saying, you know, "You have to be believable. It's all, like, an act." Um, so affectionate. Uh, uh, they were encouraging and, and, and they were excited by, for example, when I got into music and wanting to play an instrument and performing and all that. They were excited about it, I think. But they weren't, like, if I wasn't into it, they weren't... You know, if, if the one and a half times in the early, early days that I kind of went, "Oh, I don't know if I wanna play guitar actually. It's probably a bit hard," they weren't like, "Aw."... and they weren't saying, "Try harder then." They were just like, "All right. M- okay."
- SBSteven Bartlett
What about your dad, then, when he finds out that you wanna be, you know, you might wanna pursue that avenue?
- JBJames Bay
Well, one thing my dad, and both my parents, um, said a lot about, and kind of required of me, was that I would do something to earn some money. And actually, go back to, I was 12 or 13 when they first said, "Pocket money's done." And I think I know a lot of kids who were getting that till sort of 16 at the time. Some of them longer. 'Cause there was various kids whose parents weren't... They didn't need their kids to get a job. They just wanted their kids to be kids and have a nice time. And I guess it's not that my parents didn't want me to have a nice time but, from like 12 years old they were like, "There are jobs you can get. There's a paper round, there's this, there's that." And there was a... My dad, who had loved music and going to see music live since he was, you know, much younger, since way before me and my brother came along, he was definitely like, "There's a job at the market." Like, "So-and-so's kid is working down at the market. Go and ask him how he got the job. Try and get the other shift." And I did. I got that shift. My brother got that, one of the shifts as well. And at 13-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JBJames Bay
... in January, at 4:00 AM, I was on my bike, on the way to the market, in the dark. Shivering my nuts off.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JBJames Bay
I remember the, like, anxiety dreams that I would have before getting up for that because as a teenager I just wanted to be asleep for hours and hours and hours. And you're supposed to, like, we know more about that now. It's like really good for teenagers to get as much sleep as they can. Kids of any age, but teenagers apparently, very important. My dad didn't know any of that. Not interested. You know, if James wants to bu- buy guitar strings, 'cause he's snapping them off his guitar half the time, and I can't... He's like, "Well, I can't keep paying for that." Which I respect. I didn't at the time. Um, my dad and my mum... But also 'cause my dad had had jobs as a, as a kid, you know, helping someone at a, like a, you know, a corner shop or something. He, he, he like heartily believed in that and was trying to instill that in us from clearly, you know, very early on because whatever our hobby might have been, he... He's like, "I don't, I don't wanna have to fund it." And I understand that. We don't come from money. You know, we don't... My, my mum was sometimes working and sometimes not because, you know, she was being a stay-at-home m- mum half the time. Um, but, and, and my dad was, was, you know, bringing in the, the, the big bit that, that paid for the family to sort of exist. Um, yeah. So he, he was, uh... He believed as long as we could sort of fund the things that we wanted to do, more or less, then they were doable.
- 8:50 – 23:13
Idle time, insecurities & expectations
- JBJames Bay
- SBSteven Bartlett
You, you talk a lot about how, um, having idle time is really, really important to-
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... discovering who you are, and being a creative, and, and finding yourself. Something I've... It's actually a concept that I've not really heard before talked about from one of my guests is the importance of just having a window of time. And I imagine even today when it comes to creativity, that's, that's maybe a big part of your creative process. Can you talk to me about that, that early age then, how idle time helped you to become who you are?
- JBJames Bay
Um, almost against the odds basically. Uh, it, it helped me become who I am today, and it helped feed my creative everything. Um, what do I mean by that? My mum's the type of person who... So when I was a kid in the house, you know, if I, if I was having some idle time, another way to say that is if I was, wasn't doing anything middle of the afternoon, she'd be on me like, you know, straight away, or my brother, like, "What are you doing? You can't do nothing. You could tidy your room. You could come and clean this thing for me."
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JBJames Bay
"You could go out the back garden and do this thing for me, or you could do that. What do you mean you're doing nothing?" That's my... That's a vivid memory, and it's not like unfair. I, I respect it in certain ways, but I know as a, at this point someone who's sort of professionally kind of creative and, uh, you know, wound up in a position where I can sort of call that my job, that it's very important to be staring out the window. There was some quote, I can't remember who said it, and somebody told me it the other day, and I haven't got any sort of reference names for you, sorry, but a guy said, uh...
- SBSteven Bartlett
Just say it was Einstein.
- JBJames Bay
Einstein, perfect. Um, Einstein's wife said to him, "What are you doing?" He was looking out the window. He said, "I'm working." And that was it. And it's perfect for a creative, that, 'cause it's, it's bang on. That's the... If I'm staring out the window, into space as the rest of us would, might say, then it just looks like I'm staring into space. But I'm probably having an idea for a song, or a lyric, or working something over in my head. I find it hard to say that stuff to you or anybody without worrying that I sound pretentious or like a bit of a dick. Um, but I know that's the experience. When I was a kid thinking about something I wanted to draw, whatever it may have been, and having some of this like idle time, like I say, my mum was like on me like, "No, that's not okay." So maybe that's why I, I, I'm sort of concerned even now that I look like a pretentious idiot.
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, I, I compl- I have to say I completely agree and it's, it's f- logically it makes a ton of sense that you have to clear the mind to allow new ideas to arrive and that we all w- I mean every business, every person that works in a business will know the best ideas don't come from a boardroom. They don't come when you're trying to think of them. They come when you go for a walk, or you're in the shower.
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
All these places where you have that space.
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, so it makes perfect sense.
- JBJames Bay
Y- I remember, uh, David Gilmour in Pink Floyd said, "Every time I sit down, guitar in hand, to write a song in that really creative mood, I wanna write a song, and I'm gonna, and it's gonna be great, nothing comes." And it's, it is generally that way. So it's quickly, a long time ago, it qu- it quickly made me understand and sort of cherish the opportunity to, to sit around with the tools nearby-... and just exist, and think, and dream, and play. By which I mean play guitar, play music, but just play.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Creatives and just people generally f- I think, have a lot of guilt associated with just sitting around. But, it seems to be so incredibly imperative to creation.
- JBJames Bay
It's a huge, huge part of it. It's probably 95% of the reason why it ever works, if it ever works. 95% of it is about having... not, not watching a clock, not, there not being any sort of consequence. And we c- we put, I put hundreds of consequences on myself. We all do. Um, but as soon as you do those things, the, kind of the quality starts to sort of lessen. Um, so yeah, uh, it didn't help, that experience when I was a kid-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JBJames Bay
... of my mum sort of going, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Can't-"
- SBSteven Bartlett
"Keep yourself busy."
- JBJames Bay
Yeah. "Keep... You got... Uh, you know, if you're not... You know." It was almost, "If you're not... If I don't see you kind of playing and, and, and, and getting something from the playing, then you're not spending your time. You could be helping me, you could be doing this, you could be doing that. Is there, is there a... Is there some homework you haven't done?" And yeah, there probably was like hundreds of bits of homework I hadn't done, but I was already so into trying to write a song, or get better at playing the guitar or being creative in some other way, that of course I was pushing the homework under the rug.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JBJames Bay
Um, but that... Uh, uh, unfortunately, that, that, even that small sort of pressure that I felt then has, has ended up... Has, has... Like so many... Like you say you've met so many creative people who feel that sort of guilt, it has, um, heightened the sense of guilt. So, it's a strange one to juggle. And, uh, and I find myself fighting against it, and that's, uh, that's really, uh, inconvenient (laughs) to what I'm trying to do as a passion and, and actually for a living, suddenly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What insecurities did you have at that young age? I spend a lot of time talking about all of mine, but-
- JBJames Bay
No, man.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I just wanted to ask something about your... theirs.
- JBJames Bay
Um, insecurities. I had an insecurity... So, uh, in school, in like primary school as a, as a li- a young kid, I was, um, I was a fast runner, I was good at drawing and painting. I had this, the... A selection of things that I was good at. And like, the talk in the classroom was that I was the best at running, I was one of the best at football, I was the best at drawing. And I'm not fully sure how, but that started quickly to really matter to me to the point that as far as, you know, what insecurities did I have? I, I think back about the worries that I had about, "Well, what if one day I'm not the fastest?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JBJames Bay
"And what if somebody draws something better than me?" And I hate to admit that, and I don't know why I felt those things. But, I had a, I had an ambition and a dr- and a drive that w- wanted to be really, really good at s- at these things. Um, and as a kid, yeah, I wanted to sort of be able to feel like I was the best at them.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why? Do you know why?
- 23:13 – 35:06
Becoming a musician and its learnings
- JBJames Bay
- SBSteven Bartlett
And off you go to study music-
- JBJames Bay
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in Brighton.
- JBJames Bay
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um, it's, it was, it's really a wonderful thing to hear that one of the real sort of catalyst moments in your early career was just a clip of someone, some punter in a pub recording you-
- JBJames Bay
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... singing-
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that ended up on-
- JBJames Bay
YouTube.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... YouTube.
- JBJames Bay
And, uh, I will say it was at a time when there were YouTube sensations popping into the charts, getting signed by big record labels. Very exciting. 'Cause they got 500,000 views overnight. They put the video up at 7:00 PM and by 7:00 AM it had a million views, it had two million views. That video that went online of me, it was there for six weeks or more. 25 views maybe, maybe 26 views. Um, and I wa- I didn't... I wasn't... I hadn't thought about it. I met the guy 'cause he filmed me and he said, "I'll put it online." You know, he'll do, like, a little sort of filter on it, little edit. Thanks, man. Great. I'm just glad you, you liked my song. And I didn't hear about it until this record label found it with its 25 views and they called up my manager. I had a manager at the time. Still the same manager I've got today. Called him up.... and said, "We love- we love this. We'd love to meet you, meet James. Um, can we fly you to New York?" Which was a, sort of- that's where they were based at the record label. And it was just a very whirlwind, exciting experience, just to go and meet these guys. They just wanted me to come and sit and sort of play for them, like, in the flesh. And, um, and so I did. And they went on to be the label that I sort of signed to after a second visit. And it was all very exciting, given that it feels like... You know, that was one of a million open mic nights that I was performing at, at that time. Just rolling up, putting my name down, playing three songs, moving on to the next one.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What has that taught you about knocking on doors and you never know which one's gonna open? You know what I mean? 'Cause as you say, people will look at that and go, "Oh, fucking so lucky." You know. But, um, what- what does that- what has that told you about the nature of how life happens and...
- JBJames Bay
I guess it's taught me to use the idle time. My idle time in that- in those years, was long empty evenings that I filled with finding open mic nights to hone my craft. It sounds a bit pretentious again, but it's exactly what I was doing. It's exactly what I was doing, and it's exactly what I'm doing at every gig I do today. The only difference is that there seems to be some people today who are actually there to see me, and they've done a bit of homework. They say they like my songs, and that's so flattering. But every single show I do to this day, I just wanna be a bit better. I just want to deliver a slightly more effortless, every time, more effortless, hopefully more moving and enjoyable experience for the people standing in front of me. Back then, it was 7 or 8, maybe 11 or 12 people smattered around a bar, privately trying to have a drink, probably after work, trying to catch up. And I'm in the corner barking. And they ha- they don't know who I am, and they haven't, they haven't paid to see me or anything. And, uh, I want their attention. And I don't just want their attention. I want the thing that I've written to be good enough to effortlessly turn their head. That's how it has to go. Uh, and I had a lot of time to fill with those, um, trials. It was all trials. Uh, it's all training. Um, so I did. And I remember earlier than when that thing was... when that guy filmed me in that bar. I remember years before that when, for example, I was taking couple of originals and a couple of covers to an open mic night, and people really enjoyed my delivery of the covers, which was really encouraging. Um, and then I'd do an original, and they... I- I- I'd play the verse, and they're just talking away. And I'd play the chorus, and they're still talking. Then I'd play the bridge, and a few heads would turn. And I think... I'd go home that night thinking, "The bridge has got something, but the other bits need work. Clearly, the other bits need work." 'Cause I didn't have them in the verse, and I didn't have them in the chorus. But I had them in the bridge, and that's why it was all training. And so I go home. This is when I'd moved to Brighton actually, particularly. I had a lot of idle time between lessons and the course that I was doing, and I filled it with just trying to be better, just soaking up... I was going to the record shop. This is just right before streaming sort of exploded. Uh, it wasn't like a- a thing, so I was buying records still. Um, the difference, I suppose, from my generation at that time is I put them on my computer and stick them on my MP3, and I could walk around without a stack of CDs in my pocket or in my bag. Anyway, I was soaking up as much as I possibly could. Uh, just trying to get better, trying to create a more enjoyable experience for anybody who was in front of me, 'cause that's all I love about music. And that's what I want to... that's why I want to do it, 'cause I... for some reason, I wanna be able to create that for other people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
People often overlook that part, but it seems to be, if there was a sort of a through line or a common thread between all the guests I sit here with, whether they're comedians or they're music artists, the ones that have become really successful and also really unique and in- and... yeah, unique is the right word. Really unique, is you get this, like, bit before where they were performing to no one and kinda just doing it for the love of it for themselves.
- JBJames Bay
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And it seems to be that that, in fact, that moment is the defining moment when no one's there, when there isn't the arenas and there's... That part there, that 10,000 hours part-
- JBJames Bay
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that they talk about-
- JBJames Bay
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... is the most important part.
- JBJames Bay
Uh, somehow, I think it probably is. E- everything that might follow that or that does or everything that followed that for me, has been so important. But there are moments in the very beginning for anybody, whatever they're doing, that are vital to how, to what happens next. Um, 10,000 hours is, is the right, like, description and reference. Um, and all those open mic nights, and I was busking when I was in Brighton as well, which is kind of wild. You're just walking down the street with a guitar on your shoulder, and then you stop amongst all the other people you're walking next to. And you have the balls, the confidence, somehow the courage, to start singing at people in the middle of the street. It was always terrifying until I was sort of getting into the first chorus of a song, and then I could almost sort of blend in. Um, but, but give it some to try and catch some people. Anyway, those, all of that, those times, they are vital. It's about learning about what doesn't work. It's about sometimes, you know, there's people who are, like, hellbent on talking over you, and they've every right to. They've every right to. Um, if they haven't come to see you intentionally or- or it's not a private, you know, actual sort of venue where people buy tickets to come, then they've, they've every right to. And- and it's how... It was always about how I managed in those situations. I remember going into noisy pubs that wanted to hold an open mic night at the same time, and someone plugging me into a PA saying, "Go on." And me thinking, "This place is rammed, and they're all just having the greatest night of their lives, just having a big old chat, and they're drinking their pints and all this, and I've got to sing into this." And I remember being so excited. I remember thinking, "I'm gonna get them all."I don't know that it worked every single time, but I re- I remember winning over rooms and leaving. So these weren't open mic nights, actually. I remember in between the open mic nights, there'd be some individual who'd see me and say, "Will you come and play at my pub?" Which felt like a real win.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JBJames Bay
"Will you come and play at my pub on Thursday night, on Saturday night?" Whatever it might be. Sunday night. I'd say, "Yeah, all right." And half the time they'd say, "There's 20 quid in it for you." And I'd say, "Oh, absolutely." "Play for an hour." "Sure." You could pay me nothing to play for two hours at that time and I'd have done it. I just wanted the opportunity, the stage, the microphone, the opportunity. And I remember, yeah, a couple of, like, really busy rooms full of people who had no idea who I was. And I remember you catch some eyes of people going, "Oh, here he is," you know, another guy plugging in a guitar, you know. "Let- let's all sort of speak up a bit when he sort of pipes up." I remember thinking, "I'm gonna get you."
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's interes- one of the really interesting things I was just thinking about as you were explaining that story is how the environment in which you started your career in those pubs, noisy pubs, trying to, you know-
- JBJames Bay
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... get people's attention, uh, you described it as actually changing the music. You would go home and say-
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... "Okay, the chorus held them-"
- 35:06 – 45:10
How did it change your life?
- SBSteven Bartlett
and-
- JBJames Bay
Thank you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What was that like then? That first EP goes out into the world. Does your life change at that point?
- JBJames Bay
Um, it, there was a change. It all felt too fast. I think once I, once I signed a record deal, as exciting as the initial sort of part of the ride was, everything started to move quite fast. And in hindsight, what I r- realize, I was nervous about the pace of things, but I had this huge, um ... I don't know what to call it. It's a record label, obviously. This, this, this, this huge, like, backing, this body of people who wholeheartedly believed in me and wanted to sort of throw me kind of in at the deep end, but really just sort of throw me in the ocean where it's all really going on. I'd been like on the shore training, open mic nights, little shows, solo acoustic stuff, whatever, writing, trying to get better. Staying up all night, writing, using all that idle time.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Learning to swim. (laughs)
- JBJames Bay
Learning to swim.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JBJames Bay
And then they, they basically looked at me having visited, uh, New York a couple times and played them some songs and gone, "Oh, you're ready to be in the sea. You're not, like, surfing a big wave yet, but we're gonna put you in the sea now." And I was like, "Whoa." Um, so it, it, it, it was fast, uh, but-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Within a year, you, you've got a headline, sold out UK tour.
- JBJames Bay
Yeah. There was ... And, and, you know, on the one hand, yes. On the other hand, it was rooms full of sort of 50 to 100 people, but they were all there to see me for the first time ever. They were all ... They'd all bought a ticket because somehow they'd found my music, uh, they'd found the EP. Which again, like, because of where streaming was at, it didn't go straight onto Spotify and Apple and all that stuff. It was some like SoundCloud-like thing. It wasn't even SoundCloud that it went onto where people had to go and find it. And they think they had a, they had a choice maybe to pay, pay if they wanted to.... which is kind of sweet.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Like Bandcamp days?
- JBJames Bay
Kind of, yeah. But it wasn't, (laughs) it wasn't even Bandcamp. I mean, I don't know, I wasn't there yet. But, um, so I had those songs and they, they were like, "Let's record." There was like couple of months between signing, recording that EP, and releasing it. It felt very fast. And it was exciting, but yeah, I'd been in this training mentality, where I- which I was doing kind of at my own pace. I was trying to do it all the time. I was constantly sort of training, as I say. But I didn't, I didn't appreciate there would kind of be an end to that, in a way. In another respect, I'm sort of still training. But at that time, with what was going on, it was like, "No, we're gonna step up a gear now. And there's a few more people involved, and they're gonna push you onto bigger stages, literally and metaphorically." Um, so I didn't feel fully ready for it, and I'm kind of glad. I don't think you're supposed to ever be completely ready for any of these things.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Things move even faster from then on, right? 'Cause your, your second EP comes out, Let It Go-
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... and then your album comes out in the same year. (laughs) ?
- JBJames Bay
The album was March 2015.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay, the - station.
- JBJames Bay
EP was, was, so it's the same six months.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- JBJames Bay
It was just 2014 into 2015. And, uh, Let It Go, um, had come out towards the end of the summer before, and, and, and then, and then the album in 2015. And, uh, I remember Let It Go as a song. I loved the song. I've never known really, I can't write a song and say, "That's a hit, guys." That's just not, I can't, I don't do that. Um, I've tried. I've tried. But it's not really sort of my calling to be able to do that. I write the songs, and I remember writing Hold Back The River, and everybody at the label and my managers and everyone sort of jumping for joy and thinking that they had a hit on their hands. Which was very exciting to be a part of, and I think at the time I thought, "Really? How do you know that?" And then they worked, they did their thing. They went to work, and they got that song around the world, and I got that song around the world, I suppose, as well. Um, and it kinda took off. But Let It Go was an interesting moment, because I remember doing lots of different festivals in America and all round the world. I remember a place, there's a festival called Outside Lands, which is in San Francisco or near San Francisco, and, um, I s- I, I got on stage in this sort of valley-type-shaped bit of land, uh, throughout this sort of outdoors festival, 'cause there were sort of banks of grass at the sides. Quite a big stage, and it felt like quite a lot of people, sort of, 3,000, 4,000 people. I was like, "Wow, this is exciting." And they all sang the words to Let It Go, every single word, particularly the choruses. And we filmed it as well, on, like on my phone or whatever. And it was amazing. And I came offstage and the promoter said... I hadn't, I hadn't met him. I was like one of the newer artists on the festival. He said, "That was incredible." He said, "You were in front of 20,000 people there." I was like, "No way." I said, "They were all... Did you hear? They were all singing the words." He said, "Yeah, 20,000 people singing the words." He said, "We'll have you back." I said, "Thanks," and I sort of went on my way. But, um, that was a real moment where everyone recognized that there was Hold Back The River and there was Let It Go as well, and Let It Go might be able to carry this album as well. So that was... Things moved faster again. I remember actually, (laughs) as far as things moving fast, we got on a plane after that show in San Francisco, at that festival. We flew down to LA, we crossed the airport, we got on a plane to Australia, we flew for 15 hours, we did a show in Sydney, and then we got on a plane and we flew back to LA and carried on the tour. So we went to Sydney to do a show for about... We went to Sydney for about barely 36 hours. 30 of them were on a plane. (laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where's the idle time?
- JBJames Bay
Idle time on a plane is, like, not what every-
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JBJames Bay
... what it's all sort of cracked up to be. You can't get your guitar out and start writing, so, um, I guess it's like emergency rest time, in a way-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- JBJames Bay
... to try and get your head down on a plane. Which is, as we all know, kind of tough. But, um, yeah, it... Idle time starts to sort of disappear a little bit. And it felt like... Writing a song in a hotel room on tour felt like such a heavy cliché to me, though. I was never very good at that either. I've got better at it now. But we had a lot of time in hotels, and I was crap at using that h- that idle time to, to write more songs.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What did you feel like throughout that process? You put, you know, you put the album out, uh, um, uh, in 2015, was right?
- JBJames Bay
Yeah, yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So 2015, put the album out. That is a smash hit. Um, Let It Go is one of my favorite songs.
- JBJames Bay
Oh.
- 45:10 – 49:45
Your albums and their influence
- JBJames Bay
- SBSteven Bartlett
The part of the trauma that en- changed you, what is that part?
- JBJames Bay
Hmm. Great expectations follow.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Ah.
- JBJames Bay
That's difficult. And I thought my duty was to come with something brand new again, second album, third album. And I'm, I'm having a great time. I've just put out my third album and I'm, I'm... I can't believe I even get to say that. It's g- it went in... It was number four. It's a top five album. Not everybody gots to, gets to say that about their third album, so I'm so grateful for the reaction. I really am. And yet, there's a part of me that, you know, spent such a long time promoting that first album after it came out that, you know, uh, I would like to create that exact same experience again for different music that I've made. That is easier said than done every single time. The chances of anyone getting a number one album at any time, there's only one number one spot, you know. Um, me, as a lover of so much music, with so many influences and inspirations, different artists, records, songs, I put a handful of those into... At the end of the day, I put a handful of those into my first album, what inspired it, you know. And then that created, uh, me as an artist. And I arrived, you know, The Shock of the New on my debut album, and a bunch of people around the world said, "Yeah, I'll buy that." Literally and metaphorically, "I'll buy that. I'm into that." And I represented something to them. I can't believe that. To this day, I can't believe I represented something to them that they were willing to sort of buy into and, and want to share, and, and kind of agree with, and, and feel th- the words and the, and the melodies in, in, in their way. And then another album, it's time for another album. It was about showing a different side to myself. And I appreciate now in the fullness of time with the greatest perspective, or with greater perspective, years after my second album release, that only I am in my head. Nobody else is. So, um, it was interesting who, uh, received the second album, who, who... Of all the people that got on board for the release of my first album and followed my music and me as an artist, some of them came for the second album. Some of them, I guess, kinda went, "Oh, it's not the same thing, so I'll just sort of come back when maybe it's..." I don't... I, I can't sort of speak for people. But, um, my expectation, naively, was that I could do the same thing again by s- surprising people with something they hadn't had before, because they hadn't had my debut album before. And, um, it didn't quite go the way I hoped it would go. As I say that, I don't wanna sound ungrateful because I had so many people around the world really love my second album, and I'm so grateful for those people. Um-
- SBSteven Bartlett
It peaked at number two in the album charts, right?
- JBJames Bay
Yeah, I, I can't... I really cannot complain in the slightest. And when the one above it is this... It's a soundtrack to a movie, it was The Greatest Showman, that, that just reigned supreme for so long in 2018 at the top of the charts. There was various number of other artists who didn't, unfortunately, sort of beat that soundtrack either, so they all kind of went to number two as well. But it did, it peaked at number two. People loved it, and they're still telling me that they do, and I'm... You know. There's, there's a, there's a real sort of a clash between my gratitude towards all of those, that reception, and the other part of my brain that I suppose bought into the hype of my first album and, and wanted the same frenzy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
In hindsight now, if you could go back and you could just move the order of things-
- JBJames Bay
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
You know what I'm gonna say, right? You could just move the order of things. Would you mo- maybe put, you know, Electric Light first?
- JBJames Bay
Oh, good... I don't know.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause then that would have managed the expectations, right?
- JBJames Bay
Yeah, right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The expectations is always the curse of happiness. It's always the killer of everything.
- JBJames Bay
Course.
- SBSteven Bartlett
'Cause if I told you, when you were whatever age-
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
...that your album would da- would peak at number two in the album charts, you'd be over the fucking moon.
- JBJames Bay
I would leap.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JBJames Bay
Yeah, I would leap. I'd jump for joy. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Leap that nice little Boom, boom, boom.
- JBJames Bay
Sorry, that was awful.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Yeah.
- JBJames Bay
Can we go again on that?
- SBSteven Bartlett
No.
- JBJames Bay
I would jump for joy.
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- JBJames Bay
I did not mean that. Sorry.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But would you move the order of things, honestly?
- 49:45 – 52:01
Would you change anything?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because the psychological difficulty comes from purely the fact that you have to com- almost compete with your own success, right?
- JBJames Bay
Yes, it does, but it was all my choice at the end of the day. And I- I do stand by it. I love Electric Light, and, um, it came when it came. I, I... What's interesting is, Electric Light, I'm so proud of and I adore it, every song. It was also a reaction to what I felt personally, to me, was- was, like, almost overkill on my first album. I had had enough of who I was when I was roaming around the world on the Kaos and the Calm campaign. What I represented, and the songs that I was playing. I needed to stop all of that for a minute, for two reasons. One, it was exhausting. I'm s- I keep wanting to throw this in. I was very grateful to have that experience, like beyond grateful. But I just, uh, for my soul and my mental health, I needed to creatively kinda go elsewhere. Um, uh, so, so, so I did. And I- and I also just had, like I say to you, as a- as a creative, more than one thing or one set of things inspires me to do what I do. And I wanted to celebrate that in the music I created for a second album. So I went deep on David Bowie and Blondie and Prince and LCD Soundsystem, all that list of artists and more. I love, love that music. And, uh, I don't know that that resonated in the same way with all the fans of the first album. It certainly did with some of them, and maybe it didn't so much with others. Um, I can't control any of that. The only thing I can control is what I create, and that I do. There is a, there is so much of a part of what I create that I do for myself, which I think is the same for every artist. Um, so, so I chose to do that. Uh, so you see what I'm saying? In ways it was a reaction to something I needed to do as a reaction to how my first album campaign had gone.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you-
- JBJames Bay
So I wouldn't have changed the- the things around, like, you know, the order of
- 52:01 – 1:02:15
Your mental health
- JBJames Bay
things.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When you, when you spoke about mental health there-
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
...when was your first sort of introduction to mental health?
- JBJames Bay
Good question, um, because it, of course, has become so talked about in the last-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JBJames Bay
...five years?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JBJames Bay
It's suddenly become, like, more okay than ever to speak openly about it. My first introduction to mental health.
- SBSteven Bartlett
When I ask that question, I mean, you're... I remember, at one point, thinking... So the timeline of my relationship with mental health is, people with mental health, at one point, maybe 10, 15 years ago when I was younger, I thought it meant that you were crazy. And then, as- as I experienced things myself and then there was a word for them, I understood that we all have mental health-
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
...and that we're all... None of us are too tough to experience-
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
...different mental health predicaments at times. And then going through my own journey with mental health-
- JBJames Bay
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
...that's when I was like, "Ah, okay, I understand now."
- JBJames Bay
As a kid, I thought it meant someone was unhappy and you couldn't help them, depressed and- and- and unable to be helped. Um, and as I grew up, I remember struggling with... Uh, you know, as a teenager, to be male and talk about your feelings wasn't the f- should never be the sort of first choice. I- I remember feeling like it was, uh, it was more about, "Can you suck it up, though?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is that your dad talking?
- JBJames Bay
(sighs) My dad has been on his, uh, been on his own journey with mental health pr- previous to me even being born. He- he had some struggles, and he did, he did talk to some professionals about it, and I really respect that. So actually, it wasn't my dad talking. Um, it's funny though. He comes from those kind of attitudes. Both my parents come from those kind of attitudes. You know, it's that stiff-upper-lip thing again, that kinda brush it all under the rug thing again. I come from that. You know, difficult things, we don't talk about them then, or we shout about them. No in between. And I didn't want the chaos of the shouting as a kid and as a teenager. I never wanted that. It was always too much to deal with. So I joined the sort of brush it under the rug brigade. Um, and so it took me until I was into my 20s. It took me until I was touring extensively and relentlessly, so really only five, six, maybe seven years ago, for me to sort of finally understand that life can take a toll on people when it's, when it, when it's relentless. When work is relentless or when anything in life is sort of relentless and weighing down or- or bearing heavy, it can take a toll. And it's okay to talk about that to try and relieve some pressure and some strain and some stress. That came as a result of various individuals that I was touring with or that I knew doing their own touring needing to stop for a bit-... maybe speak to a therapist to help them, and that it was okay. So it only came in the last sort of s- few years for me.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Reading back through your story, 2019 was a bit of a mixed year. That's when you did the tour with, uh, Ed Sheeran. And I- I- I was reading about almost this conflict that you're undergoing, which is, "I need to show up and perform and be who I, you know, who I have this responsibility to be," but also this other conflict of, like, you just weren't feeling good.
- JBJames Bay
Yeah. Uh, I sort of have encountered various sort of people, fans, pe- or, or, or not, or people I work with or, or people interviewing me or whatever, who... And this is ultimately, like, really quite flattering. They think I'm, you know... I, I don't know how to put it other than, like, bigger than I feel I am as an artist. I don't know if I agree with them. And so I felt like an imposter syndrome, essentially, in that time. Uh, on the one hand, I'm being, uh, you know... It's really disproportionate and, and, and, and probably unhealthy when I think, "Okay, Ed Sheeran has invited me to open for him in football stadiums around Europe for three months. There's 80,000 people every night. Wow." And the bit I hate to admit and I'm anxious to confess is that there's a part, there's a voice in my head saying, "Why aren't you doing the stadiums, you..." I call myself all sorts of names. "Why isn't it your show? Come on." I feel ridiculous saying that. I also just feel... It's a little embarrassing because I'm doing good. And I don't wanna sort of get ahead of my station or I don't wanna seem, like, big-headed, but I tell you, I am very ambitious and driven. Everybody is. I understand that, and I am in my way. And so I do want those kind of, uh, rewards of selling out such an enormous venue, and so many and so often, in the way that s- he, he... Ed's an example. And, and also I will say that, Lenno, I, I... He, he was kind enough to have me on that tour as the main support act who would go on right before him. There was th- three of us most of the time, uh, you know, opener, second opener, me, the third opener, and then him. And it, it, it was pretty wonderful and exciting to find that in, in almost every stadium it was, it was a third of that crowd, which rounds out at approximately 20,000 or 30,000 people, singing all the words to my songs. Which was just... A- again, I was very thankful in that moment that he brought me in front of such big crowds because, um, it was exciting to see that I... my music was still reaching, and it, it stopped my ambitions and my drive feeling silly.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The bit, the bit I sh- I was a little bit confused about there is, you're saying you felt like an imposter in those moments. But the voice is saying... So I would expect the voice in your head to be saying, "Why are you here?" But the voice in your head is saying, "Why aren't you at the top of the bill?"
- JBJames Bay
"Why isn't it your show? Why don't you have your own stadium show?" Or, you know, even a, you know, arena show, whatever it may be. "Why are your crowds not bigger yet, James?"
- SBSteven Bartlett
Gosh, that's such an insidious thought, isn't it? Because if you're James Bay big and you still have that voice whispering about that, fuck me.
- JBJames Bay
Yeah, it's pretty fucking intense. And I appreciate that, like, it's probably a bit cruel.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Cruel is a good word.
- JBJames Bay
It's just a... It's a standard issue, I suppose, it's a sort of s... Or sorry, it's a standards issue. It's I, I... You know, I'm, I'm holding myself to a standard that might be unrealistic, but then I'm so driven and, uh, I f- or I feel so driven and ambitious to achieve those kinds of things that I can't shake that voice.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Where's that voice coming from?
- JBJames Bay
Deep inside (laughs) . Um, deep inside because it's, it's, it's s- sort of a voice I recognize from various chapters of my life. Uh, it's... On the one hand, I was, I was too sort of timid and uninterested in, in drinking and partying as a teenager to sort of go out and get amongst it. On the other hand, that voice was talking to me back then, saying, "Don't waste your time doing that, James. Get better at songwriting. Get better at singing. Get better at playing guitar. Get to the point where it's, it's, you know, you're able to confidently play well and, and make it look effortless. Get to that point. And then, you know, then maybe we can have a night off."
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, you got to that point. And that, and you-
- 1:02:15 – 1:15:26
The consequences and symptoms of your inner voice
- JBJames Bay
- SBSteven Bartlett
All of these voices, they have, they have adverse consequences. Some of those consequences are positive, in the light of the world. They turn into drive and motivation or perfectionism-
- JBJames Bay
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... which end up producing really wonderful art. Obviously, some of the consequences of those voices can be very, um, personally, as it relates to your happiness, detrimental.
- JBJames Bay
Right.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Talk to me first about, 'cause I wanna talk about the positives-
- JBJames Bay
Mm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... that those voices have, you know-
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... manifestation on that side. But talk to me about the, the, the negative detrimental impact of being, having those voices.
- JBJames Bay
The longer I sort of exist with these voices, the, the, the, the, the negative ones, um, the more they can have an effect unfortunately, a negative effect. The more that they can sort of, um, they can stop me going out into the world and doing certain things, you know. The more they can get into my head and sort of inhibit my ability to sort of speak to you in a free-flowing way, for example. Or, um, go to a party I've been invited to by an artist I might know or by a, by somebody whose work I might admire. I, I, I'm being sort of hypothetical in that respect, but it could very much sort of be a, that could be a reality. And the benefits of coming and speaking to you, and the benefits of going to some party or whatever, are just that those are the things that color life. And that's, that's just a good thing. Um, but sometimes the voices get so loud that, that, that I don't go and do these things. And I, and, and I, my life remains kind of gray, uh, just personally and privately. And that's not helpful till when I get that idle time back in the moments that I do. Because all the things that color life feed wonderfully in my, most of my experience into that idle time, whether I do create something or not. Um, so they, they are an obstacle, they are a barrier, those, those negative voices. And I'm trying to grow and get better at sort of managing them and dealing with them, and understanding that no voices, no narratives kind of go away entirely happy or sad. They, they don't. You know, 2019 was a difficult year, and I've learned since then, through various types of therapy, one of those is songwriting for me, another one is typical sort of therapy as we know it, speaking to somebody. I've, I've, I've, I've learned a little bit more about sort of being able to quiet the, the negative voices or control them a little bit. Um, you can never do any one of these things 100%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- JBJames Bay
I'm, I'm learning. Um, and there's a part of my mind that wants 100%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- JBJames Bay
Here, there, everywhere. I want 100% be the headliner at this thing. I want 100% be able to stop those voices so they never come back. And I'm just still sort of trying to learn that there's no 100% anything anywhere.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm.
- JBJames Bay
Everything is a f- is a, is a gentle sort of balance.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm. That's a really liberating thought though, because there are so many people that are still struggling with things after many decades, and that will beat themselves up because it's still there.
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, and I actually had this conversation this week, this weekend? I think this weekend. Yeah, it was on Saturday morning with my girlfriend, where I said one of the things I've come to learn from doing this podcast, and just my own sort of early traumas, is that we shouldn't hold ourself to the standard of completely ridding ourselves of our trauma or insecurities. It's really about diminishing the power they have over you to the point that your decision-making can be made through another set of stories.
- JBJames Bay
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So like with relationships-
- JBJames Bay
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... I have a lot of traumas, so I still have those, and I'm still, I still think to some degree a relationship is prison. Maybe 40% now. It's still there, but the 60% is like, "You're being an idiot. Fucking get on with it." (laughs)
- JBJames Bay
And it's 60 rather than-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, it's 60, you know-
- JBJames Bay
... as a, as a gentle sort of balance.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm. That's a really liberating thought though, because there's so many people that are still struggling with things after many decades, and that will beat themselves up because it's still there.
- JBJames Bay
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, and I actually had this conversation this week, this weekend? I think this weekend. Yeah, it was on Saturday morning with my girlfriend, where I said one of the things I've come to learn from doing this podcast and just my own sort of early traumas is that we shouldn't hold ourself to the standard of completely ridding ourselves of our trauma or insecurities. It's really about diminishing the power they have over you to the point that your decision-making can be made through another set of stories.
- 1:15:26 – 1:22:54
The cost of fame
- JBJames Bay
people.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is there this weird paradox of the thing you're chasing in terms of like, you know, that peak again? You talked to, about this like big moment that you were, you know, you stood there and you watched this young artist who you know is gonna through it.
- JBJames Bay
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
But at the same time knowing that there comes a real cost with that. That, 'cause I sometimes when I speak to musicians, it's, I have that a lot where they're like, I think I'm thinking of Craig David, who I think he had his one, number one album at 18.
- JBJames Bay
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Y- you know, quite honestly says, "You know, I'm, I'm looking for that moment again. But it was also pretty much the worst moment of my life." (laughs)
- JBJames Bay
(laughs)
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you think-
- JBJames Bay
And it's funny, man. Yeah, and it does come back to that ch- when I referenced trauma and Maggie's concert, and Sam, what he was saying, and, um, it's funny how that, that, that works. But we see there are some real one in a millioners who might have two, three, four consecutive peaks. Um, and, oh, everybody else looks at that. And even the people who go through that look at it as like, but it, something could be better.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- JBJames Bay
It's funny, I, like, I can't explain that. And I suffer from it like so many people do. Um, but if nothing else, it's because I really care about and love what I do, and I really wanna be in it. I really wanna be kind of on the pitch. It's, I- I've, I've, I've slipped into a football analogy.
Episode duration: 1:45:02
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